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#6177333 - 02/15/12 Gas piston vs. gas impingement
Reloder28 Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/09/06
Posts: 9732
Loc: Deer Park, Tx
Can ya'll explain the pro's & con's of these two action types?
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#6177400 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: Reloder28]
interthem Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 1297
piston runs cleaner and cooler

impingement works fine for 99% of us and is cheaper. I own/have owned 223, 260, 308, and 300 SAUM ARs. All were impingement, never ever malfuctioned or were cleaned very often. None were full auto, burst mode, or ripped off 20-100 rounds as fast as I could pull the trigger.

The AK 47 uses a gas tube system. What is the most reliable military semi-auto battle rifle ?

Gas tube is "tactical cool" so it must be better, but the tubes need to be cleaned too.

With the exception of the cabon fiber 223s, (impingement) they are all too heavy, good for killing people and questionable (compared to alternatives) as a hunting rifle.

4.5 pound 223 with lexan magazine, w/o scope, light & laser. Shoots minute of raghead out to 300. That's all it is for.


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Hey NSAQAM, Larry is very "IN", LOL
You also dishonor the 28th division by using the unit patch as an insult.
As for the liar, welcher Bricktop, his day is fast approaching.
Coward trolls won't accept PMs.
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#6177414 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: interthem]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38277
Loc: La Grange, TX
When did you have to clean a gas tube? I"m totally flabbergasted at that? I"ve run so many barrels through AR uppers and have only changed one tube due to wear on the end where it seals into the carrier group. At least read my comment on changing barrels to say that I"ve had at least up to 6-7 barrels on some of my uppers so far.... and thats a life span of anywhere from 3500 or so to over 12K rounds on one barrel.

Where did you read that gas tubes are tactical cool and WTF is tactical cool anyway really? Gas tubes are how it was designed and have worked for so long without flaws are the reason they are around vs piston.

A buddy just bought a piston gun. Just like I thought, so far its reliable, even though its a ruger, but its accuracy so far just ain't what a GOOD AR is capable of.

Bottom line for me, I trust my life to non piston guns.
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#6177512 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: rost495]
jimmyp Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 12149
Loc: Georgia
Isn't Interthem Oldman's newest reincarnation? This place is going to the dogs again. Maybe Rick will ban him again soon.

I have been shooting DI guns since 1978 not once in over 30 years has one failed to fire or perform as expected. I have fired one for well over 700 rounds without it being cleaned.
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#6177658 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: jimmyp]
FTR_Shooter Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/31/09
Posts: 1899
Loc: The Lone Star State
Oh my gawd, I have never ever cleaned the gas tube on my ARs! Does that mean I'm going to have issues with them?

One needs to also remember that piston designs are all different and proprietary, and so are the bolt carriers for these piston guns. Going piston means you kiss good bye to two things: raw accuracy and parts interchangability. If these two things are not a concern for you, then a piston may well suit your needs.

Oh and there is the problem of carrier tilt in piston ARs. So maybe three things.

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#6177718 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: rost495]
Reloder28 Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/09/06
Posts: 9732
Loc: Deer Park, Tx
Originally Posted By: rost495
Bottom line for me, I trust my life to non piston guns.


Because they have inherent flaws or you just have not owned any? I am a novice trying to determine if I even want to own a black gun. I have been looking at the IWRC R.E.P.R.. It's a 308 piston gun.

I have fired several AR's of the impingement design and they were incredibly accurate at 100 yards, open sighted, even with me behind them.
_________________________
"So Texas, you've got cowboy boots, Stetsons, horses, & ribs!.....& music. I mean, what more could you ask for?!"
Eric Clapton

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#6177918 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: Reloder28]
GunGeek Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 18841
Loc: NW Nevada
Originally Posted By: Reloder28
Originally Posted By: rost495
Bottom line for me, I trust my life to non piston guns.


Because they have inherent flaws or you just have not owned any? I am a novice trying to determine if I even want to own a black gun. I have been looking at the IWRC R.E.P.R.. It's a 308 piston gun.

I have fired several AR's of the impingement design and they were incredibly accurate at 100 yards, open sighted, even with me behind them.

Consider the fact that while “technically” on paper, the gas piston designs “should” be better, they are NOT proven in military service. Any student of military arms can tell you that most every military rifle “should” have worked right off the bat, but most every major military rifle ever made has had issues once they were pressed into military service; issues no one foresaw before military service. And those issues are almost always NOT issues of design, but of materials and manufacture. There have been oodles of changes in materials and manufacturing techniques to the M16 series rifles, but almost no overall design changes (functionally). The M14 had some significant heat treating and metallurgical issues. Same as the FAL. The M1 Garand had minor design related issues that became serious functioning issues. The G3 had several teething problems. Yet all of these rifles went on to have extremely distinguished service careers.

