Ongoing discussions about all types of hunting are necessary. As time passes and technologies advance, it is important to recalibrate ones understanding of the available options while staying mindful of those things we value regarding responsible hunting. Young adults getting their driver�s license experience a rapid advancement in the technology related to their mobility. They are compelled to readjust their attitudes and understanding about responsible behavior in the face of this advancement. Does the real potential danger of injury or death by accessing this new technology mean that they should be discouraged from driving? Of course not. What they need instead is to understand the importance of acting responsibly.
To this end, I applaud Boone and Crockett for their latest communications about Long Range Shooting. They have provided three works which eloquently express the importance of being a responsible hunter. These are:
Long-Range Shooting: Defining A New Ethic in Hunting Boone and Crockett Club Position Statement Long Shots: Fad or Trend? Their comments about the importance of being a responsible hunter are so well communicated that I will not recount their message here but rather encourage you to read them. Within these works, they make several points. Most of these points should be embraced by all hunters. Distance aside, there is no sensible reason why a hunter should take a shot at a game animal in which the hunter couldn�t hit the center of the vital area 9 out of 10 times as Wayne C. van Zwoll�s article suggests. On this we should all agree.
However, it is appropriate that we agree to disagree on the value of the technological advancements that allow hunters to take such a shot. The idea of fair chase is, at its core, simply an idea. As an idea will, it means different things to different people. I�d offer that the most literal application of fair chase is to go into the wild, barefooted and grab a rock or a stick you come across on the way. Essentially, anything added to this experience is using technology to overcome the game�s senses. The hunting experience is just as intimate and real for those who use tree stands, calls, feeders, blinds, decoys, trail cameras, scent concealer, compound bows and the numerous other technology advancements in the area of hunting.
I agree 100% that no shot should be taken that is not certain of success. The question is, how do these advancing technologies factor into this success? Precision rifles that are capable of consistent, lengthened trajectories provide significantly improved shot placement due to reduced drift and drop. Just because a hunter has a rifle that can hit targets consistently at 1,000 yards doesn�t mean that this is the distance at which they engage game. Most animals taken with longer range capable firearms are taken at distance far short of their capable range.
Range finders, environmental measuring devices and trajectory calculators allow a hunter to be certain of his shot placement situation regardless of range. These devices are not utilized only when the game is at distance, but at any distance they are engaged. Well made, balanced bullets with sleek designs not only improve shot placement capabilities; but they also increase the amount of energy on impact, further ensuring a quick and humane harvest.
I fully appreciate the effort and the experience one goes through in traversing that extra 50 yards to get closer to an animal. However, for many hunters in the modern era, this activity is not as stimulating as the endeavor of developing a precision rifle and their skills with practice and patience. Such efforts applied by a responsible hunter are certain to produce an ethical outcome while at the same time being a fully enjoyable hunting experience.
For those who want to get closer because that is what excites them about a hunt, I encourage them to do so and I will celebrate with them their accomplishment. If they take a precision rifle into the same situation, they�ve increased their likelihood for success that much more by utilizing improved shot placement and higher impact energy capabilities that come with this advancement in technology. None of these advancements are preventing those who want to get closer from doing so.
Hunting is about the experience. Being a responsible hunter is about the individual. Those who are responsible will act accordingly regardless of what technological advancements they take into the field. It is not certain that the person commonly recognized as founding the idea of fair chase, Theodore Roosevelt himself wouldn�t own and use a precision rifle if he understood how it incorporated improved shot placement and higher impact energy capabilities into his own hunting experience.
In the end, the important idea is that we should all be responsible hunters, and those of us who are in the industry should promote this idea. Berger Bullets started testing our hunting bullets in West Virginia on hogs, and not a shot was taken over 75 yards. The next test was in New Zealand where multiple dozens of animal were harvested. Most of the animals were taken at 175 yards or less, with a few in the 300 yard range. Walt Berger has been a sportsman all his life having run trap lines in Ohio at the age of 9. He�s taken one animal at �475 steps�. All of the other animals he recalls over his numerous decades of active hunting were taken at distances less than 150 yards.
When we started promoting the use of our bullets for hunting, it was not our intent to become regarded as a �long range� hunting bullet. It just so happens that our bullets are well balanced and designed with sleek profiles. This results in better shot placement and higher energy on impact. Both of these things are useful to any hunter, and provide the hunter with nothing more than options. It is irresponsible for a hunter to assume that using our bullets can give them the ability to shoot to distances they haven�t already practiced with confirmed success.
To assist in communicating the idea of responsible hunting, we are initiating a hunter education effort. We are making targets available that can be downloaded and printed on an 8.5� X 11� standard sheet of paper. You can download them from our
Vital Zone Hunting Targets page. On this target will be an actual size representation of the vital zone area of various different game animals. We strongly encourage those who use our bullets or any bullets for hunting to download this target and place it at any distance at which you feel capable of hitting the center of the vital area 9 out of 10 times.
If you can do this, then you�ve proven that you are acting responsibly when taking a shot at this distance. Our objective is to further educate that our bullets are not made to achieve long range kills for the sake of distance. They are made precisely to improve shot placement and are designed thoughtfully to allow higher levels of energy on impact. The distance at which a hunter chooses to apply these capabilities will ultimately come down to the character of the individual and their abilities.
Link to original blog:
http://www.bergerbullets.com/boone-and-crockett-ethical-hunting/Download Free Vital Zone Targets Here:
http://www.bergerbullets.com/vital-z...nting-targets/Eric Stecker
Executive Vice President
Berger Bullets
The idea of fair chase is, at its core, simply an idea.
For some, it's more than that. More like a code. And a wise man once said, the general public will only tolerate hunting as long as they think it's fair. Or something to that effect.
I�d offer that the most literal application of fair chase is to go into the wild, barefooted and grab a rock or a stick you come across on the way. Essentially, anything added to this experience is using technology to overcome the game�s senses.
True, but that doesn't mean that anything goes. We place lots of limits on technology in hunting, voluntarily and by law.
Hitting a stationary piece of paper 9 out of 10 times still won't assure an animal at 500+ yds won't decide to move just as you trip the trigger
Just because "there's an ap for that" doesn't mean most people should try it
Hitting a stationary piece of paper 9 out of 10 times still won't assure an animal at 500+ yds won't decide to move just as you trip the trigger
Just because "there's an ap for that" doesn't mean most people should try it
Can I see your long range setup? I bet it's UBER.
Travis
Hitting a stationary piece of paper 9 out of 10 times still won't assure an animal at 500+ yds won't decide to move just as you trip the trigger
Just because "there's an ap for that" doesn't mean most people should try it
Pretty easy to tell sometimes that a critter isn't about to up and move. I'll submit a deer I recently shot in Wyoming:
![[Linked Image]](http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee266/zingdingo/2014-09-27%2008.18.26.png)
This year's was a chip shot, but last year I took one in a very similar scenario at 503. In both cases I had zero concern my target was about to move.
Move? Do you guys mean like when a deer jumps a string?
Travis
Are you Eric's other admin.?
I don't even know what an Eric Stecker is. And even if I did, I'd not give a fugg what his opinion is.
Travis
I like the way B&C addresses the long range killing that is being somewhat pushed on tv. While addressing ALL hunting tools.
"The Club finds that long-range shooting takes unfair advantage of the game animal, effectively eliminates the natural capacity of an animal to use its senses and instincts to detect danger, and demeans the hunter/prey relationship in a way that diminishes the importance and relevance of the animal and the hunt. The Club urges all hunters to think carefully of the consequences of long-range shooting, whether hunting with a rifle, bow, muzzleloader, crossbow, or handgun, and not confuse the purposes and intent of long-range shooting with fair chase hunting."
President of Berger bullets. Obviously, a disinterested third party. I do like their bullets though.
My LRF solved one problem, now I need a doppler wind guesser and I might be able to hit some damn thing. This schidt is hard.
mike r
Hitting a stationary piece of paper 9 out of 10 times still won't assure an animal at 500+ yds won't decide to move just as you trip the trigger
Just because "there's an ap for that" doesn't mean most people should try it
Can I see your long range setup? I bet it's UBER.
Travis
snipper just put you on ignore
Hitting a stationary piece of paper 9 out of 10 times still won't assure an animal at 500+ yds won't decide to move just as you trip the trigger
Just because "there's an ap for that" doesn't mean most people should try it
Can I see your long range setup? I bet it's UBER.
Travis
snipper just put you on ignore
No.
I just saw no point in answering to something that had nothing to do with what I said
Hitting a stationary piece of paper 9 out of 10 times still won't assure an animal at 500+ yds won't decide to move just as you trip the trigger
Just because "there's an ap for that" doesn't mean most people should try it
Pretty easy to tell sometimes that a critter isn't about to up and move. I'll submit a deer I recently shot in Wyoming:
This year's was a chip shot, but last year I took one in a very similar scenario at 503. In both cases I had zero concern my target was about to move.
there was a time when shooting a bedded deer was akin to sleeping with your sister. just wasn't done. that was back when we usually made head shots on deer or neck shots. today the experts squeal like pigs if that is done. only way to kill an animal is heart/lung preferably with shoulders also smashed. Phooey!
In both cases I had zero concern my target was about to move.
Your lack of concern doesn't change the possibility of them moving
It merely shows you don't care
No.
I just saw no point in answering to something that had nothing to do with what I said
Sounds like an awesome rig.
Can you tell me at what range I can stop worrying about whether or not the deer moves at the same moment the primer is ignited?
Thanks in advance.
Travis
Depends on the burning speed of your powder. With a fast-burning powder........
In both cases I had zero concern my target was about to move.
Your lack of concern doesn't change the possibility of them moving
It merely shows you don't care
I think it shows he's a keen observer of wildlife. And knows that a bedded deer won't move.
I like the way B&C addresses the long range killing that is being somewhat pushed on tv. While addressing ALL hunting tools.
"The Club finds that long-range shooting takes unfair advantage of the game animal, effectively eliminates the natural capacity of an animal to use its senses and instincts to detect danger, and demeans the hunter/prey relationship in a way that diminishes the importance and relevance of the animal and the hunt. The Club urges all hunters to think carefully of the consequences of long-range shooting, whether hunting with a rifle, bow, muzzleloader, crossbow, or handgun, and not confuse the purposes and intent of long-range shooting with fair chase hunting."
Guessing Eric has never chased after wolves. Those buggers pretty well know how to sense and stay at least 1,00-1,200 yards out. Their senses are more than adequate to keep themselves mostly safe.
I'm all for debate and discussion on all topics amongst people with similar interests. But does anybody really give two flying schists what the B&C club thinks of anything? I also don't give a schit what Eric the Bullet Seller thinks and I cannot imagine why anybody on this earth would.
The stench of legislation is filling the air mighty quick IMO. Proving once again the biggest enemy of hunting is the high and mighty fuggstick crowd.
Travis
In both cases I had zero concern my target was about to move.
Your lack of concern doesn't change the possibility of them moving
It merely shows you don't care
I think it shows he's a keen observer of wildlife. And knows that a bedded deer won't move.
Most bedded deer eventually get up, which disproves your theory
No.
I just saw no point in answering to something that had nothing to do with what I said
Can you tell me at what range I can stop worrying about whether or not the deer moves at the same moment the primer is ignited?
Thanks in advance.
Travis
You seem to be hallucinating
I'd suggest you aovid firearms all together until you sober up
I love people trying to tell other people how to do things while playing the ethics or "its not hunting" card. Even funnier is these types usually are found in the eastern half of the US where, without context of the western 2/3 of the US, hunting is very close range.
Hell, where does it stop? We have scopes now, scents, calls, blinds, good accurate bullets, and the list goes on...
The holier than thou types just crack me up -
In both cases I had zero concern my target was about to move.
Your lack of concern doesn't change the possibility of them moving
It merely shows you don't care
Well then Snyper, what time of flight do the people who care find acceptable?
You seem to be hallucinating
I'd suggest you aovid firearms all together until you sober up
Boy. You sure seem to know a lot about this topic.
Impressive!
Travis
In both cases I had zero concern my target was about to move.
Your lack of concern doesn't change the possibility of them moving
It merely shows you don't care
I think it shows he's a keen observer of wildlife. And knows that a bedded deer won't move.
Most bedded deer eventually get up, which disproves your theory
It's not a theory, provided you pull the trigger while they're still lying down.
Proving once again the biggest enemy of hunting is the high and mighty fuggstick crowd.
Travis
I'll need to know their position.
Proving once again the biggest enemy of hunting is the high and mighty fuggstick crowd.
Travis
I'll need to know their position.
They're typically standing upright and asking you to bend over.
Travis
I'm all for debate and discussion on all topics amongst people with similar interests. But does anybody really give two flying schists what the B&C club thinks of anything? I also don't give a schit what Eric the Bullet Seller thinks and I cannot imagine why anybody on this earth would.
The stench of legislation is filling the air mighty quick IMO. Proving once again the biggest enemy of hunting is the high and mighty fuggstick crowd.
Travis
Yep. The only thing that really matters is what I think.
I'll call B&C and 'splain it
In both cases I had zero concern my target was about to move.
Your lack of concern doesn't change the possibility of them moving
It merely shows you don't care
Well then Snyper, what time of flight do the people who care find acceptable?
Seems like the bow hunting industry is in big $i%& as flight time is pretty long in general
I think 'flave has relatives at B&C. I just got off of the phone with someone there who told me to GFM.
But does anybody really give two flying schists what the B&C club thinks of anything?
