Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles barrel vs action for accuracy?

I have a 98 mauser actioned target rifle with a Shilen ultra match .308 tube on it. Action blueprinted with Timney match trigger. The rifle still shoots .10" to .30" just not with me any more. I agree barrel and smith important factors.

3 B's actually, with bullets the third.....

You know, I'm not real sure anyone can give an honest, unbiased answer.
In the end, it sort of depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you are trying for BR level accuracy (today, that means a consistent sub-.2MOA), a flaw in any part of the outfit can cause the whole thing to go into the ditch. If you are looking for consistent hunting accuracy (one MOA or less), you can accomplish this with some pretty mediocre components. I was out the other day sighting in an old #4 Lee Enfield sporter which I had re-barreled to 30/40 Krag using a discarded Sportco barrel. I fired several sub-MOA groups and have done so with this rifle many times over the last 35 years. The Sportco barrel is really pretty nice (smooth, straight, and uniform) but the Lee Enfield action has numerous shortcomings as a precision action. It flexes, it has a locktime which almost allows you to change your mind after you pull the trigger. Still, with loads it likes, it has always shot well and I hunt with it every year.
I have had a few barrels which I have switched to different actions and, when the rifle configuration was similar, the results were as well.
I had one Hart barrel which I had installed on a Ruger 77 action which was glued into a Lee Six BR stock. The barrel was chambered in 30/40 Krag. Accuracy was pretty good but not really competitive at BR levels but it would agg in the low .3MOA range. Later on, I took this rifle apart and set the barrel back, rechambered to 308 with a tight neck and fitted it to a sleeved 40X action which is glued into a laminated stock. It shot an aggregate of around .350. I then rechambered with my 308 "F" class reamer and fitted the barrel to a Model 70 action which is bedded in a laminated stock. I have not fired it in a BR match because it is no longer configured that way but five shot groups at 100 are usually sub 1/2 MOA and it stays around two inches at three hundred meters. This barrel did indeed seem to shoot about the same with three different chambers and on three different actions. By the way, the sleeved 40X action usually carries a heavy Hart barrel in 308 and produces ten-shot groups at 300 meters of an inch or less quite consistently. In this case, the action and stock are good enough to show the difference in barrels.
When it comes to hunting rifles, the rifle configuration has a huge inpact on performance. I have fired some pretty fine groups with hunting rifles over the years but I have backed these up with some groups which were, shall we say, less than impressive. A nine pound 308 Norma is just a bit more difficult to shoot consistently than is a 13 pound 308 Winchester. Still, it seems like a good shooting barrel on a Mauser will still shoot well on a Model 70 and so on. The other thing which has become quite apparent is that it is hard to definitely say a barrel is good or bad without shooting it. I have fired some pretty ugly barrel which produced consistently good, sometimes exceptional, accuracy. On the other hand, I have tested some barrels which, while they appeared to be great barrels, shot like crap and need serious remedial work to get them to perform. In one case I removed a barrel which shot quite well because it looked so bad through the borescope that I couldn't live with it. I replaced it with a highly touted after market barrel and tripled my group size just like that! The replacement barrel didn't start to produce decent accuracy until it was lapped.
Ultimately, I don't think anyone would say a good action or good barrel is not to be desired. I do think one should match his components to his expectations. If you want BR accuracy, you want a BR rifle with a rigid, precise action and a quality barrel. If you want a dependable hunting rifle which is sufficiently accurate to do it's job, you want a rugged but well built action and a barrel which will perform as desired.
Rifles, whether for hunting or target use, are a very simple tool which has to perform a pretty straightforward task. Nonetheless, when we strat out to build or buy one, there are numerous ways to arrive at the same result. If there were not, we wouldn't be able to waste so much time discussing them. GD

Start with a good trigger and a rifle that fits first, those two things are most important in shooting well either on the rifle range or in the field. A crappy trigger and a poor fitting rifle will be a sows ear even with the very very best barrel you can buy. After those two things, a proper bedding job might be all that is required. Still not satisfied, then recrown the barrel you have and try another scope, yours might have gone south. After you do all of that and still not satisfied, the a new barrel might be in order, over 50 years of shooting and hunting I come across only two barrels on guns I bought that had to be replaced. I re barreled a lot of guns over the years mainly because I wanted to. All this aside its the main reason is because you want to.

Greydog I have done a lot of barrel swapping as you describe. I still subscribe to the theory that the barrel is most important, barring any shortcomings in the rest of the system.

