Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .470 Turnbull

Gentlemen; I had enquired a while back about the .375 H&H rifles I was considering purchasing should I be able to conclude a certain price of business which would allow me to head off for cape buffalo in 2016. My rational was that it would have more versatility than a .416 before and after the cape buffalo hunt.

I have had a marlin guide gun for over a decade and really like having a "large" lever gun. Converting the rifle to .470 Turnbull would give me a bigger bullet for cape buffalo and fill my ongoing " need" of a large lever gun.

Are the ballistics of the .470 Turnbull suitable for Cape Buffalo? Below are from Turnbull's website.
400 g at 1850 fps, 450 g at 1725 fps

Thanks again

GRF

Garret cartridges manufacture several 45-70 loads that meet or exceed the Turnbull ballistics.
link;
http://garrettcartridges.com/4570exitertech.html

Generally speaking, I think you will find that most folks will say you need 500 grs. at 2,150 to 2,400 fps.

Thanks for the input gentlemen

Use the right bullet and 470 Turnbull will certainly work.

Do what you had planned and buy the 375.

You're welcome.

If you want to use the .470 TB, do it. Just make sure your PH is OK with it and use North Fork Cup Point Solids or Flat Point Solids. Both of those come in 500 gr. If you ask John he might make you some 450 gr.

Shot placement is everything.

Use your Guide Gun with the Garrett ammunition and don't look back. Your 45-70 with that ammo will out penetrate the 470.

I believe its Nosler's reloading book #6; one of the writers took his GG to Africa. The PH had some reservations about it until he saw how it performed. The writer finally got a chance at a dugga boy, and he fired at the front shoulder. The animal took off, toward the thick bush, but our writer had time to get 2 more into him. I believe the second one was a little far back, and the 3rd was just before he got into some more dangerous territory for a follow up, so a shot at the hip was taken to slow him down, as well as that was all that was visible before he disappeared.

The tracker went to survey the area, and calls "Two buffalo down!" The first shot went through both shoulders of a big bull, and entered a cow that was perfectly hidden just behind him, going through her broadside (can't remember whether a shoulder was hit) and killing her. The bullet was recovered just underneath the hide on the offside of the cow!

I don't think he gave the specific load data, but I'm pretty sure it was a 405 gr. at probably a little over 1900 fps.

It'll work.

Tactical Lever;
Welcome to the 'Fire from across the tall hills to the west of you sir.

The writer in question is Brian Pearce and if I recall right the original article he wrote about the hunt was published in a Wolfe magazine - Rifle, Handloader or Successful Hunter - but can't recall just which now.

Though he has/had Winchester/Browning '86 rifles in .45-70, I want to say it was a Marlin that he took to Africa, whether a Guide Gun or not though escapes me right now - sorry.

The bullets might have been hard cast lead too???

Anyway if I run into either the original article or more memory somewhere I'll post it up here.

Again welcome to the 'Fire and all the best to you on your hunts this fall.

Dwayne

I believe the bullet that Brain used was a jacketed solid if memory serves. In the old days a lot of Cape buffalo were taken cleanly with a 405 Winchester with 300 grain bullets.

Brian used a hard cast bullet on the buffalo.

He took a Marlin .45/70 and a Pre '64 M 70 .300 H&H.

yeah but no one really considered it ideal, hell Roosevelt who was a Winchester slut quickly regulated his 405 to lion duty due to the piss poor performance of a 300 grain 405 load as far as penetration....

Imagine what one could do today if bullets had changed in the past 100 years...

well except for the big stuff it really hasnt....when we are talking the 45-70, 405 ect we are talking solids for the most part just like we were 100 years ago...

Osa Johnson used a 405 Winchester to kill 2 or 3 Cape buffalo and turned the heard as she protected her husband as he filmed the charge.

I ain't talking solids

and Wally Johnson used a Winchester 94 in 30-30 for lions for years....just cause it can work does not mean its the best tool for the job....

Thanks again gentlemen.

Tactical Lever; welcome, from "just down the road"

GRF

This advice is baloney.

A .375 at 2500 fps is plenty as is a 450 grain from a .458 at 2200 fps. I once broke a buff's front shoulder with a Texas heart shot from the latter load.