The stench of legislation is filling the air mighty quick IMO. Proving once again the biggest enemy of hunting is the high and mighty fuggstick crowd.
Travis
Because what they think can screw the rest of us....that's why I care.
Hitting a stationary piece of paper 9 out of 10 times still won't assure an animal at 500+ yds won't decide to move just as you trip the trigger
Just because "there's an ap for that" doesn't mean most people should try it
Can I see your long range setup? I bet it's UBER.
Travis
snipper just put you on ignore
No.
I just saw no point in answering to something that had nothing to do with what I said
Curious as to why you put people on ignore only to toggle and respond
kind of pointless don't you think?
Even funnier is these types usually are found in the eastern half of the US where, without context of the western 2/3 of the US, hunting is very close range.
Anyone who thinks that has never seen the East Coast
Google "bean field rifles" if you need an education
Well then Snyper, what time of flight do the people who care find acceptable?
You tell me, unless you don't care
You seem to be hallucinating
I'd suggest you aovid firearms all together until you sober up
Boy. You sure seem to know a lot about this topic.
Impressive!
Travis
Once again you prove that all you have to offer is mindless rambling.
Well then Snyper, what time of flight do the people who care find acceptable?
You tell me, unless you don't care
I ought to know better, but...
Time of flight isn't the limiting variable for me. Confidence regarding windage holds me back before a sub second time of flight ever will.
Well then Snyper, what time of flight do the people who care find acceptable?
You tell me, unless you don't care
hmmm
Seems we have some reluctance to answer the question.
I was reading this and thinking to myself - "What is the max flight time that I think is acceptable (for me, nobody else)?"
The immediate answers that popped into my head were that anything less than 0.25 seconds is inconsequential and I'm not comfortable with anything over 1 second.
I decided to check time of flight for my favorite hunting loads and see what the yardage equates to. I found that 1/4 second is about 225yards and 1 second is about 725 yards. Oddly enough, 250 and under is what I consider a gimme - any stationary target, any rest (except offhand) and I'll make that shot. 700 yards is my personal max range based on my range performance (and I'm actually a lot more comfortable with 500 and under). I don't even carry dope for distances beyond 700 because I don't want to tempt myself to shoot beyond my abilities.
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the time of flight that I find to be reasonable almost perfectly coincides with my shooting capabilities.....
David
Personally, I find it more of a challenge putting on the sneak but I'm one of those who absolutely will not take a questionable (to me) shot no matter the circumstances or size of the animal.
Frankly, I don't care how far you shoot so long as you don't Safariman the poor animal...
I think it shows he's a keen observer of wildlife. And knows that a bedded deer won't move.
Most bedded deer eventually get up, which disproves your theory [/quote]
It's not a theory, provided you pull the trigger while they're still lying down.
They can still move, but you're right about one thing.
It's not a theory that they "don't move."
It's a falsehood, and you just hope they
won't move
Well then Snyper, what time of flight do the people who care find acceptable?
You tell me, unless you don't care
I ought to know better, but...
Time of flight isn't the limiting variable for me. Confidence regarding windage holds me back before a sub second time of flight ever will.
There are many variables, and none of them make shooting past 500 yds a good idea most of the time
Killer rig dude! Who painted that cock on the side of it for you?
Travis
hmmm
Seems we have some reluctance to answer the question.
The answer to the question was in my first post, and you agreed with it in yours when you said:
700 yards is my personal max range based on my range performance (and I'm actually a lot more comfortable with 500 and under)
Killer rig dude! Who painted that cock on the side of it for you?
Travis
You really should sober up
I think it shows he's a keen observer of wildlife. And knows that a bedded deer won't move.
Most bedded deer eventually get up, which disproves your theory
It's not a theory, provided you pull the trigger while they're still lying down.
They can still move, but you're right about one thing.
It's not a theory that they "don't move."
It's a falsehood, and you just hope they
won't move [/quote]
Snyper, has anyone ever told you you're an idiot?
Sorry, stupid question, let me re-phrase that:
You're an idiot.
If a deer is bedded and not moving, and your bullet takes well under a second to get there (thanks Canazes, good answer) what do you think the chances of the deer moving such that your bullet misses the vitals are?
what do you think the chances of the deer moving such that your bullet misses the vitals are?
A deer can move enough in half a second to make it a wound instead of a kill.
Calling me an idiot won't change that fact, and just makes you look immature
hmmm
Seems we have some reluctance to answer the question.
The answer to the question was in my first post, and you agreed with it in yours when you said:
700 yards is my personal max range based on my range performance (and I'm actually a lot more comfortable with 500 and under)
Yardage is a distance, not a time.
I gave examples of what I was comfortable with, not what I think anybody else should be comfortable with. I've no doubt that some of the better shooters could make shots at 700+ in field conditions that I could not at 1/2 that distance or less.
David
Yardage is a distance, not a time.
I gave examples of what I was comfortable with, not what I think anybody else should be comfortable with. I've no doubt that some of the better shooters could make shots at 700+ in field conditions that I could not at 1/2 that distance or less.
David
It only took you a minute to match the times and distances
Don't you think I know how to do that too?
Ballistics calulators are everywhere and are simple to use
I don't really care what "some" are capable of.
The fact they gat lucky once in a while doesn't make it a good idea
Reality is MOST aren't nearly as good as they claim to be, and MOST shouldn't be shooting beyond 500 on their best days.
Killer rig dude! Who painted that cock on the side of it for you?
Travis
You really should sober up
KILLER rig...
Travis
All this talk of what could happen in long range shooting is aggravating. Sure something could go amiss, but the stick and stick crowd cripple and loose more animals than any group.. I have notes from one of their seminar's... It was sickening to hear how long it would take an animal that was well hit to die...
I know several long range shooters.. Their animals hit the ground quickly, and at long distance, they can quick put in another hit if need be.
Great discussion guys..I'm really learning a lot, thanks!
The funny thing is, bowhunters today are also "long range" shooters. I remember when 40yds was considered a long shot. Now I hear constant stories of 65yd+ shots on game with a bow.
Yardage is a distance, not a time.
I gave examples of what I was comfortable with, not what I think anybody else should be comfortable with. I've no doubt that some of the better shooters could make shots at 700+ in field conditions that I could not at 1/2 that distance or less.
David
It only took you a minute to match the times and distances
Don't you think I know how to do that too?
Ballistics calulators are everywhere and are simple to use
I don't really care what "some" are capable of.
The fact they gat lucky once in a while doesn't make it a good idea
Reality is MOST aren't nearly as good as they claim to be, and MOST shouldn't be shooting beyond 500 on their best days.
Again you still haven't answered the question. While I'm pleased that you are capable of matching your maximum distance with your load on a ballistics calculator and deducing time of flight, we don't know what that time is because you haven't shared any of that information in this thread.
David
what do you think the chances of the deer moving such that your bullet misses the vitals are?
A deer can move enough in half a second to make it a wound instead of a kill.
Calling me an idiot won't change that fact, and just makes you look immature
You're right, I shouldn't have called you an idiot.
If you think a bedded deer can move enough in a half second to cause a miss, you're actually a moron.
I wonder how much game snyper has killed over 300 yards. Usually the most experienced LR hunters are the least vocal on these forums, and visa versa...
All this talk of what could happen in long range shooting is aggravating. Sure something could go amiss, but the stick and stick crowd cripple and loose more animals than any group.. I have notes from one of their seminar's... It was sickening to hear how long it would take an animal that was well hit to die...
I know several long range shooters.. Their animals hit the ground quickly, and at long distance, they can quick put in another hit if need be.
What happens in bowhunting has nothing to do with this
The fact you "know several long range shooters" is just as meaningless
No one ever brags about the missed or wounded game
Saying they can get a quick second shot BECAUSE it's a long way off makes no sense at all
Yardage is a distance, not a time.
I gave examples of what I was comfortable with, not what I think anybody else should be comfortable with. I've no doubt that some of the better shooters could make shots at 700+ in field conditions that I could not at 1/2 that distance or less.
David
It only took you a minute to match the times and distances
Don't you think I know how to do that too?
Ballistics calulators are everywhere and are simple to use
I don't really care what "some" are capable of.
The fact they get lucky once in a while doesn't make it a good idea
Reality is MOST aren't nearly as good as they claim to be, and MOST shouldn't be shooting beyond 500 on their best days. Again
you still haven't answered the question. While I'm pleased that you are capable of matching your maximum distance with your load on a ballistics calculator and deducing time of flight, we don't know what that time is because you haven't shared any of that information in this thread.
David
I gave an answer twice already
The time is similar to what you posted, as it is with most hunting loads.
Focus more on the point of what I said:
Reality is MOST aren't nearly as good as they claim to be, and MOST shouldn't be shooting beyond 500 on their best days.
Snapper, if you KNEW just half as much as you think you do, you'd be worth the bandwidth. Unfortunately, you don't. Move along and let the hunters and shooters discuss.
Tanner
I
I gave an answer twice already
The time is similar to what you posted, as it is with most hunting loads.
Focus more on the point of what I said:
Reality is MOST aren't nearly as good as they claim to be, and MOST shouldn't be shooting beyond 500 on their best days.
I see no reason to focus on the talking points of someone that doesn't possess a rudimentary understanding of the subject at hand.
David
One must take in to account that the B C azzholes on their high horse are the same bunch that take points deductions for an animals rack if every point is not the same. I believe they are all perfect .
B&C should have just kept their mouth shut on this , not their job. I guess endorsing "long range" reticules is though. Hypocrisy.
Snapper, if you KNEW just half as much as you think you do, you'd be worth the bandwidth. Unfortunately, you don't. Move along and let the hunters and shooters discuss.
Tanner
+1
Snapper, if you KNEW just half as much as you think you do, you'd be worth the bandwidth. Unfortunately, you don't. Move along and let the hunters and shooters discuss.
Tanner
LOL
No one forces you to read my posts
I
I gave an answer twice already
The time is similar to what you posted, as it is with most hunting loads.
Focus more on the point of what I said:
Reality is MOST aren't nearly as good as they claim to be, and MOST shouldn't be shooting beyond 500 on their best days.
I see no reason to focus on the talking points of someone that doesn't possess a rudimentary understanding of the subject at hand.
David
You're correct.
You don't seem to understand the simple statements I've made and you just keep repeating yourself.
Snyper, just for interest sake regarding animals suddenly moving. I simulated your theory or belief earlier on 2 herds of wildebeest, 53 Animals. If I were to hunt any of the 53 Animals at 800 yards (the current load in my rifle would get there in exactly 1 second), not one would have moved in the time frame of the bullet travelling through the air. It is about observing game and understanding how the animals behave that you plan on hunting. In most cases you have a lot more time observing animals in a long range situation as opposed to walking up to it and having to take a quick shot. If you know what you are doing, long range hunting is a lot more calculated than walk and stalk type hunting.
Spend more time outside checking this and you will understand where some of the guys on the forum is coming from.
Pieter
Spend more time outside checking this and you will understand where some of the guys on the forum is coming from
I already know where they are coming from
I said before that most shooters think they are better than they really are.
That changes nothing else I stated
Spend more time outside checking this and you will understand where some of the guys on the forum is coming from
I already know where they are coming from
I said before that most shooters think they are better than they really are.
That changes nothing else I stated
I see now, you know everything and everyone.
I'm way better than you think I am
I see Snyper has the same camera as TAK.
UBER!
Travis
I see now, you know everything and everyone.
I know enough to know what I said is true whether you happen to agree or not.
I see Snyper has the same camera as TAK.
UBER!
Travis
I see you still have nothing worthwhile to add, as usual
I've made it pretty clear you're a lying dumb fugg that wouldn't know a rifle from a hand grenade.
I'd say that's a pretty fine contribution.
Travis
Snapper, if you KNEW just half as much as you think you do, you'd be worth the bandwidth. Unfortunately, you don't. Move along and let the hunters and shooters discuss.
Tanner
LOL
No one forces you to read my posts
No one forces you to post bullschit either, yet here you are.
Labeling is always easier...Shooting critters at distance, I would never do that
I already know where they are coming from
I said before that most shooters think they are better than they really are.
That changes nothing else I stated
No one forces you to post
either, yet here you are.
Why is it bullshit?
Because you don't agree?
Have you proven anything I've said incorrect?
I've made it pretty clear you're a lying dumb fugg that wouldn't know a rifle from a hand grenade.
I'd say that's a pretty fine contribution.
Travis
All that is just in your mind
You really haven't "proven" anything
You just keep on with the mindless rambling
Why don't you point out my "lies" and be specific
How far is to far give me a range stand at that range and give me one shot . Changes the thinking a bit don't it.
Snyper, how much long range shooting do you do?
How about a few details on your long range rig?
Snyper, how much long range shooting do you do?
How about a few details on your long range rig?
Better yet how about a few pictures? It appears that flave is correct again that sniper and tak have the same phantom camera.
Snyper's argument doesn't hold water, the same can and does happen at normal ranges, so what is it he is trying to prve? That no one is perfect? Hell we all knew that.
Snyper's argument doesn't hold water, the same can and does happen at normal ranges, so what is it he is trying to prve?
It's far MORE likely to happen as distance increases, and yet many here keep trying to say it never happens, and they never miss.
How can what I said "not hold water" when you just said the same thing yourself?
The type of guns I own has nothing to do with anything I've said, so asking for pictures of them is just a pointless diversion by those who have yet to disprove anything I've
really said.
Morning dumbfugg!
You should take some pretend cash and buy a pretend bow and go sit in a pretend deer stand next time you pretend to go outdoors. Get back to me on how "likely" the animal is to move when you pretend to see it.
