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So every highly acclaimed, apparently very successful Mason has an overactive imagination if and when their writings are used by someone that finds Freemasonry to be incompatible with Christianity even when his book, the encyclopedia, is considered a treasure by other Masons and a highly respected work on the subject?
I doubt a hit piece would compliment Mr. Mackey on his thorough work and diligence!
The author of the piece went to the source, researched the material and cited examples of incompatibility.
No that isn't how I see it. He took a quote out of context cutting out important information. And he did this in an attempt to make Mackey say things that he explicitly denied. Let's put up a bit more of Mackey's own words. From the same entry that was cited. And let's see how that changes things keeping in mind that he was a self proclaimed Christian: He first lays out the four dictionary definitions of the word religion. Then he explains how masonry fits the first three. Next is this: QUOTE:"But it must be confessed that the fourth definition does not appear to be strictly applicable to Freemasonry. It has no pretension to assume a place among the religions of the world as a sectarian "system of faith and worship," in the sense in which we distinguish Christianity from Judaism, or Judaism from Mohammedanism. In this meaning of the word we do not and can not speak of the Masonic religion, nor say of a man that he is not a Christian, but a Freemason. Here it is that the opponents of Freemasonry have assumed mistaken ground in confounding the idea of a religious Institution with that of the Christian religion as a peculiar form of worship, and in supposing, because Freemasonry teaches religious truth, that it is offered as a substitute for Christian truth and Christian obligation. Its warmest and most enlightened friends have never advanced nor supported such a claim. Freemasonry is not Christianity, nor a substitute for it. It is not intended to supersede it nor any other form of worship or system of faith. It does not meddle with sectarian creeds or doctrines, but teaches fundamental religious truth� not enough to do away with the necessity of the Christian scheme of salvation, but more than enough to show, to demonstrate, that it is, in every philosophical sense of the word, a religious Institution, and one, too, in which the true Christian Freemason will find if he earnestly seeks for them, abundant types and shadows of his own exalted and divinely inspired faith." END QUOTE~ahem~ Did you catch the slight of hand in the article by Alva J. McClain, Th.m., D.D., LL.D.? In the dictionary of Mackey's there are 4 distinct definitions. Your Mr. McClain quotes his article but only admits to 3 definitions. And he conveniently leaves out the part where Mackey goes to some great lengths to assure the reader that Freemasonry does not fit the last at all. Mr. McClain: "The quotation is too length to give in full, but Dr Mackey proves conclusively that Freemasonry meets every requirement Webster's three primary definitions of religion... Your Mr. McClain is a liar. Masters in theology or not. He intentionally misrepresents Mackey's own views. And further he intentionally conceals evidence of this. This is the kind of stuff that leads most masons to just plain ignore posts such as yours. It takes time to track down original texts and find the original quotes. Putting up lies and distortions is far easier. After showing the real words of Albert Pike and refuting the pitiful lies put up in a previous post I challenged Wtxj and birddog65 to admit that the posts they referenced were lies or else I would have to widen my view that only the author of the article in question was a liar. Their lack of response told me all I need to know as to whether this wider net is warranted. Now I put the same question to you. Are you going to admit that the hit piece you posted is a lie and this Mr. McClain who wrote it is also a liar or will you ignore me too? I am ready on my end to draw my own conclusions should you also ignore me after calling me out specifically. Will Hey there all knowing Will I was out hunting until Sunday late. Have one question for you Will if you care to share. You had one long post way back up top that gave some of your life history. Had to go to church, not fulfilled etc., joined the Masons etc. Do and your family go to church at the current time each week or just the Masons? As far as all the copy and paste by me, well I have moved up and everything has changed and means something different now. 
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Yes, everything negative that we posted was an internet lie. Everything that the Mason's posted was positive or neutral is true! Yet we posted direct quotes (taken out of context i'm sure)and information . So everything we said was misquoted and everything you said was true. Just for the record, I could care less what you Masons do, its your business . I just was trying to warn some people of the "bait and switch technique"
If you really like something,you better buy two!