Three caveats: (1) Make sure your PH approves of the Turnbull before you go over and (2) you want a stiff soft point for the first shot, solids for the follow-on shots. (3) Some countries, like Zimbabwe, have minimum energy requirements. Make sure the Turnbull qualifies. I suspect it does.

Flat point solids are best but make sure the lever gun will feed them. Some Model 70s will not.

The biggest disadvantage of a lever gun for buffalo is that it probably does not wear a scope. Nowadays you need a scope to pick out vital parts of the buff in the bush. See Boddington's book. He says you're at a 40% disadvantage with any iron sights.

Personally I think the .375 is a better choice because you will see other game, some of it at relatively long range, while trailing buffs. A shot 500 yards away from buffs does not seem to spook them.

Thank you for the warm welcome.

I got the story a little mixed up, but it was done with a Marlin 45-70 (as the guys say). Pretty sure it was the Guide Gun version. You are correct on the author. The bullet did pass through 4 shoulders(!) and was recovered under the offside skin.

The short version (I think) was found in Nosler #6. Unlikely that the Noslers were used, as all they seem to have is a not too hard RNSP in 300 gr.

I tend to believe the other fellow that is saying it was a cast 405. A good alloyed FN is pretty much the best monolithic for the job....

You have a great season, too.

I see we have a couple things in common...

The Marlins certainly are capably of taking optics, if one wishes.

Thanks! From just up the road... 5 or so hours IIRC. Crazy thing is a couple guys drive up here to work!

Well it might not be a 45-70, but it is certainly nothing in which to stick the incautious finger! A cape buffalo is one of the few animals where the penetration might fall on the short side. Maybe. And that can be improved with a 350 gr. bullet.

I believe Roosevelt relegated his .405 for his favourite lion cartridge. Not to mean it was barely adequate for anything tougher.

im a full blown Africa nut as anyone thats talked books with me knows, ive got around 100 volumes on hunting in Africa on the shelves.....im not one to pick and choose guys that made my point....if i look over my collection as a whole, with the exception of guys like Baker and Selous who bridged the blackpowder/smokeless eras most anyone that spent any real time hunting over there did not go from larger calibers to smaller....just about everyone that started with lighter or rounds like the 405 decided to go heavier, more often than not cause they had some critter put holes in their hide....

i have no doubt that most of the time a 45-70 with heavy loads or a 405 Win with the right bullets will do you well, especially if you throat that 405 to seat out 400 grain bullets...hell i wouldnt hesitate if offered to hunt with them but the fact is they are on the low end of adequate for critters that will kill you if given the chance.....and they would not be my choice if i was facing these critters without backup...

well other than i always thought for someone used to a lever gun a Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 stoked with warm 300 grain hollow points might make a damn effective gun for following up leopard....

Most guys put scopes on their Marlins. I know I can't use irons worth crap.

I like the idea of a fast handling lever for dangerous game. Always wanted to go after something really big with mine.

If it works then it works pure and simple.

I would have no qualms (well maybe, just the usual ones) about going after heavy game with a hot loaded 45-70. There are calibers that offer more foot pounds, more momentum, more diameter, and heavier bullets. Not a whole lot of them can offer the speed of handling and follow up shots though. Not to mention topping up the mag without dropping or opening anything.

You'll have to refresh my memory; did Karamojo Bell switch to a heavy gun? Of course he killed more heavy game before getting his pants on than most of us will in a lifetime.

For a leopard that's a heavy gun. If I was going to follow one up, I think I would want something I could shoot even quicker, or a buckshot load.

if you actually read very much on African hunting it aint that simple, hence the reason most toss the small stuff for larger if they do it long enough, eventually just good enough gets you in the hospital if your lucky or the grave if you aint....

yeah bell went somewhat heavier but how he hunted elephant also changed.....a large part of the reason he used light rifles was how he hunted which is alot different than how its done today or even towards the end of his career....

like i said in a normal modern safari i wouldnt mind hunting with a hot loaded 45-70 if it was handed to me, but its not the gun i would choose if i was to swap places with the PH and my job became body guard over hunter.....