And don't forget that camera!
Travis
['
The type of guns I own has nothing to do with anything I've said, so asking for pictures of them is just a pointless diversion by those who have yet to disprove anything I've really said.
If you don't own a long range rig, then you don't shoot long range. If you don't shoot long range, you have no experience upon which to base your opinion.
It's really simple.
['
The type of guns I own has nothing to do with anything I've said, so asking for pictures of them is just a pointless diversion by those who have yet to disprove anything I've really said.
If you don't own a long range rig, then you don't shoot long range. If you don't shoot long range, you have no experience upon which to base your opinion.
It's really simple.
Exactly, in fact very simple.
There have always been those who oppose the idea of shooting at
animals at long distances. Most of the arguments against it revolve around the same topic, wounding the animal. Most of the
dialog comes from well meaning people who actualy know very little about the subject. Others are control types who feel their
views on things is what we should all follow. Im in my 80th year
walking around this planet. This season will be my 68th hunting
the steep mountains of N. C. PA. For the last 45 of those years
ive been hunting by long range only. My only regret is all the
years it took for me to start doing it. Their are hundreds of others who hunt long range in this region. Many of the deer are
killed by kids or first timers. The same mountain chain runs all
the way south to georgia. I'll invite Snyper to visit me and i'll
show him how wrong he is and why.
What happens in bowhunting has nothing to do with this
Ummm. Sure buddy. Don't want to go there do you? Because it makes your crusade seem extraordinarily stupid? All of us know it is already...
IF time of flight is such an issue with LRH, then it is a HUGE issue with archery.
That being said, a hunter whether stick & string or gun can pretty much tell what an animal is going to do (calm or alert).
Couple of things about archery though is, that animal either knows something is around (sometimes) and is already on alert and or hears the bow firing. Neither is the case with LRH.
what do you think the chances of the deer moving such that your bullet misses the vitals are?
A deer can move enough in half a second to make it a wound instead of a kill.
If you don't own a long range rig, then you don't shoot long range. If you don't shoot long range, you have no experience upon which to base your opinion.
It's really simple.
I see no valid reason to drag my guns out of the safe, take pictures, load them on Photobucket, then load them here, just a couple of dipshits can say, "Well that doesn't prove anything"
You can't refute what I said, so you just want to divert the topic to something meaningless
That being said, a hunter whether stick & string or gun can pretty much tell what an animal is going to do (calm or alert)
You mean "guess and hope", not "tell".
The "pretty much" afirms that point
IF time of flight is such an issue with LRH, then it is a HUGE issue with archery.
Time of flight is just one variable.
Nothing is sure in this life as I am sure you hopefully understand.
To say I am 100% sure am animal is going to do something or not do something would be foolish and full of arrogance.
But experience in the field hunting animals with a bow and with handguns and with rifles you learn a lot about animals behavior when they are acting a certain way.
I am very willing to shoot a bedded animal (and have done so several times) when I am hunting with a handgun or a rifle.
Do you have a problem with that shooting a bedded animal?
Several on here have a lot of years of experience hunting and for some reason I am curious to know about you.
In your desire to show how wrong it is to hunt the way that I do, you are ultimately shooting yourself and your foot. What ends up happening in your posts in all reality is just providing a good education for those who are lurking to know that it is not a bad thing when responsible men and women take to the field probably equipped and properly skilled to hunt animals at distance.
I don't shoot longrange, mostly because I have had the chance to kill animals closer by. I would love to get experienced at long range shooting and hunting, but my time and budget are limited, so I can't do much of it.
What it is ethical or not depends on how trained you are and how capable your combination or equipment and shooter are.
Some people I would not trust with a shot at 30yd despite good equipment. I have also seen shots on moving hogs, with kentucky holding and windage on 4x in the middle of the night, and connect solidly, of course the guy was a sniper instructor among other things.
I have no problem with people shooting long range provided they have the training and skill to make shots count, whether it is 200yds or 1k.
As a side comment on animal movement, observing animals can show if they are on the move, about to move or not. Standing there grazing or bedded is not the same as lazily making their way.
I Peru I get the chance to shoot at 100s of doves flying at cruise speed of 50+mph or with the afterburners on, enough experience and you kill em very dead with the adequate lead. Same applies to rifle, bow or spear throwing, know your capabilities and your equipment.
I do have a camera
![[Linked Image]](http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/Sponxx/20140222_084435_zps4b238213.jpg)
I do have a camera
Hey! Were those things moving when you shot them?
LOL
Nothing is sure in this life as I am sure you hopefully understand.
To say I am 100% sure am animal is going to do something or not do something would be foolish and full of arrogance.
But experience in the field hunting animals with a bow and with handguns and with rifles you learn a lot about animals behavior when they are acting a certain way.
I am very willing to shoot a bedded animal (and have done so several times) when I am hunting with a handgun or a rifle.
Do you have a problem with that shooting a bedded animal?
Several on here have a lot of years of experience hunting and for some reason I am curious to know about you.
In your desire to show how wrong it is to hunt the way that I do, you are ultimately shooting yourself and your foot.
What ends up happening in your posts in all reality is just providing a good education for those who are lurking to know that it is not a bad thing when responsible men and women take to the field probably equipped and properly skilled to hunt animals at distance.
I'm not the one who brought "bedded animals" into the conversation. That's just one of the pointless tangents that have nothing to do with what I really said
I've been hunting for over 50 years.
Is that long enough for you?
I never once said it was "wrong"
That is yet another dramatization of what I really stated
Maybe you should go back and
read my first post, and don't get all defensive about it
As to your last paragraph, everyone thinks THEY are "responsible and properly equipped", whether they really are or not
I bet Safariman thinks his ass shot bear was "responsible", and he was "properly equipped" too
If you don't own a long range rig, then you don't shoot long range. If you don't shoot long range, you have no experience upon which to base your opinion.
It's really simple.
I see no valid reason to drag my guns out of the safe, take pictures, load them on Photobucket, then load them here, just a couple of dipshits can say, "Well that doesn't prove anything"
You can't refute what I said, so you just want to divert the topic to something meaningless
Yes, I can refute what you said. By showing that your opinion has no basis.
In fact, it's done.
I'll file you in the 1 year of experience 50 times category and move on.
Go project your inadequacies on some other group of people who are more likely to buy into your bullshit.
Yes, I can refute what you said. By showing that your opinion has no basis.
In fact, it's done.
Only in your mind.
Not in reality
I'll file you in the 1 year of experience 50 times category and move on.
Go project your inadequacies on some other group of people who are more likely to buy into your bullshit.
LOL
Another psychic, who knows all about m.
I'll pretend I care what you think if it makes you happy
Why not pretend like no one on the long range forum cares what you post?
You sure showed us, go climb up your elevated blind in your [bleep] bean field and notch another year in your experience belt.
You go girl!
Why not pretend like no one on the long range forum cares what you post?
Oh, she does a lot of pretending.
Yes, I can refute what you said. By showing that your opinion has no basis.
In fact, it's done.
Only in your mind.
Not in reality
"Only in your mind?"
That's where your expertise resides. In fact, your expertise is legendary there.
I'm glad to hear you don't think it is wrong.
Defensive? That made me smile.
FWIW-Who and how is it determined who is "responsible and properly equipped?"
Please explain.
I never once said it was "wrong"
That is yet another dramatization of what I really stated
Maybe you should go back and read my first post, and don't get all defensive about it
As to your last paragraph, everyone thinks THEY are "responsible and properly equipped", whether they really are or not
Originally Posted By: Ringman
Quote:
I'll pretend....
Why not pretend like no one on the long range forum cares what you post?
Why not pretend like no one on the long range forum cares what you post?
Oh, she does a lot of pretending.
You choose to read it.
Don't whine about it when you do
Childish insults show just how mature you are
I'm glad to hear you don't think it is wrong.
Defensive? That made me smile.
FWIW-Who and how is it determined who is "responsible and properly equipped?"
Please explain.
Yes, defensive, as evidenced by your replies
Most think they are "responsible and properly equipped" whether they are or not.
It's your phrase, not mine, so it's not up to me to explain it.
With all the name calling and insults, no one has been able to show where anything I stated is incorrect.
They are just all whining because they don't like any opinion not matching theirs
They are just all whining because they don't like any opinion not matching theirs
That's not it. "They" don't like any opinion that's not backed up with experience. Or any other basis.
So a guy with a LR username hangs out in the long range hunting forum and bashes long range and the guys that are adept at it. mtmuley
Don't let Take a Pee take you guys too far.
Travis
So a guy with a LR username hangs out in the long range hunting forum and bashes long range and the guys that are adept at it. mtmuley
Evidently you didn't read what I
really said either.
I'm not surprised though.
It's easier to make it about me than to admit what I REALLY SAID is true.
I hope you all shoot better than you read
Why do you pretend you were a sniper?
Travis
Why do you pretend you were a sniper?
Travis
I never have.
Why do you lie?
Typically to get out of a bad situation.
Travis
Typically to get out of a bad situation.
Travis
So lying about me to divert the topic gets you out of havng to admit what I have said is true.
I think I'll just put you back on ignore since it's pointless to attempt a rational conversation with an admitted liar
[quote]I
FWIW-Who and how is it determined who is "responsible and properly equipped?"
Please explain.[/quote
Still looking for your explanation of what is responsible and what are the limits: right and wrong as far as distance on game?
What you said is not true. Prove that it is. The onus is not on everybody else to disprove your wild claims, but on you to prove and support them with evidence and reasonable logic. Unfortunately reason and logic are typically the result of experience, which is something you haven't given us any reason to believe that you have, so your claims are without credibility or authority. How many animals have you killed beyond 400 yards? How often to you shoot targets beyond that distance? Do you own any purpose-built rifles set up for LR shooting?
On average, long-range shooters put more time, primers, and preparation into LR shots, and miss or wound less than average-Joe short-range shooters who shoot a couple boxes of ammo a year and take whatever shot they are offered, including running shots. These same average-Joe shooters tend not to wound at long range, they miss entirely. To use a line from your book- prove me wrong. But try using reason and evidence this time. I'll agree with you that most self-proclaimed LR shooters are over-equipped and under-prepared, as are most average Joe hunters, but there is a group of proficient LR shooters, and many of them hang out in this very forum.
So lying about me to divert the topic gets you out of havng to admit what I have said is true.
I think I'll just put you back on ignore since it's pointless to attempt a rational conversation with an admitted liar
No, no you silly goose. I have no need to lie about you. I already know you're a twerp with a receding hairline that never hunts.
But you asked why I lie. And like most people, I do it to get out of bad situations.
KILLER pics!
Travis
On average, long-range shooters put more time, primers, and preparation into LR shots, and miss or wound less than average-Joe short-range shooters who shoot a couple boxes of ammo a year and take whatever shot they are offered, including running shots. These same average-Joe shooters tend not to wound at long range, they miss entirely. To use a line from your book- prove me wrong. But try using reason and evidence this time.
Jordan, you are an experienced guy, that is inarguable to me. I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this. It seems that with most LR guys I read here on the fire, they fail to admit that they are totally at the mercy of the wind no matter how much ammo they burn. My buddies up in the TX Panhandle personally see the best snipers in the world shoot steel, targets, and prarie dogs, at extended ranges past 1000m. The ever present, inconsistent wind wreaks havoc with the very best shooters in the world, as they often time, very often, miss the mark the first shot or two, due to not being able to figure the dope, obviously. If it happens to these guys, it happens to any LR shooter anywhere. That's my reason for not totally drinking the koolaid. Now, when there's little to no wind, or a consistent wind (seldom), different story. You don't want these guys shooting at you no matter what.
There is no way to prove if LR shooters wound more or less than regular shooters, no way. Also, exactly none of these snipers are using conventional (Swaro, Leica, Zeiss, Leupy, Nikon, Bushy, etc) rangefinders. They also shoot as a team. There's not one guy "swagging it" like lots of LR hunting wannabes do. The wind dictates the result, every single time.
Wind has always been the Achilles heel of LR hunting and shooting.
When I am shooting further, I am more relaxed or calm, than when archery hunting and the animal is right up on me. I have to work harder to get in "shoot mode" and stay calm when close up.
On average, long-range shooters put more time, primers, and preparation into LR shots, and miss or wound less than average-Joe short-range shooters who shoot a couple boxes of ammo a year and take whatever shot they are offered, including running shots. These same average-Joe shooters tend not to wound at long range, they miss entirely. To use a line from your book- prove me wrong. But try using reason and evidence this time.
Jordan, you are an experienced guy, that is inarguable to me. I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this. It seems that with most LR guys I read here on the fire, they fail to admit that they are totally at the mercy of the wind no matter how much ammo they burn. My buddies up in the TX Panhandle personally see the best snipers in the world shoot steel, targets, and prarie dogs, at extended ranges past 1000m. The ever present, inconsistent wind wreaks havoc with the very best shooters in the world, as they often time, very often, miss the mark the first shot or two, due to not being able to figure the dope, obviously. If it happens to these guys, it happens to any LR shooter anywhere. That's my reason for not totally drinking the koolaid. Now, when there's little to no wind, or a consistent wind (seldom), different story. You don't want these guys shooting at you no matter what.
There is no way to prove if LR shooters wound more or less than regular shooters, no way. Also, exactly none of these snipers are using conventional (Swaro, Leica, Zeiss, Leupy, Nikon, Bushy, etc) rangefinders. They also shoot as a team. There's not one guy "swagging it" like lots of LR hunting wannabes do. The wind dictates the result, every single time.
