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Joined: Sep 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I have personally had and have seen firsthand Glock 22's with parts breakages. Extractors, one ejector, front factory night sights coming loose and one with a badly bulged barrel. My experience with riding herd on a couple dozen department issued G22's actually soured me on the .40 S&W cartridge. Just don't care for it, figure I can do well enough with either the 9mm or the .45 ACP with fewer problems. With that said I did just buy a Glock 20 10mm for a woods bumming gun. Kinda hard to beat that easy carrying package of 16 rounds of 220 gr. hard cast at 1,250 fps in brushy hog country.
My plastic pistol of choice is the M&P. +1 Edit: A Glock is supposed to have its trigger spring changed every 5K rds. The extractor has a service interval as well but I don't recall. Recoil springs are like brake pads, change 'em. I've seen a bunch of bulged Glock brass on the ground and I know of one broken extractor. Just change it.
Last edited by Take_a_knee; 01/14/14.
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Joined: May 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
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Good game...Good game....
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
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The XD and M&P haven't been around as long as Glock, but they have both proven themselves quite well. About the toughest environment for a handgun is the shooting schools. The XD and M&P both have a heavy presence at schools all over the country and have been holding up quite well; every bit as good as the Glock.
I consider all three to be pretty much equal; they're just different. How do pre-83 S&W revolvers hold up in those schools? The classes i took and taught in the early '90's were a mixed bag. The 39-2 was almost never a problem, but it wasnt uncommon to see 59's with malfunctions. Not saying they were all bad, but for some reason it seemed to have more problems than the 39. Still, you have to consider that the shooting schools are rather extreme tests. I've never heard of an instance where someone used a handgun that hard in combat. But it is reassuring to see your Roscoe hold up well under high round count. These days, it would be rare to see one of the old S&W autos in one of the schools. Its even fairly uncommon to see the 3rd gen's these days. I asked about revolvers. Sorry, was reading off my phone while at a basketball game. The schools where i was at (learning or teaching), there were very few revolvers. And usually after the first day the revolver shooters would switch to autos. I tried to do a class for nothing but revolvers, with an emphasis on snubbies, but just couldnt get enough interest.
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 851
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Another thing about M&P's. S&W has got the nitride thing nailed down. It works. An M&P has a nitrided STAINLESS STEEL slide. A Glock's slide is frickin' pot metal, once you cut through that Tenifer. Rumors abound about Glocks' new finish not being as good as it was....time will tell. You do realize that the M&P's had corrosion issues early on due to nitriding stainless and it took them a bit to get that figured out. As far as one steel being better than the other, one would have to know the particular alloys used, not just in generic terms such as "stainless steel" or "pot metal".
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
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I have personally had and have seen firsthand Glock 22's with parts breakages. Extractors, one ejector, front factory night sights coming loose and one with a badly bulged barrel. My experience with riding herd on a couple dozen department issued G22's actually soured me on the .40 S&W cartridge. Just don't care for it, figure I can do well enough with either the 9mm or the .45 ACP with fewer problems. With that said I did just buy a Glock 20 10mm for a woods bumming gun. Kinda hard to beat that easy carrying package of 16 rounds of 220 gr. hard cast at 1,250 fps in brushy hog country.
My plastic pistol of choice is the M&P. I have two and my son has one, all 9mm guns. They have been excellent in every respect. I have several thousand assorted rounds through each of mine with zero issues. I do keep mine pretty clean and well maintained. My son on the other hand has about three thousand rounds of everything he can find to shoot through his without cleaning the dang thing. I swear he would load up with lit cigarette butts if they would fire and not run so much as a wet patch through the bore or spit on the slide rails for lubrication. I don't know if he is doing that for some purpose or reason or simply because he knows it drives me crazy. His friend has an XD that must be a bad one because he has had several issues with it. Off the top of my head I can't recall the troubles but my son mentioned his friend was going to trade it off soon. Glock has had many problems over the years. I can recall one of John Farnam's classes in 1991 where all the Glocks had problems (but no problems with the 17...strangely there wasnt a 19 at that class). Every last one had functioning problems, many would not reliably set off a cartridge, and one G20 actually had the slide fall off and wouldn't go back on. I was real leary of Glock for the next decade. But i saw that Glock worked very hard to fix everything. Oh they still claimed perfection, and continued to claim there was nothing wrong, but most companies pull that crap. These days Glocks are consistently good right out of the box. They're not perfect by any means, but then nor is any other pistol. But you can close your eyes and blindly choose any Glock and be confident it will perform flawlessly. That's saying something.
