Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles The 7MM "Hit 'em Again"

With all due respect, I'll pass on the Barnes bullets. They are not magic, and they can and have failed. Not lookin' to start a pissin' contest, just sayin' their kool-aid ain't my preferred flavor.

Comparing different bullets in the7mm RM and .300WM and declaring one as measurably and demonstrably better is a perfectly reasonable exercise. The results, however, are more a factor of bullet and target choice than cartridge. Some days I like apples better, other days I prefer oranges.

Instead of comparing two very dissimilar bullets (TSX/TTSX ad AccuBond), let�s compare a Barnes 160g 7mm LRX (SD .257, BC .550) @ 3000fps to a Barnes 168g .308� TTSX (SD .253, BC .270) @ 3100fps. Similar construction, similar Sectional Density, similar weight. Although the .308� bullet starts out with higher velocity and energy, beyond 350 yards it lags in velocity and beyond 565 yards it lags in both categories. I�m sure either would be more than adequate for my needs.

AccuBonds? A 160g 7mm AB (SD .283, BC .531) @ 2998fps versus a 180g .308� AB (SD .271, BC .507) @ 2983fps? The .300WM is behind in velocity and bullet drop out to 1000 yards but does come in ahead in energy at all ranges. At 500 yards the .308� bullet retains 2149fps/1846fpe while the 7mm bullet retains 2196fps/1713fpe -- I doubt game will notice the difference and again either would work for me.

That extra energy doesn�t come free, though. Using Nosler data from their web site, it takes 75.5g powder to propel the .308� bullet while only 60.0g powder for the 7mm bullet. In 8.3 pound rifles that works out to 30.36 foot-pounds recoil with a velocity of 15.35 fps for the .308� bullet versus 22.15 foot-pounds at 13.11fps for the 7mm RM. While game might not notice the difference, my shoulder would have no problem detecting the extra 46% recoil.

Paper numbers aside and ignoring the two cases where poor placement (neck for cow elk) and bullet choice (160g XLC for antelope) caused disappointment, we�ve never found the 7mm RM wanting in its effect on game. My hunting buddy and I have taken three bull elk with the 7mm RM since 1999, all with 160g Grand Slam bullets, and all went straight down. A mulie buck I shot in 2007 took a 7mm 140g North Fork in the right ham and we recovered it from up against the sternum, another straight down result and hardly a problem with penetration. Dave, my hunting buddy, hasn�t recovered a Grand Slam or Trophy Bonded, the only two bullets he has used in his 7mm RM. It took me 20 years to recover a 160g Grand Slam as they had a habit of passing through and exiting. When I finally recovered one it had smashed both shoulder joints of a 5x5 bull and come to rest under the off-side hide.

If I didn�t think my 7mm RM was up to a particular task I�d reach for my .338WM or .45-70 before reaching for my .300WM.

Blast from the past.

".....This huge Alaskan bull (alces gigas) was shot at the edge of willows in semi-tundra timberline country on Alaskan mountainside,at range of 300 yards. He stood 7 feet at shoulders. Rifle is 7mm Mashburn Super Magnum,and was loaded with 175 gr Nosler Partition backed by 71 gr H4831 at an MV of 3130 fps.Bullet landed behind left shoulder,passed through lungs, smashed right shoulder,and left 1" exit hole.Few bullets designs of any make,caliber, or weight will give that kind of bone shattering penetration......

"Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for the American Hunter"1978;Hagel;caption under picture, page 180.

Forgive the plagiarism....I thought it was relevant to the conversation I wish I could post the picture of the bull...he is very impressive!

We have more good bullets today than then. I have never used a 175 gr Partition on anything;just 160's and 140's.....but I wouldn't be concerned in the least about it.Pretty sure I know what will happen.

CH

I know you and I have kidded back and forth the virtues of the .270/7MM for sometime.In all honesty,the experiences I have seen with the 7MM are quite different than yours.

I own a .270/.06/.300/.338/.375 H&H and the 45-70.If I had to choose just one(lord help us if it ever came to that)it would be either the '06 or .300 WM with the edge going to the '06 only because of rifle make/accuracy and how the stock fits me over the Ruger 77/.300 WM.

The .300 WM hits harder than the '06/7MM or .270 Win and it shows more of an immediate reaction from what I have personally done and seen.