They are practicing and learning wind calls. I will only shoot at an animal at long using wind calls that I am sure of. Example if in Idaho shooting in up drafts and down draft that I am unfamiliar with I do not take that shot. Nothing forces me to shoot when uncertain.
On average, long-range shooters put more time, primers, and preparation into LR shots, and miss or wound less than average-Joe short-range shooters who shoot a couple boxes of ammo a year and take whatever shot they are offered, including running shots. These same average-Joe shooters tend not to wound at long range, they miss entirely..............but there is a group of proficient LR shooters, and many of them hang out in this very forum.
I agree completely.
JGRaider,
What is your long range experience besides talking to "snipers"?
What you said is not true.
Copy and paste the things I've said that are false
I'll agree with you that most self-proclaimed LR shooters are over-equipped and under-prepared, as are most average Joe hunters, but there is a group of proficient LR shooters, and many of them hang out in this very forum.
Then YOU are saying
what I said is true.
[quote=Snyper]
I
FWIW-Who and how is it determined who is "responsible and properly equipped?"
Please explain.[/quote
Still looking for your explanation of what is responsible and what are the limits: right and wrong as far as distance on game?
I already replied to that
please humor me and list it again.
please humor me and list it again.
It's still there
Scroll back
And while you're scrolling back, read some of the posts, and tell me if they sound more like "responsible" adults, or juvenile delinquints
I finally made a decision. I don't know what Snyper posted.
Apparently he doesn't either.
This is your excerpts from the first three pages (Below), which apply to distance hunting
One of the center-grip specialty pistols I use to hunt at distance is a 7mm SAUM. It runs a 162 A-Max around 2579 fps. At 500 yards it takes about .6 of a second to get to target.
I usually start practicing with the XP at either 400 or 500 yards on 10� steel in a variety of wind conditions. This my short range practice distance-A starting place, regardless of conditions.
I have some buds here locally that do the same thing, but with the 5� plates.
It seems like your biggest angst of LR hunting (500+ yards) is time of flight, plus the belief that there doesn�t seem to be many skilled people at this distance when field shooting under the pressure of making a killing shot on an animal.
You also seem too severely doubt other�s judgments in the field on whether they should shoot or not.
You may have other �variables� that you did not detail.
In archery you are going to have about the same time of flight in a 40 yard shot. I understand there are a lot of variable here with different poundage and arrow weight.
As mentioned earlier, if an animal knows someone is around they are going to be more alert, plus the fact of the sound of the bow firing can be a huge issue. These are not big issues for LR hunting.
Interested what your ethics are for archery and blackpowder shooters.
I wouldn�t be surprised if you are totally against archery hunting, because of the possibility of a game animal jumping the string or ducking, causing a miss or bad shot when they hear the bow firing.
There is no such thing as a sure thing, but animal behavior is predictable when they are calm/undisturbed. In other words, I wouldn�t be considering a shot at distance, if two deer are playing and jumping all over the place. This involves taking the time to observe behavior. It can be done effectively.
If I am convinced I will make the shot or I would be shocked if I missed, that is a green light for me.
Maybe not for you-That is your call. Can I still miss? You betcha!
This (Go or No GO) is in play when I hunt with a bow, revolver, specialty pistol or revolver.
Fact is, hunting involves a series of judgment calls.
I am a deliberate shooter.
Just last week I passed on a 112 yard shot on a small pig with a revolver, because I could not get steady enough to ensure a kill. After they went into cover I figured out a way to get steady, but they didn�t come back.
If you assume one can�t be sub MOA at 100 yards (Or Minute Of Piglet-hence even a larger group) with a revolver in a sitting field shooting position, you would be mistaken.
I don�t know whether or not you do not trust others to do what you can�t do (for whatever reason, field shooting skills, weapons purpose built for LR, practice time at distance, etc�) or you just have limits in your head that past this �XYZ� distance it is wrong, regardless. Maybe you have had a bad experience or witnessed others making bad calls.
The good thing is we don�t get to decide for you and you don�t to decide for me what is right.
I will continue to hunt at distance, when I am in the mood and have had the practice level for me to go to that �XYZ� distance under certain field conditions and physical/emotional conditions.
There are some years I just have not had enough time behind the gun to shoot the same distances I did the year before in similar conditions. I am far less concerned about animal movement than I am switchy wind. If animals are bouncing around, it doesn�t matter what the wind is doing-it is a no go.
Although I am writing this to you Snyper, I am really posting this for those who are reasonable lurkers, so they can see both sides of the story and then make their own decision. People with extreme prejudices one way or the other will not be swayed by either side.
Personally, I have seen slob hunting in all disciplines, but the poor marksmanship in field conditions with many short range hunters is beyond the pale. I know of too many times where a guy buys a rifle at the gun store buy his box of ammo, has the gun store bore sight it for him and feels equipped to make that 100-200 yard shot-EEK! Or has different brands of ammo with different bullet weights and can�t figure out why his rifle isn�t shooting minute of 55 gallon barrel.
The LR hunters I know personally, spend a lot of time and money to make sure they are at the top of their game.
I want skilled field shooters, regardless of their discipline or type of hunting or distance.
I spend time helping others get started or improve their field shooting from where it currently is.
With the passion you have shown here, I would hope to assume you regularly help teach others.
I do not expect to change your opinions with this post.
You have pretty much got what you wanted, when you jumped into this discussion on the �LR� part of this forum. To expect anything less would have been foolish or gullible. It seems that you enjoy the banter (I could be wrong there).
At the same time you have not revealed your weapons, skill set, or the way you practice.
You have been sniping from the shadows so to speak, while at least some of the ones who have replied to you, have posted in great detail (they have a number of posts in this section of the forum), which is open to any to see.
You stated:
�Reality is MOST aren't nearly as good as they claim to be, and MOST shouldn't be shooting beyond 500 on their best days.�
I�m not sure what percentage is with your �MOST,� but it is good to know that you ARE NOT OPPOSED to LR hunters over 500 yards who are skilled.
I�m sure the guys that ARE SKILLED here are pleased that you are on their side.
For the ones I know who are skilled, they really don�t care what others think.
SNYPER�s POSTS:
�Hitting a stationary piece of paper 9 out of 10 times still won't assure an animal at 500+ yds won't decide to move just as you trip the trigger
Just because "there's an ap for that" doesn't mean most people should try it.
Your lack of concern doesn't change the possibility of them moving
It merely shows you don't care
They can still move, but you're right about one thing.
It's not a theory that they "don't move."
It's a falsehood, and you just hope they won't move
There are many variables, and none of them make shooting past 500 yds a good idea most of the time
A deer can move enough in half a second to make it a wound instead of a kill.
Reality is MOST aren't nearly as good as they claim to be, and MOST shouldn't be shooting beyond 500 on their best days.�
On average, long-range shooters put more time, primers, and preparation into LR shots, and miss or wound less than average-Joe short-range shooters who shoot a couple boxes of ammo a year and take whatever shot they are offered, including running shots. These same average-Joe shooters tend not to wound at long range, they miss entirely..............but there is a group of proficient LR shooters, and many of them hang out in this very forum.
I agree completely.
JGRaider,
What is your long range experience besides talking to "snipers"?
About 500 rounds out of my 7mags out to 900yds, at targets. BTW, no need to put quotes around "snipers", as they really are snipers, the military variety, including Israelis and Canadians. Why?
Those Israelis and Canadians are bad ass.
Travis
Why do you pretend you were a sniper?
Travis
You've got it all wrong, he never pretended that.
He pretended to be a "snyper."
Those Israelis and Canadians are bad ass.
Travis
May surprise you to learn that the Canadians have the best of the best equipment available. They spare no expense. Surprised me anyway.
Israelis fight with their noses. Canadians use hockey sticks.
Fact.
Travis
The problem is, most Canadians are not as good with a hockey stick as they think they are.
I�m not sure what percentage is with your �MOST,� but it is good to know that you ARE NOT OPPOSED to LR hunters over 500 yards who are skilled.
You seem to be one of the very few here who has some reading comprehension skills.
That's why I kept telling people to READ
what I REALLY saidSadly , most just piled on with the juvenile insults and off topic tangents, as well as a few outright lies
(I noticed you still didn't say which, if any, of my statements were false. You just don't like most of them)
I finally made a decision. I don't know what Snyper posted.
Apparently he doesn't either.
Don't blame me because YOU can't figure out what I said.
It's all still there, so you can read it again slowly
On average, long-range shooters put more time, primers, and preparation into LR shots, and miss or wound less than average-Joe short-range shooters who shoot a couple boxes of ammo a year and take whatever shot they are offered, including running shots. These same average-Joe shooters tend not to wound at long range, they miss entirely..............but there is a group of proficient LR shooters, and many of them hang out in this very forum.
I agree completely.
JGRaider,
What is your long range experience besides talking to "snipers"?
About 500 rounds out of my 7mags out to 900yds, at targets. BTW, no need to put quotes around "snipers", as they really are snipers, the military variety, including Israelis and Canadians. Why?
That's fine.
Just wanting to know your long range experience too. Many, as has been pointed out here, have no experience and simply parrot what they've "heard" about the game. (note the quotes).
I shoot with real snipers as well. Just because they are snipers doesn't mean they can shoot, believe me.
Google Todd Hodnett and his operation. Not exactly the minor leagues.
Seeing you confirm you are not against LR hunting per say, as long as people are skilled, is good enough for me as far as dealing with the basic issue.
The number of years hunted or animals killed doesn't say a thing about either skill or wisdom.
You have continued to be vague or ignore questions about yourself.
I have not seen you respond to my questions about specifics in regards to archery hunting (comments I have directly made to you), the types of hunting and shooting you do and the distances.
What is your max distance for hunting (animal hunted) in ideal conditions?
Have you practiced at LR shooting?
What kind of rifle /chambering / optic/ prone or from the bench
If so, what were the regular starting and max distances?
Would you make archery hunting illegal in your state if you had the power to do so?
If not, why not?
I�m not sure what percentage is with your �MOST,� but it is good to know that you ARE NOT OPPOSED to LR hunters over 500 yards who are skilled.
(I noticed you still didn't say which, if any, of my statements were false. You just don't like most of them)
There's no question that what you say is true. It's all about the wind.
But when a guy can hone his skills enough with an accurate rifle and load with confirmed drops, develops wind-reading skills from experience, and chooses his shots that he knows he can make, I will go as far as to guarantee you that he wounds FAR LESS from 500 to 1000 yards than Joe Blow who shoots a box a year does from 0 to 100.
On average, long-range shooters put more time, primers, and preparation into LR shots, and miss or wound less than average-Joe short-range shooters who shoot a couple boxes of ammo a year and take whatever shot they are offered, including running shots. These same average-Joe shooters tend not to wound at long range, they miss entirely. To use a line from your book- prove me wrong. But try using reason and evidence this time.
Jordan, you are an experienced guy, that is inarguable to me. I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this. It seems that with most LR guys I read here on the fire, they fail to admit that they are totally at the mercy of the wind no matter how much ammo they burn. My buddies up in the TX Panhandle personally see the best snipers in the world shoot steel, targets, and prarie dogs, at extended ranges past 1000m. The ever present, inconsistent wind wreaks havoc with the very best shooters in the world, as they often time, very often, miss the mark the first shot or two, due to not being able to figure the dope, obviously. If it happens to these guys, it happens to any LR shooter anywhere. That's my reason for not totally drinking the koolaid. Now, when there's little to no wind, or a consistent wind (seldom), different story. You don't want these guys shooting at you no matter what.
There is no way to prove if LR shooters wound more or less than regular shooters, no way. Also, exactly none of these snipers are using conventional (Swaro, Leica, Zeiss, Leupy, Nikon, Bushy, etc) rangefinders. They also shoot as a team. There's not one guy "swagging it" like lots of LR hunting wannabes do. The wind dictates the result, every single time.
JG,
I can completely see where you're coming from, but I have a couple of points to make...
- The wind is THE enemy to making LR hits. But fortunately the more primers you pop in the wind, the more clear your understanding of what effect a given wind condition has on a given bullet, and your future estimates of net wind drift become more precise and more accurate. Probably the most valuable result of this "education", is that it teaches a LR guy when he shouldn't shoot
- Distances beyond 1000m are typically considered ER (extreme-range) hunting. LR hunting if often considered between 500 or 600 and 1000 yards. Making first-round hits at extreme range requires a whole different level of "education", and for this reason a sighter shot 100 feet to the side of the animal is common place in this kind of hunting
- My observations about SR guys missing and wounding more often than LR guys are based off my own experience, witnessing my buds and other LR guys that I know, and many, many average-Joe hunters that I've hunted with. It makes sense that LR guys miss and wound less, since by definition if they are really into LR, they have invested a lot of effort, money, and time into honing the art, and are more likely to be picky about taking shots within their abilities. The average hunter may only take a couple of days off a year for shooting/hunting, and they typically want to make those days count by shooting whatever legal animal they see, regardless of shot presentation, the animal running or standing still, etc. There are a LOT of guys that will take a shot at running game without a second thought, which has a WAY higher likelihood of missing/wounding than a LR guy taking his time to gauge the wind drift in a 10 mph wind and carefully taking a shot, usually without the time pressure of a running shot at a fleeting critter. It all comes down to a guy knowing his limitations. Usually LR guys have spent enough time and primers to be well-familiar with theirs, while the average-Joe often doesn't know what his limitations are, and doesn't care to find out until he's actually shooting at game. Keep in mind that the posters here on 24H are not the guys that make up the bulk of what I'm calling the average-Joe hunter
RC,Jordan, well said, and I understand where you're coming from.
