Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Romans 10:13

Why do you deny Jesus's baptism with the Holy ghost?

Kent

Kent, even though a serious debater is not usually effective with the use of callous responses such as what you leveled at Ring . . . let me give it a shot, if you are serious. I percieve your argument about there being more unbaptised souls in heaven than baptized assumes all the Jews from Abraham to Christ are saved. That in itself is a stretch. I don't know a single brother in Christ who believes that all baptized believers are going to be saved. On the other hand, I have met many "faith only" advocates who believe a doctrine of "once saved, always saved," without being baptized.

Which position is the extreme?

A whole generation of Jews were lost in the 40 years of wandering in the desert. The reason the Jews had been in captivity for 400 years prior to that was because of disobedience. The entire Old Testament number of faithful Jews (before Jesus) listed in Hebrews 11 is quite small. Go back before Abraham and look at the world's population in the days of Noah.

Genesis 6:5 - 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Continuous evil. Such has been the nature of mankind from the beginning. For this reason Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

There were a plurality of "baptisms" associated with the Mosaic dispensation (Heb 6:2) The final "old Testament" baptism was the baptism of John, for the remission of sins. (Mk 1:4-5)

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

That seems to be a majority of the Jews being baptized for the remission of sins. On the other hand, those that refused to repent and be baptized were said to "reject the counsel of God." Luke 7:29-30

29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

So Kent, let me ask you about the command of God to be baptised (Acts 10:48) for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) so that you might be save (Mark 16:15-16).

Jesus didn't discontinue baptism, but what he accomplished on the cross gave it divine power for the remission of sins. That's what John meant by baptism with the Holy Ghost. In other words, those baptized before Christ accomplished our redemption didn't receive the spiritual benefit of it till Jesus had accomplished what he was born to accomplish.

First of all, as far a Ringman, I give everyone a couple shots on me and he's had his long before. I understand his motivation for posting here and it's not to bring others to Christ.

Second is I never said 'all' to either preChrist jews or those baptize in water, even clarified that some get water baptized to become a member of church and it's social activities.

The obvious point is even if it was water baptize only, it's not the only way to enter the kingdom. And that water baptized souls are the minority in history and current salvation.

John the baptist himself say's there's more than one type of baptism and one more powerful than his...

Ringman denies this... do you?

Kent

Discontinue? you guys can't read.

Kent

� Acts 2:1-4 (KJV) "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

All this occurred in Jerusalem about AD 28 as we now count years (Mary gave birth to Jesus not in AD 1 but between 6 and 4 BC). The New Testament records four other episodes of the same gift of power from on high � the approximate dates below are estimated, based on from 5 BC as the year of the Savior�s birth, as New Testament history suggests �
� Samaria AD 29 (Acts 8:14�19)
� Damascus, AD 30 (Acts 9:17, 1 Corinthians 14:18)
� Caesarea, AD 31 (Acts 1:44�48, 11:8�9, 15-18)
� Ephesus, AD 40 (Acts 19:1-7, Ephesians 1:13�14)

� commonly referred-to nowadays as "the Baptism in the Holy Spirit" � as it has continued to occur from then until now � and will continue � which happened to me Thanksgiving Eve, 1968, in our house on Finley Point, on Flathead Lake, near Polson, Montana.

As someone else has so sagely said, you're entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts.

You're blurring terms.

PS What degree of authoritative weight do you ascribe to "what things have come to be referred to?"

So please explicate 'em �
separately,
carefully,
clearly,
slowly,
so that a senile ol' Bible scholar can understand their new meanings.

(Folks with fresh, facile new brains should be patient with us ancients who still stagger along with the old model.)

There is no distinction between the baptism with the Holy Ghost and the baptism with water. Once Christ accomplished his purpose, baptism became baptism with the Holy Ghost (i.e., it was elevated to that). Prior to that, baptism was in anticipation of Jesus accomplishing man's redemption. The matter of baptism remained water.

Since Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians (4:5) there is but one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, first mentioned by John the Baptist, is but one thing, promised to but one special group of people, for one purpose, and then that promise was fulfilled.