Speed seems to be the first thing anyone mentions about a caliber aka something like a .308 bullet at 3100 fps.And only from what I have read here,most 7MM users go small bullet weight for more speed.You here very little talk of the 175 grain Nosler for Elk but in the '06 or .300 it is like the 180 Nosler is the king of beast.

It is hard for the vast majority of people to argue what JJ has done and seen..On the job experience trumps paper ballistics.I don't know how many animals a person has to kill to say that that bullet and caliber are Elk slayers.One notable says several dozen,I don't think it takes 36 Elk down to see if a caliber/bullet is a time and time again killer of Elk or large game....

Maybe someone like Jack Atcheson, who alot of writers say has killed more Elk than any other person around and his famous quote of the .338 just numbs them,might be another to listen to if any of us need to listen to others opinions on calibers and game.

I doubt these little saying from the famous effect any of the experienced hunters here at all,regardless who they are and there credentials.I quit experimenting with bullets and calibers years ago and stuck with what works for me in my hunting country and the game I hunt.

But like the old '06/.270 debate,I like to throw in the 7MM from time to time because few if any ever give it's down falls,like any other caliber,nothing is perfect for everyone.

Jayco

Sure different bullets and calibers make some difference but the man pulling the trigger makes the biggest difference.

+1

I'm a big fan of JJHack. But, frankly, I see a holes in these arguments.
Yes, I've seen the .338, the 7mm Rem Magnum and lots of other rounds kill stuff alot bigger and tougher than deer.
First of all, when the 7mm RM came out, it's 175 gr. loads had a bad tendency to not open much due to a pretty heavy jackets. Early users like Jack O'Connor remarked that the 150 gr. loads killed alot faster and penetrated enough to kill almost anything.
I've got a friend who shot a big Canadian Moose in the left hip with a Federal Throphy Bonded 175 gr. load. That bullet penetrated from it's hip to it's off shoulder and broke the shoulder bone. And down went the moose. So they do work.
A couple of more points are worth mentioning. 7mm mags don't kick as much as the .300's and especially the .338's. Les Bowmen noted that his hunters did better with the .243 and the .244 Remington on elk than did his hunters did with the .338 WM. He liked the 7mm RM alot and had alot to do with it's development.
That reduced recoil does two things. One, and most important, hunters often shoot it better than the heavier kickers. Second, it doesn't break down their beloved variable rifle scopes nearly as much.
The round is still quite popular as are all of the 7mm rounds. If they killed that badly, they wouldn't be. E

There's not a damm thing wrong with the 7 mag., and good bullet. It kills just as quick with a well place shot as my .338 win mag, or my .300 H&H. As far as that goes, I've killed more Elk with my .280 Rem & 160 gr Nosler Partitions, than the .300 Weatherby, and with a lot less recoil & blast!

Place the bullet where it's supposed to go, and there is not going to be any tracking!

Respects,

Richard

Let me start by saying that the 7mm is a fantastic cartridge. I have not heard anyone say that it will not kill game, so some of you guys got to settle a bit. Almost anything in the right spot is effective. What is being said is bigger holes normally ends things quicker. Thats been my experience and many others. I've been hunting for 23 years, so I do have some experience. Like I said, I would not feel undergunned with a 7mm mag.

I think some of you are missing the point. There are many examples of bigger calibers having a dramatic effect on game. Some os our troops complain about the 556 not being a man stopper, but the 7.62 round is. Why do you think that is? I believe that is the point here. No one is questioning you guys man hood, just saying there is a difference. My o6 is more noticeable than my 2506, same as my 338 mag is more than my 06 and so on. Thanks

I just think the 7mm Mag is too big. I have much better dropping game like lightning hit them with my 270 .. Only 44 years experience though ...

I like 7s - but Love 6.5s Also, 6s.

As to 30s, if forced to shoot 1 gun I reckon it'd be a 308 or 06.

As to 338s and the hunter who never had a deer take a step...

My 338-06 FLATTENED one buck at 200 yds, another at 25 yds made it 3 leaps, but ONE smallish buck at 40 yds ran about 100 yds after punching the lungs. Exit the size of a silver dollar, it ran towards my stand and turned, I could say it was PUMPING blood big time all the way.

