"...whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
God intrudes. The life of Jesus is bracketed by two impossibilities: a virgin's womb and an empty tomb. Jesus entered our world through a door marked "No Entrance" and left through a door marked "No Exit."
That first Christmas, there was no room for Him in the inn. The world never wants to make room for Christ at Christmas and in everyday life. Man killed Him and sealed the tomb with a huge stone to shut Him out of our lives once and for all. But God removed the stone to prove Jesus will not be shut up or shut out of His plans.
"...whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
God intrudes. The life of Jesus is bracketed by two impossibilities: a virgin's womb and an empty tomb. Jesus entered our world through a door marked "No Entrance" and left through a door marked "No Exit."
That first Christmas, there was no room for Him in the inn. The world never wants to make room for Christ at Christmas and in everyday life. Man killed Him and sealed the tomb with a huge stone to shut Him out of our lives once and for all. But God removed the stone to prove Jesus will not be shut up or shut out of His plans.
. . and how does one interpret the Roman call to salvation, calling on the name of the Lord? Lets read what the Holy Spirit inspired author of Romans actually did when he called on the name of the Lord:
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
"...whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
God intrudes. The life of Jesus is bracketed by two impossibilities: a virgin's womb and an empty tomb. Jesus entered our world through a door marked "No Entrance" and left through a door marked "No Exit."
That first Christmas, there was no room for Him in the inn. The world never wants to make room for Christ at Christmas and in everyday life. Man killed Him and sealed the tomb with a huge stone to shut Him out of our lives once and for all. But God removed the stone to prove Jesus will not be shut up or shut out of His plans.
One day Jesus will intrude on history again.
And at that time not as the gentle, humble "lamb"..but as the Lion of Judah
So, how do we go about calling on the name of the Lord? Here's one way... Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
God intrudes. The life of Jesus is bracketed by two impossibilities: a virgin's womb and an empty tomb. Jesus entered our world through a door marked "No Entrance" and left through a door marked "No Exit."
So, how do we go about calling on the name of the Lord? Here's one way... Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
I love saying "Jesus is Lord" or typing it. One can only be saved once, and I am, but confession truly is good for the soul and the Bible says that one cannot say that but by the Holy Ghost. I love the Lord.
HE is the REASON for the season HE is the Alpha and Omega HE is the living Word HE is THE KING of kings HE is the Salvation of the world to those who will accept HIM HE is my LORD and SAVIOUR HE Reins
So, how do we go about calling on the name of the Lord? Here's one way... Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
I love saying "Jesus is Lord" or typing it. One can only be saved once, and I am, but confession truly is good for the soul and the Bible says that one cannot say that but by the Holy Ghost. I love the Lord.
That first Christmas, there was no room for Him in the inn. The world never wants to make room for Christ at Christmas and in everyday life. Man killed Him and sealed the tomb with a huge stone to shut Him out of our lives once and for all. But God removed the stone to prove Jesus will not be shut up or shut out of His plans.
And today there is no room for Him in many "churches."
� And today there is no room for Him in many "churches."
One of my long-time-favorite anecdotes is about dear Negro Brother Sam, who was fervently dedicated to Jesus and fervently longed for fellowship with other Christians.
The only church in his area was a white folks' church, where he'd love to join the worship but knew that he wasn't welcome there. So he'd wait in the brush until everybody went inside, then he'd settle under a window and from there listen to the scripture-reading and the sermon, sing the hymns, etc � always wishing, of course, that he could be inside with the others.
One Sunday morning, he was startled to feel an arm laid across his shoulders. He looked around, and there stood Jesus beside him.
"Don't feel bad, Brother," Jesus said. "I've wanted to be in there ever since they built the place."
� And today there is no room for Him in many "churches."
One of my long-time-favorite anecdotes is about dear Negro Brother Sam, who was fervently dedicated to Jesus and fervently longed for fellowship with other Christians.
The only church in his area was a white folks' church, where he'd love to join the worship but knew that he wasn't welcome there. So he'd wait in the brush until everybody went inside, then he'd settle under a window and from there listen to the scripture-reading and the sermon, sing the hymns, etc � always wishing, of course, that he could be inside with the others.
One Sunday morning, he was startled to feel an arm laid across his shoulders. He looked around, and there stood Jesus beside him.
"Don't feel bad, Brother," Jesus said. "I've wanted to be in there ever since they built the place."
And every single person in the building confessed with their mouth and believed with their heart...
Originally Posted By: Ken Howell Originally Posted By: Bigbuck215 � And today there is no room for Him in many "churches."
One of my long-time-favorite anecdotes is about dear Negro Brother Sam, who was fervently dedicated to Jesus and fervently longed for fellowship with other Christians.
The only church in his area was a white folks' church, where he'd love to join the worship but knew that he wasn't welcome there. So he'd wait in the brush until everybody went inside, then he'd settle under a window and from there listen to the scripture-reading and the sermon, sing the hymns, etc � always wishing, of course, that he could be inside with the others.
One Sunday morning, he was startled to feel an arm laid across his shoulders. He looked around, and there stood Jesus beside him.
"Don't feel bad, Brother," Jesus said. "I've wanted to be in there ever since they built the place."
Quote
And every single person in the building confessed with their mouth and believed with their heart...
� And today there is no room for Him in many "churches."
One of my long-time-favorite anecdotes is about dear Negro Brother Sam, who was fervently dedicated to Jesus and fervently longed for fellowship with other Christians.
The only church in his area was a white folks' church, where he'd love to join the worship but knew that he wasn't welcome there. So he'd wait in the brush until everybody went inside, then he'd settle under a window and from there listen to the scripture-reading and the sermon, sing the hymns, etc � always wishing, of course, that he could be inside with the others.
One Sunday morning, he was startled to feel an arm laid across his shoulders. He looked around, and there stood Jesus beside him.
"Don't feel bad, Brother," Jesus said. "I've wanted to be in there ever since they built the place."
I would not attend a church that would not welcome someone ao another race just because of their race. That kind of hate is just not a part of my life.
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Matthew 7:22,23
And that ^^ is what scares me. Time and time again I said on here about me not going to church, me undecided on being baptized...one day im going to stand up front and I dont know for sure if He's gonna wrap His arms around me, or show me the door. Me saying I love Him with all my heart every night might not be enough.
And that ^^ is what scares me. Time and time again I said on here about me not going to church, me undecided on being baptized...one day im going to stand up front and I dont know for sure if He's gonna wrap His arms around me, or show me the door. frown Me saying I love Him with all my heart every night might not be enough.
It is not enough. If you love Him with all your heart you will obey Him. Jesus is the One Who wrap arms around. He says,
Matthew 28: 18-20
"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.'�
Mark 16:15-16
"And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.'"
John 14:15
�'If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.'"
By being baptized you are identifying with the death, burial and resurrections of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. You die out to sin by repentance, being submerged in water, raised up to began a new life in Christ Jesus. That's not saying you'll ever achieve being perfect as He was in this life because you want. Christ was the only one that was perfect.
Thanks. Your replied to a thread I had on the subject, as many others have. I am slowly coming around. I want to do it for the right reasons. Because I need to. In the back of my head, I still have the image of the thief on the cross being saved, without being baptized. That part has me going in circles on the subject. Ive never been more honest when I say I want His love. I need His love. I just dont wanna make mistakes, or do things just because. Hate to say this, but hope you understand my confusion. And Thanks. I appreciate it.
Thanks. Your replied to a thread I had on the subject, as many others have. I am slowly coming around. I want to do it for the right reasons. Because I need to. In the back of my head, I still have the image of the thief on the cross being saved, without being baptized. That part has me going in circles on the subject. Ive never been more honest when I say I want His love. I need His love. I just dont wanna make mistakes, or do things just because. Hate to say this, but hope you understand my confusion. And Thanks. I appreciate it.
Sorry for getting away from the OP.
The thief on the cross died under the old covenant, not the new. The new covenant didn't actually begin till Jesus defeated death through his resurrection. Baptism wasn't required under the old covenant, so the thief didn't require it. He went to the same location as went Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc., and was released into heaven when Jesus resurrected from the dead, or at least some time between Jesus' death on the cross and his resurrection.
Thanks. Your replied to a thread I had on the subject, as many others have. I am slowly coming around. I want to do it for the right reasons. Because I need to. In the back of my head, I still have the image of the thief on the cross being saved, without being baptized. That part has me going in circles on the subject. Ive never been more honest when I say I want His love. I need His love. I just dont wanna make mistakes, or do things just because. Hate to say this, but hope you understand my confusion. And Thanks. I appreciate it.
Sorry for getting away from the OP.
Judging only from the words in the posts on this thread, I'm of the opinion that you are in a better place, spiritually speaking, than some of the bible thumping posters.
Baptism, like all the other sacraments, are for OUR benefit, not God's.
If they add to our spiritual lives, they are good. If, as in many cases, they lead to pride, then they are better left alone.
Sounds to me like your confusion stems from trying to get something you already have........... a relationship with the God that made you.
"...whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
God intrudes. The life of Jesus is bracketed by two impossibilities: a virgin's womb and an empty tomb. Jesus entered our world through a door marked "No Entrance" and left through a door marked "No Exit."
That first Christmas, there was no room for Him in the inn. The world never wants to make room for Christ at Christmas and in everyday life. Man killed Him and sealed the tomb with a huge stone to shut Him out of our lives once and for all. But God removed the stone to prove Jesus will not be shut up or shut out of His plans.
One day Jesus will intrude on history again.
The world was looking for a King when they got a Lamb. Few understood what was happening at the time. Only after Pentecost and the Holy Spirit showing them what had taken place did they have Spiritual insight to what they had seen in the flesh. It was Spiritual hindsight and inspiration that became the basis for the Gospels and NT.
Looking for a King, getting a Lamb...
We've become complacent with the Lamb, now we're fixing to get a King. We won't be any more ready for that than first Century people were prepared for what happened back then. Only through the Spirit can we know as we are known. All this is foolishness to the natural man, anyway.
Thanks. Your replied to a thread I had on the subject, as many others have. I am slowly coming around. I want to do it for the right reasons. Because I need to. In the back of my head, I still have the image of the thief on the cross being saved, without being baptized. That part has me going in circles on the subject. Ive never been more honest when I say I want His love. I need His love. I just dont wanna make mistakes, or do things just because. Hate to say this, but hope you understand my confusion. And Thanks. I appreciate it.
Sorry for getting away from the OP.
Don't forget Cornelius and his family. The whole bunch of them were saved, filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues without benefit of baptism. That came later. Not much later, but still after the fact. They were clearly saved by faith, not baptism.
Thanks. Your replied to a thread I had on the subject, as many others have. I am slowly coming around. I want to do it for the right reasons. Because I need to. In the back of my head, I still have the image of the thief on the cross being saved, without being baptized. That part has me going in circles on the subject. Ive never been more honest when I say I want His love. I need His love. I just dont wanna make mistakes, or do things just because. Hate to say this, but hope you understand my confusion. And Thanks. I appreciate it.
Sorry for getting away from the OP.
Don't forget Cornelius and his family. The whole bunch of them were saved, filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues without benefit of baptism. That came later. Not much later, but still after the fact. They were clearly saved by faith, not baptism.
They were sanctified by faith, for sure, but baptism is necessary for salvation, says Jesus. I'm not going to argue with Jesus over that. I'll leave that to braver souls, if they choose to.
"...whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
God intrudes. The life of Jesus is bracketed by two impossibilities: a virgin's womb and an empty tomb. Jesus entered our world through a door marked "No Entrance" and left through a door marked "No Exit."
That first Christmas, there was no room for Him in the inn. The world never wants to make room for Christ at Christmas and in everyday life. Man killed Him and sealed the tomb with a huge stone to shut Him out of our lives once and for all. But God removed the stone to prove Jesus will not be shut up or shut out of His plans.
One day Jesus will intrude on history again.
Believers have been waiting for him to intrude for a couple of millenia now without a response.....I think we should all do what we must and trust in the outcome.
Thanks all who replied to me. Does mean a lot. Appreciate it. For the record, I dont know who Cornelius was. I dont read the bible often. Well I get a daily verse on my phone and read that every morning, but other than that I havent opened my bible in a while. I do pretty well with most things in my life, but with the Lord I worry...a lot! I guess I need to do more reading, and asking Him to point me in the right direction. As I said, I do appreciate it. Thanks.
pahick, I am not an expert or biblical scholar but I started doing a daily bible reading plan years ago and I can not say enough good things about the benefits I have received from consistently spending time in His Word. As many times as I have read it through I still learn something new on a regular basis.
Thanks all who replied to me. Does mean a lot. Appreciate it. For the record, I dont know who Cornelius was. I dont read the bible often. Well I get a daily verse on my phone and read that every morning, but other than that I havent opened my bible in a while. I do pretty well with most things in my life, but with the Lord I worry...a lot! I guess I need to do more reading, and asking Him to point me in the right direction. As I said, I do appreciate it. Thanks.
Cornelius is a good study. Check it out. You could start with a word search on line.
I would not attend a church that would not welcome someone ao another race just because of their race. That kind of hate is just not a part of my life.
I would not attend a church that wouldn't welcome anyone who was seeking God and wanted to be there for that reason.
"...whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
God intrudes. The life of Jesus is bracketed by two impossibilities: a virgin's womb and an empty tomb. Jesus entered our world through a door marked "No Entrance" and left through a door marked "No Exit."
That first Christmas, there was no room for Him in the inn. The world never wants to make room for Christ at Christmas and in everyday life. Man killed Him and sealed the tomb with a huge stone to shut Him out of our lives once and for all. But God removed the stone to prove Jesus will not be shut up or shut out of His plans.
One day Jesus will intrude on history again.
Thank You for sharing. This is too good not to share elsewhere. I hope you don't mind sir.
Thanks all who replied to me. Does mean a lot. Appreciate it. For the record, I dont know who Cornelius was. I dont read the bible often. Well I get a daily verse on my phone and read that every morning, but other than that I havent opened my bible in a while. I do pretty well with most things in my life, but with the Lord I worry...a lot! I guess I need to do more reading, and asking Him to point me in the right direction. As I said, I do appreciate it. Thanks.
It's in Acts. Cornelius was a high ranking Roman soldier who believed in God. God told him to send for Peter to come and talk to him and his family. Then all of them were saved. It's the 1st time that the new Christian faith was taken to the Gentiles. It caused quite a stir with the Jewish Christians to realize that salvation was for everyone, not just the Jews.
As far as a requirement for baptism for salvation, there are passages where it says that it's required and others where it's not. It's a never ending debate. However, Jesus says to do as a public confession of faith it whether it's required for salvation or not. So, just do it and be within His word.
Thanks. Your replied to a thread I had on the subject, as many others have. I am slowly coming around. I want to do it for the right reasons. Because I need to. In the back of my head, I still have the image of the thief on the cross being saved, without being baptized. That part has me going in circles on the subject. Ive never been more honest when I say I want His love. I need His love. I just dont wanna make mistakes, or do things just because. Hate to say this, but hope you understand my confusion. And Thanks. I appreciate it.
Sorry for getting away from the OP.
Don't forget Cornelius and his family. The whole bunch of them were saved, filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues without benefit of baptism. That came later. Not much later, but still after the fact. They were clearly saved by faith, not baptism.
They were sanctified by faith, for sure, but baptism is necessary for salvation, says Jesus. I'm not going to argue with Jesus over that. I'll leave that to braver souls, if they choose to.
I truly hope that someday I will meet again and pick up on lost conversations with my departed Jewish friends.
Thanks. Your replied to a thread I had on the subject, as many others have. I am slowly coming around. I want to do it for the right reasons. Because I need to. In the back of my head, I still have the image of the thief on the cross being saved, without being baptized. That part has me going in circles on the subject. Ive never been more honest when I say I want His love. I need His love. I just dont wanna make mistakes, or do things just because. Hate to say this, but hope you understand my confusion. And Thanks. I appreciate it.
There is no difference in the thief on the cross and Noah or Abraham. They were before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. They, including the thief on the cross, were before Jesus told us about baptism. If you casually read the Book of Acts you will notice the new believers were baptized. From Whom did the apostles get the idea to baptize new believers? From Jesus!
Don't forget Cornelius and his family. The whole bunch of them were saved, filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues without benefit of baptism. That came later. Not much later, but still after the fact. They were clearly saved by faith, not baptism.
Check Acts 10. The were commanded or ordered by an apostle to be water baptized! Ordered! Acts 2:38 tells us why. Acts 22:16 tells us why. Mark 16:15-16 tells us why.
As far as a requirement for baptism for salvation, there are passages where it says that it's required and others where it's not. It's a never ending debate. However, Jesus says to do as a public confession of faith it whether it's required for salvation or not. So, just do it and be within His word.
This is not true. God's Word does not contradict Itself. Jesus is the Savior Who told us to make disciples by baptising them. The apostles always baptized in the Book of Acts. Teacher, pastors, evangelists and other today contradict Jesus. Why? They don't have a love of the Truth!
Jesus didn't say... or else no salvation and he didn't say in water... the only thing that for sure that will keep you out, is to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.
And God bless all who don't belong to him. For it is through his blessings we come to the realization that we can also receive his grace and mercy, and eternal life.
I view baptism as an outward expression of an inner change and one of the first acts of obedience for the new Christian!
Why not get started on the right foot?
Do I think you have to be baptized to get into heaven, no I do not.
Do I think you should be baptized if able, yes I do.
Mike
Me too. I'm not going to start arguing about being baptized in water or not. I do believe you should be baptized in water at the first opportunity but I don't see God keeping you out of Heaven if you asked him for forgiveness and asked him to save you but died before being dunked in water. After all, I am getting to Heaven based on everything Jesus did, not based on anything I did. When Jesus hung on a cross, I hung on a cross. When Jesus paid the price for sin, I paid the price for sin. When Jesus died, I died. When Jesus was resurrected, I was resurrected. Is it a far stretch to think that when he was baptized, I was also baptized?
11 �I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Which as John the Baptist himself stated, is more powerful... for those that have recognized the Holy spirit truth of God inside yourself... no 'man' can baptize you more.
� And today there is no room for Him in many "churches."
One of my long-time-favorite anecdotes is about dear Negro Brother Sam, who was fervently dedicated to Jesus and fervently longed for fellowship with other Christians.
The only church in his area was a white folks' church, where he'd love to join the worship but knew that he wasn't welcome there. So he'd wait in the brush until everybody went inside, then he'd settle under a window and from there listen to the scripture-reading and the sermon, sing the hymns, etc � always wishing, of course, that he could be inside with the others.
One Sunday morning, he was startled to feel an arm laid across his shoulders. He looked around, and there stood Jesus beside him.
"Don't feel bad, Brother," Jesus said. "I've wanted to be in there ever since they built the place."
As far as a requirement for baptism for salvation, there are passages where it says that it's required and others where it's not. It's a never ending debate. However, Jesus says to do as a public confession of faith it whether it's required for salvation or not. So, just do it and be within His word.
This is not true. God's Word does not contradict Itself. Jesus is the Savior Who told us to make disciples by baptising them. The apostles always baptized in the Book of Acts. Teacher, pastors, evangelists and other today contradict Jesus. Why? They don't have a love of the Truth!
Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
As far as a requirement for baptism for salvation, there are passages where it says that it's required and others where it's not. It's a never ending debate. However, Jesus says to do as a public confession of faith it whether it's required for salvation or not. So, just do it and be within His word.
This is not true. God's Word does not contradict Itself. Jesus is the Savior Who told us to make disciples by baptising them. The apostles always baptized in the Book of Acts. Teacher, pastors, evangelists and other today contradict Jesus. Why? They don't have a love of the Truth!
But it is true. It is a never ending debate about all the many contradictions in the various Bibles. And all the �facts� that man and his God Given intelligence have found to not be true.
Some of them have been beat to death on other threads.
Question: "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"
Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the �Christian� cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?
The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works).
Baptism, no baptism what ever. What is important is seeking him and giving him the praise and love that is due him. Everybody quotes john 3:16 all the time but open a bible and read john 3:17, it shows Gods heart toward us. I haven't been to church with any regularity in 2 years but I know him he knows me my name is in the book and I know where I'm going despite my flaws. Church doesn't make you a christian any more than mc donalds makes you a hamburger. Is it good to go? Certainly, God even said fail not to assemble in his word. A healthy church is good for you.
I think some people add to what Jesus said to fit their belief, when really you should just take what he said as just that.
John 8:11
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Here Jesus said, Go and sin no more. should we take this as command and if you don't you are going to hell... or did Jesus hope to improve her spiritual well being, knowing good and well she(us) won't be able to strictly follow. But also knowing in whatever attempt, less sin will mean a better spiritual life while here on earth.
Folks put a lot of 'or elses' in what Jesus never said.
Here is what Jesus says about baptism and being saved.
Matthew 28:19
"'Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,'"
Mark 16:15-16
"And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.'"
We don't have to concern ourselves with what happens if someone does not believe. Jesus got it handled in the first sentence of the Mark quote and the Whole quote from Matthew.
Why do you people want to argue with Jesus? You accept the words of others over the Words of the One Who saves.
He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.'"
Interesting that he specifically says baptized with belief and purposely left it out in condemnation. For me that confirms baptism (submersion) of the Holy spirit, which goes hand in hand with belief and is absent in unbelief.
My wife was baptized catholic as a baby, then when she joined my Christian church she had to be rebaptized... 'the right way'... on threat of losing her soul.
My daughter was baptized in our Christian church, then rebaptized in the catholic church to marry her husband... 'the right way'... after a year of classes...
All this dunking in water when they already were saved in their belief of Christ.
What if you were unwittingly baptized by a charlatan... holy crap...
Anyway, a Joyous Christmas to all, may Christ bring all peace in whatever stage of belief or non belief we brothers find ourselves in. He has a plan for us all and knows each and everyone.
What if you were unwittingly baptized by a charlatan... holy crap...
God looks on the heart of the baptized, not the baptizer. I know a woman who had zero respect for her pastor but didn't know what to do about it. She had some kind of disease and wanted to follow God's Word in James. She went to them and asked to be anointed with oil in the Name of Lord. She was healed.
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Did this person baptize... in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,'"
They either had God's authority or they didn't.
Kent
Is this authority enough?
Acts 8:26-40
�But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, �Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.� (This is a desert road.) So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah.
Then the Spirit said to Philip, �Go up and join this chariot.� Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, �Do you understand what you are reading?� And he said, �Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?� And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this:
�HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER; AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT, SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH. �IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY; WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION? FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH.�
The eunuch answered Philip and said, �Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?� Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, �Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?� And Philip said, �If you believe with all your heart, you may.� And he answered and said, �I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.� And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he kept preaching the Gospel to all the cities until he came to Caesarea.�
My wife was baptized catholic as a baby, then when she joined my Christian church she had to be rebaptized... 'the right way'... on threat of losing her soul.
My daughter was baptized in our Christian church, then rebaptized in the catholic church to marry her husband... 'the right way'... after a year of classes...
All this dunking in water when they already were saved in their belief of Christ.
Kent
Knowing that imperfect men assembled the writings we call the bible, I confess to a certain amount of skepticism when I read passages that seem to imply a need for a third party in a man's dealings with his Creator.
Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
No baptism here.
This must be interpreted as part of the whole gospel message. Included in that whole gospel message is the necessity of baptism. Therefore the verse you cite means that if you confess with your mouth, and believe, that Jesus is Lord, you will receive baptism and be saved.
You can't interpret one passage in such a way as to negate other passages.
Also implied is that you will turn from sin, i.e., you are not free to interpret your citation so as to mean that one may confess with his mouth, and believe, that Jesus is Lord, even while having no intention of turning from sin, and still be saved. This is because we know that other passages tell us that even the Devil believes, as do the Devil's human children, that Jesus is Lord. They even confess it with their mouths, e.g., "What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not." - Mark 5:7
I think some people add to what Jesus said to fit their belief, when really you should just take what he said as just that.
John 8:11
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Here Jesus said, Go and sin no more. should we take this as command and if you don't you are going to hell... or did Jesus hope to improve her spiritual well being, knowing good and well she(us) won't be able to strictly follow. But also knowing in whatever attempt, less sin will mean a better spiritual life while here on earth.
Folks put a lot of 'or elses' in what Jesus never said.
Kent
The humble heart of a redeemed and sanctified Christian is always ready to turn back to God and ask forgiveness for sin, which forgiveness will be forthcoming. Any who think they don't need to do so are not truly redeemed and sanctified Christians in the first place. Had the prostitute sinned again, she would have received forgiveness when asked, and by that means have her sanctification and imputed innocence restored to her. If she sinned again without turning back to God, it would not have been restored to her, and she would have died in her sinful state, absent imputation of innocence through Jesus.
Define baptize... we're talking about the physical act of water submersion by a clergy.
I never argue with Christ.
Kent
It doesn't have to be by clergy. If you, a non-clergyman, come across a car accident, and a dying man asks you for baptism, your baptizing him is just as effective as anyone else's, because it's not actually you who provide the effective element in baptism, but rather Jesus.
What if you were unwittingly baptized by a charlatan... holy crap...
Anyway, a Joyous Christmas to all, may Christ bring all peace in whatever stage of belief or non belief we brothers find ourselves in. He has a plan for us all and knows each and everyone.
God bless, I'm going hunting in the morning.
Kent
Same to you. Baptisms performed by non-believers (even charlatans) are perfectly effective, so long as the form is correct, because the performers of baptism don't provide the effective element anyway. Jesus does. In that case, only the faith of the baptized person matters.
What if you were unwittingly baptized by a charlatan... holy crap...
God looks on the heart of the baptized, not the baptizer. I know a woman who had zero respect for her pastor but didn't know what to do about it. She had some kind of disease and wanted to follow God's Word in James. She went to them and asked to be anointed with oil in the Name of Lord. She was healed.
Quote
Did this person baptize... in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,'"
They either had God's authority or they didn't.
Kent
Is this authority enough?
Acts 8:26-40
�But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, �Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.� (This is a desert road.) So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah.
Then the Spirit said to Philip, �Go up and join this chariot.� Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, �Do you understand what you are reading?� And he said, �Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?� And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this:
�HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER; AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT, SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH. �IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY; WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION? FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH.�
The eunuch answered Philip and said, �Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?� Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, �Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?� And Philip said, �If you believe with all your heart, you may.� And he answered and said, �I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.� And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing. But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he kept preaching the Gospel to all the cities until he came to Caesarea.�
Right. God will bring a baptizer where one is needed, so long as the heart of the baptized is right.