So while people may be oh-so proud of their gas piston AR’s, consider two things:

The AR was NOT designed for a piston system. Any piston system AR is a work-around. Consider just one little thing, the gas piston rod pushes against an area that was never intended to drive the bolt. The AR bolt was DESIGNED to be propelled from within, not a-top of.
No gas piston AR has significant in the field time. The H&K 416 has had some limited time in the field with special ops. But that’s limited time, and special ops. To me it’s not proven until it’s years in the field, in the hands of poorly trained grunts.
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#6178073 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: Reloder28]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38277
Loc: La Grange, TX
Originally Posted By: Reloder28
Originally Posted By: rost495
Bottom line for me, I trust my life to non piston guns.


Because they have inherent flaws or you just have not owned any? I am a novice trying to determine if I even want to own a black gun. I have been looking at the IWRC R.E.P.R.. It's a 308 piston gun.

I have fired several AR's of the impingement design and they were incredibly accurate at 100 yards, open sighted, even with me behind them.


I don't have piston guns because its a fix to a non existant problem. I don't buy into crap like that.

As to accuracy, it may well be that my demands of an AR accuracy wise could well be more than the average folks, but I have yet to see anyone that has a piston AR get .5 or less MOA out of it at distance. 100 yards is not distance.

I can generallly shoot groups in the 1/2- 5/8 inch range with a non piston AR off bags and irons at 100 yards. Or with a sling from prone.

If you want piston, then go for it. But there is no need. And as noted, the AR was never designed as a piston platform so only time will tell if it works out in the platform.

I'd make the decision if you even want an AR first, then decide which one and what parts based on the use. If you aren't sure you want one yet, then you are way ahead of yourself starting to differentiate IMHO.

And there are many reasons to have and not to have.... and just because is good enough for me.
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May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#6178082 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: Reloder28]
jimmyp Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 12149
Loc: Georgia
Originally Posted By: Reloder28
Originally Posted By: rost495
Bottom line for me, I trust my life to non piston guns.


Because they have inherent flaws or you just have not owned any? I am a novice trying to determine if I even want to own a black gun. I have been looking at the IWRC R.E.P.R.. It's a 308 piston gun.

I have fired several AR's of the impingement design and they were incredibly accurate at 100 yards, open sighted, even with me behind them.


Just go buy a cheap $1000 Colt 6920 in 5.56, 1000 rounds of XM193, 5 Pmags, and go shoot it all, then clean your rifle. This will teach you something and at the same time you will have a worthwhile gun in your possession that you can sell for near what you paid for it if you dont want it. Or you can just go visit different websites until you get the answer you want to hear based on an internet experts advice who hasn't pulled a trigger on any of his shiny new black rifles in 5 years. Those pictures of those shiny black rifles with every optic and accessory on them known to man just make me sad about my poor outfits.


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#6178140 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: Reloder28]
Mannlicher Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/08/03
Posts: 49069
Loc: N. Central Florida, and Miami
Originally Posted By: Reloder28
Can ya'll explain the pro's & con's of these two action types?


the pros of direct impingment systems, is that they work, and work well.

The cons of pistons systems is that they are expensive, and really add nothing to the accuracy or reliability of the DI system.
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#6178178 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: jimmyp]
TWR Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 11/22/06
Posts: 5777
If I was going 308 AR, the only one I would look at is the LMT 308. Yes, I'm passing on dpms, rr, Armalite and even KAC.

As for a piston AR, no way. I'm one of those who's ran a couple of AR's to a thousand rounds without cleaning just to see. I did clean my tactical cool gas tube with every pull of the trigger... wink DI for me.

But my 308 is and will probably always be a bolt gun. Though I did try an AR-10 for a spell.
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#6178269 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: Mannlicher]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38277
Loc: La Grange, TX
Originally Posted By: Mannlicher
Originally Posted By: Reloder28
Can ya'll explain the pro's & con's of these two action types?


the pros of direct impingment systems, is that they work, and work well.

The cons of pistons systems is that they are expensive, and really add nothing to the accuracy or reliability of the DI system.


Sam, damn well put.
_________________________
May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#6178273 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: TWR]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38277
Loc: La Grange, TX
Originally Posted By: TWR
If I was going 308 AR, the only one I would look at is the LMT 308. Yes, I'm passing on dpms, rr, Armalite and even KAC.

As for a piston AR, no way. I'm one of those who's ran a couple of AR's to a thousand rounds without cleaning just to see. I did clean my tactical cool gas tube with every pull of the trigger... wink DI for me.

But my 308 is and will probably always be a bolt gun. Though I did try an AR-10 for a spell.


TWR.. man I really hope to run into you and DJ and a few others some day if time allows... interesting how alike minds think at times... I'm there with you on the bolt/308 mostly....
_________________________
May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#6178289 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: rost495]
68injunhed Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 752
Loc: SE Kansas
IMO piston driven AR's are an answer looking for a problem.