IndyCA35,

My apologies for expecting anyone to read between the lines in my first post. It should be noted that I said "Generally speaking, I think you will find that most folks will say you need 500 grs. at 2,150 to 2,400 fps".

I was expecting this the go the way of The-.45/70-Doesn't-Belong-In-Africa argument, regardless of the success experienced by some who chose to use the .45/70 in Africa.

The quote below in my second post is my opinion and reflects your first caveat as well as your recommendation of FP bullets.


You might also want to read Pierre van der Walt's thoughts on iron verses optics. While he does concede that optics are useful, especially with aging eyes and first shot placement, he makes a compelling argument for iron sights and dangerous game considering the range most DG is taken.

I only have one buffalo hunt under my belt so the following is only from my perspective based on extremely limited experience.

Regarding the use of a scoped rifle and taking other game while hunting buffalo, no other game was even considered so long as buffalo were in sight regardless of range. To forgo buffalo for any other game never came to mind so the use of a scoped rifle was never an issue.

For a one gun safari, the scoped .375 may be considered by some as ideal, but the OP was about whether a .470 Turnbull was adequate for buffalo, and in my opinion it is. Prior to the acquisition of the rifle I took to Africa, my choice was an 1895 Marlin in .45/70, and it will probably go along next time.

By the way, my first shot on buffalo was with a solid and it worked splendidly, against all recommendations. If I had it all to do over again, would I use a solid first? You bet, but not just any solid.

Sharpsguy,

I have read your posts in the past and respect you. As I understand you put a lot of time and effort in shooting. IIRC you hunted Africa with iron sites and took animals at something like 500 yards, impressive.

This is one time I have to diagree with you. I performed quite a bit of testing similar to Garret's. I was very methodical and tried to be as consistant as possible.

I also read Garret's test and my results were quite a bit different.

With a 458 Lott I was shooting through 72" of wet newsprint and 3 two by sixes. The bullets were exiting.

With my 470 I was shooting through 72" of wet newsprint and the bullet would stop in the second two by six.

These test were performed with North Fork FN solids.

I also shot reduced loads with different bullets in the 470. IIRC the velocity went as low as 1600 FPS. Penetration was less on the lower velocities.

A video from one of the tests.

[img]http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q135/Mike70560/th_M4H011532.mp4[/img]

IMO the 470 Turnbull is adequate, as is the 45-70, however I feel there are much better choices. If you like the lever gun have you considered the 475 Turnbull?

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence as to which round is better or even adequate. Hunt with what makes you happy, you are paying the ticket.

I have shot nine buffalo with no backup shots using a .375 H&H, 416 Rem. and 470 Nitro. Two DRT with the 470, and the one that required the most shots was also with the 470. All worked fine, as I am sure many other rounds would have.

Mike70560,

Thanks for posting your test results. Interesting video as well.

John Linebaugh used to do similar penetration tests during his seminars, the results of which can be seen in the Linebaugh Test Results. He used the same media, although a bit different setup as there were no boards, but large bovine bone set behind the first 6-8" of the soaked news print in some of the tests.

It is interesting to note some handgun loads penetrated more than some rifles.

According to Turnbull's website the .475 does not fit well n the Marlin action.

GRF,

If you like the Marlin and want to use it for Cape buffalo, send it off and have it converted. If you don't, you will always regret it and will most likely have it done in the future anyway.

I'm way too close to 60 and have to wear glasses. I shot buffalo, warthog, blue wildebeest, zebra, and baboon all with open sights without a problem. Bow hunters routinely take African game at close range. But with a Marlin, adding optics isn't an issue.

If you are going to Africa to experience Africa, have the best time of your life, and fulfill the dream of a lifetime, take the .470 TB. If you are going with a list of animals you have to take and that is your main goal, use something else with a bolt and scope.

Is the .470 TB an ideal buffalo round? No. Will it kill a buffalo? Yes.

The best reason to use a .470 TB on buffalo is because you want to use one on buffalo.

I have one of the Ruger #1's in .475:



A few folks got to shoot it at our Quemado gathering, and no one seemed disabled by the gun.

Here's a thread on it:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9163293#Post9163293

Pat,

How did you manage to catch the cat licking it's chops while staring at your rifle? Looks a bit odd.

