Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles The 7MM "Hit 'em Again"

I'll quote myself earlier in this thread.....

It was an opinion based on his experiences as a Guide in Alaska and a PH in Africa,nothing more.

And Jim himself said if you read his post,it is not the golden rule,just his opinion based on over 1,000 animals down.If you read my original post(This topic) it said.......

Food for thought or are your experiences different than JJ Hacks?

With far less animals down as Jim,my limited experience on the 7MM Rem Mag is the same as his.It's like shooting Elk with a 30-06 and 130 grain bullets..Same results/same reaction as I have seen a few times.But that is just my opinion from what I have seen with both and I know alot of you have had great luck with the big 7,just not me.

But that's opinions and there worth.A guy can take someone like Jims opinion or they can form there own on there own.Dat's what the net is about not someone with just a few big animals down has it down pat...

Jayco

None of us start out with 20 years experience that �involves 1000's of big game�. In fact, we all start out the same, with 0 years and 0 animals taken. The great thing about the human mind is we can learn from the experiences of others, whether that information is conveyed in person, by the written word in book form or via the internet or via TV or radio or any other means. If this was not the case we would still be living in caves and constantly reinventing the wheel. The problem is separating the wheat from the chaff.

We can also learn, and often do, from inference and interpolation and extrapolation of known data points. Someone that experiences ice cream melting quickly in 95 degree heat doesn�t have to go to Tucson to figure out it will melt faster at 115 degrees. Bullets that blow up at low velocity in water jugs or at high velocity in prairie dogs are not likely to penetrate heavy bone or penetrate deeply. If blood leaks from small holes what will happen if the hole is larger? You get the drift�

When I started I listened to my mentors and chose what they were using � a 7mm RM with 160g bullets. After 17 years with it my still limited experience gave me confidence to recommend a 7mm RM to a friend who has been my hunting partner ever since. After another 13 years neither of us have any complaints about the 7mm RM.

A .270 would likely have been just as good as we�ve not hunted anything larger or toothier than elk. For people hunting nothing larger than deer the 7mm RM is arguably more than necessary. (I�ve come to believe the .270 Win or a 6.5-06 are perhaps the best all-round deer cartridges, at least for out west.)

The only animal we�ve ever had to track was the cow Dave shot in the neck. We�ve had two elk that went 40 yards in sage and one that went 25 across open ground. Most of the others dropped where they stood or made no more than a few shaky steps. Some got back up and immediately took a second shot, going straight down again. After my one experience last year with a .338WM, I�m not at all convinced something larger than a 7mm or .308� bullet would have made any significant difference on any of them.

Placement is key and we usually do a pretty good job in that department. Bullet choice is secondary, to be sure, but not unimportant in my experience. While I�ll never see as many animals taken as JJ or others have, I�ve seen a cow elk lost after a close range, well-placed broadside shot with a .243 Win (unknown bullet choice). I doubt that cow would have shrugged off a 160g Grand Slam from my 7mm RM and in fact I wouldn�t have taken the shot for fear of hitting another elk after the pass-through that, based on my experience, would almost certainly occur. Some people with more experience than me recommend .243 Win rifles for kids and elk. Different experience, different conclusions.

I havent much experience with any 7mm mag other than the 7mm weatherby. It has always killed everything I have shot with it in a decisive manner. I must say, however, that I have never shot anything bigger than caribou with it.

They work fine on the larger stuff.Most people lay blame with the arrow but it's usually the indian.

So let me ask you guys, including JJ, a couple of questions if you don't mind:

1. I you're shooting a 300 WM and 180 gr partition, and I'm shooting a 7RM with 160 or 175 partitions, and we both drill a big kudu or oryx in the exact same place with excellent placement, which one kills better?

2. How many, if any, of your hunters sit around camp, stomach in knots, after shooting an animal with a big .30 they couldn't retrieve ? If any do, why did they wound it and not kill it with the big .30 ?

3. JJ, are you one of those "African animals are tougher than all the others" guys?

Who would have thought? LOL.

Like several others have said....it's all about shot placement with a well constructed bullet suited for the game at hand.

" Beware of the man with one gun, for chances are he knows how to shoot it well....."

I've only shot deer with a 7mm, and it was with 7mm-08, and mostly using bullets that were probably less than ideal.

With that said, I will shoot an elk with my 7 WSM-- with the right bullet-- with zero worries.

(though I'd rather be carrying my .338)

JJHack has also said that he's seen the bonded bullets kill faster than the TSX, and it bears remembering that in African condition, when guiding, an exit wound might be something worth sacrificing a bit of "quickness" for.

Using, say, a 160 Accubond in my 7mm and a 200 Accubond in my 300 WM I'm a little skeptical that a real-world difference in killing power exists on the North American ungulates. I could be wrong (I should trademark that).

If they kill the same, but the one that bleeds better with a functional means of quick recovery, which one is still a trophy worth eating and mounting? The one you find in 30 minutes, or the one you find dismembered and scattered across the bush in the morning? Or maybe not at all.

African game species tend to have very short hair, some like Zebra almost seem to be painted on stripes. Many times, ( LOTS OF TIMES) we have recovered a zebra or other similar size animal when shot with a sub 30 caliber, and even with a 30 caliber rifle.

When setting up for the photo, I get confused when I look at the animal laying without a spec of blood on the entry side............ then I cannot even see the entry hole? I have asked more then a few times " which way was he facing when you shot, Of course I remember but without a hole I get momentarily confused until I give this some thought. When the "side up" is the impact side we begin to look for the entry hole, lots of times there is a clean paper punch entry and no exit. Not a single speck of blood discharged outside the body.

