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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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"A wise man here"......... . Thanks friend. You'd be more correct in describing me as "a well-worn man here". 
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I know, I'll even go one step further and say it is all by election..... Yeah.......... and I'm sure you already have the bible verses picked out to "prove your point".
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
Again and again, posts on these threads remind me of the self-anointed "Bible-teacher" who oh, so solemnly trumpeted her holy "certification" based on the Holy Spirit's alleged private revelation to her that He'd inspired the dictionary.
Boy! Did she ever have some weird interpretations!
And yes, she had quite a loyal local following.
So did another like her, who proudly announced that the Holy Spirit sent the spirit of her dead cat to "minister truth" to her every night. That one claimed that she would never die, because she'd "taken command" over death, disease, and injury. (Lost a tad of credibility among her vast following � did she ever! � when word got out that her billy goat had butted her and had sent her to the hospital with a broken knee.)
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,920 Likes: 3 |
This thread misses the "Big Picture".
The comments made by you and the supporters of your position focus on "Christianity" as being chiefly a way to avoid burning in Hell.
That's probably true in the minds of most of you, and since you get to define "Christianity", I won't argue that point.
But..... the majority of us who have developed a personal relationship with Christ through surrender to Him find a never failing Supporter thru the trials of this present life.
The idea that He will give us power to overcome our deficiencies in this life, and then desert us in our final hour of need because we neglected to dot an "i", or cross a "t", is ridiculous.
Jesus, once we come to know Him, draws a picture of Himself in our heart and mind. It is an intensely personal picture, but when we share our "Jesus experiences" with other folks, we get a composite of all our pictures.
So.......... when some yahoo starts spouting off about his "Jesus Knowledge" [not experiences], and it doesn't fit the composite picture, we reject it.
Evidently, your picture of Jesus comes strictly from the Bible, and you have drawn it yourself.
Not being content with THAT, you have to insist that YOUR picture is the correct one, and mine is wrong, or incomplete.
Well........... I've staked my very life in this world on MY picture, and I'll take my chances in the next world with it as well.
You are nothing more than a fly trying to light on my picture.
SHOO! "Every man�s way is right in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the hearts." A few minutes ago I was listening to Frank Turek, author of I don�t have enough faith to be an atheist. He was trying to give an illustration that good works will not cancel out the bad we have done in the past. He said, �Let�s suppose you live in a town with swift justice. You are arrested for drunk driving; and you are guilty. You come into court and realize your dad is the judge. He says, �You are charged with drunk driving. How do you plead?� The son or daughter knows they have all the evidence against them so says, �Guilty.� The judge says, �The fine is $5,000 or go to jail.� The kid says, �Dad, you know I don�t have $5,000.� At this point the judge steps down from his legal position, takes off his robe and hands the kid $5,000. What can the kid do? He takes the $5,000.� Frank doesn't get it though. That�s not the end of the story. How many works did the kid do to earn the $5,000? Anyone here knows the answer is zero. But he still goes to jail if he puts the $5,000 in his pocket. In order to appropriate his release he has to walk into the next room and pay the fine. How many works is he doing when he walks into the next room? None. How many works is he doing when he hands the money to the clerk? None. So it is with baptism. One who obeys Jesus is not doing works to earn his salvation. He is obeying to appropriate Jesus� salvation.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
If I understand the concept correctly, "works" refers to making something, which may be something as simple as a drainage ditch � or a plan for one. Studying might not qualify, but writing an essay or a manuscript � I suppose � definitely would.
Shall we now launch a Campfire crowd-quibble about this, too? Oughta be entertaining. Enlightening? Maybe not so much.
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239 |
Actually, the verse from Proverbs fits my position exactly.
I consider my way as right for me or I would change it. And God, not you, knows my heart and I'm confident in His judgment.
The rest of your post is NOT responsive to mine as you are still making an argument from theology..... not YOUR experience.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,920 Likes: 3 |
Actually, the verse from Proverbs fits my position exactly. The Verse fits everyone. As far as experience goes, witch doctors and the folks they influence have experiences. That does not keep them from God's Hell. Romans One tells us they have no excuse when He sends them and anyone else including church folk to Hell. Don't you think there were churches prior to Noah's Flood? How many of those people were saved? According to my calculation there were at least 25 billion when God killed them.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,920 Likes: 3 |
If I understand the concept correctly, "works" refers to making something, which may be something as simple as a drainage ditch � or a plan for one. Studying might not qualify, but writing an essay or a manuscript � I suppose � definitely would. The "works" usually used in these conversations refer to things Christians do that they don't deem necessary. Things God has listed in His Word are rejected constantly because most folks don't understand God's Grace.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Dec 2000
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301 |
Great post Curdog. It brings up a question I have asked before but did not really get answered.
