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OP
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I think everyone knows how tough wild boar hide is and Winchester has come up with a new .223 and .308 bullet to deal with just that.Thick hide and bone...If a Berger VLD fails in an Elk shoulder would that mean a Barnes or Nosler would also?I don't think so. As someone said earlier..Is a new .223 bullet of today equal to the old bullets in a .243..Yup... With todays bullets, I see no reason if used accordingly that the .223 which tested equal in penetration on Deer by an NRA contractor, to the .243 and 30-30 in penetration, cannot cleanly kill Elk. Why is it some say the .243 is an Elk killin' machine but the .224 isn't with only .019 difference in unexpanded diameter with them penetrating equally. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/jaycocreek/RazorBackXT.jpg) Jayco
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Joined: Feb 2012
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Campfire Regular
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LOL "wild" boar arent that tough, most people just dont understand their anatomy or make poor shots. Despite what you've read on the internet, there are no bulletproof hogs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm-QM1nxjPkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m2vaJCBQTsLooks like the 30-30 packs a bit more power, and in case of using a barnes bullet probably expands to a much larger diameter than a .223 would. Yes i've seen what a barnes tsx .223 bullet will do when used on deer, it works and expands nicely but nowhere near what a .30cal would expand to. Going off your signature, you're just stirring the pot with your "why not a .223 for elk?". If you want to use it, and its legal go for it.
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Joined: Jun 2001
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Campfire Tracker
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If the .243 is an Elk killing machine with 95 grain bullets,why wouldn't the .223 with 60-62 grain Nosler and Barnes not be also?
62 grain .223 Federal Fusions penetrate 15" in ballistic gel and I would expect the Nosler and Barnes to go farther.
So why not the .223 for Elk or is the .243 the lowest caliber lethal to Elk without a head shot?
Jayco And there's still another month of winter.....
I'd rather be a free man in my grave, than living as a puppet or a slave....
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Joined: Jun 2006
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,103 Likes: 6 |
Why is it some say the .243 is an Elk killin' machine but the .224 isn't with only .019 difference in unexpanded diameter with them penetrating equally.
Jayco Q: Why is it that some say the .338 is the ultimate elk round, but the .308 isn't with only .030 difference in unexpanded diameter with them penetrating equally? A: Because Craig Boddington didn't write it in a book.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Joined: Dec 2011
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Elk are not bullet proof neither. But like hogs, can be coated in mud and sport heavy bones within them self's, and live in the thickest patch of brush you can find. A perfect storm for bullet problems with high velocity, hard angled shots. I tend to hunt where animals live, not from the next drainage over, with match hollow point bullets and while getting everything on video. I use bullets more suited to my mode of hunting. I have sniped a few from ridge top to ridge top, It just not how I choose to hunt.  Yep, any .22 centerfire will kill elk. Just gotta point'em in the right direction. Just like anything elts 
happiness is elbow deep in elk guts.
NRA life member
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I shouldn't really talk. This year i'm using a flintlock and round ball for muley's and elk. I understand it's limits though, and will only take close perfect shots. I may never get those shots, but i'll have fun trying.  You then understand my contention RE the 223. Thats all. I'm not so foolish to say a .223 won't kill an elk. That's already been proven. My problem is admitting it's a good elk round. Not to toot my own horn, but I there's one thing I do well in my hunting. It's being very disciplined on the shots I take. My dad drove that into me, and it stuck. I pass up a lot of shots. So, I worry about guys using small calibers for big game, and an elk is big game. Especially, if we're talking about a mature bull. There's not a lot of hunters who can turn down angled shots. To always wait for a side double lung shot because you have a minimal gun is not something everybody can do. That's my problem with the .223.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Joined: Mar 2009
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I don't think I would ever hunt elk with a 223 or a 243, but I am just happy that I live in a free state that allows me to decide for myself what cartridge I want to use. None of this 1000fpe BS, or caliber restrictions.
I know a guy who used an Encore pistol in 223 with a silencer to kill an elk. He was at close range and made a good shot right in the head. He is a very good shot and an even better hunter. In a most states what he did would have been illegal. In Idaho, it was legal and effective.