I have swapped BR barrels between different BR rifles trying to figure out which action was the best. It did not take long to figure out that the best barrels won out. I used to own two remington 700s that were fully trued by Bob Brackney. Those were the BR rifles I started out with in BR. Bob did an amazing job on those truing jobs. The headspace was as close to being the same as I have ever seen when barrels were swapped between them. My LV was shooting lights freaking out, while my HV was shooting just okay. I swapped barrels on them and it was apparent the short coming of the HV was the barrel. I know it is anecdotal but that and several other similar circumstances convinced me. I hear that Tony Bower used to go through 30-40 barrels a year just hunting good ones. It is hard to argue with his success in BR.

I now use mostly custom actions, but I cannot say that they have more accuracy potential than a good sleeved and trued 700. Don Geraci and I have discussed this matter in depth numerous times. I think along the same lines as he. Not all barrels even from the same manufacturer with sequential manufacturing numbers are created equal. I most recently saw this on 3 280AIs I me and 2 buddies put together. One of the barrels just will not shoot under 1/2 MOA and takes 2 grains less powder to reach pressure signs no matter which of the 3 actions it was tried on.

I learned the importance of a quality barrel screwing my own rifles together. Here is group from a Pac-Nor prefit Savage barrel, 1:9" twist polygonal rifled barrel, chambered in .223 Remington. The rifle was assembled by me on a new bare Dual Port Savage Precision Target Action, the barrel simply screwed on and headspaced. Stock was factory benchrest style ordered as a replacement part and stress free bedded. 10 shots @ 100 yards:



Yet another Savage prefit from Sharp Shooter Supply, screwed on to a right bolt, right port Savage target action. A Brux 6mm, 26" 1:8" twist barrel chambered for the .243 WSSM shooting 62 grain Varmint Grenades. This is a sight-in group that required two clicks to the left. Ten Shots @ 100 yards:



The photos below are a home Modified Colt M-4 carbine and a typical group. The AR-15/M-4 action is probably the worse action for accuracy in the history of man. The barrel is a Hart custom made to my specifications, chambered in .204 Ruger. The upper is a Fulton Armory Side Cocking assembly, setup as a straight pull bolt action. .204 Ruger chamber. If I ever learn to shoot the darn thing it'll probably be fairly accurate.





Finally here is a what a little gunsmithing and a lot of hobby work can cobble together. The action is a new bare Remington 700 action that was modified by a smith to equip it with a dual pin precision recoil lug, bushed firing pin, and double sleeved bolt. I did the rest, switching the X-Mark Pro trigger out for a Jewel, adding the B&C M-4 stock and Ken Farrell glass bedded base. The rifle has two barrels, one a .22-250 Bergara and a Pac-Nor .22-250 Ackley barrel with muzzle brake and savage style barrel nut.



I spun the Bergara barrel on while waiting for the Pac-Nor, loaded a couple of loads and went to the range. Given that the red diamonds are .5" square, it wasn't too bad a shooter for barrel that cost less than $300, keeping in mind that Bergara uses state of the art production methods.



The .22-250 Ackley and .22-250 cartridges work surprisingly well through the Wyatt DBM. I am waiting for a Pac-Nor barrel in .308 Winchester.

So is it action or barrel? I say barrel, but you decide. Then always buy the best you can afford, and seldom be disappointed.

EddyBo,
I don't disagree with anything you say. I also believe the barrel is the main thing; especially at BR levels. I recall another Hart I had on a Light Varmint rifle which I had built on a Wichita Mini action. This was my first PPC, by the way, and was certainly the most accurate rifle I had owned up to that point. After about 1200 rounds, the barrel was still shooting but not at quite the same level. I pulled it and set it back and fitted it to a 40X I had as my backup rifle. It shot just like it did on the Wichita and really brought the old 40X back to life.
It took me two more barrels to get the Wichita back in the winner's circle.
Some actions have idiosyncrasies which may have an effect on accuracy. The Lee Enfields have a tendency to string shots vertically with low velocity shots hitting high and high velocity shots hitting low. This was taken advantage of by target shooters who found this tendency to compensate for velocity variations in the ammunition. At 800 to 900 yards, Lee Enfield based rifles would shoot a level group as external ballistics made up for the close range vertical dispersion.
I noted the same tendency, though to a much lesser extent, ina Light Varmint rifle I built on a 788 Remington action. This rifle shot groups with about .325" of vertical at 100 yards; low velocity shots high, high velocity shots low. Not really competitive and it had to be a pretty windy day for me to accomplish much with this rifle. At two hundred though, the vertical was just about the same and the rifle shot nice, round groups of around .350".
So actions can certainly influence how the barrel will perform. In the context of a hunting rifle though, there are enough other factors which have a significant effect that the action is somewhat less of a factor.
In working with old military actions, I have always found rifles built on P14 or 1917 Enfield actions to be particularily accurate. Can't say why this might be but I've had better results from them than I have from Springfields, for instance. GD

It all has to work together. The weakest link will be the issue including the nut behind the rifle.

