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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005 |
I have reviewed a lot of officer involved shootings in the course of the last 10 years or so. 45 ACP, 40 SW, 9mm, 10mm, 38 Special, 44 Special, 44 Magnum, 357 Magnum. Every one of those calibers has failed to stop armed felons before the felons could do more harm. I've debriefed a bunch of cops and military personnel who have given me their stories freely, and the common denominator is shot placement.
Unless you put your handgun bullets into vital anatomy, they won't do any good. Police departments that train their officers in anatomically correct shot placement have found caliber isn't as important as they thought it was.
45 ACP is not the answer, nor is the 1911. I think the 45 is a great cartridge and it would be my choice if I were the guy choosing it. A modernized update of the 1911 single stack concept such as the SIG P220 would be a good choice, but so would others.
The answer lies in training, not in hardware. Our SF guys know this, as do a lot of the better PD's in America.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
They went to the nine because the 1911 .45 was too big for all the new female soldiers to hold or shoot well. They picked a pistol that was STILL too big for most females to hold properly, but did hurt less - on both ends.
Now they claim they want a cartridge that does more damage - and my bet is that they'll pick a pistol to fire it that is once again too fat for small hands.
If they pick a .40 S&W, the conspiracy crowd will bellow that the real reason is because every other goobermint agent from the FBI to FDA meat inspectors are armed to the teeth with .40s and a bazillion rounds of ammo. "One more step to a police state!"
(They may be right, you understand.) I don't know about the small hands thing in a 1911. We had a lady on the pistol team and she was no giant. She shot as well as any man maybe better sometimes. I have homunculus hands and the handgun that fits my hands the best is the 1911. If I can shoot a 1911 with my hands anybody can shoot a 1911. A handgun is for self defense, a battle rifle is for fighting, and a machine pistol is for close in fighting. A handgun is not for fighting as such.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,314 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,314 Likes: 2 |
I recall reading the article about the LEO that was in this gunfight......he did land eight hits on the bad guy, not sure how many were "incapacitating" or not.
The gist of the article was that he was down to a couple of rounds in his last mag when he finally stopped the BG.....he ended up switching to a Glock 17 I believe and carries over 100 rounds for it now. He wanted more ROH for extended confrontations.......
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,234
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,234 |
If a soldier can't carry a rifle for some reason, then I suppose he would want a harder hitting handgun.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,966
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,966 |
7 shot .357 Magnum S&W 686 I'm sure General Patton would agree....
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
If a soldier can't carry a rifle for some reason, then I suppose he would want a harder hitting handgun.
I would want a machine pistol instead or at least a M-1 carbine.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 19,504
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 19,504 |
I don't buy the Chicago cop shooting a guy 8 times with a 45 and Hyda-Shok, more like 7 misses and one hit. The 45 has a long track record of ending a fight right quick, the only thing is that you have to be able to shoot in the first place. An updated 1911 would be what I would look at. But this gets very very political, the last time they Adopted the Beretta, and from what I understood at the time, the Europeans bought more F-16's or said they would. It this current war, the rules really don't apply since the enemy is a stateless combatant, the last thing I would worry about is offending The guys in Geneva or The Hague! The object is to kill the enemy and not die ourselves. The story was posted in detail here a couple months ago. The fight was finally stopped by a head shot.
4 out of 5 Great Lakes prefer Michigan.
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
It will be:
Polymer, with a tactical rail, tritium sights, double-stack magazine, and .40S&W.
Frankly, it probably will be the Glock and should have been the Glock back in the '80s. If it had been then, the change-over to another caliber would be child's play and cheap now.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,387 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,387 Likes: 1 |
Hey, I got an idea!!
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery. Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,234
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,234 |
Frankly, it probably will be the Glock ... With a thumb safety and a magazine disconnect.
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,328
Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,328 |
I say just issue everyone SIG P220's and call it done.
There....saved millions of taxpayer dollars.
"If dogs don't go to heaven, when I die I want to go wherever they went." -Will Rogers
"If you have a lot of self control you don't need a lot of government control" - Thomas Sowell
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344 |
Jim;
I've heard more than once that those little carbines killed mo-better than they should have.
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
Hey, I got an idea!! It was a great idea especially the M-2 model. I used the M-1 version and it was great for what it was designed for.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,711 Likes: 18
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,711 Likes: 18 |
I say just issue everyone SIG P220's and call it done.
There....saved millions of taxpayer dollars. +1
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 716
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 716 |
They�re probably looking for any excuse to go to Glock�s because:
1. They�re on all the fashionable tv shows. 2. They�re taticool. 3. They will give the medics and corpsmen practice putting tourniquets on legs with bleeding femoral arteries that were shot on the firing line.
I know I�d be nervous standing next to Bubba/Snuffy Smith/gangbanger raw recruit on each side of me side-holding a pistol without a safety. I�ll believe the military really believes that�s a good idea when they remove the safety off the M4.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,736 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,736 Likes: 1 |
"I talked to a Chicago cop that shot a guy eight times with a .45 to kill him and that was a 230 grain Hydra-Shok," Langdon said. "And that guy now carries a 9mm �he realized that handgun bullets suck. "You have to shoot people a lot with a handgun."
Atta Baby,..8 shots with a .45 and moves to a 9mm for more ammo... I agree it's still handgun ammo. Shoot 8 times and still have 8 more in the mag. Works for me. There is no miracle bullet. Maybe they need to use HP's. I think that would help a lot.
NRA LIFE MEMBER GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS ESPECIALLY THE SNIPERS! "Suppose you were an idiot And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself." -Mark Twain
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 23,319
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 23,319 |
"I talked to a Chicago cop that shot a guy eight times with a .45 to kill him and that was a 230 grain Hydra-Shok," Langdon said. "And that guy now carries a 9mm �he realized that handgun bullets suck. "You have to shoot people a lot with a handgun."
Atta Baby,..8 shots with a .45 and moves to a 9mm for more ammo... I was going to comment on this as well. The most ignorant sentence in that entire piece. Who has ever argued a pistol round has more than marginal lethality. It is the weapon of last resort. The Browning 1911 is #1 for a reason.
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
They�re probably looking for any excuse to go to Glock�s because:
1. They�re on all the fashionable tv shows. 2. They�re taticool. 3. They will give the medics and corpsmen practice putting tourniquets on legs with bleeding femoral arteries that were shot on the firing line.
I know I�d be nervous standing next to Bubba/Snuffy Smith/gangbanger raw recruit on each side of me side-holding a pistol without a safety. I�ll believe the military really believes that�s a good idea when they remove the safety off the M4.
We don't agree on much but you are dead on on this one. I get nervous every time I see someone pull a Glock out of their range bag at the range.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,901
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,901 |
While I carried a .45 caliber 1911A1 when I was in the Army, I'd recommend the Army opt for a double-action semi-auto shooting a .45 ACP cartridge to replace their M-9 9x19s.
While the .45 ACP does have a heavier recoil which makes it slower t bring down for a 2nd. shot at the same target, it's also a one-shot-stopper, so you don't always need a 2nd. shot.
Just my 2�.........
Strength & Honor...
Ron T.
It's smart to hang around old guys 'cause they know lotsa stuff...
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,736
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,736 |
I am thinking that there will be no change in caliber. The girls and nancy boys that are filling the service rosters now can't shoot anything with power, and as was mentioned, NO handgun cartridge is really a stopper. I'm betting that they have been hoarding all the .22 LR ammo, with plans in mind to switch to that caliber.
Sam......
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