� You can't interpret one passage in such a way as to negate other passages. �
Baptized means simply "immersed" � thus my old essay "Plunged and Soaking." Water isn't the only thing that the New Testament speaks of being dunked into �
Originally Posted by Finis J Dake
There are Seven Baptisms in Scripture
Paul taught the "doctrine of baptisms" (Heb. 6:2). There are five different elements people have been baptized or immersed into. [italics added � KEH] The seven baptisms and the five different elements used in baptism are as follows:
1. The baptism "unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea" (1 Cor. 10:2). This refers to the crossing of the Red Sea when Israel was hid from Pharaoh in the sea on both sides and the cloud in front and back and all over them to protect them from the Egyptians. They were completely covered by the clouds and went through the sea. This was a true baptism in the cloud and in the sea. Cloud and water are the elements used in this baptism.
2. John's baptism in water (Mt. 3; Lk. 3; Acts 1:5; 19:3-4). This was immersion in water (Mt. 3:16; Mk. 1:10).
3. Christ's baptism in water (Jn. 3:22-23; 4:1-2). These last two baptisms were not continued, because they were in the name of the Father only and not in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, as Jesus authorized in Mt. 28:18-20. Both John and Jesus did work in the name of the Father only (Jn. 5:30-36; 5:43; 10:25; 17:1-6). Paul rebaptized the disciples of John thus proving that baptism in the Father's name only was not recognized after Christ died (Acts 19:1-7).
4. Baptism of suffering (Lk. 12:50). This was a baptism that Christ was yet to be baptized with after He spoke of it in this passage. It refers to His sufferings and the element He was to be baptized into speaks of the overwhelming agonies that He was to go through in taking the sins and sicknesses of the race (Isa. 52:14; 53:1-12; Mt. 8:17; Lk. 22:44; 1 Pet. 2:24).
5. Baptism "into Christ" and into His body, the church (Rom. 6:4; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27; Eph. 4:5; Col. 2:12). These Scriptures have been taken to refer to water baptism but not one of them mentions water as the element the believer is baptized into. If they referred to water baptism it would read "buried with him by baptism into water" but they plainly say "baptism into Christ," "baptized into one body," and "baptized into Christ." In Col. 2:12, Paul says men are saved by being "buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through faith of the operation of God" and not through water administered by man. Whatever baptism this passage refers to, it is one by "the operation of God" and not through the operation of man. It, therefore, could not possibly refer to water baptism by man.
If these Scriptures speak of being "baptized into Christ" and "into one body" the body of Christ, which is the church, then the element the believer is baptized into is not water but Christ and His body. If we take these passages to refer to water baptism we make Christ and His church mere water. Is Christ water? Is His body water? If not, then Christ and His body are the elements believers are baptized into and not water. We must not insert a meaning into any Scripture that is not there, to teach something contrary to what is plainly written. Water baptism does not bring one into Christ or into His body. Man has nothing to do in this operation. It is solely an operation of God by the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, water baptism is not by God, Christ, or the Holy Spirit, but solely by man.
6. Christian water baptism (Mt. 28:19; Mk. 16:15; Acts 2:38, 41; 8:12-16, 36-38; 9:18; l0:44-48; 16:15, 33; 18:8; 19:1-5; 22:16; 1 Cor. 1:13-17; 1 Peter 3:21). These 15 passages are all the Scriptures teaching water baptism. The element used is water and the administrator is man. Candidates are supposed to be already saved and disciples of Christ (Mt. 28:19). Water baptism testifies outwardly of an inward work and is merely a "figure" (1 Peter 3:21) and a "witness" of the change previously made in the life of a candidate through faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Jn. 5:6-10).
Water baptism does not remit sins. This is a work of God and a gift through faith (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 10:9-10; Acts 15:8-9). It is faith in the blood of Christ that remits sins, not water administered by man (Rom. 3:24-25; Eph. 1:7; Rev. 1:5; 1 Jn. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:18-23).
Men have been and will yet be saved before and without water baptism. All Old Testament saints before John the Baptist were saved before and without water baptism. Many were saved from sin during the ministry of Christ before and without water baptism (Mt. 9:1-8; Lk. 7:36-50; 18:9-14; 19:1-9; 23:43; Jn. 4:49-53). Since the day of Pentecost many were saved from sin and some even baptized in the Holy Spirit before and without water baptism (Acts 9:17-18; 10:44-48; 11:14-18; 15:7-11). These last three passages state that Cornelius and his house were not saved until Peter preached to them. Then while hearing the Word the Holy Ghost fell on them as at Pentecost and only then was the question of water baptism brought up. Even Christ was baptized in water as a witness and a testimony of His own death, burial, and resurrection. He had no sins to remit by water. He is our example so if water did not remit His sins it does not remit ours (1 Pet. 2:21).
The "water" of the new birth of Jn. 3:5 does not refer to literal water, but to spiritual water of the Word, as proven in Jn. 16:3; 17:17; Eph. 5:26; 1 Pet. 1:18-23; Rom. 1:16; Jas. 1:18. These passages state that the new birth is by the Spirit and the Word of God. Water is used in a spiritual sense in Jn. 4:14; 7:37-39, etc. Since it is used in a spiritual sense and since Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus of a spiritual birth and of "heavenly things" it is very clear that the water of Jn. 3:5 could not refer to literal water.
� You can't interpret one passage in such a way as to negate other passages. �
Baptized means simply "immersed" � thus my old essay "Plunged and Soaking." Water isn't the only thing that the New Testament speaks of being dunked into �
Originally Posted by Finis J Dake
There are Seven Baptisms in Scripture
Paul taught the "doctrine of baptisms" (Heb. 6:2). There are five different elements people have been baptized or immersed into. [italics added � KEH] The seven baptisms and the five different elements used in baptism are as follows:
1. The baptism "unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea" (1 Cor. 10:2). This refers to the crossing of the Red Sea when Israel was hid from Pharaoh in the sea on both sides and the cloud in front and back and all over them to protect them from the Egyptians. They were completely covered by the clouds and went through the sea. This was a true baptism in the cloud and in the sea. Cloud and water are the elements used in this baptism.
2. John's baptism in water (Mt. 3; Lk. 3; Acts 1:5; 19:3-4). This was immersion in water (Mt. 3:16; Mk. 1:10).
3. Christ's baptism in water (Jn. 3:22-23; 4:1-2). These last two baptisms were not continued, because they were in the name of the Father only and not in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, as Jesus authorized in Mt. 28:18-20. Both John and Jesus did work in the name of the Father only (Jn. 5:30-36; 5:43; 10:25; 17:1-6). Paul rebaptized the disciples of John thus proving that baptism in the Father's name only was not recognized after Christ died (Acts 19:1-7).
4. Baptism of suffering (Lk. 12:50). This was a baptism that Christ was yet to be baptized with after He spoke of it in this passage. It refers to His sufferings and the element He was to be baptized into speaks of the overwhelming agonies that He was to go through in taking the sins and sicknesses of the race (Isa. 52:14; 53:1-12; Mt. 8:17; Lk. 22:44; 1 Pet. 2:24).
5. Baptism "into Christ" and into His body, the church (Rom. 6:4; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27; Eph. 4:5; Col. 2:12). These Scriptures have been taken to refer to water baptism but not one of them mentions water as the element the believer is baptized into. If they referred to water baptism it would read "buried with him by baptism into water" but they plainly say "baptism into Christ," "baptized into one body," and "baptized into Christ." In Col. 2:12, Paul says men are saved by being "buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through faith of the operation of God" and not through water administered by man. Whatever baptism this passage refers to, it is one by "the operation of God" and not through the operation of man. It, therefore, could not possibly refer to water baptism by man.
If these Scriptures speak of being "baptized into Christ" and "into one body" the body of Christ, which is the church, then the element the believer is baptized into is not water but Christ and His body. If we take these passages to refer to water baptism we make Christ and His church mere water. Is Christ water? Is His body water? If not, then Christ and His body are the elements believers are baptized into and not water. We must not insert a meaning into any Scripture that is not there, to teach something contrary to what is plainly written. Water baptism does not bring one into Christ or into His body. Man has nothing to do in this operation. It is solely an operation of God by the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, water baptism is not by God, Christ, or the Holy Spirit, but solely by man.
6. Christian water baptism (Mt. 28:19; Mk. 16:15; Acts 2:38, 41; 8:12-16, 36-38; 9:18; l0:44-48; 16:15, 33; 18:8; 19:1-5; 22:16; 1 Cor. 1:13-17; 1 Peter 3:21). These 15 passages are all the Scriptures teaching water baptism. The element used is water and the administrator is man. Candidates are supposed to be already saved and disciples of Christ (Mt. 28:19). Water baptism testifies outwardly of an inward work and is merely a "figure" (1 Peter 3:21) and a "witness" of the change previously made in the life of a candidate through faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Jn. 5:6-10).
Water baptism does not remit sins. This is a work of God and a gift through faith (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 10:9-10; Acts 15:8-9). It is faith in the blood of Christ that remits sins, not water administered by man (Rom. 3:24-25; Eph. 1:7; Rev. 1:5; 1 Jn. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:18-23).
Men have been and will yet be saved before and without water baptism. All Old Testament saints before John the Baptist were saved before and without water baptism. Many were saved from sin during the ministry of Christ before and without water baptism (Mt. 9:1-8; Lk. 7:36-50; 18:9-14; 19:1-9; 23:43; Jn. 4:49-53). Since the day of Pentecost many were saved from sin and some even baptized in the Holy Spirit before and without water baptism (Acts 9:17-18; 10:44-48; 11:14-18; 15:7-11). These last three passages state that Cornelius and his house were not saved until Peter preached to them. Then while hearing the Word the Holy Ghost fell on them as at Pentecost and only then was the question of water baptism brought up. Even Christ was baptized in water as a witness and a testimony of His own death, burial, and resurrection. He had no sins to remit by water. He is our example so if water did not remit His sins it does not remit ours (1 Pet. 2:21).
The "water" of the new birth of Jn. 3:5 does not refer to literal water, but to spiritual water of the Word, as proven in Jn. 16:3; 17:17; Eph. 5:26; 1 Pet. 1:18-23; Rom. 1:16; Jas. 1:18. These passages state that the new birth is by the Spirit and the Word of God. Water is used in a spiritual sense in Jn. 4:14; 7:37-39, etc. Since it is used in a spiritual sense and since Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus of a spiritual birth and of "heavenly things" it is very clear that the water of Jn. 3:5 could not refer to literal water.
Very good post Ken. People get all hung up because the word baptize was a Greek word never translated. They see baptized to mean dunked in water when it actually means immersed. If we would just say immersed every time we see it, things would be much clearer.
Matthew 28:19
"'Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,'"
Mark 16:15-16
"And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.'"
Notice Matt.28:19 says, immerse them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. It does not say, immerse them in water while saying this is in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This fits Acts 4:12 perfectly. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.�
It is the immersion into Christ which saves us for the only way to Heaven is through him. Heb.10:20 "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh".
We are immersed(baptized)into Christ. This immersion into Christ is what saves us for by being in him, we have both paid the price for sin and received the reward for righteousness. Rom.6:3-4 "Or don�t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life". Simply substitute the word baptized for immersed, and you will see the truth.
It is certainly clear that water baptism was a practice of the early church and every Christian should be baptized in water, but those who require water baptism for salvation are relying on a work of man as part of salvation. When we rely on man's work we get into endless variations and rules made by man as to what is acceptable and what is not. One will teach that sprinkling is all that is needed, another that nothing less than complete submersion is acceptable, yet another will even argue about the depth of water required. All these are simply works of the flesh.
The contemporary use of baptizo, baptisma, and baptismos referred to both complete and prolonged immersion, whatever the medium was (oil, water, misery, defeat) � as when a swordsmith "baptized" a hot blade to quench it or a war ship "baptized" an enemy war ship in a naval battle.
Hard to think of sprinkling (rhantismos) doing any of that!
Becoming hung up on mode is, IMHO, tantamount to counting your steps on the Lord's Day so as not to put forth too much effort and sin by desecrating the day.
Baptism is as much about the man doing the baptizing and the amount of water he uses as it is about obedience to a command. It is to point us to Christ, and God's covenant-keeping faithfulness in sending Him.
God meets us in a physical rite because of our weakness to remind us of His strength. It's all about Him and His grace.
Further more he is the reason for the season. Merry Christmas to all. Cheers NC If this has already been said I apologize as I didn't read all entries.NC
" the constant tradition of the Church".......... .
Is it possible that you haven't picked up on the fact that a whole bunch of us don't grant that element ANY authority in spiritual matters?
Authority? Absolutely not; I am with you.
Does it grant insight into possible answers to questions such as these which are unclear from scripture? Certainly; to deny that seems to me tantamount to suggesting that from its earliest days the Church cared not for the spirit of Christ & the instruction provided by the Apostles into what that ought to look like.
If the Church has been doing something (in this case not obsessing over mode of baptism) since it's inception, it would seem to me that ought to be a consideration when we decide whether we ought to also.
Christianity began in Jerusalem � After the Holy Spirit descended on those first 120 disciples in Jerusalem (Acts 2:1�4), and the news got spread around the city (Acts 2:5�11), He added about 3,000 more (Acts 2:41) and even later about 5,000 (Acts 4:4) to this ekklesia in Jerusalem. No doubt these enthusiastic new Christians also kept the news going. And the word then spread from Jerusalem to other parts of the then-known world. (There were, as well as modern scholarship can estimate, 50,000 to 100,000 Christians in Jerusalem alone by AD 100.)
One result was resistance, of course, eventually even a great persecution, and the Jerusalem Christians were scattered throughout the foreign regions of Judaea and Samaria � but not the apostles (Acts 8:1). Those who were least familiar with Jesus�s way of doing things were spreading the news everywhere, and those who knew His ways remained behind in Jerusalem. If Peter ever went to Rome, that trip doesn�t seem to have been important enough to have been recorded in the New Testament. Paul went there, much later, when there already were a number of ekklesiai in Italy.
By the end of the first century (AD 100), there were dozens if not hundreds of ekklesiai throughout the vast Roman Empire, from Egypt through Greece, Macedonia, Italy, France, Spain, and throughout Europe � no doubt many, many more by the time when Emperor Theodosius decreed in AD 380 that Christianity was to be the official religion throughout the Empire.
In those other lands, they found themselves in the midst of and up against long-established paganism, Roman rule, and Greek intellectualism � all of which in one way and another wrought changes in the ways that the ekklesiai were organized and operated in those places. Like any normal humans anywhere, they wanted to �fit-in� amiably with their neighbors, wherever they were, so they were very naturally sensitive to their neighbors� ways.
Pagan religious practices emphasized buildings, places, and appearances. Roman rule emphasized hierarchy and power along with paganism. Greek intellectualism emphasized knowledge and logic as well as paganism. (A good many Greeks eventually became Christians � Acts 14:1, 17:4, 12, 18:4, 19:17 � but most Greeks considered Christianity foolish, as Paul wrote in chapter 1, verse 23 of his first letter to the Christians in Corinth.)
In the midst of these very strong outside influences, these early ekklesiai underwent significant modifications, changes that the apostles later had to counter, questions that they had to answer, mistakes that they had to correct, problems that they had to solve as The Holy Spirit directed, to conform to Jesus�s plan for His ekklesia. (The Greeks also loved spirited debates, so the divisive influence of fervent arguments also pervaded these early, widely scattered international ekklesiai.)
When Theodosius in AD 380 declared Christianity the official religion of the vast Roman Empire (with Rome its capital and including much of fourth-century Europe), the radical Roman modifications of the ekklesia, with all its pagan influences and its resulting revisions and abandonments of what Jesus and the Holy Spirit had established, became the template for �Christianity� � not the original Jerusalem version with its emphasis on the spiritual.
Today, we see the same thing happening when �Christian� missionaries to pagan lands come home excited about the pagan notions and practices that they�re bringing home for the church�s benefit.
Traditions do not carry any authority, or they would become laws. Regardless of the organizations which have spawned traditions, the traditions imply;"This has worked for a lot of folks for a long time".
A wise man would recognize that and not dismiss them out of hand.
But TRH appealed to the traditions of the RC Church as if that ended the discussion as far as baptism.
"...whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
God intrudes. The life of Jesus is bracketed by two impossibilities: a virgin's womb and an empty tomb. Jesus entered our world through a door marked "No Entrance" and left through a door marked "No Exit."
That first Christmas, there was no room for Him in the inn. The world never wants to make room for Christ at Christmas and in everyday life. Man killed Him and sealed the tomb with a huge stone to shut Him out of our lives once and for all. But God removed the stone to prove Jesus will not be shut up or shut out of His plans.
One day Jesus will intrude on history again.
A wonderful OP... On page 3, one seeking Truth showed up. Some tried to help... By page 5 the "debate" started... And now, 10 pages that has degenerated to nothing more than a debate on who's right about baptism...
Some folks just HAVE to major on the minors. What we believe about baptism is not a requirement for salvation...but apparently some folks believe it is....or just have to prove they're right...
meanwhile, one wonders what has happened to the one seeking truth, perhaps he wandered to the church on down the street, to try and find it...
...rather than listen to the blather about who's right about baptism.
And that ^^ is what scares me. Time and time again I said on here about me not going to church, me undecided on being baptized...one day im going to stand up front and I dont know for sure if He's gonna wrap His arms around me, or show me the door. frown Me saying I love Him with all my heart every night might not be enough.
It is not enough. If you love Him with all your heart you will obey Him. Jesus is the One Who wrap arms around. He says,
Matthew 28: 18-20
"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.'�
Mark 16:15-16
"And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.'"
John 14:15
�'If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.'"
Ringman, that is what I call a perfect trifecta of simple, clear Gospel. There is really nothing to add.
By being baptized you are identifying with the death, burial and resurrections of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. You die out to sin by repentance, being submerged in water, raised up to began a new life in Christ Jesus. That's not saying you'll ever achieve being perfect as He was in this life because you want. Christ was the only one that was perfect.
Kitch you sound just like the Apostle Paul in Romans 6. Very clear, very simple Gospel.
. . . In the back of my head, I still have the image of the thief on the cross being saved, without being baptized. That part has me going in circles on the subject. . .
pahick . . . if you read the Scripture surrounding the Baptism of John, which was "for the remission of sins," there is a much better chance that the thief was baptized than not.
Mark 1:4-5 says:
4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
There is a very good chance that the thief was among the number of those baptized of John.
Thanks. Your replied to a thread I had on the subject, as many others have. I am slowly coming around. I want to do it for the right reasons. Because I need to. In the back of my head, I still have the image of the thief on the cross being saved, without being baptized. That part has me going in circles on the subject. Ive never been more honest when I say I want His love. I need His love. I just dont wanna make mistakes, or do things just because. Hate to say this, but hope you understand my confusion. And Thanks. I appreciate it.
Sorry for getting away from the OP.
Don't forget Cornelius and his family. The whole bunch of them were saved, filled with the Spirit and speaking in tongues without benefit of baptism. That came later. Not much later, but still after the fact. They were clearly saved by faith, not baptism.
I have somewhat to say about the case of Cornelius. The Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and his household directly from heaven, without the laying on of the apostles hands (Acts 8:14-18) for a specific reason . . . to convince Peter and the Jewish brethren who were with him that the Gentiles too were to hear and obey the Gospel (Acts 15:7-11.)
Acts 10 is a general account of what took place in the house of Cornelius, but Acts 11 is Luke's chronological account of the event. Acts 11:4 says that Peter "rehearsed the matter . . and expounded it by order . . ."
It is important to realize that Peter says the Holy Spirit fell on the household of Cornelius as he "began to speak." (Act 11:15) . . .
After they began to speak in tongues and glorify God, Peter and the other Jewish brethren with him realized the Gentiles were included in the Gospel plan of salvation (Acts 11:17-18), so he then preached the gospel to them, they believed it, and were baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 10:47-48), just like every other example of the gospel plan of salvation in the book of Acts.
Just like Jesus said in Mark 16:16 there is no salvation without faith and baptism. Faith comes from hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17) and the household of Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before they heard the word of God because Peter and the other Jewish brethren had to be convinced the Gentiles too were part of God's plan of salvation.
Traditions do not carry any authority, or they would become laws. Regardless of the organizations which have spawned traditions, the traditions imply;"This has worked for a lot of folks for a long time".
A wise man would recognize that and not dismiss them out of hand.
Like I said I am with you.
I think it is important to keep in mind that the obsession with the mode of baptism is a VERY new idea relative to the history of the Church coming largely from those (Anabaptists) who do dismiss them out of hand.
I view baptism as an outward expression of an inner change and one of the first acts of obedience for the new Christian!
Why not get started on the right foot?
Do I think you have to be baptized to get into heaven, no I do not.
Do I think you should be baptized if able, yes I do.
Mike
Ready . . . I am sure you are sincere in your statements of belief . . . I would only urge you to find the "same exact words" you used to express your opinions in the Scriptures. The exact words of Jesus and his Apostles carry much weight and gravitas and are in direct opposition to the opinions you hold.
I have somewhat to say about the case of Cornelius. The Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and his household directly from heaven, without the laying on of the apostles hands (Acts 8:14-18) for a specific reason . . . to convince Peter and the Jewish brethren who were with him that the Gentiles too were to hear and obey the Gospel (Acts 15:7-11.)
Context helps a lot doesn't it?
I was raised in a group of what I call Hyper-Dispensationslists who believed that the Church started in mid-Acts with Paul's mission to the Gentiles. They believed that water baptism was a physical rite for physical Israel, and used Paul's word in I Cor 1 as support:
10 I appeal to you, brothers,[a] by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, �I follow Paul,� or �I follow Apollos,� or �I follow Cephas,� or �I follow Christ.� 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. -ESV
Which I always thought was quite the stretch but they sure were convinced...
I have no dog in this fight, but it is a topic that I've discussed with others before, without any clear resolution. I have only one simple question. If someone was a Christian and followed the Bible, and for whatever reason was not baptised at time of death, would they get into heaven? Is there any wiggle room or is it straight up black and white?
I have no dog in this fight, but it is a topic that I've discussed with others before, without any clear resolution. I have only one simple question. If someone was a Christian and followed the Bible, and for whatever reason was not baptised at time of death, would they get into heaven? Is there any wiggle room or is it straight up black and white?
The Church of Christ delegation to the forum insist that baptism is a requirement for salvation.
They are FOS on that point.
It is significant, I think, that Ringman, Orange Okie, etal can expound endlessly about the Bible and Christianity, but I don't recall them ever mentioning anything Jesus has done for THEM, personally.
Me...? I was a tongue-chewing, babbling, idiot drunk when I finally asked Him for help 29 years ago. He is the only way a man can get from where I was to where I am.
And where I am is a real good place.
All Jesus requires is all you've got and all you are and then He gives you back all you will ever need.
Satan can, and will, introduce doubts about the validity of your conversion to Christ, which takes place inside our head and heart.
A physical act, such as baptism, is impossible for even Satan to discount. At some actual point in time, at some actual physical place, we actually DID something. No Power can erase THAT. So baptism is useful, but it is for OUR benefit....... not God's.
As far as I'm concerned,adding any ingredients other than Jesus and a contrite heart into the mix is doing Satan's work for him.
I only argue with these posters on the off chance that someone like I used to be might be reading.
Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) . . .
Just for the record, Paul does not say in Ephesians or anywhere else in scripture the "faith alone" or "faith only" saves.
Perhaps not explicitly but that certainly seems the thrust of his teaching against the Judaizers in Gal 2 & 3... a book which, by the way, played a key role in Luther's Protestation against the Roman establishment which taught that (Romish) baptism was necessary for salvation:
Gal 2: 15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified[b] by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness[c] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by[a] the flesh? 4 Did you suffer[b] so many things in vain�if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith� 6 just as Abraham �believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness�?
7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify[c] the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, �In you shall all the nations be blessed.� 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, �Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.� 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for �The righteous shall live by faith.�[d] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather �The one who does them shall live by them.� 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us�for it is written, �Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree�� 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit[e] through faith.
The Law and the Promise
15 To give a human example, brothers:[f] even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, �And to offsprings,� referring to many, but referring to one, �And to your offspring,� who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[g] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Why anyone would refuse the physical sign & seal of God's graciousness is a mystery to me, but salvation is indeed apart from it.
I have no dog in this fight, but it is a topic that I've discussed with others before, without any clear resolution. I have only one simple question. If someone was a Christian and followed the Bible, and for whatever reason was not baptised at time of death, would they get into heaven? Is there any wiggle room or is it straight up black and white?
You only get to heaven based on what Jesus has done, not on anything you or I could do. The Pharisees, past and present, including those involved with this thread, would have you believe otherwise. Only by faith, and that a gift of God, will one enter the Kingdom. Once a person believes and accepts by faith the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, and what HE did, that person will likely WANT to be baptized, in obedience to scripture and as a public confession of faith. I rather suspect God's grace is sufficient to cover those who for whatever reason, deathbed conversion perhaps, have not been baptized before their death and they will indeed, be allowed to enter the Kingdom. Again, that because of what Jesus did.
To be baptized or "immersed". Think of a cucumber being immersed and forever changed into a pickle. It can never be just a cucumber again. The same way with being baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We are forever changed on the inside, and can never again be just a man. Once Jesus comes into our hearts and lives in us and through us, we are man as he created us to be(in a personal, loving relationship with HIM). YMMV. Take Care. GOD Bless.
It is significant, I think, that Ringman, Orange Okie, etal can expound endlessly about the Bible and Christianity, but I don't recall them ever mentioning anything Jesus has done for THEM, personally.
For at least ten years I was convinced, like you are, that baptism was not necessary for salvation. I read Galatians all the way through every morning and every evening for a week because my pastor wanted me to get something he didn't think I got. he didn't approved that I was actually obeying the New Testament instructions. But I still believed, like you do, that baptism was not necessary.
Then in a Bible study a guy brought something else Apostle Paul wrote to my mind. He spoke about Col Colosians 2:8-12.
"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
You see I can never go back to where you are about Jesus not meaning what He says at the end of Matthew and Mark. You can get to where I am once you see HE means what He says.
As far as Jesus doing something. I wrote a book titled And These Things Will Follow. It will be re-released in the next month or so. Quite a bit of my testimony is in it. It contains about twenty-five to thirty signs, wonders, miracles, and healings God granted me and others in my presence. I wasn't a drunk or wife beater or child molester that I can brag about being saved from. I was just an arrogant lost sinner in need of The Savior. My life changed so much on June 26, 1974 a coworker laughed in my face. Even my boss wanted to know what happen to me. My wife thought it was a phase I was going though. After some months she was convinced it was real and also accepted Jesus as Lord.
