Home Forums Gear Horses and ATV's Safe horses

The thread on the elk hunting forum about packing and safety with kids got me thinking. I'm a doctor in a small town, ED and clinic both, and I see lots of horse wreck victims. I've always wanted to use pack stock, but I'm in my 50s, have little experience with horses or mules, and I really don't want to spend a season or the rest of my life laid up. So, I've been using llamas for the last several years. My question: is there a safe way to get started with horses or mules?

Last weekend we were on the trail with the llamas in Rocky Mountain National Park and ran into some horse riders, one of whom turned out to be a long lost cousin. Their horses were the best I've seen on the trail regarding llamas. No bucking, snorting, thrashing, bolting, etc. These turned out to be Missouri Foxtrotters. I commented on this, and their owners opined that a gaited Missouri mule might be a good choce for a novice packer like me. Rather than try to get through all the smoke on the internet I thought perhaps Saddlesore and others might offer well reasoned opinion.

These Missouri Foxtrotters seemed unusually well behaved. Maybe it is just my luck or maybe there is an unusual preponderance of rough, ill tempered broncs around here but whenever I see or hear horses coming I try to get my llamas as far off the trail as I can. These experiecnes plus my observations in the ED make me want to steer well clear of horses and stick with my llamas. I'm not trying to be critical or to start a fight, jsut thinking out loud about the wisdom of starting a pack string at my age.

I'm sure others with more experience will chime in, I've hunted a lot on horses, usually ranch horses put to work during the season. And we put a lot of clients, 30+ each year, on 'em. The best I've seen were a work/Quarter horse cross, pretty docile and they'll handle lots of use.

I like mules also, a good mule (insert expensive) is well worth the money.

This one is the best animal I've ever been on, not a beginner mule though.

One of the work horse crosses, this one's built more like a Quarter horse.

As for getting started, I'd hook up with someone with lots of experience. I learned from the best of cowboys, I'm just not the best learner. Some ranches will allow a guy to help and you can get some time on good using horses.

You'll be hooked if all goes well, even if it don't go well, it makes for great campfire stories!

For someone just learning,it's best to get a horse or mule that knows it all.That means some money, $3K is starting for a decent mule,but that is not a guarantee.

I prefer mules because as the saying goes. A horse will kill you buy accident and a mule will kill you on purpose.They are that much more smarter than a horse. Also a good mule is 10 times better than a good horse,but a bad mule is 100 times worse than a bad horse. These two statements should make you aware of what you are getting into with mules( or horses) and why that up front money pays for the future.

A person needs to start off with riding and packing with someone who knows how to do it and handle livestock.It doesn't come from books and takes several years to get to know how,what,why.

That knowledgeable person also needs to take on the task of watching out for the neophyte and keeping him/her safe.

No matter the knowledge,training and such, sooner or later you will get hurt. How much you learn and how careful you are will determine how bad that injury will be.
I havehad quite afew difernt breedings of mules and one Ihavenow is 30 yrs old cand coemout of Missouri Fox Trotter. Darn good all around mule and good disposition.Howver thear slight of frame.Next,I would go to vote for a Walker mare bred to a good jack. Problem being they usually throw tall mules and I'm vertically challenged.
Quarter horse mares will throw good mules to,but you have to watch the disposition of the mare.

I presently have a Halflinger mule at 15 hands.Too big for me, but she dose very well hunting. Her biggest problem is she is a little bit too fearful of things. She is not a town mule but will sure lead a pack string.You just have to be riding her every minute.She is stout and has no quit in her.
At the bottom of the list are thorobred and arabian mares to make mules out of and just about very warm or hot blood breed. They are just too flighty.

Diposition is the number 1 trait you have to have in a mule. Confirmation is next, looks and cloro is at the bottonm of the list. For the person, he /she needs to be able to bond with the mule and gain thier trust.Mules do not have a lot of leaderhsip qualities and need to have an owner they can trust.

Size wise an mule equal in isze to a horse will out work the horse, all other things being equal so a person can get along with a smaller mule. A taller individual will probably nee da taller mule though, the smaller mules are handier in the timber and easier to load packs on.