Got to shoot that once and wish I had shot it some more. Dang accurate. Trigger pull was a bit surprising, but it should be.

pure dumb luck; she has a knack for making ridiculous faces with a camera around.

After I work up the heavies, I'll see about some cast bullet loads, including the ones you kindly gave me. Although it can approach a .470 Nitro in power I suspect long term I'll run lighter loads in it. I have some 275gr Speers that were intended for the .480 Ruger. I imagine they could make ludicrous speed out of the #1

Good answer. Why does anyone pick any rifle, or cartridge. 90% of the time, its just cause it floats yer' boat.

I do have a question on the custom chambered levers, though. What are they designed to handle, pressure wise? And why is a the .470 appear to come in under the capability of a 45-70 with a stiff handload, when it has a greater surface area in the base of the bullet to push against? Is the hoop area thinned out too much to handle the pressures that would be acceptable in 45-70?

I would think not, as the .50 Alaskan seems to be a step up on the power scale.

That wouldn't be a Pavlovian response to that rifle shooting pest/snacks for your kitty would it?

I think that the 275 gr. might be kind of wild for that!

Yeah, I'm betting a revolver bullet at 3000 fps would thoroughly tenderize snacks for her Though she never really eats anything but kibbles. The one time she & her housemate caught a lizard, they seemed content to play with it.

If it works then it works pure and simple.
[/quote]

if you actually read very much on African hunting it aint that simple, hence the reason most toss the small stuff for larger if they do it long enough, eventually just good enough gets you in the hospital if your lucky or the grave if you aint.... [/quote]


I have read a ton and yes it is that simple. I have also killed a hell ova lot of game and if the correct bullet is used that penetrates through the vitals then critters die. It really is that simple. A bad bullet in a 458 Lott creates major problems but a good bullet in say a 405 win works. As long as the bullets is placed correctly but that goes for any and all cartridges.

JWP, I know where you are from and you expect me to believe you can read a book.

You are absolutely correct about the bullets. I can make a 45-70 out penetrate a Lott easily and vice versa. I still like bigger, especially on elephant. Shot placement and bullets!!!

if you actually read very much on African hunting it aint that simple, hence the reason most toss the small stuff for larger if they do it long enough, eventually just good enough gets you in the hospital if your lucky or the grave if you aint.... [/quote]


I have read a ton and yes it is that simple. I have also killed a hell ova lot of game and if the correct bullet is used that penetrates through the vitals then critters die. It really is that simple. A bad bullet in a 458 Lott creates major problems but a good bullet in say a 405 win works. As long as the bullets is placed correctly but that goes for any and all cartridges.

[/quote]

how much of the game is the kind that bites back? there is a difference....fair number of people out there dead or with holes in their hide cause their just good enough chambering took a few seconds to long to kill a critter, especially those chasing lions and elephant....difference between a lion dieing now and succumbing 20 seconds from now from the shot can mean a long hospital stay if your lucky, a funeral if your not....

like i said what im willing to use with a PH backing me up is alot different than if i was in the PH's shoes.....there are times when just good enough really isnt

JD Jones killed many a buffalo, both Cape and the Aussie versions with his .375 JDJ "hand canon". He told me he got about 1900 fps out of a 270 solid and 24" of penetration in an elephant skull was not a problem. Broadside shots on Cape buffalo and Aussie banteng penetrated completely.

So a 400 grain solid at 1800 fps or so will certainly kill a Cape buffalo. I killed a Cape buffalo with a 9.3 JDJ shooting a 270 grain Barnes X. Worked just fine. One shot kill. After the fact, I consider it a stunt and caution others from pulling stunts on dangerous game. Hunting Cape buffalo with a bow is a stunt. I shot a NW Red buffalo in Cameroon with a .45WM out of a carbine. 240 monolithic flat point penetrated fine and did the job. That is a stunt. It was fun, but if anything went wrong, I'd have wanted my .450/400 in my hand.

If your PH will agree to let you hunt with the Turnbull, and you are itching to try it, go ahead, but know it is a stunt and a .375 H&H is a better choice..

Experience speaks volumes. Spot on...