Quote: Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Apparently Paul lied. I wonder how many have gone to hell because they believed this passage.
If it comes down to Apostle Paul or Jesus, I will go with What Jesus says. You need to read Ken Howell's Who Will Enter The Kingdom Of God. It will give you a better understanding of God's Word and what you see and hear in the church.
To be baptized or "immersed". Think of a cucumber being immersed and forever changed into a pickle. It can never be just a cucumber again. The same way with being baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We are forever changed on the inside, and can never again be just a man. Once Jesus comes into our hearts and lives in us and through us, we are man as he created us to be(in a personal, loving relationship with HIM). YMMV. Take Care. GOD Bless.
Tim I appreciate your answer, but I really did get a good chuckle out of you pickling analogy! I know what you meant, but if I ever am present at a baptism I'm going to have to try hard not to think of it as someone getting pickled, or I might cause a scene!
Quote: Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Apparently Paul lied. I wonder how many have gone to hell because they believed this passage.
If it comes down to Apostle Paul or Jesus, I will go with What Jesus says.
That's a big "if" since God's word doesn't contradict itself.
Exactly! It is to be taken in Its entirety. We are not allowed to pick and choose to leave out Scripture. One needs to use all there is on a subject to build a proper belief just as one needs to use all the bricks to build a building.
So if someone is in the ER and chooses to turn his life over to the Lord, repents, and takes Jesus as his personal Savior but is not removed from the ER and fully immersed in the water before he dies then he is damned to suffer in Hell for eternity? How about someone who dies of a heart attack on the way to the Baptismal?
There goes mercy and grace right out the door.
No wonder searchers like some here run from Christians.
If we were discussing a man long dead, then books about him would be the only resource available to us.
But we Christians have a personal relationship with the Risen Jesus.
Now, I have a personal relationship with Ken Howell. It would be ridiculous for me to send PM's to other forum members asking what Ken's position is on a topic. Some might refer me to some of his writings, or report what he told them at some point.
But.... I have Ken's phone number in my cell phone and his email address in my contacts list.
Why wouldn't I just ask Ken about his position.
You see, Neighbor, I was baptized into a Baptist Church when I was 12 YO, so the whole question about it was settled long ago in my case.
I'm not a one note Johnny putting down Baptism as being unnecessary for a Christian.I just reject the notion that Jesus requires ANYTHING from a supplicant other than surrender to Him or any act requiring third party involvement.
As far as me "bragging about being a drunk", I'll just put that in the category of a cheap shot.
I just reject the notion that Jesus requires ANYTHING from a supplicant other than surrender to Him or any act requiring third party involvement..
Well said...!
Jesus is ideal and wonderful, but some 'Christians' distance people from Him instead of drawing people to Him...some have perverted His teachings with ideology.
I was baptize by Jesus with the Holy Spirit long before I was immersed in water at age 12.
If someone feels that they were baptized during the water immersion, all power to them... if they claim all others cannot attain salvation without 'their' belief... they're mistaken.
So if someone is in the ER and chooses to turn his life over to the Lord, repents, and takes Jesus as his personal Savior but is not removed from the ER and fully immersed in the water before he dies then he is damned to suffer in Hell for eternity? How about someone who dies of a heart attack on the way to the Baptismal?
There goes mercy and grace right out the door.
No wonder searchers like some here run from Christians.
Maybe you could tell us what Jesus meant at the end of Matthew and Mark. I bet I'm not the only one waiting to read about it. Maybe even some of the "searchers".
I was baptized into THAT particular Baptist congregation. After that, I could apply for membership in a different Baptist congregation without the need for another baptism.
Each Baptist congregation is independent and autonomous, but no Baptist congregation considers baptism as being necessary for salvation.
Jesus is ideal and wonderful, but some 'Christians' distance people from Him instead of drawing people to Him...some have perverted His teachings with ideology.
From where did those who believe in water baptism get their "ideology"?
Now, I have a personal relationship with Ken Howell. It would be ridiculous for me to send PM's to other forum members asking what Ken's position is on a topic. Some might refer me to some of his writings, or report what he told them at some point.
But.... I have Ken's phone number in my cell phone and his email address in my contacts list.
Why wouldn't I just ask Ken about his position.
I have talked with Ken a few times on the phone and shared emails and private messages with him. Nevertheless I don't understand your point here. Is it because I suggested to someone here to read his essay? I think his essay Who Will Enter The Kingdom Of God should be read by every Christian and while we're at it every non-Christian.
Quote
As far as me "bragging about being a drunk", I'll just put that in the category of a cheap shot.
That in no was was meant as a put down. Jesus reaches out to everyone, even those who didn't live an exciting life prior to their conversion. One guy I was instrumental in bringing to the Lord was on the board of his church. He was an upstanding man in the community. But he needed Jesus just as much as anyone else. All I did was share God's love and God's Word with him. He told me, "I thought I was a Christian till I met you."
I was baptize by Jesus with the Holy Spirit long before I was immersed in water at age 12.
If someone feels that they were baptized during the water immersion, all power to them... if they claim all others cannot attain salvation without 'their' belief... they're mistaken.
Kent
I feel that way sometimes too. 'Cept I never got wet like you. There are times I think back to when I was a kid. My mom and dad used to fight a lot. I can always remember thinking of the Lord while they were yellin. This was before mom and dad started sending me and my sister to summer bible school in the evenings. How did I know of Him? My parents werent what you would consider religious. My dad is Catholic, but never went to church. Mom wasnt baptized that I know of. They never had a bible around me that I know of. I mean they must have mentioned Jesus at some point, like I said they sent us to bible school. But the never taught us about Him. I remember one time in kindergarten, alone, by this stack of books. I picked one which happened to be the bible. I didnt know what I was reading or what it meant. Out of all the books there, why did I pick that one? Im not saying I was baptized by the Lord with the Holy Spirit in the sense you are. I guess I mean it feels like He's been with me forever, before anyone mentioned Him. I dont know, hard to explain.
Thanks for keeping things going here guys, really interesting for sure!
One guy I was instrumental in bringing to the Lord was on the board of his church. He was an upstanding man in the community. But he needed Jesus just as much as anyone else. All I did was share God's love and God's Word with him. He told me, "I thought I was a Christian till I met you."
I was baptized into THAT particular Baptist congregation. After that, I could apply for membership in a different Baptist congregation without the need for another baptism.
Each Baptist congregation is independent and autonomous, but no Baptist congregation considers baptism as being necessary for salvation.
I knew exactly what you meant, I was just jerking your chin for the fun of it.
So if someone is in the ER and chooses to turn his life over to the Lord, repents, and takes Jesus as his personal Savior but is not removed from the ER and fully immersed in the water before he dies then he is damned to suffer in Hell for eternity? How about someone who dies of a heart attack on the way to the Baptismal?
There goes mercy and grace right out the door.
No wonder searchers like some here run from Christians.
Maybe you could tell us what Jesus meant at the end of Matthew and Mark. I bet I'm not the only one waiting to read about it. Maybe even some of the "searchers".
So it is fully immersed or Hell, no way a round it? We might as well be under the Law.
Im not saying I was baptized by the Lord with the Holy Spirit in the sense you are. I guess I mean it feels like He's been with me forever, before anyone mentioned Him. I dont know, hard to explain.
I understand completely, I can't remember a time when I didn't know at some level.
He declared that everyone that calls upon His name shall be saved. That pretty much describes devine, authentic, agape love. It doesn't depend on rituals and traditions, piety, or good deeds.
Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) . . .
Just for the record, Paul does not say in Ephesians or anywhere else in scripture the "faith alone" or "faith only" saves.
Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast
So it is fully immersed or Hell, no way a round it? We might as well be under the Law.
We are under law:
1 Corinthians 9:19-21
"For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law."
Quote: Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Apparently Paul lied. I wonder how many have gone to hell because they believed this passage.
If it comes down to Apostle Paul or Jesus, I will go with What Jesus says. You need to read Ken Howell's Who Will Enter The Kingdom Of God. It will give you a better understanding of God's Word and what you see and hear in the church.
Can you send me a copy of Ken's writing? I also sent a pm to Ken asking for a copy.
I just reject the notion that Jesus requires ANYTHING from a supplicant other than surrender to Him or any act requiring third party involvement..
Well said...!
Jesus is ideal and wonderful, but some 'Christians' distance people from Him instead of drawing people to Him...some have perverted His teachings with ideology.
You're right about the perversion.
When Jesus freed mankind from the tyranny of the Law, many rushed right back into their shackles, forming a system of priests. bishops, etc.
Many individuals follow the same path after their conversion. The ego and its attendant self centeredness puts on a different suit of clothes and takes possession once again. [Don't ask me how this came to my attention ]
I think this was the reason for the warning about "presuming to be teachers" given by one of the NT writers. The last thing I needed was to "be judged more harshly than the rest", so I resigned from my self appointed teaching position, and life has been GOOD.
BTW....these guys don't discuss Jesus. THAT might attract a seeker or two.
They argue the bible, a book which is NOT helpful to a man at the start of his spiritual quest.
BTW....these guys don't discuss Jesus. THAT might attract a seeker or two.
They argue the bible, a book which is NOT helpful to a man at the start of his spiritual quest.
Where does one learn about Jesus other than from the Bible?! From the day I became a Christian I spent five hours per day reading Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I did this for three months to learn about Jesus.
Quote: Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Apparently Paul lied. I wonder how many have gone to hell because they believed this passage.
If it comes down to Apostle Paul or Jesus, I will go with What Jesus says.
Whoa...! Isn't it ALL the inspired word of God...? Why would what Jesus said in the New Testament carry more weight than what Paul said in the New Testament...if God Himself was speaking through Paul...?
Whoa...! Isn't it ALL the inspired word of God...? Why would what Jesus said in the New Testament carry more weight than what Paul said in the New Testament...if God Himself was speaking through Paul...?
Yes.
It wouldn't.
Why do people here place Apostle Paul's writings above Jesus Word?
I really enjoy seeing your insight on these matters. Some 'Christians' do seem to prefer the safety or exclusivity of organized religion, belief, and groupthink and blindly follow ideology instead of following the simple teachings of Jesus. Sorta like a group membership in a club of sorts.....and I think critical thinking and truth beats a team jersey all day long. The notion that the Creator of the universe can be bribed with piety, good works, rituals and traditions...even though it has widespread acceptance by many.....is contradictory to His message of unconditional love, truth, and acceptance of His gift. Some are OK with being shackled and controlled by ideology...which is easily manipulated by the clergy (like the Pharisees).
I really enjoy seeing your insight on these matters. Some 'Christians' do seem to prefer the safety or exclusivity of organized religion, belief, and groupthink and blindly follow ideology instead of following the simple teachings of Jesus. Sorta like a group membership in a club of sorts.....and I think critical thinking and truth beats a team jersey all day long. The notion that the Creator of the universe can be bribed with piety, good works, rituals and traditions...even though it has widespread acceptance by many.....is contradictory to His message of unconditional love, truth, and acceptance of His gift. Some are OK with being shackled and controlled by ideology...which is easily manipulated by the clergy (like the Pharisees).
If
John 14:15 ��If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.��
John 15:1-6 ��I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. You are My friends if you do what I command you.��
Romans 11:22 �Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God�s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.�
2 Timothy 2:12 �If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;�
Hebrews3:6,12,14 �Christ was faithful as a Son over His house�whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,�
Hebrews 10:36-38 �For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.�
"That IF you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." - Paul (inspired by God)
Period.
"The greatest lesson is one that can't be taught, but WILL be learned. It is a blessing to learn it in time for it to make a difference in the quality of THIS life." - curdog4570
You and I approach life differently, it's plain to see. For instance,among ALL the verses you just copied. I find THIS:
"Abide in Me, and I in you."
I see my spiritual life - just like my worldly life - as an endeavor of action. So once I read that clear, concise,instruction from our Lord, the rest of the passage is extraneous.
Jesus didn't leave us with a road map for our journey. We would have to be constantly referring to it, even memorizing it as much as possible. We wouldn't be much help to any of our fellow travelers or enjoy the trip much ourselves with our head buried in a map.
Instead, He gave us our own personal Guide and the pathway is clearly revealed, but only one step at a time, one day at a time.
John 15:13-14 (KJV) "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, ifye do whatsoever I command you."
� Can you send me a copy of Ken's writing? I also sent a pm to Ken asking for a copy. �
Who Shall Enter the Kingdom of God?, as requested, should be on your 'puter for about an hour or more already. It'll take-up about 25�30 sheets of paper if you print it.
And you're quite a skookum fellow if you can absorb it all in one cruise through it! Don't forget to ask the Holy Spirit to shed some light on it in the Name of Jesus!
I view baptism as an outward expression of an inner change and one of the first acts of obedience for the new Christian!
Why not get started on the right foot?
Do I think you have to be baptized to get into heaven, no I do not.
Do I think you should be baptized if able, yes I do.
Mike
Ready . . . I am sure you are sincere in your statements of belief . . . I would only urge you to find the "same exact words" you used to express your opinions in the Scriptures. The exact words of Jesus and his Apostles carry much weight and gravitas and are in direct opposition to the opinions you hold.
OrangeOkie I was referring to the physical submersion in water baptism only. I believe in deathbed conversion and foxhole conversion and don't believe submersion in water is necessary that is all.
The Dake comments posted above by Dr. Howell are exactly in line with my beliefs.
Quote: Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Apparently Paul lied. I wonder how many have gone to hell because they believed this passage.
If it comes down to Apostle Paul or Jesus, I will go with What Jesus says. You need to read Ken Howell's Who Will Enter The Kingdom Of God. It will give you a better understanding of God's Word and what you see and hear in the church.
If you choose between the words of Jesus and Paul, you're saying that 1 is in error and the Bible conflicts with itself. That can't be. Clearly it's us who are misunderstanding the words. Paul was hand picked by Christ to take the word to the gentiles and Jesus gave him exactly the words to say. Paul's words ARE Jesus' words. Paul gave us this instruction on how to be saved and that's exactly what's necessary. It's 1 verse out of a long expose on salvation and nowhere in it is baptism mentioned. It's Jesus' words placed in Paul's mouth. Clearly the words spoken by Jesus can't mean immersed in water because He said through Paul that that isn't necessary. As was said before, the Greek word 'baptize' means immerse, not immerse in water. Since water isn't required, it has to mean immerse in the Word or immerse in the Holy Spirit.
"That IF you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." - Paul (inspired by God)
You're attempting to interpret one verse in isolation from other relevant verses. The "if you believe" part implies also the obedience that goes along with believing.
Quote: Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Apparently Paul lied. I wonder how many have gone to hell because they believed this passage.
If it comes down to Apostle Paul or Jesus, I will go with What Jesus says. You need to read Ken Howell's Who Will Enter The Kingdom Of God. It will give you a better understanding of God's Word and what you see and hear in the church.
If you choose between the words of Jesus and Paul, you're saying that 1 is in error and the Bible conflicts with itself. That can't be. Clearly it's us who are misunderstanding the words. Paul was hand picked by Christ to take the word to the gentiles and Jesus gave him exactly the words to say. Paul's words ARE Jesus' words. Paul gave us this instruction on how to be saved and that's exactly what's necessary. It's 1 verse out of a long expose on salvation and nowhere in it is baptism mentioned. It's Jesus' words placed in Paul's mouth. Clearly the words spoken by Jesus can't mean immersed in water because He said through Paul that that isn't necessary. As was said before, the Greek word 'baptize' means immerse, not immerse in water. Since water isn't required, it has to mean immerse in the Word or immerse in the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said you must be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, both.
I have no dog in this fight, but it is a topic that I've discussed with others before, without any clear resolution. I have only one simple question. If someone was a Christian and followed the Bible, and for whatever reason was not baptised at time of death, would they get into heaven? Is there any wiggle room or is it straight up black and white?
Thief on the cross.
Look for my response in this thread in reference to the chances are much greater than not that the thief on the cross WAS baptised for the remission of sins.
We know for a fact that the Pharisees and Lawyers rejected the counsel of God and the baptism of John. (Luke 7:29-30)
29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
When it comes to baptism, I identify with the people and the publicans . . . how about you?
I was baptize by Jesus with the Holy Spirit long before I was immersed in water at age 12.
If someone feels that they were baptized during the water immersion, all power to them... if they claim all others cannot attain salvation without 'their' belief... they're mistaken.
Kent
Paul claimed there was but ONE baptism 2000 years ago. Can't have it both ways.
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, . . .
OrangeOkie I was referring to the physical submersion in water baptism only. I believe in deathbed conversion and foxhole conversion and don't believe submersion in water is necessary that is all.
Mike
Mike, can you find any example of a deathbed or "fox hole" conversion in the scripture that supports your belief that does not include baptism? Every example of conversion in the book of acts includes baptism. All included the hearing of the gospel, belief in the gospel, repentance from sins, confession of Christ as the son of God, and baptism in the name of Christ for the remission of their sins . . . whether each specific personal act was mentioned or not.
Quote: Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Apparently Paul lied. I wonder how many have gone to hell because they believed this passage.
If it comes down to Apostle Paul or Jesus, I will go with What Jesus says. You need to read Ken Howell's Who Will Enter The Kingdom Of God. It will give you a better understanding of God's Word and what you see and hear in the church.
If you choose between the words of Jesus and Paul, you're saying that 1 is in error and the Bible conflicts with itself. That can't be. Clearly it's us who are misunderstanding the words. Paul was hand picked by Christ to take the word to the gentiles and Jesus gave him exactly the words to say. Paul's words ARE Jesus' words. Paul gave us this instruction on how to be saved and that's exactly what's necessary. It's 1 verse out of a long expose on salvation and nowhere in it is baptism mentioned. It's Jesus' words placed in Paul's mouth. Clearly the words spoken by Jesus can't mean immersed in water because He said through Paul that that isn't necessary. As was said before, the Greek word 'baptize' means immerse, not immerse in water. Since water isn't required, it has to mean immerse in the Word or immerse in the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said you must be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, both.
He declared that everyone that calls upon His name shall be saved. That pretty much describes devine, authentic, agape love. It doesn't depend on rituals and traditions, piety, or good deeds.
He also commands that you be baptized for the remission of sins. Why err on the side of doing the lesser?
He declared that everyone that calls upon His name shall be saved. That pretty much describes devine, authentic, agape love. It doesn't depend on rituals and traditions, piety, or good deeds.
He also commands that you be baptized for the remission of sins. Why err on the side of doing the lesser?
I agree 100% that all Christians need to get baptized but I do not agree with it being a requirement for salvation. I once ministered to a man in prison who had been going to our bible studies and doing well until the Church of Christ informed him that he was going to hell despite his best efforts and his asking Jesus to save him, since he had not been baptized. That same night he attempted suicide by overdose. Later when I spoke to him about it again, he just told me he felt damned no matter what, so he might as well get it over with.
Another time my sister told me about an incident by the Church of Christ. They had a terminal member in the cancer ward that wanted to be baptized. She was a large woman with a stomach tumor. They attempted to baptize her in the whirl pool in the physical therapy room. The problem was that the COC minister nearly killed her because all of her had to be submerged at the same time in order for her baptism to be valid. He was attempting to shove her swollen stomach under while holding her head under at the same time. He had so much trouble getting her stomach submerged that the nurses had to make him release her head to breath. My sister said that he nearly drowned her and would have had they not been present.
The real root of the division of thought concerning the absolute necessity of water baptism is the insistence by some posters to confine the Creator of the universe to the pages of a book.
The Creator said He would write His law on our hearts.
I reject the notion that He gave some of you instructions for the rest of us.
You believe water baptism is essential for salvation? Then take comfort in your fulfillment of the requirement without trying to create doubt in the minds of new converts who may be reading what you post.
I recall something one of the N T writers said about a millstone.................. .
So, it looks like we're pretty well split down the middle as to whether or not baptism is required for entry to heaven. Interesting, I didn't think it would be quite that even. Thanks guys.
I hope you realize you are battling the most powerful force in the universe........... the human ego.
God placed it outside the boundaries of even His power.
The COC's insistence on baptism is just the camel's nose under the tent. If they could succeed in convincing us of that, they have an endless supply of other "requirements".
The real root of the division of thought concerning the absolute necessity of water baptism is the insistence by some posters to confine the Creator of the universe to the pages of a book.
The Creator said He would write His law on our hearts.
I reject the notion that He gave some of you instructions for the rest of us.
You believe water baptism is essential for salvation? Then take comfort in your fulfillment of the requirement without trying to create doubt in the minds of new converts who may be reading what you post.
I recall something one of the N T writers said about a millstone.................. .
The real root of the division of thought concerning the absolute necessity of water baptism is the insistence by some posters to confine the Creator of the universe to the pages of a book.
The Creator said He would write His law on our hearts.
I reject the notion that He gave some of you instructions for the rest of us.
You believe water baptism is essential for salvation? Then take comfort in your fulfillment of the requirement without trying to create doubt in the minds of new converts who may be reading what you post.
I recall something one of the N T writers said about a millstone.................. .
The Bible was left to us as the word of God. It is the only roadmap for salvation that we have. How I feel in my heart is irrelavent. I must follow the word and the example set in the word to the best of my ability. Disregarding baptism as a requirement for salvation is disregarding a direct command. I cannot chose to ignore it simply because it does not appear in all passages related to salvation. It is mentioned enough times to convey to me that it was very important to God. I cannot speak toward the salvation of the people in the the botched baptism attempts mentioned in the post above, but I would hate to have to answer for not attempting to baptise someone because it was logistically difficult.
I hope you realize you are battling the most powerful force in the universe........... the human ego.
God placed it outside the boundaries of even His power.
The COC's insistence on baptism is just the camel's nose under the tent. If they could succeed in convincing us of that, they have an endless supply of other "requirements".
There is no satisfying the human ego.
The COC as you label it, places no "requirements" on any person. It is not even an organized denomination, just a labeling of similar churches who attempt to follow the Scriptures without manmade organizations and traditions. "Requirements" are mandated only by Scripture. Baptism is one of them.
God bless you all and have a merry Christmas. Love the Lord with all your heart, soul, strength and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. Everything else will just fall into place.
I hope you realize you are battling the most powerful force in the universe........... the human ego.
God placed it outside the boundaries of even His power.
The COC's insistence on baptism is just the camel's nose under the tent. If they could succeed in convincing us of that, they have an endless supply of other "requirements".
There is no satisfying the human ego.
The COC as you label it, places no "requirements" on any person. It is not even an organized denomination, just a labeling of similar churches who attempt to follow the Scriptures without manmade organizations and traditions. "Requirements" are mandated only by Scripture. Baptism is one of them.
Obedience, not diligent scholarship, is the key to beginning to understand God.
Man says "If I agree with Him when I finally figure Him out, I MAY go along with Him."
The child (of whatever age) begins to understand Him AFTER he starts obeying Him.
A scanning transmission electron microscope (STEM) can reveal a lot of the tiniest, most remote secrets of lasagna � except how it tastes.
Very true, but to be obedient you have to know what to obey.
And you won't find it in your belly button.
Or in random perusals of a few individual verses.
"Do this" and "don't do that" aren't hard to find.
Haven't ever heard anybody claim that he didn't know and couldn't find-out what to obey.
Have know plenty that don't seem to know what to obey even when it is clearly written. Paying attention to details does not preclude seeing the bigger picture as well.
You and I approach life differently, it's plain to see. For instance,among ALL the verses you just copied. I find THIS:
"Abide in Me, and I in you."
I see my spiritual life - just like my worldly life - as an endeavor of action. So once I read that clear, concise,instruction from our Lord, the rest of the passage is extraneous.
Jesus didn't leave us with a road map for our journey. We would have to be constantly referring to it, even memorizing it as much as possible. We wouldn't be much help to any of our fellow travelers or enjoy the trip much ourselves with our head buried in a map.
Instead, He gave us our own personal Guide and the pathway is clearly revealed, but only one step at a time, one day at a time.
That's how the "abiding deal" has worked for me.
^^^ I believe this should be our daily walk^^^ I just wish I was better at it.
I won't even bother to bring up foot washing even though Jesus said to do it.
LOL, I LOVE IT. A guy at work was talking about this the other day. All I had to say was, Jesus didn't mean to literally go wash feet he meant go and be a servant but if you want to have a foot washing at church to show humility and a servants heart I believe that touches the Lords heart too so Iits all good.
I got enuff of my own problems without debating scripture, we are our own worst enemy. I just want to keeit simple, love God and love your neighbor.
The real root of the division of thought concerning "faith only salvation" is the insistence by some posters to confine the Creator of the universe to the pages of a book.
The Creator said He would write His law on our hearts.
I reject the notion that He gave some of you instructions for the rest of us.
You believe faith alone will save the sinner? Then take comfort in your fulfillment of the requirement without trying to create doubt in the minds of new converts who may be reading what you post.
I recall something one of the N T writers said about a millstone.................. .
My brother and I were discussing this very topic. I agreed with what you are esposing. He told me I was wrong. Since I have a friend who can read the Hebrew and the Greek and the only "B" he got in his college career was in logic I called him. Of course I was expecting him to support my claim agreeing with your post. I was wrong. He said there is a different word in the Greek for water of birth.
So, it looks like we're pretty well split down the middle as to whether or not baptism is required for entry to heaven. Interesting, I didn't think it would be quite that even. Thanks guys.
It doesn't matter what we say. It matters what Jesus says.
Mark 16:16 "'He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.'"
Originally Posted By: Scott F I won't even bother to bring up foot washing even though Jesus said to do it.
LOL, I LOVE IT. A guy at work was talking about this the other day. All I had to say was, Jesus didn't mean to literally go wash feet he meant go and be a servant but if you want to have a foot washing at church to show humility and a servants heart I believe that touches the Lords heart too so Iits all good.
Upon what do you base this assertion?
Apostle Paul, whom so many here seemed to love, told the early church if a woman didn't wash the saints feet she was not allowed "welfare".
Define 'baptize' in the context Jesus was referring.
Matthew 28:19-20
"'Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.'�
Acts 8:26-39
"But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, 'Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.' (This is a desert road.) So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then the Spirit said to Philip, 'Go up and join this chariot.' Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, 'Do you understand what you are reading?' And he said, 'Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?' And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this:
�'He was led as a sheep to slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He does not open His mouth. �'In humiliation His judgment was taken away; Who will [k]relate His [l]generation? For His life is removed from the earth.'� The eunuch answered Philip and said, 'Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?' Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, 'Look!Water! What prevents me from being baptized?� And Philip said, 'If you believe with all your heart, you may.' And he answered and said, 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.' And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing."
