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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,154 Likes: 3
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,154 Likes: 3 |
Yeah... Can't compete with the Top Dog, just get along without being a lap dog or a kicking dog... DF
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 78,300 Likes: 1 |
DF, Spot on!
Romantic notions usually do not stand up to real life experiences. It takes a special kinda dog to run with an alpha dog. That dog, generally will be a supporter, one to cheer the alpha, to be there for the alpha without competing for center stage. Not a real common dog... DF I spent a 12 day safari in Namibia with our own JB here�the modern day equivalent to a Keith or a JOC and he was a perfect gentleman throughout.And so was I�...
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,154 Likes: 3
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,154 Likes: 3 |
I wouldn't put JB in the same alpha dog class with JOC or Elmer. Seems to me, JB's a bit more mellow that those guys. I see him as competitive and confident, but not into himself enough to qualify for that league. Eileen may disagree... The ongoing feud between Elmer and JOC speaks a lot to their psychological profiles. You can throw Charlie Askins, Jr. into that mix. He and Elmer were tight, because the Sr. Askins got Elmer started as a gun writer and Charlie adored his Dad. Charlie accused JOC of blowing the whistle on Askins, Sr. As the old man became a bit senile, Jr., reportedly, was doing some ghost writing for him. Sr. was the highest paid gun writer in his day, so there was money on the table... Alpha dog city... DF
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 442
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 442 |
I can't believe that everyone is skirting the 'elephant in the room'.
No one has yet even mentioned how gay the .270 is... I own 3-.270's and am quite happy with them. I rest my case. I wanted one but Fredericks didn't have any leopard thongs small enough to fit me. Any suggestions as to an alternate source?
NRA Endowment Member, Life since 1978
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000 |
Yeah, Elmer new what he was talking about. He said he saw a jack rabbit shot with a .270, it scratched itself and ran off. He told more stories than most people ever heard. I've shot quite a few jack rabbits with a .270 myself, I know what it will do to a jackrabbit. works pretty good on squirrels too
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,900 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,900 Likes: 1 |
I wouldn't put JB in the same alpha dog class with JOC or Elmer. Seems to me, JB's a bit more mellow that those guys. I see him as competitive and confident, but not into himself enough to qualify for that league. Eileen may disagree... The ongoing feud between Elmer and JOC speaks a lot to their psychological profiles. You can throw Charlie Askins, Jr. into that mix. He and Elmer were tight, because the Sr. Askins got Elmer started as a gun writer and Charlie adored his Dad. Charlie accused JOC of blowing the whistle on Askins, Sr. As the old man became a bit senile, Jr., reportedly, was doing some ghost writing for him. Sr. was the highest paid gun writer in his day, so there was money on the table... Alpha dog city... DF I certainly wouldn't compare JB to Elmer. John isn't full of crap.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
I like my .270
I like my .44 S&W
kudos & thanks to both Keith & O'Connor...
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Posts: 2,965
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,965 |
The JOC versus EK "feud" was beneficial for both of them. I'm sure both were aware of this. They didn't need to like each other, just to disagree in print. I recall an article by a former Winchester employee who was present when JOC and EK met in person for the first time. The Winchester man was sweating bullets over a fight breaking out. JOC and EK got along just fine...
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,154 Likes: 3
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,154 Likes: 3 |
I wouldn't put JB in the same alpha dog class with JOC or Elmer. Seems to me, JB's a bit more mellow that those guys. I see him as competitive and confident, but not into himself enough to qualify for that league. Eileen may disagree... The ongoing feud between Elmer and JOC speaks a lot to their psychological profiles. You can throw Charlie Askins, Jr. into that mix. He and Elmer were tight, because the Sr. Askins got Elmer started as a gun writer and Charlie adored his Dad. Charlie accused JOC of blowing the whistle on Askins, Sr. As the old man became a bit senile, Jr., reportedly, was doing some ghost writing for him. Sr. was the highest paid gun writer in his day, so there was money on the table... Alpha dog city... DF I certainly wouldn't compare JB to Elmer. John isn't full of crap. I wouldn't either and didn't. Some of that "feud" could have been scripted but I don't think it came out of a vacuum. DF
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 8,510 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 8,510 Likes: 3 |
I don't have time or interest enough to read all this. But , for what it is worth , very little, I purchased an Elmer Keith...owned .300 Weatherby, german one at that, at the Riviera Gun Show along with 2 other rifles, about 12-14 years ago. Shot very poorly. Had to practically give it away. Showed the Weatherby confirmation letter to the buyer. After buyer had left my place I found the letter on my bench. I thought he might call for it, never did.
I quit reading gun rags years ago����same old stuff, like this. Cisco
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,007
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2009
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I've read "Hell I was there" and I'm almost halfway through The Hunting Rifle.
I enjoy both their styles and stories. I think JOC approached his thoughts and writings in a more formal, fact based (teacher like) method and was clear in his writings. A little more like talking to your stern experienced grandfather.
Keith was more demonstrative and "loud" in his writing - more like hanging with your crazy uncle.
I deeply respect both men and their contributions. Both Bill Jordan's and Ed McGivern's books are also interesting from a style standpoint - and not short on "confidence".
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810 |
Elmer forgot more about guns than most people ever know.... There was a lot about guns that Elmer refused to learn. Elmer was stuck back in the 1800s with his big bore rifles. ....but then I guess he needed big bore guns & his 17 gallon hat to make up for his size 6 boots. Mike I met a man in Salmon (ID) in 2006 that was a member of the Masonic Lodge with Keith and hunted with him in the Salmon River area. He told me that the 30-06 was one of Keith's favorite rifle cartridges and he used it regularly, but the 375 H&H was better for articles (and money).
