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I just wonder about the levels of "power" that handgunners say they need these days. I talked to a guy at a gun shop the other day and he wasn't interested in a Colt SAA because he had black bear on his property. Now I live not more than 10 miles from this guy, so chances are the bear that are on his property are the bear that are on my property. And I'm here to tell you that if any of them hit 300lbs I'd be shocked.
But he wants a Ruger in .45 colt so he can push up the load. It took me 15 minutes of convincing that the current Vaquero's aren't much stronger than a Colt or Uberti; he still had skepticism in his eyes.
Now when I had my last Uberti, I worked up a load using a 275 grain Keith style bullet and a generous dose of either 2400 or 4227 (now that I need it, I can't remember which - that's gettin old for you). The end result was nearly 900fps out of a 4 5/8" barrel, and I'm here to tell you that's some POWER.
I used that load to L E V E L a pissed off 1,600 bull that was about to kill a neighbor. A shot through the side of the head and he dropped like he was hit by the hammer of thor. The bullet was never recovered and you could park a bus sideways in the wound.
Guys, that's a STANDARD pressure .45 Colt load. Yep, its on the the knife edge of SAAMI pressure limits, but according to the manual I pulled it from, it's within STD pressure limits.
Once a bullet hits about 800fps, (speaking of solids here) the only real advantage of velocity after that is a flatter trajectory for distance shooting. I say this with a mind toward the norm, not extremes. Of course you can get more performance out of an LBT style bullet at higher velocity, but that's a whole different arguement.
My point is, the standard pressure .45 Colt is a very powerful handgun. Inside of 50 yards, given proper projectile choice, it's a magnificent tool.
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I may be wrong Kevin, but I'm guessing that you're preaching to the choir, brother. Bullet construction to cause more disruption/damage may help with adrenalin and/or drug induced targets, but other than penetrating armor/soft cover, the added velocity doesn't accomplish much until you get into rifle catagoies and mach+ speeds. Of course I'm not a ballistician and could be wrong.
The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I shoot those 270 gr Thunderhead bullets outta my Colt SAA at 900 fps, havent hit any game with them yet, but the WHOP they give when they land in test media is very convincing.  Gunner
Trump Won!
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In "Bullet Penetration", Duncan McPherson makes the point that handgun loads that recoil too much are counter-productive. In self-defense situations, they can make follow-up shots too difficult and most people will shoot more accurately with milder loads. He even says that in a way, a .22LR is a better tactical weapon that a .44 mag.
His studies were confined to bullet damage in human soft tissue, not bears, but it's still an interesting point.
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Once a bullet hits about 800fps, (speaking of solids here) the only real advantage of velocity after that is a flatter trajectory for distance shooting. I say this with a mind toward the norm, not extremes. Of course you can get more performance out of an LBT style bullet at higher velocity, but that's a whole different arguement.
My point is, the standard pressure .45 Colt is a very powerful handgun. Inside of 50 yards, given proper projectile choice, it's a magnificent tool. There's the nugget. The whole thing might be a few characters over-limit for a tag line Kevin, but it's worth a try. If so, go with the bolded part. 
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill
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There are people who buy a Dodge Viper then drive it to the grocery store and back. Same folks shoot .454 Casull's at 85 pound deer.
I don't have anything against owning the car you want to drive, or shooting the cartridge that you want to hunt with, but for me, the 10mm, 41 magnum, .44 special, .45 acp and .45 Colt have all the power I need for the killing I would do with a pistol or revolver.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them."
-Master Chief Hershel Davis
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Once a bullet hits about 800fps, (speaking of solids here) the only real advantage of velocity after that is a flatter trajectory for distance shooting. I say this with a mind toward the norm, not extremes. Of course you can get more performance out of an LBT style bullet at higher velocity, but that's a whole different arguement.
My point is, the standard pressure .45 Colt is a very powerful handgun. Inside of 50 yards, given proper projectile choice, it's a magnificent tool. There's the nugget. The whole thing might be a few characters over-limit for a tag line Kevin, but it's worth a try. If so, go with the bolded part. it's strange that as you get older, sometimes people get smarter. I have a running argument with a friend that thinks if it doesn't say magnum, it isn't anything. My comment being that a .45colt does it with less recoil, less flash, more pleasant shooting than many others. I have a 280 grain cast bullet both in solid, and hollowpoint, loaded to a little over 1000fps. It is just flat destructive when it hits something. I have measured on the hollow point almost an inch of expansion in the bullet after hitting something. I have decided to load it DOWN next time i do a run of them, to around 900fps. That extra velocity isn't needed. I could say, we keep reinventing the wheel, which is good for gun sales. The other side of it is the .45colt has worked for how many years? And what is the 1911 .45acp other than a different delivery system for the .45colt?