Act 10:44-48
"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?' And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days."
I have never been immersed in water, however I accept the gift of salvation that Jesus Christ gave to us with his suffering and death on a Roman Cross, where he died for the sins of all men. All who believe that a man died and rose from the dead, all that accept the gift of Jesus are saved. Nothing that man can do, no ritual, no immersion, no fingering beads on a chain, or wearing the torah in your hat, no piety, no goodwill, nothing that a man can do can equal that gift or pay the price for our sins. Dunk all you want, believe what you want, I accept the free gift that Jesus gave to all sinners.
Some here try to equate baptism with human works. God tells us our good works are like filthy rags. Therefore water baptism is not our works, but His. Consider the following parable.
How much work do you do if you go to the mailbox and discover a free gift in the form of a check for $10,000; with a note instructing you to go to your bank, endorse the check and cash it?
How much work are you doing when you get into your car and drive to the bank? How about getting out of your car and walking into the bank, are you doing anything to earn the $10,000? When you pick up the pen and endorse the check are you working to earn the money?
Continuing, are you doing something to earn the gift when you get out your I.D. and prove you are the legal recipient of the free gift? Are you adding to the finished work of the writer of the check?
Of course the answer is the same for every one of the above questions.
You are doing nothing to earn the free gift. It�s free. You are adding nothing to the requirements. However, if you want to appropriate the funds of the gift, you must do certain prescribed actions demanded by accepting the free gift. So it is with salvation and water baptism. Water baptism in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is cashing the check drawn on Jesus' Blood.
Define 'baptize' in the context Jesus was referring.
Matthew 28:19-20
"'Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.'�
Acts 8:26-39
"But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, 'Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.' (This is a desert road.) So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then the Spirit said to Philip, 'Go up and join this chariot.' Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, 'Do you understand what you are reading?' And he said, 'Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?' And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this:
�'He was led as a sheep to slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He does not open His mouth. �'In humiliation His judgment was taken away; Who will [k]relate His [l]generation? For His life is removed from the earth.'� The eunuch answered Philip and said, 'Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?' Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, 'Look!Water! What prevents me from being baptized?� And Philip said, 'If you believe with all your heart, you may.' And he answered and said, 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.' And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing."
Act 10:44-48
"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?' And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days."
So you don't know Jesus's mind at the time 'he' spoke.
Brother Ringman, you can spin it any way you want but works is having to do something other than believe. It's an action or act. It's works because according to you, if you fail to do it nothing else counts. All your belief, all your faith, all your love is worth zero if you fail to do this one thing. It's a work and you can't get around that.
If you want to believe that we are saved by faith and works, that's fine but nothing you can say will convince those who know better that works are necessary.
Brother Ringman, you can spin it any way you want but works is having to do something other than believe. It's an action or act. It's works because according to you, if you fail to do it nothing else counts. All your belief, all your faith, all your love is worth zero if you fail to do this one thing. It's a work and you can't get around that.
If you want to believe that we are saved by faith and works, that's fine but nothing you can say will convince those who know better that works are necessary.
Do you believe Romans 10-9-10?
"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
If you will notice the faith results in righteousness, but the confession (works part of it) results in salvation.
Do you believe Philippians 2:12-13?
"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
If you are not working out your salvation, God is not working in you. You are not saved!
1 Peter 1:2
"obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure."
So you don't know Jesus's mind at the time 'he' spoke.
You didn't ask if I knew Jesus' thoughts at the time. You asked me to define baptism; which I did. And yes I know His thought at the time. He state His thoughts,
Mark 16:15-16
"And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.'"
So now we have the definition of baptism and recorded what Jesus thought at the time.
Brother Ringman, you can spin it any way you want but works is having to do something other than believe. It's an action or act. It's works because according to you, if you fail to do it nothing else counts. All your belief, all your faith, all your love is worth zero if you fail to do this one thing. It's a work and you can't get around that.
If you want to believe that we are saved by faith and works, that's fine but nothing you can say will convince those who know better that works are necessary.
Do you believe Romans 10-9-10?
"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
If you will notice the faith results in righteousness, but the confession (works part of it) results in salvation.
Do you believe Philippians 2:12-13?
"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
If you are not working out your salvation, God is not working in you. You are not saved!
1 Peter 1:2
"obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure."
So then mute people can't be saved, right, since we must do the works part. I guess you could say they could use sign language, so that just leaves out mute people with no hands. I guess they could think it in their mind if they couldn't speak and had no hands to sign with. That gets us right back to believing doesn't it.
Give us and example from the Book of Acts where someone was saved without water baptism, please. It would make it easier for us Bible thumpers. We could at least leave that one thing behind.
Brother Ringman, you can spin it any way you want but works is having to do something other than believe. It's an action or act. It's works because according to you, if you fail to do it nothing else counts. All your belief, all your faith, all your love is worth zero if you fail to do this one thing. It's a work and you can't get around that.
If you want to believe that we are saved by faith and works, that's fine but nothing you can say will convince those who know better that works are necessary.
Well said.
Just prior to my retirement in 2007, we sold our place in Young County and moved to Woodson.Tx, in Throckmorton County.
The Pop. sign read 299, so I figured Teresa and I put it over the 300 mark.
Woodson had 4 churches. That's more than usual for a town that size, but not remarkable.
What IS remarkable is that in addition to the one expected Baptist Church, there was:
A Christian Church [Disciples of Christ]
A Church of Christ [Campbellite]
Another Church of Christ [Campbellite]
My next door neighbor was a main player in the newer COC, which he helped start because the other COC wasn't "worshiping properly". [I made the comment that God could "talk" to me thru a comic book if it suited him, and he counted me as beyond redemption. ] He was a good neighbor, though.
It, of course, was started because the Disciples of Christ Church had strayed.
Some folks are just too "special" to be associated with the other 99%of the Christian family, I reckon.
So then mute people can't be saved, right, since we must do the works part. I guess you could say they could use sign language, so that just leaves out mute people with no hands. I guess they could think it in their mind if they couldn't speak and had no hands to sign with. That gets us right back to believing doesn't it.
It gets you back to being argumentative, it seems to me. I didn't write any of God's Word. I quote it here and ask others to show me Scripture to support their positions.
You see I don't understand God. Look how he handled a disobedient man named Akin. He kept something for himself from the city of Jericho. What did God do. He killed thirty-six others who didn't keep anything for themselves. Then he had Joshua bring out Akin's whole family, you know wife, kids, pets and livestock. Then God told him to kill them and then burn them and then bury them under stones. Why kill the first thirty-six people? Why kill his wife? Why kill his kids? There is no way I will take something away from What Jesus says or add something to What He says.
Someone here says Jesus didn't mean wash feet. Then why did He bring it up. His whole life showed service. There is no need to exchange what He says for something we want Him to say.
God says "confess with your mouth." If God wants to save the mute, the mute will confess with his mouth. God says there will be few who are saved and many who are not. Even among them who say, "Lord, Lord."
I believe the thief on the cross was accurately and specifically mentioned In order to settle the issue.
To me it takes a greater stretch to believe he was somehow previously baptized than that God could just save him and take him to heaven.
We know what we see, hear and feel. God knows hearts and minds.
Reading some of these squibbles it would appear that some feel God needs us not that He wants us. It's not rocket science, it is serious but if you have the blood of Jesus covering your sins nothing else matters! Jesus and Jesus alone! To add anything else is to trample on His blood. I'm no "religious" expert but I'm secure in that belief!
It may just be my imagination, but I seem to be hearing a way-up-yonder Somebody saying "Now, don't you boys make Me have to come down there!"
Zephaniah 1:14-17
"'Near is the great day of the Lord, Near and coming very quickly; Listen, the day of the Lord! In it the warrior cries out bitterly. A day of wrath is that day, A day of trouble and distress, A day of destruction and desolation, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of trumpet and battle cry Against the fortified cities And the high corner towers. I will bring distress on men so that they will walk like the blind, because they have sinned against the Lord;'"
It may just be my imagination, but I seem to be hearing a way-up-yonder Somebody saying "Now, don't you boys make Me have to come down there!"
I hope he is just laughing at some of these posts. I know I am. If God didn't have a really good sense of humor he wouldn't have made some of us so funny.
� Near is the great day of the Lord, Near and coming very quickly; Listen, the day of the Lord! In it the warrior cries out bitterly. A day of wrath is that day, A day of trouble and distress, A day of destruction and desolation, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness, A day of trumpet and battle cry Against the fortified cities And the high corner towers. I will bring distress on men so that they will walk like the blind, because they have sinned against the Lord.
A couple more questions, if I may. IF baptism is indeed required, then what sort of baptism is it? Submersion only? I saw a verse about being sprinkled with the blood of Christ earlier. Is sprinkling adequate? Who should administer the baptism? Does the Bible say, specifically? If a guy thought he needed to be baptised, could he just have someone dunk him in the pond and consider it done? Maybe he could do it himself? I don't recall any specifics given on who should do it, and how.
It may just be my imagination, but I seem to be hearing a way-up-yonder Somebody saying "Now, don't you boys make Me have to come down there!"
I hope he is just laughing at some of these posts. I know I am. If God didn't have a really good sense of humor he wouldn't have made some of us so funny.
Ive been keeping along so far and its interesting but runs in circles. I was sitting here reading and "day dreaming" and I see me as a little kid sitting on the sidewalk, elbows on my knees, staring at two churches across the street. Jesus sits beside me and looks at the churches, then looks at me and says "What ya say we go get a soda instead"
"I appeal to you, dear brothers and sisters,[c] by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, to live in harmony with each other. Let there be no divisions in the church. Rather, be of one mind, united in thought and purpose. 11 For some members of Chloe�s household have told me about your quarrels, my dear brothers and sisters. 12 Some of you are saying, �I am a follower of Paul.� Others are saying, �I follow Apollos,� or �I follow Peter,[d]� or �I follow only Christ.�
I believe that immersion baptism is required for entry into Heaven. Aside from the countless examples of belief, then baptism in the new testament, John 3:5 says it all. This was Jesus himself speaking.
" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."
I do not know how much more clear a verse can get, said from the Man himself. There are many verses that state that belief saves, but I look at those verses as part of a recipe. You have to put in ALL the ingredients.
James 2 17- Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith with your works, and I will show you my faith by my works 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--- and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead.
So, not only do I believe that faith and baptism are required, but also continued works. Baptism being one of the works that must be done.
Belief in the new testament is ALWAYS followed by baptism.
Torque, why do you believe immersion is the only way? Is it something written in the Bible or is it just the way it seems to have always been done?
What if total immersion was not achieved? Would even a hand sticking out eliminate someone from the kingdom of heaven? Someone earlier wrote of a terminally ill woman being almost drowned because they couldn't get her under all the way. Is it really an all or nothing deal?
And again, who is qualified to baptize, and who gets to decide?
Ringman, I believe that you are correct in your interpretation of the new testament. What you have to remember is that there are many who call themselves Christians who do not want to believe anything else is required of them but belief. How much easier for them can life be? Nothing is required of them. Nothing is expected of them. All they have to do is believe that Jesus is the Son of God. They, of course, disregard that Satan, the other fallen angels, demons and satan worshipers also believe that. I have had so many in depth discussions about this subject with people who completely ignore verses in the New Testament because they do not suit their view of God that I've almost stopped discussing it at all. Almost. I try my hardest to go by the complete new testament, not cherry picked verses. All you can hope is that one day they will read the book of James and see that the view of faith alone is corrupt and that the "once saved, always saved" mantra simply isn't true. More is required of us than that.
xxclaro, I believe that because the word used in the original texts means immersion. I do not set requirements, nor do I judge technicalities. To me, that is playing semantics. When I was baptized, my hand was on my fathers arm to hold on to him while I was immersed. Part of my hand did not go under. Do I think it counted? Absolutely.
I have never read of a qualification in the new testament for someone to baptize another. The church of Christ I attend allows anyone who is a Christian to baptize another into Christ.
Ringman, I believe that you are correct in your interpretation of the new testament. What you have to remember is that there are many who call themselves Christians who do not want to believe anything else is required of them but belief. How much easier for them can life be? Nothing is required of them. Nothing is expected of them. All they have to do is believe that Jesus is the Son of God. They, of course, disregard that Satan, the other fallen angels, demons and satan worshipers also believe that. I have had so many in depth discussions about this subject with people who completely ignore verses in the New Testament because they do not suit their view of God that I've almost stopped discussing it at all. Almost. I try my hardest to go by the complete new testament, not cherry picked verses. All you can hope is that one day they will read the book of James and see that the view of faith alone is corrupt and that the "once saved, always saved" mantra simply isn't true. More is required of us than that.
Where does grace fit into this. John 3:16 says it all.
I see, the church I was in when I was younger always had the pastor doing it, so I was wondering how others did it.
A question that I heard argued about a few times was multiple baptisms. Some people said they wanted to be baptised again because they didn't have a proper understanding the first time. I had friends who were Mennonites, and they weren't allowed to get married until they were baptised. So naturally, lots of them did it just to get married. Later some of them wanted to be baptised in a different church that they joined because they felt like the first one didn't mean anything. Others said this was wrong, there is only one baptism.
How do you fell about that? If they were to have died after the first baptism, were they saved? And how does repentance of sins factor into all this? I was always taught that repenting of your sins was the real first step to salvation, and baptism came after. Usually that was done during what I believe people call and "alter call" or something like that.
Torque, ill bring up Cornelius as another has. I read up some on him, and seems he was saved while Peter was talking to him. Yet Peter decided to baptize him with water anyhow?
"Even as Peter was saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the message. 45 The Jewish believers[e] who came with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles, too. 46 For they heard them speaking in other tongues[f] and praising God.
Then Peter asked, 47 �Can anyone object to their being baptized, now that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?� 48 So he gave orders for them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Afterward Cornelius asked him to stay with them for several days."
Seems to me, the baptism wasnt really needed. Not sure what to think there.
" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."
And I clearly read this as born of water, out of your mother's womb... and the only way to be born of spirit is death of the physical into our spiritual life. Two very logical realities that everyone goes through without exception. And puts alot of other things Jesus say's into place.
I may be mistaken but I believe there were a couple cases of that happening in the Old Testament? Can't remember names off the top of my head, and I don't remember any instances of it happening in the New Testament.
They were not saved yet. Just as the gifts the apostles had were passed down by those they laid hands on, (gifts of the Holy Spirit) does not mean their household was saved. Hence, why the follow up baptism was commanded. The example was necessary to show the Jews that Jesus had come to save all, not just the Jews. Once the Gentiles were shown to be given the gift of the Holy Spirit, the Jews could not argue against them being baptized into Christ.
I see, the church I was in when I was younger always had the pastor doing it, so I was wondering how others did it.
A question that I heard argued about a few times was multiple baptisms. Some people said they wanted to be baptised again because they didn't have a proper understanding the first time. I had friends who were Mennonites, and they weren't allowed to get married until they were baptised. So naturally, lots of them did it just to get married. Later some of them wanted to be baptised in a different church that they joined because they felt like the first one didn't mean anything. Others said this was wrong, there is only one baptism.
How do you fell about that? If they were to have died after the first baptism, were they saved? And how does repentance of sins factor into all this? I was always taught that repenting of your sins was the real first step to salvation, and baptism came after. Usually that was done during what I believe people call and "alter call" or something like that.
Those are all personal judgement calls and I have no authority to answer them. Im not copping out of your question, I just don't know their personal situations. Hear Believe Repent Baptism Remain faithful
" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."
And I clearly read this as born of water, out of your mother's womb... and the only way to be born of spirit is death of the physical into our spiritual life. Two very logical realities that everyone goes through without exception. And puts alot of other things Jesus say's into place.
Kent
You do realize you are saying that all still born and aborted babies can't go to heaven right? So, I kinda doubt that's what Jesus was saying.
Aside from that, Jesus was talking about being born again, answering Nicodemus' questing about how a man can be born twice from his mother's womb. It was a discussing directly about baptism, not being born naturally. John 3:5 look it up. Being born of the spirit is not death. It is being born of the Holy Spirit.
Where does grace fit into this. John 3:16 says it all.
It appears you don't understand grace. Grace is best described in Ephesians 2:8 in the New World Translation of The Holy Scriptures. It goes something like this:
"By God's undeserved kindness toward you, you have been saved."
Even if we were supposed to climb Mountain Calvary and kneel it would still be God's grace because all have sinned and missed God's perfection. But we don't have to do that. By God's grace. If you continue to read John 3 you will get to
John 3:36,
"'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'�
and the only way to be born of spirit is death of the physical into our spiritual life.
Are you saying one my die as in being buried? That dos not seem to hold up to Apostle Peter's writing.
1 Peter 1:22-23
"Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God."
They were not saved yet. Just as the gifts the apostles had were passed down by those they laid hands on, (gifts of the Holy Spirit) does not mean their household was saved. Hence, why the follow up baptism was commanded. The example was necessary to show the Jews that Jesus had come to save all, not just the Jews. Once the Gentiles were shown to be given the gift of the Holy Spirit, the Jews could not argue against them being baptized into Christ.
You are saying the Holy Spirit came to live inside an unsaved man. Sorry but that's impossible. Don't you understand that you must invite God in, he doesn't just take over. So now God's inside you but you aren't saved until you are dunked in water? Why can't you just get past what you think baptism means and understand that it's being in God and him in you that saves a man. We are baptized into Christ. Don't be so ignorant that all you can see is the religious ceremony of being dunked into water when it says baptized into Christ. It means immersed in Christ. It means being one with him, which is exactly what has happened when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. It is exactly what happened to Cornelius before he was immersed into water.
Can you show me a requirement in the New Testament that says the Holy Spirit can't do that? They believed, but had not yet been saved. It is your assumption that it is a requirement that they be saved before the Holy Spirit, if that is true, you're saying the Holy Spirit can't move you to become saved. And if baptism means immersed in Christ, you'll have to explain to me why every single person who was baptized in the New Testament was dunked in water.
Where does grace fit into this. John 3:16 says it all.
It appears you don't understand grace. Grace is best described in Ephesians 2:8 in the New World Translation of The Holy Scriptures. It goes something like this:
"By God's undeserved kindness toward you, you have been saved."
Even if we were supposed to climb Mountain Calvary and kneel it would still be God's grace because all have sinned and missed God's perfection. But we don't have to do that. By God's grace. If you continue to read John 3 you will get to
John 3:36,
"'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'�
Trust me my friend, I have studied grace and have a good understanding.
I alsh believe in baptism by water and by the Spirit. But I believe in salvation by grace through belief in Christ as my personal Saviour. I also believe I am saved by my faith in Jeasus not by baptism. It is by what is in my heart.
I also believe that it is what is in my heart that causes me to desire to do His works not by obligation.
Baptizo- to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
to overwhelm
Baptisma- immersion, submersion
Baptismos- dipping, washing (of a ceremonial character).
These are the Greek and Hebrew words used in the New Testament when speaking of baptism. So, using these definitions and the examples of every single baptism in the new testament, how can you NOT believe that baptism is physical submersion?
I'm off to bed. I realize that text does not convey tone, so please brothers, know that I love you and have meant no insult. I hope you all have a wonderful Christmas. I won't be back online to continue this discussion (if it's still around) until Sunday night.
Physical immersion is not the only baptism that the New Testament speaks of.
The experience of physical immersion gives the baptized person a physical and intellectual insight into the ultimate meaning of spiritual immersion � which sprinkling and pouring don't even come close to clarifying.
With this in mind, read (and think about) John's baptism of Jesus in the Jordan River and God's immediate baptism of Him in the Holy Spirit.
Then read (and think about) Jesus's baptism (in the Holy Spirit) of the 120 disciples on the Day of Pentecost.
And try to understand the meaning of it all � without looking for something to quibble with.
Meanwhile � Happy Birthday! (You're not getting better � you're just getting older. )
I'm off to bed. I realize that text does not convey tone, so please brothers, know that I love you and have meant no insult. I hope you all have a wonderful Christmas. I won't be back online to continue this discussion (if it's still around) until Sunday night.
I appreciate your attitude brother. I feel the same way. It's fine to discuss these issues as long as we stay in the proper attitude. I must confess that I often get frustrated when someone cannot see what is so clear to me, but it's good for me and a practice in patience.
Merry Christmas to everyone. I hope everyone following this thread still understands that even though Christians may disagree, we still consider each other family. We still love each other and will support each other through life's trials. I love you guys, and I hope you know that. We are family.
Define 'baptize' in the context Jesus was referring.
Matthew 28:19-20
"'Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.'�
Acts 8:26-39
"But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, 'Get up and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.' (This is a desert road.) So he got up and went; and there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship, and he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah. Then the Spirit said to Philip, 'Go up and join this chariot.' Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, 'Do you understand what you are reading?' And he said, 'Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?' And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this:
�'He was led as a sheep to slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He does not open His mouth. �'In humiliation His judgment was taken away; Who will [k]relate His [l]generation? For His life is removed from the earth.'� The eunuch answered Philip and said, 'Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?' Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, 'Look!Water! What prevents me from being baptized?� And Philip said, 'If you believe with all your heart, you may.' And he answered and said, 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.' And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch no longer saw him, but went on his way rejoicing."
Act 10:44-48
"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?' And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days."
" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."
And I clearly read this as born of water, out of your mother's womb... and the only way to be born of spirit is death of the physical into our spiritual life. Two very logical realities that everyone goes through without exception. And puts alot of other things Jesus say's into place.
Kent
You do realize you are saying that all still born and aborted babies can't go to heaven right? So, I kinda doubt that's what Jesus was saying.
Aside from that, Jesus was talking about being born again, answering Nicodemus' questing about how a man can be born twice from his mother's womb. It was a discussing directly about baptism, not being born naturally. John 3:5 look it up. Being born of the spirit is not death. It is being born of the Holy Spirit.
Once you are created, as in zygote, you come out of the womb eventually. Physically alive or not, would have fulfilled the first and the second would have already began if dead. Though I think since he was talking to a live person with no understanding of modern biology, he kept it simple... and I've found reading his words simply is the best way he wanted us the hear him.
I also take what Jesus is reported to have said in the bible differently than what someone else is telling me 'what Jesus meant', even if that someone wrote books of the bible later.
No one has yet addressed the issue of different definitions of 'baptize' in the bible itself and John the baptist's testimony of same.
Jesus could have written volumes if he thought it would help our understanding. Instead he spoke simply and starkly, for a reason... man has written volumes trying to define Jesus's intent through those few words.
I believe, and have stated here before... once created as a zygote, in body and spirit... there can only be one ending and that is spirit only. There are 7 billion physical journeys happening right now, God knows them all.
Whether it was 1 second or 115 years... at the end of the physical life, someone had to clean up the mess, no matter how important you think you are or your words were.
I don't care how people use words for their own sense of salvation, but I will protest when they use it to judge anyone else's.
Physical death separates the spirit for the last stage of existence... or is completed... or reabsorbed... or whatever... it's definitely a birth of spirit only and new understanding.
The word enter is key to this verse and it's intent to me. I feel I can almost understand my spiritual future, that the kingdom may be touching me, right there... but enter? nope, not yet. The Holy Spirit inside me, my guide and communicator, is not being in the kingdom.
Born again is one of the most misused phrases ever... since we were created with body and spirit from the start... folks use it to describe enlightenment, sudden awareness, even attitude adjustment from self destruction. All good things and examples of God's power.
We won't really be born again till the white light comes to gather.
So then mute people can't be saved, right, since we must do the works part. I guess you could say they could use sign language, so that just leaves out mute people with no hands. I guess they could think it in their mind if they couldn't speak and had no hands to sign with. That gets us right back to believing doesn't it.
It gets you back to being argumentative, it seems to me. I didn't write any of God's Word. I quote it here and ask others to show me Scripture to support their positions.
You see I don't understand God. Look how he handled a disobedient man named Akin. He kept something for himself from the city of Jericho. What did God do. He killed thirty-six others who didn't keep anything for themselves. Then he had Joshua bring out Akin's whole family, you know wife, kids, pets and livestock. Then God told him to kill them and then burn them and then bury them under stones. Why kill the first thirty-six people? Why kill his wife? Why kill his kids? There is no way I will take something away from What Jesus says or add something to What He says.
Someone here says Jesus didn't mean wash feet. Then why did He bring it up. His whole life showed service. There is no need to exchange what He says for something we want Him to say.
God says "confess with your mouth." If God wants to save the mute, the mute will confess with his mouth. God says there will be few who are saved and many who are not. Even among them who say, "Lord, Lord."
Again, well done. Glad to be on the same side in this one. Merry Christmas.
I believe the thief on the cross was accurately and specifically mentioned In order to settle the issue.
To me it takes a greater stretch to believe he was somehow previously baptized than that God could just save him and take him to heaven.
We know what we see, hear and feel. God knows hearts and minds.
Reading some of these squibbles it would appear that some feel God needs us not that He wants us. It's not rocket science, it is serious but if you have the blood of Jesus covering your sins nothing else matters! Jesus and Jesus alone! To add anything else is to trample on His blood. I'm no "religious" expert but I'm secure in that belief!
The thief on the cross died under the old covenant which was still in effect at the time.
" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."
And I clearly read this as born of water, out of your mother's womb... and the only way to be born of spirit is death of the physical into our spiritual life. Two very logical realities that everyone goes through without exception. And puts alot of other things Jesus say's into place.
Kent
That is quite a unique interpretation. Good luck with that.
. I also believe I am saved by my faith in Jeasus not by baptism. It is by what is in my heart.
Check this out!
1 Peter 1:20-21
"the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you"
" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."
And I clearly read this as born of water, out of your mother's womb... and the only way to be born of spirit is death of the physical into our spiritual life. Two very logical realities that everyone goes through without exception. And puts alot of other things Jesus say's into place.
Kent
That is quite a unique interpretation. Good luck with that.
There's 25 words in that quote and none were baptize... and there's no reason to stretch them to fit.
With this in mind, read (and think about) John's baptism of Jesus in the Jordan River and God's immediate baptism of Him in the Holy Spirit.
Then read (and think about) Jesus's baptism (in the Holy Spirit) of the 120 disciples on the Day of Pentecost.
And try to understand the meaning of it all � without looking for something to quibble with.
I check the stories you are referencing. Baptism is not mentioned in any of them.
Your Bible must not have Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:26, and John 1:33 in it.
