Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Why Bother With A Shot Timer?

One of the comments made on the Mousegun thread I started yesterday got me going this morning. JOG pointed out that:





The draw-and-fire drill I did for that photo is one I use a LOT during competition season, but it also comes in handy when I'm evaluating a new pistol or carry rig. I always pistol-train with a shot-timer to "keep me honest". It's not just to keep me sharp for competition, it drives me to focus on my fundamentals. If I'm doing a drill and I'm getting steady times in the 3.0 to 3.2 second range, for example, and suddenly my times start to run in the 3.8 to 4.0 second range, I know I'm [bleep]' something up. I review my fundamentals and repeat until my times get back to where they should be, or better.

In this case, I wanted to know how I could expect to perform with a new shoulder holster rig from Galco. I usually carry my PM9 in a pocket holster (which is SLOW to draw from, in the 4-5 second range) when I'm carrying in "deep cover" (at work at my clinic or the hospital, in civvy clothes), and I wondered if a shoulder rig would improve my times. (It did.) So I practiced at home, dry-firing, until I felt I had the mechanics of the drawstroke down, then I went to the range to test it with a timer and live fire. At first my times were in the 4's, but after a couple of mags I was down to consistent 2.8-3.2 second times. Honest 3's, in other words. I can live with that.

Knowing what your rig will allow you to do will help you determine whether you're going to use that rig for serious carry.

If I'm using a kydex IDPA-legal holster (most of my kydex retain well enough to work for CCW, by the way) I can get my shots off and hit the -0 ring or A-zone at three yards in about 1 to 1.2 seconds. A leather holster, or increasing the range to 5 yards, increases that to about 1.5 seconds. A tac holster with a Level 3 retention system goes about 2 seconds, but I've used some holsters that made breaking the 3-second mark impossible. My SWAT team issued a thigh holster for our SIG's that was a bitch to draw out of, but I didn't know how bad it was until I used a timer... 4-5 second draw-and-fires! I switched out the rig for my own Safariland and got back down to the sub-3 second times I felt I needed for safe operation.

I wish I had a dollar for every guy who's told me that using a timer is of no value, and being able to draw and fire quickly is for trick shooters only. When actually put up against a shot timer, most of these scoffers are hard-pressed to draw from a belt holster and put a single round on target in under 7 seconds. Those kinds of times may get a fellow killed if the SHTF and he needs to defend your life.

We don't all have to be Quickdraw McGraw, but the stats about defensive shooting indicate you'd better be able to finish the fight in under 4-5 seconds if you want to survive. Now, if it takes you 4 seconds to clear leather with your CCW piece, you might be a bit behind on the curve. If you can't draw and fire fast, you'd best up your situational awareness and make sure you get your gun out of your $300 custom holster well before the balloon goes up.

Learning what your gear and skill can do in real time is invaluable information, and a shot timer can give that to you. I advise any handgunner who desires to be skilled with his arms to invest in a shot timer and some cheap training ammo.

Shooting without a timer is the same as running an unknown distance, in an unknown amount of time. It doesn't do a [bleep] thing for you.


Happy Easter,
Travis

Damn. You said it better in one sentence than I did in a whole post.

Drink more, think less.

Hey, why is your group so schitty?


Travis

I was gonna post this over in the other thread and am glad you started this one instead. Too me, sending much if any time with a timer is akin to a a hunter who hunts thick woods spending time at a bench worrying about whether his rifle shoots 1" groups or 1.5" groups. That bench and small groups will have little to nothing to do with his success.

Just don't think knowing the precise time it took me to draw and fire is all that important in real life. If you practice, practice, practice your times will get faster, timer or not, and you don't need a timer to know that. YMMV.

CB

I know, I'm ashamed... fortunately, my newfound turdlike status makes this easier to bear up under!

Chris, you will get NO argument from me as to the value of practice and more practice. But as I wrote in the OP, it's not "precise times" that matter. But using a timer helps you perceive trends faster, so you can correct a mistake before it gets ingrained in your muscle memory.

I do not agree with that at all. If you are not using a timer, you will go stagnant as a shooter.

Same goes for runners, drivers ect...


Travis

Yes, schitty practice is always better than no practice. But not by much.


Travis

Important on a competitive/professional basis but not for Joe Blow shooters, runner or driver. I'm not out measuring my breaking distance to a stop sign, timing how long it takes to get to the store, or caring whether or not I run an 8 min mile or 8 min plus 10 sec. I'm not a competitive/professional runner, driver or even shooter for that matter. Most of us aren't.

I'm a recreational shooter whose gun may be called on for defence and as such it's only prudent that I do some practice in that area. But most don't spend more than a couple percentage points of their shooting time practicing tactics. Thus IMO the timer has limited value for the majority.

CB

The difference is that your defensive pistol is not something you use every day, like your car or your running shoes. It's EMERGENCY EQUIPMENT.

And if you don't train with your emergency equipment, you won't be able to use it very well when an emergency occurs. Don't take my word for it: look at the regulators for hospitals and EMS. We have to train with our equipment regularly, because research has shown that people who don't train have really schitty outcomes when the real thing happens.

Don't take my word for it. Look at the people who run SWAT teams. They make their guys train (with timers, my gosh!!!) because they've found that guys who train with timers do pretty well in real shooting situations, whereas guys who just loaf and say they don't need to use timers tend to do pretty schitty by comparison.

The take-home message is that if you're carrying a pistol for defense, you have no idea how well you can use it unless you measure yourself against some real standards. The only standards for pistol shooting are time and accuracy. Unless you use a timer, you're only getting half the picture.

