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I remember that case. It was discussed at length here, in fact.
He shouldn't have fired the coup de gr�ce shots, but one has trouble sympathizing with the thug he offed. Too bad there's no lesser offense for offing someone who just moments earlier tried to rob you at gunpoint. You'd think the doctrine of "heat of passion" would have come heavily into play, which would have reduced the charge to manslaughter. The jury might have thought his actions too deliberate to qualify for that. Were they even given the option?
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Campfire Kahuna
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Either you are an idiot or just stirring shytt. Which is it?
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
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May I? It is not a good idea to execute anybody...even if they tried to rob you earlier. . . . but it is OK to "execute" a man with a knife because he is stabbing your "dog?" Was the guy with the knife lying unconscious on the ground when he was shot? Trick question. I presume you know the answer.
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Campfire Regular
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People are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. You may believe so, if you wish, although you are not required to by law. The court must presume innocence until proof of guilt; i.e., the judge and the jury, but that is a legal formality. A man cannot be convicted until he's proven guilty. But innocent until proven guilty in a court of law? You can watch a man commit a crime and know he's guilty and even testify so at a trial, but if a jury then finds that he has not been proven guilty, despite your testimony, is he innocent? Spot on...i've never heard a Jury return an "innocent" decision I agree with you guys on this and I'm not sure how I got turned around on that point. ..
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Campfire Ranger
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[quote=safariman]Upon further reflection, I am seeing this in a different light. A man was killed. Dead forever with no chance of a new life, over a purely property crime. This should never occur.
If a person is stealing my stuff, no matter what stuff, no matter what stuff it is or how valuable, he will never see the business end of any of my weapons. Whether that weapon be a gun, knife or dog. All can cause injury, scarring and or death. If a dog is biting me, whether it be a pit bull, a poodle or a K-9, I am going to fight back with whatever I have on hand to make the biting and pain stop as soon as possible. This is a reaction that is so deeply ingrained into our DNA and sub-concieousness that to try to hold a person accountable for action during a large dog vs person encounter is beyond silly and wholly unreasonable.
The perp may have been a multi offending career criminal, but he did not deserve a death sentence. Nor should any person stabbing any dog be given a death sentence. A criminals live is a human life. A dog is a dog, no matter how noble or highly trained that dog might be, or how atached we might be to that dog.
Slightly outside the scope of this conversation, but very pertinent is this: If we begin to ascribe the right to life that we have to a dog, ANY dog or other animal, then the animal rights groups have great moral ground and standing, as well as CASE HISTORY then, with which to attack those of us who hunt. All that wouod then have to be established is the supposed nobility of this or that anumal, or someone's emotional atatchment to an animal or species and POOF! hunters are then classed as murderers and deserving of capitol punishment. In some cases imeediately and without trial by the person who ascribed nobility or emotional atatchment to said animal.
I do not think that any of us, and I am a dog lover with three of them, can afford to go down that road. We as a people and nation cannot go down that road.
It is sad that this fine dog died, truly. But the man who was stabbing it was acting in reasonable and expected self defense at that particular moment of time. The officer was not in danger as far as we know, and if this is the case (no imminent danger to the officer) he is in grave error here.
As I see it, if you use dogs as tools for apprehension, know that you unleashing an animal on a human being who might react -and reasonably so - in great fear and in a life or death defensive manner.