Oh a few would bite back the bear and moose on the left I shot with a revolver hit them both well and they both hit the ground. Not that difficult.

one of the books you might want to read is 'Hunting the Dangerous Game of Africa' by John Kingsley-Heath, in it he has a list of British hunters through the 1970's i believe, maybe the early 80's that went after lion with chamberings 'just good enough' and didnt make it cause of failing to stop the animal with a hit that wasnt perfect....in some of the cases the lion expired within seconds of killing the person....

one of the books you might want to read is 'Hunting the Dangerous Game of Africa' by John Kingsley-Heath, in it he has a list of British hunters through the 1970's i believe, maybe the early 80's that went after lion with chamberings 'just good enough' and didnt make it cause of failing to stop the animal with a hit that wasnt perfect....in some of the cases the lion expired within seconds of killing the person....

Of course you ignore the hunters that didn't make that choose so called acceptable chamberings because their hits were not perfect. Again a quality bullet that is placed properly penetrating through the vitals equals dead.

and if you have hunted as much as you say you should realize chit doesnt go perfect every time, which is why nearly everyone thats been over there long term eventually went heavier, not lighter....perfection does not exist outside of small sample sizes...if you have a PH backing you up you have just that back up if chit goes squirrelly but if your the PH you sure in the hell dont want something just adiquate for those times it does....

and perfectly hit does not mean dead right now when you are talking critters like cape buffalo....once their adrenalin is up even with destroyed hearts they can and have caused serious damage before finally dropping.....

and before you say just make sure your first shot is perfect on unmolested animals which im sure is gonna be your next post, in the last couple years atleast two different PH's have been killed by buff coming out of nowhere taken out by buff that were wounded by poachers or lions that had their adrenalin up before anyone knew they were there....

Rattler I have hunted my entire life and I am now 63 years old I know exactly it goes and have learned through much experience. Go sell this crap to some one else.

im guessing i havent shot as many critters as you, but even i have seen odd chit, ive blown out a mule deers doe heart witha gun shooting 1 grain of bullet weight per pound of critter at a couple hundred under 3000fps stand around for 30 seconds like nothing happened....when i cut her open her chest cavity was chunky soup....take that up to a 1500 pound critter and shooting alot less than 1 grain per pound of critter weight...a cape can do alot in that 30 seconds and there are plenty of times they have....if you say other wise you aint as well read on Africa as you say.....


no where have i said that these rounds will not kill critters and do so cleanly, but swap places and you are no longer the hunter with backup, you are the backup and they no longer make sense.......far more PH's agree with me than you.....

Is there anything else you're book learned on that you would like to educate the fire on rattler?

beats just making chit up like some do.....jwp has formed his opinion from a couple books on Africa, ive formed mine on closer to 100 books on Africa and chatting with people that have shot a hell of alot more game over there than me....hell hatari said the same thing as me and he has BTDT....

So jwp's opinions as stated on here are based on a couple books on Africa, got it.

And since you've read a bunch of books on Africa, naturally you are more learned and wise. got it.

no i just actually got something out of them other than a couple of anecdotes.....which is what TRH does.....i could pull paragraphs or individual books to prove any point i want, instead i read a hundred opinions and noticed some commonalities in the majority....

anyone can read a book and parrot back, TRH is the king of this....critical thinking requires more.....

ah, so you read a bunch of books, noted the opinions therein, and formulated your own opinion based on the opinion of others as stated in the books.

ahh so your one of those that unless you do it yourself you dont know chit.....hope you never need a doc in an emergency room for anything but the standard chit....

and BTW thats just what jwp did except he only read people that agreed with him....i can give you a hand ful of people ive read that agree with him, but there is a reason the majority that BTDT dont.....

after all a critter thats dead on its feet from a good shot but not dead cant do any harm can it?

There is only one way and one way only to guarantee that an animal can not move after the shot and that is to take out the central nervous system. Each biological animal is a law unto them selves, some go down from lung shot and some do not.
Since you like to read I suggest you read some of Bell's writings.

Not sure where you came up with this crap but it is no where close to true and factual. I have read plenty, but experience has more value.