How many here came to Christ because of their love for Him verses how many came to Him out of fear of Hell?
I came to Christ because I wanted to be closer to Him. Once I did that I wanted to follow his commands and thus was baptized both in water and in the Spirit. My desire to be in obedience to Christ is based on my love for him.
It appears that many follow Christ out of fear of Hell rather that a true love.
FWIW, I also believe more true followers of Christ, that is true Christians, are convinced to make the decision out of love rather that fear preaching.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Posts: 24,239 |
An according to your calculations, the earth is 6000 years old. You have everything all figured out and have a burning desire to convince everyone else that you are "right" by using bible verses.
"God is love", according to John.
Strange how you and your bunch NEVER comment on the nature of God as you understand Him.
Jesus gave His ALL to fulfill laws the Jews had burdened themselves with and establish a new way for humans to relate to the God that made them. It neither requires, nor permits, another human's intervention between a man and his Creator.
Once you insist on ANY sacrament[if a man baptize himself, is it valid according to the "gospel of ringman?] as being anything other than an aid to a believer's FEELING closer to God, you are a stumbling block to His message.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
Old saying worth hanging on the wall �
He who insists that his way is the only way denies himself the right to change his mind.
Nothing else describes the daily results of my years of Bible-study better than changing my mind about something or other.
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239 |
I don't know Scott, but I expect a lot of folks came to God by backing away from Hell.I don't think it matters a lot how we get here.
But.... once we are here, if we don't embrace Jesus as a WAY thru this life, we are sure shortchanging ourselves.
But.......... when we do, the "Bible we've heard preached" takes on a whole different hue.
It becomes something that can reinforce what we already know rather than a means of condemnation.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301 |
The only reason I followed this thread after it turned to baptism is because I wanted to investigate my feelings on the subject and to see if I might be wrong. So far my mind has not changed. I still believe my God is a loving God and my desire to serve Him is well founded.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,947 Likes: 54 |
The only reason I followed this thread after it turned to baptism is because I wanted to investigate my feelings on the subject and to see if I might be wrong. So far my mind has not changed. I still believe my God is a loving God and my desire to serve Him is well founded. Your love for Jesus depends on whether or not he requires baptism?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Posts: 39,301 |
Not at all my friend. Remember I am for baptism, I have been baptized, and I have baptized others. It is a wonderful experience and I highly recommend it. I just cannot come to the point that in every case those not fully immersed in water are damned.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
I have to admit that even though the Holy Spirit has clarified an awful lot about baptism, there's still a lot about it that I don't understand. I suspect that those who "know" so much about it know a lot that isn't so.
At first, I realized that being sprinkled as an infant wasn't scriptural baptism. I realized that I should obey Jesus but had no idea why. So I had a pastor friend dunk me in the Bitterroot River � as an act of simple, unquestioning obedience. Still don't know why.
Therefore, as you may have noticed, I haven't commented on some of this thread's contentions.
(Incidentally, several pastor friends had refused to baptize me because I wasn't a member of any of their churches.)
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
Great post Curdog. It brings up a question I have asked before but did not really get answered.
How many here came to Christ because of their love for Him verses how many came to Him out of fear of Hell? � I haven't thought of it as either love for God or fear of Hell. I just knew that God is Someone Whom I want to be on good terms with � so I guess that maybe mine is an alloy of both motives.
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301 |
Maybe you explained it better than I. I just know it was a desire on my part to do what was right because it was the right thing to do not because of the consequences. I am pretty sure I would be a follower of Jesus even if there was no Heaven or Hell.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
� I am pretty sure I would be a follower of Jesus even if there was no Heaven or Hell. Right on! I can't think of any better reason or motive.
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 24,851
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 24,851 |
Great post Curdog. It brings up a question I have asked before but did not really get answered.
How many here came to Christ because of their love for Him verses how many came to Him out of fear of Hell?
neither, He does the choosing, the person in question just realizes it.....
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