In my Bibles, all five of these passages mention baptism in water (what else would be flowing copiously in the River Jordan at that time?).
In ordinary English, baptize refers directly to the act and fact of baptism, whatever the medium may be � physical or spiritual. The verb refers directly to the noun and merges its meaning integrally into it own meaning.
"Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."
And I clearly read this as born of water, out of your mother's womb... and the only way to be born of spirit is death of the physical into our spiritual life. Two very logical realities that everyone goes through without exception. And puts alot of other things Jesus say's into place.
That is quite a unique interpretation. Good luck with that.
There's 25 words in that quote and none were baptize... and there's no reason to stretch them to fit.
The word water appears 396 times in the Bible, and in my studies of them, not one clearly refers to amniotic "water," even with a lot more stretching than I'm willing to exert.
I haven't read much of this thread so if this question has already been asked, I missed it.
Why was Jesus baptized?
"to fulfill all righteousness"
To emphasize that everyone needs to be baptized.
Baptism in water shows what it's be like to be baptized (immersed) in anything else or Anyone Else � suffering, death, the Holy Spirit, fellowship, the ekklesia �
"...whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."
God intrudes. The life of Jesus is bracketed by two impossibilities: a virgin's womb and an empty tomb. Jesus entered our world through a door marked "No Entrance" and left through a door marked "No Exit."
That first Christmas, there was no room for Him in the inn. The world never wants to make room for Christ at Christmas and in everyday life. Man killed Him and sealed the tomb with a huge stone to shut Him out of our lives once and for all. But God removed the stone to prove Jesus will not be shut up or shut out of His plans.
It would be great if God could actually talk to people today, let them know what it is he wants, or help them understand things more clearly. Unfortunately that's no longer possible and lots of people who truly thought they were following what they thought was Gods word are doomed to burn for all eternity. It really is a shame, but I guess its what we have.
One immediate benefit of accepting Jesus as Lord and the Holy Spirit as Guide and Comforter is our ability to see the hand of God and distinguish it from the hand of man.
We can apply this new found ability to the bible's contents and - more importantly - to others' interpretation of Scripture. Once we have seen, and overcome, this tendency within our own selves, we can easily spot it when it comes from an outside source.
I'm anxious to see who among this crowd will use Scripture to refute the statements I'm about to make.
God is everything, or He is nothing.
Jesus is fully God, or He is not.
God's saving Grace is extended to every human being or it is not extended to every human being.
When I answer all these statements in the affirmative, I have as clear a picture of God as the human mind can comprehend.
When I hear statements made about the manner in which this Entity operates, I ask myself how it fits into this "picture".
Some attributes people add to God seem likely while others seem unlikely. Many, but not all, of the unlikely ones have man's fingerprints all over them.
The idea of God making water baptism an essential element in the salvation of a human being is covered in man's fingerprints. Most of those prints probably originated in Rome, but one real clear set match a man named Campbell, the originator of the Church of Christ in the USA.
I see nothing wrong in believing Campbell's idea.
I see plenty wrong in asserting it in a forum frequented by non- Christians.
It would be great if God could actually talk to people today, let them know what it is he wants, or help them understand things more clearly. Unfortunately that's no longer possible and lots of people who truly thought they were following what they thought was Gods word are doomed to burn for all eternity. It really is a shame, but I guess its what we have.
For thousands of years, He has told us what He's like, what He's going to do, and what He expects of us.
But we have to wait upon Him on His terms, not wait for Him to talk to us on our terms.
Three surmountable problems complicate the matter �
� crossing the abyss between the times and the abyss between cultures and languages
� the incompetence, the irresponsibility, and ultimately the betrayal of those who're supposed to be parting the waters for us
� our fond, insistent preference for going our own way rather than His
He's not out to persuade anybody or to force His way onto anybody, but He readily and clearly answers � and assists � any honest desire to do His will.
It would be great if God could actually talk to people today, let them know what it is he wants, or help them understand things more clearly. Unfortunately that's no longer possible and lots of people who truly thought they were following what they thought was Gods word are doomed to burn for all eternity. It really is a shame, but I guess its what we have.
St. Peter addressed that problem directly.
I suggest you tell God your problem and tell him you are going to examine Peter's writings for help.
You can read Peter's entire contribution to the bible in just a few minutes. Look for something about "a light in a dark place".
I'm not giving you MY interpretation of it................. because..............
"Blessed is he who condemneth not that which he alloweth".
It would be great if God could actually talk to people today, let them know what it is he wants, or help them understand things more clearly. Unfortunately that's no longer possible and lots of people who truly thought they were following what they thought was Gods word are doomed to burn for all eternity. It really is a shame, but I guess its what we have.
St. Peter addressed that problem directly.
I suggest you tell God your problem and tell him you are going to examine Peter's writings for help.
You can read Peter's entire contribution to the bible in just a few minutes. Look for something about "a light in a dark place".
I'm not giving you MY interpretation of it................. because..............
"Blessed is he who condemneth not that which he alloweth".
It would be great if God could actually talk to people today, let them know what it is he wants, or help them understand things more clearly. Unfortunately that's no longer possible and lots of people who truly thought they were following what they thought was Gods word are doomed to burn for all eternity. It really is a shame, but I guess its what we have.
It doesn't work like that. God already knows his own and sees to it that they understand his will. It's not actually some kind of riddle to be figured out so that only smart folks can do it. If your heart is right, God will move heaven and earth to see to it you know his will to the extent you need to. Those who claim they are confused are mainly just showing ill will, and are more in need of a change of heart than more understanding.
Where does grace fit into this. John 3:16 says it all.
It appears you don't understand grace. Grace is best described in Ephesians 2:8 in the New World Translation of The Holy Scriptures. It goes something like this:
"By God's undeserved kindness toward you, you have been saved."
Even if we were supposed to climb Mountain Calvary and kneel it would still be God's grace because all have sinned and missed God's perfection. But we don't have to do that. By God's grace. If you continue to read John 3 you will get to
John 3:36,
"'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'�
Trust me my friend, I have studied grace and have a good understanding.
I alsh believe in baptism by water and by the Spirit. But I believe in salvation by grace through belief in Christ as my personal Saviour. I also believe I am saved by my faith in Jeasus not by baptism. It is by what is in my heart.
I also believe that it is what is in my heart that causes me to desire to do His works not by obligation.
isn't the amniotic fluid mostly water? So a baby is immersed even before it is born. Thus a man could be born of water by immersion in the amniotic fluid then the spirit by accepting Jesus's gift of redemption. No church folks need dip you again, you are born dipped in water.
Where does grace fit into this. John 3:16 says it all.
It appears you don't understand grace. Grace is best described in Ephesians 2:8 in the New World Translation of The Holy Scriptures. It goes something like this:
"By God's undeserved kindness toward you, you have been saved."
Even if we were supposed to climb Mountain Calvary and kneel it would still be God's grace because all have sinned and missed God's perfection. But we don't have to do that. By God's grace. If you continue to read John 3 you will get to
John 3:36,
"'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'�
Trust me my friend, I have studied grace and have a good understanding.
I alsh believe in baptism by water and by the Spirit. But I believe in salvation by grace through belief in Christ as my personal Saviour. I also believe I am saved by my faith in Jeasus not by baptism. It is by what is in my heart.
I also believe that it is what is in my heart that causes me to desire to do His works not by obligation.
isn't the amniotic fluid mostly water? So a baby is immersed even before it is born. Thus a man could be born of water by immersion in the amniotic fluid then the spirit by accepting Jesus's gift of redemption. No church folks need dip you again, you are born dipped in water.
Someone has led you to that interpretation, but it wasn't the Holy Spirit, I'll wager.
It would be great if God could actually talk to people today, let them know what it is he wants, or help them understand things more clearly. Unfortunately that's no longer possible and lots of people who truly thought they were following what they thought was Gods word are doomed to burn for all eternity. It really is a shame, but I guess its what we have.
It doesn't work like that. God already knows his own and sees to it that they understand his will. It's not actually some kind of riddle to be figured out so that only smart folks can do it. If your heart is right, God will move heaven and earth to see to it you know his will to the extent you need to. Those who claim they are confused are mainly just showing ill will, and are more in need of a change of heart than more understanding.
And here is where we run into problems, I think. In this very thread we have numerous posters who have studied the Bible quite extensively and are comfortable and secure that they understand it and are saved. I know people, personally, who have done the same, and feel the same way. And yet some of these people, studying the same book and following the same God, cannot agree on the answer to the most fundamental and basic question-what is required to enter the kingdom of heaven?
I'm pretty sure these same people have asked for guidance and truth, and yet the differences remain. The easy out is to say that whoever doesn't see it my way is lacking in understanding and have ill will. Of course, they can turn around and say the same about us, and neither can prove his point.
All this may not be a big issue to those who already believe they know the answers and are secure in their beliefs. To the seeker who is trying to find the truth, its turns into a jumbled mess that is may well cause them to simply look elsewhere.
Are you God? Only God is perfect and infallible? Your interpretation of the word is no more correct than mine. Satan loves religion. It is a perfect tool to use by one man to condemn and persecute another. As to baptism water is water, the hand of a man in baptism is insignificant compared to the murder of Gods son in the cross. Do you remember who orchestrated his murder? Why organized religion of course because he preached a different gospel than those in religious power. Take care that you do not follow their path.
".......may well cause them to simply look elsewhere."
Funny you should say that.
Bro. Lawrence was a monk who lived several centuries ago. Despite the fact that his job consisted of washing the pots and pans in the place where he lived, he was thought to have a very special communion with God and pilgrims came from far away to seek his counsel.
One especially important pilgrim approached him one day with the essential question; "How may I find God?"
Without looking up from his scrubbing, Bro Lawrence replied:
"He is within you, look not for him elsewhere".
Some of the other monks assembled a small book about him;
"Practice of the presence of God" is the title, I think.
Are you God? Only God is perfect and infallible? Your interpretation of the word is no more correct than mine. Satan loves religion. It is a perfect tool to use by one man to condemn and persecute another. As to baptism water is water, the hand of a man in baptism is insignificant compared to the murder of Gods son in the cross. Do you remember who orchestrated his murder? Why organized religion of course because he preached a different gospel than those in religious power. Take care that you do not follow their path.
Is it so radical to suggest that one with a right heart will be led to understand what is necessary to be saved? Do you suspect God is unable to secure the salvation of his own?
And here is where we run into problems, I think. In this very thread we have numerous posters who have studied the Bible quite extensively and are comfortable and secure that they understand it and are saved. I know people, personally, who have done the same, and feel the same way. And yet some of these people, studying the same book and following the same God, cannot agree on the answer to the most fundamental and basic question-what is required to enter the kingdom of heaven?
I'm pretty sure these same people have asked for guidance and truth, and yet the differences remain. The easy out is to say that whoever doesn't see it my way is lacking in understanding and have ill will. Of course, they can turn around and say the same about us, and neither can prove his point.
All this may not be a big issue to those who already believe they know the answers and are secure in their beliefs. To the seeker who is trying to find the truth, its turns into a jumbled mess that is may well cause them to simply look elsewhere.
No doubt the new Pope has spent a little time studying the Bible and seeking the Truth.
Maybe more than most posting here.
But dare �He� disagree with the admonitions of TRH?
The Pope has made very clear that through good deeds, not belief in Christ we will ALL be redeemed. May 23, 2013 �Just do good, and we�ll find a meeting point,� said the Pontiff. �The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!�
Father James Martin: �Pope Francis is saying, more clearly than ever before, that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for everyone. That�s always been a Christian belief. You can find St. Paul saying in the First Letter to Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a �ransom for all.� But rarely do you hear it said by Catholics so forcefully, and with such evident joy. And in this era of religious controversies, it�s a timely reminder that God cannot be confined to our narrow categories.�
Are you God? Only God is perfect and infallible? Your interpretation of the word is no more correct than mine. Satan loves religion. It is a perfect tool to use by one man to condemn and persecute another. As to baptism water is water, the hand of a man in baptism is insignificant compared to the murder of Gods son in the cross. Do you remember who orchestrated his murder? Why organized religion of course because he preached a different gospel than those in religious power. Take care that you do not follow their path.
Is it so radical to suggest that one with a right heart will be led to understand what is necessary to be saved? Do you suspect God is unable to secure the salvation of his own?
We both agree Yahweh has no need of mans intervention. The sacrifice of his son was enough.
Are you God? Only God is perfect and infallible? Your interpretation of the word is no more correct than mine. Satan loves religion. It is a perfect tool to use by one man to condemn and persecute another. As to baptism water is water, the hand of a man in baptism is insignificant compared to the murder of Gods son in the cross. Do you remember who orchestrated his murder? Why organized religion of course because he preached a different gospel than those in religious power. Take care that you do not follow their path.
Is it so radical to suggest that one with a right heart will be led to understand what is necessary to be saved? Do you suspect God is unable to secure the salvation of his own?
I wouldn't have thought so, but apparently many disagree. We have seen many here who, it seems to me, have a right heart being told that what they have been led to understand is wrong. Not only a little wrong, mind you, but so wrong that their beliefs would bar them from heaven. Not sure how to reconcile that with a god who we are also told wants everyone to be saved, and none lost.
John was the voice crying out in the desert to announce his coming.
Matthew 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
and then Jesus.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
We have seen many here who, it seems to me, have a right heart being told that what they have been led to understand is wrong. Not only a little wrong, mind you, but so wrong that their beliefs would bar them from heaven.
Darn shame when it has come to the point where people are having to leave church and/or distance themselves from self professed 'Christians' in order to experience God and His salvation, and have a personal relationship with Him.
John was the voice crying out in the desert to announce his coming.
Matthew 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
In the context of the whole of the Gospel, the meaning of this is clear, i.e., that while John's baptism was mere symbol of one to come, that of Jesus possesses divine power. But water is still the means through which the effect of said power is received
� what is required to enter the kingdom of heaven? �
Jesus tells us all that very clearly.
Consult a red-letter New Testament (one with with the words of Jesus printed in red).
Read the red � over and over � nonstop. Take notes. Let His words soak into your understanding.
Note especially those passages where He specifies what's required to be loved by God, to enter into the Kingdom, etc.
Or read my Who Shall Enter the Kingdom of Heaven?, which says what He says and explains it all in plain English.
Even a literate cave man can understand it, if he's willing to listen to Jesus instead of trying to figure it all out for himself or looking to anybody other than Jesus.
With the intimate involvement of the Holy Spirit (not under your own steam alone), � obey � repent � believe � love � forgive in the ways that He means these, not as humans define and revise 'em.
But you have to be willing � not hesitant, resistant, or reluctant.
It's reinforced the message that God assures us that if we've trusted Jesus as our Savior, He has given us eternal life...and we can have a personal relationship with Him exclusive of anyone else...and He promises to never leave or forsake us.
John 5:24 Truly,truly I say to you. He who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life.
Also read Matthew 20:1-16 Consider instead of wages, salvation. Pay close attention to verse 15 "Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own?" Commentary from Charles Stanley: "The Lord can and does distribute His gifts and His goodness as He wills. By definition, grace cannot be earned or deserved, so God is completely free to bestow His favor however He chooses.
John the Baptist himself said Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit instead of water.
How do you know what Jesus meant when he used the word baptize?
Kent
"Instead" of water? John said no such thing. As a matter of fact, the apostle John said that Jesus baptized more disciples than John the Baptist.
John 4:1-2 1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
Consider what the New Testament teaches about the purpose of water baptism, whether before Pentecost (Acts 2) or after . . .
It is all very simple if one has an open mind . . .
What I have discovered through diligent Bible study (aka the Bereans Acts 17:10-11) is that water baptism, before and after Pentecost, as described in the New Testament, has always been "for the remission of sins."
It is sin that separates us from God. It is Christ's blood that washes away that sin (Mt 26:28). . . it is through water baptism we put off that sin and rise to walk as a new creature (Rom 6:4)
Consider the following:
John the Baptist and Jesus (before Pentecost)-
Matthew 3 1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: . . .
Mark 1 4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
John 4 1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
So all the disbelievers, ask yourself, was water baptism, before Pentecost (Acts 2) "for the remission of sins?"
After Pentecost -
Acts 2 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
The "faith only" argument uses the word "accept" the free gift of salvation. The New Testament does not use that word "accept." Instead it refers to "Receiving the word" the acting on that word in obedience.
So, how do we go about calling on the name of the Lord? Here's one way... Ro 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
I am 7.5 hours ahead of U.S. Eastern time here in Spain, so I am way behind on reviewing these interesting comments in this thread and responding with my own take. For example, having read Rock's comments in this thread I believe a reasonable man could perceive he is a "faith only" advocate (ie. Calvinist, ie. Baptist, etc) . . . but from this passage he quotes there are no less than two key elements of man's requirement to "call on the name of the Lord" and be saved . . . "confession and Belief." So right off the bat, we see "Faith Only" is a false doctrine.
One other observation, Jesus said in John 14:6 - "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the father but by me." Yet Rock seems to be saying in the quote above there is more than one way . . . "ie. "Here is a way . . .") Then again, maybe I am reading too much into his quote.
I agree 100% that all Christians need to get baptized but I do not agree with it being a requirement for salvation. . . .
So, R. H. - just to keep the dialog on a simple and understandable plane, and to establish a base of agreement before proceeding further, . . . do the Scriptures teach that repentance is a "requirement for salvation."
Luke 3:16 �John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:�
Do you see the word.... but...
The other stuff you referenced doesn't have any direct relevance to my context.
John baptized one way... Jesus baptizes another...
Day after Christmas . . . 3:40 pm in Rota Spain. Connecting at the local restaurant Wi-Fi and having a nice afternoon lunch with my wife consisting of fried peppers, fried shark in adobo, fried cuttle fish, olives in oil, spanish bread (of course) and a couple of cold Cruz Campos!
Give us and example from the Book of Acts where someone was saved without water baptism, please. It would make it easier for us Bible thumpers. We could at least leave that one thing behind.
� Makes more common sense than anything our resident Bible experts are saying. They seem to be in over their heads.
Why do I get the feeling that I'm whispering into a hurricane?
And that certainly works both ways.
Okay.
Time for this ol' blowhard to move along, I guess.
'Bye!
What is frustrating to me, is posting several times what the Pope has said that disagrees with what has been said by some on this thread.
I�m not Catholic, but Pope Francis has turned not just the Catholic world but much of Christianity upside down. He has declared that everyone � including atheists � are redeemed through Jesus.
And some on here act like it never happened.
No problem for some Christians who believe as I do that all good people should receive just reward.
But it certainly does contradict what some on here have said they believe based on their own understanding of the Bible.
They seem to be without answer.
I believe that is because they have read the same scripture as the Pontiff and know in their hearts that he is closer to the true meaning of Christ than their own narrow interpretations.
Just another interesting thought... From the Jesus era till now. More souls are going into the kingdom unbaptized than baptized. Add in the Jews from the old law, even if you exclude the Jews in the new law. Then the baptized minority fraction really becomes pronounced.
Wonder if they have separate condo complexes... and who has to sit at the back of the bus...
[quote=BOWSINGER] � Makes more common sense than anything our resident Bible experts are saying. They seem to be in over their heads.
Why do I get the feeling that I'm whispering into a hurricane?
And that certainly works both ways.
Okay.
Time for this ol' blowhard to move along, I guess.
'Bye!
Quote
What is frustrating to me, is posting several times what the Pope has said that disagrees with what has been said by some on this thread.
I�m not Catholic, but Pope Francis has turned not just the Catholic world but much of Christianity upside down. He has declared that everyone � including atheists � are redeemed through Jesus.
And some on here act like it never happened.
No problem for some Christians who believe as I do that all good people should receive just reward.
But it certainly does contradict what some on here have said they believe based on their own understanding of the Bible.
They seem to be without answer.
I believe that is because they have read the same scripture as the Pontiff and know in their hearts that he is closer to the true meaning of Christ than their own narrow interpretations.
I don't follow or care what ANY Pope says. Just my .02
Layed over 3 days in Rota once when one of the Air Forces finest broke down! They kept us on a pretty tight leash though...
Leave it to men to mess up the best thing we've ever been offered...God's gift of salvation, and the opportunity to walk through life with Him. Leave it to men to muck it up, and make it much more complicated than it really is. And leave it to men to make it dependent upon something that it isn't. Lots of modern day Pharisees out there...!
I should be out deer hunting but 12 hours of granddaughter wore me out yesterday, I'll go out this afternoon.
It happens to the best of us.
I went to work this morning, just to get a break.
Well, I didn't go hunting, as my daughter, who is a teacher, was wore out from a week of 24hr Mia including the busy holiday... Dad, could you please take her for a couple days, we need a rest...
When they were leaving they said, 'we're going now'... do you hear me?... Mia looks up and says 'bye' while waving...
Leave it to men to mess up the best thing we've ever been offered...God's gift of salvation, and the opportunity to walk through life with Him. Leave it to men to muck it up, and make it much more complicated than it really is. And leave it to men to make it dependent upon something that it isn't. Lots of modern day Pharisees out there...!
Some folks just have to feel "special". A VERY small minority of Protestant denominations hold baptism as being essential to salvation, yet on this forum, they try to ram their views thru.
Leave it to men to mess up the best thing we've ever been offered...God's gift of salvation, and the opportunity to walk through life with Him. Leave it to men to muck it up, and make it much more complicated than it really is. And leave it to men to make it dependent upon something that it isn't. Lots of modern day Pharisees out there...!
Now, let's open up a real important subject, Communion.
Must be Kosher wine only and the bread must be French bread. It must be taken while balancing on one knee with the left eye shut. If it is not taken this way at noon each day or it does not count and you are doomed the hell.
About foot washing, must be done exactly as Jesus did it. Artesian well water at 52 degrees F, ten drops of Dawn dish soap and dried with a blue micro-fiber cloth.
Just another interesting thought... From the Jesus era till now. More souls are going into the kingdom unbaptized than baptized. Add in the Jews from the old law, even if you exclude the Jews in the new law. Then the baptized minority fraction really becomes pronounced.
How would you know? Remember a voice from heaven told Jesus while He was hardly out of the baptism water? "This is my beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased."
If baptism is not important why did the Father wait until after Jesus' baptism to proclaim His pleasure? Is the Father well pleased with those of us to argue against something Jesus implored His apostles to teach?
Know what? your response to my comments on, who are in the kingdom unbaptized and that outnumber drastically the baptized, makes no sense... like usual.
Where does grace fit into this. John 3:16 says it all.
It appears you don't understand grace. Grace is best described in Ephesians 2:8 in the New World Translation of The Holy Scriptures. It goes something like this:
"By God's undeserved kindness toward you, you have been saved."
Even if we were supposed to climb Mountain Calvary and kneel it would still be God's grace because all have sinned and missed God's perfection. But we don't have to do that. By God's grace. If you continue to read John 3 you will get to
John 3:36,
"'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'�
Know what? your response to my comments on, who are in the kingdom unbaptized and that outnumber drastically the baptized, makes no sense... like usual.
How do you know more are going into the Kingdom of God unbaptized than baptized?
Know what? your response to my comments on, who are in the kingdom unbaptized and that outnumber drastically the baptized, makes no sense... like usual.
How do you know more are going into the Kingdom of God unbaptized than baptized?
How do we know anyone made it baptized and foot washed or not? Did god sent you a score card the rest of us don't get to see?
Where does grace fit into this. John 3:16 says it all.
It appears you don't understand grace. Grace is best described in Ephesians 2:8 in the New World Translation of The Holy Scriptures. It goes something like this:
"By God's undeserved kindness toward you, you have been saved."
Even if we were supposed to climb Mountain Calvary and kneel it would still be God's grace because all have sinned and missed God's perfection. But we don't have to do that. By God's grace. If you continue to read John 3 you will get to
John 3:36,
"'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.'�
Perhaps Wayne Grudem's definition: God's goodness toward those who deserve only punishment.
Just wanted to bring it to your attention that you were, likely unintentionally, giving merit to a 'translation' or the Bible that includes some rather troubling theology, namely, denying the eternal deity of Jesus.
Know what? your response to my comments on, who are in the kingdom unbaptized and that outnumber drastically the baptized, makes no sense... like usual.
How do you know more are going into the Kingdom of God unbaptized than baptized?
Life is math... from Jesus till now, many more souls have left their worldly body before the age of accountability (children), not counting fetuses that weren't carried to term no matter the reason. Though I believe they have a place with God also... compared to those water baptized as christians.
I guess some believe it's only old law Jews, all of the worlds innocent souls and themselves that believe in water baptism only, excluding those that were dunked so they could to play on the member softball team.
I wish these bigots would have their salvation that they want and not intrude on everyone else's... but that'd be cruel to the jews and innocents.
Ringman, do you still hold your hands up when you pray or do you go to your closet as you are told to do in Matthew 6:6 ??
Four preachers stood talking about this 'n' that, and the conversation rambled onto the matter of what was the proper position to pray in.
"We call our kneecaps 'prayer bones,'" one said, "because on your knees is the only proper position to pray in."
"The Bible speaks often," another said, "of falling on one's face as a gesture of utter humility. I can't imagine a more appropriate position for prayer."
"He's our Father," the third said, "and we're His children. Surely, nothing would please Him more than if we raised our hands and faces up to Him like children looking up to a loving father."
The fourth said nothing until one of the other three asked him what he had to say about the subject.
"Well, I've never thought all that much about it � but looking back, I think that I've done my best praying when I was hanging upside-down from a windmill."
Know what? your response to my comments on, who are in the kingdom unbaptized and that outnumber drastically the baptized, makes no sense... like usual.
Kent
Kent, even though a serious debater is not usually effective with the use of callous responses such as what you leveled at Ring . . . let me give it a shot, if you are serious. I percieve your argument about there being more unbaptised souls in heaven than baptized assumes all the Jews from Abraham to Christ are saved. That in itself is a stretch. I don't know a single brother in Christ who believes that all baptized believers are going to be saved. On the other hand, I have met many "faith only" advocates who believe a doctrine of "once saved, always saved," without being baptized.
Which position is the extreme?
A whole generation of Jews were lost in the 40 years of wandering in the desert. The reason the Jews had been in captivity for 400 years prior to that was because of disobedience. The entire Old Testament number of faithful Jews (before Jesus) listed in Hebrews 11 is quite small. Go back before Abraham and look at the world's population in the days of Noah.
