Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles 300 WM vs. 300 WSM ?

And it doesn't with a non-belted??????..... [/quote]

No not nearly as much.

When the firing pin of a 30-06 hits the primer it pushes the cartdridge forward and it touches the shoulder and then it fires.

When a belted 300 WM's pin hits the primer the case stops on the belt and then it fires blowing the shoulder forward and stretching the case at it's expansion web.

I've had both and they can be very accurate, either one!

The difference is in power, the 300 WSM is milder on my joints.

MD



Still, the powders for the WSM work in that case design as the powder manufacture designed it to.

Curios though, what newer powders have you seen work in the 300 Win to enhance it?

Yep, that or what Winchester should have been: The 308 Norma magnum...

Why should Win produce or adopt a cartridge with LESS potential?

I have always liked the LOOKS and performance of the 300 Win Mag.

Some suggest that you can get a lighter gun in the 300wsm. Come on do you really want a lighter gun in a 300 mag. I've shot one for about 30 years and on the bench i wish it weighed another couple pounds. If your a couple rounds a year guy it dies't matter but if your a shooter- lighter isn't better. Opinions vary. ED K

So what you are suggesting is that a .30-06 (or other non-belted case) has to stretch from the shoulder to the rear while a belted case stretches from the belt forward. Regardless, both stretch.

Moreover, non-belted cartridges are perfectly capable of firing long BEFORE the shoulder contacts the chamber wall. I fireform 6.5-06AI cases from .25-06 brass where the only thing holding the cartridge in place is the extractor. The AI shoulder is WAY forward of the standard placement and as yet I've not had a fire-form cartridge fail to fire.

Here's another example of a cartridge firing before the shoulder contacts the chamber wall - a .30-30 fired in a Marlin .45-70. Turning the .30-30 cartridge backwards, the .30-30 will easily slide about halfway into the .45-70's chamber. Going the other way, only the rather weak extractor holds it in place, yet it fires easily:



15 firings of 7mm RM belted mag cases without a case-head separation is as long as I want to go . I won't take .30-06 brass any further.

Phobias against belts is silly.


..people fail to remember that belted hunting cartridges for big game were not invented for the convenience of handloaders.They were invented for headspace and to provide a solid stop for the cartridge,to withstand the heavy blow of a firing pin for reliable ignition under field conditions,where a rifle might be afield for months at a time.

A little slop in the forward area of the chamber was not a bad thing,as it meant a cartridge might chamber and go bang even if the chamber got a little dirty from so much use afield and exposure to elements.Uber tight tolerances might not be your friend under some BG hunting conditions; but slick, reliable function and ignition always is.

Concerns about brass life was likely not considered,as it is among rifle nuts and target shooters.But much of this is lost on us, as we are largely a nation of target shooters and deer hunters,neither of which is terribly demanding for the most part,unlike the folks who gave us belts to begin with and built rifles for people who dealt, on a daily basis, with the largest and most dangerous animals on earth.

Even for depraved wildcat rifle loonies, belts are useful....ask anyone who fireforms 300HH brass to 300 Weatherby,or 375HH to 375 Weatherby....or makes 7mm Mashburn brass....

No foldyroll with the front end of the case,jamming bullets, false shoulders for forming....blah blah...just chamber.....and shoot.

Long live belted magnum brass and to naysayers I say...phooey.

With mr 99 you just have to consider the source...........

+1 . Good post Bob

YEP! I've wasted my last breath 'discussing' belts with 99. He's been told MANY Xs.

The 300 WM was the first belted case I ever worked with and YES I had a few incipient separations TILL I read from a GW to size the belted cases JUST LIKE you size 270,308, or any other unbelted case.

In the years since, I fire belted cases till I'm ready to discard, usually after 8-10 firings.

SU35,

Oh boy, the 'designed for short mags' powder deal! Yes, Ramshot Hunter and RL-17 work well. But if you look at all the recent data, the .300 Winchester still beats the .300 WSM by around 100 fps.

My favorite powder for 180-200 grain bullets in the .300 Winchester these days is Ramshot Magnum. Excellent accuracy and top velocities (@3200 wiyh 180's and 3000 with 200's), which can't be approached with the .300 WSM.

bsa, one other thing I forgot to mention about belted brass....pretty much all of it comes outta the box with lots of space for powder,ie, generous powder capacity.

Mule Deer



You must be loading pretty aggressive with RS Magnum.

