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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
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So it's dusk on the last day of the season, Mr. Big Buck or Bull steps out of the treeline at 250 yards.... I'd sure as all hell not want a 7mm of any chambering in my hands.... ..... I'd want it on my shoulder, going BOOM!  Man. Weird thread. I like bigger bores too (like my .325, .338, and .358) but having dis-assembled a decent number of deer shot with a 7mm rifle I sure don't question it's lethality. What a 7mm bullet does to meat is obscene, just like every other high-powered rifle I've killed with. If a person is at all concerned about this just run a slightly softer bullet that still has some weight. Like the 150 NBT's Dober likes. Or a 160 Accubond. I've seen what Accubonds do, and that 25-35% of their weight they lose? That goes into shredding tissue around the wound channel. And as long as we are diefying JJHack, whom I respect btw, he does say that the bonded bullets are the best killers. It's my impression that even so he prefers the TSX for the extra penetration. Fair enough. But a person NOT hunting African plains game might decide otherwise and run a bonded or C&C bullet.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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As for me, love my 7mmRm !
Switched from .308 holes in favor of a flatter shooter back in 1980 and never looked back.
Elk in the mountains, vermin on the prairie, same rifle suits me fine!
I have no problem with hitting it again.
In fact if I ever did run into something as snarlly as an Alaskan Brown Bear.
It's my bet that adrenaline along would not have a problem with 'hitting it again' !
Enough adrenaline, as soon as the first bullet starts to slow down a little, the second should be there to push it a little deeper!
Till then, deer seem to stay very will in place. But if an elk as much as twitches, another is on it's way!
Clinging to my God, and my guns!
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Campfire Outfitter
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Over the years of owning and running a high-performance automotive business, I've come to learn a few things. Many people consider mechanics to be automotive experts, doctors to be medical experts, and electricians electrical experts. When an average person asks a mechanic what is wrong with their car, they generally believe said mechanic, because he's the expert. Here's the problem- a mechanic may very well be an automotive expert, just like JJ may be a hunting expert, but even so, different mechanics can give VERY different answers to the same question! An expert bases his opinions on a lot of experience, but it's still just an opinion.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Mmmm. The Force is strong in this one.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Posts: 8,737
Campfire Outfitter
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How can what is so clearly written be so difficult to understand?
Never said the sub 30's don't kill well. Never even implied this. What I did say, and those who love to quote should book mark or otherwise secure this statement for future reference.
The minimum caliber for consistant levels of functional blood trails start at the 308 diameter. This does not mean .308 is the perfect or best choice. It's just where lost game becomes less likely. We have over decades of hunting with 1000's of animals found that sub 30 caliber is far more likely to cause difficult tracking to quickly locate game.
At .308 we begin to locate game effectively and quickly. Go bigger and recovery is better and faster. Killing game is easy, finding it In the dark is not. Finding herd animals when they stampede away in a cloud of dust that settles on all evidence is not. Finding bears that are shot in the rain in SE Alaska will change your opinion on recreational hunting when YOU have to go find it.
As far as the way out of context issue with an arrow/ broad head compared to a bullet for killing power, wow again it's nothing to do with killing power it's easy to kill. Not so easy to find. How did this opinion get so twisted into a killing power context?
A well hit animal with a 4 blade broad head will usually provide a better blood trail then any bullet I have ever seen used. The rifle will In most cases cause quicker death, debilitation because bones can be broken. It is usually much shorter tracking. I have never had a bear run off more then 125 yards with an arrow. On average about 60-80 or so. I have seen plenty of lung hit bears and deer go 100 meters with a rifle bullet.
The tracking evidence between the two is not even comparable. The sharp broad head will have blood pouring out the whole way..... razor slices bleed like magic.