This is all good and well, however, what have you found out yourself? Seems to me much of your opinion was formed by others and conjecture. Many of the "standard" DG rounds were "standardized" at a time when bullet technology was lacking to say the very least. We have come a long way since and now even calibers that 30 years ago wouldn't have been considered adequate are as a result of better bullets. That said, what is adequate? If a bullet of large diameter (like the .45/70 and the .470 Turnbull) can produce a large hole, and penetrate enough to not only reach and destroy the vitals, but also exit, how can this be described as merely "adequate?" I hunt with handguns almost exclusively and the paper ballistics make them seem far less than adequate. I can assure you that there are many big-bore rifle loads that are considered standards that cannot out-penetrate some of my chosen bullet/load combinations at far lesser velocities. I can assure you they are adequate -- from experience.

Rattler, look at the damage the sot did to this pig. He went down at the shot, got up and ran off literally leaving no blood trail. Do you think a larger more powerful cartridge is the answer? If so I have some ocean front property that you may be interested in located in Nevada.

f

The discussion or argument of what is adequate or the "best" has raged for years, it even predates the internet, Nyschens, Taylor, Bell, Selby, Sutherland all had different viewpoints on what was best.

Most, but not all, PH's are not gun or bullet enthusiasts. They use what works. I have hunted Tanzania, Mozambique, and Zimbabwe, all with Zim PHs, all dangerous game hunts. I have only seen one 375 H&H in camp for a PH. The remaining ones carried mostly 458 Wins or Lotts, 470 and 500 Doubles, the odd 416 Rigby, and one had a 505 Gibbs in a George Gibbs rifle. Ammo ranged from new Federal and Hornady to Kynochs that appeared to be older than me. I can assure you there is not a PH that I ever met that would carry a 45-70 rifle or a pistol on the job. Bigger will work better, you still have to the animal correctly, but there is no substitution for horsepower or reliability on large dangerous game.

375 or 9.3 is the minimum dangerous game caliber in most countries with varying requirements for energy, mostly around 4000 ft. lbs. I guess exceptions are made for pistols. Client rifles in camp tend to be 375-416-458s or doubles 470 or 500s.

Client and PH responsibilities are different. I have always taken the view when choosing a firearm for a DG hunt that I would be doing the hunt on my own with no backup. After being charged by elephants in close cover and having been around some very upset buffalo I can assure you I would not carry a 45-70. Buffalo are tough if not hit correctly on the first shot. I do not know why, but they are. Several PHs have been killed in the last couple of years following up wounded buffalo, including some very experienced ones.

Another issue to keep in mind is bringing a hot rod round from 50 degree weather in Montana to 105 degree weather in Zimbabwe could be problematic. I like the extra case capacity and low pressures of the Nitro rounds.

I am a bullet whore and do love the new designs from North fork and CEB. The add another level of performance to any round.

My opinion on this subject differs from people I respect. At the end of the day we all kill or game and hopefully enjoy doing it. A lot of this is mental masturbation.

I need to go reload and practice some shooting. There is an elephant and buffalo that need killing in the near future.

EXCELLENT POST from someone who's been there and done it. While there is a great deal of truth to the fact modern day bullets allow us to use lighter calibers on bigger game, in my view Mike's post nails it. I will add this though, given PROPER bullet construction, SPEED KILLS. jorge

Not sure what he nailed. He claims bigger works better, but once you have enough I can't them being any deader. A bullet that puts a quarter size hole through the heart will kill just a s fast a a silver dollar sized hole through the heart. The proper bullet is much more important.

We'll agree to disagree. I don't care how "well constructed" a bullet is, but shoot a buffalo on the shoulder with a "well constructed" 3006 and then do the same with say, a 458Lott and there is a difference. To think that bigger is not better (given proper shot placement of course as only an idiot assumes otherwise) is just not what I subscribe to.

There's so many variables in any bullet strike it's hard to generalize. A small bullet might just miss a big blood vessel, and the critter runs a long way. The 45 cal bullet just nicks the vessel, and the trail is much shorter.

I do like the idea of bigger holes, in any case

The .475 TB #1 is fairly rare, less than 100 made according to Turnbull. Ruger also made a couple hundred #1's in .450 Nitro. I'd like to find one of them, too, but I've yet to see one that had really nice wood. (I collect #1's) The .475 makes bigger holes, but the .450 NE is a much bigger case, and could likely be loaded hotter. There's also more selection in .458 bullets, too.