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860 |
Another thing about M&P's. S&W has got the nitride thing nailed down. It works. An M&P has a nitrided STAINLESS STEEL slide. A Glock's slide is frickin' pot metal, once you cut through that Tenifer. Rumors abound about Glocks' new finish not being as good as it was....time will tell. You do realize that the M&P's had corrosion issues early on due to nitriding stainless and it took them a bit to get that figured out. As far as one steel being better than the other, one would have to know the particular alloys used, not just in generic terms such as "stainless steel" or "pot metal". No, I was not aware of any corrosion issues, and my statement about slide steels is based off of what gunsmiths have told me. Most will not do any machining to a Glock slide unless it goes back to the factory to be refinished. I am not a materials engineer, so I can't be more specific than that, I do know a few folks who know how to make [bleep] work, and I listen to them. If you'd like to prove me wrong about the Glock slide, just put yours in a mill and cut through the Tenifer, and have it Rockwelled.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
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I have personally had and have seen firsthand Glock 22's with parts breakages. Extractors, one ejector, front factory night sights coming loose and one with a badly bulged barrel. My experience with riding herd on a couple dozen department issued G22's actually soured me on the .40 S&W cartridge. Just don't care for it, figure I can do well enough with either the 9mm or the .45 ACP with fewer problems. With that said I did just buy a Glock 20 10mm for a woods bumming gun. Kinda hard to beat that easy carrying package of 16 rounds of 220 gr. hard cast at 1,250 fps in brushy hog country.
My plastic pistol of choice is the M&P. +1 Edit: A Glock is supposed to have its trigger spring changed every 5K rds. The extractor has a service interval as well but I don't recall. Recoil springs are like brake pads, change 'em. I've seen a bunch of bulged Glock brass on the ground and I know of one broken extractor. Just change it. Gee surprise, Glocks need maintenance; didn't see that one coming.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
Another thing about M&P's. S&W has got the nitride thing nailed down. It works. An M&P has a nitrided STAINLESS STEEL slide. A Glock's slide is frickin' pot metal, once you cut through that Tenifer. Rumors abound about Glocks' new finish not being as good as it was....time will tell. Pot metal??? Really?
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,654 |
I'm not wild about having to maintain tools, but understand that it is sometimes a necessary evil. But a pistol ought to be able to sit in a dry car trunk for ten days without this happening. ![[Linked Image]](http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z118/Bluedreaux/8ED4BB62-309B-4D5E-B1A4-F5929F04C663-551-0000007A5C68BF96_zps307c6374.jpg)
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
Another thing about M&P's. S&W has got the nitride thing nailed down. It works. An M&P has a nitrided STAINLESS STEEL slide. A Glock's slide is frickin' pot metal, once you cut through that Tenifer. Rumors abound about Glocks' new finish not being as good as it was....time will tell. You do realize that the M&P's had corrosion issues early on due to nitriding stainless and it took them a bit to get that figured out. As far as one steel being better than the other, one would have to know the particular alloys used, not just in generic terms such as "stainless steel" or "pot metal". No, I was not aware of any corrosion issues, and my statement about slide steels is based off of what gunsmiths have told me. Most will not do any machining to a Glock slide unless it goes back to the factory to be refinished. I am not a materials engineer, so I can't be more specific than that, I do know a few folks who know how to make [bleep] work, and I listen to them. If you'd like to prove me wrong about the Glock slide, just put yours in a mill and cut through the Tenifer, and have it Rockwelled. Really, think about what you're saying. I see the point you're trying to make...the new finish isnt as good as the old. But now you're saying the actual metallurgy is bad? Stop and think a minute; does that actually make sense to you?
