It's Friday and I have to be home for most of the day and I remembered a very experienced poster here whom was an Alaskan Guide and an African PH and he wrote this............

This year we took quite a few animals and used a rather wide selection of guns and ammo. Here are a few things I found interesting to add to the data base.

I'm not a fan of the 7mm mag. Throughout my career I have seen this cartridge used often. It seems to have a lot of trouble keeping game down with one shot. Or finding it after the shot. It's probably why I prefer the calibers .308 and larger for big game. It's also refered to as the "hit em again 7" in Alaska by many of the guides there. Because of the need for multiple hits to stop bigger animals, especially bears and goats.

Food for thought or are your experiences different than JJ Hacks?

Jayco

What was his name? How does .024" make any difference in how critters die?

Oooooh Lordy

It sounds like he's trying to justify using .308 caliber bullets.

BTW, how many elephants did that African hunter kill with a 7x57???

That's too stupid to even respond to.

Better question is, do you want to compare trophy rooms? I've seen Jim's, for a single hunter, its impressive. I don't think I've killed as many "love" bugs whilst driving thru SE Texas on a hot summer night!

Sometimes pups should stay on the porch and learn .....

Jim who? I'm curious why I should stay on the porch?

OUTSTANDINGLY well put. And spot on.

I just had a long conversation with Jim on WED about this very matter as we ewere disscussing this years deer camp and bringing his 10 yr old son along this time. He notes that the 7mm's (and I have one, the Mashburn Super version) do kill stuff, but from 30 cal and UP is where game gets put down with noticeably more authority and better blood trails. Based on his haveing been in on the taking of some 900 plus bears and thousands of head of other big game, I tend to like to listen and learn, and I have taken a lot more game than 99% of the people on this board. Jim went further to state that the 338's are even better and I have heard this from more than one guide or outfitter in Alaska and the Rocky Mountain West. Not to mention PH's in Africa. Big holes, and two of them, are a GOOD thing.

Again, I have a very fast 7, but it is my deer rifle and nothing else.

YMMV

The question of 7mm to .30 was a serious one, it looks cynical in my first post and I should've asked it more seriously. The hunter's name is Jim Hack? If avagadro says he has a badazz trophy room, I won't question that at all

Did he find that the .30s expand better, retain weight, penetrate deeper, etc? Or maybe just the fact that you can shoot such heavy .308" bullets? I know that the 180gr TTSX I use at 2950-3k are very impressive.

Again, didn't mean to be smartazzed...

I think a person has to actually try a big 30 , 338 win or even better yet a 340 WBY to actually understand how well they perform on larger game.

No I'm not saying anything negative about the big 7's.

Nice how we have all these choices!

No worries young man. JJHack is short for Jim Hackwicz. If it were not already bear season he would probably be here in person more to explain his positions. Since he lives close and we hunt together a fair amount I sometimes throw out what I have heard form him. Jim has been a guide for Brown Bears and Black bears in AK, Black Bears in NW Washington state and has PH'ed extensively in Zimbabwe and South Africa for many years. I have been priviliged to hunt with hi in person some and he is one that any and all here could and should learn from as his expereince is that much more expansive than about anyone else here. He went to Universtiy in South Africa and learned his trade there from the locals, while earning his PH licenses.

His favorite bullet in 30 cal right now is the 168gr TTSX. I myself have dropped down form the 180gr Barnes that I had been using to that bullet based on his observations over a couple years of shooting and seeing shot many, many big game animals.

He had a nice 25/06 built at one time, it is now in my possesion to be taken to the guns show in Moscow Idaho for sale at my gun show table as it has not been used for a very long time and he quite honestly does not see any use for it. It is a REALLY NICE full on custom.

I have used both the 300 RUM and my wildcat 340 Tyrannosaur in Africa and they are WICKED killers. Lots of DRT/Bangflop type kills. no tracking required, or at least very little so more time for hunting and lots lower stress.

Really...

How does your hunting experiences compare to Jim Hackiewicz(JJHack) if you even know who he is?What can you report about several calibers used in one year and what you say from A-Z.

I doubt there is one person on this forum with the experience he has doing and seeing because,that is his job and was,Alaska wise.He only gave his opinion on what he saw that year and years before.

Sheesh...Take the post for what it was..One very experienced hunter/Guide and PH and his opinion on calibers for "Big Game" not Deer.

Jayco

As we all should with less experience...

Jayco

In my very limited personal experience, I've had much better fortune with the 30s than the 7s. It's to the point where I probably won't ever own a 7 again. Most likely it was my shooting or maybe my bullet choices. I only know that the 30s haven't given me any problems at all. I think perhaps I'm jinxed on the 7s and so I have no faith in them.

Here's an article on bear hunting that I enjoy reading pretty often.

http://www.z-hat.com/Stevenson.htm

Jesus Christ, sounds like every conversation I have with my family about any other hunting cartridge than a 30-06. I had to un-scientifically explain to my dear Uncle why a .270 WSM was "enough for Moose". He still thinks a 30-06 has more "knock down" so I asked him which had more knock down....a half ton Dodge or a half ton Chebby with a Light Bar.

Chebbies just bounce off .... ain't been worth a hoot since the gubbmint took'em over!

Bears on up I would agree. On medium and smaller soft skinned game not so much. But JJ probably sees in a couple years about as much game as I have shot in a lifetime. Then the other issue with some is do you shoot a .340 Weatherby as well as a 7 mag.? I don't.

I shoot mine (similar to the 340W wildcat) pretty well, but its stock fits me great, has a wonderful Limbsaver pad, and I have been shooting it for decades. Point taken, most are better off with a 30/06. Gee, I wonder where we have heard THAT line before... <G>

With all the high velocity small caliber guys on this website this thing is going to get good. How long do you think it's going to be before someone starts to question another guys sexual preference if they dare to offer an opinion that differs? Get the popcorn boys cause it's going to get good!

FWIW, The difference between .284 and .308 is almost the same as that between .308 and .338, not too many would argue a fast .30 can hang with a fast .33 when it comes to larger game.

I would agree that on larger game fast .30's are better than fast 7s and fast .33's are better than both if you can shoot them

I'd go even one step further and say the .338 doesn't even need to be all that fast to be more effective. At normal elk hunting ranges, I'd take a .338-06 over a 7mm mag any day.

I still find his comment to be laughable. Now I haven't ever been to Africa, but would like to. In W TX we have lots of aoudad sheep, obviously this is an African native. We have whacked many of them with a 7-08 and 140 core lokts, and very many with a 7mag and 7STW with 139 gr SST's, IB's, and SP's, and Nosler 140 BT's. Probably 200 or so. We've had many clients kill aoudad with the big 30's too. The sheep couldn't tell the difference and neither can we. I"m not buying it.

For buffalo, really big stuff, and DG, I'd probably concede.

BTW, I believe that's what Boddington said until he started crushing stuff with the 7mms. Then he conceded IIRC.

I agree with Jim. In my hunting experience, bigger holes stop ame quicker. I have a family member who is dead set on smaller calibers, 243, 2506 sorta thing. He has alot less bang flops than I do with my 30's and 338'. He shot a buck a couple of years ago, good lung shot. The buck ran another 150yds to another hunter who shot it and dropped it. His bullet would have worked given a little bit of time. I have yet to have one run with a lung/heart shot from a 338 win. Just my experience. Thanks

Well then, I guess we might as well sell everything we have below 30 caliber.

Quick, somebody go tell Dober that his 7 Mashburn doesn't work well...

And I've had aoudad run off with a hunter's 180 gr slug out of a 300 Weatherby too. If you've hunted enough you know that the way game behaves after being hit sometimes just can't be explained, even when you hit 'em "good".

I agree, anything can happen. Dont beat on me too bad, its just my observation.

I didnt say they dont work, just bigger calibers tend to end things quicker.

To add another stick to the fire, where does "fast" fit in? If you shoot an animal with say a 30-06 and another with a 300,using a 180gr bullet. you're gonna end up with two holes in the animal so what difference does it make that the 300 was going 300fps faster than the '06?

I've seen a ton of elk and mule deer killed with a 7mm RM, I like a 300 WBY but never would feel under gunned with my 7mm!

Hmmm...if bigger calibers end it quicker, sounds like a 50 caliber Hawken is the optimum rifle, then.

I'm sitting her wondering what Warren Page and O'Connor and Karamojo Bell would have to say about all this. And wonder why gents like them who have heretofore been considered knowledgeable and experienced would choose lesser cartridges.

I further wonder if the 7 RM is such a bad performer, how it has lasted this long, and how it has retained the popularity it has. And why many on here who have 7mm-08's like them so well and say they perform so well.

I'm not sure I fully understand the mechanics of this new revelation.

I'm

Tanner: Ive had the pleasure of meeting and talking with Jim, and you won't hear me say this about many hunters, but he's the real deal.

I know you didn't mean to be smart azzed, you are too young and too nice.

Hang around us a little longer and we will change that.....

If you shoot a "big" animal with a 180 grain bullet in either the 30-06 or the 300 mag, you may end up with two holes.....or not. (The same with the 33s.) Big animals with heavy muscles, tough elastic hides, and/or big bones can stop an amazing amount of speeding metal. Bullet choice always has been and still is important.

I suspect this thread involves people who have shot bigger animals, as well as those who think mulies and similar quailify. Moose don't seem to brush off anything, even as lowly as a 223 if it is used well, and a 243 can produce some lightning quick kills on them (and bears even). But a 30 caliber with at least six times the caliber in bullet weight seems to be more assuredly lethal time after time with reasonable bullet placement. (And for lighter stuff like 300 pound caribou, even the lowly little 28-308 seems to put them down faster than the 24 calibers do.)

I know I'll never hear you say I'M the Real Deal, 'cause we just know that's a given... right?

In all seriousness, I've been considering this very subject for the last several weeks, since I picked up a new Ruger Hawken in .30-06. And I've been considering that the .30-06 just seems to be universally effective on virtually everything.

And yet, I have to wonder how .024 can make such a difference...or if it really does. We, as a country, have been shooting the .30-06, primarily, and other .30 caliber cartridges for so long, that perhaps we have made it a baseline as 'the' definitive caliber.

If, in fact, there is something magical about the .30 caliber, what is it? Does a bullet have to achieve a certain width vis-a-vis the size of a big game animal in order to reach a certain threshold of effectiveness?

I think of Bell knocking off elephants with his 7x57, Page wandering about knocking things down with his 7mm Mashburn, and O'Connor using his 270, and their accomplishments tend to suggest that lesser calibers can be, and are, just as effective. And I also wonder if there isn't a degree of prejudice, to an extent, in some quarters againt the 7 RM. Why is that? Is it because its popularity put it in the hands of so many, including poor hunters and poor shots who made it look bad, or because it's hype, valid or not, earned it the enmity of the .30 caliber devotees who saw it as 'the pretender'.

There can be no doubt that .30 caliber and above cartridges are effective, if used properly. But is a larger caliber more effective in the hands of a poor shot or someone whose ego or peer pressure has forced him to use one, even though he's scared to death of it or has developed a wicked flinch? A larger caliber bullet that misses can never be moe effective than a smaller caliber bullet through the lungs.

It's as close to a universal truth as you can get that a properly constructed bullet placed properlyat sufficient velocity from an adequate cartridge will be effective.

I think of the video posted earlier of the girl shooting the elk at distance with a .243 and I have to wonder how much more effectively that elk could have been dispatched.

These discussions are fun in the off-season, but I am left wondering just how much real truth we ever really find.

I would say, with all respect, my friend, that you are well on your way to becoming 'the real deal'. You have attained much shooting knowledge for one so young, and I can only assume that you will gain ever more knowledge and experience, both shooting and hunting. You are young and enthusiastic and eager to learn, and that will take you far.

Plus you're already the Junior Poohbah, which speaks volumes! Being a smartazz is a bit of an art form, but Ingwe and the rest of us will get you knowed up right smartly.

I'm just an average hunter from Montana that uses a .30 I have hunted with other average Montana hunters for a long time that use 7's. Can't say as I've seen much difference in the way stuff dies between the two with bullets placed right. But, I can also say, with critters hit bad, it's a mess with either. mtmuley

300 magnums are more potent(however you define it)cartridges than 7mm's because the bullets weigh more,are fatter,and start at about the same velocity as those from a 7 magnum.There is just more bullet and bore diameter to put to work and that counts for something.

I've used the 300 Weatherby and 300 Win on numerous bull elk (not 1000 of them, that's a lot!).Seen a brown bear killed with one (just once).

I've seen what folks would refer to as spectacular kills....every time I've seen it, the animal was well hit.When it wasn't there was a chase,or the animal had to be shot "numerous times"(anybody got a rhyme for that?).Same thing with 7mm's and 338's.

Maybe the 30's and 338's leave bigger blood trails...I don't know.The only blood trails that ever impressed me at all were the one's made by 375's.