The most instant, dramatic kill that I have ever seen on a buffalo was a body shot with 300 RUM. Quicker and more dramatic kill than my 416 Rigby produced or Jack's 450 Nitro.

Bigger is not mean better as long as you have enough. Saeed has taken 200 or Cape buffalo with his 375 and he thinks it is perfect.

You want dramatic? try a 416 Weatherby @2700 fps on a buffalo. Or ask Layne Simpson and the Brooks'. Saeed's 375/404 screams that bullet out of the muzzle and his Walterhog bullets are a clone of the TSX. I have no problems with a 375 as an all-arounder, but for elephant or as a PH stopper, in "my opinion" it is marginal at best, and a 45/70 is way below that.

Why? I'll take the .458 hole. A good flat-nosed solid will not only make a large hole, but a deep hole without "needing" 2,100 fps. The point is that there is enough momentum to punch all the way through.

By this thought process, if the .45/70 or .470 Turnbull is inadequate, handguns are woefully inadequate and with this I will wholeheartedly disagree.

The most dramatic kill I have witnessed was a cape buffslo I shot at about 25 ft with a 470 Nitro with 500 grain North Fork Cup Point solid. It was broadside when I shot. It slung its head back like a brain shot elephant and collapsed. High Heart shot. Bullet exited. The PH said he never saw anything like that before.

The worst kill I have witnessed was a buffalo shot with a 45-70 in a Contender. He was using Hornady DGX. It was not a bad shot. They tracked it for two days and by chance we bumped in to it while hunting and were forunate nobody was injured. We met up with the party that was tracking it, found the buffalo and the PH I was hunting with and myself put about 5 or 6 rounds of 470 Nitro in it to put it down. The bullet did not expand on the initial shot and caused little damage. To this day I believe the same shot out of a 458 Win-470 Nitro class rifle with a proper bullet would have put it down. He was also handicapped with a single shot firearm. I will add he took another buffalo later with the same set-up with one shot.

All shots are not perfect. All opportunities are not perfect.

The 375 H&H or Weatherby is a great round. Light recoil, shoots flat, has killed as much or more game while hunting than just about anything else. There is a reason so few PHs carry them in Dangerous Game areas. The Professionals know bigger will work better in less than perfect circumstances.

Exactly he uses a good bullet and locates it properly, my point exactly. I used to be a bigger is better believer but experience has proven that is not a fact. Gill Van Horn maintained that he never noticed any difference on buffalo from 375 to 470 . One fact remains put a proper bullet in the proper location equals dead. Guanyana prefer a 9.3 hardly big medicine and he's has stopped 2 buffalo charges with a 7.62 NATO round.

Not the best bullet IMHO. A friend of mine that you may know had no problem taking an elephant with a contender chambered in 45-70 and loads that he borrowed from JDJ. Ray lives in Morgan City.
His next 2 elephants were taken with a contender in 375 JDJ no drama in any of them just dead elephants.

Exactly.

Mid you are comfortable with your Turnbull go with it. I will recommend you load the first shot with a North Fork soft or CEB Raptor followed by either North Fork, CEB or GS Custom flat point solids. The Turnbull will work perfectly so loaded.

When Ross Seyfried guided he kept a 300 win in camp for clients to use on Cape Buffalo. I once asked him what Jo Anne Hall used on her Cape and he said his 300 win. Ted Hazlewood worked for Winchester most of his life took a lot of African game with a 458 win but the only one shot kill that he ever recorded on buffalo was not with the 458. The only one shot kill that he recorded on Cape buffalo was with the 300 win. Allen Day had a dramatic kill on a Cape buffalo with his 300 win as well.

There will definitely be more shudder at bullet impact with the 458 and more of a visual indication of impact but I have never been able to see that this led to quicker kills

You guys go right ahead then. Good luck and I'm sure you'll be in good company with all the PHs carrying 45/70 hand guns...And BTW, I never said any of the guns mentioned would not kill any of the animals mentioned, a good arrow will do the same ..

Sage words from those that have never tried it.

And never will..How many elephant and Cape Buff have you taken with your handguns?