What you said is not true.
Copy and paste the things I've said that are false
I'll agree with you that most self-proclaimed LR shooters are over-equipped and under-prepared, as are most average Joe hunters, but there is a group of proficient LR shooters, and many of them hang out in this very forum.
Then YOU are saying
what I said is true.
I didn't attach an arbitrary distance to my statement, and I also said "self-proclaimed LR shooters", which includes the massive group of people these days that fork out their $5,000 and think they are an instant LR shooter...
The problem is, most Canadians are not as good with a hockey stick as they think they are.
I can freely admit I'm not all that good with a hockey stick. Put a rifle in my hands and I feel much more at home.
There's no sense in trying to argue with these LR guys. They are always going to compare their hit record to the "Average Joe" hunter to justify their selfish methods. Most of the proponents have but a few kills (and several wounds or misses) at long range to back up their methodology. It's just not worth your energy.
Funny thing is, I've seen little in the way of evidence about LR guys actually practicing more than normal range guys, despite the claims to the contrary.
I finally made a decision. I don't know what Snyper posted.
Apparently he doesn't either.
Don't blame me because YOU can't figure out what I said.
It's all still there, so you can read it again slowly
I figured it out, you just can't seem to remember is the point.
PG,
What kind of proof do you want?
Judging from what I have witnessed in the antelope prairie around here Jordan makes an excellent point. Watching the one week a year guys come to this area and pound away at antelope,is disheartenening. If they own rangefinders they ain't using them and the amount of shots on moving game at distances they are shooting from the stand or one elbow over the hood are ridiculous. Antelope seem to attract poor shooting skills because of the wide open spaces, the wind and their coloration makes them appear bigger(closer) then they are. What are the thought processes of people trying to shoot antelope at 500-600 yds in a 25mph switchy breeze that are running say 45 mph........they are thinking heck I got these tags ,I paid good money, I am gonna at least let them antelope know I am here???????
Sad but true. Somehow pronghorns seem to bring out the worst in people.
Judging from what I have witnessed in the antelope prairie around here Jordan makes an excellent point. Watching the one week a year guys come to this area and pound away at antelope,is disheartenening. If they own rangefinders they ain't using them and the amount of shots on moving game at distances they are shooting from the stand or one elbow over the hood are ridiculous. Antelope seem to attract poor shooting skills because of the wide open spaces, the wind and their coloration makes them appear bigger(closer) then they are. What are the thought processes of people trying to shoot antelope at 500-600 yds in a 25mph switchy breeze that are running say 45 mph........they are thinking heck I got these tags ,I paid good money, I am gonna at least let them antelope know I am here???????
Yep, been there done that many moons ago...didn't shoot at running game or wound anything but after taking three shots on my first antelope hunt and hitting nothing I paced off the distance to an approximate land mark where the antelope were. I stopped after 500 and still hadn't gotten to the spot. Wizened up, regrouped and set up on a ridge above some does at 180yrds and made the kill from prone.
One needs to do their homework.
You have continued to be vague or ignore questions about yourself.
I have not seen you respond to my questions about specifics in regards to archery hunting (comments I have directly made to you), the types of hunting and shooting you do and the distances.
What is your max distance for hunting (animal hunted) in ideal conditions?
Have you practiced at LR shooting?
What kind of rifle /chambering / optic/ prone or from the bench
If so, what were the regular starting and max distances?
Would you make archery hunting illegal in your state if you had the power to do so?
If not, why not?
I've already said none of those answers would change the reality of what I stated.
I'm not playing the "I've shot more than you" or the "my rifle is better than yours" games
The thread is NOT about me, and nothing I said would be changed by anything
It's funny how the LR crowd is saying many hunters can't hit at SHORT range, but attack me when I said
MOST hunters shouldnt shoot at LONG range.
Prarie Goat got it 100% right:
There's no sense in trying to argue with these LR guys. They are always going to compare their hit record to the "Average Joe" hunter to justify their selfish methods.
Most of the proponents have but a few kills (and several wounds or misses) at long range to back up their methodology.
It's just not worth your energy.
Funny thing is, I've seen little in the way of evidence about LR guys actually practicing more than normal range guys, despite the claims to the contrary.
First, who said anything about rifles-Ha!
Two, exactly the answer I sadly expected, but thank you for giving it.
There's no sense in trying to argue with these LR guys. They are always going to compare their hit record to the "Average Joe" hunter to justify their selfish methods. Most of the proponents have but a few kills (and several wounds or misses) at long range to back up their methodology. It's just not worth your energy.
Funny thing is, I've seen little in the way of evidence about LR guys actually practicing more than normal range guys, despite the claims to the contrary.
Another funny thing is that there are guys with little or no long range experience who actually think the garbage you just posted is true.
When you don't know how it's done, the above just has to be true, right? I mean, it's impossible stuff to be able to deliver a bullet with that kind of precision with all of the variables involved at the ranges those dudes talk about. It's more luck than anything, right?
Get a grip.
You ought to start a thread asking for long range hunter's/shooter's truths. How many have they wounded and at what range? How much shooting do they actually do and ask them prove it with some type of verifiable data like piles of spent brass and primers. How often do they wear out a barrel? Maybe even ask them to show you their results from long range competition and how many competitions have they attended. How frequently do they do so?
You may actually learn something about it and have to stop making [bleep] up.
Another funny thing is that there are guys with little or no long range experience who actually think the garbage you just posted is true.
When you don't know how it's done, the above just has to be true, right? I mean, it's impossible stuff to be able to deliver a bullet with that kind of precision with all of the variables involved at the ranges those dudes talk about. It's more luck than anything, right?
Get a grip.
You ought to start a thread asking for long range hunter's/shooter's truths. How many have they wounded and at what range? How much shooting do they actually do and ask them prove it with some type of verifiable data like piles of spent brass and primers. How often do they wear out a barrel? Maybe even ask them to show you their results from long range competition and how many competitions have they attended. How frequently do they do so?
You may actually learn something about it and have to stop making [bleep] up.
Guys that don't shoot haven't a clue. You see when you shoot and actually shoot a lot your buy your components like this..
![[Linked Image]](http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae35/Heavywalker/Mobile%20Uploads/picture000_zps5fac7063.jpg)
And you wear out barrels like this...
![[Linked Image]](http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae35/Heavywalker/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/F15AC22A-40BA-4512-8826-2BF3E39AE471_zpsk9no1wpf.jpg)
...But I am sure you hard chargers know about me and my capabilities through your own "experience". Laffin'
Awesome stuff heavy....! Thing is, you'd need every one of those bullets out here mule deer hunting with me, shooting 500-700 yds in those 20-30mph variable and swirling winds.
Awesome stuff heavy....! Thing is, you'd need every one of those bullets out here mule deer hunting with me, shooting 500-700 yds in those 20-30mph variable and swirling winds.
Yeah, here is the thing, I wouldn't take that shot. All that shooting shows you what you shouldn't do just as much as it shows you what you can do.
Well said!
Yeah, here is the thing, I wouldn't take that shot. All that shooting shows you what you shouldn't do just as much as it shows you what you can do.
Well said!
Yeah, here is the thing, I wouldn't take that shot. All that shooting shows you what you shouldn't do just as much as it shows you what you can do.
I think, that actually make the points both of B&C and Mr. Stecker.
Well said.
Its all about performance envelope. Taking a plane outside its, gets you killed. Taking your rifle/bow and yourself outside theirs, gets misses or, worse, wounds an animal.
Trick is to know before the shot if one is able to do it - on that day, under prevailing conditions, with the equipment at hand.
Really - not a long range proposition. Much more a core hunting situation judgement.
First, who said anything about rifles-Ha!
Two, exactly the answer I sadly expected, but thank you for giving it.
So change "rifles" to guns.
It makes no difference, and I have both
It should be the expected answer, since I had already given it more than once, but you kept repeating yourself
More and more I'm beginning to see the LR crowd seems to be doing it for the ego trip
It is truly a judgment call based upon experience.
Two deer last week from sitting positions with distances under 400 yards. Same set-up with BOG-GEAR's HD-3 Tri-Pod and their PSR top (Center-grip XP-100). On the shot that was over 350 yards I was able to get bone support with my elbow and knee, while on the shorter shot 164 yards, I couldn't get bone support. I took me longer to get steady on the shorter shot, but I finally did. The longest shot deer ran 30 yards (quartering shot/1 shoulder double lung)before giving it up and the short range one (broadside/double shoulder) jumped straight up and then went straight down.
I was told by the hunt club to go for shoulder shots because of the heavy cover were around, to avoid bringing out the tracking dogs.
Had I not been able to get a solid rest with the longer one, I would have had to pass. Prone they would have been both gimmee's. Neither deer were alerted to my presence.
Well said!
Yeah, here is the thing, I wouldn't take that shot. All that shooting shows you what you shouldn't do just as much as it shows you what you can do.
I think, that actually make the points both of B&C and Mr. Stecker.
Well said.
Its all about performance envelope. Taking a plane outside its, gets you killed. Taking your rifle/bow and yourself outside theirs, gets misses or, worse, wounds an animal.
Trick is to know before the shot if one is able to do it - on that day, under prevailing conditions, with the equipment at hand.
Really - not a long range proposition. Much more a core hunting situation judgement.
Yep, I have passed on 600 yard shot because wind and conditions were not right, and the next day under good conditions I made a shot on a different bull at 1031 yards. Result 1 elk dead within 30 seconds of pulling the trigger and zero wounded elk.
EGO no. Your high horse has your head in the clouds. All the LR guys I shoot with could not be more humble.
Stop showing them where all the powder has been going.
I wouldn't take that shot! I am posing a question not an opinion. Yesterday I shot 60 rounds at a 4'x4' piece of cardboard w/ a 1" grid drawn on it. When I started wind was full value at 10 mph or less and I kept everything w/in 6" at 420 lasered yards. The 1st 60 rounds I felt like the international sniper. The wind started gusting hard and I had to put on a jacket due to the wind chill. My vertical didn't change much but I couldn't guess the wind w/in 12" even w/ tall grass showing the difference. Questions 1] shoot at shorter distances or lighter winds. 2] How the hell do you guess the wind? I am shooting a 308 w/ 168 gr SMK.
mike r
We live in tree country and the tops of the little furs tell you how hard . Also twenty five years of looking at them helps after some time you can just tell. If they are bent to much don't shoot and so on. Heavy might be able to give more insight but this is my take.
There are lots of little signs that show you what the wind is doing- the grass, the leaves, the mirage, the cloud movement overhead, even the lay of the land will tell an experienced guy what kind of wind to expect. Morning and evening have different wind currents in high country. Of course, a good wind meter will tell you what the wind at the shooter's location is doing, and it is a good way for a guy that's new to wind reading to learn what a 5 mph wind feels and looks like, versus a 15 mph wind, etc. Also remember that wind in the open air moves a bit quicker than wind moving along the ground, so even if your wind meter shows 10 mph on the edge of a canyon, it's likely going a bit quicker in the middle of the canyon between the two sides, which your bullet has to pass through.
The best way to learn how to read the wind, is to get a few tips and pointers, and then shoot, shoot, and shoot some more.
I wouldn't take that shot! I am posing a question not an opinion. Yesterday I shot 60 rounds at a 4'x4' piece of cardboard w/ a 1" grid drawn on it. When I started wind was full value at 10 mph or less and I kept everything w/in 6" at 420 lasered yards. The 1st 60 rounds I felt like the international sniper. The wind started gusting hard and I had to put on a jacket due to the wind chill. My vertical didn't change much but I couldn't guess the wind w/in 12" even w/ tall grass showing the difference. Questions 1] shoot at shorter distances or lighter winds. 2] How the hell do you guess the wind? I am shooting a 308 w/ 168 gr SMK.
mike r
When you shoot a .308 with that bullet, that's what you get! A .308 Win is a MAJOR handicap at long range in any type of wind
All competitions have a ".308" class so they don't have to shoot against ballistically superior calibers
Not arguing, just discussing...........
Ever wonder why the LR competition dudes use wind flags...at the bench, the target, and in between? Often times the wind at the target and bench are different. Big problem.
I certainly didn't realize a .308 was such a LR handicap.
Not arguing, just discussing...........
Ever wonder why the LR competition dudes use wind flags...at the bench, the target, and in between? Often times the wind at the target and bench are different. Big problem.
I certainly didn't realize a .308 was such a LR handicap.
It's a BIG TIME handicap.
If you think wind flags are a part of REAL long range competition, it really tells me quite a bit.
Wind flags are used in GAY long range competitions like F-Class and Benchrest. In any Practical Rifle Match or Precision Match there are no wind flags. It's real shooting that is as close to hunting as there is. The competitor uses his experience to call wind. One shot per target only. No sighters.
A .308 Win is a MAJOR handicap at long range in any type of wind
RC, what caliber and cartridge do you prefer for these longrange jaunts?
Wind flags are used in GAY long range competitions like F-Class and Benchrest.
Wow. You really need to get over that inferiority complex.
I fear long range is often a choice, not a necessity, and there's the rub. A typical situation is:
Hunt is situated with the objective of a long range shot.
Pass up a critter at short range because it's anticlimactic.
Miss (hopefully clean) a shot or two at a long range.
Connect at long range then boast of the shot.
Is this a fear or known fact for you?
It certainly is possible though.