[/quot Whos to say if your wife stepped out he wouldn't be using the knife on her. Sounds like a job well done to me, one less pos walking this green earth. In that scenrio the end result would be the same for him, shot to death, but this time by a person (my sweet, petite and angelic looking wife who packs a lazer sight equipped full 9x19) who had a demonstrable, clear and reasonable suspicion that she was about to be injured and was in iminent danger. This is what we all do not know here. If the perp was on his back or stomach stabbing away in defense then this was a bad shoot. If he was upright and able to close distance between himself and the officer then that is a different story. But if, as many of us here suspect, this previously running perp or suspect was on the ground and only fighting for his safety and life then this cop is probably in big time hot water, and rightfully so. We have to wait for more details to come out on this, IF they are ever made available. All that said, I DO know and understand that the job of a police officer is difficult, we all have and get caught in our own emotions and human beings sometimes act in anger or emotion and do things which are all too easy to Monday morning Quarterbacked and torn asunder with more time to pick it apart than what the officer had on hand. Heck, even those of us who have hunted much have invariably pulled a trigger when we would have been wiser not to. The heat of a moment, anxiety and other emotions can take over. Unfortunately, we expect police officers to be calm, cool and perfectly rational at times when most human beings would not be able to keep everything in check. So, if it turns out that the shoot was not perfect, I hope that there is some leniency for that set of problems which are also real. I am not going to call this one way or the other, need more info, but wanted to bring to the table my concerns regarding giving TOO much weight and legal precedent to the killing of a dog, and the sub cranial realities that all of us harbor regarding defending ourselves against a creature that looks and acts a lot like the wolves of old who preyed on our ancestors for food.
Last edited by safariman; 08/28/14.
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
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May I? It is not a good idea to execute anybody...even if they tried to rob you earlier. . . . but it is OK to "execute" a man with a knife because he is stabbing your "dog?" Where is this imaginary guy doing the stabbing? In my house? In my yard? Time of day? Circumstances? Have I warned him to drop the knife? ETA: If he's in my house, it wouldn't matter what time of day & he wouldn't be warned to drop the knife...
Last edited by Middlefork_Miner; 08/28/14.
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Sorry, but you are wrong. The guy was being arrested for suspected robbery, had a knife in which he used to kill a police dog. Guess what, the dickhead doesn't do that and he still is alive today. Its squarely his fault, not the cops. Do stupid things and expect stupid results. Too many bad people around these days and I don't feel for any of them. Whos to say if your wife stepped out he wouldn't be using the knife on her. Sounds like a job well done to me, one less pos walking this green earth. GC, what is your take on this case of an OKC pharmacist who shot a young armed negro punk who tried to rob his establishment and was convicted of 1st degree murder, and received a life sentance? Former pharmacist Jerome Ersland loses appealThe Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals rejected former pharmacist's complaints about his murder trial but did order new trial for one of two felons accused of planning a drugstore robbery. by Nolan Clay Modified: June 20, 2013 at 10:10 pm � Published: June 20, 2013 Former pharmacist Jerome Jay Ersland has lost his first appeal of his murder conviction. The Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals on Thursday unanimously rejected all of his complaints. Ersland will appeal next to Oklahoma City federal court. Ersland, 61, is serving a life sentence for fatally shooting a teenage robber inside the Reliable Discount Pharmacy in south Oklahoma City on May 19, 2009. An Oklahoma County jury convicted him at a trial in 2011 of first-degree murder. �Well, I guess the only shot then is federal court,� his appeals attorney, Doug Friesen, said. �I�m surprised � I still believe in the stuff I put down there � I think it�s a significantly longer shot now, significantly.� The appeals court did reverse the first-degree murder conviction of one of the two longtime felons accused of planning the robbery. In a 3-2 opinion, the appeals court on Thursday ordered a new trial for Emanuel D. �E Man� Mitchell, 35, because he was not allowed to represent himself. In a separate opinion, the appeals court upheld the first-degree murder conviction of his cousin, Anthony D. �Black� Morrison, 47. The two men recruited Antwun �Speedy� Parker, 16, and Jevontai Ingram, then 14, to rob the drugstore, according to testimony at their trial. Morrison gave Ingram a gun and Mitchell waited outside in a stolen getaway car, according to the testimony. Inside the drugstore, Ersland shot Parker in the head, knocking Parker to the floor. Surveillance videos show he then chased after a fleeing Ingram, came back inside the drugstore, got a second gun and shot Parker five more times. The case sparked a national debate. Ersland claimed he was defending himself and two female co-workers, but prosecutors said he went too far. The appeals court found the evidence presented at trial was sufficient to support the murder conviction. �We conclude the physical and forensic evidence showed that, when Ersland returned to the pharmacy and shot Parker five times in the body, Parker was unarmed and unconscious but alive, and did not pose a threat to Ersland or anyone else in the pharmacy,� the judges wrote in the 39-page opinion. �Evidence further showed that, in order to shoot Parker, Ersland stepped across Parker�s body, turned his back, went behind the counter, put down his empty revolver, opened a drawer, took out the Kel Tec, walked to where Parker lay on the floor, stood over him, and fired five shots almost straight down into Parker�s body, close together and in rapid succession. Ersland did not appear flustered or hurried, and acted in a deliberative manner,� they wrote. Ersland�s chief complaint in his appeal was that his lead trial attorney, Irven Box, was inept and made mistakes that cost him a fair trial. The appeals court, though, wrote: �A painstaking review of the entire record shows that trial counsel zealously represented Ersland.� Its hard to say in any of these situations as we were not there. From the outside looking in, I don't give twoshits about the pos that was shot trying to rob the pharm. He got what he deserved. That said I'm also aware of law though and if he is posing no threat you cant execute him without consequence. I also fail to see how this compares to the original story.