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,958 |
My grandpa found a slew of G&A magazines from the mid sixties to like 1986 and knew he had to get them for me (I miss him, he was like that).
I always enjoyed reading Elmer's stuff because he always seemed like people I grew up around and sometimes seemed a bit outlandish in the details; like a friendly BSing farmer.
O'Connor always seemed to tell the story in chronological, matter of fact fashion, just like I did/had to for term papers in college.
I've only met one gunwriter in person and he wasn't full of himself, LOVED guns like most of us here and you could tell he enjoyed helping answer questions....and enjoyed people.
Like most professions, I think a lot of average people think they know more, do more and are better qualified (or envious) than many they like to critique. Most than often, they aren't.
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,736 Likes: 4
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,736 Likes: 4 |
Elmer forgot more about guns than most people ever know.... There was a lot about guns that Elmer refused to learn. Elmer was stuck back in the 1800s with his big bore rifles. ....but then I guess he needed big bore guns & his 17 gallon hat to make up for his size 6 boots. Mike I met a man in Salmon (ID) in 2006 that was a member of the Masonic Lodge with Keith and hunted with him in the Salmon River area. He told me that the 30-06 was one of Keith's favorite rifle cartridges and he used it regularly, but the 375 H&H was better for articles (and money). Two things I will say here. First, if Keith was happy and successful using big bore rifles, good for him. He lived his life the way he wanted, using the tools he wanted. He was under no obligation to abandon what he knew would work and dedicate his life to the latest and greatest gear. He wasn't living for his readers. He determined cutting edge technology wasn't required. He was entitled to his opinion. He didn't have to use the latest and greatest and neither do we. I use a 303 and a 45-70 a lot. I also like cast bullets. This doesn't make me "stuck in the 1800s". It makes me happy. I think the numbers of BP and archery hunters are proof that you can be successful and happy with tools designed a long time ago. They don't bother with magnum rifles, jacketed or premium bullets and even scopes. Second, it seems reasonable that Keith used a 30-06 more often than people thought. The ammunition was plentiful, as were 30 cal bullets. When he hunted, he knew what would get the job done. Jack O'Connor liked the 30-06 too. Perhaps there are times when two different personalities can agree on something. Both men are gazing down on this and laughing. They were a success, as is evidenced by the amount of words expended on them every day, years after their passing.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,275
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,275 |
Elmer forgot more about guns than most people ever know.... There was a lot about guns that Elmer refused to learn. Elmer was stuck back in the 1800s with his big bore rifles. ....but then I guess he needed big bore guns & his 17 gallon hat to make up for his size 6 boots. Mike I met a man in Salmon (ID) in 2006 that was a member of the Masonic Lodge with Keith and hunted with him in the Salmon River area. He told me that the 30-06 was one of Keith's favorite rifle cartridges and he used it regularly, but the 375 H&H was better for articles (and money). Both men are gazing down on this and laughing. They were a success, as is evidenced by the amount of words expended on them every day, years after their passing. Well, I guess than that Hitler is looking up and laughing.
Its all right to be white!! Stupidity left unattended will run rampant Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,907 Likes: 7
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,907 Likes: 7 |
Steve, I see a basic difference with your use of cast bullets and the .303 and .45/70 and Elmer's choices; you aren't attempting to convince others that your choices are the only correct ones by bad-mouthing other choices.
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,900 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,900 Likes: 1 |
I always enjoyed reading Elmer's stuff because he always seemed like people I grew up around and sometimes seemed a bit outlandish in the details; like a friendly BSing farmer.
I can't stand that sort of behavior, in story tellers or first hand. When a piece of information is presented as being nonfiction and factual, it needs to be presented as such. Otherwise the presenter loses credibility with me. I feel that way about Keith's writing. I'm sure he was just fine in person, but I just can't take him seriously as a writer.
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,939
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,939 |
I always enjoyed reading Elmer's stuff because he always seemed like people I grew up around and sometimes seemed a bit outlandish in the details; like a friendly BSing farmer.
I can't stand that sort of behavior, in story tellers or first hand. When a piece of information is presented as being nonfiction and factual, it needs to be presented as such. Otherwise the presenter loses credibility with me. I feel that way about Keith's writing. I'm sure he was just fine in person, but I just can't take him seriously as a writer. I'm not much for embellishments either. Just the facts ma'am.
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,534
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,534 |
John I have always found it odd that Keith didn't embrace the partition as well. Had he used them I think his stands on what was effective on larger game and the minimum caliber or cartridge for "raking shots" may have at least softened if not changed. IIRC, and I do, towards the very end of his life, he'd written (in Gun Notes) that a 175 Nosler Partition in the 7mm Rem Mag was just about the perfect elk rifle/bullet combination. Heck, I've probably still got that old G&A around here someplace. While I enjoyed both of their writing styles, I tended to follow the O'Connor school of thought more than Keith's, as he was more polished and frankly, a better writer. My favorite writer was Skeeter Skelton, though, who could both weave a great story and educate you at the same time.
You can roll a turd in peanuts, dip it in chocolate, and it still ain't no damn Baby Ruth.
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,007
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,007 |
I always enjoyed reading Elmer's stuff because he always seemed like people I grew up around and sometimes seemed a bit outlandish in the details; like a friendly BSing farmer.
I can't stand that sort of behavior, in story tellers or first hand. When a piece of information is presented as being nonfiction and factual, it needs to be presented as such. Otherwise the presenter loses credibility with me. I feel that way about Keith's writing. I'm sure he was just fine in person, but I just can't take him seriously as a writer. I'm not much for embellishments either. Just the facts ma'am. I don't think many writers get famous or make a living with "just the facts".
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