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He first lays out the four dictionary definitions of the word religion. Then he explains how masonry fits the first three. Next is this:
QUOTE:
"But it must be confessed that the fourth definition does not appear to be strictly applicable to Freemasonry. It has no pretension to assume a place among the religions of the world as a sectarian "system of faith and worship," in the sense in which we distinguish Christianity from Judaism, or Judaism from Mohammedanism. In this meaning of the word we do not and can not speak of the Masonic religion, nor say of a man that he is not a Christian, but a Freemason. Here it is that the opponents of Freemasonry have assumed mistaken ground in confounding the idea of a religious Institution with that of the Christian religion as a peculiar form of worship, and in supposing, because Freemasonry teaches religious truth, that it is offered as a substitute for Christian truth and Christian obligation. Its warmest and most enlightened friends have never advanced nor supported such a claim. Freemasonry is not Christianity, nor a substitute for it. It is not intended to supersede it nor any other form of worship or system of faith. It does not meddle with sectarian creeds or doctrines, but teaches fundamental religious truth� not enough to do away with the necessity of the Christian scheme of salvation, but more than enough to show, to demonstrate, that it is, in every philosophical sense of the word, a religious Institution, and one, too, in which the true Christian Freemason will find if he earnestly seeks for them, abundant types and shadows of his own exalted and divinely inspired faith."
END QUOTE I just read the response and I appreciate it. We are discussing in the context is Masonry and Christianity compatible? You are still contending that even though Mr.Mackey says himself that Masonry fits 75%, 3 of 4 definitions of a religion, yet in his opinion doesn't fit the Fourth (left out by the author of the article, I didn't write it so will not speculate as to why, but if it doesn't apply why consider it) that Masonry is not intended to be a religion? Mr.Mackey then goes on in your quote from the encyclopedia to say, "But it must be confessed that the fourth definition does not appear to be strictly applicable to Freemasonry. It has no pretension to assume a place among the religions of the world as a sectarian "system of faith and worship," in the sense in which we distinguish Christianity from Judaism, or Judaism from Mohammedanism. In this meaning of the word we do not and can not speak of the Masonic religion, nor say of a man that he is not a Christian, but a Freemason." So again he, the expert, speaks of the "Masonic religion."
The religion of Masonry doesn't have the pretense to call itself a religion like Christianity, Judaism or Mohammedanism...because it is a secret religion that operates in darkness(devil) and hidden ceremonies. It is not out in the public, in the light(God)..Several mentions of teaching religious truths! We have examples of scriptures with Jesus left out, so as not to offend!
If not Biblical truths then they are chaff to be separated from the wheat.
Its warmest and most enlightened have never advanced or supported a claim that Masonry is Christian. ( a religion but not Christianity, therefore at odds)
Freemasonry is not Christianity. (but a religion none the less)
Ever heard you are either for us or against us? Our God is a jealous God and rightfully so!
Christian "scheme" of salvation, ( I contend Jesus dying on the cross was no scheme and the very word has an underhanded or deceitful connotation which I personally find offensive! I dare say nobody will face Jesus and thank Him for His "scheme" of salvation.)
Masonry is more than enough to demonstrate that it is in every philosophical sense of the word a religious Institution!!
Again not Christian therefore against it, you are either Hot or Cold not both.
AND if a true Christian Freemason earnestly seeks for them, abundant "types" and "shadows" (darkness again (devil) of his own exalted and divinely inspired faith....The Bible predicts many will be fooled by falsehoods and deceit. I have over shot my bedtime so maybe more later today! Mike
God, Family, and Country.
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I am tired of folks posting lies (knowingly or otherwise) and then retreating from the thread when it is pointed out.
You don't even have to point it out their lies. Simply ask a question that their truthful answer will contradict their previous statements, and you can hear dust fall amongst the crickets.