I'm likely done with this thread now. The vulgarity and crude tone is not something I care to participate in. If you want any thoughts from what I have seen Im glad to share. However Im not here to argue this or debate it with such horrible language. It's just not the way we should interact with one another. These thoughts on diameter are just my opinion. I'm not on Trial,under oath,or writing a document of fact for Wikipedia. If your opinions differ then be proud of your personal achievements which give you the confidence to use whatever you choose!
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Great. You bastids broke JJHack. 
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 29,786
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
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Not how I read it, Mr Hacks response was quite reasonable.
No, I have not had anything to do with Mr Hack...nor do I know the man.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Campfire Ranger
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Actually, come to think of it....I have not read anything of his either, nor about him either....apart from these forums.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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This schit reliably cracks me the [bleep] up,because it boils down to an expose on dumb [bleep] doing dumb schit,with rifles they don't shoot and an overview on their cluelessness in regards to projectile selection...while they point fingers and make [bleep] excuses. Boolits always have and always will,matter more than headstamps. Them who shoot a smidge will savvy,them who Pretend to,never will.
None of this schit is hard,though it is never not entertaining. In regards to terminal affects,as per the diameters cited as being the "quandry" (.284/.308),NOTHING matters less than the "difference" in shank diameter or "frontal" diameter...though it do define Mootitude. There isn't a scenario that could be concocted,to give an advantage to the .30 in terminal affects under average conditions. There isn't a scenario that could be concocted,to give an advantage to the .30 in terminal affects under adverse conditions. Nor is there a scenario that could be concocted to "illustrate" that the 30 is more "forgiving" of schit placement. What could be reliably extrapolated however,is that not all boolits is equal in them undertakings and that is a function of their integrity,not their diameter.
Though it is easily arranged to demonstrate reduced recoil,flattened trajectory,minimized wind drift and greater impact velocity for a 7mm of like case capacity. 'Course that [bleep] alotta folks up,burst alotta bubbles and will reliably have them who shoot the least,digging the deepest in their azzes,to concoct a ruse to the contrary with wares they've never seen/had/used as their "Trump Card". That of course assuming they can get the [bleep] box opened. Laffin'!
Reliably a tough call to cite who's gonna "know" less about barrels,boolits and ballistics,when forced to make a wager betwixt a Guide or a Client. Though I'd not slight the humor associated in their hashing out such "details" for the "win".(grin) Always enjoyed the adage: "Beware the man with one rifle..." as I'd liken it more akin to a gent who don't know [bleep]-all. Though in fairness,I'd say that the best way to reliably arrange "Luck" is to actually shoot and that dabbling more than a few diameters,in more than a few different compositions/profiles,in more than a few different velocity thresholds,will in fact reliably discern intel that can be counted upon in extrapolation to terminal affects. Not all things is equal and the greatest differences can always be attributed to projectile placement and projectile integrity. That [bleep] most folks up,which is more than a whole bunch funny in and of itself. However I did/do get a kick outta the .024" Ruse.
If only because there ain't too many 7mm's or 30's I haven't got or have shot,I'd proffer a simplistic FACT in unbiaed overview,that the 7mmRemMag operates in rare air,regarding both it's terminal and ballistic abilities,in regards to the felt recoil generated. By default and inherent attribute,such a melding makes it a breeze to do exceptional things with and I've long been privvy to them constants. Now there ain't no way to fabricate a notion to say that the 7mm's and 30's(along with all other bore sizes),ain't better implements Today,than they was in the past,due to advances in projectile construction/profiling. Them is all good things in my book and I happily await the boolit that is "too" accurate,shoots "too" flat and kills "too" good to be unveiled...as I'll simply procure 'em by the pallet. Until that time,we's at a rather nice place right now and it very often amazes me at how [bleep] many are too [bleep] stupid to hedge bets in their favor,due same. Ignorance is Bliss and for whatever reason,it is currently seemingly in vogue,for the most utterly clueless to try and somehow make Blisstitude "fashionable". I simply hope they keep commenting aloud,in regards to their "findings"...because this schit is absolutely [bleep] hilarious!