I have taken big game out past 1K with a XP-100, yet my last two animals were at 164 and 363 respectively. I take animals at short, medium, and long ranges.
The situation is a fact, the fear is "often", though I am careful not to condemn it. Its my "rub", others proceed as they feel right. The tables could be turned on archery. A rifle would make for a more efficient kill.
Is this a fear or known fact for you?
It certainly is possible though.
I have taken big game out past 1K with a XP-100, yet my last two animals were at 164 and 363 respectively. I take animals at short, medium, and long ranges.
+1
I take the best possible shot I'm presented with, but I like to have as many tools in my tool box as possible- with the option to take short, medium, or long-range shots.
Is this a fear or known fact for you?
It certainly is possible though.
I have taken big game out past 1K with a XP-100, yet my last two animals were at 164 and 363 respectively. I take animals at short, medium, and long ranges.
+1
I take the best possible shot I'm presented with, but I like to have as many tools in my tool box as possible- with the option to take short, medium, or long-range shots.
Exactly. The Long Rangeophobs are quite a few tools short of a tool box
A .308 Win is a MAJOR handicap at long range in any type of wind
RC, what caliber and cartridge do you prefer for these longrange jaunts?
Long range is about BC. Pick a caliber with high BC bullet availability and the cartrige capable of sending it as fast as possible.
There are many good choices.
I shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor and a .300 Winchester Magnum in competition. I also have rifles chambered for the same to hunt with.
While speaking of that, there's a lot to be said for having hunting rifles and competiton rifles in the same cartridge. Same goes with setting them up with the same scope or at least the same reticle. I shoot a heck of a lot more with competiton guns than my hunting guns. You become very "in tune" with drop and drift. Makes transitioning to your hunting rifle seem like you haven't changed much and, I believe, will lead to better shooting at long range in the field.
Very much like taking your well-fitted sporting clays gun on a dove hunt.
Carnage!
Wind flags are used in GAY long range competitions like F-Class and Benchrest.
Wow. You really need to get over that inferiority complex.
Don't they actually use feather boas for the "wind flag"?
LOL
Is this a fear or known fact for you?
It certainly is possible though.
I have taken big game out past 1K with a XP-100, yet my last two animals were at 164 and 363 respectively. I take animals at short, medium, and long ranges.
+1
I take the best possible shot I'm presented with, but I like to have as many tools in my tool box as possible- with the option to take short, medium, or long-range shots.
Exactly. The Long Rangeophobs are quite a few tools short of a tool box
A .308 Win is a MAJOR handicap at long range in any type of wind
RC, what caliber and cartridge do you prefer for these longrange jaunts?
Long range is about BC. Pick a caliber with high BC bullet availability and the cartrige capable of sending it as fast as possible.
There are many good choices.
I shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor and a .300 Winchester Magnum in competition. I also have rifles chambered for the same to hunt with.
While speaking of that, there's a lot to be said for having hunting rifles and competiton rifles in the same cartridge. Same goes with setting them up with the same scope or at least the same reticle. I shoot a heck of a lot more with competiton guns than my hunting guns. You become very "in tune" with drop and drift. Makes transitioning to your hunting rifle seem like you haven't changed much and, I believe, will lead to better shooting at long range in the field.
Very much like taking your well-fitted sporting clays gun on a dove hunt.
Carnage!
Exactly.
Wow, I learn something new here every day. Now I've learned that wind flags are gay and useless......Thanks for the information fellas!
I also think I know that a .308 will have several times the barrel life of a 300mag, but Tubb and Hodnett are probably dead wrong about that too. Please clue me in as to how FOS I am on this theory.
So JG,
I know you don't hunt at long range, but all the guys you know who do check a wind flag that happens to be in view just before they pull the trigger on a big game animal? LOL
I have no idea where you're coming up with "barrel life" as something we've been discussing in regard to why a .308 Winchester sucks hind tit in the long range game.
So JG,
I know you don't hunt at long range, but all the guys you know who do check a wind flag that happens to be in view just before they pull the trigger on a big game animal? LOL
I have no idea where you're coming up with "barrel life" as something we've been discussing in regard to why a .308 Winchester sucks hind tit in the long range game.
Here's what I said. Please note I said competition, and not a single word mentioned in regards to LR hunting.
Not arguing, just discussing...........
Ever wonder why the LR competition dudes use wind flags...at the bench, the target, and in between? Often times the wind at the target and bench are different. Big problem.
I certainly didn't realize a .308 was such a LR handicap.
I'm sure you're a good dude rca, but you sure are awfully proud of yourself and seem to have it all figured out. Maybe Hodnett will give you a job?
I'm sure you're a great guy too JG, but you're really not contributing much in the way of knowledge and experience to this discussion. You do seem to do plenty of name-dropping.
If you don't believe that the .308 Winchester is ballistically inferior to plenty of other cartriges, you probably need to have a conversation with someone you obviously trust as an authority on long range, such as your friends who are snipers. Or you can check the results of any long range competition held around the world and find out what the guy was shooting who won as well as note how well the guys who shot the .308 Winchester placed.
Of course wind flags are useful. Never said they weren't
Wind flags don't exist conveniently in the field during hunts or any competition that replicates hunting. If a guy has no other method to call wind but with a flag, he has a lot of work to do to become proficient and has no business hunting at long range.
I'll help you. Here are the results from the Sporting Rifle Match at Whittington from the last 5 months....
Folks shooting the .308 are noted to the right of their score
September
C Ward 57
Brian W 56
Jesse L 52
Andy P 51
Steve M 51
Mike F 50 Senior
Anthony R 50
Ron F 50
Kevin U 50
Kevin H 49 FNG
Jared M 49
Stew O 48
Benn M 47
Shawn A 47
Abol 46
Tod 46
Tom G 46
Mike K 46
Gene K 45
Mark K 45
Cal Z 44
Tim K 42
Rick B 40
Bobby B 39 FNG
Bill M 39
James R 39
Tom P 38 Senior
Andrew F 37
Bob S 37 Senior
Kevin H 36
Marcos T 36
Aaron R 35 308
Justin W 34 308
Peter D 33
Eric K 32 FNG
Matt L 32 FNG,308
Micah F 30 FNG,308
Scotty D 30
Lizard 28 Senior
Dennis B 27
Bary R 27
Dave L 25 Senior,FNG
Kirk K 23 308,FNG
Randy 23 FNG
Christine P 23 Ladies,FNG
Jim L 17 Senior
Jeff N 17 Senior,308
Wayne T 15 308
Travis 14 FNG
Jared W 14
Dak K 12 FNG,308
Ricky 11 FNG
Gene S 9 Senior
David L 6
Jessie B 3
Dale P NFS
Twilla M NFS
August
Steve M 54
Brian W 52
Jason L 50
Andy P 49
Kevin U 47
Matt M 47
Gene K 46
James V 45 308
Tim K 45
Rick B 45
Neil B 44
Jeff T 44
Dino 44
James R 44
Bill M 42
Jesse D 42 Ladies
Ryan M 42
Shawn A 42
Antony R 39
Chris M 39 308
Justin W 37 308 , FNG
Troy L 37
Kevin H 34
RJ D 33
CJ M 33 308
Bob S 32 Senior
Gene S 31
Mark K 30
Dennis B 29
Jared W 28 308 , FNG
Chris E 26
Stan S NFS
Tom P NFS
C Ward NFS
July
Johnathon T 51
Sean T 50
Ed A 50
C W 49
Brian W 49
Jason 48
Aaron S 48
Steve M 48
Neal T 47 Senior
Rick C 46
Gene K 45
Seth R 44
Wes R 44
Mark K 44
Benn M 43
James V 42
Dino 41
Ryan M 41 FNG
Jared M 41
Larry S 40 Senior
Mike F 40 Senior
Bill M 40 Senior
John S 39 FNG
Tom E 39
Matt M 39
Neil B 39 Senior
Matt B 38 Senior
Anthony R 38
Andrew F 37
Patrick M 37 FNG
CJ M 37 308
Shawn A 37
Zach O 36
Scott D 35
Aaron B 34
Jeff T 34
JJ 34 308
Butch F 33
Jesse 33
Dennis B 31
Kurtis T 31 FNG
Troy L 31
Terry R 31
Hoser 30
Jamie D 29 Ladies
Jesse D 29 Ladies
Tim K 29
Paul S 28 Senior , FNG
Bob S 28 Senior
Chris M 27 308
James J 25
Randy M 24 FNG
Scott W 22 308
Brock T 21
Steve 21
Jim 15 Senior , FNG
Melissa U 15 Ladies , FNG
Jay K 12 Senior , FNG
Charles T 7 FNG
James T 0 FNG
Jared R NFS
Tom P NFS
Sky NFS
Ann H DNF
Jeff H DNF
Ara M DNF
Dave M DNF
May
Rick C 52
James V 47
Larry S 46 Senoir
Sean T 46
Tom P 44 Senoir
Seth R 44
Brent B 44
Mack K 43
Shane C 43
Andy P 42
Dave M 42 Senoir
Dino 42
Mike F 42 Senoir
Andrew F 41
Shawn A 41
Tod Z 41
Stuart O 40
Jared A 40
Bill M 40 Senoir
Tim K 40
C Ward 40
Kevin H 40
Jonathan T 39
Bob S 39 Senoir
Joshua 39 FNG
Stan S 39 Senoir
John S 38
Zach O 38
Clint V 38
Adam R 37
Jeff T 37
Scott D 36
Steve A 36
Orrin B 36
Tom E 36 Senoir
Barry R 36
Nils F 36 FNG
Kevin U 36
Chris E 35
Dave B 35 FNG
Scott W 34 308
Joe S 34 308
James R 33
Gary D 32
Dennis B 32
Dustin B 32 FNG , 308
Chuck C 31 Senoir , 308
Kieth S 30
Gene K 29 Senior
Dave B 29
Greg C 28 FNG
Anthony R 28
Jim C 27 308
Terry 26
Marshall D 24
Jeff S 24
Dwayne R 24
Bruce 23
Lizard 23 Senior , FNG , 308
Peter D 18
Brock T 17 308
Gene S 17 Senir , FNG
Chris M 17 308
CJ M 16 308
April
Rick C 56
Jason L 54
CW 52
Jesse L 51
Kevin U 51
Tom P 51 Senior
Tod R 50
Mike K 50
Dino 48
Benn M 48
Seth R 48 FNG
Fritz A 48
Shawn A 48
Steve M 47
Tim K 47
Stan S 46 Senior
Mark K 46
RJ D 45
Orrin B 45
Hoser 45
Mike F 44 Senior
Stewert O 44
Mike D 43
Jared M 40
Jeff T 40
Jared A 39
Chris E 39
Rich B 39
Anthony R 37
Sarah B 36 Ladies , FNG
Chris M 36 308
Bruce A 35
Dennis B 35
Kevin H 34
Peter D 34 FNG
Andrew F 34 FNG
CJ M 32 308
James R 31 FNG
Jim C jr 30 308
Zach O 27
Marcos 26
Broch T 24 308
Abel S 23
Jeff G 16 FNG
Brandon 4 FNG
James 3 FNG
Well, what I do know is this:
1. Not intending to show how smart I am on the subject because I am not. However, from the short time I've been around these guys I've deduced that they know way more about LR hunting/shooting than 99% of the people on the planet, including you. That's why snipers from around the world ask for his guidance and training.
2. I understand BC's and how they work.
3. I understand that nobody can dope wind every time, period
including you and everybody else on "the 'fire'.
4. The "names" are very fond of the .308/168's/IMR 8308 for some reason.
5. Feel free to hunt however you want. More power to you. I'll use what I know, you can use what you know, and we'll be happy ever after.
6. I could care less about BR competition, etc.
Well, what I do know is this:
1. .... I've deduced that they know way more about LR hunting/shooting than 99% of the people on the planet, including you.
4. The "names" are very fond of the .308/168's/IMR 8308 for some reason.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but your deduction may be completely wrong. You don't know me or anything about what I know. Also, if the "names" are fond of a .308 Winchester/168 grain combo for anything that can be called Long Range, they don't know as much as you think either.
I take the best possible shot I'm presented with, but I like to have as many tools in my tool box as possible- with the option to take short, medium, or long-range shots.
Good statement Jordan, so if I wanted a cartridge to do that what would you recommend? I hunt whitetail in the SE so its woods primarily but there are some bean fields too.
Would you then equally "FEAR" any hunter (at any range) who is not equipped to make a shot in the field on game, under pressure (lot different than shooting at a piece of steel or paper)?
I am personally opposed to people who do not equip themselves.
You have the newbies, who really don't have a clue and then you have what I call "slob hunters" and they just don't really care.
You will find both groups hunting at all distances.I try to help the ones who are wanting to learn to be better marksman in the field, regardless of the distance they hunt at.
One can whine or one can do what they can, to actually help others be better.
The situation is a fact, the fear is "often", though I am careful not to condemn it. Its my "rub", others proceed as they feel right. The tables could be turned on archery. A rifle would make for a more efficient kill.
[u][/u]
Well, what I do know is this:
1. Not intending to show how smart I am on the subject because I am not. However, from the short time I've been around these guys I've deduced that they know way more about LR hunting/shooting than 99% of the people on the planet, including you. That's why snipers from around the world ask for his guidance and training.
2. I understand BC's and how they work.
3. I understand that nobody can dope wind every time, period
including you and everybody else on "the 'fire'.
4. The "names" are very fond of the .308/168's/IMR 8308 for some reason.
5. Feel free to hunt however you want. More power to you. I'll use what I know, you can use what you know, and we'll be happy ever after.