I have bigger rifles that I prefer to use, and I am happy that I am allowed to make that choice on my own, without the government telling me!
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Joined: Nov 2003
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You remind me of some fly fisherman I know. They insist on using the lightest tippets (end of leader) for very big fish. What happens is they can't put any real pressure on the fish, or the tippet will break. They also use very light fly rods, and again they can't put any pressure on the fish. So, all they can do is slowly play the fish until it's exhausted.
Now, keep in mind these are catch and release fisherman who claim to care for the fish. They're also fishing Gold Medal waters that are always catch and release. The point being to not kill the fish.
They finally land the exhausted trout on their tiny .223 size fishing gear, and hold up their prize bragging how they did it on small gear. Then they finally put the trout back in the water trying to revive it. It may slowly swim away, but it's dead. It went off by itself to die.
I ask them why they do it. They say because it fun and a challenge. The truth is they just want to brag about it, and could care less about killing the fish.
I feel someone who shoots a small caliber for big game is doing the same thing. Just something to brag about with no regard for the animal.
As was already said. You want to hunt elk? Buy an elk gun. Surely you can handle more than 3 lbs of recoil?
Last edited by 340mag; 02/22/12.
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Campfire Tracker
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I enjoy the hunt, but not so much the kill anymore..i have great respect for bowhunters, but could personally not mentally deal with the time elapse from when the arrow finds its mark to the time the gutting begans...when i shoot an animal i am always hopefull the end result will be instantanious, but it rarely is and i dont like dealing with that.
So as pointed out earlier, a .223 would quite likely dispatch an elk quicker then the bow but i would just pass altogether if those were my only options...
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Campfire Outfitter
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Why is it some say the .243 is an Elk killin' machine but the .224 isn't with only .019 difference in unexpanded diameter with them penetrating equally.
Jayco Well in my case it is because I have personally used both and am not guessing. 
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
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Joined: Mar 2009
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I think everyone knows how tough wild boar hide is and Winchester has come up with a new .223 and .308 bullet to deal with just that.Thick hide and bone...If a Berger VLD fails in an Elk shoulder would that mean a Barnes or Nosler would also?I don't think so. As someone said earlier..Is a new .223 bullet of today equal to the old bullets in a .243..Yup... With todays bullets, I see no reason if used accordingly that the .223 which tested equal in penetration on Deer by an NRA contractor, to the .243 and 30-30 in penetration, cannot cleanly kill Elk. Why is it some say the .243 is an Elk killin' machine but the .224 isn't with only .019 difference in unexpanded diameter with them penetrating equally. Jayco I have killed A LOT of feral hogs and I havn't seen anything to make me believe that they are any tougher than other game animals. The boars sometimes have a lot of dried mud on their shoulders, but that does not seem to make a difference to a bullet. The 223 partions and solid coppers do penetrate well and I would not be surprised if they penetrated an elk shoulder adaquaetly. John's 90gr VLD failed while a 105 VLD did penetrate. The two bullet's SD should be pretty close and so is their weight. Thats a very fine line there, so again, I would guess that a stouter 223 bullet would have no problem penetrating a shoulder. Are you going to go test this for us?
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Joined: Dec 2011
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It's been said that 1500 ft. pounds of energy is a good starting place for an elk round.The 243 give you 1500+ ft. pounds @ 100yds.,the 223 doesn't give you that at the muzzle no matter what bullet you use.
I don't think either the 243 or the 223 are good elk rounds but if i had to choose one it would be the 243.
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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You remind me of some fly fisherman I know. They insist on using the lightest tippets (end of leader) for very big fish. What happens is they can't put any real pressure on the fish, or the tippet will break. They also use very light fly rods, and again they can't put any pressure on the fish. So, all they can do is slowly play the fish until it's exhausted.
Now, keep in mind these are catch and release fisherman who claim to care for the fish. They're also fishing Gold Medal waters that are always catch and release. The point being to not kill the fish.
They finally land the exhausted trout on their tiny .223 size fishing gear, and hold up their prize bragging how they did it on small gear. Then they finally put the trout back in the water trying to revive it. It may slowly swim away, but it's dead. It went off by itself to die.
