Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Mule Deer-Message for Elmer Keith

Yeah...

Can't compete with the Top Dog, just get along without being a lap dog or a kicking dog...

DF

I spent a 12 day safari in Namibia with our own JB here�the modern day equivalent to a Keith or a JOC and he was a perfect gentleman throughout.And so was I�...

I wouldn't put JB in the same alpha dog class with JOC or Elmer. Seems to me, JB's a bit more mellow that those guys. I see him as competitive and confident, but not into himself enough to qualify for that league. Eileen may disagree...

The ongoing feud between Elmer and JOC speaks a lot to their psychological profiles. You can throw Charlie Askins, Jr. into that mix. He and Elmer were tight, because the Sr. Askins got Elmer started as a gun writer and Charlie adored his Dad. Charlie accused JOC of blowing the whistle on Askins, Sr. As the old man became a bit senile, Jr., reportedly, was doing some ghost writing for him. Sr. was the highest paid gun writer in his day, so there was money on the table...

Alpha dog city...

DF

I wanted one but Fredericks didn't have any leopard thongs small enough to fit me. Any suggestions as to an alternate source?

works pretty good on squirrels too

I certainly wouldn't compare JB to Elmer. John isn't full of crap.

I like my .270

I like my .44 S&W

kudos & thanks to both Keith & O'Connor...

The JOC versus EK "feud" was beneficial for both of them. I'm sure both were aware of this. They didn't need to like each other, just to disagree in print.
I recall an article by a former Winchester employee who was present when JOC and EK met in person for the first time. The Winchester man was sweating bullets over a fight breaking out. JOC and EK got along just fine...

I wouldn't either and didn't.

Some of that "feud" could have been scripted but I don't think it came out of a vacuum.

DF

I don't have time or interest enough to read all this.
But , for what it is worth , very little, I purchased an Elmer Keith...owned .300 Weatherby, german one at that, at the Riviera Gun Show along with 2 other rifles, about 12-14 years ago. Shot very poorly. Had to practically give it away. Showed the Weatherby confirmation letter to the buyer. After buyer had left my place I found the letter on my bench. I thought he might call for it, never did.

I quit reading gun rags years ago����same old stuff, like this.
Cisco

I've read "Hell I was there" and I'm almost halfway through The Hunting Rifle.

I enjoy both their styles and stories. I think JOC approached his thoughts and writings in a more formal, fact based (teacher like) method and was clear in his writings. A little more like talking to your stern experienced grandfather.

Keith was more demonstrative and "loud" in his writing - more like hanging with your crazy uncle.

I deeply respect both men and their contributions. Both Bill Jordan's and Ed McGivern's books are also interesting from a style standpoint - and not short on "confidence".

I met a man in Salmon (ID) in 2006 that was a member of the Masonic Lodge with Keith and hunted with him in the Salmon River area. He told me that the 30-06 was one of Keith's favorite rifle cartridges and he used it regularly, but the 375 H&H was better for articles (and money).

My grandpa found a slew of G&A magazines from the mid sixties to like 1986 and knew he had to get them for me (I miss him, he was like that).

I always enjoyed reading Elmer's stuff because he always seemed like people I grew up around and sometimes seemed a bit outlandish in the details; like a friendly BSing farmer.

O'Connor always seemed to tell the story in chronological, matter of fact fashion, just like I did/had to for term papers in college.

I've only met one gunwriter in person and he wasn't full of himself, LOVED guns like most of us here and you could tell he enjoyed helping answer questions....and enjoyed people.

Like most professions, I think a lot of average people think they know more, do more and are better qualified (or envious) than many they like to critique. Most than often, they aren't.

Two things I will say here. First, if Keith was happy and successful using big bore rifles, good for him. He lived his life the way he wanted, using the tools he wanted. He was under no obligation to abandon what he knew would work and dedicate his life to the latest and greatest gear. He wasn't living for his readers. He determined cutting edge technology wasn't required. He was entitled to his opinion.

He didn't have to use the latest and greatest and neither do we. I use a 303 and a 45-70 a lot. I also like cast bullets. This doesn't make me "stuck in the 1800s". It makes me happy. I think the numbers of BP and archery hunters are proof that you can be successful and happy with tools designed a long time ago. They don't bother with magnum rifles, jacketed or premium bullets and even scopes.

Second, it seems reasonable that Keith used a 30-06 more often than people thought. The ammunition was plentiful, as were 30 cal bullets. When he hunted, he knew what would get the job done. Jack O'Connor liked the 30-06 too. Perhaps there are times when two different personalities can agree on something.

Both men are gazing down on this and laughing. They were a success, as is evidenced by the amount of words expended on them every day, years after their passing.

Well, I guess than that Hitler is looking up and laughing.

Steve, I see a basic difference with your use of cast bullets and the .303 and .45/70 and Elmer's choices; you aren't attempting to convince others that your choices are the only correct ones by bad-mouthing other choices.

I can't stand that sort of behavior, in story tellers or first hand. When a piece of information is presented as being nonfiction and factual, it needs to be presented as such. Otherwise the presenter loses credibility with me.

I feel that way about Keith's writing. I'm sure he was just fine in person, but I just can't take him seriously as a writer.

I'm not much for embellishments either. Just the facts ma'am.

IIRC, and I do, towards the very end of his life, he'd written (in Gun Notes) that a 175 Nosler Partition in the 7mm Rem Mag was just about the perfect elk rifle/bullet combination. Heck, I've probably still got that old G&A around here someplace.

While I enjoyed both of their writing styles, I tended to follow the O'Connor school of thought more than Keith's, as he was more polished and frankly, a better writer. My favorite writer was Skeeter Skelton, though, who could both weave a great story and educate you at the same time.

I don't think many writers get famous or make a living with "just the facts".