Still I think 300's are harder hitting cartridges.

Doesn't matter as far as I'm concerned because I don't want a 300 magnum because I hate shooting the things, much as I love them...in short, I don't care about any difference between them....not anymore.

I'll just use tough 7mm bullets and take my chances.....or grab a 30/06.

very well said, totally agreed

I like 7's.


Travis

Me too Travis and I certainly respect the opinions of hunters like JJ Hack, but I'm afraid Log Cutter is a dipshidiot.

That's what she said... I think.

I like'em all.

I just don't want my 2 7 RM's and my 280 to get their feelings hurt because peeps are saying they're 'inadequate'.

Cuz they ain't!

The CF is great if not consistent.

Yesterday it was all about 7mm's and their wondrous BC's for those 800 yard shots in a hurricane. That was all the posts were about.

Today they're a big step behind the 30s in killing stuff.

Tomorrow?

As has already been noted, there must be some kind of documentable killing efficacy to keep 7mm RM ammo sales at such a high level. Still, these stories about wounding persist.

I watched a guy come into hunting camp & head over to the range to check zero before his hunt. After 21 rounds, he decided 5+" was good enough for 100 yds. I never would have expected to see a 7mm RM induce such a flinch from such a substantial individual, but he was closing eyes and turning his head before he yanked mercilessly at the trigger. Alas, he never fired at game, but any post-shot tracking rodeo that would have happened would not have been the fault of the cartridge.

It seems that the Haviland family keeps tipping elk over (30+ now, so it's told) with the "emasculated 7mm", a/k/a 7mm-08. That, plus the obligatory WDM Bell stories lead me to believe that the .284 caliber itself may not be at fault. Perhaps killing game still comes back to shot placement, blasphemous as it may sound...

As such, a good hit with a .30-30 will kill better than a bad hit with a 7mm Wby Mag. And a good hit with a 7x57 will kill better than a gut shot with a .338 WM. Game animals still can't read headstamps, and a hunter's got to know his limitations.

FC

No mammal is long for this world sans heart/lungs. What decommissions these vital organs is immaterial. Whether it's a .243 Win or a .375 H&H, the result will be the same: dead mammal.

The benefit of .284 projectiles is superior sectional density per bullet weight that translates into phenomenal penetration.

If a hunter believes his .300 Win Mag will kill better than a 7MM Rem Mag, who am I to argue? However, when we introduce science into the equation, a .300 Win Mag will not decommission an mammal's vitals more surely than a 7MM Rem Mag. And that's bankable.

After all, hunters will swear that less than a 100 FPS advantage an '06 has over a .308 Win makes all the difference in anchoring game.

Hunters have an uncanny way of convincing themselves when they're thinking they're convincing others.

Dead is dead. What causes death is immaterial. All that matters is bullets placed into vitals necessary to sustain life. It's that simple.

Last I checked, cave men were using 7x57 Mausers for everything. And they're always charring critters over cave man fires. I ain't never seen an emaciated cave man.

Ph's and hunters were killing stuff in Africa and N. Aerica long before JJ was ever born and the 168tsx was ever invented. Wonder what they did before he and his theories came along. Every hunter and PH in the world have their standard and threshold levels. Jim always seem to be a blue collar, get your hands dirty kind of guy. I always like that about him but always felt he was pushing Barnes bullets more than the .30 caliber. I admit I'm a 7mm man and am not ashamed of it. I guess since there are not as many bad stories about pressure spikes, game getting away,and non-lethality of the 7x57 that-that makes it a better cartridge than the 7mmRM. The .30caliber is a very lethal cartridge and has earned an enviable reputation on game all over. I just don't want to buy a 30-06 or put up with the muzzle blast or recoil of a 300win mag. or larger. To me some hunters just are not happy unless they can say they hunt w/the biggest or baddest cartridge available. I call it "the little hunter" syndrome.

While I own rifles more powerful that a 7MM Rem Mag, I have never hunted with them. Before my numerous shoulder surgeries, my 7MM Rem Mag was my primary big game rifle...for everything including elk. Now I'm thinking that in order to keep my shoulders from further injury I might have to use my .308 Win as my go to rifle.

I love my Belgian .338 Win Mag. But I vacillate selling it. After I bought it I realized that it ain't gunna compensate for bad bullet placement. If a .338 Win Mag will decommission a mammal's vitals so will a 7x57 Mauser. That's just the way it works. To bad I to spend a lot of money on my hunting education.

Now were I to hunt huge brown bear in thick cover, I think I'd go with a .45/70 Gov't in a Marlin loaded with Buffalo Bore ammo. Now I have fired such a rifle with said rounds. After I regained lucidness, I had to see my dentist the following day to have my fillings put back in place. That is not a fun gun to shoot. That damned thing launched me back to the dissolution of the Roman Empire, and when I got there I couldn't engage in Bacchanalia because my fillings were left on my shooting bench.

Big guns are not fun to shoot.

As someone who shoots a 7mm Rem Mag I will say that I have never found the caliber lacking. I shot a .30-06 for the better part of the first 18 years I hunted and still use one because I love that rifle and the caliber overall.

One of the reasons I chose the 7 when I bought it was the outstanding ballistics, SD, etc I could read. Plus I know the cartridge is one of the best for hunting NA non dangerous game, know several people who use it. Also know several who shoot various .300's.

I have shot several animals with my 7mm, none required a second shot. I shot one buck twice as he struggled to his feet but it wasn't necessary once I saw where the first shot hit.

I have shot several animals with the .30-06, shot one with a .300 Win. As the above poster wrote, they all work well when bullets are properly placed (imagine that!)

I don't feel that the 7mm RM is inadaquate for anything in NA, it can do the job, but it wouldn't be my pick for say, big bears. Does a .300 mag do it better? I don't know, but it does offer higher velocity with heavier bullets. A .338 or .375 Mag certainly offers much more than any 7mm or .300, and if you need more than a 7RM that is probably your next logical stop.

Whether or not the .30 and 33 mags are worth it depends on the shooter. For the various deer, sheep, elk, moose, and african animals that dont bite back, I'm sure a magnum 7mm can do just fine. I haven't hunted them all, so I don't know.

Some say they are, others no. The difference on paper between the 7mm Mags and .300 mags at typical hunting distances isnt't that big.I haven't shot enough game with both to say how much of a difference there is. I will say that between the .30-06 and 7mm there isn't any difference outside the trajectory. On game I sure as schit don't see a difference, that includes the .300 WM and .300 RUM for deer sized game.

All that said, if I could take one rifle to hunt the world it would be a .375 H&H. One for NA, I would probably go with a .300 of some sort.

Lucky bastid. The ones I find always prefer 12's.

Oh well, that's what BGG is for.


Travis

I worked up loads for two friends that were going to Africa for the 6 plains game. They had the Weatherby 7 STW's. They also insisted that I load them 162g Hornady SST's! I begged them to let me work up a load for the 175g Partitions, but NO way they would hear of it.

The accuracy load for their Mark 5's was with the 162 SST at 3250 fps using IMR 7828. Off they go to Africa. When they got back, all they could do was praise the gun, load, and bullet! Between them they got two large ELand, Kudu, and all the rest of the normal plains game. Each animal only took one shot, and each animal never took a step! The PH was so impressed that he wrote an article in the magazine that all the PH's get over there.

They also took their taxidermist with them, he was shooting a 338 WM with 250g Partitions. They had to do some tracking as animals were running off, SOB probably could not shoot...you think?

Any normal fellow just can't compete with that.

Me too...on come out rolls. They piss me off after points are established. I've been know to cuss 7's while wandering green felt jungles.

When I first started hunting my mentors used a 7mm RM and I bought one myself. For 20+ years it was my only centerfire bolt gun. When Dave, my hunting buddy of the last 13 years, bought his first centerfire it was also a 7mm RM. (He now has a .30-30 as well.) While we haven�t begun to take as many animals as JJ, there are only two cases where we were disappointed and neither was because we were using a 7mm RM.

One was an antelope I shot with 160g XLCs at 300 yards. Two through the chest as a slight quartering towards angle put the buck on the ground but it kept its head up as if sunning itself. After circling around a third at 125 yards on a quartering away hit the heart and ended it. The first two wound tracks showed questionable expansion and the last was only slightly better. This I considered to be a bullet failure rather than a failure of the 7mm RM.

The other case was a cow elk my hunting buddy shot in the neck, against my advice. This time the bullet was a 160g Grand Slam at 80 yards or less. The bullet passed through and although several of us were looking, we couldn�t find any blood in the fresh snow � just lots of tracks left as the small herd scattered. We found the cow the next morning and tracking backwards found a pin-point of blood every 20-30 yards. This time I place the blame on bullet placement rather than the bullet or the cartridge.

Other than that I�ve found the 7mm RM to be very satisfactory on elk , deer and antelope.

Get at 375 RUM in a NULA, drive 250's at 3200 It will be accurate and under 7 lbs. Now go out and shoot two critters a day with it and let me know how long your ability to shoot it well holds up.

These discussions are silly.

So, a 300 WM with a 169 TSX is sooo much better than a 7 RM with a 160 accubond or Partition?!?

I gives the 8 gr of copper and .024 of Bullet dia make all the differance. I'm not knocking the 300, just I see them as rather equal...

Shortly after contact with game, that 160gt Accubonnd or Partition is going to weigh 112 grains or so and THAT is all you are going to have as mass trying to penetrate. Thier own literature stated that the PArtition (the best of the two) loses about 30% of its weight and mass. which are HUGE factors in momentum and thisly penetration so the answer is YES, there is going to be a BIG difference in the permanent would cavity and destructive capabilities between those two loads with the 30 cal 168gr TTSX winning by a figurative mile. No contest, and not the best of choices to prove you point, handicapping yourself with both the smaller caliber AND bullets that shed too much wieght to be in the same conversation. Kind of a T bucket with a flathead motor going up against a Modern Supercharged Cadillac CTS-V with over 500HP. The results are going to be boringly predictable in favor of the Cad CTS-V or 30 cal 168 over the old school bullet especially the long ago passed up Noslers in a smaller diameter. The NOslers earned thier place in history, deservedy so just like the flathead V8 earned its place but that place is in our fond memories, now in todays hunting fields unless one is just waxing nostalgic and does not mind handicapping himself a bit to use an old school antiquated albei still workable, design. Rock on and kill lots of game with it if that makes you happy, but know that from a purely performance standpoint there is much better out there.

Short version: In this case you gave absolutely YES, there is going to be "sooooo" much differernce. Leagues of it. Measureable and demonstrable.

Here's a thought. Many hunters including myself mostly use cup and core bullets. A cup and core seems to work better if it's larger in dia. and moving between 2600-2800 fps. Perhaps that could lead to the idea that the .30s work better. With modern bullets you can use calibers on deer sized game that we wouldn't have used in the 1970s.

With all due respect, I'll pass on the Barnes bullets. They are not magic, and they can and have failed. Not lookin' to start a pissin' contest, just sayin' their kool-aid ain't my preferred flavor.

Comparing different bullets in the7mm RM and .300WM and declaring one as measurably and demonstrably better is a perfectly reasonable exercise. The results, however, are more a factor of bullet and target choice than cartridge. Some days I like apples better, other days I prefer oranges.

Instead of comparing two very dissimilar bullets (TSX/TTSX ad AccuBond), let�s compare a Barnes 160g 7mm LRX (SD .257, BC .550) @ 3000fps to a Barnes 168g .308� TTSX (SD .253, BC .270) @ 3100fps. Similar construction, similar Sectional Density, similar weight. Although the .308� bullet starts out with higher velocity and energy, beyond 350 yards it lags in velocity and beyond 565 yards it lags in both categories. I�m sure either would be more than adequate for my needs.

AccuBonds? A 160g 7mm AB (SD .283, BC .531) @ 2998fps versus a 180g .308� AB (SD .271, BC .507) @ 2983fps? The .300WM is behind in velocity and bullet drop out to 1000 yards but does come in ahead in energy at all ranges. At 500 yards the .308� bullet retains 2149fps/1846fpe while the 7mm bullet retains 2196fps/1713fpe -- I doubt game will notice the difference and again either would work for me.

That extra energy doesn�t come free, though. Using Nosler data from their web site, it takes 75.5g powder to propel the .308� bullet while only 60.0g powder for the 7mm bullet. In 8.3 pound rifles that works out to 30.36 foot-pounds recoil with a velocity of 15.35 fps for the .308� bullet versus 22.15 foot-pounds at 13.11fps for the 7mm RM. While game might not notice the difference, my shoulder would have no problem detecting the extra 46% recoil.