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Joined: Sep 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2004
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Where is this "dry car trunk" you speak of?
Car trunks are like little greenhouses.
Something clever here.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
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I'm not wild about having to maintain tools, but understand that it is sometimes a necessary evil. But a pistol ought to be able to sit in a dry car trunk for ten days without this happening. Understand given the right circumstances most any black finish will do that. Spray on coatings are good until they wear off. Hard chrome is by far the most durable, wear resistant finish there is, but its silver. Electroless nickel is actually better, but under the right circumstances it will discolor. But if you want a gun black, you're going ti have to take the baggage that goes with it. Also, my understanding of nitrided finishes is that stainless doesn't hold it nearly as well as carbon steel.
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
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If you'd like to prove me wrong about the Glock slide, just put yours in a mill and cut through the Tenifer, and have it Rockwelled.
Really, think about what you're saying. I see the point you're trying to make...the new finish isnt as good as the old. But now you're saying the actual metallurgy is bad? Stop and think a minute; does that actually make sense to you? [/quote] Yes, it makes perfect sense. Glock's Tenifer is analogous to the carbeurizing/case hardening on early mausers, and it is why Glocks last. If the new finish isn't up to snuff, the new guns won't be 250K rd shooters like the old G17's
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
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Most shooters I know have a real problem with the tenifer being analogous.
I wish Glock would get their heads out of their ass and do something about it.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 851
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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No, I was not aware of any corrosion issues, and my statement about slide steels is based off of what gunsmiths have told me. Most will not do any machining to a Glock slide unless it goes back to the factory to be refinished. I am not a materials engineer, so I can't be more specific than that, I do know a few folks who know how to make [bleep] work, and I listen to them.
If you'd like to prove me wrong about the Glock slide, just put yours in a mill and cut through the Tenifer, and have it Rockwelled.
You made the statement about pot metal and yet you say you're not a materials engineer. Machining thru the Tenifer finish is hard on tooling as it's approximately HRC 65, and that is why not many will do it. As for knowing someone who knows somebody who knows someone's cousin who can make things work, it's easy to do on the net. Check out Hilton Yam's machining he has had done on his Glocks. I know, I know, not your hero Bill Rogers.
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Joined: May 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35,293
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 35,293 |
laughin!
(at "dryish" not at your rust, that sucks)
Something clever here.
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
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Yes, it makes perfect sense. Glock's Tenifer is analogous to the carbeurizing/case hardening on early mausers, and it is why Glocks last. If the new finish isn't up to snuff, the new guns won't be 250K rd shooters like the...
First, Mausers werent case hardened, Springfield's and Krag's were. And its clear you don't understand metal hardening. Case hardening is a surface treatment only a couple thou deep. If the entire slide were that hard, slides would crack. So while the surface hardening is nice, it has absolutely nothing to do with the strength of the slide. Optimally you want a hard outer treatment, but you want the core to be much softer. So hardening is done at around 1,500 degrees for about an hour, then oil quenched. Next the part is polished out and re-heated to somewhere in the neighborhood of 600-900 degrees for draw tempering (temps and times depend on the grade of steel). Case hardening all the way through will make the steel martensitic (loose, dense crystalline crystal structure that is very brittle). Drawing aligns the crystals and makes the steel flexible inside to resist cracking. All this is to say that doing an RC of the slide wont tell you squat about how long the slide will last. And harder doesn't necessarily better. The hardness has to be right for the design, too hard and it cracks, too soft and it cracks.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2008
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Of all the handguns that I have owned, the only ones that I own that have NEVER malfunctioned have been Glock (this includes revolvers). I have had to send two different 1911's back to the factory, two Smith revolvers, a BHP, etc. Over the course of literally tens of thousands of rounds in matches, training, and the field, the Glocks have always gone bang...every...single...time...without fail. There is a lot to be said for that.
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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All this is to say that doing an RC of the slide wont tell you squat about how long the slide will last. And harder doesn't necessarily better. The hardness has to be right for the design, too hard and it cracks, too soft and it cracks.
That ain't what I said Kevin. I didn't make a 100 on the Regent's Test in reading comprehension, but I did make a 98....reread what I typed.
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