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but we don't seem to have your overabundance of judgemental God nuts to contend with As a church officer, I couldn't agree with you more.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So is religion still boiling? And those quiet, quiet?
Conduct is the best proof of character.
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Campfire Sage
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He first lays out the four dictionary definitions of the word religion. Then he explains how masonry fits the first three. Next is this:
QUOTE:
"But it must be confessed that the fourth definition does not appear to be strictly applicable to Freemasonry. It has no pretension to assume a place among the religions of the world as a sectarian "system of faith and worship," in the sense in which we distinguish Christianity from Judaism, or Judaism from Mohammedanism. In this meaning of the word we do not and can not speak of the Masonic religion, nor say of a man that he is not a Christian, but a Freemason. Here it is that the opponents of Freemasonry have assumed mistaken ground in confounding the idea of a religious Institution with that of the Christian religion as a peculiar form of worship, and in supposing, because Freemasonry teaches religious truth, that it is offered as a substitute for Christian truth and Christian obligation. Its warmest and most enlightened friends have never advanced nor supported such a claim. Freemasonry is not Christianity, nor a substitute for it. It is not intended to supersede it nor any other form of worship or system of faith. It does not meddle with sectarian creeds or doctrines, but teaches fundamental religious truth� not enough to do away with the necessity of the Christian scheme of salvation, but more than enough to show, to demonstrate, that it is, in every philosophical sense of the word, a religious Institution, and one, too, in which the true Christian Freemason will find if he earnestly seeks for them, abundant types and shadows of his own exalted and divinely inspired faith."
END QUOTE I just read the response and I appreciate it. We are discussing in the context is Masonry and Christianity compatible? You are still contending that even though Mr.Mackey says himself that Masonry fits 75%, 3 of 4 definitions of a religion, yet in his opinion doesn't fit the Fourth (left out by the author of the article, I didn't write it so will not speculate as to why, but if it doesn't apply why consider it) that Masonry is not intended to be a religion? Mr.Mackey then goes on in your quote from the encyclopedia to say, "But it must be confessed that the fourth definition does not appear to be strictly applicable to Freemasonry. It has no pretension to assume a place among the religions of the world as a sectarian "system of faith and worship," in the sense in which we distinguish Christianity from Judaism, or Judaism from Mohammedanism. In this meaning of the word we do not and can not speak of the Masonic religion, nor say of a man that he is not a Christian, but a Freemason." So again he, the expert, speaks of the "Masonic religion."
The religion of Masonry doesn't have the pretense to call itself a religion like Christianity, Judaism or Mohammedanism...because it is a secret religion that operates in darkness(devil) and hidden ceremonies. It is not out in the public, in the light(God)..Several mentions of teaching religious truths! We have examples of scriptures with Jesus left out, so as not to offend!
If not Biblical truths then they are chaff to be separated from the wheat.
Its warmest and most enlightened have never advanced or supported a claim that Masonry is Christian. ( a religion but not Christianity, therefore at odds)
Freemasonry is not Christianity. (but a religion none the less)
Ever heard you are either for us or against us? Our God is a jealous God and rightfully so!
Christian "scheme" of salvation, ( I contend Jesus dying on the cross was no scheme and the very word has an underhanded or deceitful connotation which I personally find offensive! I dare say nobody will face Jesus and thank Him for His "scheme" of salvation.)
Masonry is more than enough to demonstrate that it is in every philosophical sense of the word a religious Institution!!
Again not Christian therefore against it, you are either Hot or Cold not both.
AND if a true Christian Freemason earnestly seeks for them, abundant "types" and "shadows" (darkness again (devil) of his own exalted and divinely inspired faith....The Bible predicts many will be fooled by falsehoods and deceit. I have over shot my bedtime so maybe more later today! Mike Good post Mike.