6. I could care less about BR competition, etc.
They aren't fond of it because it is better, the reason is that is what they are given. The 175 SMK is far superior to the 168 fired from the 308. The 168's lose accuracy pat 600 yards and that is why the 175 was produced.
Well, what I do know is this:
1. .... I've deduced that they know way more about LR hunting/shooting than 99% of the people on the planet, including you.
4. The "names" are very fond of the .308/168's/IMR 8308 for some reason.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but your deduction may be completely wrong. You don't know me or anything about what I know. Also, if the "names" are fond of a .308 Winchester/168 grain combo for anything that can be called Long Range, they don't know as much as you think either.
And my deduction may not be wrong. I'm through with this assinine discussion anyway. It's good to know your ego and self esteem are in such fine shape though. Good luck.
They aren't fond of it because it is better, the reason is that is what they are given. The 175 SMK is far superior to the 168 fired from the 308. The 168's lose accuracy pat 600 yards and that is why the 175 was produced.
Exactly, they simply don't know what they don't know.
There are people in this world who are perfectly happy living in a mud hut with a banana leaf wrapped around their cock. They simply don't know what else is out there or have a basis to compare their [bleep] life with any thing else. same, same...
Thanks JG! Keep on keepin' on!
I'll help you. Here are the results from the Sporting Rifle Match at Whittington from the last 5 months....
Folks shooting the .308 are noted to the right of their score
September
C Ward 57
Brian W 56
Jesse L 52
Andy P 51
Steve M 51
Mike F 50 Senior
Anthony R 50
Ron F 50
Kevin U 50
Kevin H 49 FNG
Jared M 49
Stew O 48
Benn M 47
Shawn A 47
Abol 46
Tod 46
Tom G 46
Mike K 46
Gene K 45
Mark K 45
Cal Z 44
Tim K 42
Rick B 40
Bobby B 39 FNG
Bill M 39
James R 39
Tom P 38 Senior
Andrew F 37
Bob S 37 Senior
Kevin H 36
Marcos T 36
Aaron R 35 308
Justin W 34 308
Peter D 33
Eric K 32 FNG
Matt L 32 FNG,308
Micah F 30 FNG,308
Scotty D 30
Lizard 28 Senior
Dennis B 27
Bary R 27
Dave L 25 Senior,FNG
Kirk K 23 308,FNG
Randy 23 FNG
Christine P 23 Ladies,FNG
Jim L 17 Senior
Jeff N 17 Senior,308
Wayne T 15 308
Travis 14 FNG
Jared W 14
Dak K 12 FNG,308
Ricky 11 FNG
Gene S 9 Senior
David L 6
Jessie B 3
Dale P NFS
Twilla M NFS
August
Steve M 54
Brian W 52
Jason L 50
Andy P 49
Kevin U 47
Matt M 47
Gene K 46
James V 45 308
Tim K 45
Rick B 45
Neil B 44
Jeff T 44
Dino 44
James R 44
Bill M 42
Jesse D 42 Ladies
Ryan M 42
Shawn A 42
Antony R 39
Chris M 39 308
Justin W 37 308 , FNG
Troy L 37
Kevin H 34
RJ D 33
CJ M 33 308
Bob S 32 Senior
Gene S 31
Mark K 30
Dennis B 29
Jared W 28 308 , FNG
Chris E 26
Stan S NFS
Tom P NFS
C Ward NFS
July
Johnathon T 51
Sean T 50
Ed A 50
C W 49
Brian W 49
Jason 48
Aaron S 48
Steve M 48
Neal T 47 Senior
Rick C 46
Gene K 45
Seth R 44
Wes R 44
Mark K 44
Benn M 43
James V 42
Dino 41
Ryan M 41 FNG
Jared M 41
Larry S 40 Senior
Mike F 40 Senior
Bill M 40 Senior
John S 39 FNG
Tom E 39
Matt M 39
Neil B 39 Senior
Matt B 38 Senior
Anthony R 38
Andrew F 37
Patrick M 37 FNG
CJ M 37 308
Shawn A 37
Zach O 36
Scott D 35
Aaron B 34
Jeff T 34
JJ 34 308
Butch F 33
Jesse 33
Dennis B 31
Kurtis T 31 FNG
Troy L 31
Terry R 31
Hoser 30
Jamie D 29 Ladies
Jesse D 29 Ladies
Tim K 29
Paul S 28 Senior , FNG
Bob S 28 Senior
Chris M 27 308
James J 25
Randy M 24 FNG
Scott W 22 308
Brock T 21
Steve 21
Jim 15 Senior , FNG
Melissa U 15 Ladies , FNG
Jay K 12 Senior , FNG
Charles T 7 FNG
James T 0 FNG
Jared R NFS
Tom P NFS
Sky NFS
Ann H DNF
Jeff H DNF
Ara M DNF
Dave M DNF
May
Rick C 52
James V 47
Larry S 46 Senoir
Sean T 46
Tom P 44 Senoir
Seth R 44
Brent B 44
Mack K 43
Shane C 43
Andy P 42
Dave M 42 Senoir
Dino 42
Mike F 42 Senoir
Andrew F 41
Shawn A 41
Tod Z 41
Stuart O 40
Jared A 40
Bill M 40 Senoir
Tim K 40
C Ward 40
Kevin H 40
Jonathan T 39
Bob S 39 Senoir
Joshua 39 FNG
Stan S 39 Senoir
John S 38
Zach O 38
Clint V 38
Adam R 37
Jeff T 37
Scott D 36
Steve A 36
Orrin B 36
Tom E 36 Senoir
Barry R 36
Nils F 36 FNG
Kevin U 36
Chris E 35
Dave B 35 FNG
Scott W 34 308
Joe S 34 308
James R 33
Gary D 32
Dennis B 32
Dustin B 32 FNG , 308
Chuck C 31 Senoir , 308
Kieth S 30
Gene K 29 Senior
Dave B 29
Greg C 28 FNG
Anthony R 28
Jim C 27 308
Terry 26
Marshall D 24
Jeff S 24
Dwayne R 24
Bruce 23
Lizard 23 Senior , FNG , 308
Peter D 18
Brock T 17 308
Gene S 17 Senir , FNG
Chris M 17 308
CJ M 16 308
April
Rick C 56
Jason L 54
CW 52
Jesse L 51
Kevin U 51
Tom P 51 Senior
Tod R 50
Mike K 50
Dino 48
Benn M 48
Seth R 48 FNG
Fritz A 48
Shawn A 48
Steve M 47
Tim K 47
Stan S 46 Senior
Mark K 46
RJ D 45
Orrin B 45
Hoser 45
Mike F 44 Senior
Stewert O 44
Mike D 43
Jared M 40
Jeff T 40
Jared A 39
Chris E 39
Rich B 39
Anthony R 37
Sarah B 36 Ladies , FNG
Chris M 36 308
Bruce A 35
Dennis B 35
Kevin H 34
Peter D 34 FNG
Andrew F 34 FNG
CJ M 32 308
James R 31 FNG
Jim C jr 30 308
Zach O 27
Marcos 26
Broch T 24 308
Abel S 23
Jeff G 16 FNG
Brandon 4 FNG
James 3 FNG
The average score of every competitor who finished is 30 which I think is a 50% hit rate which is the same rate you experienced on your antelope hunt. Do you think a 50% hit rate is acceptable for rifle hunting?
I am not familiar with this comp set-up, but I am pretty sure it is a score match.
I have done two matches of F-Class in 2013 at the Nats/World (1000 yards). At 1K the X-Ring is 5" in diameter and the 10 Ring is 10".
10 points for a shot that hits in the 10 ring.
On the second day first relay (good conditions).
For context sake, it was also my first time to ever compete using a rifle. I shot a clean score (15 shots with 6X's).
My very first sighter/cold bore shot was an "X", with 2 more X's and 3 10's in my sighters.
So, 21 shots in all at 1K (9 of which were in a 5" circle), and ht rest were in a 10" circle.
Can't do that in bad conditions. But I am not taking an extreme range shot at game in BAD conditions.
Another thing about comps--You HAVE to shoot when it is your time to shoot. Does NOT matter what the conditions are you have to shoot.
That is way different than hunting. You DO NOT HAVE TO SHOOT just because there is a critter there.
I'll help you. Here are the results from the Sporting Rifle Match at Whittington from the last 5 months....
Folks shooting the .308 are noted to the right of their score
September
C Ward 57
Brian W 56
Jesse L 52
Andy P 51
Steve M 51
Mike F 50 Senior
Anthony R 50
Ron F 50
Kevin U 50
Kevin H 49 FNG
Jared M 49
Stew O 48
Benn M 47
Shawn A 47
Abol 46
Tod 46
Tom G 46
Mike K 46
Gene K 45
Mark K 45
Cal Z 44
Tim K 42
Rick B 40
Bobby B 39 FNG
Bill M 39
James R 39
Tom P 38 Senior
Andrew F 37
Bob S 37 Senior
Kevin H 36
Marcos T 36
Aaron R 35 308
Justin W 34 308
Peter D 33
Eric K 32 FNG
Matt L 32 FNG,308
Micah F 30 FNG,308
Scotty D 30
Lizard 28 Senior
Dennis B 27
Bary R 27
Dave L 25 Senior,FNG
Kirk K 23 308,FNG
Randy 23 FNG
Christine P 23 Ladies,FNG
Jim L 17 Senior
Jeff N 17 Senior,308
Wayne T 15 308
Travis 14 FNG
Jared W 14
Dak K 12 FNG,308
Ricky 11 FNG
Gene S 9 Senior
David L 6
Jessie B 3
Dale P NFS
Twilla M NFS
August
Steve M 54
Brian W 52
Jason L 50
Andy P 49
Kevin U 47
Matt M 47
Gene K 46
James V 45 308
Tim K 45
Rick B 45
Neil B 44
Jeff T 44
Dino 44
James R 44
Bill M 42
Jesse D 42 Ladies
Ryan M 42
Shawn A 42
Antony R 39
Chris M 39 308
Justin W 37 308 , FNG
Troy L 37
Kevin H 34
RJ D 33
CJ M 33 308
Bob S 32 Senior
Gene S 31
Mark K 30
Dennis B 29
Jared W 28 308 , FNG
Chris E 26
Stan S NFS
Tom P NFS
C Ward NFS
July
Johnathon T 51
Sean T 50
Ed A 50
C W 49
Brian W 49
Jason 48
Aaron S 48
Steve M 48
Neal T 47 Senior
Rick C 46
Gene K 45
Seth R 44
Wes R 44
Mark K 44
Benn M 43
James V 42
Dino 41
Ryan M 41 FNG
Jared M 41
Larry S 40 Senior
Mike F 40 Senior
Bill M 40 Senior
John S 39 FNG
Tom E 39
Matt M 39
Neil B 39 Senior
Matt B 38 Senior
Anthony R 38
Andrew F 37
Patrick M 37 FNG
CJ M 37 308
Shawn A 37
Zach O 36
Scott D 35
Aaron B 34
Jeff T 34
JJ 34 308
Butch F 33
Jesse 33
Dennis B 31
Kurtis T 31 FNG
Troy L 31
Terry R 31
Hoser 30
Jamie D 29 Ladies
Jesse D 29 Ladies
Tim K 29
Paul S 28 Senior , FNG
Bob S 28 Senior
Chris M 27 308
James J 25
Randy M 24 FNG
Scott W 22 308
Brock T 21
Steve 21
Jim 15 Senior , FNG
Melissa U 15 Ladies , FNG
Jay K 12 Senior , FNG
Charles T 7 FNG
James T 0 FNG
Jared R NFS
Tom P NFS
Sky NFS
Ann H DNF
Jeff H DNF
Ara M DNF
Dave M DNF
May
Rick C 52
James V 47
Larry S 46 Senoir
Sean T 46
Tom P 44 Senoir
Seth R 44
Brent B 44
Mack K 43
Shane C 43
Andy P 42
Dave M 42 Senoir
Dino 42
Mike F 42 Senoir
Andrew F 41
Shawn A 41
Tod Z 41
Stuart O 40
Jared A 40
Bill M 40 Senoir
Tim K 40
C Ward 40
Kevin H 40
Jonathan T 39
Bob S 39 Senoir
Joshua 39 FNG
Stan S 39 Senoir
John S 38
Zach O 38
Clint V 38
Adam R 37
Jeff T 37
Scott D 36
Steve A 36
Orrin B 36
Tom E 36 Senoir
Barry R 36
Nils F 36 FNG
Kevin U 36
Chris E 35
Dave B 35 FNG
Scott W 34 308
Joe S 34 308
James R 33
Gary D 32
Dennis B 32
Dustin B 32 FNG , 308
Chuck C 31 Senoir , 308
Kieth S 30
Gene K 29 Senior
Dave B 29
Greg C 28 FNG
Anthony R 28
Jim C 27 308
Terry 26
Marshall D 24
Jeff S 24
Dwayne R 24
Bruce 23
Lizard 23 Senior , FNG , 308
Peter D 18
Brock T 17 308
Gene S 17 Senir , FNG
Chris M 17 308
CJ M 16 308
April
Rick C 56
Jason L 54
CW 52
Jesse L 51
Kevin U 51
Tom P 51 Senior
Tod R 50
Mike K 50
Dino 48
Benn M 48
Seth R 48 FNG
Fritz A 48
Shawn A 48
Steve M 47
Tim K 47
Stan S 46 Senior
Mark K 46
RJ D 45
Orrin B 45
Hoser 45
Mike F 44 Senior
Stewert O 44
Mike D 43
Jared M 40
Jeff T 40
Jared A 39
Chris E 39
Rich B 39
Anthony R 37
Sarah B 36 Ladies , FNG
Chris M 36 308
Bruce A 35
Dennis B 35
Kevin H 34
Peter D 34 FNG
Andrew F 34 FNG
CJ M 32 308
James R 31 FNG
Jim C jr 30 308
Zach O 27
Marcos 26
Broch T 24 308
Abel S 23
Jeff G 16 FNG
Brandon 4 FNG
James 3 FNG
The average score of every competitor who finished is 30 which I think is a 50% hit rate which is the same rate you experienced on your antelope hunt. Do you think a 50% hit rate is acceptable for rifle hunting?
