Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles The 7MM "Hit 'em Again"

That's my understanding.

And for me, any big bears will see a much larger caliber then a .30. JMO, since I've never hunted them...

My impression was NA game he spoke of.

In my very limited experience with the .300WM (one cow, 180g North Fork broadside @ 260 and mule deer facing with 180g Barnes MRX @ ~300), both bullets exited but the results were no better than what I had seen many times with my 7mm RM. The mule deer went straight down while the cow stumbled about 25 yards before piling up.

I think the combination of bullet construction, weight and impact velocity makes a bigger difference than the choice of caliber, 7mm or .308�. For the first 20+ years I hunted exclusively with 160g bullets in the 7mm RM. The longest shot I ever took with it, a broadside at 350 yards, dropped a 6x5 bull where it stood. In 2010 my son-in-law took his first elk, a cow, with a .300WM and a 180g Winchester PowerPoint at 363 yards. It also dropped straight down but no faster than the aforementioned bull did to the 7mm RM. I know, low sample count.

It wasn�t until I started acquiring a pile of rifles in .308� (1x .30-30, 2x .308W, 3x .30-06, 1x .300WM) and shooting 168-180g bullets in them that I dropped down to 140g bullets in the 7mm RM. I have to say that for elk I have complete confidence in the 7mm RM with 140g North Forks but wouldn�t go there with Ballistic Tip or other C&C bullets. Not sold yet on the 140g TTSX for elk although TTSX and MRX have performed perfectly on antelope and deer. Still have a box of 160g North Forks and they may see some use this fall � the 7mm RM has been feeling neglected the past few years�

Last year I took my elk with my .338WM and a 225g AccuBond, the first with that rifle. I botched the first shot at 265 yards, hitting above the spine and a tad further back than I wanted. The cow kept walking, which is understandable considering the placement of the shot (indicated by the black circle in the picture below). The second shot was right on the money and stopped the cow but it remained standing. A third shot next to the second finally put it down. The third shot was probably not necessary but my philosophy is to shoot until they are down and stay that way. When I dressed the cow and saw the placement of the second shot I was really surprised she hadn�t gone down � especially given the number of straight downs I�ve had with the 7mm RM/160g and .30-06/165g loads with similar shot placement. You can see in the photo below there was nothing wrong with the last two shots, which made one large entrance hole.





Given that most bullets work most of the time, I�ve never felt it takes �dozens� of animals to determine whether or not a bullet works. I was unhappy with the 162g Hornady InterLock that I used to take my first elk, switched to Grand Slams and didn�t look back for 20+ years. Barnes 160g XLC bullets deeply disappoint the first time out as well and I used what I had left on paper and steel. North Forks have never disappointed me, nor have the Trophy Bonded my hunting partner used (he�s going back to Grand Slams this year since TB are no longer available as components), nor have the MRX, TTSX, Scirocco II or AccuBonds I currently use.



What? The 7mm caliber isn�t perfect? I�ll bet you told everyone in grade school that Santa Claus was a fiction, too!

All that is missing in this discussion is for someone to start posting pictures of a 223 AI killing bull elk with a 62g Tripple shock.

I think a guide watching clients shoot big-game is a piss poor way to judge the merits of any caliber. They dont know what bullets the client is shooting, what the clients shooting abilities are, etc. etc. etc.

Most clients arent nearly as capable as the rifles they carry...

I've been waiting for Barnes to come out with a 160gr TTSX to shoot in my 7WSM's. I've had good luck on paper and on deer with the 140gr TTSX so far and my Montucky 7WSM will have a mag full with said bullets for caribou next week.

Just a glimpse through this mindless drivel reveals a great deal more about the hunters/shooters than any cartridge/projectile combo. I've killed all sizes of NA game with all manner of cartridges/projectiles and the weapon makes very little difference. Those are the facts, unpopular though they are. Hitting stuff correctly is always the issue; the cartridge/projectile choice is a very, very, very distant second. Anyone, regardless of experience, that knows otherwise is saying much more about their "knowledge" than they are about terminal ballistics......

