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There's no question that what you say is true. It's all about the wind.

But when a guy can hone his skills enough with an accurate rifle and load with confirmed drops, develops wind-reading skills from experience, and chooses his shots that he knows he can make, I will go as far as to guarantee you that he wounds FAR LESS from 500 to 1000 yards than Joe Blow who shoots a box a year does from 0 to 100.

JG,

I can completely see where you're coming from, but I have a couple of points to make...

- The wind is THE enemy to making LR hits. But fortunately the more primers you pop in the wind, the more clear your understanding of what effect a given wind condition has on a given bullet, and your future estimates of net wind drift become more precise and more accurate. Probably the most valuable result of this "education", is that it teaches a LR guy when he shouldn't shoot

- Distances beyond 1000m are typically considered ER (extreme-range) hunting. LR hunting if often considered between 500 or 600 and 1000 yards. Making first-round hits at extreme range requires a whole different level of "education", and for this reason a sighter shot 100 feet to the side of the animal is common place in this kind of hunting

- My observations about SR guys missing and wounding more often than LR guys are based off my own experience, witnessing my buds and other LR guys that I know, and many, many average-Joe hunters that I've hunted with. It makes sense that LR guys miss and wound less, since by definition if they are really into LR, they have invested a lot of effort, money, and time into honing the art, and are more likely to be picky about taking shots within their abilities. The average hunter may only take a couple of days off a year for shooting/hunting, and they typically want to make those days count by shooting whatever legal animal they see, regardless of shot presentation, the animal running or standing still, etc. There are a LOT of guys that will take a shot at running game without a second thought, which has a WAY higher likelihood of missing/wounding than a LR guy taking his time to gauge the wind drift in a 10 mph wind and carefully taking a shot, usually without the time pressure of a running shot at a fleeting critter. It all comes down to a guy knowing his limitations. Usually LR guys have spent enough time and primers to be well-familiar with theirs, while the average-Joe often doesn't know what his limitations are, and doesn't care to find out until he's actually shooting at game. Keep in mind that the posters here on 24H are not the guys that make up the bulk of what I'm calling the average-Joe hunter

RC,Jordan, well said, and I understand where you're coming from.

I didn't attach an arbitrary distance to my statement, and I also said "self-proclaimed LR shooters", which includes the massive group of people these days that fork out their $5,000 and think they are an instant LR shooter...

I can freely admit I'm not all that good with a hockey stick. Put a rifle in my hands and I feel much more at home.

There's no sense in trying to argue with these LR guys. They are always going to compare their hit record to the "Average Joe" hunter to justify their selfish methods. Most of the proponents have but a few kills (and several wounds or misses) at long range to back up their methodology. It's just not worth your energy.

Funny thing is, I've seen little in the way of evidence about LR guys actually practicing more than normal range guys, despite the claims to the contrary.

I figured it out, you just can't seem to remember is the point.

PG,
What kind of proof do you want?

Judging from what I have witnessed in the antelope prairie around here Jordan makes an excellent point. Watching the one week a year guys come to this area and pound away at antelope,is disheartenening. If they own rangefinders they ain't using them and the amount of shots on moving game at distances they are shooting from the stand or one elbow over the hood are ridiculous. Antelope seem to attract poor shooting skills because of the wide open spaces, the wind and their coloration makes them appear bigger(closer) then they are. What are the thought processes of people trying to shoot antelope at 500-600 yds in a 25mph switchy breeze that are running say 45 mph........they are thinking heck I got these tags ,I paid good money, I am gonna at least let them antelope know I am here???????

Sad but true. Somehow pronghorns seem to bring out the worst in people.

Yep, been there done that many moons ago...didn't shoot at running game or wound anything but after taking three shots on my first antelope hunt and hitting nothing I paced off the distance to an approximate land mark where the antelope were. I stopped after 500 and still hadn't gotten to the spot. Wizened up, regrouped and set up on a ridge above some does at 180yrds and made the kill from prone.
One needs to do their homework.

I've already said none of those answers would change the reality of what I stated.

I'm not playing the "I've shot more than you" or the "my rifle is better than yours" games

The thread is NOT about me, and nothing I said would be changed by anything

It's funny how the LR crowd is saying many hunters can't hit at SHORT range, but attack me when I said MOST hunters shouldnt shoot at LONG range.

Prarie Goat got it 100% right:

First, who said anything about rifles-Ha!
Two, exactly the answer I sadly expected, but thank you for giving it.

Another funny thing is that there are guys with little or no long range experience who actually think the garbage you just posted is true.

When you don't know how it's done, the above just has to be true, right? I mean, it's impossible stuff to be able to deliver a bullet with that kind of precision with all of the variables involved at the ranges those dudes talk about. It's more luck than anything, right?

Get a grip.

You ought to start a thread asking for long range hunter's/shooter's truths. How many have they wounded and at what range? How much shooting do they actually do and ask them prove it with some type of verifiable data like piles of spent brass and primers. How often do they wear out a barrel? Maybe even ask them to show you their results from long range competition and how many competitions have they attended. How frequently do they do so?

You may actually learn something about it and have to stop making [bleep] up.

Guys that don't shoot haven't a clue. You see when you shoot and actually shoot a lot your buy your components like this..



And you wear out barrels like this...



...But I am sure you hard chargers know about me and my capabilities through your own "experience". Laffin'

Awesome stuff heavy....! Thing is, you'd need every one of those bullets out here mule deer hunting with me, shooting 500-700 yds in those 20-30mph variable and swirling winds.

Yeah, here is the thing, I wouldn't take that shot. All that shooting shows you what you shouldn't do just as much as it shows you what you can do.

Well said!

I think, that actually make the points both of B&C and Mr. Stecker.

Well said.

Its all about performance envelope. Taking a plane outside its, gets you killed. Taking your rifle/bow and yourself outside theirs, gets misses or, worse, wounds an animal.

Trick is to know before the shot if one is able to do it - on that day, under prevailing conditions, with the equipment at hand.

Really - not a long range proposition. Much more a core hunting situation judgement.

So change "rifles" to guns.
It makes no difference, and I have both

It should be the expected answer, since I had already given it more than once, but you kept repeating yourself

More and more I'm beginning to see the LR crowd seems to be doing it for the ego trip