In retrospect,I've personally seen more issues in the Reliable Dealing Of Death(RDOD),ala increased capacity and diameter,than I have the contrary at the other end of the spectrum. That granting the courteous assumption of sound boolit selection. Why? Most folks don't shoot anything other than their Imagination and come crunch time,they are vastly unprepared and intimidated to say the least,of the platform they've curiously toted to the Final Testing Grounds. An intellesting dichotomy to be certain,yet all too often played out unwittingly and with aplomb. The obvious hurdle in the connection of them dots,being recoil issues and a gross lack of motor skills associated with placing crosshairs upon sound anatomical locations for boolits of repute to interact. You cain't purchase practice,nor can you purchase enough case capacity or boolit diameter,to negate the utterly reliable affects of good placement. I'll never be able to understand that because the shot is THE easiest portion of any Hunt to control,that sooooooooooooooo many,go soooooooooooooooo far out of their way to make easy schit difficult?!!?
Cheer up...all my '06's are stamped 7-08.(grin)
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Campfire Regular
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Agree (I think lol). The hard part is finding game, the easy part is killing it...
Regards,
Chuck
"There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit"
Ghost And The Darkness
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Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312 |
Work it, you nasty wench! This schit reliably cracks me the [bleep] up,because it boils down to an expose on dumb [bleep] doing dumb schit,with rifles they don't shoot and an overview on their cluelessness in regards to projectile selection...while they point fingers and make [bleep] excuses. Boolits always have and always will,matter more than headstamps. Them who shoot a smidge will savvy,them who Pretend to,never will.
None of this schit is hard,though it is never not entertaining. In regards to terminal affects,as per the diameters cited as being the "quandry" (.284/.308),NOTHING matters less than the "difference" in shank diameter or "frontal" diameter...though it do define Mootitude. There isn't a scenario that could be concocted,to give an advantage to the .30 in terminal affects under average conditions. There isn't a scenario that could be concocted,to give an advantage to the .30 in terminal affects under adverse conditions. Nor is there a scenario that could be concocted to "illustrate" that the 30 is more "forgiving" of schit placement. What could be reliably extrapolated however,is that not all boolits is equal in them undertakings and that is a function of their integrity,not their diameter.
Though it is easily arranged to demonstrate reduced recoil,flattened trajectory,minimized wind drift and greater impact velocity for a 7mm of like case capacity. 'Course that [bleep] alotta folks up,burst alotta bubbles and will reliably have them who shoot the least,digging the deepest in their azzes,to concoct a ruse to the contrary with wares they've never seen/had/used as their "Trump Card". That of course assuming they can get the [bleep] box opened. Laffin'!
Reliably a tough call to cite who's gonna "know" less about barrels,boolits and ballistics,when forced to make a wager betwixt a Guide or a Client. Though I'd not slight the humor associated in their hashing out such "details" for the "win".(grin) Always enjoyed the adage: "Beware the man with one rifle..." as I'd liken it more akin to a gent who don't know [bleep]-all. Though in fairness,I'd say that the best way to reliably arrange "Luck" is to actually shoot and that dabbling more than a few diameters,in more than a few different compositions/profiles,in more than a few different velocity thresholds,will in fact reliably discern intel that can be counted upon in extrapolation to terminal affects. Not all things is equal and the greatest differences can always be attributed to projectile placement and projectile integrity. That [bleep] most folks up,which is more than a whole bunch funny in and of itself. However I did/do get a kick outta the .024" Ruse.