I stay away from llamas like the plague.They can't carry much and cause wrecks on the trail when horses are encountered, because most horse just don't get around them much.I want a pack animal that can tote 200lbs day in and day out nand an animal I can saddle up and ride,not walk. I want to do my walking when I am hunting,not getting to and from camp.

That reminds me of a story in "TULAROSA, Last Of The Frontier West," by C.L. Sonnichen, Univ. of New Mexico Press, (c)1960. In it he recounts the history of New Mexico and it's settlers, outlaws, ranchers, etc.

One old crusty rancher, John Prather, who was a third generation N.M. rancher had his ranch located on what became the White Sands Proving Grounds. The Army wanted his property and he would not sell, or move, no matter condemnation efforts, Federal Marshals, local Deputy Sheriffs, etc. He swore he'd die before moving, and he'd die by taking some of the "confiscators" with him.

Finally, trying to reason with the old man, an Army major said to Prather, "Sir, we're going to be shooting rockets and missles right over your house. Doesn't that concern you?"

Prather looked him in the eye and said, "Missles? I am not afraid of missles. I have raised mules all my life."

The Army finally relented and Prather kept his ranch until he died. Then it became property of the Army.

That tells you something about mules, huh?

L.W.

One more question. How would a mule do being led all the time and not ridden, and do they need companions or are they okay going alone. I'm the opposite of Saddlesore. I like to walk, kind of like Po Camp in the Lonesome Dove story.

No problem just walking the mule.They will get attached to the owner,the same as another animal.Problem might be leaving them alone in camp then.They are going to bray, bawl, act out. They don't like to be alone if they don't live alone.

If they spend thier life alone while not being used,it would probably work out.

I'm going to stick my $0.02 in here...

There's a good saying out there that fits; "You have to treat a mule like you should treat a horse".

They are herd animals, so just owning one really isn't an option unless you want behavior problems.

They (horses & mules) are prey animals and don't understand punishment. They understand discipline better than people do and they absolutely live "in the moment", meaning that what they did ten minutes ago is irrelevant, and they have no concept of the future.

Finding a horse that is healthy, has the conformation and the temperament to do what you are needing it to do, and doesn't cost a bloody fortune is not an easy thing to do.

There have been threads here about ranch horses, and some good references given.

Find a rancher that believes in treating his/her horses/mules with dignity and you're on your way.

Equines are different than any other critter I've ever worked with. If you get one that will bond with you, you will have a willing partner that will go where ever you want, whenever you want.

There's a lot of garbage out there about "natural horesemanship", but there is some very sound advice and training out there under that banner, too. Some of it will get you started out with a strong ground-training background and will help you AND your mount stay safe.

Shoot Rio7 a PM and see what he advises about packing. I think he's used a horse a couple of times.

Best wishes in your search!

Oh, I almost forgot. I'm partial to Quarter Horse stock, those stocky, cutting horse types. Like this;



Ed

Find some mentor candidates and swap stories about injuries you have treated. If they can match you story for story, find some one else to show you the ropes.

The above is advice that I would like to have gotten when I got the horse bug in my mid 40's. Saw wrecks every time we went out. Some clinics and different exposures made it clear why we had so many problems - look for a "good deal" (really cheap) on a horse that has done it all, saddle them up just before hunting season and you can learn about wreck first hand.

My next steed I plan to "deal on a good horse/mule" not get a good deal on them.

Good luck

I'll chime in.

There's only one way to brake a saddle in. You can't rub it or oil it broke-in unless the oil is in your jeans.
You've received some very sound advice here. I'll reiterate a few things.
What you need to learn can't be learned by reading or watching. Sure you can go to seminars or clinics and you get general idea's but until you've done it and repeated in a few hundred times you won't learn it. Sometimes it is as much about training humans as much as horses.

You've reverenced some breeds. In the end everyone will have their favorites. The truth is. Any horse/mule of any breed can be what you want it to be. It all depends on who is laying the foundation and who's putting on the time and then who puts on the miles. You can make the worst horse/mule as well if you're not doing what needs to be done.

Having a good lead/saddle horse and a good string that is safe WILL NOT happen after a few rides. It is pure hookie BS that the Missouri Mule is better than X,Y or Z horse/mule. You can't get a good one(s) without sweating leather for miles. What makes em good is the time and miles. They need to experience all the boogie monsters there are. You can show them some of them or variations of them in the round pen but first hand experience trumps all. The goods ones have this. It has NOTHING to do with the breed. However, I will say some horses/mules breeds will learn faster than others.

