Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Romans 10:13

Jesus had not died. They were still under the Old Law. We are under the New. Aside from which, if God/Jesus says someone is going to Heaven, they will, no matter which law they are under.

Every Christian in this thread celebrates the conversion of the thief on the cross. What some have attempted to explain is that he died under the same covenant as Abraham and the Patriarchs, and as such did not require baptism.

This to was under the old covenant so is it no longer valid as well?

Mike

It was said while the Old Law was still in place, but Jesus was teaching the New Law to come after his death and the fulfillment of the Old Law.

And once again, If Jesus/God says something will happen, it will happen no matter what set of Laws it is under.

He was speaking of the new covenant he was in the process of bringing into existence but hadn't yet fully accomplished.

[Rom 4:1-13 NASB] 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

To bad Jesus didn't say that, huh...

Kent

Then I am glad we agree the thief on the cross was not baptized and still entered the kingdom of heaven!

AMEN!

I'm having a hard time with the notion that the mere mention of this or that in the Bible indicates that it's some kind of standard or requirement for us today.

It must be hard work, trying so hard not to believe what is right in front of your face. I have listed and explained my belief for many verses, listed supporting verses, and done my absolute best to be respectful of those who are conversing with me.

You, on the other hand, seem to delight in ignoring the Bible verses that don't fit what you don't want to be true. You do not have supporting scripture and you seem to take pleasure in causing rifts where you should be trying to build bridges.

Reading the context of the passages you quote from is a great thing. Maybe you should try it. I pray that God will grant you understanding.

Although, you'll have to explain to me again how all those aborted babies who die before being born along with the still births go to Heaven.


A good explanation:
Jesus� statement in John 3:5��Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!��is an amplification of Jesus� prior statement to Nicodemus in 3:3 concerning the condition for seeing the kingdom of God. The equivalent of being born again or being born from above is literally being born of water and spirit. In the context of John 3:6, 8, where Jesus is arguably talking about the Holy Spirit, it makes sense to translate the phrase born of water and spirit in John 3:5 as born of water and the Spirit, where Spirit indicates the Holy Spirit.

To be born of water and the Spirit means, therefore, to experience Spiritual regeneration, which ultimately is the work of God. This is the primary idea in John 3:5, but a question remains concerning to extent to which the term water in John 3:5 indicates water baptism. In regard to this issue, the structure of the phrase of water and spirit, where two co-ordinate nouns are governed by a single preposition (i.e., ἐξ), suggests a close connection between water and Spirit. Since Gentile converts to Judaism were considered to become like newborn children through proselyte baptism (which was performed in order to cleanse them from their Gentile impurity), it is quite likely that the word water would have conveyed the idea of baptism, or at least some kind of ceremonial washing, to a Jewish audience, including Nicodemus. Elsewhere in John�s writings where the concepts of spirit and water are placed in close proximity, namely, in 1 John 5:8, spirit refers to the Holy Spirit, and water to Jesus� baptism.

Jesus� mention of water and spirit is also to be understood (as it most likely would have been in a Jewish context) in the light of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the new covenant age. The Old Testament prophets foresaw a time when God would work through his Spirit to bring Israel back to himself in covenant obedience (see Deut 30:6; Jer 31:31�33; Ezek 36:24�27). In particular, Ezekiel 36:24�27 pictures the future work of the Spirit as being like water sprinkled upon Israel to cleanse her from her uncleanness. Therefore, understanding the phrase born of water and spirit in John 3:5, in conjunction with the idea of the kingdom of God, on Jesus� lips, in a Jewish context, leads us to take the phrase born of water and spirit to be referring to conversion or baptism by the Holy Spirit.

But it should be noted at this point that baptism in the Holy Spirit was viewed by the early church as ordinarily taking place at the point of Christian (water) baptism (e.g., Acts 2:38; 1 Cor 12:13; Tit 3:5), following the model of Jesus� baptism, in which there was a conjunction of water and the Spirit (Luke 3:21�22). Exceptions to the rule of the conjunction of water and the Holy Spirit in baptism only happened at special stages in God�s plan of salvation, such as at Pentecost (Acts 1:15), at the conversion of the Samaritans (Acts 8:14�18), and at the conversion of the first Gentiles (Acts 10:24�48), matching the pattern of the evangelistic mandate in Acts 1:8, where the gospel was to be preached in Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth (i.e., to the Gentiles). Apart from these exceptions, at least as far as adult converts were concerned, baptism in water and baptism in the Spirit were considered in the early church as taking place together. This led to the view in the early church that the eschatological gift of the Spirit was received through faith at the time of conversion, i.e., at the point of Christian baptism.

It is most likely, therefore, that John�s audience, both Christian and non-Christian, would have understood the phrase of water and spirit in connection with Christian baptism, which marked the point of conversion to Christianity. Conversion to Christianity is the necessary condition for entering the kingdom of God, where entering the kingdom of God is itself a metaphor for coming into the possession of salvation, which involves having the right to live in the presence of God and to experience his blessing. All in all, the significance of Jesus� teaching in John 3:5 is that Christian conversion, which formally takes place at Christian baptism, which marks the official reception of the eschatological gift of the Holy Spirit on the part of the baptizand, is necessary in order for individuals to experience salvation in the kingdom of God.

He entered heaven by precisely the same means as did Abraham.

LOL, so true! If I ever gave the impression I did not believe that, it was unintentional.

Me too Doctor Howell!

The book of Acts was quoted heavily in above posts so how about this!

[Act 16:27-33 KJV] 27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. 29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.






Just as it should be! Salvation through faith, followed by an act of obedience by being baptized.

Mike

Only those lacking faith are dammed. But fully immersed? I hope you realize most denominations sprinkle. Only the fundamentalists fully immerse, don't they.

As a young person, I recall some friends of my parents were visiting our church and we ran into them in a restaurant so my Mom asked if they were considering joining. The woman responded they would not be as they were not comfortable with the dunking done there.

My Dad grew up in a Brethren church that baptized three times forward. I may have known the significance of that ritual at one time, but it is now lost to me.

We've not came far from the days of the pharisees, the inquisition, and the witch trials. We are still far too human to be humane.

Where's it written (or even implied!) that we have to know that?

Do all opinions have to pass other people's scrutiny?

Is Christianity supposed to be absolute universal agreement on all points?

That's not how I understand Romans 14:1�15:7.

That's bizarre on different levels...

Anyway, I said 'here'... since no one here can claim to have gained the result... enter... then obviously they haven't completed the qualifiers, or the qualifiers aren't what they claim... but what Jesus meant.

Kent

You cannot meaningfully interpret this in isolation. Those who believe in The Lord also obey The Lord's commandments, one of which is to be baptized.

When a direct statement is made, using krp's interpretation of John 3:5, babies who are stillborn, and babies who die during abortions before birth, shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

If Jesus thought Nicodemus and anyone who would read the scriptures was so stupid he had to explain to them that they had to be born and die before they could go to Heaven, then according to the same scripture, those who are not born before they die will not go to Heaven.

The notion is absolutely ludicrous and simple minded.

To hit a target east of you, aim east, not south.