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Your "evidence" for leaving the plaque as is would be pertinent if the topic was Jim Terry , Buffalo rifles , etc.

It's not.

The fact that a certain thing is done under one set of circumstances doesn't make it more probable under a totally different set of circumstances.

For instance ;How likely is it that the Captain could call to mind in a stressful situation [assuming he knew] the amount of holdover required for a 30 06 at the extreme distances on the plaque.?

How likely is it that he doped the wind exactly right two out of three shots?

The Captain's capabilities with a rifle were probably in line with mine and a host of other 'fire members.

Killing two of the enemy with three shots at around 200 yards would not be remarkable if they would be still and not shoot back.

I doubt that was the situation.


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I doubt the ranges were wrong. An artillery unit could easily survey the distances. Shots of two hundred yards would have hardly been worth remarking about and would have been far more likely to have been engaged by the whole outfit, a machine gun, or a mortar than a lone rifleman.

The only thing I find a little dubious is calling the enemy KIA "snipers". I can see a situation where the generals were visiting the line and someone may have remarked about the CPT being a fine shot and his unusual rifle that he brought from home. Then coincidentally and fortuitously, some enemy became visible at those extreme ranges and one of the generals said something like "Captain, why don't you have a go at some of those guys with that fancy rifle of your."

Last edited by Cossatotjoe_redux; 09/22/11.
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"It's not always luck, trust me."

In this particularly WILD flight of ballistic fantasy (the two shots @ 1900 + with an' '06 Sporter)

LUCK would have to factor in.........,

e.g. VERY bad luck on the part of the two Norks.

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The silver plate inlaid in the stock reads:

9 December 52 at Yok Kok Chon Korea with
MS Rifle 16333 and Bnl Scope 70579
Capt. F. T. Aylward fired 3 rounds, killed 2 snipers at
ranges surveyed at 1938 and 1942 yards.
Observed by
E. W. Ridings Maj. Gen. CG3 US Inf. Div.
J. F. Franklin Jr. Col. C of S,
H. Barber Lt. Col. Div. Engr.
Kim Hak Yang Lt. Col. Inf. Army of ROK.

So , FOUR[counting the Korean]high ranking officers don't know what an enemy sniper is?



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Maybe not as much a flight of ballistic fancy as one would imagine. There were probably several 1919 machine guns on the line firing 30-06 with tracers mixed in every fifth round. A guy standing out there and watching those tracers arc over day after day at targets on distant hillsides would have a FAR greater appreciation of how high to aim and would be able to make a FAR more educated guess of where to aim than your average guy.

In the later stages, Korea was like WW I. Guys in trenches looking over the same terrain day after day.

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So , FOUR[counting the Korean]high ranking officers don't know what an enemy sniper is?


Nope, just a little artistic license as a couple of guys with rifles became "snipers".

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If the ranges as stated are correct and the shots were witnessed as stated , this event would not just now be coming to light.

Argue with that statement.


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Just for the record , your military experience is............?


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Originally Posted by sharpsguy
Leave the plaque alone. To change it would debase a significant artifact. I frankly can easily believe that the shots were made at the distances stated.

Some of you have no frame of reference for what is possible, even doable on a regular basis with a good rifle at long range by a man who knows how to use it. Here is a case in point. As has already been pointed out, Jim Terry went 5 out of 6 on a hostile target at 1538 yards with a 45-110 Sharps a while back. A couple of you had trouble believing or accepting that, thinking it was luck.

Here is your reality check. I know Jim Terry, have known him for years, and have competed with him many times. Yes, he hit the hostile 5/6. But there were several other shooters at that match that went four out of six, and didn't win. While Jimbo is one of the better shots at that game, there are a lot of other guys that did not find what he did to be astounding. They do the same thing on a regular basis.

You may be surprised to find out that there is an annual match held on the Wasserburger Ranch outside of Lusk, Wyoming where the targets are set at a surveyed mile from the firing line. The match is shot with buffalo rifles, mainly Sharps, using IRON SIGHTS. Jim Terry and a number of other guys not only shoot there, they regularly shoot and hit at distances that many of you can't comprehend.

My hunting rifle is a Sharps, equipped with open iron sights. No scope. I PRACTICE on a regular basis by shooting gallon milk jugs filled with water at 400 and 500 yards several times a week. A man that truly knows his rifle and knows how to use it can successfully engage targets at ranges others do not believe, and even after they see it they will call it a lucky shot. It's not always luck, trust me.


I always say, fear the man with one rifle.


Originally Posted by BrentD

I would not buy something that runs on any kind of primer given the possibility of primer shortages and even regulations. In fact, why not buy a flintlock? Really. Rocks aren't going away anytime soon.
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With guys like Roy Dunlap, Wm. Brophy, Col. Whelen, Elmer, and all the rest around and very actively writing,... you can be DAMNED sure one of them would have heard about this .