Can you learn to be a good packer with a good string at your age? YES with out question. It all depends on how much time you are willing to commit. I've thrown a few hitches. I've made a few sparks. But it wasn't until after packing with a couple of good packers many moons ago that I learned what really needed to be learned. I imagine you are located around the CO,UT,NM area's...??
Your Llama's can carry about 80lb's max, each, no? One horse/mule can carry twice that and better built one's even more.
If you do you r part you also can build unique relationships with your ponies/mules. I can't really explain this one as it is only done and understood by those that have.

So to answer your question:

Yes, but you'll need to find good ones, and then spend time with them... and on them... and then both. If you can find an outfitter willing to let you watch and learn when he's taking a pack trip or better yet packing in a camp. you can learn quite a few things that you can go work on.

This thing you want to do is quite awesome. Once you've got a good grip on it and you have a few good ponies or mules, understand the dangers involved, you'll have a freedom few know. However, you need to be realistic about it. Open minded about it. Then willing to dedicate to learning it.

Nothing like a good pony and a tight hitch.

Lot of good advice for you. The only thing I might disagree with is that you can make a good horse or mule out of any breed. I think you can make them useable, but certain breeds aer more ameniable to certain task than others. That is the basic reason different breeds came about.

Thorbreds are bred ot run/jump.
1/4 horses are bred for agility,cow sense, work ethics etc.
Fox Trotters, Tennesse Walkers,Paso Finos etc. are bred for smoothness of gait.
Percherons are bred for heavy work.
Arabians are bred for endurance.
And so on and os on.

Just about all breeds can do any of these jobs, but each of these are more suited to thier intended task, but every once in awhile you can find a horse or mule that does all very well and that can usally be attributed to thier disposition, the trainer and the way they are handled.

There is a HUGE difference in what is referred to as a Missouri mule and Missouri Fox Trotter mule. The Missouri mule is usually referenced as one that has been bred from some type of heavy horse, ( usually belgiums) and a Mammoth jack.
The Missouri Fox Trotter is a gaited small framed horse and produces like mules.

In the mule world for the last several years,the buzz word has been gaited mules. Peopele tack big money on a mule if they claim it is gaited. In actuality, most mules are smoother gaited than a horse and when used in mountain riding, a gaited mule doesn't add much because you are negotiating rough, steep trails. The gaited aspect only comes into play on those not so treacherous trails. Nothing wrong with a nice smooth gaited animals when you want to cover a lot of ground fast.

I have people come up to me and the first thing they ask is if the mule is gaited. Then further talks,I find they don't know zip about a mule.I don't waste anymore time on them after that.

Thanks for all the info and the great photos. Yep, we live out on the backside of Colorado. Along these lines, my wife worked for an old timey outfitter named Jim Brink a couple of seasons ago for free and got pretty comfortable with the horses. He used a bunch of big half draft types. Pretty good horses and by the end of the season she was taking a string in and out by herself. She thinks a big part of that working safely was the high quality of Jim's horses. The big question you all have pointed out is do I have and/ or want to spend the time it takes to do it right.

If one set his mind to it and commits you can do most anything with any breed. However, as you referenced some are quite better than others.
We had a champion bucking horse that was in our dude string. He was as safe as any seasoned baby sitter.
I'm beginning to make a "string" out of these Rocky's we manage and things are going well. However, I prefer Mustangs and mules for "string".
Gaited horses are fun when you have the terrain to use them. I've enjoyed every minute teaching these gaited ponies to navigate the hills. One thing I do see as an advantage is even when not using the gait they have a longer stride and still average a faster speed over all. Truth be told in teaching this pony "Dawn" the ropes... I hardly if ever used her gait.

I whole heartedly agree that a mule is one smooth ride. I do very much enjoy a good saddle mule. The wife and I intend to purchase a few mares from the owner of the ranch we manage for and will breed them to a Jack to find out for ourselves what can be discovered from gaited mules. That's a 5 year thing though.


To the OP.