Genesis 6:5 - 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Continuous evil. Such has been the nature of mankind from the beginning. For this reason Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
There were a plurality of "baptisms" associated with the Mosaic dispensation (Heb 6:2) The final "old Testament" baptism was the baptism of John, for the remission of sins. (Mk 1:4-5)
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
That seems to be a majority of the Jews being baptized for the remission of sins. On the other hand, those that refused to repent and be baptized were said to "reject the counsel of God." Luke 7:29-30
29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
So Kent, let me ask you about the command of God to be baptised (Acts 10:48) for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) so that you might be save (Mark 16:15-16).
Why do you deny Jesus's baptism with the Holy ghost?
Kent
Jesus didn't discontinue baptism, but what he accomplished on the cross gave it divine power for the remission of sins. That's what John meant by baptism with the Holy Ghost. In other words, those baptized before Christ accomplished our redemption didn't receive the spiritual benefit of it till Jesus had accomplished what he was born to accomplish.
First of all, as far a Ringman, I give everyone a couple shots on me and he's had his long before. I understand his motivation for posting here and it's not to bring others to Christ.
Second is I never said 'all' to either preChrist jews or those baptize in water, even clarified that some get water baptized to become a member of church and it's social activities.
The obvious point is even if it was water baptize only, it's not the only way to enter the kingdom. And that water baptized souls are the minority in history and current salvation.
John the baptist himself say's there's more than one type of baptism and one more powerful than his...
Why do you deny Jesus's baptism with the Holy ghost?
Kent
Jesus didn't discontinue baptism, but what he accomplished on the cross gave it divine power for the remission of sins. That's what John meant by baptism with the Holy Ghost. In other words, those baptized before Christ accomplished our redemption didn't receive the spiritual benefit of it till Jesus had accomplished what he was born to accomplish.
Why do you deny Jesus's baptism with the Holy ghost?
Jesus didn't discontinue baptism, but what he accomplished on the cross gave it divine power for the remission of sins. That's what John meant by baptism with the Holy Ghost.
� Acts 2:1-4 (KJV) "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
All this occurred in Jerusalem about AD 28 as we now count years (Mary gave birth to Jesus not in AD 1 but between 6 and 4 BC). The New Testament records four other episodes of the same gift of power from on high � the approximate dates below are estimated, based on from 5 BC as the year of the Savior�s birth, as New Testament history suggests � � Samaria AD 29 (Acts 8:14�19) � Damascus, AD 30 (Acts 9:17, 1 Corinthians 14:18) � Caesarea, AD 31 (Acts 1:44�48, 11:8�9, 15-18) � Ephesus, AD 40 (Acts 19:1-7, Ephesians 1:13�14)
� commonly referred-to nowadays as "the Baptism in the Holy Spirit" � as it has continued to occur from then until now � and will continue � which happened to me Thanksgiving Eve, 1968, in our house on Finley Point, on Flathead Lake, near Polson, Montana.
As someone else has so sagely said, you're entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts.
Why do you deny Jesus's baptism with the Holy ghost?
Jesus didn't discontinue baptism, but what he accomplished on the cross gave it divine power for the remission of sins. That's what John meant by baptism with the Holy Ghost.
� Acts 2:1-4 (KJV) "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
All this occurred in Jerusalem about AD 28 as we now count years (Mary gave birth to Jesus not in AD 1 but between 6 and 4 BC). The New Testament records four other episodes of the same gift of power from on high � the approximate dates below are estimated, based on from 5 BC as the year of the Savior�s birth, as New Testament history suggests � � Samaria AD 29 (Acts 8:14�19) � Damascus, AD 30 (Acts 9:17, 1 Corinthians 14:18) � Caesarea, AD 31 (Acts 1:44�48, 11:8�9, 15-18) � Ephesus, AD 40 (Acts 19:1-7, Ephesians 1:13�14)
� commonly referred-to nowadays as "the Baptism in the Holy Spirit � as it has continued to occur from then until now � and will continue � which happened to me Thanksgiving Eve, 1968, in our house on Finley Point, on Flathead Lake, near Polson, Montana.
As someone else has so sagely said, you're entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts.
You're blurring terms.
PS What degree of authoritative weight do you ascribe to "what things have come to be referred to?"
So please explicate 'em � separately, carefully, clearly, slowly, so that a senile ol' Bible scholar can understand their new meanings.
(Folks with fresh, facile new brains should be patient with us ancients who still stagger along with the old model.)
There is no distinction between the baptism with the Holy Ghost and the baptism with water. Once Christ accomplished his purpose, baptism became baptism with the Holy Ghost (i.e., it was elevated to that). Prior to that, baptism was in anticipation of Jesus accomplishing man's redemption. The matter of baptism remained water.
Since Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians (4:5) there is but one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, first mentioned by John the Baptist, is but one thing, promised to but one special group of people, for one purpose, and then that promise was fulfilled.
First of all it was prophesied to originate with Jesus along with a baptism of fire. The baptism (immersion) in the Holy Spirit (Comforter) was promised specifically to the apostles of Christ in the upper room, prior to the Lord's last Passover feast. (John 16)
Jesus told his Apostles to wait for it in Jerusalem where they would be endued with power from on high.(Luke 24:49)
Peter and the other apostles were together in Jerusalem when the Holy Spirit fell on them (Acts 2,) as promised by John the Baptist and Jesus, and they began to preach the first Gospel sermon to the multitude in Jerusalem, gathered from all over the world. They spoke in languages (tongues) understood by all nationalities present. This was a fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel.
This outpouring of the Holy Spirit directly from heaven would not be repeated again until it occurred in the household of Cornelius, the Roman Centurion. However, this outpouring of the Spirit directly from heaven (and not through the laying on of the apostles hands Acts 8:14-18) was for an entirely different purpose.
While the outpouring of the Spirit on the apostles gave them certain Spiritual gifts that no other person possessed (such as the ability to pass on miraculous Spiritual gifts through the laying on of their hands, raising the dead, healing the sick, lame and blind, etc) this is the definition of being baptized with the Holy Spirit . . . it was the "power" promised only to the Apostles. Even Peter recognized the outpouring on Cornelius and his household was a "like" gift, in the manner it was delivered, directly from heaven, without the laying on of Peter's hands, but it was not the "same" gift (apostolic power) that was received by only the Apostles on Pentecost.
There is no distinction between the baptism with the Holy Ghost and the baptism with water.
Then how did I blur terms? Which terms?
What (actually Who) came down from Heaven and enveloped Jesus after John had already baptized Him in water? Wasn't more water.
What (actually Who) came upon the 120 that extra-special Day of Pentecost in Jerusalem? Wasn't water.
What (actually Who) came upon those new believers in the later Acts passages that I cited? Wasn't water.
What (actually Who) came upon me that night on Finley Point? Wasn't water.
The New Testament words for baptism refer only to the act of immersion. The contexts of the several relevant passages allude to or refer to the enveloping media of the immersions. Jesus spoke of several more baptisms to come � some yet to come upon Him later, Who'd already been baptized in water � not more water in any of His coming baptisms.
There is no distinction between the baptism with the Holy Ghost and the baptism with water.
Then how did I blur terms? Which terms?
What (actually Who) came down from Heaven and enveloped Jesus after John had baptized him in water? Wasn't more water.
What (actually Who) came upon the 120 that extra-special Day of Pentecost in Jerusalem? Wasn't water.
What (actually Who) came upon those new believers in the later Acts passages that I cited? Wasn't water.
What (actually Who) came upon me that night on Finley Point? Wasn't water.
The New Testament words for baptism refer only to the act of immersion. The contexts of the several relevant passages allude to or refer to the enveloping media of the immersion. Jesus spoke of several more baptisms to come � some yet to come upon Him later, Who'd already been baptized in water � not more water in any of His coming baptisms.
Ken, it seems you are creating the impression that there are several varieties of baptism, when what scripture refers to are the various charisms associated with the one baptism.
� commonly referred-to nowadays as "the Baptism in the Holy Spirit � as it has continued to occur from then until now � and will continue � which happened to me Thanksgiving Eve, 1968, in our house on Finley Point, on Flathead Lake, near Polson, Montana.
That baptism is still open today for anyone who asks. I would not willingly be without it.
First of all, as far a Ringman, I give everyone a couple shots on me and he's had his long before. I understand his motivation for posting here and it's not to bring others to Christ.
1 Corinthians 4:5
"Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men�s hearts; and then each man�s praise will come to him from God."
My motive here is to bring people to God's Word for themselves.
1 John 2:27
"As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him."
When I first became a believer I spent five hours per day reading Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John for three months. Once I sorta had a handle on Who and What Jesus is I went to the rest of the New Testament. I purchased lots of commentaries and dictionaries and other study guides. What did I discover? There was no more unity in them than there is here. I either gave them away or used them to start fires in our wood burning stove.
With all that study it took ten years before I accepted What Jesus says at the end of both Matthew and Mark. I see several here are still rejecting Jesus' Words just as I did. To them I suggest they take Ken's advise and read the red letters. But before than they do they should read his Who Will Enter the Kingdom of God.
� commonly referred-to nowadays as "the Baptism in the Holy Spirit � as it has continued to occur from then until now � and will continue � which happened to me Thanksgiving Eve, 1968, in our house on Finley Point, on Flathead Lake, near Polson, Montana.
That baptism is still open today for anyone who asks. I would not willingly be without it.
Reception of the gifts of the Holy Ghost are euphemistically referred to as baptism of the Holy Ghost, but there is actually only one sacrament of baptism instituted by Christ necessary for salvation, that using water. The gifts of the Holy Ghost are charisms, not baptisms.
� commonly referred-to nowadays as "the Baptism in the Holy Spirit � as it has continued to occur from then until now � and will continue � which happened to me Thanksgiving Eve, 1968, in our house on Finley Point, on Flathead Lake, near Polson, Montana.
The gifts of the Holy Ghost are charisms, not baptisms.
Never said it was, don't believe it is, just said I would not willingly be without it.
Ringman, do you still hold your hands up when you pray or do you go to your closet as you are told to do in Matthew 6:6 ??
Been thinking on this one since I first saw it.
I pray with my hands up whenever the pain in my shoulders allows, I pray with hands folded, I pray on my knees, I pray on my face, I pray seated with my computer on my lap so that when I post "Done" I have really prayed, I pray when walking, I pray when laying snug in my bed, and I have even prayed in church.
I never knew there was a wrong place or a wrong way to pray. Perhaps I will loose my salvation because I have done it wrong.
It's a good thing after you accepted Jesus' offer and made your decision you didn't get killed in a wreck or somethin' before you got a chance to get baptized with water. According to some here, you woulda been doomed to hell for eternity...!
I am still having some trouble with that. The concept that a God, the same God that made us then sent His Son to die for us would condemn to Hell someone who took that same Son into his heart as his Personal Redeemer but was not Baptized.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in water being baptized. I have been and I have baptized others. I would encourage others to be baptized but I do not believe lack of baptism will condemn someone.
The soldier on the battlefield accepts Jesus but is killed before he can be baptized, the man or woman who hears the Word and accepts but died in a car crash on the way to be baptized, sorry but I believe in a bigger God than that.
Since Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians (4:5) there is but one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, first mentioned by John the Baptist, is but one thing, promised to but one special group of people, for one purpose, and then that promise was fulfilled.
First of all it was prophesied to originate with Jesus along with a baptism of fire. The baptism (immersion) in the Holy Spirit (Comforter) was promised specifically to the apostles of Christ in the upper room, prior to the Lord's last Passover feast. (John 16)
Jesus told his Apostles to wait for it in Jerusalem where they would be endued with power from on high.(Luke 24:49)
Peter and the other apostles were together in Jerusalem when the Holy Spirit fell on them (Acts 2,) as promised by John the Baptist and Jesus, and they began to preach the first Gospel sermon to the multitude in Jerusalem, gathered from all over the world. They spoke in languages (tongues) understood by all nationalities present. This was a fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel.
This outpouring of the Holy Spirit directly from heaven would not be repeated again until it occurred in the household of Cornelius, the Roman Centurion. However, this outpouring of the Spirit directly from heaven (and not through the laying on of the apostles hands Acts 8:14-18) was for an entirely different purpose.
While the outpouring of the Spirit on the apostles gave them certain Spiritual gifts that no other person possessed (such as the ability to pass on miraculous Spiritual gifts through the laying on of their hands, raising the dead, healing the sick, lame and blind, etc) this is the definition of being baptized with the Holy Spirit . . . it was the "power" promised only to the Apostles. Even Peter recognized the outpouring on Cornelius and his household was a "like" gift, in the manner it was delivered, directly from heaven, without the laying on of Peter's hands, but it was not the "same" gift (apostolic power) that was received by only the Apostles on Pentecost.
I am still having some trouble with that. The concept that a God, the same God that made us then sent His Son to die for us would condemn to Hell someone who took that same Son into his heart as his Personal Redeemer but was not Baptized. Don't get me wrong, I believe in water being baptized. I have been and I have baptized others. I would encourage others to be baptized but I do not believe lack of baptism will condemn someone. The soldier on the battlefield accepts Jesus but is killed before he can be baptized, the man or woman who hears the Word and accepts but died in a car crash on the way to be baptized, sorry but I believe in a bigger God than that.
It's a good thing after you accepted Jesus' offer and made your decision you didn't get killed in a wreck or somethin' before you got a chance to get baptized with water. According to some here, you woulda been doomed to hell for eternity...!
I'm saved by faith, not works, so I can't boast about how awesome I am. Don't know about those other guys but sounds like they're pretty awesome. Oh, and I've been baptised, too.
Course, ya know if you haven't been baptised in the name of Jesus, it doesn't count. A really awesome guy told me that one time. Actually, he told me that a lot. He was really awesome!
I am still having some trouble with that. The concept that a God, the same God that made us then sent His Son to die for us would condemn to Hell someone who took that same Son into his heart as his Personal Redeemer but was not Baptized.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in water being baptized. I have been and I have baptized others. I would encourage others to be baptized but I do not believe lack of baptism will condemn someone.
The soldier on the battlefield accepts Jesus but is killed before he can be baptized, the man or woman who hears the Word and accepts but died in a car crash on the way to be baptized, sorry but I believe in a bigger God than that.
Baptism is one of the sacraments and is symbolic for the new believer to publicly identify with Jesus in his death, burial, and resurrection. It is not a prerequisite for salvation
Some denominations won't accept other denominations baptism... you need a redo... you know, resanitized... and the softball team is members only...
Kent
One reason I am anti denominational. But never fear, I am pro Christian.
I'm non-denominational. You know, just say non. However, much like you, good friend, I am not non-Christian. Not sure I'm pro-Christian either, though, as I have not done so for monetary profit. I must be a determined amateur. I hope that's not a denomination but chances are it is. Drat!
It's a good thing after you accepted Jesus' offer and made your decision you didn't get killed in a wreck or somethin' before you got a chance to get baptized with water. According to some here, you woulda been doomed to hell for eternity...!
You're looking at it backwards. First of all, the vast majority of those who call themselves Christians go to hell. Secondly, no one goes to hell who is authentically in Christ's sheepfold, i.e., God would move heaven and earth to get a baptist to them before they died.
It's a good thing after you accepted Jesus' offer and made your decision you didn't get killed in a wreck or somethin' before you got a chance to get baptized with water. According to some here, you woulda been doomed to hell for eternity...!
1. You're looking at it backwards. 2....the vast majority of those who call themselves Christians go to hell. 3....no one goes to hell who is authentically in Christ's sheepfold, i.e., God would move heaven and earth to get a baptist to them before they died.
1. Not likely. 2. That's a preposterous statemt coming from anybody, even you...! Did you include yourself in that bunch...? 3. So a soldier who is converted on the battlefield after accepting Jesus' offer and is then obliterated by a howitzer round wasn't "authentically in Christ's sheepfold" because God didn't "move heaven and earth" to bring a baptist to him (on the battlefield) to get him baptized with water before he was killed in battle...?
Your statements are a prime example of what I meant when I said earlier, leave it to men to mess up the best thing we've ever been offered...God's gift of salvation, and the opportunity to walk through life with Him. Leave it to men to muck it up, and make it much more complicated than it really is. And leave it to men to make it dependent upon something other than it really is
Before I was convinced baptism is necessary because Jesus says so I was talking to a guy who was twenty-five years old. The twenty-five years of age is only important because he said something like, "If I wait till I'm sixty-five years old and I'm dying I had forty years to get baptized?" This caught me off guard because I had not accepted what Jesus says as important, but continued suggesting he need to received Jesus.
This intervening time applies to your soldier and anyone else who has not reached the age of accountability. They had plenty of time. God's Word says,
2 Corinthians 6:2
"for He says, 'At the acceptable time I listened to you, And on the day of salvation I helped you.' Behold, now is 'the acceptable time,' behold, now is 'the day of salvation'"
So, regarding the battlefield conversion of the soldier mentioned above...he's just [bleep] outa luck because he should've accepted Jesus' offer earlier when he had time to get baptized with water...?
So, regarding the battlefield conversion of the soldier mentioned above...he's just [bleep] outa luck because he should've accepted Jesus' offer earlier when he had time to get baptized with water...?
Matthew 28:19-20
"'Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.'�
Mark 16:15-16
"And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.'"
So, regarding the battlefield conversion of the soldier mentioned above...he's just [bleep] outa luck because he should've accepted Jesus' offer earlier when he had time to get baptized with water...?
Is that your assertion...?
You don't believe in a very powerful God if you believe he's helpless to get to his own those things he said were necessary for salvation.
So, regarding the battlefield conversion of the soldier mentioned above...he's just [bleep] outa luck because he should've accepted Jesus' offer earlier when he had time to get baptized with water...?
Matthew 28:19-20
"'Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.'�
Mark 16:15-16
"And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.'"
he who has disbelieved shall be condemned NOT he has disbelieved or failed to follow through with baptism shall be condemned.
So, regarding the battlefield conversion of the soldier mentioned above...he's just [bleep] outa luck because he should've accepted Jesus' offer earlier when he had time to get baptized with water...?
Matthew 28:19-20
"'Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.'�
Mark 16:15-16
"And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.'"
he who has disbelieved shall be condemned NOT he has disbelieved or failed to follow through with baptism shall be condemned.
Mike
The reason it's phrased the way it is is because one cannot be baptized without faith so it wasn't necessary to repeat the word baptism.
Sure they can they can have an emotional experience and think they are saved and be baptized then go to another service and have another experience and think they need to be baptized again! I have heard stories of people doubting their salvation and being baptized several times. I have not seen it personally.
You can be Baptized in every creek, pond, pool, and river in North America and not be saved! Salvation is through faith. Which leads to sanctification, which leads to growth, obedience, repentance, etc.
Some denominations won't accept other denominations baptism... you need a redo... you know, resanitized... and the softball team is members only.
One reason I am anti denominational. But never fear, I am pro Christian.
I'm non-denominational. You know, just say non. However, much like you, good friend, I am not non-Christian. Not sure I'm pro-Christian either, though, as I have not done so for monetary profit. I must be a determined amateur. I hope that's not a denomination but chances are it is. Drat!
I'm not pro Christian, either, if you confine the definition of pro to an abbreviation of professional (as in pro football, for example). I've never charged for my help (although the New Testament says that I'm entitled to it) but always (and continue to) offer it free.
But in the sense of pro- as a prefix that means "in favor of," I'm very much in favor of Christians and Christianity.
As for my own orientation, I'm an "uncompromising scripturalist" (the Bible says what it says and means what it means, altogether independent of and far above any of Man's attempts to remold it to fit his desires, comfort, predilections, and convenience). In terms of denomination, I'm neither pro- nor anti-, nor even multi-. I'm adenominational � independent of and without denomination. (But must admit to being antidenominationalism.)
The late Rev Herbert Mjrud ["MERE rude"], a Minnesota Lutheran pastor and evangelist, had a neat answer for a lady who announced forcefully "I'm a Lutheran, and I'll be a Lutheran as long as I live!"
"Fine!" Herb said, "As long as you get saved along the way."
Human-kind love to boast about satisfying the law to the point they create law that isn't. Salvation starts with faith: nothing else. It gathers steam from there for good works.
Baptism is a beautiful outward expression of an inside reality. I would counsel all believers to be baptized as such an expression, but not for salvation because it does not save.
One thing's for sure, every one of these threads that starts with a verse from the Christian Bible will end up in Peace, Brotherhood, and Good Fellowship.
Cause someone's got to bring the word to folks... telling them how they're going to hell.
Somehow Jesus made the great sacrifice... then God unleashed the Holy Spirit on all creation... but you gotta dunk in water first or it doesn't count...
"Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you�not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience�through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"
Mark 16:15-16
"And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.' He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.'"
Sure they can they can have an emotional experience and think they are saved and be baptized then go to another service and have another experience and think they need to be baptized again! I have heard stories of people doubting their salvation and being baptized several times. I have not seen it personally.
You can be Baptized in every creek, pond, pool, and river in North America and not be saved! Salvation is through faith. Which leads to sanctification, which leads to growth, obedience, repentance, etc.
Mike
I wasn't clear enough in my meaning. One may participate in a baptismal ceremony as the subject without having been actually baptized. For an extreme example, a con man who wants to victimize members of the congregation in question. He was never baptized because to him it was all a con, not an act of faith. You must distinguish between external form and the thing qua the thing.
This shouldn't cause the sincere Christian any internal torment or doubt because all that matters vis a vis state of mind is an intellectual assent to Christ's lordship and divinity, and an intention to be baptized as Christ instructed.
A wise man here (it was curdog4570) once reminded us, regarding the topics of contention among us, "...what is that to thee? Follow thou me." That put an end to it. The things that do matter (in the scheme of things), do...and the things that don't matter (in the scheme of things), don't. Regards.
It's the baptism through the Holy Ghost which saves you, the water baptism is an outwardly expression of what takes place inside you.
Baptism saves in that it creates the necessary condition for salvation, but as you correctly state, the baptized are far from being out of jeopardy. One must die in a state of grace with The Lord to be saved. Do you suppose someone who was baptized, but who died cursing God, will be saved?
The comments made by you and the supporters of your position focus on "Christianity" as being chiefly a way to avoid burning in Hell.
That's probably true in the minds of most of you, and since you get to define "Christianity", I won't argue that point.
But..... the majority of us who have developed a personal relationship with Christ through surrender to Him find a never failing Supporter thru the trials of this present life.
The idea that He will give us power to overcome our deficiencies in this life, and then desert us in our final hour of need because we neglected to dot an "i", or cross a "t", is ridiculous.
Jesus, once we come to know Him, draws a picture of Himself in our heart and mind. It is an intensely personal picture, but when we share our "Jesus experiences" with other folks, we get a composite of all our pictures.
So.......... when some yahoo starts spouting off about his "Jesus Knowledge" [not experiences], and it doesn't fit the composite picture, we reject it.
Evidently, your picture of Jesus comes strictly from the Bible, and you have drawn it yourself.
Not being content with THAT, you have to insist that YOUR picture is the correct one, and mine is wrong, or incomplete.
Well........... I've staked my very life in this world on MY picture, and I'll take my chances in the next world with it as well.
You are nothing more than a fly trying to light on my picture.
Again and again, posts on these threads remind me of the self-anointed "Bible-teacher" who oh, so solemnly trumpeted her holy "certification" based on the Holy Spirit's alleged private revelation to her that He'd inspired the dictionary.
Boy! Did she ever have some weird interpretations!
And yes, she had quite a loyal local following.
So did another like her, who proudly announced that the Holy Spirit sent the spirit of her dead cat to "minister truth" to her every night. That one claimed that she would never die, because she'd "taken command" over death, disease, and injury. (Lost a tad of credibility among her vast following � did she ever! � when word got out that her billy goat had butted her and had sent her to the hospital with a broken knee.)
The comments made by you and the supporters of your position focus on "Christianity" as being chiefly a way to avoid burning in Hell.
That's probably true in the minds of most of you, and since you get to define "Christianity", I won't argue that point.
But..... the majority of us who have developed a personal relationship with Christ through surrender to Him find a never failing Supporter thru the trials of this present life.
The idea that He will give us power to overcome our deficiencies in this life, and then desert us in our final hour of need because we neglected to dot an "i", or cross a "t", is ridiculous.
Jesus, once we come to know Him, draws a picture of Himself in our heart and mind. It is an intensely personal picture, but when we share our "Jesus experiences" with other folks, we get a composite of all our pictures.
So.......... when some yahoo starts spouting off about his "Jesus Knowledge" [not experiences], and it doesn't fit the composite picture, we reject it.
Evidently, your picture of Jesus comes strictly from the Bible, and you have drawn it yourself.
Not being content with THAT, you have to insist that YOUR picture is the correct one, and mine is wrong, or incomplete.
Well........... I've staked my very life in this world on MY picture, and I'll take my chances in the next world with it as well.
You are nothing more than a fly trying to light on my picture.
SHOO!
Proverbs 21:2
"Every man�s way is right in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the hearts."
A few minutes ago I was listening to Frank Turek, author of I don�t have enough faith to be an atheist. He was trying to give an illustration that good works will not cancel out the bad we have done in the past. He said, �Let�s suppose you live in a town with swift justice. You are arrested for drunk driving; and you are guilty. You come into court and realize your dad is the judge. He says, �You are charged with drunk driving. How do you plead?� The son or daughter knows they have all the evidence against them so says, �Guilty.� The judge says, �The fine is $5,000 or go to jail.� The kid says, �Dad, you know I don�t have $5,000.� At this point the judge steps down from his legal position, takes off his robe and hands the kid $5,000. What can the kid do? He takes the $5,000.� Frank doesn't get it though.
That�s not the end of the story. How many works did the kid do to earn the $5,000? Anyone here knows the answer is zero. But he still goes to jail if he puts the $5,000 in his pocket. In order to appropriate his release he has to walk into the next room and pay the fine. How many works is he doing when he walks into the next room? None. How many works is he doing when he hands the money to the clerk? None.
So it is with baptism. One who obeys Jesus is not doing works to earn his salvation. He is obeying to appropriate Jesus� salvation.
If I understand the concept correctly, "works" refers to making something, which may be something as simple as a drainage ditch � or a plan for one. Studying might not qualify, but writing an essay or a manuscript � I suppose � definitely would.
Shall we now launch a Campfire crowd-quibble about this, too? Oughta be entertaining. Enlightening? Maybe not so much.
Actually, the verse from Proverbs fits my position exactly.
The Verse fits everyone. As far as experience goes, witch doctors and the folks they influence have experiences. That does not keep them from God's Hell. Romans One tells us they have no excuse when He sends them and anyone else including church folk to Hell.
Don't you think there were churches prior to Noah's Flood? How many of those people were saved? According to my calculation there were at least 25 billion when God killed them.