Paper numbers aside and ignoring the two cases where poor placement (neck for cow elk) and bullet choice (160g XLC for antelope) caused disappointment, we�ve never found the 7mm RM wanting in its effect on game. My hunting buddy and I have taken three bull elk with the 7mm RM since 1999, all with 160g Grand Slam bullets, and all went straight down. A mulie buck I shot in 2007 took a 7mm 140g North Fork in the right ham and we recovered it from up against the sternum, another straight down result and hardly a problem with penetration. Dave, my hunting buddy, hasn�t recovered a Grand Slam or Trophy Bonded, the only two bullets he has used in his 7mm RM. It took me 20 years to recover a 160g Grand Slam as they had a habit of passing through and exiting. When I finally recovered one it had smashed both shoulder joints of a 5x5 bull and come to rest under the off-side hide.

If I didn�t think my 7mm RM was up to a particular task I�d reach for my .338WM or .45-70 before reaching for my .300WM.

Blast from the past.

".....This huge Alaskan bull (alces gigas) was shot at the edge of willows in semi-tundra timberline country on Alaskan mountainside,at range of 300 yards. He stood 7 feet at shoulders. Rifle is 7mm Mashburn Super Magnum,and was loaded with 175 gr Nosler Partition backed by 71 gr H4831 at an MV of 3130 fps.Bullet landed behind left shoulder,passed through lungs, smashed right shoulder,and left 1" exit hole.Few bullets designs of any make,caliber, or weight will give that kind of bone shattering penetration......

"Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for the American Hunter"1978;Hagel;caption under picture, page 180.

Forgive the plagiarism....I thought it was relevant to the conversation I wish I could post the picture of the bull...he is very impressive!

We have more good bullets today than then. I have never used a 175 gr Partition on anything;just 160's and 140's.....but I wouldn't be concerned in the least about it.Pretty sure I know what will happen.

CH

I know you and I have kidded back and forth the virtues of the .270/7MM for sometime.In all honesty,the experiences I have seen with the 7MM are quite different than yours.

I own a .270/.06/.300/.338/.375 H&H and the 45-70.If I had to choose just one(lord help us if it ever came to that)it would be either the '06 or .300 WM with the edge going to the '06 only because of rifle make/accuracy and how the stock fits me over the Ruger 77/.300 WM.

The .300 WM hits harder than the '06/7MM or .270 Win and it shows more of an immediate reaction from what I have personally done and seen.

Speed seems to be the first thing anyone mentions about a caliber aka something like a .308 bullet at 3100 fps.And only from what I have read here,most 7MM users go small bullet weight for more speed.You here very little talk of the 175 grain Nosler for Elk but in the '06 or .300 it is like the 180 Nosler is the king of beast.

It is hard for the vast majority of people to argue what JJ has done and seen..On the job experience trumps paper ballistics.I don't know how many animals a person has to kill to say that that bullet and caliber are Elk slayers.One notable says several dozen,I don't think it takes 36 Elk down to see if a caliber/bullet is a time and time again killer of Elk or large game....

Maybe someone like Jack Atcheson, who alot of writers say has killed more Elk than any other person around and his famous quote of the .338 just numbs them,might be another to listen to if any of us need to listen to others opinions on calibers and game.

I doubt these little saying from the famous effect any of the experienced hunters here at all,regardless who they are and there credentials.I quit experimenting with bullets and calibers years ago and stuck with what works for me in my hunting country and the game I hunt.

But like the old '06/.270 debate,I like to throw in the 7MM from time to time because few if any ever give it's down falls,like any other caliber,nothing is perfect for everyone.

Jayco

Sure different bullets and calibers make some difference but the man pulling the trigger makes the biggest difference.

+1

I'm a big fan of JJHack. But, frankly, I see a holes in these arguments.
Yes, I've seen the .338, the 7mm Rem Magnum and lots of other rounds kill stuff alot bigger and tougher than deer.
First of all, when the 7mm RM came out, it's 175 gr. loads had a bad tendency to not open much due to a pretty heavy jackets. Early users like Jack O'Connor remarked that the 150 gr. loads killed alot faster and penetrated enough to kill almost anything.
I've got a friend who shot a big Canadian Moose in the left hip with a Federal Throphy Bonded 175 gr. load. That bullet penetrated from it's hip to it's off shoulder and broke the shoulder bone. And down went the moose. So they do work.
A couple of more points are worth mentioning. 7mm mags don't kick as much as the .300's and especially the .338's. Les Bowmen noted that his hunters did better with the .243 and the .244 Remington on elk than did his hunters did with the .338 WM. He liked the 7mm RM alot and had alot to do with it's development.
That reduced recoil does two things. One, and most important, hunters often shoot it better than the heavier kickers. Second, it doesn't break down their beloved variable rifle scopes nearly as much.
The round is still quite popular as are all of the 7mm rounds. If they killed that badly, they wouldn't be. E

There's not a damm thing wrong with the 7 mag., and good bullet. It kills just as quick with a well place shot as my .338 win mag, or my .300 H&H. As far as that goes, I've killed more Elk with my .280 Rem & 160 gr Nosler Partitions, than the .300 Weatherby, and with a lot less recoil & blast!

Place the bullet where it's supposed to go, and there is not going to be any tracking!

Respects,

Richard

Let me start by saying that the 7mm is a fantastic cartridge. I have not heard anyone say that it will not kill game, so some of you guys got to settle a bit. Almost anything in the right spot is effective. What is being said is bigger holes normally ends things quicker. Thats been my experience and many others. I've been hunting for 23 years, so I do have some experience. Like I said, I would not feel undergunned with a 7mm mag.

I think some of you are missing the point. There are many examples of bigger calibers having a dramatic effect on game. Some os our troops complain about the 556 not being a man stopper, but the 7.62 round is. Why do you think that is? I believe that is the point here. No one is questioning you guys man hood, just saying there is a difference. My o6 is more noticeable than my 2506, same as my 338 mag is more than my 06 and so on. Thanks

I just think the 7mm Mag is too big. I have much better dropping game like lightning hit them with my 270 .. Only 44 years experience though ...

I like 7s - but Love 6.5s Also, 6s.

As to 30s, if forced to shoot 1 gun I reckon it'd be a 308 or 06.

As to 338s and the hunter who never had a deer take a step...

My 338-06 FLATTENED one buck at 200 yds, another at 25 yds made it 3 leaps, but ONE smallish buck at 40 yds ran about 100 yds after punching the lungs. Exit the size of a silver dollar, it ran towards my stand and turned, I could say it was PUMPING blood big time all the way.

NO round is perfect, no doubt on the largest of game, larger bores can put game down more effective. My last case above, would have died sooner I believe had I carried my 6TCU carbine w/85 BTHPs. I used a 200 BT in the 338 above on all shots.

I always felt if I go larger than 6.5 or 7mm, I am skipping right over the 30s and going 338. Love Elmer's OKH but my next medium bore is likely going to be a 366 aka 9.3x62.

Not much I would not punch w/a 250 or 286 to most common ranges.

That said, if I had a 7mm in hand w/a quality bullet, I'd be content if not hunting dangerous game up close. A 7/08 or 280 would do me just fine, but nothing wrong w/a RM.

And I absolutely agree with waht you're saying. There is no guarantee when it comes to hunting. I get it and know it first hand. I'm just trying to point out what the original post said. He never stated that the 7mm would bounce off game, just that he noticed a difference with the bigger calibers.

I will also add that my brother has killed 3 deer with an old 222 rem. It did the job but never a bang flop. Not saying it wouldnt in any given situation, just that his didnt. 2 deer through the heart and one throug the lungs. Funny thing is the lung shot ran the least. He still got all 3 though.

This was the premise of the OP, and, as I said previously, it's laughable, and an insult to the intelligence of anyone with a reasonable amount of experience with the big 7's.....a joke.



".......It seems to have a lot of trouble keeping game down with one shot. Or finding it after the shot. It's probably why I prefer the calibers .308 and larger for big game. It's also refered to as the "hit em again 7" in Alaska by many of the guides there. Because of the need for multiple hits to stop bigger animals, especially bears and goats."

Some of you koolaid drinkers ought to Google Steve Timm and his thoughts and experience with a 7mm 120 ballistic tip.

Whoa dude...I just quoted JJ Hack who has more on game experience than anyone here.It was an opinion based on his experiences as a Guide in Alaska and a PH in Africa,nothing more.


Jayco

Our next topic will be, "How many angels can dance on a pin?"
Probbaly be more relevant. Although I've been hunting for almosy 55 years now, it's mostly been deer with three elk and one antelope thrown in. Certainly nowhere near the experience of most here. The elk were shot with a .375 H&H mark X Mauser, a Winchester M70 push feeder in .300 Win. Mag and a custom mauser in .35 Whelen. The antelope as taken wit a .270, another M70 push feeder which leaves the deer. Most have been taker with a .30 caliber something, at first the 30-30, most with the 30-06 and the rest with the .308 Win. which I have come to like a lot. Wasn't always so but it's not germane to the topic. Took a few deer with the .270 Win. as well. Sad to say I did lose two deer in my hunting career, both shot with the 7x57. One was with a factory load that had a bullet way too tough for the actual velocity it deleivered which was about 300 FPS slower than advertised. The other just plain bad luck I'm thinking. The deer was well hit but in climbing the hill to pick up where it dopped down into gully, my foot rolled on loose rock and I ripped out the cartilage in my right knee. The deer was shot with a 140 gr. Nosler Balistic Tip, the early version made when they came in 100 bullet boxes. It is said they're a bit too fragile. My load was doing 2800 FPS at the muzzle and the deer was about 75 yards away.
I have to wonder if that cartridge is a jinx with me or should I try it again come my next deer hunt? I do know that deer was well hit as I could see blood and heard the snap of a rib being hit. My two hunting partners were so concerned about getting me to a hospital that they refused to try and find my deer.
Paul B.

Ok then. A Barnes 160 TSX VS a Barnes 168 TTSX.

A 7rm first, a 300 WM the latter.

Will there really be a large, on game differance? Bottom line, put a bullet where it needs to be and there will not be a differance here...

You're a good dude safariman, but you need to get back to reality. I think you've been reading too much and not killing stuff enough lately. My numerous field demonstrations tell a different story than yours.

pahuntr.....you're right. Put a .284 160'ish TTSX or Partition on the money and it's game over every time.

I was reading John Nosler's bio and big John felt also that a 30 cal was a better stopper on large game than the 7mm.I've had good luck with both 7's and 30's.Flip a coin for me anyway

What do we call large game? I'm strictly referring to elk sized stuff on down. It would include oryx, kudu, etc from the OP.

That's my understanding.

And for me, any big bears will see a much larger caliber then a .30. JMO, since I've never hunted them...

My impression was NA game he spoke of.

In my very limited experience with the .300WM (one cow, 180g North Fork broadside @ 260 and mule deer facing with 180g Barnes MRX @ ~300), both bullets exited but the results were no better than what I had seen many times with my 7mm RM. The mule deer went straight down while the cow stumbled about 25 yards before piling up.

I think the combination of bullet construction, weight and impact velocity makes a bigger difference than the choice of caliber, 7mm or .308�. For the first 20+ years I hunted exclusively with 160g bullets in the 7mm RM. The longest shot I ever took with it, a broadside at 350 yards, dropped a 6x5 bull where it stood. In 2010 my son-in-law took his first elk, a cow, with a .300WM and a 180g Winchester PowerPoint at 363 yards. It also dropped straight down but no faster than the aforementioned bull did to the 7mm RM. I know, low sample count.

It wasn�t until I started acquiring a pile of rifles in .308� (1x .30-30, 2x .308W, 3x .30-06, 1x .300WM) and shooting 168-180g bullets in them that I dropped down to 140g bullets in the 7mm RM. I have to say that for elk I have complete confidence in the 7mm RM with 140g North Forks but wouldn�t go there with Ballistic Tip or other C&C bullets. Not sold yet on the 140g TTSX for elk although TTSX and MRX have performed perfectly on antelope and deer. Still have a box of 160g North Forks and they may see some use this fall � the 7mm RM has been feeling neglected the past few years�

Last year I took my elk with my .338WM and a 225g AccuBond, the first with that rifle. I botched the first shot at 265 yards, hitting above the spine and a tad further back than I wanted. The cow kept walking, which is understandable considering the placement of the shot (indicated by the black circle in the picture below). The second shot was right on the money and stopped the cow but it remained standing. A third shot next to the second finally put it down. The third shot was probably not necessary but my philosophy is to shoot until they are down and stay that way. When I dressed the cow and saw the placement of the second shot I was really surprised she hadn�t gone down � especially given the number of straight downs I�ve had with the 7mm RM/160g and .30-06/165g loads with similar shot placement. You can see in the photo below there was nothing wrong with the last two shots, which made one large entrance hole.





Given that most bullets work most of the time, I�ve never felt it takes �dozens� of animals to determine whether or not a bullet works. I was unhappy with the 162g Hornady InterLock that I used to take my first elk, switched to Grand Slams and didn�t look back for 20+ years. Barnes 160g XLC bullets deeply disappoint the first time out as well and I used what I had left on paper and steel. North Forks have never disappointed me, nor have the Trophy Bonded my hunting partner used (he�s going back to Grand Slams this year since TB are no longer available as components), nor have the MRX, TTSX, Scirocco II or AccuBonds I currently use.