GTC



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Originally Posted by derby_dude
WOW!!!! That's one fancy sniper rifle. Thanks for sharing.


Indeed, nice engraving.


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Originally Posted by curdog4570
Just for the record , your military experience is............?


CPT FA, MLRS.


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Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe_redux
I doubt the ranges were wrong. An artillery unit could easily survey the distances. Shots of two hundred yards would have hardly been worth remarking about and would have been far more likely to have been engaged by the whole outfit, a machine gun, or a mortar than a lone rifleman.

The only thing I find a little dubious is calling the enemy KIA "snipers". I can see a situation where the generals were visiting the line and someone may have remarked about the CPT being a fine shot and his unusual rifle that he brought from home. Then coincidentally and fortuitously, some enemy became visible at those extreme ranges and one of the generals said something like "Captain, why you have a go at some of those guys with that fancy rifle of your."


Remember, snipers have been looked at as assasins within armys for many, many years.
Not "sporting " or fighting in a manly, brave way.
So to call the KIA "snipers" meant it was ok, sniper vs sniper.
Not this sniper vs officer or fighting man.


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Originally Posted by Cossatotjoe_redux
Maybe not as much a flight of ballistic fancy as one would imagine. There were probably several 1919 machine guns on the line firing 30-06 with tracers mixed in every fifth round. A guy standing out there and watching those tracers arc over day after day at targets on distant hillsides would have a FAR greater appreciation of how high to aim and would be able to make a FAR more educated guess of where to aim than your average guy.

In the later stages, Korea was like WW I. Guys in trenches looking over the same terrain day after day.


So I guess , in your scenario ,both sides agree to "timeout" and the bodies of the two enemy soldiers are left in place while the distances are surveyed?


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No, more likely there was a landmark of a rock or a destroyed piece of equipment or something like that used later. Or, perhaps, the rotting corpses were left there.

It could even be that the CPT had been taking long range pot shots for weeks at a rock or burned out tank or something out there and those two guys had the misfortune of showing up next to it.

One more thing first thing done in any position was to lay out fields of fire, set up aiming stakes, and register the mortars and the like. Ranges were pretty well known and it may be that that those North Koreans were next to something that had already registered and therefore, the CPT would have known the range pretty close before making the shot.

Not to mention he probably had a topo map and and a protracter and would have been able to estimate the range very closely before making the shot.

In fact, the hardest thing for me to believe about the whole incident is not the range, but the fact that two enemy would be in the open to get shot. Both sides learned to stay down pretty quick and not show anything as that anybody out in the open would bring in artillery. Americans have always been notorious for firing a whole battery at one or two poor saps caught out in the open. So, the only thing I find hard to believe is that two poor saps would have been caught out in the open. They must have been replacements.

Last edited by Cossatotjoe_redux; 09/22/11.
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I'm not going to read the whole thread again, so maybe this has been mentioned. MG Ridings was the CG in December of 52. He became CG in May of 53 until October of 53.

Since it was winter, it is unlikely that they simply misremembered the months because that would be a difficult mistake to make. More likely that Ridings was there (if it happened) but he was Deputy CG at that point and later when the plaque was made, the mistake was made in calling him CG.

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And they were able to differentiate between 1938 and 1942 yards using a nearby object as a reference?

To inject a little levity into the thread:

We had a new 2nd Lt. who joined our outfit in Okinawa [3rd 155 Howitzer Battery-attached to 12th Marine Reg.]in 1961.During our first training exercise that included him , he watched as the aiming stakes were put out.

He asked Buck Sgt.[we still had 'em back then , a Sgt E4]Lacey ;"How do you see them at night?"

Lacey never missed a beat;"At night , we take a fix on the stars."

"OH, I should have thought of that",replied the Lt!

Now, don't forget to answer my question!grin


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And they were able to differentiate between 1938 and 1942 yards using a nearby object as a reference?


Sure, you survey one and then go, "That looks about like five yards."

The bigger problem is that Riding wasn't CG of 3rd ID in December of 52 and he wasn't deputy either. He was the Deputy CG of 31st division at that point.

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BS nothing but BS

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Originally Posted by Calhoun
The engraving lists the yards they were killed at, not the miles. I don't think they gave the engraver instructions to engrave 193.8 yards, it was intentionally 1938. You may not believe it, but that's what it's meant to be.


[Linked Image]


Where does it say that that was the rifle that made the shoot. Could it be the rifle was purchased after the fact and presented to the Capt to commemorate the Shots. I don't remember ever hearing of the military buying high dollar custom German Firearms for military issue. At that point in time the army issued either highly modified Springfield or Remington 30/06s for sniper work. That in the fact that the scope mounted and the brass placard on the rifle leads me to believe the rifle was a presentation rifle not an actual Sniper Rifle.

Even as a presentation rifle it still has significant historical value in it's self.


de 73's Archie - W7ACT

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