Last edited by RoninPhx; 08/11/12.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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I still find it interesting that when we talk self defense against two legged predators, most people want expanding bullets, and we were earlier in the week singing the praises of the 1400 fps load out of the .357 mag. Or the old original 10mm Norma loads, 180's at 1400+. The people who have extensively studied self defense shootings bad mouth non-expanding bullets.
But then hunting critters comes up, and lots of folks then want big, non-expanding bullets at relatively slow velocity. Granted, we aren't talking round nose bullets. Of course a big bullet, subsonic load is also a lot easier to plink with than a full house load, and may get the job done - certainly on a black bear.
My take is for deer-sized game, and mountain lions, I'll go expanding bullets, and drive them as fast as I safely can from the revolver or pistol, whether I choose to scope it or not. My .480 SRH easily accepts a scope. I probably will try it someday on deer or hogs, probably with either a 275 Barnes, or Speer Gold Dot.
Bigger animals - especially ones where you want to break big bones - yes a heavy hard cast. As long as the bullet does not expand, the faster you drive it, the deeper it drives, and the more damage from secondary bone fragments. My heavy bullet load for the .480 is a 355 BFN, driven at 1350 fps.
My compliments to Kevin on his marksmanship on the bull, with his friend's safety on the line, but with a well-placed head shot a 9mm FMJ may have had the same result. Obviously, we don't always get headshots in the field, and want something that works in hunting situations.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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My compliments to Kevin on his marksmanship on the bull, with his friend's safety on the line, but with a well-placed head shot a 9mm FMJ may have had the same result. Obviously, we don't always get headshots in the field, and want something that works in hunting situations.
I HIGHLY doubt that, seeing the momentum and frontal area is significantly different. I will agree that every example of a bullet hit on an animal is a sample of one, but in no way could that 9MM FMJ be depended on to do the same work as that .45 Colt did, even on its best of hits.
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In test done by Randy Garrett,penetration increases stopped at 1250-1300 fps.
What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth
Jayco
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I'd be fine with my 357 loaded with BB 180 hard cast for any bear or hog east of the Mississippi.
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Buffalo Bore makes some good stuff in different calibers.There 45 acp ammo with a 230 grain flat point is a real penetrator if penetration with a .45 caliber weapon is your huckleberry.34" in wet newsprint more than doubling the 230 grain FMJ .. ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/jaycocreek/RealGuns45acp.jpg) Jayco.
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Nothing at wrong with the good old Colt.
The reason for larger is velocity at range, not under 50 yards. That was what the .454 and .460 was made for so you have long range capabilities.
Even a heavy bullet in the .44 is good for 100+ yards.
Seems 1300 to 1350 fps is where I run all of my hunting boolits (cast) I use a little heavy but not that much. The reason is I shoot target and hunt at longer ranges then a slow .45 is good for. I take the .45 to 1160 fps with a 335 gr LBT boolit and it has dropped deer to 100 yards.
Velocity only means range. Heavy boolits hold velocity better. They penetrate better.
For more I go larger in caliber but velocity is still in the 1350 fps range.
For closer ranges it is hard to beat a Colt at 800 fps or a little more. To have it good at 100 yards, start a little faster.
Who needs faster? I do. I shoot steel to 500 meters with revolvers but I still limit hunting to 100 yards yet the heavy boolit at around 1350 is still good to very long ranges.
My 45-70 BFR revolver goes 1630 fps but it still drops around 26 FEET at 500. By shooting the same boolit at 1800 or so from a .454 would only lower trajectory a small amount.
Even Elmer wanted faster for the .44 and .45 because he shot FAR, not because he needed it for close ranges.
Even for what I do, I have found no need for the .454, .460 or .500 S&W.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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My carry loads for my 1911 is the same as my bowling pin loads. 125 gr hard cast in front of 8 gr of AA5. Where I live I may encounter Boerboels, bears, cougar, or bad guys. I feel this load will do all I need.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Interesting comments Kevin. Elmer Keith related lots of stories where the old .45 Colt saved the day with out of control horses, and angry cows in his book, Sixguns by Keith. The only thing he didn't like was the old round nose bullets not making much of a wound channel. Penetration it had lots of, but not any decent wound channel.