What? The 7mm caliber isn�t perfect? I�ll bet you told everyone in grade school that Santa Claus was a fiction, too!

All that is missing in this discussion is for someone to start posting pictures of a 223 AI killing bull elk with a 62g Tripple shock.

I think a guide watching clients shoot big-game is a piss poor way to judge the merits of any caliber. They dont know what bullets the client is shooting, what the clients shooting abilities are, etc. etc. etc.

Most clients arent nearly as capable as the rifles they carry...

I've been waiting for Barnes to come out with a 160gr TTSX to shoot in my 7WSM's. I've had good luck on paper and on deer with the 140gr TTSX so far and my Montucky 7WSM will have a mag full with said bullets for caribou next week.

Just a glimpse through this mindless drivel reveals a great deal more about the hunters/shooters than any cartridge/projectile combo. I've killed all sizes of NA game with all manner of cartridges/projectiles and the weapon makes very little difference. Those are the facts, unpopular though they are. Hitting stuff correctly is always the issue; the cartridge/projectile choice is a very, very, very distant second. Anyone, regardless of experience, that knows otherwise is saying much more about their "knowledge" than they are about terminal ballistics......

Not a TSX fan. Too many stories of bullet failure to expand at lower velocities. I shoot them in my 500 Jeffery but the size of the cavity in their .510 caliber TSX's is pretty massive. Never heard of a complaint with a Partition either with holding together at high velocity or expanding at lower velocity (below 2000 fps) out to 600 yards and beyond.

To me the 30 cals advantage comes with 200g bullets. A 200g Partition out of a 300 Win Mag, RUM or Weatherby at over 3000 fps is a beast. It probably is a good minimum for Alaskan brown bear. For all other North American game I'm happy with a 150g Partition out of my 270 Win at 3000 fps or a 160g Partition out of my 270 Weatherby at 3150 fps (though I wish they would move away from their semi-spitzer design for the 160s).

Barnes has a 168g LRX in .284". Higher BC (.550) than the TTSX bullets due to a different ogive but it requires a 1-9 twist or better due to its length.

I'm curious how does the 338/06 or a 35 whelen compare to the big .30s?

Is the frontal diameter of these two calibers enouph to make up for the lack of velocity?

Just curious since this discussion seems to hing on frontal diameter as greatly increasing letheality.

Don't get me wrong these are not meant to be smart-azz questions....I am just considering a 338/06 or the whelen as a next rifle and am curious what the general line of thought is on this.

Shod

Most people here agree that placement is king. I�ve never taken a big game animal over 350 yards and have always maintained that not only would a .308 Win would have done for every one but that a .22 centerfire would have done for most.

That does not lessen the fact that once the sear breaks the results are out of the shooter�s hands. Planning, practice and patience beforehand can help assure desired results while lack thereof can directly contribute to game being wounded and lost.

In 2007 I was deer tuning with my 7mm RM, a rifle I�m very familiar with, having used it exclusively as my only bolt rifle for 20+ years starting in 1982, and I shoot it very well. The bullet was a 140g North Fork, a design that has been proven over and over to perform as I want, providing reliable but controlled and limited expansion over a very wide range of impact velocities. Launch velocity was 3214fps according to the last loads I had chronographed. The rifle was zeroed right where I wanted it and I knew the trajectory out to 600 yards. Clay pigeons at 500 yards didn�t last more than 2-3 shots and the misses were small and well within the kill zone for an antelope, let alone something larger. A well-rested, quartering away shot opportunity presented itself at 150 yards when the buck stopped just before disappearing over a small fold. Murphy stepped in and the buck stepped forward and turned just as the trigger broke. Instead of hitting behind the right front leg on a line to exit in front of the left, the bullet hit the right ham. Nevertheless the buck was down before I recovered from the recoil as the North Fork had penetrated to the sternum. The bullet is on the right in the pictures below.

That year I recovered three North Fork bullets, two from game and one from dirt. From left to right:

.30-06, 165g North Fork @ ~2800fps
500yds from dirt, 145.0g retained

.30-06, 165g North Fork @ ~2800fps
~25yds from cow elk, 133.2g retained

7mm 140g North Fork @ 3214fps
~150yds from buck mule deer, 131.2g retained







While I�m sure a Partition or a Grand Slam or a TTSX or any of quite a few other bullets would have provided positive results on that buck, there are a number of bullets I would not have trusted nearly so much, including hunting bullets that are advertised to fly to flinders after 2-3 inches of penetration � it is a long way from a mulie�s ham to the heart and lungs. Moreover, what if it had been an elk instead of a mulie? Would enough shrapnel from a bullets designed to create a wound cavity 13-15� long make the even longer distance?

My philosophy is to shoot until the game is down and stays that way. While a large percentage of animals drop at the shot, not all do and when they don�t all the planning and careful preparation in the world doesn�t help predict which way they will go. They may simply stand still, they may continue on in the same direction, they may turn towards or, and this is the scenario that concerns me most when it comes to bullet selection, they may turn away. Give me a bullet that will work in any of those situations, not just the broadsides.

Isn't that the truth

Wow will you look at this! I was just directed to this post and cannot believe all this information!

Well for starters, I never imagined I would be deemed an authority or expert on this topic, I simply voiced an opinion formed over a very long time on a whole pile of game.

So maybe "right from the horses mouth" should clear a couple things up that some folks with great reading comprehension have already mentioned.

I've never said the 7mm mag or any other sub 30 caliber rifle cannot kill game. If I have written something that eluded to that I apologize. I'm sure having seen what is probably in the 100's of animals killed with sub 30 caliber cartridges that they most certainly do work.

In a past thread, I did write the phrase "hit em again seven" as was said to me by other Alaskan guides I worked with. I was in my early 20's then. The phrase and the experience I would have in the coming years would mirror those early sentiments by much more experienced guides then I was.

Moving Operations to Africa after a long career in Alaska, Washington and Idaho I found similar results. Probably even more definitive actually. There was never a point at which the 7mm mag did not kill animals, but the complexity to locate was significant. There was a point that developed in our minds that those guys coming to hunt would ask what rifle and bullet was recommended. I don't know a single PH ever to suggest with vigor a sub 30 caliber rifle would be best!

In what is likely close to 100% of the time, the suggested cartridges start at 30 caliber with the exception the "what you shoot best" trumps that "minimum". Why?

Well, there is a definite line in the sand where blood trails become consistent. That minimum is where the 30 caliber lays. It's about 20% for round numbers larger then the 270/7mm so many have mentioned here. So what is 20% ? would you like a 20% pay cut? a 20% cost of fuel increase, Pay 20% more for a home loan? 20% is quite a bit put into terms we can understand easily.

When you have had to search and track game for a living and see the heartbreak and sadness in the face of a guy at camp who has lost or not yet found the game he hit, it's brutal. Everyone in camp is happy and laughing about the wonderful time and success, but that one poor bugger is getting eaten up inside for the 1200 bucks in trophy fee laying dead someplace and we cannot find it.

Live thru this for 20 years, year in and year out. This involves 1000's of big game. On the order of 100-175 per season. It's not the "golden rule" it's an observation I shared based on what I know. Not what I read about, or heard from a buddy or neighbor, or read on the internet from some joker I've never even met.

If you're happy with the 7mm then by all means it's still America ....... use it be happy and enjoy your hunting and shooting. If you're asking what to buy or use for the future then take this opinion for what it's worth, what you paid for it.

........just thinking...............

JJ, if you don't mind my asking how do you feel about the 338/06 OR 35 whelen. Or even the /06 over 7 MAG. THANKS

SHOD

Thanks for the post JJ. Seems to clear things up a bit. I've always understood that bigger holes leak more blood. Seems to lead to quicker kills for me. Once again I'm not saying that smaller calibers wont work, they will and do. Just that some can work better in some cases.

Great post CH....

Shooting game is like real-estate,shot location, location, location ... All else is secondary.

Not aimed at you CH just clicked on your post I was reading at the time.

I just love this part of JJ's post....What,reading on the net don't count but experience does...Who would ever have thought after thousands of big game down that some joker would disagree.



Jayco

My thought with this quote is, so what? Others have lived longer, hunted as often and seen innumerable animals killed with very different conclusions....

Experience can be a great teacher, for certain, but more important than the quantity of experience is the quality of the experience. Any numbskull can purchase a hunt, how does this qualify them as a dependable example of marksmanship or apt at selecting appropriate bullets for any given scenario? Calibers are calibers, cartridges are cartridges and bullets are bullets, each plays a portion in the killing process. My issue is that what some suggest as "definitive" or a "golden rule" is as far from being scientifically deduced as the pontifications of astrologers, tens of thousands of dead animals not withstanding.......

I'll quote myself earlier in this thread.....

It was an opinion based on his experiences as a Guide in Alaska and a PH in Africa,nothing more.

And Jim himself said if you read his post,it is not the golden rule,just his opinion based on over 1,000 animals down.If you read my original post(This topic) it said.......

Food for thought or are your experiences different than JJ Hacks?

With far less animals down as Jim,my limited experience on the 7MM Rem Mag is the same as his.It's like shooting Elk with a 30-06 and 130 grain bullets..Same results/same reaction as I have seen a few times.But that is just my opinion from what I have seen with both and I know alot of you have had great luck with the big 7,just not me.

But that's opinions and there worth.A guy can take someone like Jims opinion or they can form there own on there own.Dat's what the net is about not someone with just a few big animals down has it down pat...

Jayco

None of us start out with 20 years experience that �involves 1000's of big game�. In fact, we all start out the same, with 0 years and 0 animals taken. The great thing about the human mind is we can learn from the experiences of others, whether that information is conveyed in person, by the written word in book form or via the internet or via TV or radio or any other means. If this was not the case we would still be living in caves and constantly reinventing the wheel. The problem is separating the wheat from the chaff.

We can also learn, and often do, from inference and interpolation and extrapolation of known data points. Someone that experiences ice cream melting quickly in 95 degree heat doesn�t have to go to Tucson to figure out it will melt faster at 115 degrees. Bullets that blow up at low velocity in water jugs or at high velocity in prairie dogs are not likely to penetrate heavy bone or penetrate deeply. If blood leaks from small holes what will happen if the hole is larger? You get the drift�

When I started I listened to my mentors and chose what they were using � a 7mm RM with 160g bullets. After 17 years with it my still limited experience gave me confidence to recommend a 7mm RM to a friend who has been my hunting partner ever since. After another 13 years neither of us have any complaints about the 7mm RM.

A .270 would likely have been just as good as we�ve not hunted anything larger or toothier than elk. For people hunting nothing larger than deer the 7mm RM is arguably more than necessary. (I�ve come to believe the .270 Win or a 6.5-06 are perhaps the best all-round deer cartridges, at least for out west.)

The only animal we�ve ever had to track was the cow Dave shot in the neck. We�ve had two elk that went 40 yards in sage and one that went 25 across open ground. Most of the others dropped where they stood or made no more than a few shaky steps. Some got back up and immediately took a second shot, going straight down again. After my one experience last year with a .338WM, I�m not at all convinced something larger than a 7mm or .308� bullet would have made any significant difference on any of them.

Placement is key and we usually do a pretty good job in that department. Bullet choice is secondary, to be sure, but not unimportant in my experience. While I�ll never see as many animals taken as JJ or others have, I�ve seen a cow elk lost after a close range, well-placed broadside shot with a .243 Win (unknown bullet choice). I doubt that cow would have shrugged off a 160g Grand Slam from my 7mm RM and in fact I wouldn�t have taken the shot for fear of hitting another elk after the pass-through that, based on my experience, would almost certainly occur. Some people with more experience than me recommend .243 Win rifles for kids and elk. Different experience, different conclusions.

I havent much experience with any 7mm mag other than the 7mm weatherby. It has always killed everything I have shot with it in a decisive manner. I must say, however, that I have never shot anything bigger than caribou with it.

They work fine on the larger stuff.Most people lay blame with the arrow but it's usually the indian.

So let me ask you guys, including JJ, a couple of questions if you don't mind:

1. I you're shooting a 300 WM and 180 gr partition, and I'm shooting a 7RM with 160 or 175 partitions, and we both drill a big kudu or oryx in the exact same place with excellent placement, which one kills better?

2. How many, if any, of your hunters sit around camp, stomach in knots, after shooting an animal with a big .30 they couldn't retrieve ? If any do, why did they wound it and not kill it with the big .30 ?

3. JJ, are you one of those "African animals are tougher than all the others" guys?

Who would have thought? LOL.

Like several others have said....it's all about shot placement with a well constructed bullet suited for the game at hand.

" Beware of the man with one gun, for chances are he knows how to shoot it well....."

I've only shot deer with a 7mm, and it was with 7mm-08, and mostly using bullets that were probably less than ideal.