If only because there ain't too many 7mm's or 30's I haven't got or have shot,I'd proffer a simplistic FACT in unbiaed overview,that the 7mmRemMag operates in rare air,regarding both it's terminal and ballistic abilities,in regards to the felt recoil generated. By default and inherent attribute,such a melding makes it a breeze to do exceptional things with and I've long been privvy to them constants. Now there ain't no way to fabricate a notion to say that the 7mm's and 30's(along with all other bore sizes),ain't better implements Today,than they was in the past,due to advances in projectile construction/profiling. Them is all good things in my book and I happily await the boolit that is "too" accurate,shoots "too" flat and kills "too" good to be unveiled...as I'll simply procure 'em by the pallet. Until that time,we's at a rather nice place right now and it very often amazes me at how [bleep] many are too [bleep] stupid to hedge bets in their favor,due same. Ignorance is Bliss and for whatever reason,it is currently seemingly in vogue,for the most utterly clueless to try and somehow make Blisstitude "fashionable". I simply hope they keep commenting aloud,in regards to their "findings"...because this schit is absolutely [bleep] hilarious!
In retrospect,I've personally seen more issues in the Reliable Dealing Of Death(RDOD),ala increased capacity and diameter,than I have the contrary at the other end of the spectrum. That granting the courteous assumption of sound boolit selection. Why? Most folks don't shoot anything other than their Imagination and come crunch time,they are vastly unprepared and intimidated to say the least,of the platform they've curiously toted to the Final Testing Grounds. An intellesting dichotomy to be certain,yet all too often played out unwittingly and with aplomb. The obvious hurdle in the connection of them dots,being recoil issues and a gross lack of motor skills associated with placing crosshairs upon sound anatomical locations for boolits of repute to interact. You cain't purchase practice,nor can you purchase enough case capacity or boolit diameter,to negate the utterly reliable affects of good placement. I'll never be able to understand that because the shot is THE easiest portion of any Hunt to control,that sooooooooooooooo many,go soooooooooooooooo far out of their way to make easy schit difficult?!!?
Cheer up...all my '06's are stamped 7-08.(grin)
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312 |
I cashed in 11 years of preference points on a pretty good mule deer hunt for me and a couple buddies. The two rifles I'm bringing are a 7 WSM and a 7-08. I'm all-in for 7mm on deer.
I killed my first deer with a 30-06, then that offseason bought a M7 in 7-08 because '06 just seemed like way more gun than I needed for how/where/what I was hunting. The next year I bought another one, a mountain rifle (that's the one going on my mulie hunt)..... and anyway that first 7-08 was my main blacktail rifle for 3-4-5 years. At that time I could get THREE tags some years so that rifle killed me a nice little truckload of blacktails.
With that paragraph of pure 7mm love out of the way, my M7 became a .358 4-5 years ago and has remained my main blacktail rifle. For the specific requirements of where I usually hunt them, that chambering kicks sand in the 7-08's face.
My two main rifles for elk will be the 7 WSM and my 22" .338. I'll carry both. Given my druthers I'd rather shoot them with the .338 but I'm not one bit worried about the 7 WSM, and I like carrying that rifle, and it has a bit more reach.
One final thought. I used to be pretty impervious to rifle recoil, pistols not so much. Got my bell rung bad last year and now I'm very conscious of recoil. I'm really appreciating how my 7's kick less; they've been my high-volume rifles this year along with my .223. My .338 and '06 and 300 WM and .325, not so much.
And one more final thought. I love my '06, and if I was lucky enough to be in Africa under his wing, and JJHack wanted me to use it, I'd load me up some 168 TTSX's to 2900+ fps and trust that the man was steering me right on African plains game.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,401
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Campfire Outfitter
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I just have been amazed at how logcutter can bring someone else's opinion in his post and then get everyone's undies bunched up.
Never been to Africa, but if I went, I would take what my guide says has worked for him.
Have a blessed day!
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,147 Likes: 1
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,147 Likes: 1 |
When I go on safari, I'll take my CZ 550 in 500 Jeffery and my XCR II in 375 Weatherby as a backup. I won't be hunting elephant, but will be hunting cape buffalo and maybe a few head of plains game. I'll be shooting 570g TSX's at 2300 out of the Jeffery and 300g A-Frames at 2700 out of my Weatherby. If that's not good enough for the guide, I'll choose another ...