BTW, my Loadbook shows 17.7 grs. of IMR 4227 under a 250 gr. remington lead bullet at 890 fps. and 14,000 CUP. Hornady lists their 255 gr. lead bullet at 900 fps. with 7.9 grs. of Hodgdon's Univeral Clays and Hodgdon lists sligtly more speed with HS-6. All safe for the Colts, and other similar guns. E
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Campfire 'Bwana
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My carry loads for my 1911 is the same as my bowling pin loads. 125 gr hard cast in front of 8 gr of AA5. Where I live I may encounter Boerboels, bears, cougar, or bad guys. I feel this load will do all I need. Ya sure? I load nothing over 1000-1100 fps, from the 32 H&R to the 500L. The larger bores start getting less fun to shoot above that velocity and I too believe there is nothing to be gained regardless of the critter most might encounter assuming the proper round is selected to begin with.
Conduct is the best proof of character.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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My carry loads for my 1911 is the same as my bowling pin loads. 125 gr hard cast in front of 8 gr of AA5. Where I live I may encounter Boerboels, bears, cougar, or bad guys. I feel this load will do all I need. Ya sure? I load nothing over 1000-1100 fps, from the 32 H&R to the 500L. The larger bores start getting less fun to shoot above that velocity and I too believe there is nothing to be gained regardless of the critter most might encounter assuming the proper round is selected to begin with. Nope. Blasted typing finger did me in again. Make that 235 gr truncated cone cast from 93% lead and 7% tin. If I remember right is is somewhere around 900 fps.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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I agree with most evrything said here. Its been proven time and again that you dont need masive velocity to kill an animal. Why is that? Why does penetration slow the faster you push? Is it just plain bullet construction? Rifles drive through animals with velocities much faster. It seems to work there. Just curious.
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If a bullet is designed to expand, then generally the more it does expand the less it will penetrate, and bullets tend to expand less at lower velocities. For hard cast or full metal jacket bullets that are designed to retain their shape on impact, then that relationship doesn't apply. A few years ago someone did a bullet test that shows this. Look at the chart below. Soaked phone books were used to test all kinds of bullets. The top row shows what happened to each bullet at 3300 fps - penetration, weight retained, expanded diameter. Then every row down was done at a velocity of 100 fps less. ![[Linked Image]](http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee243/clm1956/Bul2-2002-2.jpg) There's a thermodynamic term that can be used explain this very well, but it's far too controversial to mention here.
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I just wonder about the levels of "power" that handgunners say they need these days. I talked to a guy at a gun shop the other day and he wasn't interested in a Colt SAA because he had black bear on his property. Now I live not more than 10 miles from this guy, so chances are the bear that are on his property are the bear that are on my property. And I'm here to tell you that if any of them hit 300lbs I'd be shocked.
But he wants a Ruger in .45 colt so he can push up the load. It took me 15 minutes of convincing that the current Vaquero's aren't much stronger than a Colt or Uberti; he still had skepticism in his eyes.
Now when I had my last Uberti, I worked up a load using a 275 grain Keith style bullet and a generous dose of either 2400 or 4227 (now that I need it, I can't remember which - that's gettin old for you). The end result was nearly 900fps out of a 4 5/8" barrel, and I'm here to tell you that's some POWER.
I used that load to L E V E L a pissed off 1,600 bull that was about to kill a neighbor. A shot through the side of the head and he dropped like he was hit by the hammer of thor. The bullet was never recovered and you could park a bus sideways in the wound.
Guys, that's a STANDARD pressure .45 Colt load. Yep, its on the the knife edge of SAAMI pressure limits, but according to the manual I pulled it from, it's within STD pressure limits.
Once a bullet hits about 800fps, (speaking of solids here) the only real advantage of velocity after that is a flatter trajectory for distance shooting. I say this with a mind toward the norm, not extremes. Of course you can get more performance out of an LBT style bullet at higher velocity, but that's a whole different arguement.
My point is, the standard pressure .45 Colt is a very powerful handgun. Inside of 50 yards, given proper projectile choice, it's a magnificent tool. Yep, if you want to make 1/2" holes in most things then the 45lc works. No matter what the dreamers say, LBT WFN or otherwise, you get a 1/2" diameter hole with a 45cal hardcast. But you can get a bigger hole if you go to a 300gr XTP and run it faster - and that is why those other cartridges exist. I'm not knocking a 1/2" diameter hole - we're pretty happy if our 30cal fodder expands 1.5 diameters, and lots of critters are taken with 30cal cartridges.
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