Great info, thank you. The fact that you could identify the good shooters (barrels) through their performance on different actions says a lot. I think we are just lucky to get a straight actions and great barrels in factory rifles. Spoke with one of South-Africas top gunsmiths the other day and he needed to true a Mcmillan action and he was shocked to see how far out the action was from true. Guess a bad one could even slip through from companies you would never expect it from. It might have been a boring world if some rifles did not need some tuning to shoot straight but a bad barrel might be your worst case scenario.

Pieter

I do appreciate all the info in this thread, thanks a lot.

Pieter

Exceptional rifles abound,exceptional Shooters do not...nor do exceptional Reloaders.

I do loves to buy me,used rifles that "don't shoot".(grin)

That is cutting to the heart of the matter. I am often amazed how rifles that pretty consistently shoot 1/4 MOA when I load and shoot them here, only shoot MOA when the owners take them home and load their own.

Seen it.(grin)

Lots.

Hart barrels are great quality. My original Remington 40X in .22-250 bought back in the 1970's was reputed to have a Hart barrel right from the custom shop. Never had any problems developing a good load, ground squirrels died by the hundreds, the valley oaks sighed relief, and the bubonic plague outbreak diminished. My hunting buddy and I hoped we had something to do with the public health improvement.

Then I had a Mark X action barreled by the late Harvey Miller in 7mm Remington Magnum. Stuffed it into a Bishop stock and found a Sierra 168 grain Match bullet over H-4831 shot into a bug hole that ran a little over 1/8": I gasped! Shot that group at night at a range dug out of a hillside under artificial light, never did it again in daylight and open conditions, but knew the rifle was capable.

When I called Hart for that AR barrel, Karen Hart went out of her way to make sure my project would work. She consulted their gunsmith who made a recommendation on diameters and contour, with me thankful for their knowledge. It's service that counts and they provide first rate service.

Same when things go wrong. Shilen made me a Savage prefit varmint contour barrel for a large shank Precision Target Action in .204 Ruger. When it arrived it wouldn't screw on, the threads weren't quite right. So I called, and they said send it back with the Savage action and they'd check the threads. I was a bit disgruntled because the UPS Store charged $90 to ship it. (Always go to a UPS terminal as the same item costs $15 to ship). Shilen fixed it and returned it in two weeks. That rifle shoots around .25". When I ordered another barrel for a Savage action I asked if they had straightened the thread issue out, because sending the first barrel back cost me $90. They apologized and gave me a discount of that amount on the new barrel. That's customer service that makes repeat orders easy to decide upon.

Wow.

I live it. That M-4 carbine is the best shooting teacher I experienced so far. It teaches that consistent technique is everything, something I forget from time to time. Hold it slightly different, squeeze the grip too much or too little, watch that my trigger finger is aligned the same, seat the butt the same, get cheek position just right, watch what I'm doing with the rear bag or things go to hell quickly. The big heavy 14-15 pound rifles with 6 ounce triggers are one thing, but the M-4 demands careful conscious awareness every shot - hence the fliers. It ain't the rifle or the load, it's me - and that's the most difficult variable of all. I've been doing this for over 50 years and learn something new about myself every time I shoot.

That whole Remington Custom Shop using Hart barrels was rumor started by God knows who because someone made the assumption that the "heart" shaped proof mark must have been because they were Hart Barrels. Only connection I've read about the two was that Mike Walker taught Clyde how to make barrels.

Thus the Wow.

Though there's other nuggets in there,nearly as good.(grin)

A schit rifle,is never anything more...than a schit rifle.

I may have a Gas Gun.

I'm sure that is indeed the origin of the "Hart barrels on 40x's" thing. I believe Mike Walker was the inventor of the button rifling technique. Because BR shooters in the early days shared all knowledge, it is likely that most early makers of buttoned barrels got most of their methodology from Mike Walker. The Remington barrels from the custom shop really were a custom item.
I have one Clyde Hart barrel left (bought in about 1976)and it is a darn good barrel. GD