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[quote=safariman]Upon further reflection, I am seeing this in a different light. A man was killed. Dead forever with no chance of a new life, over a purely property crime. This should never occur.
If a person is stealing my stuff, no matter what stuff, no matter what stuff it is or how valuable, he will never see the business end of any of my weapons. Whether that weapon be a gun, knife or dog. All can cause injury, scarring and or death. If a dog is biting me, whether it be a pit bull, a poodle or a K-9, I am going to fight back with whatever I have on hand to make the biting and pain stop as soon as possible. This is a reaction that is so deeply ingrained into our DNA and sub-concieousness that to try to hold a person accountable for action during a large dog vs person encounter is beyond silly and wholly unreasonable.
The perp may have been a multi offending career criminal, but he did not deserve a death sentence. Nor should any person stabbing any dog be given a death sentence. A criminals live is a human life. A dog is a dog, no matter how noble or highly trained that dog might be, or how atached we might be to that dog.
Slightly outside the scope of this conversation, but very pertinent is this: If we begin to ascribe the right to life that we have to a dog, ANY dog or other animal, then the animal rights groups have great moral ground and standing, as well as CASE HISTORY then, with which to attack those of us who hunt. All that wouod then have to be established is the supposed nobility of this or that anumal, or someone's emotional atatchment to an animal or species and POOF! hunters are then classed as murderers and deserving of capitol punishment. In some cases imeediately and without trial by the person who ascribed nobility or emotional atatchment to said animal.
I do not think that any of us, and I am a dog lover with three of them, can afford to go down that road. We as a people and nation cannot go down that road.
It is sad that this fine dog died, truly. But the man who was stabbing it was acting in reasonable and expected self defense at that particular moment of time. The officer was not in danger as far as we know, and if this is the case (no imminent danger to the officer) he is in grave error here.
As I see it, if you use dogs as tools for apprehension, know that you unleashing an animal on a human being who might react -and reasonably so - in great fear and in a life or death defensive manner.
[/quot Whos to say if your wife stepped out he wouldn't be using the knife on her. Sounds like a job well done to me, one less pos walking this green earth. In that scenrio the end result would be the same for him, shot to death, but this time by a person (my sweet, petite and angelic looking wife who packs a lazer sight equipped full 9x19) who had a demonstrable, clear and reasonable suspicion that she was about to be injured and was in iminent danger. This is what we all do not know here. If the perp was on his back or stomach stabbing away in defense then this was a bad shoot. If he was upright and able to close distance between himself and the officer then that is a different story. But if, as many of us here suspect, this previously running perp or suspect was on the ground and only fighting for his safety and life then this cop is probably in big time hot water, and rightfully so. We have to wait for more details to come out on this, IF they are ever made available. All that said, I DO know and understand that the job of a police officer is difficult, we all have and get caught in our own emotions and human beings sometimes act in anger or emotion and do things which are all too easy to Monday morning Quarterbacked and torn asunder with more time to pick it apart than what the officer had on hand. Heck, even those of us who have hunted much have invariably pulled a trigger when we would have been wiser not to. The heat of a moment, anxiety and other emotions can take over. Unfortunately, we expect police officers to be calm, cool and perfectly rational at times when most human beings would not be able to keep everything in check. So, if it turns out that the shoot was not perfect, I hope that there is some leniency for that set of problems which are also real. I am not going to call this one way or the other, need more info, but wanted to bring to the table my concerns regarding giving TOO much weight and legal precedent to the killing of a dog, and the sub cranial realities that all of us harbor regarding defending ourselves against a creature that looks and acts a lot like the wolves of old who preyed on our ancestors for food. Ok I agree with most of that. Well said.