If I understand the concept correctly, "works" refers to making something, which may be something as simple as a drainage ditch � or a plan for one. Studying might not qualify, but writing an essay or a manuscript � I suppose � definitely would.
The "works" usually used in these conversations refer to things Christians do that they don't deem necessary. Things God has listed in His Word are rejected constantly because most folks don't understand God's Grace.
Great post Curdog. It brings up a question I have asked before but did not really get answered.
How many here came to Christ because of their love for Him verses how many came to Him out of fear of Hell?
I came to Christ because I wanted to be closer to Him. Once I did that I wanted to follow his commands and thus was baptized both in water and in the Spirit. My desire to be in obedience to Christ is based on my love for him.
It appears that many follow Christ out of fear of Hell rather that a true love.
FWIW, I also believe more true followers of Christ, that is true Christians, are convinced to make the decision out of love rather that fear preaching.
An according to your calculations, the earth is 6000 years old. You have everything all figured out and have a burning desire to convince everyone else that you are "right" by using bible verses.
"God is love", according to John.
Strange how you and your bunch NEVER comment on the nature of God as you understand Him.
Jesus gave His ALL to fulfill laws the Jews had burdened themselves with and establish a new way for humans to relate to the God that made them. It neither requires, nor permits, another human's intervention between a man and his Creator.
Once you insist on ANY sacrament[if a man baptize himself, is it valid according to the "gospel of ringman?] as being anything other than an aid to a believer's FEELING closer to God, you are a stumbling block to His message.
The only reason I followed this thread after it turned to baptism is because I wanted to investigate my feelings on the subject and to see if I might be wrong. So far my mind has not changed. I still believe my God is a loving God and my desire to serve Him is well founded.
The only reason I followed this thread after it turned to baptism is because I wanted to investigate my feelings on the subject and to see if I might be wrong. So far my mind has not changed. I still believe my God is a loving God and my desire to serve Him is well founded.
Your love for Jesus depends on whether or not he requires baptism?
Not at all my friend. Remember I am for baptism, I have been baptized, and I have baptized others. It is a wonderful experience and I highly recommend it. I just cannot come to the point that in every case those not fully immersed in water are damned.
I have to admit that even though the Holy Spirit has clarified an awful lot about baptism, there's still a lot about it that I don't understand. I suspect that those who "know" so much about it know a lot that isn't so.
At first, I realized that being sprinkled as an infant wasn't scriptural baptism. I realized that I should obey Jesus but had no idea why. So I had a pastor friend dunk me in the Bitterroot River � as an act of simple, unquestioning obedience. Still don't know why.
Therefore, as you may have noticed, I haven't commented on some of this thread's contentions.
(Incidentally, several pastor friends had refused to baptize me because I wasn't a member of any of their churches.)
Great post Curdog. It brings up a question I have asked before but did not really get answered.
How many here came to Christ because of their love for Him verses how many came to Him out of fear of Hell? �
I haven't thought of it as either love for God or fear of Hell. I just knew that God is Someone Whom I want to be on good terms with � so I guess that maybe mine is an alloy of both motives.
Maybe you explained it better than I. I just know it was a desire on my part to do what was right because it was the right thing to do not because of the consequences. I am pretty sure I would be a follower of Jesus even if there was no Heaven or Hell.
He who insists that his way is the only way denies himself the right to change his mind.
Nothing else describes the daily results of my years of Bible-study better than changing my mind about something or other.
Here I was, years ago, stumbling on the rocks, fighting thru the briars, trying to find a WAY that allowed for me AND my booze, since that was all I had going for me.
I finally had to just give up and lay down in the briar patch. Then, here came a guy thru the briars and said he would help me out of the briars. Just a step or two away was a narrow trail that was clear as could be once I spotted it. I must have crossed it thousands of times without really seeing it.
The briars I had been fighting were everywhere, with no clear definition. I had tried negotiating them using dead reckoning......... and wound up dead [for all practical purposes].
That's when the "strait is the gate, and narrow the way" teaching came to its full meaning for me. Rather than constricting me, it liberated me.
Then I also learned the truth behind "my yoke is easy and my burden is light". I've never had it so good.
Now and then I encounter guys who claim I got on the trail at the wrong place, or didn't get my ticket punched right so I've gotta backtrack and get "validated", or BAD things await me down the trail.
Does ANYONE reading this believe I'm gonna pay attention to him and change my mind?
The Guide who put me on this trail has EARNED my confidence over the last 29 years.
According to Ringman etal, since I came under conviction of the Spirit and was immersed in baptism when I was 12 years old, I was guaranteed heaven when I die.
Maybe so, but I sure put myself thru Hell here on earth.
I am still having some trouble with that. The concept that a God, the same God that made us then sent His Son to die for us would condemn to Hell someone who took that same Son into his heart as his Personal Redeemer but was not Baptized.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in water being baptized. I have been and I have baptized others. I would encourage others to be baptized but I do not believe lack of baptism will condemn someone.
The soldier on the battlefield accepts Jesus but is killed before he can be baptized, the man or woman who hears the Word and accepts but died in a car crash on the way to be baptized, sorry but I believe in a bigger God than that.
In every example you mention, there is not a single reference to a Biblical example to support your emotional theory. Why not simply believe and teach others what Jesus and his Holy Spirit led apostles taught and leave all the "battlefield theories" for God to sort out?
I don't know a single Bible verse that advocates that God has promised salvation to anyone except those who have obeyed him.
. . . Baptism is a beautiful outward expression of an inside reality. I would counsel all believers to be baptized as such an expression, but not for salvation because it does not save.
Ricky, Peter said it a bit differently than you in 1 Peter 3:21 . . . "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us . . ."
There are so many more scriptures that plainly teach that it is at the point of baptism where sins are forgiven, we put on Christ, we enter the church, we are saved . . . not "baptism only," but baptism as a result our hearing and believing the gospel, repenting of our sins, and confessing Jesus as the only begotten son of God . . . it really quite simple and clearly document with book, chapter and verse in the New Covenant.
Not at all my friend. Remember I am for baptism, I have been baptized, and I have baptized others. It is a wonderful experience and I highly recommend it. I just cannot come to the point that in every case those not fully immersed in water are damned.
Scott, two things I perceive from your statement above:
1. You are for baptism because you like it, not because it is a command of Jesus upon which one's salvation depends . . .
and
2. You believe the Bible teaches a way to salvation, without obeying Jesus (Mark 16:15-16) but you just cannot find the verse for which you yearn.
God's word is like a two edged sword that will torment you until you either obey or your conscious is hardened beyond hope.
Keep reading Gods Word. Read the Book of Acts and concentrate on the several examples of conversion. The truth will literally jump of the page at you. Don't listen to the words which man's wisdom teaches ... listen to the words which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing Spiritual things to Spiritual words (ASV). (1 Cor 2:13)
To everyone in this thread who has insulted another, I rebuke you. Studying together is a blessing we have, even if we disagree. If you have called another brother names, etc, you are here for the wrong reason and should examine yourself before responding again.
To those who have kept a level head and discussed things in love, thank you for your spirit.
Acts 19: 3-6 And he said unto them, "into what then were you baptized? So, they said, "Into John's baptism. Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentancem saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came unto them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
Romans 6:3- Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Knowing this, that our old man was crucifid with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that shall also live with HIm.
The above, further illustrates John 3:5 (in which he was answering Nicodemus about how a man can be born again) where he was describing the physical act of baptism as being buried in his death, and raised again (born again of water) John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven."
Colossians 2:12 also describes the act of being buried and raised in baptism "Buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead."
1 Peter 3:21 flat out states that baptism saves us " There is also an antitype which no saves us- baptism (not the removal of filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscious toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
Mark also flatly states baptism is one part of salvation. Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned." To those that state that since baptism isn't repeated, only believing is necessary, I point you toward James 2:19-20 "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble. But do you not know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"
Jesus caused more to be baptized, physically than John the baptist. If it was not necessary, why would Jesus himself be baptized by John, and baptize those who wanted to follow him? Seems a rather pointless and confusing act if it is not necessary. John 4:1 Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His diciples)" Also, if Jesus only baptizes with the Holy Spirit, why weren't all those believers baptized with the Holy Spirit, instead of being physically baptized by the disciples?
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Once again, baptism is commanded as a part of salvation (remission of sin)
Acts 2:41 "Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. Why would they all need to be baptized? Also, it says the souls were added AFTER baptism.
Acts 18:8 "Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household, And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized. Once again, why be baptized if believing is all that's necessary?
Acts 22:16 " And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Again, baptism is referred to as cleansing sin, one part of salvation.
Galations 3:26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you were baptized into Christ have put on Christ"
Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age" Since, he directly commanded them to baptize others, then directly to them to teach them to observe things they were commanded, wouldn't that directly mean that baptism is commanded?
Every example of a conversion in the Bible is followed by baptism. If that isn't example enough for someone to believe they must be baptized, then nothing is. Do I believe that faith saves? Yes. Do I believe that it alone saves? No. Do I believe that baptism saves? Yes. Do I believe that baptism alone saves? No. Do I believe that either or both guarantee you a place in heaven? Absolutely not. Anyone can fall from grace.
Faith without works is dead. There is more than one requirement to reach the kingdom. If belief was enough, then Satan and all the fallen would be joining us there.
This is my last post on the subject. I do not place my faith in the instruction of men. I place my faith in the scriptures. They plainly state that baptism is a requirement to be a child of God, through plain, clear statements and through continuous example.
I hope that some reading this thread will open their Bible and read the entire New Testament. ALL of the commandments are important, not just the ones you choose to follow.
To everyone in this thread who has insulted another, I rebuke you. Studying together is a blessing we have, even if we disagree. If you have called another brother names, etc, you are here for the wrong reason and should examine yourself before responding again.
Insults started long before this thread and this is just 'another' baptism... he said, she said, self projectionist, scripture cherrypicking, out of context, God will damn you because you disrespect 'my' Jesus voice... Rehash...
John 3 5 is one of the most cherrypicked, out of context verses of all time. Doesn't even refer to baptism.
Nothing is more insulting than judging another person's salvation, Jesus strictly forbade it yet the same folks that say you must 'obey'... don't. When these 'damninators' do this claiming to speak God's word, they never convert and drive wedges between God and someone seeking him.
Several years ago, my friend "Ski" and his wife used to come pick me up every Sunday morning and give me a ride to their church � until one Sunday, I didn't go with 'em.
Haven't heard from 'em since.
Mrs "Ski" had already severed an old friendship between "Ski" and a close friend by snarling at the other fellow that he was "going to Hell" because he didn't believe something or other that she cherished. Wouldn't let "Ski" have anything more to do with his old friend.
I'm sure that that made Jesus look like the One to look-up-to. Uh-huh! Sure it did!
Scott, two things I perceive from your statement above:
1. You are for baptism because you like it, not because it is a command of Jesus upon which one's salvation depends . . .
No, I was baptized because the Bible says I should. But even if I did it because the Bible says so I still found it a wonderful experience. I baptized others only after a confession of faith and they all knew why they were being baptized.
Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
2. You believe the Bible teaches a way to salvation, without obeying Jesus (Mark 16:15-16) but you just cannot find the verse for which you yearn.
God's word is like a two edged sword that will torment you until you either obey or your conscious is hardened beyond hope.
Keep reading Gods Word. Read the Book of Acts and concentrate on the several examples of conversion. The truth will literally jump of the page at you. Don't listen to the words which man's wisdom teaches ... listen to the words which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing Spiritual things to Spiritual words (ASV). (1 Cor 2:13)
I freely admit that my views are just my opinions and I am not so stuck on myself to think I cannot be wrong. I have not searched for scripture stating I am right, I just put my faith in loving God.
I light of this I am thinking perhaps my time as a volunteer EMS chaplain were a total waste because some/many of those I tried to help fine the Way died. I never baptized anybody at an accident or shooting scene. I morn the loss of those I thought might be saved.
I will quit supporting the effort as of today. I will rethink my views and withdraw from this subject.
If I have offended anyone here in the thread than I sincerely apologize. It was not my intent.
To everyone in this thread who has insulted another, I rebuke you. Studying together is a blessing we have, even if we disagree. If you have called another brother names, etc, you are here for the wrong reason and should examine yourself before responding again.
Insults started long before this thread and this is just 'another' baptism... he said, she said, self projectionist, scripture cherrypicking, out of context, God will damn you because you disrespect 'my' Jesus voice... Rehash...
John 3 5 is one of the most cherrypicked, out of context verses of all time. Doesn't even refer to baptism.
Nothing is more insulting than judging another person's salvation, Jesus strictly forbade it yet the same folks that say you must 'obey'... don't. When these 'damninators' do this claiming to speak God's word, they never convert and drive wedges between God and someone seeking him.
This ain't sunday school...
Kent
I have to disagree. John 3 is all about Nicodemus asking how he can be born of his mother twice, referring to Jesus saying you must be born again. Again, I also list a supporting scripture. I also brought up numerous scriptures speaking of baptism being a commandment, not an option. Once again, from simple example, every conversion in the new testament is followed by baptism. I still haven't heard a good reason why we shouldn't do the same given those examples plus the scriptures.
Also, I have seen many, many converted from these type of discussions. But, if you bring insults to your discussions, I can understand why you haven't. They are totally counterproductive. Jesus did not teach us not to correct each other. He said not to judge someone's final destination because it is not our place. I am simply telling brothers in Christ, I do not believe their way is correct and hope they examples I have given will show them the correct way. The example of Philip and the eunuch is the way I try to approach these conversations. He read, but did not understand. And guess what, he was baptized. Although according to you, it was a totally unnecessary act that one of the apostles just happened to have taught him. I'm sure it was just mentioned in passing of course. Maybe he had horrible BO !
Constantly on my heart is the image of Jesus sitting atop a hill, gazing at the several churches in the dell, with all the hymn-singing, Bible-reading, preaching, personal testimonies, and other lauding references to what a great Person He is �
� and all the while, He's musing I just wish that they'd come up here and chew the breeze with Me.
The example of Philip and the eunuch is the way I try to approach these conversations. He read, but did not understand. And guess what, he was baptized. Although according to you, it was a totally unnecessary act that one of the apostles just happened to have taught him. I'm sure it was just mentioned in passing of course. Maybe he had horrible BO !
Constantly on my heart is the image of Jesus sitting atop a hill, gazing at the several churches in the dell, with all the hymn-singing, Bible-reading, preaching, personal testimonies, and other lauding references to what a great Person He is �
� and all the while, He's musing I just wish that they'd come up here and chew the breeze with Me.
I know that feeling!
Kinda reminds me of what I posted the other day...
Originally Posted by pahick
Ive been keeping along so far and its interesting but runs in circles. I was sitting here reading and "day dreaming" and I see me as a little kid sitting on the sidewalk, elbows on my knees, staring at two churches across the street. Jesus sits beside me and looks at the churches, then looks at me and says "What ya say we go get a soda instead"
Right now I do believe I could go for that soda. Maybe even a game of pool. Im pretty good! Might be able to take him
Somehow the word baptism in the bible always means water... and because of John 3 5... water means baptism... I guess God's word needs a thesaurus...
Wonder if the woman at the well knew her jug was full of baptism when she brought him a drink. Of course Jesus used the word water plenty in that conversation. Living water... Oh oh... what a tangled web we weave.
When folks cherrypick and then project their spin... It becomes just another sentence or paragraph... no longer God's word.
If I express my opinion of a verse and someone else disagrees... I don't pull the God word defense, I don't speak for God.
If anyone here has been baptized in water, then born in spirit because of it, then entered into the kingdom because of both... I'd find that interesting and willing to listen.
You're right, because reading a complete passage and taking its verses in the context of the story being told is cherry picking. Because when Nicodemus asks how he can be born from his mother twice and Jesus tells him about being born again, being born of water (baptism) and of the Spirit (when the Holy Spirit enters you). I doubt that Nicodemus was so dumb he had to have Jesus tell him unless you are born (the first time, out of the womb) and of the Spirit you could go to Heaven. Again, I gave another supporting scripture for the above. Along with every conversion in the New Testament being followed by baptism. Who is spinning whom krp? I don't attempt to speak for God, I let his scriptures do that. And if you want an example of someone who was baptized in water, then born in the Spirit because of it, then entered the kingdom of Heaven, you only have to look to Jesus, His baptism, the Holy Spirit coming to Him, and His entering Heaven after his death.
But wait, even Jesus' example isn't good enough for you. The Son of the living God's actions are somehow suspect and unnecessary.
[Luk 23:39-43 NASB] 39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
[Luk 23:39-43 NASB] 39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
Yet you refuse to believe this conversion.
Mike
Jesus had not died. They were still under the Old Law. We are under the New. Aside from which, if God/Jesus says someone is going to Heaven, they will, no matter which law they are under.
[Luk 23:39-43 NASB] 39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
Yet you refuse to believe this conversion.
Mike
Every Christian in this thread celebrates the conversion of the thief on the cross. What some have attempted to explain is that he died under the same covenant as Abraham and the Patriarchs, and as such did not require baptism.
I believe that immersion baptism is required for entry into Heaven. Aside from the countless examples of belief, then baptism in the new testament, John 3:5 says it all. This was Jesus himself speaking.
" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."
I do not know how much more clear a verse can get, said from the Man himself. There are many verses that state that belief saves, but I look at those verses as part of a recipe. You have to put in ALL the ingredients.
James 2 17- Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith with your works, and I will show you my faith by my works 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--- and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead.
So, not only do I believe that faith and baptism are required, but also continued works. Baptism being one of the works that must be done.
Belief in the new testament is ALWAYS followed by baptism.
This to was under the old covenant so is it no longer valid as well?
I believe that immersion baptism is required for entry into Heaven. Aside from the countless examples of belief, then baptism in the new testament, John 3:5 says it all. This was Jesus himself speaking.
" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."
I do not know how much more clear a verse can get, said from the Man himself. There are many verses that state that belief saves, but I look at those verses as part of a recipe. You have to put in ALL the ingredients.
James 2 17- Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith with your works, and I will show you my faith by my works 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--- and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead.
So, not only do I believe that faith and baptism are required, but also continued works. Baptism being one of the works that must be done.
Belief in the new testament is ALWAYS followed by baptism.
This to was under the old covenant so is it no longer valid as well?
Mike
It was said while the Old Law was still in place, but Jesus was teaching the New Law to come after his death and the fulfillment of the Old Law.
And once again, If Jesus/God says something will happen, it will happen no matter what set of Laws it is under.
I believe that immersion baptism is required for entry into Heaven. Aside from the countless examples of belief, then baptism in the new testament, John 3:5 says it all. This was Jesus himself speaking.
" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."
I do not know how much more clear a verse can get, said from the Man himself. There are many verses that state that belief saves, but I look at those verses as part of a recipe. You have to put in ALL the ingredients.
James 2 17- Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith with your works, and I will show you my faith by my works 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--- and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead.
So, not only do I believe that faith and baptism are required, but also continued works. Baptism being one of the works that must be done.
Belief in the new testament is ALWAYS followed by baptism.
This to was under the old covenant so is it no longer valid as well?
Mike
He was speaking of the new covenant he was in the process of bringing into existence but hadn't yet fully accomplished.
[Rom 4:1-13 NASB] 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
I believe that immersion baptism is required for entry into Heaven. Aside from the countless examples of belief, then baptism in the new testament, John 3:5 says it all. This was Jesus himself speaking.
" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."
I do not know how much more clear a verse can get, said from the Man himself. There are many verses that state that belief saves, but I look at those verses as part of a recipe. You have to put in ALL the ingredients.
James 2 17- Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith with your works, and I will show you my faith by my works 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--- and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead.
So, not only do I believe that faith and baptism are required, but also continued works. Baptism being one of the works that must be done.
Belief in the new testament is ALWAYS followed by baptism.
This to was under the old covenant so is it no longer valid as well?
Mike
It was said while the Old Law was still in place, but Jesus was teaching the New Law to come after his death and the fulfillment of the Old Law.
And once again, If Jesus/God says something will happen, it will happen no matter what set of Laws it is under.
Then I am glad we agree the thief on the cross was not baptized and still entered the kingdom of heaven!
I'm having a hard time with the notion that the mere mention of this or that in the Bible indicates that it's some kind of standard or requirement for us today.
Jesus tells him about being born again, being born of water (baptism) and of the Spirit (when the Holy Spirit enters you).
To bad Jesus didn't say that, huh...
Kent
It must be hard work, trying so hard not to believe what is right in front of your face. I have listed and explained my belief for many verses, listed supporting verses, and done my absolute best to be respectful of those who are conversing with me.
You, on the other hand, seem to delight in ignoring the Bible verses that don't fit what you don't want to be true. You do not have supporting scripture and you seem to take pleasure in causing rifts where you should be trying to build bridges.
Reading the context of the passages you quote from is a great thing. Maybe you should try it. I pray that God will grant you understanding.
Although, you'll have to explain to me again how all those aborted babies who die before being born along with the still births go to Heaven.
A good explanation: Jesus� statement in John 3:5��Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!��is an amplification of Jesus� prior statement to Nicodemus in 3:3 concerning the condition for seeing the kingdom of God. The equivalent of being born again or being born from above is literally being born of water and spirit. In the context of John 3:6, 8, where Jesus is arguably talking about the Holy Spirit, it makes sense to translate the phrase born of water and spirit in John 3:5 as born of water and the Spirit, where Spirit indicates the Holy Spirit.
To be born of water and the Spirit means, therefore, to experience Spiritual regeneration, which ultimately is the work of God. This is the primary idea in John 3:5, but a question remains concerning to extent to which the term water in John 3:5 indicates water baptism. In regard to this issue, the structure of the phrase of water and spirit, where two co-ordinate nouns are governed by a single preposition (i.e., ἐξ), suggests a close connection between water and Spirit. Since Gentile converts to Judaism were considered to become like newborn children through proselyte baptism (which was performed in order to cleanse them from their Gentile impurity), it is quite likely that the word water would have conveyed the idea of baptism, or at least some kind of ceremonial washing, to a Jewish audience, including Nicodemus. Elsewhere in John�s writings where the concepts of spirit and water are placed in close proximity, namely, in 1 John 5:8, spirit refers to the Holy Spirit, and water to Jesus� baptism.
Jesus� mention of water and spirit is also to be understood (as it most likely would have been in a Jewish context) in the light of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the new covenant age. The Old Testament prophets foresaw a time when God would work through his Spirit to bring Israel back to himself in covenant obedience (see Deut 30:6; Jer 31:31�33; Ezek 36:24�27). In particular, Ezekiel 36:24�27 pictures the future work of the Spirit as being like water sprinkled upon Israel to cleanse her from her uncleanness. Therefore, understanding the phrase born of water and spirit in John 3:5, in conjunction with the idea of the kingdom of God, on Jesus� lips, in a Jewish context, leads us to take the phrase born of water and spirit to be referring to conversion or baptism by the Holy Spirit.
But it should be noted at this point that baptism in the Holy Spirit was viewed by the early church as ordinarily taking place at the point of Christian (water) baptism (e.g., Acts 2:38; 1 Cor 12:13; Tit 3:5), following the model of Jesus� baptism, in which there was a conjunction of water and the Spirit (Luke 3:21�22). Exceptions to the rule of the conjunction of water and the Holy Spirit in baptism only happened at special stages in God�s plan of salvation, such as at Pentecost (Acts 1:15), at the conversion of the Samaritans (Acts 8:14�18), and at the conversion of the first Gentiles (Acts 10:24�48), matching the pattern of the evangelistic mandate in Acts 1:8, where the gospel was to be preached in Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth (i.e., to the Gentiles). Apart from these exceptions, at least as far as adult converts were concerned, baptism in water and baptism in the Spirit were considered in the early church as taking place together. This led to the view in the early church that the eschatological gift of the Spirit was received through faith at the time of conversion, i.e., at the point of Christian baptism.
It is most likely, therefore, that John�s audience, both Christian and non-Christian, would have understood the phrase of water and spirit in connection with Christian baptism, which marked the point of conversion to Christianity. Conversion to Christianity is the necessary condition for entering the kingdom of God, where entering the kingdom of God is itself a metaphor for coming into the possession of salvation, which involves having the right to live in the presence of God and to experience his blessing. All in all, the significance of Jesus� teaching in John 3:5 is that Christian conversion, which formally takes place at Christian baptism, which marks the official reception of the eschatological gift of the Holy Spirit on the part of the baptizand, is necessary in order for individuals to experience salvation in the kingdom of God.
I believe that immersion baptism is required for entry into Heaven. Aside from the countless examples of belief, then baptism in the new testament, John 3:5 says it all. This was Jesus himself speaking.
" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God."
I do not know how much more clear a verse can get, said from the Man himself. There are many verses that state that belief saves, but I look at those verses as part of a recipe. You have to put in ALL the ingredients.
James 2 17- Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith with your works, and I will show you my faith by my works 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--- and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead.
So, not only do I believe that faith and baptism are required, but also continued works. Baptism being one of the works that must be done.
Belief in the new testament is ALWAYS followed by baptism.
This to was under the old covenant so is it no longer valid as well?
Mike
It was said while the Old Law was still in place, but Jesus was teaching the New Law to come after his death and the fulfillment of the Old Law.
And once again, If Jesus/God says something will happen, it will happen no matter what set of Laws it is under.
Then I am glad we agree the thief on the cross was not baptized and still entered the kingdom of heaven!
LOL, so true! If I ever gave the impression I did not believe that, it was unintentional.
The book of Acts was quoted heavily in above posts so how about this!
[Act 16:27-33 KJV] 27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. 29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Just as it should be! Salvation through faith, followed by an act of obedience by being baptized.
I just cannot come to the point that in every case those not fully immersed in water are damned.
Only those lacking faith are dammed. But fully immersed? I hope you realize most denominations sprinkle. Only the fundamentalists fully immerse, don't they.
As a young person, I recall some friends of my parents were visiting our church and we ran into them in a restaurant so my Mom asked if they were considering joining. The woman responded they would not be as they were not comfortable with the dunking done there.
My Dad grew up in a Brethren church that baptized three times forward. I may have known the significance of that ritual at one time, but it is now lost to me.
We've not came far from the days of the pharisees, the inquisition, and the witch trials. We are still far too human to be humane.
And if you want an example of someone who was baptized in water, then born in the Spirit because of it, then entered the kingdom of Heaven, you only have to look to Jesus, His baptism, the Holy Spirit coming to Him, and His entering Heaven after his death.