Not a TSX fan. Too many stories of bullet failure to expand at lower velocities. I shoot them in my 500 Jeffery but the size of the cavity in their .510 caliber TSX's is pretty massive. Never heard of a complaint with a Partition either with holding together at high velocity or expanding at lower velocity (below 2000 fps) out to 600 yards and beyond.

To me the 30 cals advantage comes with 200g bullets. A 200g Partition out of a 300 Win Mag, RUM or Weatherby at over 3000 fps is a beast. It probably is a good minimum for Alaskan brown bear. For all other North American game I'm happy with a 150g Partition out of my 270 Win at 3000 fps or a 160g Partition out of my 270 Weatherby at 3150 fps (though I wish they would move away from their semi-spitzer design for the 160s).

Barnes has a 168g LRX in .284". Higher BC (.550) than the TTSX bullets due to a different ogive but it requires a 1-9 twist or better due to its length.

I'm curious how does the 338/06 or a 35 whelen compare to the big .30s?

Is the frontal diameter of these two calibers enouph to make up for the lack of velocity?

Just curious since this discussion seems to hing on frontal diameter as greatly increasing letheality.

Don't get me wrong these are not meant to be smart-azz questions....I am just considering a 338/06 or the whelen as a next rifle and am curious what the general line of thought is on this.

Shod

Most people here agree that placement is king. I�ve never taken a big game animal over 350 yards and have always maintained that not only would a .308 Win would have done for every one but that a .22 centerfire would have done for most.

That does not lessen the fact that once the sear breaks the results are out of the shooter�s hands. Planning, practice and patience beforehand can help assure desired results while lack thereof can directly contribute to game being wounded and lost.

In 2007 I was deer tuning with my 7mm RM, a rifle I�m very familiar with, having used it exclusively as my only bolt rifle for 20+ years starting in 1982, and I shoot it very well. The bullet was a 140g North Fork, a design that has been proven over and over to perform as I want, providing reliable but controlled and limited expansion over a very wide range of impact velocities. Launch velocity was 3214fps according to the last loads I had chronographed. The rifle was zeroed right where I wanted it and I knew the trajectory out to 600 yards. Clay pigeons at 500 yards didn�t last more than 2-3 shots and the misses were small and well within the kill zone for an antelope, let alone something larger. A well-rested, quartering away shot opportunity presented itself at 150 yards when the buck stopped just before disappearing over a small fold. Murphy stepped in and the buck stepped forward and turned just as the trigger broke. Instead of hitting behind the right front leg on a line to exit in front of the left, the bullet hit the right ham. Nevertheless the buck was down before I recovered from the recoil as the North Fork had penetrated to the sternum. The bullet is on the right in the pictures below.

That year I recovered three North Fork bullets, two from game and one from dirt. From left to right:

.30-06, 165g North Fork @ ~2800fps
500yds from dirt, 145.0g retained

.30-06, 165g North Fork @ ~2800fps
~25yds from cow elk, 133.2g retained

7mm 140g North Fork @ 3214fps
~150yds from buck mule deer, 131.2g retained







While I�m sure a Partition or a Grand Slam or a TTSX or any of quite a few other bullets would have provided positive results on that buck, there are a number of bullets I would not have trusted nearly so much, including hunting bullets that are advertised to fly to flinders after 2-3 inches of penetration � it is a long way from a mulie�s ham to the heart and lungs. Moreover, what if it had been an elk instead of a mulie? Would enough shrapnel from a bullets designed to create a wound cavity 13-15� long make the even longer distance?

My philosophy is to shoot until the game is down and stays that way. While a large percentage of animals drop at the shot, not all do and when they don�t all the planning and careful preparation in the world doesn�t help predict which way they will go. They may simply stand still, they may continue on in the same direction, they may turn towards or, and this is the scenario that concerns me most when it comes to bullet selection, they may turn away. Give me a bullet that will work in any of those situations, not just the broadsides.