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So I go to the trouble of tracking down these outright lies and hoaxes, post the pertinent information, explain in very plain language how the supposed information on Masonry are lies or outright fabrication.... and what are the fruits of my labor? One guy deflects and asks about my religious views, another is too stupid to understand that his argument has been kneecapped, and a third posts a slightly unhinged rant about his own personal religious views on masonry. A simple apology or admission that you posted libelous material would have sufficed. Well in any event I got the answers I was looking for. I know where I stand and I know where you stand now. As I said before, your response would dictate how I view you and it has. For those still on the fence or keeping up with this train wreck I have a couple things to say yet. It pertains to the subject of secrecy and what that is all about. Maybe if I point out A and B and then point toward C it will make things a bit more clear. Masonry's beginnings are clouded. Historical evidence shows bits and pieces of the organization long, long before it emerged in its entirety. Without stretching the facts even a little bit it can be said that Masonry existed and endured in historical times that were, let us say, treacherous for those with an independent streak or those who questioned current beliefs. In times where even the possession of the wrong book or the utterance of a single discussion of science or philosophy or whathaveyou was enough to get a man in serious trouble Masonry had members who were clearly doing a lot of both. A few mentions of Freemasonry's involvement in the American revolutionary war have been made. It certainly has been the subject of many discussions. Masonry had members who played major roles in organizing the resistance, laying the philosophical underpinnings for it, and helping guide the effort and discussion that led to independence. In many ways the Revolutionary War was a coming out party for the fraternity. The gloves came off, the ideas that had percolated within it came to the front, and they were instrumental in how the nation shaped itself. A good idea of the reaction from political and religious powers can be had in a papal bull from 1884, a full hundred years after the fact. It is called Humanum Genus and I encourage any and all to read it in its entirety here: Papal bull A nice synopsis can be found on Wiki: Wiki article Imagining some of the folks on this thread reading it I can see the heads shaking up and down and the "Amens" when the go thru the first part of the article. And then they will come section 10 and this: "We have above most clearly shown, that which is their ultimate purpose forces itself into view - namely, the utter overthrow of that whole religious and political order of the world which the Christian teaching has produced...." And a thoughtful person will realize what was meant by this political order which they are defending. Then they will read section 13 on separation of church and state and wonder what the problem is. And 21 on public education and get a bit uncomfortable. Section 22 on the right to self governance should raise eyebrows if not hackles. Section 26 on equality under the law and the concept of freedom and self determination may make some heads explode. This is not to lay out the rantings of an unhinged Pope and turn this thread into a Catholic bashfest. The Church of England was scarcely better and in many ways just as bad in their disregard for what we call human and civil rights and their willingness to shed blood in order to protect their power. The point is that religions in general, prior to the Revolutionary war, were accustomed to the use of civil power to protect themselves and their accumulated power from criticism. In many cases they were in bed with the civil powers in a mutual protection racket. In this type of environment the idea of "secrecy" takes on a whole new urgency. Especially if the ideas that are being discussed pertain to what is the right of the individual man and what role should he play in governing his nation. The question of what role God should play in the governing of a nation. The whole concept of what we now flippantly call "citizenship" was considered a dire threat by those in power across the globe. The idea of self governance was treason and punishable by death. Again, this is the environment Masonry evolved in over the centuries. Secrecy isn't about some handshake or password that you can get off the internet in 5 minutes. It isn't even about obligations and what they entail. And it sure as hell isn't about some secret Satanic cult or plot to bring all religions under one umbrella in a New World Order. It is about proving yourself trustworthy and prudent. It is about providing a friendly ear for the questions of philosophy and religion and politics, or even the day to day struggles that we all need help with from time to time. These can be brought to a brother mason in the full confidence that he will listen and provide guidance and help without passing along your problems to others. Given the environment of the middle ages and the questions and problems members were wrestling with in this time period such imprudence could be deadly. Will
Smellin' a lot of 'if' coming off this plan.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Da poop is not yet straight.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Holy moly!  1,188 posts so far. I bet we can get 2,000 post out of this.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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It's got straightened out for me a whole lot in the last day or so. When you can go to the trouble of refuting a bunch of idiocy only to see the same folks plunge onward without even an acknowledgement of the errors they have posted? Well it kind of says it all.