With that said, I will shoot an elk with my 7 WSM-- with the right bullet-- with zero worries.

(though I'd rather be carrying my .338)

JJHack has also said that he's seen the bonded bullets kill faster than the TSX, and it bears remembering that in African condition, when guiding, an exit wound might be something worth sacrificing a bit of "quickness" for.

Using, say, a 160 Accubond in my 7mm and a 200 Accubond in my 300 WM I'm a little skeptical that a real-world difference in killing power exists on the North American ungulates. I could be wrong (I should trademark that).

If they kill the same, but the one that bleeds better with a functional means of quick recovery, which one is still a trophy worth eating and mounting? The one you find in 30 minutes, or the one you find dismembered and scattered across the bush in the morning? Or maybe not at all.

African game species tend to have very short hair, some like Zebra almost seem to be painted on stripes. Many times, ( LOTS OF TIMES) we have recovered a zebra or other similar size animal when shot with a sub 30 caliber, and even with a 30 caliber rifle.

When setting up for the photo, I get confused when I look at the animal laying without a spec of blood on the entry side............ then I cannot even see the entry hole? I have asked more then a few times " which way was he facing when you shot, Of course I remember but without a hole I get momentarily confused until I give this some thought. When the "side up" is the impact side we begin to look for the entry hole, lots of times there is a clean paper punch entry and no exit. Not a single speck of blood discharged outside the body.

In cases like this in thick bush, I wish you well recovering this 1200.00 trophy fee after a mad dash with the herd with dark setting in. In some cases they are killed in more open habitat making recovery a non-issue.

The comment "location location Location" is not the voice of experienced game trackers. It's rubbish! Killing has never been the issue. Proven by poachers shooting 1000's of elephants with 7mm rifles. They never went to recover them after the shot, they recovered them after the vultures and Hyenas led them to the downed game. After a week in the 100 deg sun the ivory slides right out. Fresh it needs to be chopped with an ax for hours.

Nobody with a sliver of education and experience in these matters would suggest that the 7mm as Bell used it was due to the effectiveness, it was cheap fast and he did not recover the bulls for a week or even a month after shooting them. He wanted to scatter them to walk away safely. There was never an intent to trophy hunt as is done today. Those referencing the effectiveness of the 7mm on an elephant are just being silly!

It seems like one of the primary criteria for JJHack is blood trail, which is understandable from a PH point of view. I've never had a problem with full penetration from broadside or quartering shots on elk with 150g Partition from my 270. They leave a nice blood trail, but since I've been lucky and never had an elk go more than 30 yards after being hit it was immaterial. That being said I've passed on many shots. I generally hunt for meat, so a "Texas heart shot" isn't one I would ever take. I find it particularly troublesome when I see neophytes blazing away offhand at a herd of elk at 600 plus yards,when they can't hit a paper plate reliably at 50 yards. I have no problem with an experienced shooter taking a rest and shooting in excess of 600 yards.

If you always want full penetration but are willing to deal with bullets not expanding all of the time, I think the TSX is the way to go. I'll stick with Partitions.

OK I'll give you that one.

But if its a 1 ton, 4 door, long box 4X4 dually Cheb, watch da [bleep] out, that things a 375 RUM, lookin to plow schit down.

Since this all seems to revolve around exit wound size, can anyone tell me how much bigger an exit from a .30 cal. 200 grain bullet will be vs. a 7MM 175 grain bullet?

Any studies done that can quantify the real world difference and how it does or doesn't relate to how quickly an animal would supposedly die?

Both Bullets being similarly constructed of course...


I don't doubt that the .30 is probably the better round to use, I just think its nearly impossible to prove it.
Thanks

Today's bonded core bullets are the best possible killers of any bullet I have ever used. The evolution of development over the last decade has been astonishing.

Even 6-7 years ago I was using the TSX but in my heart I really relied on the Aframes for the most important shots. That's not the case any longer. The engineering tweaks on the TSX and TTSX have approached perfection. It would take something phenomenal likely from another life form on a planet far far away to get me to switch bullets now.

I have not seen even the slightest dissapontment in a TSX performance now in many years. They are simply brilliant and just plain work under the widest ranges and conditions on every thing they hit. They effectively up your cartridge performance to the next level.

A 30/06 with a 165TSX is now far more effective then the 180 grain cup and core from the 300 mag. When the bullets ( or bits) from both are recovered the 165 is still darn close to 165 that is,...if it's even still in the animal. The cup and core will be in little bits and most of them scattered about in the flesh.

JJ, I'd appreciate an answer to these if you don't mind. Thanks.

For thinner skinned game (elk, deer, black bear) I prefer the Partitions, for thicker skinned game I'm leaning towards A-Frames and North Forks, but have no issues using the 570g TSX in my 500 Jeffery at 2300 fps. If you want a blood trail, that is the bullet for sure!

There is more bullschit and theoretical cock-suckery in this thread than at a quantum physics convention. Exit wound size this, 5 grains difference in boolit weight that. Jesus Christ, youre not engineering a jet engine here.

"This 175 grn 7mm Partitions exit wound was 1.1375" whereas the exit from the 180 30 cal Partition was indeed 1.1423" *pushes nerdy [bleep] glasses back up onto face and picks food from retainer* "Therefore the 30 calibre is undoubtably superior to the 7mm given like circumstances and atmospheric conditions."

Hit the mother fcker good. The rest is gravy.

When I mentioned the 35.whelen compared to the big 30s everyone clammed up tighter than a seashell.

GO FIGURE!!!!!

Shod

Archie,

Throw in slow on the uptake as well.

The post was tongue in cheek, meant to point out the absurdity of several claims in this thread.

Shod

The 35 Whelen is an excellent big game cartridge as is the .338 Win Mag and the .338-06 and a host of other cartridges in that category/diameter.With everything being equal,the 35 Whelen would leave a larger wound channel and exit wound than the .30 caliber bullets.

I was going to buy a 35 Whelen a while back but decided on the 375 H&H instead for know other reason than nostalgics.

Jayco

I shot my first mule deer in 1953 with a 270 using a Hornady 130 Gr bullet. Over the years I have read about hunters using various cartridges and bullet designs and weights. So far I have had one shot kills on mule deer with a 22-250, 243 Win, 257 Roberts, 25-06 Rem, 264 Win Mag, 270 Win, and 308 Norma Mag. All were using reloaded ammo. All were heart lung shots at various ranges. But I have lost one elk shot with a 270 and one pronghorn shot with a 308 Norma Mag because of pore shot placement. I have shot elk with a 270 Win , 308 Norma Mag, and 340 Weatherby. If I could have only two big game rifles they would be the 270 Win for pronghorn,and deer and the 340 W Mag for elk. I have two 7 MM Rem Mag rifles but never hunted with them. If I were to go after game larger than elk it would be with a 375 H&H and for the big Five a 416 Weatherby.

My questions were too. We all know the obvious answers to them, including him.

The problem is that while preparation, practice and patience and maximize the chance of a good hit, things can still go wrong. An unexpected gust of wind, a miscalculation, shooter error, equipment failure, animal movement as the trigger breaks -- lots of things can and often do change the intended results to something else.

Even after a good hit an animal can walk or run away, leaving the shooter wondering about placement and with the option of taking whatever shot is offered or risk the loss of a possibly wounded animal. It is that possibility that indicates using cartridges and bullets up to the task.

I doubt anyone here will argue that placement isn�t the most important criteria for success. Once the trigger breaks, though, it is up to the bullet and bullets are not created equal.

So a .308 cal 180 TTSX at 3G into a paunch will kill faster than a 7mm 150 TTSX at 3G into the paunch?

A 180 grn. .308 call Accubond will bust a Bull Mooses shoulder socket and hit vitals better/quicker than a 140 grn. .277 Accubond?

Fck me, I gotta let my family/friends know their guns is no good no more.

archie: you get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?

Never sir working nights tonight so I'm just pissed about that. But I just can't believe a 13 page arguement has ensued over this, with "legitimate points" from both sides to boot.

Just wondering, does a .257 Roberts kill quicker than a .243?

Ditto...Words of experience...Chit happens.

Jayco

legitimate reason!

Have you been drinking stupid water? The point is that after the trigger breaks it is out of the shooter�s ability to change what comes next � and much too late to choose a bullet more suitable to the task at hand.

No, shiithead. What I'm saying is, after the trigger breaks, and its out of the shooters hands...what is a 180TTSX in a bad spot going to do that a 150 TTSX in 7mm wont.

But you're so [bleep] stupid you saw past all that.

Look in a mirror if you want to see who�s missing the point. Most people understand I�m talking about bullets with different characteristics, not so similar they could be peas in a pod.

Im well aware of the point you're putting across. My posts were actually directed at the rest of the BS comparisions, and people who are legitimately trying to argue the fact in this thread. Obviously bullets are not created equal, but the basis for this whole argument is...well fcked.

A gut shot elk sized / type animal with a 300 Win Maq will run just like a gut shot animal with a 270 (maybe not quite as far), if you want a blood trail use a 45/70 with hard cast bullets or my 500 Jeffery with a 570g TSX. If you want them to be DRT with a good heart / lung shot shoot 150g (or larger) Partitions, North Forks or A-Frames at 3000 fps with an SD of 2.7 or better.

I wonder why? I've only shot one aminal with mine, a cow elk. At the hit sht went three feet, straight down. The 225 gr. barnes TSX at 2710 FPS at thwe muzzle. Elk as hit at 150 yards as sh ran in panic away from us and no, it wasn't a Texas heart shot. She was quartering to the left and the bullet hit just behind he short ribs and exited between the neck and the right shoulder. I'll be using that same set up on my elk hunt his cominf December.
Paul B.

Jack OConner said a good big rifle will always beat a good little rifle every time, he would usually add the caveat if you can shoot them the same.

Even so he kept up the debate with Elmer Kieth how many years?

I think it should be mentioned that there's a fundamental difference here: One person is describing his experiences with clients who pay lots of money to shoot a crap load of animals in a short time, while the rest of us have a whole season to get one or maybe just a few animals. Deer and elk are also probably easier to track. This may be the thinking that comes from hunting with a bow, but I don't mind if I have to track an animal 100 yards or so and I'd also not shoot at an animal unless I was sure of the shot. Simply filling tags isn't nearly as important to most people when you haven't flown halfway across the globe and paid thousands of dollars before you even start the hunt.

I'll likely never hunt Africa because that doesn't interest me, but I'd probably take an old .375 and use it on everything for nostalgia's sake if I did. But for any realistic hunting I, and most people here, will do, any 7mm should work just fine.

14 pages and I still reserve comment other than this was entertaining

Gentlemen,
What a load of codswallop. Rudolph Sand took 281 different species of game with a Shultz & Larsen rifle chambered in 7x61 Super and he used 150gr or 160gr Nosler partitions for just about everything (Used RWS FMJ's for some of the big five animals). I doubt I will ever bag 281 different species of game.....

Owe geez guys..A larger diameter bullet does more damage with all things equal.A larger wound channel/larger exit and more internal damage...

Where does it end..223 is equal to a .243 etc etc..Size matters.

Jayco

That wasn't the premise of your original post at all. You talked about things "running off", not exit hole sizes.

It's funny because everyone seems to have threshold for suitable calibers. If you bring up the issue of 22 caliber centerfires for big game, a large percetage of hunters will say it's unsuitable, but bump the bore say 20 thousands and the'll be quite a few that say, well a 243 is enough. Then there are those that say the 6mm is unsuitable and you have to go to a 25, or a 26, and so on.....

The thing is, things don't always go right in the real world. That is why most of us choose chamberings that not only work when everything is perfect, but also give us a margin or error in the even we make a fringe shot, or in the event the animal didn't read the script and just doesn't want to die quickly.

Very few hunters will take enough game with enough different chamberings to be able to make a statistically relevent statement as to what caliber seems to make a difference. Of note is that generally as calibers increase, so does recoil, and hence one could expect those using the bigger bores to make more fringe shots.

I have no reason to dispute Jim's findings, nor will I ever take enough game in the field to make a meanigful judgement. I'm not emotionally attached to my tools. I'll use 22 and 24 centerfires being fully aware of their short comings in some situations, just as I'll use 30, 35 and 50 cal when I want to stack things in my favor.

Excuse me little fella...Re-read my original post.I quoted JJ then said something to think about or are your experiences different?

That's it...You want to disagree with JJ Hack..Post the number of big animals you have shot...His are in the thousands and yours are in the -----------------------------------?

Jayco

Fact one...you posted his quote to stir chit. That's it


Fact two...I can disagree with JJ Hack if I so choose. Not to mention, he's not the one who said "hit em again" so....

...the "helluva lot more than you" range. It's not the first time I've though JJ made a stupidazz comment.

Are you sober?