I understand that you feel it is a "splitting of hairs" form of measurement. I can tell you from experience it is not. You can take a shooter that is drawing and firing one shot, center mass from 7 seconds, to 3 seconds very, very quickly. But only with a timer.




Travis

Really? What in the world did we do before the days on cheap electronics? Surprised anyone ever got a gun out of their holster. Heck, BG's don't use timers and since it's takes 7 seconds I don't need a gun. I can be outta range before they even get their gun out.

I hear where you are coming from, you think timers are vital and with some shooters they are but only have basic fundamentals are learned which will get them most of the way there. A helluva lot of shooters who own a defensive firearms would hoot, hollar and high five if they pull and hit a man sized target with half their shots, a timer ain't gonna do squat for them. I in no way believe that you can't get a shooter from 7 to 3 seconds or less without a timer. It's been done for decades where as timers are fairly new on the scene outside competitive shoots. I've never used one and I'd bet the band I could beat those times, 3 seconds is a hell of a long time. I'll admit I could be wrong a timer could be of more value than I think. But most shooters are so far away from needing one it's not funny. Me included.

CB

Police qualifications are timed for a reason. If someone can't beat x accuracy at y distance in z time, s/he shouldn't be in the occupation.

We use targets to measure accuracy. We use timers to determine speed. Why measure half of the variables when you can measure both? Using targets in conjunction with timers teaches the best way to blend speed and accuracy. If an extra tenth of a second per shot gives a person substantially better accuracy, then it is better to take the extra tenth. If not, he could be shooting faster.

Back in the day, timers were expensive, so they were not in everyday use. Now, you can buy a timer app for a smart phone. I am still using a PACT timer from 1986, so I guess I have amortized the cost.

If some people suck, that is not an excuse to not attempt to develop our true potential.

Added:

I see I plagiarized Doc on one point.

I am starting to think you have never worked with or trained a new shooter. But I am glad you are saving the $90.00 and that you enjoy shooting to half your potential, regardless.

In regards to your history lesson, there have been stop watches and turning targets for a long, long, long time.

Travis

I am going to tie this thread into the mouse gun thread. I don't carry mouseguns anymore. But, about 25 years ago, I regularly carried a Beretta 21A .22 LR stoked with Stingers and backed up by 2 spare magazines. I regularly shot about 100 Stingers a week at the end of training with other guns. It had minimal recoil and I could empty the magazine in under 2 seconds with great neck/face accuracy. I don't recall my splits between shots, but I could run it just about as fast as a race gun, and good center mass hits at 50 feet were not a problem. Now, if forced to carry a mousegun today, I probably would test a .380 against those standards and decide based upon objective criteria what would be best. If accuracy on the .380 sucked and splits were much slower, after retraining, I maybe would take a 21A over a Kel Tec P3AT. Only a target and a timer would give me good data.

I think someone is having a hard time reading my sarcasm today.

As for half my potential I think this is the main sticking point in our discussion. For argument's sake let's say a 5 sec draw/fire is bad (and yes, that's horrid), 1 sec is very good. Can a timer help get someone from 1.5 down to 1? Yes, probably helps immensely. But you seem to indicate that someone can't get even close to 1.5 without one. Now it is entirely possible that I'm not reading your sarcasm or that you inflating numbers to make a point and I'm missin it. But most shooters won't ever get to the point where they need to be worrying about fractions of a second.

I think what we have here is a shooter that takes SD and tactics more towards the professional end and another shooter that takes SD and tactics more towards the John Q. Public end. The shooter towards the more professional end (Yes, that's you) is probably better at tactics and training but in some ways may be overkill for the majority of shooters. I just don't think that the average CIVILIAN needs to go to any extremes to be REASONABLY (big key word here) prepared for what may come his/her way. If I had to guess I'd say what you think is reasonable and what I think is reasonable is pretty far apart. Most of us aren't Swat and we aren't LEO's and we aren't Military so comparisons to such don't apply. IMHO, of coarse.

CB

I�ve never claimed to be he sharpest tool in the shed, but the benefit of an electronic shot timer (EST) as a training tool and teaching aid was immediately obvious to me as a budding firearms instructor back in the day. Like reactive targets, EST's are one of the best training tools for the shooter and/or instructor.

In 1982 I bought the first commercially viable EST (Ser # 673) which was no small expenditure at the time �. about $125 if I recall correctly. It has NO �functions� per se, just a record of the last shot fired after the start tone. But, it served it purpose very well.

The value of an EST for competition is undeniable, but there has developed over time an unusual emphasis on �speed� with regards to defensive training. And while I wouldn�t dare to argue that �time� isn�t relevant in a gunfight, it�s not as relevant as you might think.

Competition is a great tool, but no discipline that I�m aware of penalizes the shooter to any realistic degree for lack of accuracy. This is unfortunate in that competition is always demanding that you SHOOT in a hurry, whereas the real world demands that you HIT in a hurry. It�s amazing to me how many folks can�t appreciate the priority in those competing interest.

Anyway, an EST is great tool, just don�t become a slave to it and if you put measured performance in it�s proper context you�ll likely be better prepared for a gunfight as long as your �times� remain a means to an end � not an end in itself.

I think you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Run without a timer? Difficult to train. Run with a timer? Easier to train.

LEO and military means nothing. Plenty of "non-professional" IDPA shooters go out every month and kick ass. Guys are serious enough to buy Milt Sparks leather, and some $1,100.00 1911, but don't shoot with a timer. They are wasting their time. They'll never be good.




Travis

Better not introduce timers to your girlfriend(s), the truth may come out.


Have never shot with a timer but now would like to..