In cases like this in thick bush, I wish you well recovering this 1200.00 trophy fee after a mad dash with the herd with dark setting in. In some cases they are killed in more open habitat making recovery a non-issue.

The comment "location location Location" is not the voice of experienced game trackers. It's rubbish! Killing has never been the issue. Proven by poachers shooting 1000's of elephants with 7mm rifles. They never went to recover them after the shot, they recovered them after the vultures and Hyenas led them to the downed game. After a week in the 100 deg sun the ivory slides right out. Fresh it needs to be chopped with an ax for hours.

Nobody with a sliver of education and experience in these matters would suggest that the 7mm as Bell used it was due to the effectiveness, it was cheap fast and he did not recover the bulls for a week or even a month after shooting them. He wanted to scatter them to walk away safely. There was never an intent to trophy hunt as is done today. Those referencing the effectiveness of the 7mm on an elephant are just being silly!

It seems like one of the primary criteria for JJHack is blood trail, which is understandable from a PH point of view. I've never had a problem with full penetration from broadside or quartering shots on elk with 150g Partition from my 270. They leave a nice blood trail, but since I've been lucky and never had an elk go more than 30 yards after being hit it was immaterial. That being said I've passed on many shots. I generally hunt for meat, so a "Texas heart shot" isn't one I would ever take. I find it particularly troublesome when I see neophytes blazing away offhand at a herd of elk at 600 plus yards,when they can't hit a paper plate reliably at 50 yards. I have no problem with an experienced shooter taking a rest and shooting in excess of 600 yards.

If you always want full penetration but are willing to deal with bullets not expanding all of the time, I think the TSX is the way to go. I'll stick with Partitions.

OK I'll give you that one.

But if its a 1 ton, 4 door, long box 4X4 dually Cheb, watch da [bleep] out, that things a 375 RUM, lookin to plow schit down.

Since this all seems to revolve around exit wound size, can anyone tell me how much bigger an exit from a .30 cal. 200 grain bullet will be vs. a 7MM 175 grain bullet?

Any studies done that can quantify the real world difference and how it does or doesn't relate to how quickly an animal would supposedly die?

Both Bullets being similarly constructed of course...


I don't doubt that the .30 is probably the better round to use, I just think its nearly impossible to prove it.
Thanks

Today's bonded core bullets are the best possible killers of any bullet I have ever used. The evolution of development over the last decade has been astonishing.

Even 6-7 years ago I was using the TSX but in my heart I really relied on the Aframes for the most important shots. That's not the case any longer. The engineering tweaks on the TSX and TTSX have approached perfection. It would take something phenomenal likely from another life form on a planet far far away to get me to switch bullets now.

I have not seen even the slightest dissapontment in a TSX performance now in many years. They are simply brilliant and just plain work under the widest ranges and conditions on every thing they hit. They effectively up your cartridge performance to the next level.

A 30/06 with a 165TSX is now far more effective then the 180 grain cup and core from the 300 mag. When the bullets ( or bits) from both are recovered the 165 is still darn close to 165 that is,...if it's even still in the animal. The cup and core will be in little bits and most of them scattered about in the flesh.

JJ, I'd appreciate an answer to these if you don't mind. Thanks.

For thinner skinned game (elk, deer, black bear) I prefer the Partitions, for thicker skinned game I'm leaning towards A-Frames and North Forks, but have no issues using the 570g TSX in my 500 Jeffery at 2300 fps. If you want a blood trail, that is the bullet for sure!

There is more bullschit and theoretical cock-suckery in this thread than at a quantum physics convention. Exit wound size this, 5 grains difference in boolit weight that. Jesus Christ, youre not engineering a jet engine here.

"This 175 grn 7mm Partitions exit wound was 1.1375" whereas the exit from the 180 30 cal Partition was indeed 1.1423" *pushes nerdy [bleep] glasses back up onto face and picks food from retainer* "Therefore the 30 calibre is undoubtably superior to the 7mm given like circumstances and atmospheric conditions."

Hit the mother fcker good. The rest is gravy.

When I mentioned the 35.whelen compared to the big 30s everyone clammed up tighter than a seashell.

GO FIGURE!!!!!

Shod

Archie,

Throw in slow on the uptake as well.

The post was tongue in cheek, meant to point out the absurdity of several claims in this thread.

Shod

The 35 Whelen is an excellent big game cartridge as is the .338 Win Mag and the .338-06 and a host of other cartridges in that category/diameter.With everything being equal,the 35 Whelen would leave a larger wound channel and exit wound than the .30 caliber bullets.

I was going to buy a 35 Whelen a while back but decided on the 375 H&H instead for know other reason than nostalgics.

Jayco

I shot my first mule deer in 1953 with a 270 using a Hornady 130 Gr bullet. Over the years I have read about hunters using various cartridges and bullet designs and weights. So far I have had one shot kills on mule deer with a 22-250, 243 Win, 257 Roberts, 25-06 Rem, 264 Win Mag, 270 Win, and 308 Norma Mag. All were using reloaded ammo. All were heart lung shots at various ranges. But I have lost one elk shot with a 270 and one pronghorn shot with a 308 Norma Mag because of pore shot placement. I have shot elk with a 270 Win , 308 Norma Mag, and 340 Weatherby. If I could have only two big game rifles they would be the 270 Win for pronghorn,and deer and the 340 W Mag for elk. I have two 7 MM Rem Mag rifles but never hunted with them. If I were to go after game larger than elk it would be with a 375 H&H and for the big Five a 416 Weatherby.