I think if you invest the time and do it right you'll have no regrets and discover an entirely new freedom to run the hills. Even in consecutive days without ever coming home. Some get it, some don't. Those who do are addicted. Those who are addicted know what I mean.

One thing about using horses or mules is that it can greatly extend your hunting career. I'll be 69 in few weeks with several health issues of back and lungs.If I didn't have a good saddle mule and a pack mule, I'd have to quit hunting. Those issues prevent me for having more animals,so I can't do pack ins anymore, but I can camp at my truck and ride in every day 5-8 miles,mostly in the dark, hunt and then ride back out.

Last year I hunted by myself. I hunted a total of 17 days for elk and was in the woods 24 days thru two differnt seasons.

With horses or mules,you don't tire yourself out walking into your hunting area. You can hunt as hard as you want and all you have to do at the end of the day is enough energy to crawl back in the saddle and ride back to camp without falling off.

Good on ya SS. Well said too.

I kinda chuckle at these guys who brag on hikin' in. Albeit it ain't easy and they work for their rewards. However, when they are 50% spent I've already passed em and go on 3X's further.

A guy who taught me much of what I know about packin' and guiding. (He's in "the books" with many of the trophy's he's guided for.) said...

"why go afoot when you can have a pony under ya", "just seems stupid" and he's a mule guy!

I don't have room for horses but my llamas are in between at that. I still have to walk but I can go in with a llama packing my rifle and day pack. If I score, they will bring out the load.
I'll be 64 in a couple weeks and my partners are 66 & 68. We're getting too old to be backpacking elk quarters but with pack stock, we're all good for some years yet.

Well, boys, I'm working in the ER tonight and just finished putting a nice 53 year old lady into a helicopter for a fast trip to Denver. She was riding a safe dude ranch horse. As near as people can tell, she pulled open the velcro fastener on a water bottle holder and the horse freaked out and bucked her off pretty hard. Looks like bleeding in the abdomen, emergency surgery, etc. Damn. Real nice lady, nice people from the ranch, and so on. Damn.

A good discussion. Just remember that all equines are dangerous under certain conditions. For the mountains, cold blooded breeds do best like Quarters, but I have ridden some excellent little Arabs that were handy to get on and never quit. They had never been ridden by women or God forbid little girls. There are plenty of grade horses that can do the job.

The best mule of my life was out of a Missouri Fox Trotter mare. I got her to flat walk but never tried really to get her to gait because her trots were pretty flat. She had sense and size and could really travel. She did not panic which is the hardest part to accomplish. She was good around bears, but got a little tense around big cats.

Leading pack animals from the ground has been practiced around the world for many centuries. There is little to go wrong. That is worth thinking about on remote trips where you can get bucked off in rough country 40 miles from the nearest dirt road.

It is ironic that at age 62 my packing days are over due to some bad wrecks but I am now backpacking again. I would love to go on a long trip leading a couple of donkeys of a bunch of llamas. My adventerous trips with horses and mules took place when I was a younger man and could take hitting the ground better. I still wake up in a cold sweat some times thinking about the wrecks "out there" before cell phones and sat phones. Don't let peer pressure make you ride if you are not up to it.

Wow...

Who is the one who said it was a safe dude ranch horse?

It appears you are letting the accidents and uneducated horsey people sway your opinion on horses.

Iforget who it was said "Horse's are rugged sport". We can put year's of training and riding into a horse, and they are still a living breathing being that can get frightened by something or simply make a mistake. A 58 year old man from Germany was killed the other day and a young boy injured after coming off their "dude horse's" during a guided trail ride in Yellowstone Park. The horse's were startled by some bird's. IMHO the best we can do is put as much time into our horse's as we can, and be honest as to our ability as rider's.

I am one of the uneducated horsey people...
This time of year it is a rare week that I don't see at least one horse wreck victim. Yesterday I also took care of an ATV rider with a badly broken leg and a downhill mountain biker with a broken neck. Personally I don't ride ATVs while intoxicated or jump mountain bikes over 30 foot gaps. As Byron noted, I'm trying to be real honest about my ability and how much time I want to invest into becoming an educated horsey person. I recognized what saddlesore said: sooner or later you will get hurt. I am just weighing the risks of learning