Jayco

Your right Sgt...I changed it a bit.He said the Alaskan Guides called it the "hit them again 7" and after he saw more and more in his career,he agreed more and backed it up right here on this forum and thread..

Been in the AF after the AR...Good luck to you son.

Jayco

We've seen pictures of animals JGraider has killed, you, not so much. But that blue tarp you killed was [bleep] amazing!

Great Wapoozy....

This post is not about me,it is about what JJ Hack had to say about the 7MM.....Now if your experiences surpass his.....

Please speak up......

I asked a simple question in this thread...Food for thought or are your experiences different...

If you disagree with JJ Hack..Please tell him and the rest of us why and your experiences?

Jayco

It's about you being a [bleep] ra-tard, as per always.

Just what I thought...Just insults instead of experiences or data.Back up your opinion about the 7MM against what JJ said,or shut the [bleep] up and save your insults or PM me with them...

This isn't about you,it is about what someone far more experienced than you and his observations of the 7MM versus the .30's in several states including Alaska and Africa.

Yea lot don't like it bu thats the way it is unless someone can prove him wrong.

Jayco

Remember some of a PH's experience may be with some wealthy clients who haven't hunted or shot much except to get ready for a safari. That's not to say some of these folks who can afford it may be hunting 100 days / year and can out shoot the lot of we DIY'ers. Also there's more pressure on your shot when you've got an audience around (like the first tee on a Saturday morning) compared to still hunting by yourself. All of these things can have an effect on shot placement. The question for JJHack is, how many of these lost animals were shot with well placed shots?

All things being equal, stating the obvious, a larger caliber shooting a heavier bullet at the same velocity compared to a smaller caliber shooting a lighter bullet should be a better killer. The difference between a 7mm Mag and a 300 Mag should be pretty small. Step up to a 338 Mag or 375 H&H and the difference will be more apparent. The few animals (500 lb feral hogs) I've shot with my 500 Jeffery have shown a marked difference on impact compared side by side with a 375 H&H and 416 Rem. I'm looking forward to shooting something besides cow elk and feral hogs with it soon ...

Repeat slowly... I am sofa king wi todd id, I am sofa king wi todd id..

Maybe he can work on that in between his AA meetings.

I think turd cutter has a man crush!

Here's the thing. Just because he has killed �ber amounts of critters, this is his opinion. That's it. He even stayed that in his post, in this thread!






This quote pretty much defines all hunters thinking. Use what you shoot best. Ofcourse, with in certain parameters. Usally, governed by state level laws.


I find it amazing that logcutter seems entitled to post what ever he wishes, but others must submit photographic evidence of what they have accomplished to play. Pretty much defines double standard!

If you two nit-wits go the the bowhunting forum,you will see JJ Hack just shot his 22nd Bear with a bow.

Now tell the rest of us how full of chit he is about what he has seen with the 7MM Rem Mag and why he considers the .30 as a minimum.

Naw..You two would rather play romper room than discuss this topic.

Jayco

A bow kill further proves that holes in organs are what kill. Not headstamps...

I think I will trade my 7RM in on a 30 carbine. After all JJHack said "sub-30 caliber kill less efficiently." so it must be a caliber thing not a chambering thing...

If a 7mm RM is inadequate for killing game, then what the he!! is a bow? I am not arguing with JJ here as he has more experience than most, but a hole in the right place kills. I believe you should shoot the rifle you shoot the best, use the best bullets you can buy and take the best shot you can take. If it is a marginal shot, should you even take it? Wait for a good shot to present itself or let the game walk.
If it is the last day of a big hunt and a marginal shot is all you have, maybe pass and look back on the hunt itself as the great experience, not wheter or not you bagged an animal. I think to much emphasis is placed on the kill, not on the hunt.
It seems maybe this is an ethics issue that is being covered up by a cartridge arguement. JMHO

It is a tad interesting that aspersions are cast on the 7 RM and then the gentleman you are quoting sallies forth with...a bow?

That little factoid kinda guts the argument that alleges the 7 is so bad. Just sayin'...

I'm not in any way doubting JJHack's hunting prowess. But the same can certainly should NOT be said about those he observed.

Guys, I'm not sticking up for either position here, but I dont believe JJ ever said that the 7mm will not kill. He stated larger calibers can kill quicker. You're using the bow analogy, but missing the point. If I shoot a deer with a bow, it almost always runs some distance before expiring. Shoot it with a gun and it expires much faster given the same shot placement.
I believe that what he is saying is he didnt see many bang flops with that round. He saw more with the 30 cals. That could be or not. I'll take him at his word. Doesnt mean I wouldnt use a 7mm, it will kill. The majority of the time, instantly. Bigger calibers placed in the same spot do show there power on game. I've killed deer with 338 win, 35 whelen and 450 marlin. All were more dramatic than even the 30 cals I've used. All bang flops when the shot is placed right. Doesnt mean the 30's are useless. Just means that if you can shoot a bigger cal as good, it will probaly kill more efficiently.

I think the 7mm (R)Mag is a very good choice for what I consider very long range hunting - say over 300 yards.

So it's dusk on the last day of the season, Mr. Big Buck or Bull steps out of the treeline at 250 yards.... I'd sure as all hell not want a 7mm of any chambering in my hands....















..... I'd want it on my shoulder, going BOOM!

Man. Weird thread. I like bigger bores too (like my .325, .338, and .358) but having dis-assembled a decent number of deer shot with a 7mm rifle I sure don't question it's lethality. What a 7mm bullet does to meat is obscene, just like every other high-powered rifle I've killed with.

If a person is at all concerned about this just run a slightly softer bullet that still has some weight. Like the 150 NBT's Dober likes. Or a 160 Accubond. I've seen what Accubonds do, and that 25-35% of their weight they lose? That goes into shredding tissue around the wound channel.

And as long as we are diefying JJHack, whom I respect btw, he does say that the bonded bullets are the best killers. It's my impression that even so he prefers the TSX for the extra penetration. Fair enough. But a person NOT hunting African plains game might decide otherwise and run a bonded or C&C bullet.

As for me, love my 7mmRm !

Switched from .308 holes in favor of a flatter shooter back in 1980 and never looked back.

Elk in the mountains, vermin on the prairie, same rifle suits me fine!

I have no problem with hitting it again.
In fact if I ever did run into something as snarlly as an Alaskan Brown Bear.
It's my bet that adrenaline along would not have a problem with 'hitting it again' !

Enough adrenaline, as soon as the first bullet starts to slow down a little, the second should be there to push it a little deeper!

Till then, deer seem to stay very will in place. But if an elk as much as twitches, another is on it's way!

Over the years of owning and running a high-performance automotive business, I've come to learn a few things. Many people consider mechanics to be automotive experts, doctors to be medical experts, and electricians electrical experts. When an average person asks a mechanic what is wrong with their car, they generally believe said mechanic, because he's the expert. Here's the problem- a mechanic may very well be an automotive expert, just like JJ may be a hunting expert, but even so, different mechanics can give VERY different answers to the same question! An expert bases his opinions on a lot of experience, but it's still just an opinion.

Mmmm. The Force is strong in this one.

How can what is so clearly written be so difficult to understand?
Never said the sub 30's don't kill well. Never even implied this. What I did say, and those who love to quote should book mark or otherwise secure this statement for future reference.

The minimum caliber for consistant levels of functional blood trails start at the 308 diameter. This does not mean .308 is the perfect or best choice. It's just where lost game becomes less likely. We have over decades of hunting with 1000's of animals found that sub 30 caliber is far more likely to cause difficult tracking to quickly locate game.

At .308 we begin to locate game effectively and quickly. Go bigger and recovery is better and faster. Killing game is easy, finding it In the dark is not. Finding herd animals when they stampede away in a cloud of dust that settles on all evidence is not. Finding bears that are shot in the rain in SE Alaska will change your opinion on recreational hunting when YOU have to go find it.

As far as the way out of context issue with an arrow/ broad head compared to a bullet for killing power, wow again it's nothing to do with killing power it's easy to kill. Not so easy to find. How did this opinion get so twisted into a killing power context?

A well hit animal with a 4 blade broad head will usually provide a better blood trail then any bullet I have ever seen used. The rifle will In most cases cause quicker death, debilitation because bones can be broken. It is usually much shorter tracking. I have never had a bear run off more then 125 yards with an arrow. On average about 60-80 or so. I have seen plenty of lung hit bears and deer go 100 meters with a rifle bullet.

The tracking evidence between the two is not even comparable. The sharp broad head will have blood pouring out the whole way..... razor slices bleed like magic.

I'm likely done with this thread now. The vulgarity and crude tone is not something I care to participate in. If you want any thoughts from what I have seen Im glad to share. However Im not here to argue this or debate it with such horrible language. It's just not the way we should interact with one another. These thoughts on diameter are just my opinion. I'm not on Trial,under oath,or writing a document of fact for Wikipedia. If your opinions differ then be proud of your personal achievements which give you the confidence to use whatever you choose!

Great. You bastids broke JJHack.

Not how I read it, Mr Hacks response was quite reasonable.

No, I have not had anything to do with Mr Hack...nor do I know the man.

Actually, come to think of it....I have not read anything of his either, nor about him either....apart from these forums.

This schit reliably cracks me the [bleep] up,because it boils down to an expose on dumb [bleep] doing dumb schit,with rifles they don't shoot and an overview on their cluelessness in regards to projectile selection...while they point fingers and make [bleep] excuses. Boolits always have and always will,matter more than headstamps. Them who shoot a smidge will savvy,them who Pretend to,never will.

None of this schit is hard,though it is never not entertaining. In regards to terminal affects,as per the diameters cited as being the "quandry" (.284/.308),NOTHING matters less than the "difference" in shank diameter or "frontal" diameter...though it do define Mootitude. There isn't a scenario that could be concocted,to give an advantage to the .30 in terminal affects under average conditions. There isn't a scenario that could be concocted,to give an advantage to the .30 in terminal affects under adverse conditions. Nor is there a scenario that could be concocted to "illustrate" that the 30 is more "forgiving" of schit placement. What could be reliably extrapolated however,is that not all boolits is equal in them undertakings and that is a function of their integrity,not their diameter.

Though it is easily arranged to demonstrate reduced recoil,flattened trajectory,minimized wind drift and greater impact velocity for a 7mm of like case capacity. 'Course that [bleep] alotta folks up,burst alotta bubbles and will reliably have them who shoot the least,digging the deepest in their azzes,to concoct a ruse to the contrary with wares they've never seen/had/used as their "Trump Card". That of course assuming they can get the [bleep] box opened. Laffin'!

Reliably a tough call to cite who's gonna "know" less about barrels,boolits and ballistics,when forced to make a wager betwixt a Guide or a Client. Though I'd not slight the humor associated in their hashing out such "details" for the "win".(grin) Always enjoyed the adage: "Beware the man with one rifle..." as I'd liken it more akin to a gent who don't know [bleep]-all. Though in fairness,I'd say that the best way to reliably arrange "Luck" is to actually shoot and that dabbling more than a few diameters,in more than a few different compositions/profiles,in more than a few different velocity thresholds,will in fact reliably discern intel that can be counted upon in extrapolation to terminal affects. Not all things is equal and the greatest differences can always be attributed to projectile placement and projectile integrity. That [bleep] most folks up,which is more than a whole bunch funny in and of itself. However I did/do get a kick outta the .024" Ruse.

If only because there ain't too many 7mm's or 30's I haven't got or have shot,I'd proffer a simplistic FACT in unbiaed overview,that the 7mmRemMag operates in rare air,regarding both it's terminal and ballistic abilities,in regards to the felt recoil generated. By default and inherent attribute,such a melding makes it a breeze to do exceptional things with and I've long been privvy to them constants. Now there ain't no way to fabricate a notion to say that the 7mm's and 30's(along with all other bore sizes),ain't better implements Today,than they was in the past,due to advances in projectile construction/profiling. Them is all good things in my book and I happily await the boolit that is "too" accurate,shoots "too" flat and kills "too" good to be unveiled...as I'll simply procure 'em by the pallet. Until that time,we's at a rather nice place right now and it very often amazes me at how [bleep] many are too [bleep] stupid to hedge bets in their favor,due same. Ignorance is Bliss and for whatever reason,it is currently seemingly in vogue,for the most utterly clueless to try and somehow make Blisstitude "fashionable". I simply hope they keep commenting aloud,in regards to their "findings"...because this schit is absolutely [bleep] hilarious!

In retrospect,I've personally seen more issues in the Reliable Dealing Of Death(RDOD),ala increased capacity and diameter,than I have the contrary at the other end of the spectrum. That granting the courteous assumption of sound boolit selection. Why? Most folks don't shoot anything other than their Imagination and come crunch time,they are vastly unprepared and intimidated to say the least,of the platform they've curiously toted to the Final Testing Grounds. An intellesting dichotomy to be certain,yet all too often played out unwittingly and with aplomb. The obvious hurdle in the connection of them dots,being recoil issues and a gross lack of motor skills associated with placing crosshairs upon sound anatomical locations for boolits of repute to interact. You cain't purchase practice,nor can you purchase enough case capacity or boolit diameter,to negate the utterly reliable affects of good placement. I'll never be able to understand that because the shot is THE easiest portion of any Hunt to control,that sooooooooooooooo many,go soooooooooooooooo far out of their way to make easy schit difficult?!!?