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Campfire Kahuna
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This is what we all do not know here. If the perp was on his back or stomach stabbing away in defense then this was a bad shoot. If he was upright and able to close distance between himself and the officer then that is a different story. But if, as many of us here suspect, this previously running perp or suspect was on the ground and only fighting for his safety and life then this cop is probably in big time hot water, and rightfully so. ...looks like "many here" are having some sorta' conniption fit / anxiety attack / or nervous breakdown,...posting about these stupid, and totally chitty "Suspicions". "Suspicions" founded in WHAT !? You find yourself at close quarters, in a dark place, with a CAR JACKER wielding a bloody knife,... OOOOooooo, I know,...we'll call Ann Landers, or Miss Manners for Legal advice. Lotta crazy, and really STUPID crap being posted about this event. GTC
Last edited by crossfireoops; 08/28/14.
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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This is what we all do not know here. If the perp was on his back or stomach stabbing away in defense then this was a bad shoot. If he was upright and able to close distance between himself and the officer then that is a different story. But if, as many of us here suspect, this previously running perp or suspect was on the ground and only fighting for his safety and life then this cop is probably in big time hot water, and rightfully so. ...looks like "many here" are having some sorta' conniption fit / anxiety attack / or nervous breakdown,...posting about these stupid, and totally chitty "Suspicions". "Suspicions" founded in WHAT !? You find yourself at close quarters, in a dark place, with a CAR JACKER wielding a bloody knife,... OOOOooooo, I know,...we'll call Ann Landers, or Miss Manners for Legal advice. Lotta crazy, and really STUPID crap being posted about this event. GTC Yup
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Campfire Kahuna
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A criminals live is a human life. Right, on case by individual case basis. "Knock Out" game players are "criminal lives" ....are you hosting a pity party for THEM when a NORMAL American blows their chit away,....e.g. "Executes" them. You're preaching to a pretty jaded crowd, Bub. GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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If someone is taking hard swings at innocent people, a reasona ble person would surmise that those innocent people are in harms way and the counter force factor goes up both legally and morally.
I might (probably would) let someone take one sucker punch shot at me and not retaliate. Take that shot at my wife or an elderly person and I will make you bleed and hurt more, by whatever means is neccesary. Most state's laws, last time I took any courses on such, recognize the legitimacy of such.
MiddleforkMiner,
I do not disagree with what you highlighted, but my main point was that we do not know many things about this incident. Certainly not enough to fully Monday morning Quarterback this cop. But I stand by my statement that if the perp was defensless on the ground save for his knife and could not likely close the distance between himself and the officer than the officer made a bad choice, albeit in a heated and tense moment full of emotions and such.
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
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Campfire Ranger
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[quote=safariman]Upon further reflection, I am seeing this in a different light. A man was killed. Dead forever with no chance of a new life, over a purely property crime. This should never occur.
If a person is stealing my stuff, no matter what stuff, no matter what stuff it is or how valuable, he will never see the business end of any of my weapons. Whether that weapon be a gun, knife or dog. All can cause injury, scarring and or death. If a dog is biting me, whether it be a pit bull, a poodle or a K-9, I am going to fight back with whatever I have on hand to make the biting and pain stop as soon as possible. This is a reaction that is so deeply ingrained into our DNA and sub-concieousness that to try to hold a person accountable for action during a large dog vs person encounter is beyond silly and wholly unreasonable.
The perp may have been a multi offending career criminal, but he did not deserve a death sentence. Nor should any person stabbing any dog be given a death sentence. A criminals live is a human life. A dog is a dog, no matter how noble or highly trained that dog might be, or how atached we might be to that dog.