NO round is perfect, no doubt on the largest of game, larger bores can put game down more effective. My last case above, would have died sooner I believe had I carried my 6TCU carbine w/85 BTHPs. I used a 200 BT in the 338 above on all shots.

I always felt if I go larger than 6.5 or 7mm, I am skipping right over the 30s and going 338. Love Elmer's OKH but my next medium bore is likely going to be a 366 aka 9.3x62.

Not much I would not punch w/a 250 or 286 to most common ranges.

That said, if I had a 7mm in hand w/a quality bullet, I'd be content if not hunting dangerous game up close. A 7/08 or 280 would do me just fine, but nothing wrong w/a RM.

And I absolutely agree with waht you're saying. There is no guarantee when it comes to hunting. I get it and know it first hand. I'm just trying to point out what the original post said. He never stated that the 7mm would bounce off game, just that he noticed a difference with the bigger calibers.

I will also add that my brother has killed 3 deer with an old 222 rem. It did the job but never a bang flop. Not saying it wouldnt in any given situation, just that his didnt. 2 deer through the heart and one throug the lungs. Funny thing is the lung shot ran the least. He still got all 3 though.

This was the premise of the OP, and, as I said previously, it's laughable, and an insult to the intelligence of anyone with a reasonable amount of experience with the big 7's.....a joke.



".......It seems to have a lot of trouble keeping game down with one shot. Or finding it after the shot. It's probably why I prefer the calibers .308 and larger for big game. It's also refered to as the "hit em again 7" in Alaska by many of the guides there. Because of the need for multiple hits to stop bigger animals, especially bears and goats."

Some of you koolaid drinkers ought to Google Steve Timm and his thoughts and experience with a 7mm 120 ballistic tip.

Whoa dude...I just quoted JJ Hack who has more on game experience than anyone here.It was an opinion based on his experiences as a Guide in Alaska and a PH in Africa,nothing more.


Jayco

Our next topic will be, "How many angels can dance on a pin?"
Probbaly be more relevant. Although I've been hunting for almosy 55 years now, it's mostly been deer with three elk and one antelope thrown in. Certainly nowhere near the experience of most here. The elk were shot with a .375 H&H mark X Mauser, a Winchester M70 push feeder in .300 Win. Mag and a custom mauser in .35 Whelen. The antelope as taken wit a .270, another M70 push feeder which leaves the deer. Most have been taker with a .30 caliber something, at first the 30-30, most with the 30-06 and the rest with the .308 Win. which I have come to like a lot. Wasn't always so but it's not germane to the topic. Took a few deer with the .270 Win. as well. Sad to say I did lose two deer in my hunting career, both shot with the 7x57. One was with a factory load that had a bullet way too tough for the actual velocity it deleivered which was about 300 FPS slower than advertised. The other just plain bad luck I'm thinking. The deer was well hit but in climbing the hill to pick up where it dopped down into gully, my foot rolled on loose rock and I ripped out the cartilage in my right knee. The deer was shot with a 140 gr. Nosler Balistic Tip, the early version made when they came in 100 bullet boxes. It is said they're a bit too fragile. My load was doing 2800 FPS at the muzzle and the deer was about 75 yards away.
I have to wonder if that cartridge is a jinx with me or should I try it again come my next deer hunt? I do know that deer was well hit as I could see blood and heard the snap of a rib being hit. My two hunting partners were so concerned about getting me to a hospital that they refused to try and find my deer.
Paul B.

Ok then. A Barnes 160 TSX VS a Barnes 168 TTSX.

A 7rm first, a 300 WM the latter.

Will there really be a large, on game differance? Bottom line, put a bullet where it needs to be and there will not be a differance here...

You're a good dude safariman, but you need to get back to reality. I think you've been reading too much and not killing stuff enough lately. My numerous field demonstrations tell a different story than yours.

pahuntr.....you're right. Put a .284 160'ish TTSX or Partition on the money and it's game over every time.

I was reading John Nosler's bio and big John felt also that a 30 cal was a better stopper on large game than the 7mm.I've had good luck with both 7's and 30's.Flip a coin for me anyway

What do we call large game? I'm strictly referring to elk sized stuff on down. It would include oryx, kudu, etc from the OP.