I ask them why they do it. They say because it fun and a challenge. The truth is they just want to brag about it, and could care less about killing the fish.
I feel someone who shoots a small caliber for big game is doing the same thing. Just something to brag about with no regard for the animal.
As was already said. You want to hunt elk? Buy an elk gun. Surely you can handle more than 3 lbs of recoil? So small women and children who don't care for the recoil of a 270 shouldn't go elk hunting? A vast number of elk shot every year are backed up to and loaded into a pickup, and I know several very successful elk hunters who have never packed out an elk.
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Are there small women and children on this thread saying a .223 is ok for elk.
I see grown men saying it's ok, and that's who i'm talking about.
I was 10 years old on my first elk hunt. I shot a 30-30. I don't think any women are as small as I was.
Last edited by Mauser_Hunter; 02/22/12.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
You remind me of some fly fisherman I know. They insist on using the lightest tippets (end of leader) for very big fish. What happens is they can't put any real pressure on the fish, or the tippet will break. They also use very light fly rods, and again they can't put any pressure on the fish. So, all they can do is slowly play the fish until it's exhausted.
Now, keep in mind these are catch and release fisherman who claim to care for the fish. They're also fishing Gold Medal waters that are always catch and release. The point being to not kill the fish.
They finally land the exhausted trout on their tiny .223 size fishing gear, and hold up their prize bragging how they did it on small gear. Then they finally put the trout back in the water trying to revive it. It may slowly swim away, but it's dead. It went off by itself to die.
I ask them why they do it. They say because it fun and a challenge. The truth is they just want to brag about it, and could care less about killing the fish.
I feel someone who shoots a small caliber for big game is doing the same thing. Just something to brag about with no regard for the animal.
As was already said. You want to hunt elk? Buy an elk gun. Surely you can handle more than 3 lbs of recoil? um, some folks need help packing out anyway due to health and age.... I help whenever I am around someone that needs it. I think your statement is kinda chicken [bleep]... you are not taking into account older and disabled folks...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Outfitter
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Are there small women and children on this thread saying a .223 is ok for elk.
I see grown men saying it's ok, and that's who i'm talking about.
I was 10 years old on my first elk hunt. I shot a 30-30. I don't think any women are as small as I was. So what? I could pack a 458 Lott for elk. Doesn't make me tougher than the guy carrying the 223.
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Campfire Tracker
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LOL This forum is funny.
In case you haven't noticed. I'm not the only one who thinks a .223 is too small for elk.
You also know I wasn't talking about women, kids, the old(me), and the disabled. Read my damn post again. Would any of those brag about the gun they use? Of course they wouldn't.
Use your freaking head, and stop looking for arguments.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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Ohhh! I see the problem here. You couldn't figure out who I was talking to in my first post. Please figure out how to use the internet, and get back to me. Also, questions are normally followed by question marks. Just sayin'.
As for the 223 on elk. If I had them eating off my hay meadows, where my shots were <200 yards, I wouldn't feel a damned bit bad about using a 223. Plenty of elk are shot every year under just such circumstances. Would I take one on a pack in hunt into lodgepole blowdown hell? Nope.
Lay off the ass shots, and put a TSX into the heart/lungs. Dead elk. This killing thing really isn't too complicated, despite our best efforts to make it so.
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when HUNTING sometimes shots are not ideal and neither is a 223 to go elk hunting, ideal conditons are just as prairie_goat said then maybe a 223 , but even then i like bigger bullets for bigger critters
i shot an elk once in the head with a 338 and 210 partions at about 200 yards +/- 15 , of course it dropped dead , yes a 243 would have done the same but when i left 2 hours before daylight i did not know what the situation would be
i dont need a ultra mag, i know how to shoot my 30-06
having that obama sticker on your car might as well say " Yes i'm stupid "
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Ohhh! I see the problem here. You couldn't figure out who I was talking to in my first post. Please figure out how to use the internet, and get back to me. Also, questions are normally followed by question marks. Just sayin'.
I figured you and rost were talking to me. Since you both quoted me. Isn't that how the internet works? Even without a question mark. Your turn.
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.
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