Slightly outside the scope of this conversation, but very pertinent is this: If we begin to ascribe the right to life that we have to a dog, ANY dog or other animal, then the animal rights groups have great moral ground and standing, as well as CASE HISTORY then, with which to attack those of us who hunt. All that wouod then have to be established is the supposed nobility of this or that anumal, or someone's emotional atatchment to an animal or species and POOF! hunters are then classed as murderers and deserving of capitol punishment. In some cases imeediately and without trial by the person who ascribed nobility or emotional atatchment to said animal.
I do not think that any of us, and I am a dog lover with three of them, can afford to go down that road. We as a people and nation cannot go down that road.
It is sad that this fine dog died, truly. But the man who was stabbing it was acting in reasonable and expected self defense at that particular moment of time. The officer was not in danger as far as we know, and if this is the case (no imminent danger to the officer) he is in grave error here.
As I see it, if you use dogs as tools for apprehension, know that you unleashing an animal on a human being who might react -and reasonably so - in great fear and in a life or death defensive manner.
[/quot Whos to say if your wife stepped out he wouldn't be using the knife on her. Sounds like a job well done to me, one less pos walking this green earth. In that scenrio the end result would be the same for him, shot to death, but this time by a person (my sweet, petite and angelic looking wife who packs a lazer sight equipped full 9x19) who had a demonstrable, clear and reasonable suspicion that she was about to be injured and was in iminent danger. This is what we all do not know here. If the perp was on his back or stomach stabbing away in defense then this was a bad shoot. If he was upright and able to close distance between himself and the officer then that is a different story. But if, as many of us here suspect, this previously running perp or suspect was on the ground and only fighting for his safety and life then this cop is probably in big time hot water, and rightfully so. We have to wait for more details to come out on this, IF they are ever made available. All that said, I DO know and understand that the job of a police officer is difficult, we all have and get caught in our own emotions and human beings sometimes act in anger or emotion and do things which are all too easy to Monday morning Quarterbacked and torn asunder with more time to pick it apart than what the officer had on hand. Heck, even those of us who have hunted much have invariably pulled a trigger when we would have been wiser not to. The heat of a moment, anxiety and other emotions can take over. Unfortunately, we expect police officers to be calm, cool and perfectly rational at times when most human beings would not be able to keep everything in check. So, if it turns out that the shoot was not perfect, I hope that there is some leniency for that set of problems which are also real. I am not going to call this one way or the other, need more info, but wanted to bring to the table my concerns regarding giving TOO much weight and legal precedent to the killing of a dog, and the sub cranial realities that all of us harbor regarding defending ourselves against a creature that looks and acts a lot like the wolves of old who preyed on our ancestors for food. Ok I agree with most of that. Well said. Thank you. I think that most of us agree that 1) more info is needed to make a call on this and 2) We cannot allow a police officer or court give the same legal standing and protection to a dog as to a human. I THINK that most of us agree that if the fleeing suspect was defensless other than trying to fight off a dog at the time of the shooting, the officer used poor judgement. Though anyone judging him needs to weigh the emotions and drama of the moment in balance.
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
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Either you are an idiot or just stirring shytt. Which is it? Is both an option?
"I Birn Quhil I Se" MacLeod of Lewis
I Burn While I See
Hold Fast MacLeod of Harris
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MiddleforkMiner,
I do not disagree with what you highlighted, but my main point was that we do not know many things about this incident. Certainly not enough to fully Monday morning Quarterback this cop. But I stand by my statement that if the perp was defensless on the ground save for his knife and could not likely close the distance between himself and the officer than the officer made a bad choice, albeit in a heated and tense moment full of emotions and such.
Mark It was a post I quoted...I didn't highlight it. I agree about the monday morning quarterback issue, but I don't share your compassion for people exhibiting the type of behavior that led to this guy getting killed...IMHO, the guys own stupidity is what got him killed.