And for the record you can go back through this thread and check each and every post I have made. You will not find me criticizing a chosen set of religious beliefs. As a MOF you won't find me telling everyone that Christianity is in fact always compatible with Masonry. Honestly I feel that this is a question for each man to answer for himself. I ~think~ it can be done well and many have. But not everyone can or should become a mason.
What I reacted so strongly to was the blatant posting of outright lies. And then the steadfast refusal to admit that this is what had been done. And even worse the twisting of a man's words and lies about what he believed when he had long been dead and not in a position to defend himself. Such conduct is beneath contempt. And if this Alva McClain is looking down from the beyond I want him to know I was proud to show him to be a liar and a fraud.
Will
Smellin' a lot of 'if' coming off this plan.
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Will...let it go, they do not care about your beliefs or anything approaching honesty.
The couple that keep at it are only doing so as they can see that it gets under your skin, and they twist the knife because it causes pain, and nothing you do or say will ever change how they operate.
Have a good Christmas.
These are my opinions, feel free to disagree.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Will...let it go, they do not care about your beliefs or anything approaching honesty.
The couple that keep at it are only doing so as they can see that it gets under your skin, and they twist the knife because it causes pain, and nothing you do or say will ever change how they operate.
Have a good Christmas. True this. Merry Christmas.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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You are quite right. And that is exactly what I will do. I've made my point. Have a good one yourself. I'd send you wishes of a white christmas but I know that won't be in the cards for you.  Will
Smellin' a lot of 'if' coming off this plan.
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Campfire Sage
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Will...let it go, they do not care about your beliefs or anything approaching honesty.
The couple that keep at it are only doing so as they can see that it gets under your skin, and they twist the knife because it causes pain, and nothing you do or say will ever change how they operate.
Have a good Christmas. True this. Merry Christmas. Happy Winter Solstice, Derby Dude.
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Penguin I acknowledged your hard work and I appreciate it. I will stick with my original position of not being personally interested in another drain on my time and treasure.
I don't KNOW if what anyone else posted is fact or fiction, I know for me I'm more interested in my Christian life.
As far as others their life, their decision. I have my opinions I doubt they will change.
Mike
God, Family, and Country.
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Penguin, I am eagerly waiting for your reply/response to this particular post of "lies"
So again he, the expert, speaks of the "Masonic religion."
The religion of Masonry doesn't have the pretense to call itself a religion like Christianity, Judaism or Mohammedanism...because it is a secret religion that operates in darkness(devil) and hidden ceremonies. It is not out in the public, in the light(God)..Several mentions of teaching religious truths! We have examples of scriptures with Jesus left out, so as not to offend!
If not Biblical truths then they are chaff to be separated from the wheat.
Its warmest and most enlightened have never advanced or supported a claim that Masonry is Christian. ( a religion but not Christianity, therefore at odds)
Freemasonry is not Christianity. (but a religion none the less)
Ever heard you are either for us or against us? Our God is a jealous God and rightfully so!
Christian "scheme" of salvation, ( I contend Jesus dying on the cross was no scheme and the very word has an underhanded or deceitful connotation which I personally find offensive! I dare say nobody will face Jesus and thank Him for His "scheme" of salvation.)
Masonry is more than enough to demonstrate that it is in every philosophical sense of the word a religious Institution!!
Again not Christian therefore against it, you are either Hot or Cold not both.
AND if a true Christian Freemason earnestly seeks for them, abundant "types" and "shadows" (darkness again (devil) of his own exalted and divinely inspired faith....The Bible predicts many will be fooled by falsehoods and deceit.
If you really like something,you better buy two!
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Do you do children's birthday party's?
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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do u do gay men's bachelor parties?
If you really like something,you better buy two!
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So how does this co-exist with CHRISTianity.
We have examples of scriptures with Jesus left out, so as not to offend!
If you really like something,you better buy two!
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