First of all it was prophesied to originate with Jesus along with a baptism of fire. The baptism (immersion) in the Holy Spirit (Comforter) was promised specifically to the apostles of Christ in the upper room, prior to the Lord's last Passover feast. (John 16)

Jesus told his Apostles to wait for it in Jerusalem where they would be endued with power from on high.(Luke 24:49)

Peter and the other apostles were together in Jerusalem when the Holy Spirit fell on them (Acts 2,) as promised by John the Baptist and Jesus, and they began to preach the first Gospel sermon to the multitude in Jerusalem, gathered from all over the world. They spoke in languages (tongues) understood by all nationalities present. This was a fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel.

This outpouring of the Holy Spirit directly from heaven would not be repeated again until it occurred in the household of Cornelius, the Roman Centurion. However, this outpouring of the Spirit directly from heaven (and not through the laying on of the apostles hands Acts 8:14-18) was for an entirely different purpose.

While the outpouring of the Spirit on the apostles gave them certain Spiritual gifts that no other person possessed (such as the ability to pass on miraculous Spiritual gifts through the laying on of their hands, raising the dead, healing the sick, lame and blind, etc) this is the definition of being baptized with the Holy Spirit . . . it was the "power" promised only to the Apostles. Even Peter recognized the outpouring on Cornelius and his household was a "like" gift, in the manner it was delivered, directly from heaven, without the laying on of Peter's hands, but it was not the "same" gift (apostolic power) that was received by only the Apostles on Pentecost.

Then how did I blur terms? Which terms?

What (actually Who) came down from Heaven and enveloped Jesus after John had already baptized Him in water? Wasn't more water.

What (actually Who) came upon the 120 that extra-special Day of Pentecost in Jerusalem? Wasn't water.

What (actually Who) came upon those new believers in the later Acts passages that I cited? Wasn't water.

What (actually Who) came upon me that night on Finley Point? Wasn't water.

The New Testament words for baptism refer only to the act of immersion. The contexts of the several relevant passages allude to or refer to the enveloping media of the immersions. Jesus spoke of several more baptisms to come � some yet to come upon Him later, Who'd already been baptized in water � not more water in any of His coming baptisms.

Strong theological points, Dr. Ken.

You never cease to amaze.

DF

It seems that we agree that there is just one baptism, and that the matter, sine qua non, connected to it is water.

Ken, it seems you are creating the impression that there are several varieties of baptism, when what scripture refers to are the various charisms associated with the one baptism.

Harry was absolutely sure that he was dead.

"Oh, no, Harry! a friend said to him, "You're alive! I see you! You're not dead!"

"That's just your imagination. You see my ghost and think it's me. I'm dead."

"Harry, do ghosts bleed?"

"No, of course they don't. Can't."

"Then stick-out your hand."

Harry stuck his hand out. His friend stuck one finger with a needle and drew blood.

"See, Harry? Blood."

"Yeah. Looks like I was wrong. Ghosts do bleed."

clever and entertaining, as usual.

krp,



If you don't mind, please document this assertion.

That baptism is still open today for anyone who asks. I would not willingly be without it.

krp,



1 Corinthians 4:5

"Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men�s hearts; and then each man�s praise will come to him from God."

My motive here is to bring people to God's Word for themselves.

1 John 2:27

"As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him."

When I first became a believer I spent five hours per day reading Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John for three months. Once I sorta had a handle on Who and What Jesus is I went to the rest of the New Testament. I purchased lots of commentaries and dictionaries and other study guides. What did I discover? There was no more unity in them than there is here. I either gave them away or used them to start fires in our wood burning stove.

With all that study it took ten years before I accepted What Jesus says at the end of both Matthew and Mark. I see several here are still rejecting Jesus' Words just as I did. To them I suggest they take Ken's advise and read the red letters. But before than they do they should read his Who Will Enter the Kingdom of God.

Reception of the gifts of the Holy Ghost are euphemistically referred to as baptism of the Holy Ghost, but there is actually only one sacrament of baptism instituted by Christ necessary for salvation, that using water. The gifts of the Holy Ghost are charisms, not baptisms.