Cheer up...all my '06's are stamped 7-08.(grin)

Agree (I think lol). The hard part is finding game, the easy part is killing it...

Work it, you nasty wench!

I cashed in 11 years of preference points on a pretty good mule deer hunt for me and a couple buddies. The two rifles I'm bringing are a 7 WSM and a 7-08. I'm all-in for 7mm on deer.

I killed my first deer with a 30-06, then that offseason bought a M7 in 7-08 because '06 just seemed like way more gun than I needed for how/where/what I was hunting. The next year I bought another one, a mountain rifle (that's the one going on my mulie hunt)..... and anyway that first 7-08 was my main blacktail rifle for 3-4-5 years. At that time I could get THREE tags some years so that rifle killed me a nice little truckload of blacktails.

With that paragraph of pure 7mm love out of the way, my M7 became a .358 4-5 years ago and has remained my main blacktail rifle. For the specific requirements of where I usually hunt them, that chambering kicks sand in the 7-08's face.

My two main rifles for elk will be the 7 WSM and my 22" .338. I'll carry both. Given my druthers I'd rather shoot them with the .338 but I'm not one bit worried about the 7 WSM, and I like carrying that rifle, and it has a bit more reach.

One final thought. I used to be pretty impervious to rifle recoil, pistols not so much. Got my bell rung bad last year and now I'm very conscious of recoil. I'm really appreciating how my 7's kick less; they've been my high-volume rifles this year along with my .223. My .338 and '06 and 300 WM and .325, not so much.

And one more final thought. I love my '06, and if I was lucky enough to be in Africa under his wing, and JJHack wanted me to use it, I'd load me up some 168 TTSX's to 2900+ fps and trust that the man was steering me right on African plains game.

I just have been amazed at how logcutter can bring someone else's opinion in his post and then get everyone's undies bunched up.

Never been to Africa, but if I went, I would take what my guide says has worked for him.

Have a blessed day!

When I go on safari, I'll take my CZ 550 in 500 Jeffery and my XCR II in 375 Weatherby as a backup. I won't be hunting elephant, but will be hunting cape buffalo and maybe a few head of plains game. I'll be shooting 570g TSX's at 2300 out of the Jeffery and 300g A-Frames at 2700 out of my Weatherby. If that's not good enough for the guide, I'll choose another ...

If someone were to ask which two rifles will be going on this year�s deer/elk hunt, I honestly couldn�t say. Earlier this year I thought it might be my two .308Win rifles (Rem M700 BDL and H&R single shot) but both of those got sold to fund an AR-15 purchase with both .300 Blackout and 5.56 uppers.

What I can say is I don�t believe it will make much difference what I choose - whatever I have in my hands in the field will be used appropriately. If that is any of the Marlin levers I�ll limit the range at which I�d take a shot. If the .257 Roberts, not so much. The .7mms, 30-06s, .300WM and .338WM even less so.

What I know for sure is what bullets they will be stoked with, as the loads are already developed and loaded ammo is on the shelf.

.30-30 = 160g Hornady FTX
.375 Win = 220g Hornady FP
.45-70 = 350g North Fork FP

.257 Roberts = 110g Nosler AccuBond or 120g Swift A-Frame
.280 Rem = 140g North Fork SS or Nosler AccuBond
7mm RM = 140g or 160g North Fork SS
.30-06 = 165g North Fork SS or 168g Barnes TTSX
.300WM = 180g North Fork SS or Barnes MRX
.338 WM = 225g Nosler AccuBond

Will fancy bullet make up for poor shooting? Generally speaking, no, but with the exception of the Barnes XLC, which I no longer use, I�ve not found where they are a detriment, either. In the rare case their design and performance may provide the additional penetration needed to reach the vitals or break additional bone, whatever. My first elk was my first big game animal of any kind and provided my first recovered bullet, a 162g Hornady InterLock BTSP from a broadside where one rib was hit. It took another 20 years of shooting 160g Grand Slams from the same rifle before I recovered one, this time on another broadside at about the same range but where both shoulder joints had been destroyed.

Better bullets may be a 5% solution, maybe more, maybe less. Having needed full length penetration once, I�ll take the extra insurance well designed bonded, monolithic or hybrid bullets can provide over standard Cup & Core designs. The choice of cartridge I find much less important unless going to extremes � in my limited experience the difference bwetween a 7mm and .308� bullet doesn�t make much difference.

If a man can shoot, a 7MM Rem Mag is a stellar killer of BG animals.

If he cant, a 20mm will be no help either.

Gunner

So an 18% (17.6 actually) bigger frontal area of a bullet makes know difference in killing power?

If the .284 is close enough to the .308 then the .277 is as good as the .284(I already new that.laughing) or the .257 is as good as the mighty .277 or the .243 is as good as the .257 and last but least,the .223 is as good a killer as the .243.

So what does frontal area mean if anything?

Jayco

I don't think that's a great comparison, 'cutter. It seems, and maybe this is naive, but when you start driving 140-175gr bullets around and above 3k, things just tend to die rather easily.

The only "frontal area" you need to be concerned with is the part they removed during your Lobotomy!

Tanner

Know one in this thread has ever said the 7MM isn't a killer.It was only said that in JJ's experience the larger diameter bullets make a big difference in tracking game mainly because of the frontal area.Who's to argue with his vast experiences?

That was my comparison..If a .284 bullet is equal to or the frontal area difference is know big deal,then the .308 bullet is just as lethal as the .338 and the .338 is the .375 and on and on.

At what point is frontal area meaningful?

Jayco

How about these differences?

no know

your you're

there their they're

to too two

Mathman

I just love it when people can't answer a legit question on topic about hunting, then come back with a spelling/grammar spanking because they have know/no/notta clue.

If that's all you have to offer on the topic,well..You figure it out.

I will however quote JJ Hack one more time as this maybe his best ever..



Jayco

In that case, this one is for you!

Sorry, recurring hints of illiteracy bug me.

I no the feeling!

me 2

I new you would say that.

Theirs prolly allot of it. I seen it on this sight.

And I new you would say that two.....

And arrogant little snot nosed flatlanders bug me....But dat's the net.We all learn to work through it but using it to dodge questions is/well chicken chit.

I am so/so sorry I stooped so low to answer such a remark...I am going to go and wash my fingers out with soap.

Please Mathman..Grow the [bleep] up!

Jayco

Take it easy. Grown up tough guys aren't supposed to be so thin skinned.

Your mean.

Yep. Jayco...try some of THIS....

Jayco �

If you have a Ferrari 599 GTO capable of 208mph (305fps) and a Toyota Camry capable of 130mph (191fps), which one will kill you deader if you hit a concrete abutment at full speed? The point is that more of something is not always more effective in achieving the desired result due to the law of diminishing returns. The Ferrari will take you that last fatal foot in 3.3 milliseconds instead of 5.2 like the Camry, but would you would be equally dead in either case.

More frontal area can be and often is a detriment to penetration. Given equal construction, weight and velocity, a 7mm bullet can be expected to penetrate further than a .308� bullet that has 18% more frontal area. Frontal area is only one element in the overall equation.

Over the last decade I�ve killed three elk with my 7mm RM and four with .308� cartridges (3x .30-06, 1x .300WM). The 7mm RM dropped them just as quickly because it had enough of the right stuff to do so. More of the same would not have made a detectable difference.

Since 2007 I�ve taken two mule deer with lengthwise shots, one intentional and one when a quartering away turned into a ham shot when the animal moved. The .300WM/180g MRX provided full length front-to-back penetration with an exit, dropping the deer instantly. The 7mm RM/140g North Fork provided penetration from ham to sternum, dropping the deer instantly. The .300WM/180g MRX may have had more �killing power� but both had more than needed.

Don�t get me wrong - while I like my .300WM with its larger diameter and heavier bullets for elk, I just haven�t seen the difference in diameter or bullet weight make as much of a difference as bullet selection.

Note to self: call it a "ham shot" next time.

I could never get my head around the concept of unexpanded frontal area counting for much in comparing different calibers that are very close in caliber and bullet weight.

I prefer to see the differences after they have hit game and actually expanded,since I think it is expanded frontal area that does the real work of wounding (in addition to the fragmenting thing of course).

I am ready to stand corrected!

Finally a grown up mature post....

CH

While I know that sometimes a larger diameter bullet may penetrate less,in the process it cuts a larger wound channel creating more damage and if it exits,it leaves a larger exit hole for a larger blood flow out of the body.It also causes more damage within.

I think we all know a bullet does not have to exit to be lethal.But having said that the .308/200/220 grain bullets usually exit as does the 180 depending on launched velocity from what I have seen.

CH...This post was about what JJ said and I asked if it was food for thought as it is to me or I asked if others experiences differ with JJ's.You have shown quite different experiences based on your hunts and that's all I asked although my experiences with the big 7 mirror JJ's...

Now to keep up with the kool kids/the clan/gang/bangers/dufers..You dirty rotten scoundrel,how dare you post your experiences with the little 7. You know I am kidding......

I am almost afraid to post i still love my .270 Winchester....

Jayco

I killed my first ungulate in 1949. Since then I've killed 200 or a few more with at least 15 different cartridges on two continents. I'm a big believer that if you shoot'em in the chest with a center fire rifle you need a sharp knife and probably somebody to help drag. By the way, I know Jim, have hunted with him, consider him a friend and recommend him without reservation. A good and honest man and a pleasure to hunt with.

I'm not going to try and correct you Bob ,because your right but remember...If everything is equal a .308 bullet will expand more because of it's larger frontal area before expansion, than a .284 bullet, whether it be a Nosler or Barnes.

Both will reach the vitals and kill the intended target but the larger diameter expanded bullet will do alittle more damage that may or may not make up for the shot that is off by just a tad.Sometimes that is all that's needed to hit a major artery or whatever....

And if both exit,the larger expanded bullet will leave a larger hole with more of a blood flow..Not that any of this really matters but it is the net.

Jayco

Same hear.....

I'm sorry not feeling the sympathy for JJHack on this thread. You start out with a "hit em again" title (even though he didn't start the thread or come up with the phrase) and you get what you ask for. There are a lot of PHs with a lot more experience out there than JJHack and while you will generally find some of agreement from them on calibers, bullets, etc. (they tend to like North Forks, A-Frames, Partitions, but probably because they've been around longer than TSX's and have always performed). On plains game, I've heard everything from a 243 to a 375 Weatherby.

For me, I'll probably bring the 375 Weatherby shooting 300g A-Frames and either the 270 Weatherby (shooting 150g Partitions) (if it's a plains game hunt) or my 500 Jeffery (shooting 570g TSX's )if it's a combined DG (non elephant) / plains game hunt. If the PH isn't happy with my choices, I'll chose another guide.

Well, hell, I hit the right ham low and outside. Missed the "Texas Heart" by quite a ways...

Jailbird hasn't killed a thing in his life other than a 12-pack and a bunch of brain cells.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Who can say whether a shorter, wider wound channel causes more damage than a narrower but longer wound channel? Moreover, if both achieve the desired result in a similar time frame, does it matter? The last four elk I�ve shot with the 7mm RM resulted in 3 exits and one recovered bullet, while the numbers for .308" were one recovered bullet, one exit and no idea where the others ended up. Not that the results were any different, because they weren�t.

Some of the largest exits holes I�ve seen on coyotes were caused by 40g Ballistic Tips. Conversely, the smallest exit hole I�ve had (which was never found) was with a 7mm 160g XLC. Even my .375 Win with a 220g Hornady couldn�t match the 40g Ballistic Tip for exit wound size. The size of the wound channel depends in part on velocity. Given otherwise identical bullets, for maximum wounding I�ll take a fast 7 over a slow .308�.




You do know your beloved .270 Win doesn�t hold a candle to my .280 Rem, don�t you?

I didn't but I do now because I read it time after time here.I think I just might have to sell my pre '64 Winchester Super Grade in .270 and buy one of those .280's so I can kill too.

Live and learn and hunt enough and a person has his own experiences.You have done good Pilgrim and like JJ,you refuse to get down and dirty and answer questions like a man rather than insults and vulgar comments...Your daddy would be proud.

Jayco

With respect Colorado,he did come up with the "hit em again 7".If you read JJ's post he say's just that.I just turned the words around some.I doubt JJ really cares what anyone thinks about his comment that he stands by to this day in his post or what you or I think about his experiences..

One thing for sure though,his experiences far exceed anyone that is a member here.