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Gerard
one of us

posted Sep 2, 2:39 AM Hide Post
I have heard this argument for years as well. The bottom line is that 'energy transfer' is a myth in the sense of bullet penetration. You cannot kill anything with the energy that a bullet carries with it. Two holes, entrance and exit, bleed more and ventilate the cavity penetrated better than one hole. Animals are killed by an effective cavity volume and that cavity volume must be in the right place. A major organ or central nervous system must be disrupted sufficiently so that life is not sustained.

There is the additional fact that, a bullet/cartridge combination that cannot shoot through on a broadside shot, cannot be used for a straight going away. If a bullet/cartridge will shoot the length of an animal, it will shoot through on a broadside shot.

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Posts: 2425 | Location: Michigan - USA, Port Elizabeth - South Africa | Registered: 12 August 2002
Saeed
Administrator
posted Sep 2, 3:01 AM Hide Post
As Gerard has mentioned, energy means nothing.

It is the destruction of vital organs that kills an animal.

I will take penetration over expansion anytime - given a choice.

But, with today's mono metal hollow point bullet, one gets the best of both worlds.

From an exit hole and blood trail point, I have seen instances where there are two holes, an entrance and an exit, but hardly any blood trail.

All the bleeding has happened inside the animal.

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michael458
one of us

posted Sep 2, 6:01 AM Hide Post
I concur 100% with Gerard and Saeed................

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The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List!
Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom"

I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else.

Does it only count if I have taken enough or does those many taken by others count?

Either way. But while you're at it, might as well post all taken with a bow as well. I wonder why the African bush isn't crawling with PHs toting hand guns and 45/70s. To say they are "just as good" as any of the established (often times by law) calibers for dangerous game is not something I will agree with and BTW, I've posted a few pictures of dead buffalo with a 303 I've seen on a few sites.

And I forgot to add just for the discussion, is your contention that a 45/70 with a good bullet and 450NE (with the same bullet) on a buffalo there is no difference, so anybody with anything bigger than one (or a 300 Win Mag for that matter) is an is an idiot when they could be carrying a smaller round? Given identical shot placement of course.

Well Rattler has posted several (as in a [bleep]) of examples countering your opinion that he's only read about and you discounted his, so do those rules apply ?

Jorge you have totally misconstrued what I have said, I enough is enough and that is a fact.

Well if that is your perception, I tuly do apologize, but I did ask when I edited my post.

I guess by your reasoning Phil Shoemaker must be an idiot because he has posted numerous times that the 30-06 is perfectly adequate for big bears. In fact he even still uses it himself at times still.

I noted the following testing SOLIDS in regards to velocity.

Through wet newsprint only, the difference in penetration was less than I expected. Higher velocity was deeper but not much.

If I placed a series of boards and newsprint near the entrance of the test bed the difference was a little more pronounced but not by much.

If I placed the boards further back in the test bed and slowed the bullet down through the media the difference in penetration was much greater. At some point the lower velocity bullet did not have momentum to "punch" through the wood, were the bullet with the higher initial velocity easily penetrated through everything.

It is hard to relate newsprint and wood to flesh and bone. It provides a good consistent medium to test. However, at some point velocity does matter especially in big heavy boned animals such as buffalo and elephant especially on a raking shot.

RIP on AR noted the same findings, his description was a little more technical.

"A thought about boards (linear function resistance, LFR) mixed in with waterbuckets, wetpack, or SIM-TEST (exponential function resistance, EFR) as regards to response to velocity of the penetrating bullet and loss of resolving power of the test medium: LFR on the entrance end of the SimBA (simulated buffalo apparatus) contrbutes little to stopping the bullet, relative to its effectiveness in halting the bullet in the terminal/low velocity end of the SimBA. EFR provides much more resistance on the high velocity end, and less on the terminal end, thus allowing better resolution of difference in penetration, rather than having the LFR stop two close competitors at the same apparent distance, "hitting the wall.""

Not too many moons ago Ross Seyfried kill a Cape Buffalo with the 450 Wesley Richards express I believe a 480 grain hard cast at about 1400 FPS bullet exited. One shot kill, certainly seems to prove it was adequate.