Edited by 68injunhed (02/15/12)

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#6178342 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: FTR_Shooter]
interthem Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 1297
I guess Brownells is selling that special kit to clean piston ARs (including the tube) just because all their customers are fools.
_________________________
Hey NSAQAM, Larry is very "IN", LOL
You also dishonor the 28th division by using the unit patch as an insult.
As for the liar, welcher Bricktop, his day is fast approaching.
Coward trolls won't accept PMs.
How's the phantom "campfire" coming ?

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#6178364 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: interthem]
eh76 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 52674
Loc: North of Liberalism in Wyoming
Originally Posted By: interthem
good for killing people and questionable (compared to alternatives) as a hunting rifle.

4.5 pound 223 with lexan magazine, w/o scope, light & laser. Shoots minute of raghead out to 300. That's all it is for.







Hey mall ninja! good google fu pics! Bold statement...where is your proof? Oh I see just your inane BS again....

Originally Posted By: interthem
I guess Brownells is selling that special kit to clean piston ARs (including the tube) just because all their customers are fools.


Only one fool here.....YOU!
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Liberalism is a mental disorder that leads to social disease.

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#6178376 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: interthem]
djpaintless Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/27/04
Posts: 6653
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Two of the outstanding qualities of AR's are Accuracy and Parts interchangability. Piston AR's reduce both while increasing cost.

I've had both and now in AR-15's I only have DI's. For a first AR-15 I think the recommendation for a Colt 6920 or 6940 is solid advice. Later on for target models etc. you'll start building your own............dj
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#6178542 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: Reloder28]
JohnBurns Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 2749
Loc: Wyoming
Originally Posted By: Reloder28
Can ya'll explain the pro's & con's of these two action types?


I went through this 3 years ago when I decided to upgrade my using AR-15s from run of the mill factory Bushmasters.

The Bushmasters were OK but I wanted to upgrade the ergonomics, reliability and accuracy.

I called a friend that earns his living teaching Tier 1 SMUs how to shoot. The unit that developed and first carried the HK 416 piston gun is one of his major clients.

He told me to skip the piston guns and stay with the standard Stoner gas system.

In the world of fighting ARs it is pretty hard to find a reputable instructor with SMU experience on the piston AR that would choose one for his own use over a good DI gun.

If you are also intending to use your AR for hunting then the choice seems even clearer as the piston adds weight and decreases accuracy.

Learn to properly lube the DI AR and get one made with quality components and it will be as reliable as the ammo and mags you feed it. A piston won’t fix bad mags or ammo.
_________________________
John Burns


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#6178568 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: JohnBurns]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38277
Loc: La Grange, TX
When I was involved in SMU training as volunteers a number of years ago, the HK was new also...

And none of us were overly impressed at all.

As I"ve noted before, one top level Marine shooter friend of mine is in love with the HK though over his DI guns. But beyond him, I find no one in the know that is in love with piston ARs.

Well I do " Know" some that profess to be here on the website but I wouldn't trust their input if it was the last in the world.
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May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#6178645 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: rost495]
jimmyp Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 12149
Loc: Georgia
Hi Rick is this guy OLDMAN??? Here is a PM that he sent to me.

No Jimmy, it is just one of almost 100 members from our gun club that are now members here. We have a list of all the user names and passwords posted on the clubhouse cork board as well as the user name and password for the image hosting site we all use. Anyone can use anyone. There have been 100s of posts the trolls don't even know happened so they are now attacking at random anyone they think might be one of us. So far they are batting ZERO, but are pizzing off a lot of nice folks.

The trolls have lost the war and just BTW was there anything offensive, insulting or incorrect in the posting ?
Any death threats as we have received ? Guttersnipe language as the trolls use all the time ?

Perhaps Bin has gotten the word from his sponsors and other members, with whom we spent $10,000.00+ in 2011, that we, not the trolls, are an asset to the site.

Stop being a lemming, think for yourself rather than a blind follower of a dozen or so hateful, cowardly, little "men" who contribute nothing to the site. Examine the post on its merits. If you have an adult opinion or constructive criticism based on facts we would all love to hear it.

Our best from Wyoming, Roger
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#6178666 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: jimmyp]
eh76 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 52674
Loc: North of Liberalism in Wyoming
jimmyp,

yes

roger=larry=interthem=oldman1942=bosslady= .......
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Liberalism is a mental disorder that leads to social disease.

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#6178701 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: eh76]
jimmyp Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 12149
Loc: Georgia
Thanks, just asked Rick the same thing. Would not have done it without interthem's PM that I posted above.
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#6179238 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: jimmyp]
interthem Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 1297
adios Jimmie boy, you and EH are now joined.


Edited by interthem (02/15/12)

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#6179572 - 02/15/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: interthem]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38277
Loc: La Grange, TX
Good job JimmmyP !!
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May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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