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More than a little ridiculous . . . IMO![[Linked Image]](http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/oklahoman_gallery-86c58d8264b356908c9c2de3478d57ae.jpg) Oklahoma City Police K-9 officer Sgt. Darren Heath and "Eli" salute the casket during a funeral service for Kye, a 3-year-old German shepherd at First Southern Baptist Church in Oklahoma City, Thursday August 28, 2014. Kye was stabbed multiple times by a man who ran from police on Sunday after a police chase. Photo By Steve Gooch, The Oklahoman ![[Linked Image]](http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/606x404-2a9517a7e0b00d1b388525549e4eb9d8.jpg) Chief Bill Citty during a funeral service for Kye,Stark's 3-year-old German shepherd at First Southern Baptist Church in Oklahoma City, Thursday August 28, 2014. ![[Linked Image]](http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/606x404-f742734a68ef66dd3aa35293f9e48a30.jpg) Honor Guard fold the flag during a funeral service for Kye, a 3-year-old German shepherd at First Southern Baptist Church in Oklahoma City, Thursday August 28, 2014. ![[Linked Image]](http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/606x404-aed21c4b0990b0ac8f5ace01273bb765.jpg) Oklahoma City Police K-9 officers carry the casket during a funeral service for Kye, a 3-year-old German shepherd at First Southern Baptist Church in Oklahoma City, Thursday August 28, 2014. Wonder where they are going to bury him? ![[Linked Image]](http://res.cloudinary.com/hwthvxm3h/image/upload/06_Presidio_Pet_Cemetery_640.jpg.jpg)
"All that the South has ever desired was that the Union, as established by our forefathers, should be preserved, and that the government, as originally organized, should be administered in purity and truth." – Robert E. Lee
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Wonder where they are going to bury him?
Like you'd give a fu(k... I used to think you were a pretty decent guy, I guess I just didn't read enough of your posts.
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Well you are in the (NON) Hunters Campfire section
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Campfire Regular
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More than a little ridiculous . . . IMOOklahoma City Police K-9 officer Sgt. Darren Heath and "Eli" salute the casket during a funeral service for Kye, a 3-year-old German shepherd at First Southern Baptist Church in Oklahoma City, Thursday August 28, 2014. Kye was stabbed multiple times by a man who ran from police on Sunday after a police chase. Photo By Steve Gooch, The Oklahoman Chief Bill Citty during a funeral service for Kye,Stark's 3-year-old German shepherd at First Southern Baptist Church in Oklahoma City, Thursday August 28, 2014. Honor Guard fold the flag during a funeral service for Kye, a 3-year-old German shepherd at First Southern Baptist Church in Oklahoma City, Thursday August 28, 2014. Oklahoma City Police K-9 officers carry the casket during a funeral service for Kye, a 3-year-old German shepherd at First Southern Baptist Church in Oklahoma City, Thursday August 28, 2014. Wonder where they are going to bury him? Thank you Okie. That's a wonderful tribute to a dog who deserved it. The dog did exactly what he was trained to do.
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MiddleforkMiner,
I do not disagree with what you highlighted, but my main point was that we do not know many things about this incident. Certainly not enough to fully Monday morning Quarterback this cop. But I stand by my statement that if the perp was defensless on the ground save for his knife and could not likely close the distance between himself and the officer than the officer made a bad choice, albeit in a heated and tense moment full of emotions and such.
Mark It was a post I quoted...I didn't highlight it. I agree about the monday morning quarterback issue, but I don't share your compassion for people exhibiting the type of behavior that led to this guy getting killed...IMHO, the guys own stupidity is what got him killed. You are quite right that not just one, but a series of very bad decisions was made by this suspect. 1) to rob anyone or anybody 2) to run with the car while being pursued 3) to get out and run when there were many officers in close proximity with the liklihood of at least one being a K-9 unit. Many have died for far fewer bad decisions made in one evening. My only 'bone to pick' (REALLY bad pun there) was that if the suspect was not demonstrably a direct threat to that officer or another, and by this I mean a human officer, then deadly force was not called for. The suspects life at that moment was of immeasurably more value than that of any dog, K-9 or other. We need to see what the other officers saw RE the suspects ability to actually press a charge or threat to an officer at the time he was shot. Only then can a judgement be fairly rendered. You and I both have and love our dogs, but not for one minute would I choose the life of any of my dogs over any human life, even if that life was the current most wanted man in the USA.
LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.
About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
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