Last edited by colorado; 08/30/12.
Regards,
Chuck
"There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit"
Ghost And The Darkness
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
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Campfire Outfitter
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If someone were to ask which two rifles will be going on this year�s deer/elk hunt, I honestly couldn�t say. Earlier this year I thought it might be my two .308Win rifles (Rem M700 BDL and H&R single shot) but both of those got sold to fund an AR-15 purchase with both .300 Blackout and 5.56 uppers.
What I can say is I don�t believe it will make much difference what I choose - whatever I have in my hands in the field will be used appropriately. If that is any of the Marlin levers I�ll limit the range at which I�d take a shot. If the .257 Roberts, not so much. The .7mms, 30-06s, .300WM and .338WM even less so.
What I know for sure is what bullets they will be stoked with, as the loads are already developed and loaded ammo is on the shelf.
.30-30 = 160g Hornady FTX
.375 Win = 220g Hornady FP
.45-70 = 350g North Fork FP
.257 Roberts = 110g Nosler AccuBond or 120g Swift A-Frame
.280 Rem = 140g North Fork SS or Nosler AccuBond
7mm RM = 140g or 160g North Fork SS
.30-06 = 165g North Fork SS or 168g Barnes TTSX
.300WM = 180g North Fork SS or Barnes MRX
.338 WM = 225g Nosler AccuBond
Will fancy bullet make up for poor shooting? Generally speaking, no, but with the exception of the Barnes XLC, which I no longer use, I�ve not found where they are a detriment, either. In the rare case their design and performance may provide the additional penetration needed to reach the vitals or break additional bone, whatever. My first elk was my first big game animal of any kind and provided my first recovered bullet, a 162g Hornady InterLock BTSP from a broadside where one rib was hit. It took another 20 years of shooting 160g Grand Slams from the same rifle before I recovered one, this time on another broadside at about the same range but where both shoulder joints had been destroyed.
Better bullets may be a 5% solution, maybe more, maybe less. Having needed full length penetration once, I�ll take the extra insurance well designed bonded, monolithic or hybrid bullets can provide over standard Cup & Core designs. The choice of cartridge I find much less important unless going to extremes � in my limited experience the difference bwetween a 7mm and .308� bullet doesn�t make much difference.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
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If a man can shoot, a 7MM Rem Mag is a stellar killer of BG animals.
If he cant, a 20mm will be no help either.
Gunner
Trump Won!
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,295 |
So an 18% (17.6 actually) bigger frontal area of a bullet makes know difference in killing power? If the .284 is close enough to the .308 then the .277 is as good as the .284(I already new that.laughing) or the .257 is as good as the mighty .277 or the .243 is as good as the .257 and last but least,the .223 is as good a killer as the .243. So what does frontal area mean if anything? Jayco 
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Posts: 11,273 |
I don't think that's a great comparison, 'cutter. It seems, and maybe this is naive, but when you start driving 140-175gr bullets around and above 3k, things just tend to die rather easily.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Posts: 18,481 Likes: 2 |
So an 18% (17.6 actually) bigger frontal area of a bullet makes know difference in killing power? If the .284 is close enough to the .308 then the .277 is as good as the .284(I already new that.laughing) or the .257 is as good as the mighty .277 or the .243 is as good as the .257 and last but least,the .223 is as good a killer as the .243. So what does frontal area mean if anything? Jayco The only "frontal area" you need to be concerned with is the part they removed during your Lobotomy!
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
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Tanner
Know one in this thread has ever said the 7MM isn't a killer.It was only said that in JJ's experience the larger diameter bullets make a big difference in tracking game mainly because of the frontal area.Who's to argue with his vast experiences?
That was my comparison..If a .284 bullet is equal to or the frontal area difference is know big deal,then the .308 bullet is just as lethal as the .338 and the .338 is the .375 and on and on.
At what point is frontal area meaningful?
Jayco
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