Jayco

Appreciate your and JJHacks point of view. Not agreenig doesn't mean we can't respect each other and each other's views. Good hunting and shooting to you and JJHack both ... and stay safe ...

Ditto sir and good hunting to you and yours...There is never a reason for all the vulgarity and disrespect for just pointing out a persons views or experiences.

Were all here for one reason...The love of hunting.

Jayco

I think GW must be right......do you even remember or realize the vulgarity you personally posted in this thread?

All the experience in the world doesn't preclude someone from being wrong or making a stupid statement. It wouldn't be the first time coming from him.

Does this have anything to do with your previous post you said: you could care less how much meat you damage shooting game and I asked you why do you even hunt?

If so..I stand by it...

Jayco

Not at al because I could care less what some drunk saysl. It has to do with you condemning all the cussing and vulgar talk on this thread and you're one of the biggest offenders. Is that simple enough for you?

I own 3 7mm rem mags. 2 of which I have hunted with. I have taken mule deer and elk with both - roughly 16 animals. I have had to track only one animal (6 point bull elk) - 15 yards. I have had everything else die within 5 feet of where it was standing when it was shot. I have used 175 grain soft points and 160 grain nosler partitions. I would not hesitate to use it on moose, sheep, antelope (I would pick a lighter bullet), cougar and black bear. I would want a bigger gun for Grizz or Cape Buffalo.

I truly have absolutely know respect for you/JeffO or anyone that just shoots game and could care less about meat damage in any way..

Why do you even hunt other than Internet bragging rights?I hunt for meat and meat only.

I would love to stay and play but a phone call from the Forest Circus said I need to remove my property from an area with a spreading fire.So Little fella..I guess your on::::::

..........Manly Ignore........

For now.

Jayco

That's good news to me on all fronts. I don't like it when people like you like me. Thanks! You conveniently left out the part where I stated " I don't intentionally waste meat.....".

JG, arguing with a ra-tard, is retarded...

And while your killing critters, Jayco is hunting "meat" in cell-block #2.

ROTFLMAO !!!!!!

You better sell that 270 fast and get a 280. If you ever need to track a deer it will be a lot easier to find if its hit with the 280.That 280 will make it bleed more.

JJHack even said himself he got the phrase from working with the Alaskan Guides...

If I do my part and use bullet that isn't too tough tracking is a moot point. I have dealt enough death with 7mm bullets via a 280 rem and a 7mm Weatherby to know they work and work very well. I even shot a moose with a single, well placed 140gr TBBC out of a .280 and it didnt go more than three steps.
Conversely if I flub a shot, its going to be a goat [bleep] whether I have a 300 mag or a 7mm mag.

There's the true reason for this asinine thread...

Jenny Finch likes it bigger too!




Video might make ya think that over..


Damn the women is fine..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_de3HJvO-N8

I should start by saying that I was never a fan of the 7MM RM. Then I acquired one that my Dad won in a raffle for $20, standard Remington BDL. I figured since I always hated the 7 RM, I'd prove to myself why.

I took it out the first time and it shot 1-1.25 inch groups with factory 150's. I then started loading for it and I'll be damned if that thing didnt start shooting consistently less than 1 inch with 160 partitions and IMR 4831. Just this last year, the 160 accubonds replaced the partitions and IMO, they perform every bit as good as partitions and shoot a pinchy better on paper.

For the last 7-8 years I've scarcely used anything else...and this coming from a hard-core 338 guy. My 338 has collected more dust than game since I started using the 7 RM.

I dont have a total on the number of animals I've shot with it, but its more than enough to know it works, and works well.

I'm also trying to recall the number of animals I had to "hit again" with it...3 elk and one moose. Of those, no second shot was likely required, but I error on the side of ammo being about the cheapest part of the whole hunting equation. All 4 of those animals were shot the second time within a few feet of where they were hit initially.

This whole BS about the bullets not exiting and giving a blood trail is also not what I've experienced. On the rare occassions that I've had to track an animal with the 7RM, blood trails have been akin to something stevie wonder could follow. I also dont have much of a bullet collection recovered from animals...cant seem to keep them from exiting.

Its also funny to note that the OP in this thread has never mentioned owning a 7RM...much less using one for any hunting.

Thats a joke, right from the start.

You obviously have not seen the impressive tarps that ol' logcutter has taken.

I'm impressed, cookiecutter has gone this whole thread without wanting to wrassle anyone.

Its not over yet......

Hopefully my crapper shot stays out of the thread.

Just because Logcutter is a supreme moron is know reason to dislike his sorry ass. The fact that he hasn't shot or much less hunted a big game animal in say, the last 20 years is pretty funny.


After one of LC's hunting sermons this past Winter didn't Greenhorn mention that his kid would shoot a bigger elk than LC?

Of course LC tripped over a stick and hurt himself a week or two ago so he won't be able to hunt this Fall. You honestly can't make this chit up.
Maybe we'll get a pic of some people he no's and maybe even a tarp shot!


Cue the chitter shot.......

As Stick would say it's the only move the dumbphuck has left.

Dats OK, we are overdue for the crapper shot anyway....

The dude IS a piece of work, isn't he?

Only dude I no who has a thing for pale white chicken legs!

At least someone loves you.....

Speaking of which, has Blackheart posted on this matter yet?

No. He's my buddy...for some reason he doesnt get mad at me, even when he's sober....

I get a kick out of him.

Hell, if it wasn't for booze I wouldn't bother posting either....grin

Blackheart and I just polished off a 5 gal bucket of Jungle Juice and we are waiting for it to kick in before we tear you chumps new ones.

Ive been pretty dry for a long time now, and I'm still here...

Just tryin' to be a role model......

No offense Tanner but for a college kid you sure do post a lot....I think you should be heavily involved in less noble pursuits...for the most dangerous game...


Make us proud.....

Tanner be careful..... According to Logcutter do not pass out if Blackheart is around and on the prowl. Not unless you're into sneaky manlove.

He will literally tear you a knew one!

Isnt he a high ranking official in NAMBLA?

It's not even 9 bro. Give me 2 hours and I'll be dancing with a random bimbo on a trashy ass dance floor to rap music... Alcohol definitely will not be involved.

It's called a schedule sir.

As long as you demonstrate self-discipline and stick to your schedule.

When I was in college one of my personal rules was to NEVER study past 11:00pm.
I stuck to it too...

or as logcutter would say..I stuck two it to. You no how it goes.....

I had totally forgotten about jungle juice. Huh.

Tanner...... us old farts need you to do like David Letterman's "monkey cam"... we'll call it TannerTube or TannerCam. Just wear a streaming video camera on your hat all the time. Let us relive the glory college days.

(When you are servicing coeds, I'll have my suggestions as to technique, position, etc. But first things first. Let's get TannerTube up and rolling then we'll fine tune it. )

Tanner for fck sakes pull out. Two of my buddies knocked women up in the last year. Im down to one hunting partner now, and hes married so hes basically fcked too.

Women will as a matter of fact ruin your life. They are a place to temporarily put your dick, nothing more.

Bang safely fellow gun nut.

Well put!!!

Jeff-o
Please do not encourage a student to partake and film his exploits to get your rocks off.
This is wrong.
He is in pursuit of female coeds, unlike yourself.
Thanks for your understanding.
Stroke yourself to your own memories from the Eugene gay bath houses.
P.S. if monkeys do it for you there is probably a monkey site you can pay for.

All I know is.......since I vacationed in Panama City a few weeks ago and learned how to make a top shelf margarita, I haven't been the same. Some old lady gave from Alabama gave me 2 VIP drink cards and the damn bartender thought I was a high roller and vowed to make me "the best margarita you ever had". Spent a little over $100 at the local liquor store, and I'm golden. Methinks Young Tanner has fallen under the same spell. Bad for a 48 YO old man.........even worse for a 18 yr old stud. You get 'em, Tanner. Give 'em something they'll never forget and make it hurt!

And the Patron silver is flowing freely to-damn-night!

ETA: and I thought this thread was about 7mm RM!

A cock holster.

Um, not to derail the current tangent by going back on topic, but...

See sentence below.

He said it doesnt matter. Its only gay if you push back.

I hear this a lot from people who use the cartridge extensively with good bullets.

I've got way more azz than you've got teeth, pard.....

I do believe this thread has gotten off subject. Maybe this will help...

Digital Dan warned me about her..............

That's Tanners freshman counselor.

That's my math tutor. Oral exams are the best!

I do feel sorry for you guys that have never had a good woman.

Grandparents were married 77 years on one side and nearly that long on the other. Older brother about 40 years, younger about the same. 31 for me.

Hope my daughters don't marry anyone like you guys.

What's wrong with beautiful women and knowing a lot of them?

No chit....

Jayco

Gee you guys are harsh....I've been married to the same woman for 38 years;and dated her in high school before that.I have a daughter,too.I don't need morality lessons...

A little levity never hurts anyone.Chill out! Cripes!

My beautiful wife and daughters are only to be thought of in the most respectful manner imaginable by y'all Neanderthals. In fact-- stop thinking about them at all! Now! This means you!




Now, will someone post some more pics of scantily clad bitches and ho's and skanks?

Congrats to your family on their relationships.

I wouldn't be interested in your daughters.

You and Sam are both OK in my book, drunk or sober.

He loves me too......
Especially when we're both ripped.

You'd probably be OK too if you weren't such a heeuuuuuge azzhole.

Dude, it's Friday..........
Let's booze it. I'm in.

No schitt ? I'm already on the way man ! Can't get too schitfaced though. Squirrel season opens tomorrow and I'm cravin' for some gravy and biscuits so I hafta get up early.

You dont gotta worry about that 'Yote Hunter, I'm gonna go ahead and stay single, make money, screw casually, fish, hunt and own toys.

Marriage is for lunatics.

Now you're talking.....
Give peace a chance.
No one can get me in a bad mood today.
Wingshooting starts up tomorrow.

Blackheart say, it shall be peace. Blackheart say, it shall be peace ! Or some such [bleep] anyway. There be iron in my words ! Good luck with the birds tomorrow paleface.

NICE.
Cyber handshake to you.
WTF? Paleface?

I think hes saying youre a white man and you drink redmans fire water. This is not skookum.

Just checkin' in.. Anything good in this POS thread lately except for the hot bird?

not really unless you value the humor of the 'hit em again 7mm' that seems to work just fine for guys that know how to use it

Oohh ok.
We were hitting it off and then he tossed a curve.
I am and I would drink.
I'm not normally skookum.
I'm still in a good mood.
Schit will die tomorrow.

Thankfully Rancho's 7 is a RSAUM..not a RM...so this article doesn't apply to him

We're OK amigo. Some limb chickens is gonna become gravy fixin's here tomorrow morning.

I'm hiking in about 3 AM and sitting on a hot wallow..

Where does the 7 STW fit into this? I guess if it bounces off of critters I better have it made into a 458 Lott.

I'm RSAUM too, thank God.

Sweet. It will be dove, gravy and rice for me tomorrow. Stay safe.

I wish I had a .280, then I wouldn't have to worry about my 7mm not being able to kill things..

Still wouldn't measure up in turdcutter's eyes.


Oh well.

Is that drunken, jailbird boyphucker stll around?

Some of the greatest global big game hunters to ever walk the planet have chosen the 7mm magnum as their primary big game round. For everything including Brown Bear in North America, all huntable species of sheep, all non dangerous African game. Quite a few Weatherby Award winners have chosen it. It has been used very successfully on every continent, in all of the worlds great game fields. It was the favorite of Bert Klineberger, the greatest world class outfitter in the history of big game hunting, who has killed more game than anyone on this board. Some of the the nonsense you read here is unbelieveable.

P.S--I don't know of any Weatherby Award winners who used the 338 magnum or 30-06 as their primary big game rifle. Neither round is a favorite in the big leagues of global trophy hunting. That's not my opinion, that's just the facts.

You're right about the 7 Rem Mag;and Bert Klineberger as well.

Other international BG hunters who used it included George Hoffman,the Texas hunter and African pro who sort of "invented" the 416 Remington (a/k/a wildcat 416 Hoffman); he thought the 7 Rem Mag about ideal for African plains game because people could shoot it well,unlike the 338,which many couldn't.

Funny you guy's should mention that. I shared a hunting camp in Namibia this year with Gary Ingersoll, a Weatherby, as well as Conklin Award winner. His caliber of choice for most of his hunting was the 7mm mag.

You guys just caused Hack to schittt his shorts again.

There's an old bad joke along that line:

I met a gal who liked it rough. "Give me twelve inches and make it hurt" she said. So I screwed her twice and hit her with a brick.

One mans opinion on the 7mm mag.ask other hunters with his experience and as others have already posted you'll get a different answer.Alot of hunters like the 7mm mag.it didn't get a good reputation because you have to "hit em again"

Precisely why I use a .280.. plus they're cooler

I have used the 7mm rem mag and it's clone (7mm WSM)on just about every thing. Never lost an animal, never tracked one more than 30 feet.