Isn't that the truth

Wow will you look at this! I was just directed to this post and cannot believe all this information!

Well for starters, I never imagined I would be deemed an authority or expert on this topic, I simply voiced an opinion formed over a very long time on a whole pile of game.

So maybe "right from the horses mouth" should clear a couple things up that some folks with great reading comprehension have already mentioned.

I've never said the 7mm mag or any other sub 30 caliber rifle cannot kill game. If I have written something that eluded to that I apologize. I'm sure having seen what is probably in the 100's of animals killed with sub 30 caliber cartridges that they most certainly do work.

In a past thread, I did write the phrase "hit em again seven" as was said to me by other Alaskan guides I worked with. I was in my early 20's then. The phrase and the experience I would have in the coming years would mirror those early sentiments by much more experienced guides then I was.

Moving Operations to Africa after a long career in Alaska, Washington and Idaho I found similar results. Probably even more definitive actually. There was never a point at which the 7mm mag did not kill animals, but the complexity to locate was significant. There was a point that developed in our minds that those guys coming to hunt would ask what rifle and bullet was recommended. I don't know a single PH ever to suggest with vigor a sub 30 caliber rifle would be best!

In what is likely close to 100% of the time, the suggested cartridges start at 30 caliber with the exception the "what you shoot best" trumps that "minimum". Why?

Well, there is a definite line in the sand where blood trails become consistent. That minimum is where the 30 caliber lays. It's about 20% for round numbers larger then the 270/7mm so many have mentioned here. So what is 20% ? would you like a 20% pay cut? a 20% cost of fuel increase, Pay 20% more for a home loan? 20% is quite a bit put into terms we can understand easily.

When you have had to search and track game for a living and see the heartbreak and sadness in the face of a guy at camp who has lost or not yet found the game he hit, it's brutal. Everyone in camp is happy and laughing about the wonderful time and success, but that one poor bugger is getting eaten up inside for the 1200 bucks in trophy fee laying dead someplace and we cannot find it.

Live thru this for 20 years, year in and year out. This involves 1000's of big game. On the order of 100-175 per season. It's not the "golden rule" it's an observation I shared based on what I know. Not what I read about, or heard from a buddy or neighbor, or read on the internet from some joker I've never even met.

If you're happy with the 7mm then by all means it's still America ....... use it be happy and enjoy your hunting and shooting. If you're asking what to buy or use for the future then take this opinion for what it's worth, what you paid for it.

........just thinking...............

JJ, if you don't mind my asking how do you feel about the 338/06 OR 35 whelen. Or even the /06 over 7 MAG. THANKS

SHOD

Thanks for the post JJ. Seems to clear things up a bit. I've always understood that bigger holes leak more blood. Seems to lead to quicker kills for me. Once again I'm not saying that smaller calibers wont work, they will and do. Just that some can work better in some cases.

Great post CH....

Shooting game is like real-estate,shot location, location, location ... All else is secondary.

Not aimed at you CH just clicked on your post I was reading at the time.

I just love this part of JJ's post....What,reading on the net don't count but experience does...Who would ever have thought after thousands of big game down that some joker would disagree.



Jayco

My thought with this quote is, so what? Others have lived longer, hunted as often and seen innumerable animals killed with very different conclusions....

Experience can be a great teacher, for certain, but more important than the quantity of experience is the quality of the experience. Any numbskull can purchase a hunt, how does this qualify them as a dependable example of marksmanship or apt at selecting appropriate bullets for any given scenario? Calibers are calibers, cartridges are cartridges and bullets are bullets, each plays a portion in the killing process. My issue is that what some suggest as "definitive" or a "golden rule" is as far from being scientifically deduced as the pontifications of astrologers, tens of thousands of dead animals not withstanding.......