That's bizarre on different levels...
Anyway, I said 'here'... since no one here can claim to have gained the result... enter... then obviously they haven't completed the qualifiers, or the qualifiers aren't what they claim... but what Jesus meant.
The book of Acts was quoted heavily in above posts so how about this!
[Act 16:27-33 KJV] 27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. 29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Just as it should be! Salvation through faith, followed by an act of obedience by being baptized.
Mike
You cannot meaningfully interpret this in isolation. Those who believe in The Lord also obey The Lord's commandments, one of which is to be baptized.
� you'll have to explain to me again how all those aborted babies who die before being born along with the still births go to Heaven.
Where's it written (or even implied!) that we have to know that?
Do all opinions have to pass other people's scrutiny?
Is Christianity supposed to be absolute universal agreement on all points?
That's not how I understand Romans 14:1�15:7.
When a direct statement is made, using krp's interpretation of John 3:5, babies who are stillborn, and babies who die during abortions before birth, shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
If Jesus thought Nicodemus and anyone who would read the scriptures was so stupid he had to explain to them that they had to be born and die before they could go to Heaven, then according to the same scripture, those who are not born before they die will not go to Heaven.
The notion is absolutely ludicrous and simple minded.
The book of Acts was quoted heavily in above posts so how about this!
[Act 16:27-33 KJV] 27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. 29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Just as it should be! Salvation through faith, followed by an act of obedience by being baptized.
Mike
You cannot meaningfully interpret this in isolation. Those who believe in The Lord also obey The Lord's commandments, one of which is to be baptized.
So are you saying if you fail to obey ANY of the Lord's commandments you are destined for Hell?
I've said I believe one should be Baptized, I disagree with those who say you can not be saved without being baptized.
[Rom 4:1-13 NASB] 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
In your Scriptural quote you discovered righteousness. Consider what James says.
James 2:14-17
"What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,' and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."
Now take a look at what Apostle Paul says after your quote above. After all salvation appears to be the goal of our conversation here.
Romans 10:9-10
"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
The book of Acts was quoted heavily in above posts so how about this!
[Act 16:27-33 KJV] 27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. 29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Just as it should be! Salvation through faith, followed by an act of obedience by being baptized.
Mike
You cannot meaningfully interpret this in isolation. Those who believe in The Lord also obey The Lord's commandments, one of which is to be baptized.
So are you saying if you fail to obey ANY of the Lord's commandments you are destined for Hell?
I've said I believe one should be Baptized, I disagree with those who say you can not be saved without being baptized.
Mike
Normally not obeying a commandment is simply a sin. In the case of baptism, it is commanded as a requirement for the remission of sins and part of salvation.
To everyone in this thread who has insulted another, I rebuke you. Studying together is a blessing we have, even if we disagree. If you have called another brother names, etc, you are here for the wrong reason and should examine yourself before responding again.
To those who have kept a level head and discussed things in love, thank you for your spirit.
Acts 19: 3-6 And he said unto them, "into what then were you baptized? So, they said, "Into John's baptism. Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentancem saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came unto them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
Romans 6:3- Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Knowing this, that our old man was crucifid with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that shall also live with HIm.
The above, further illustrates John 3:5 (in which he was answering Nicodemus about how a man can be born again) where he was describing the physical act of baptism as being buried in his death, and raised again (born again of water) John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven."
Colossians 2:12 also describes the act of being buried and raised in baptism "Buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead."
1 Peter 3:21 flat out states that baptism saves us " There is also an antitype which no saves us- baptism (not the removal of filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscious toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
Mark also flatly states baptism is one part of salvation. Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned." To those that state that since baptism isn't repeated, only believing is necessary, I point you toward James 2:19-20 "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble. But do you not know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"
Jesus caused more to be baptized, physically than John the baptist. If it was not necessary, why would Jesus himself be baptized by John, and baptize those who wanted to follow him? Seems a rather pointless and confusing act if it is not necessary. John 4:1 Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His diciples)" Also, if Jesus only baptizes with the Holy Spirit, why weren't all those believers baptized with the Holy Spirit, instead of being physically baptized by the disciples?
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Once again, baptism is commanded as a part of salvation (remission of sin)
Acts 2:41 "Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. Why would they all need to be baptized? Also, it says the souls were added AFTER baptism.
Acts 18:8 "Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household, And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized. Once again, why be baptized if believing is all that's necessary?
Acts 22:16 " And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Again, baptism is referred to as cleansing sin, one part of salvation.
Galations 3:26-27 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you were baptized into Christ have put on Christ"
Matthew 28:19-20 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age" Since, he directly commanded them to baptize others, then directly to them to teach them to observe things they were commanded, wouldn't that directly mean that baptism is commanded?
Every example of a conversion in the Bible is followed by baptism. If that isn't example enough for someone to believe they must be baptized, then nothing is. Do I believe that faith saves? Yes. Do I believe that it alone saves? No. Do I believe that baptism saves? Yes. Do I believe that baptism alone saves? No. Do I believe that either or both guarantee you a place in heaven? Absolutely not. Anyone can fall from grace.
Faith without works is dead. There is more than one requirement to reach the kingdom. If belief was enough, then Satan and all the fallen would be joining us there.
This is my last post on the subject. I do not place my faith in the instruction of men. I place my faith in the scriptures. They plainly state that baptism is a requirement to be a child of God, through plain, clear statements and through continuous example.
I hope that some reading this thread will open their Bible and read the entire New Testament. ALL of the commandments are important, not just the ones you choose to follow.
I assume you are posting towards me. Sometimes when I type, my brain works faster than I can work the keyboard. Did I say something confusing or are you just poking fun of me?
When a direct statement is made, using krp's interpretation of John 3:5, babies who are stillborn, and babies who die during abortions before birth, shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
If Jesus thought Nicodemus and anyone who would read the scriptures was so stupid he had to explain to them that they had to be born and die before they could go to Heaven, then according to the same scripture, those who are not born before they die will not go to Heaven.
The notion is absolutely ludicrous and simple minded.
The problem with many is they have to complicate the simple and lead others down a convoluted path of confusion. Possibly Nicodemus was such a one and why it was pointed out he was a Rabi and leader.
I believe, one of the reasons Jesus came was to cut through the bullchit that man creates.
The truth is you must be born into the flesh and born into the spirit before entering the kingdom. Two processes to reach one place, and only one of those processes can enter. Simple truth sometimes must be explained.
Anyway, you need to rebuke yourself for being insulting...
When a direct statement is made, using krp's interpretation of John 3:5, babies who are stillborn, and babies who die during abortions before birth, shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
If Jesus thought Nicodemus and anyone who would read the scriptures was so stupid he had to explain to them that they had to be born and die before they could go to Heaven, then according to the same scripture, those who are not born before they die will not go to Heaven.
The notion is absolutely ludicrous and simple minded.
The problem with many is they have to complicate the simple and lead others down a convoluted path of confusion. Possibly Nicodemus was such a one and why it was pointed out he was a Rabi and leader.
I believe, one of the reasons Jesus came was to cut through the bullchit that man creates.
The truth is you must be born into the flesh and born into the spirit before entering the kingdom. Two processes to reach one place, and only one of those processes can enter. Simple truth sometimes must be explained.
Anyway, you need to rebuke yourself for being insulting...
Kent
So to make sure I'm clear, you are saying that if you are not born into the flesh, you cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Yes or no?
If I insulted you, I apologize. It was not my intent.
So are you saying if you fail to obey ANY of the Lord's commandments you are destined for Hell?
I've said I believe one should be Baptized, I disagree with those who say you can not be saved without being baptized.
Mike
Jesus was quite clear regarding its necessity for salvation. So much so that a disciple was delivered to the Ethiopian so that he could be baptized right then and there, then said disciple was whisked away to someone else that needed baptism. Sounds like it's pretty important to me.
I have clarified many things in other threads, baptism has been discussed many times and I try not to repeat old rebuttals. I've also explained my views on the creation of the zygote from an egg and sperm. Once the zygote is created it is a human till physical death... could be a second or over 100 years. But no one cheats death.
Born has a definition of... brought into existence... truly, translation can muddle verse. but Jesus was talking in the context of flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit... being born again to enter the kingdom... you must shuck the flesh... that is a truth.
Whether my simple explanation is correct or not, it's closer in context than baptism, which isn't even referred to in context.
I don't believe you will go to hell for not agreeing with me... and that's the difference.
The book of Acts was quoted heavily in above posts so how about this!
[Act 16:27-33 KJV] 27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. 29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Just as it should be! Salvation through faith, followed by an act of obedience by being baptized.
Mike
You cannot meaningfully interpret this in isolation. Those who believe in The Lord also obey The Lord's commandments, one of which is to be baptized.
So are you saying if you fail to obey ANY of the Lord's commandments you are destined for Hell?
I've said I believe one should be Baptized, I disagree with those who say you can not be saved without being baptized.
Mike
Normally not obeying a commandment is simply a sin. In the case of baptism, it is commanded as a requirement for the remission of sins and part of salvation.
And back to where we disagree!
Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ, the only bridge between me and the Father is Jesus Christ.
If baptism is required I have the bridge of Jesus AND a man who must baptize me between me and the Father.
So are you saying if you fail to obey ANY of the Lord's commandments you are destined for Hell?
I've said I believe one should be Baptized, I disagree with those who say you can not be saved without being baptized.
Mike
Jesus was quite clear regarding its necessity for salvation. So much so that a disciple was delivered to the Ethiopian so that he could be baptized right then and there, then said disciple was whisked away to someone else that needed baptism. Sounds like it's pretty important to me.
[Mat 12:30-32 NASB] 30 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. 31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
readyontheright I see what you are saying, but I disagree. Baptism being required adds nothing to the bridge. It is part of crossing the bridge. While it is a man who will dunk you, it is Jesus who is washing away the sin.
" � blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. � whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." �
The unforgivable sin �
For example, saying that speaking in tongues "is of the devil," maybe?
"Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin."
You are the one claiming His action is insufficient for the granting of salvation.
Acts 3:9 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
I don't remember writing the book of Acts, but who knows.
The discussion of the forgiveness of sin is completely different than the discussion of salvation.
A good explanation: Jesus� statement in John 3:5��Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!��is an amplification of Jesus� prior statement to Nicodemus in 3:3 concerning the condition for seeing the kingdom of God. The equivalent of being born again or being born from above is literally being born of water and spirit.
As a Pharisee, Nicodemus belonged to the most prominent religious group in Israel and was a highly respected teacher. He observed all of the laws of cleanliness and piety, yet Jesus told Nicodemus that it's not enough for one to be physically clean--water is not enough for true purification, Rather, a person's nature also needs to be cleansed--or sanctified--by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. Charles Stanley
In the context of John 3:6, 8, where Jesus is arguably talking about the Holy Spirit, it makes sense to translate the phrase born of water and spirit in John 3:5 as born of water and the Spirit, where Spirit indicates the Holy Spirit.
To be born of water and the Spirit means, therefore, to experience Spiritual regeneration, which ultimately is the work of God. This is the primary idea in John 3:5, but a question remains concerning to extent to which the term water in John 3:5 indicates water baptism. In regard to this issue, the structure of the phrase of water and spirit, where two co-ordinate nouns are governed by a single preposition (i.e., ἐξ), suggests a close connection between water and Spirit. Since Gentile converts to Judaism were considered to become like newborn children through proselyte baptism (which was performed in order to cleanse them from their Gentile impurity), it is quite likely that the word water would have conveyed the idea of baptism, or at least some kind of ceremonial washing, to a Jewish audience, including Nicodemus. Elsewhere in John�s writings where the concepts of spirit and water are placed in close proximity, namely, in 1 John 5:8, spirit refers to the Holy Spirit, and water to Jesus� baptism.
Jesus� mention of water and spirit is also to be understood (as it most likely would have been in a Jewish context) in the light of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the new covenant age. The Old Testament prophets foresaw a time when God would work through his Spirit to bring Israel back to himself in covenant obedience (see Deut 30:6; Jer 31:31�33; Ezek 36:24�27). In particular, Ezekiel 36:24�27 pictures the future work of the Spirit as being like water sprinkled upon Israel to cleanse her from her uncleanness. Therefore, understanding the phrase born of water and spirit in John 3:5, in conjunction with the idea of the kingdom of God, on Jesus� lips, in a Jewish context, leads us to take the phrase born of water and spirit to be referring to conversion or baptism by the Holy Spirit.
But it should be noted at this point that baptism in the Holy Spirit was viewed by the early church as ordinarily taking place at the point of Christian (water) baptism (e.g., Acts 2:38; 1 Cor 12:13; Tit 3:5), following the model of Jesus� baptism, in which there was a conjunction of water and the Spirit (Luke 3:21�22). Exceptions to the rule of the conjunction of water and the Holy Spirit in baptism only happened at special stages in God�s plan of salvation, such as at Pentecost (Acts 1:15), at the conversion of the Samaritans (Acts 8:14�18), and at the conversion of the first Gentiles (Acts 10:24�48), matching the pattern of the evangelistic mandate in Acts 1:8, where the gospel was to be preached in Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth (i.e., to the Gentiles). Apart from these exceptions, at least as far as adult converts were concerned, baptism in water and baptism in the Spirit were considered in the early church as taking place together. This led to the view in the early church that the eschatological gift of the Spirit was received through faith at the time of conversion, i.e., at the point of Christian baptism. [Act 4:31 NASB] 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.
[Act 10:43-48 NASB] 43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
It is most likely, therefore, that John�s audience, both Christian and non-Christian, would have understood the phrase of water and spirit in connection with Christian baptism, which marked the point of conversion to Christianity. Conversion to Christianity is the necessary condition for entering the kingdom of God, where entering the kingdom of God is itself a metaphor for coming into the possession of salvation, which involves having the right to live in the presence of God and to experience his blessing. All in all, the significance of Jesus� teaching in John 3:5 is that Christian conversion, which formally takes place at Christian baptism, which marks the official reception of the eschatological gift of the Holy Spirit on the part of the baptizand, is necessary in order for individuals to experience salvation in the kingdom of God. [/quote]
Who you gonna believe? Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him Romans 10:13 King James Version (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Using scripture from the Gospel of Mark, the Pope got it right. Christ died so that all good people receive justice in the afterlife. Heaven is full of Jews, Buddhists, Atheists and even us poor Heathens.
�Just do good, and we�ll find a meeting point,� said the Pontiff. �The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!�
Pope Francis went further in his sermon to say: �The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us.
�But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.� Yes, he can� �The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics.
Everyone! �Father, the atheists?� Even the atheists. Everyone!�.. We must meet one another doing good. �But I don�t believe, Father, I am an atheist!� But do good: we will meet one another there.�
Father James Martin: �Pope Francis is saying, more clearly than ever before, that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for everyone. That�s always been a Christian belief.
You can find St. Paul saying in the First Letter to Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a �ransom for all.�
But rarely do you hear it said by Catholics so forcefully, and with such evident joy. And in this era of religious controversies, it�s a timely reminder that God cannot be confined to our narrow categories.�
Who you gonna believe? Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him Romans 10:13 King James Version (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Using scripture from the Gospel of Mark, the Pope got it right. Christ died so that all good people receive justice in the afterlife. Heaven is full of Jews, Buddhists, Atheists and even us poor Heathens.
�Just do good, and we�ll find a meeting point,� said the Pontiff. �The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!�
Pope Francis went further in his sermon to say: �The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us.
�But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.� Yes, he can� �The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics.
Everyone! �Father, the atheists?� Even the atheists. Everyone!�.. We must meet one another doing good. �But I don�t believe, Father, I am an atheist!� But do good: we will meet one another there.�
Father James Martin: �Pope Francis is saying, more clearly than ever before, that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for everyone. That�s always been a Christian belief.
You can find St. Paul saying in the First Letter to Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a �ransom for all.�
But rarely do you hear it said by Catholics so forcefully, and with such evident joy. And in this era of religious controversies, it�s a timely reminder that God cannot be confined to our narrow categories.�
Who you gonna believe? Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon himTherefore making them Christians not Buddhist, atheist, heathens or Jews unless Messianic Jews Romans 10:13 King James Version (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Using scripture from the Gospel of Mark, the Pope got it right. Christ died so that all good people receive justice in the afterlife. Heaven is full of Jews, Buddhists, Atheists and even us poor Heathens.
�Just do good, and we�ll find a meeting point,� said the Pontiff. �The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!�
Pope Francis went further in his sermon to say: �The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us.
�But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.� Yes, he can� �The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics.
Everyone! �Father, the atheists?� Even the atheists. Everyone!�.. We must meet one another doing good. �But I don�t believe, Father, I am an atheist!� But do good: we will meet one another there.�
Father James Martin: �Pope Francis is saying, more clearly than ever before, that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for everyone. That�s always been a Christian belief.
You can find St. Paul saying in the First Letter to Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a �ransom for all.�
But rarely do you hear it said by Catholics so forcefully, and with such evident joy. And in this era of religious controversies, it�s a timely reminder that God cannot be confined to our narrow categories.�
No remission of sin without the shedding of blood!
If Baptism and faith in Jesus as God with us were all that was required then there would have been no need to die on the cross!
It's about salvation through faith that Jesus shed His blood for the covering or remission or propitiation of sin. He was dead and resurrected and now sits at the right hand of the Father.
It is by grace, through faith, not of works that we are saved.
That is not a command to us, he's speaking directly to the disciples. If I cherry pick the next words 'whoever does not believe will be condemned' then baptism isn't included in condemnation.
None of the other 'signs' are a concern for my salvation, yet following all yall's theology... better get to snake charming.
The Great Commission
14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15 And he said to them, �Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.�
19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by accompanying signs.
Everyone should believe in something. I believe I'll have another drink. After reading this thread surely I need one.
BTDT............. and sometimes it helped.
This thread is NOT about "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" like the majority of religious threads on this forum.
If these Campbellites -and their fellow travelers, like TRH- are correct in the single point they are trying to hammer home, that water baptism is essential to salvation, then it naturally follows that the REASON in the candidates mind must be correct, the ritual itself must be correct, the person doing the baptizing must be an approved person, and THEIR congregation makes ALL these determinations. The idea of "the camel's nose is under the tent" applies here.
If their main focus was sending missionaries to those who have never heard the Gospel, their doctrines wouldn't be very important.
But.... their focus wherever they are found is the same as what is displayed here; to convince believers of other congregations that they are NOT in fellowship with God.
The more I read these threads, the more I admire Jesus for avoiding the written word. One of his life lessons I can appreciate... he didn't teach from it, engage in it, command his disciples to write bibles... or go door to door ringing the bell with pamphlets.
Words can't define God, contain him or is there enough to explain him.
That's what the Holy Spirit does, not to tell us what written word means... but what Christ means.
That is not a command to us, he's speaking directly to the disciples. If I cherry pick the next words 'whoever does not believe will be condemned' then baptism isn't included in condemnation.
Nor should it be, as he had just stated the indispensable conditions for salvation and, since baptism follows belief in order, it wasn't necessary to repeat it.
1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
I can't see any more clearly than that now. How wonderful it must be to see every little detail with perfect clarity! I envy those who already can.
I'm having a hard time with the notion that the mere mention of this or that in the Bible indicates that it's some kind of standard or requirement for us today.
Ken, do yo refer to the topic of baptism as "this or that?"
Btw, who can say assuredly that the "thief on the cross" had not been baptized with the baptism of Jesus or John? Where is the proof?
Since you hold baptism to be necessary for salvation, I'd like answers to the following questions, if you have time. ["I don't know" is a proper answer if it's truthful]
In this present time :
What person can perform an effective baptism?
What is the accepted method?
If a person publicly states his belief in Christ, expresses repentance, and is baptized in accordance with your answers to the first two questions, but publicly states that baptism is NOT a requirement for salvation, what is his standing with regard to salvation?
I'm not one to demand an opinion be backed up by bible verses, BTW, just asking your take on these questions.
The more I read these threads, the more I admire Jesus for avoiding the written word. One of his life lessons I can appreciate... he didn't teach from it, engage in it, command his disciples to write bibles... or go door to door ringing the bell with pamphlets.
Words can't define God, contain him or is there enough to explain him.
That's what the Holy Spirit does, not to tell us what written word means... but what Christ means.
Kent
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of god unto salvation to everyone who believeth. . . Romans 1:16
This thread calls to mind an episode of All in the Family shown many years past. In it, Archie had taken a small child into a church and baptised same in a fountain. He did this in a stealthy manner so no one would catch him. He was worried that the parents would not have the child baptised so took matters into his own hands. Not because he was christian, but he just new it should be done. As he was pouring water over the child's head, Archie exclaimed,"I baptise you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
If that had happened today and had been reported in the news, would the baptism be valid regardless of the human element of the baptiser?
1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
I can't see any more clearly than that now. How wonderful it must be to see every little detail with perfect clarity! I envy those who already can.
Although we don't see every detail as clearly as we will someday, some of us see more clearly than others. God's Word tells us the Holy Spirit will guide us into all Truth. Jesus says God's Word is Truth. We unapologetically accept God's Word and back it with our lives. We do not rely on personal experiences because everyone's ways are right in their own eyes. We constantly bring ourselves into obedience like we read in,
2 Corinthians 10:5
"We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,"
"........... for it is the power of god unto salvation to everyone who believeth. . . Romans 1:16"
That was true before Paul thought the thought or wrote the words down.
I believe THAT is the point Kent is making.
It naturally follows that the Holy Spirit could put that same thought in Kent's mind even if he had never read the Bible.
Right?
How would Kent know that there was a Holy Spirit unless he read about it in the Bible? The Jews that Paul met in Ephesus (acts 19:2) had never heard of the Holy Spirit, and they lived at the time of miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, received only by the laying on of the apostle's hands (except for the household of Cornelius.)
This thread calls to mind an episode of All in the Family shown many years past. In it, Archie had taken a small child into a church and baptised same in a fountain. He did this in a stealthy manner so no one would catch him. He was worried that the parents would not have the child baptised so took matters into his own hands. Not because he was christian, but he just new it should be done. As he was pouring water over the child's head, Archie exclaimed,"I baptise you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
If that had happened today and had been reported in the news, would the baptism be valid regardless of the human element of the baptiser?
Baptism, as defined in the Greek, means immersion. Sprinkling and pouring is not New Testament baptism as depicted in the New Testament. Archie was probably a catholic, so to him it was baptism.
Which group disparages the other group with derogatory statements?
You mean like you and TRH judging another person's salvation...?
How flippin' disparaging and derogatory do you consider that to be...?
Where have I or he done that? We've spoken of what the Bible says on the level of principle, never having speculated about any particular person's salvation.
This thread calls to mind an episode of All in the Family shown many years past. In it, Archie had taken a small child into a church and baptised same in a fountain. He did this in a stealthy manner so no one would catch him. He was worried that the parents would not have the child baptised so took matters into his own hands. Not because he was christian, but he just new it should be done. As he was pouring water over the child's head, Archie exclaimed,"I baptise you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
If that had happened today and had been reported in the news, would the baptism be valid regardless of the human element of the baptiser?
Baptism, as defined in the Greek, means immersion. Sprinkling and pouring is not New Testament baptism as depicted in the New Testament. Archie was probably a catholic, so to him it was baptism.
and even at that he baptized wrong.... Father, Son and Holy Ghost are titles or offices, the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is quite simply Lord Jesus Christ
This thread calls to mind an episode of All in the Family shown many years past. In it, Archie had taken a small child into a church and baptised same in a fountain. He did this in a stealthy manner so no one would catch him. He was worried that the parents would not have the child baptised so took matters into his own hands. Not because he was christian, but he just new it should be done. As he was pouring water over the child's head, Archie exclaimed,"I baptise you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
If that had happened today and had been reported in the news, would the baptism be valid regardless of the human element of the baptiser?
The Roman Catholic theological doctors have considered this question, and I remember studying their answer. It is that the baptism would only become valid the moment the infant reached a level of maturity necessary to understand who Jesus was and desired the baptism.
This thread calls to mind an episode of All in the Family shown many years past. In it, Archie had taken a small child into a church and baptised same in a fountain. He did this in a stealthy manner so no one would catch him. He was worried that the parents would not have the child baptised so took matters into his own hands. Not because he was christian, but he just new it should be done. As he was pouring water over the child's head, Archie exclaimed,"I baptise you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
If that had happened today and had been reported in the news, would the baptism be valid regardless of the human element of the baptiser?
Baptism, as defined in the Greek, means immersion. Sprinkling and pouring is not New Testament baptism as depicted in the New Testament. Archie was probably a catholic, so to him it was baptism.
He stipulated that the baptizer was not a believer, but Catholics would say that so long as Archie wished to do what the Catholic Church intends in baptism, it was valid.
John was different from almost every person who was ever born. Consider the following Scriptures.
Malachi 4:5-6 YHWH speaking,
�'Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.'"
Matthew 11:13-14 Jesus speaking,
"'For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.'"
Matthew 17:10-13 Jesus speaking,
"And His disciples asked Him, 'Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?' And He answered and said, 'Elijah is coming and will restore all things; but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.' Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist."
Since you hold baptism to be necessary for salvation, I'd like answers to the following questions, if you have time. ["I don't know" is a proper answer if it's truthful]
In this present time :
What person can perform an effective baptism? i am defining "effective" as scriptural. There are no qualifications required of scripture for the baptizer.
What is the accepted method? immersion is the definition of baptism. The Ethiopian eunuch asked Philip the evangelist what would hinder him from being baptized immediately after he had heard the gospel preached unto him. Philip, filled with the Holy Spirit relied, "if thou believest, thou mayst. That explains one reason why infant baptism is unnecessary. They do not "believe."
If a person publicly states his belief in Christ, expresses repentance, and is baptized in accordance with your answers to the first two questions, but publicly states that baptism is NOT a requirement for salvation, what is his standing with regard to salvation?only God can determine "standing" when we attempt to split hairs. The question of whether a person can obey God without understanding the reward for doing so, is a long standing debate.
I'm not one to demand an opinion be backed up by bible verses, BTW, just asking your take on these questions.
I'm am curious what would be your opinion of a man who believes all "good people" will be saved regardless if they believe Jesus is the son of God, but he believes, even though he doesn't think faith is necessary to be saved? Will his faith save him. How about all the good people who don't have faith? Just curios. Thanks.
Me saying I love Him with all my heart every night might not be enough.
would have you believe otherwise. Only by faith, and that a gift of God, will one enter the Kingdom.
Don't forget to ask the Holy Spirit to shed some light on it in the Name of Jesus!
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