The published (older) data I have shows a max load for the 200 Nosler Partition at 81.7 grains for 2,864 with a pressure of 63,288 psi.

It also shows the 180 Hornaday BTSP at 86 grains for 3,020 at 61,158 psi

Showing the linear method from RS data RS Magnum for the 200 Partition shows.

77,0......79.0....81.7.....
2,721.....2,789...2,864....
57,778....59,098..63,288...

For Mule Deer to get 3,000 fps with a 200 he would have to be about 68,000 psi using 86.1 grains (+4.47 grains for 30.4 fps per grain, for 1,172 psi per grain) Give or take a chamber and COAL.

QL shows 83.0 grains for 3,010 at 64,597 psi. FWIW




They do indeed work don't they, just as designed.

Shooting the 300 WSM and the 180 Hornaday BTSP (same bullet as above in the 300 Win)

When using RS Hunter data, I get
70.5 grains 3,008 fps at 61, 620 psi.

This shows a difference between the two cartridges at
15.5 grains less for the 300 WSM (differ powder of course)

86.0 in the 300 Win Mag vs 70.5 grains in the 300 WSM

3,020 fps for the 300 Win
3,008 fps for the 300 WSM

61,158 psi for the 300 Win
61,620 psi for the 300 WSM

I'll bet, if I load the 300 WSM to Mule Deer's pressures I'll get the same results in my 300 WSM as he is getting with his 300 Win mag or very, very close, within 30 to 50 fps.

For a field advantage of zip when using the 300 Win mag.

In the end the rational arguments for the WM vs the WSM pretty much come down to these:

1. Cost and availability of factory ammo and/or components.
2. Value of the extra velocity, if any, one cartridge can provide over the other.
3. The features of individual rifles being considered (factory or custom).
4. Personal goals and preferences.

A note about personal goals and preferences. Making a decision based on personal goals and preferences is perfectly rational, even if those goals and preferences are based on subjective opinions and desires rather than rational arguments and/or quantitative facts. (I.e. a person likes the look and feel of one cartridge better than the other, has a general disdain for belts, just wants to get something different than what his buddy has, etc.).

As a hunting cartridge, what one can do the other can do in all but the most extreme situations. Differences in individual rifles will easily overshadow any differences in the �inherent accuracy� of one cartridge over the other. Assuming a 100fps or even 200fps advantage for one over the other, differences on game will be virtually undetectable at ranges well beyond where most game is taken.

All other factors being equal, the cartridge makes little difference. When it came time for me to choose, the choice of a .300WM was purely opportunistic, based on the rifle and price. To my advantage, most folks didn�t care for the rifle, a �boat paddle� Ruger, which is why it was a closeout special at Sportsman�s Warehouse. Had the same rifle been chambered for a .300WSM I would have bought it just as quickly. I�ve only hunted elk with the .300WM twice and both times the results were the same - quick, clean one-shot kills.

From 2012:

From 2012 too 300 Winchester belted mag 150 E Tip

Other than velocity w/bullets over 180 gr, they're a horse a piece in every department. Plenty of brass, factory ammo, factory rifles to pick from for both. Unless you plan on using 200-220 gr bullets all the time, let the rifle you like best decide what you get.

SU35--

First off, you stated you had OLDER stats.

Try some NEW ones. This from NOSLER #7.

180 NP

IMR 4350 >>3130 FPS
----------------------Compare YOUR stats at 3008 & 3020
IMR 4831 >>3160 FPS

Nosler 7 does not list Ramshot Magnum.


QL list APPROXIMATIONS not pressure testing!

I personally have been using IMR 4350 @ 3120fps for yrs.

You can draw your own conclusions.

SU35,

The current Ramshot data (which you can view on their website)contains these loads for the .300 Winchester Magnum:

180 Sierra GK/ 86.5 Magnum/ 3193 fps/ 63,770 psi
200 Nosler Partition/ 84.4 Magnum/ 3011 fps/ 63,189

Believe me, I've burned a bunch of Hunter, RL-17 and other designer powders in the .300 WSM (among several short magnums). None have come close to the .300 Winchester with the right powder.

Right now I'm working on an article about the short mags, and went through all the latest data for the .300 WSM. The fastest listed velocity for 180's from ANY source was 3082 from Alliant. The second was 3057 from Nosler, and all the rest hovered around 3000.

I bought my .300 WM M70 Classic Stainless just before the WSM and RUM came out and have watched with great interest how each has progressed.
And at this point I have absolutely no desire to switch to either one.