So you're the guy I've heard about who has never missed!
�ber!
On that relay-YES!
Just don't ask about relay two on day one
I got my hat handed to me, and made several rookie (F-Class) mistakes all in one relay
So you're the guy I've heard about who has never missed!
�ber!
I was replying to whiptail, Ernie
Oh, sorry.
I was replying to whiptail, Ernie
Another question: Do any of you longrange hunters use Short Action cartridges...,if so which one?
7 SAUM and 7 WSM, and 6.5 Leopard (WSM) and 6.5 SAUM. Haven't done any shooting with the 6.5 SAUM yet though.
I shoot my 7saum out to 700 and my 6.5x284 to 800 best kill with the saum was 625 and 815 for the 6.5.
Do you guys have a preference to 6.5 over 7 or vice versa?
With a 6.5 you can get to a .600+ BC bullet at 140 grains; with a 7 you pretty much have to go to 160+ grains to get that.
No I like both take the 7 when bear might be a side quarry. But I am fine with the 6.5 as well . Think I like the 6.5 for deer.
....... Do you think a 50% hit rate is acceptable for rifle hunting?.....
Personally I would hope that anyone who decides to do much BG hunting can do far better than that. If a guy kills a couple hundred head of BG animals in his life and misses 50% of the cold barrel 1st shots (regardless of distance), it's a pretty sorry showing.
I would say that a shot at an un wounded BG animal offering no better than a 50-50% chance of success should be passed up.
7mm is my personal fav between the two
Do you guys have a preference to 6.5 over 7 or vice versa?
Thanks fellas I appreciate the input. I really have no knowledge on longrange hunting.
Like I said theres some opportunity here but most is woods. That don't mean I cant find a field and shoot some targets!
One more question and then i'll leave you guys alone.
Whats your opinions on 260 & 7-08 for this type of hunting? In all honesty, I don't see myself going longer than 500yds.
Inside 500 they are both fine it is bullet choice that will matter. Use good boat tail bullet like amax or ballistic tip ect.
So you're the guy I've heard about who has never missed!
�ber!
I haven't missed in 5 years and have killed 7 big game animals, but my longest shot was only 300 yards and I'm certain if I tried to shoot an antelope at 840 yards I would've missed a lot more than you did.
Fred,your not the first guy to recommend A-Maxes but on Hornadys website they DONT recommend them for hunting. What kind of results are you getting on game w/ them?
In the slower calibers you mentioned they will open up at distance. wife shot them for three years. Tell I got 1000 free 140 gr accubonds got to go with free right . Every thing she shot at to 525 yards died with a 7-08AI .
Thanks fellas I appreciate the input. I really have no knowledge on longrange hunting.
Like I said theres some opportunity here but most is woods. That don't mean I cant find a field and shoot some targets!
One more question and then i'll leave you guys alone.
Whats your opinions on 260 & 7-08 for this type of hunting? In all honesty, I don't see myself going longer than 500yds.
If you're shooting deer (and it's legal) I'd look at getting a .22 cal.
Travis
As in .223?? Only my 2nd year living in TN. but I do believe .22cal is legal here.
I have thought along that line but I also have an opportunity to hunt in ID next year.
Inside 500 they are both fine it is bullet choice that will matter. Use good boat tail bullet like amax or ballistic tip ect.
Ballistic tips are good bullets, but they're not boattails so their BCs aren't up there with the A-max or Berger vlds.
It's all about the wind when you get out there, and BC affects the amount of drift.
Get a ballistics program or go on Berger's website and use their ballistics calculator to enter in different BCs and see how wind drift is affected at long range, that will give you a good idea of why bullet selection is important.
Inside 500 they are both fine it is bullet choice that will matter. Use good boat tail bullet like amax or ballistic tip ect.
Ballistic tips are good bullets, but they're not boattails so their BCs aren't up there with the A-max or Berger vlds.
It's all about the wind when you get out there, and BC affects the amount of drift.
Get a ballistics program or go on Berger's website and use their ballistics calculator to enter in different BCs and see how wind drift is affected at long range, that will give you a good idea of why bullet selection is important.
Excuse me, but Nosler Ballistic Tips are indeed "boatail" bullets anyone can see that.
Inside 500 they are both fine it is bullet choice that will matter. Use good boat tail bullet like amax or ballistic tip ect.
Ballistic tips are good bullets, but they're not boattails so their BCs aren't up there with the A-max or Berger vlds.
It's all about the wind when you get out there, and BC affects the amount of drift.
Get a ballistics program or go on Berger's website and use their ballistics calculator to enter in different BCs and see how wind drift is affected at long range, that will give you a good idea of why bullet selection is important.
Excuse me, but Nosler Ballistic Tips are indeed "boatail" bullets anyone can see that.
You'll have to excuse smoke. He thinks boat tails have a propeller.
Inside 500 they are both fine it is bullet choice that will matter. Use good boat tail bullet like amax or ballistic tip ect.
Ballistic tips are good bullets, but they're not boattails so their BCs aren't up there with the A-max or Berger vlds.
It's all about the wind when you get out there, and BC affects the amount of drift.
Get a ballistics program or go on Berger's website and use their ballistics calculator to enter in different BCs and see how wind drift is affected at long range, that will give you a good idea of why bullet selection is important.
Excuse me, but Nosler Ballistic Tips are indeed "boatail" bullets anyone can see that.
A ballistic tip is not a true boattail bullet. They're not flat-base, but their "boattail" is inconsequential compared to a true boattail and it shows up in the BC. Here's a photo of three 6.5 bullets, with a vld on the left, a 120 grain BT in the middle, and a 123 grain Scenar on the right. The vld and scenar are true boattail bullets:
![[Linked Image]](http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p46/cpwatts_2006/DSCN0099-1.jpg)
The G1 BC of the 123 scenar is .527, and the figure given by Nosler for the BT is .458. Brian Litz has the 120 BT pegged at .418. A lot of the difference is due to the BT's lack of a true boattail.
You'll have to excuse smoke. He thinks boat tails have a propeller.
No, but I'm pretty sure your hat does.
I take the best possible shot I'm presented with, but I like to have as many tools in my tool box as possible- with the option to take short, medium, or long-range shots.
Good statement Jordan, so if I wanted a cartridge to do that what would you recommend? I hunt whitetail in the SE so its woods primarily but there are some bean fields too.
.243, 6.5 Creed, .260, 7-08, etc, would do the job nicely.
Inside 500 they are both fine it is bullet choice that will matter. Use good boat tail bullet like amax or ballistic tip ect.
Ballistic tips are good bullets, but they're not boattails so their BCs aren't up there with the A-max or Berger vlds.
It's all about the wind when you get out there, and BC affects the amount of drift.
Get a ballistics program or go on Berger's website and use their ballistics calculator to enter in different BCs and see how wind drift is affected at long range, that will give you a good idea of why bullet selection is important.
Excuse me, but Nosler Ballistic Tips are indeed "boatail" bullets anyone can see that.
A ballistic tip is not a true boattail bullet. They're not flat-base, but their "boattail" is inconsequential compared to a true boattail and it shows up in the BC. Here's a photo of three 6.5 bullets, with a vld on the left, a 120 grain BT in the middle, and a 123 grain Scenar on the right. The vld and scenar are true boattail bullets:
The G1 BC of the 123 scenar is .527, and the figure given by Nosler for the BT is .458. Brian Litz has the 120 BT pegged at .418. A lot of the difference is due to the BT's lack of a true boattail.
They're all boat-tail bullets, but some BT's are more aggressive than others. Just like they're all pointed bullets, as opposed to RN, but the meplats and ogives of these pointed bullets vary considerably. The VLD and Scenar have a boat tail with a very-low drag profile, as where the BT on the 120 BT is anemic by comparison.
You'll have to excuse smoke. He thinks boat tails have a propeller.
No, but I'm pretty sure your hat does.
Stalker!
Inside 500 they are both fine it is bullet choice that will matter. Use good boat tail bullet like amax or ballistic tip ect.
Ballistic tips are good bullets, but they're not boattails so their BCs aren't up there with the A-max or Berger vlds.
It's all about the wind when you get out there, and BC affects the amount of drift.
Get a ballistics program or go on Berger's website and use their ballistics calculator to enter in different BCs and see how wind drift is affected at long range, that will give you a good idea of why bullet selection is important.
Excuse me, but Nosler Ballistic Tips are indeed "boatail" bullets anyone can see that.
A ballistic tip is not a true boattail bullet. They're not flat-base, but their "boattail" is inconsequential compared to a true boattail and it shows up in the BC. Here's a photo of three 6.5 bullets, with a vld on the left, a 120 grain BT in the middle, and a 123 grain Scenar on the right. The vld and scenar are true boattail bullets:
The G1 BC of the 123 scenar is .527, and the figure given by Nosler for the BT is .458. Brian Litz has the 120 BT pegged at .418. A lot of the difference is due to the BT's lack of a true boattail.
They are all spritzer boatail bullets with different ogivals, you are showing a complete lack of knowledge.
Inside 500 they are both fine it is bullet choice that will matter. Use good boat tail bullet like amax or ballistic tip ect.
Ballistic tips are good bullets, but they're not boattails so their BCs aren't up there with the A-max or Berger vlds.
It's all about the wind when you get out there, and BC affects the amount of drift.
Get a ballistics program or go on Berger's website and use their ballistics calculator to enter in different BCs and see how wind drift is affected at long range, that will give you a good idea of why bullet selection is important.
Excuse me, but Nosler Ballistic Tips are indeed "boatail" bullets anyone can see that.
You'll have to excuse smoke. He thinks boat tails have a propeller.
Apparently!
They are all spritzer boatail bullets with different ogivals, you are showing a complete lack of knowledge.
Spritzers and ogivals? Keep 'em coming, I'm learning here.
Seriously though, it's my turn to say it now: "This is the long range forum, right?"
The VLD and Scenar have a boat tail with a very-low drag profile, as where the BT on the 120 BT is anemic by comparison.
Yes, they are all boat tail bullets, but if you look back at my posts and read them in context, by calling the BT "anemic by comparison" we're saying the same thing.
I was replying to someone who recommended BTs as long range bullets having "good boat tails" and being in the same league with A-max's.
They're not. I should've just said "they're not what I'd call a good boat tail bullet."
But if I'd said that, I never would've learned about spritzers and ogivals.
Ya got yer spritzers, ogivals, and all kinds a stuff here.
Ogivals are either Seekins or Tangibles. Sometimes they're intangible
Spritzers are pointy and sometimes hallowed
If you get Mark Spitz's book, it's all in there.
I've got that book. Some great recipes in there. My wife really likes the white wine spritzers.
I was replying to someone who recommended BTs as long range bullets having "good boat tails" and being in the same league with A-max's.
Actually the original reccomenadation was for bullets to be used inside of 500yds for deer out of a 7mm-08 or a 260. It was a good reccomenadation. It doesn't take a VLD style bullet to make hits 500 and under.
David
All true, and I believe I said BTs were good bullets. I've shot them out to 800 accurately.
Thanks Jordan..,the 2 cartridges I'm leaning toward are the 260 & 7-08.
Thanks to all of you that took the time to clear up some questions I had...,much appreciated.
Just finished a load for my .300 WM lightweight hunting rifle.
If I kill something that will go B&C, please don't tell Boone and Crockett that I killed it at Long Range.
![[Linked Image]](http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo236/rcamuglia/1CB734EB-30B4-41EF-BBEF-28991087D5DF.jpg)
Just finished a load for my .300 WM lightweight hunting rifle.
If I kill something that will go B&C, please don't tell Boone and Crockett that I killed it at Long Range.
RC
What does your lightweight 300WM weigh? Just curious....
Thanks,
David
Never weighed it. I know it's lighter than the 15# competition rifle that I killed my antelope with!
I'm saying 9'ish
Never weighed it. I know it's lighter than the 15# competition rifle that I killed my antelope with!
I'm saying 9'ish
Thanks,,
Lightweight means different things to different folks, was just curious. Care to share some rifle specifics? Barrel length? Contour? Twist? Stock? Optics? Mounts?
David
rc, sounds like you have some nice .300's.. My sporter is about 9-10 #.. It has been a great rifle since 1971..
It's another Score High Gunsmithing build.
Model 70 post 64 action
Bartlein stainless #4 ? 10 twist
Score High Hunting Brake
Manners EH-1 pillar bedded with Score High Pro-Bed 2000
Factory trigger worked
Leupold VX3 LR 6.5-20 40mm TMR MOA target knobs
Leupold dual dovetails
Score High Custom Cerocoat job. Entire thing
![[Linked Image]](http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo236/rcamuglia/D99FC2AA-8156-4871-9155-8DEF9CFE403B.jpg)
RC,
Thanks for the details - always nice to see what's working for other folks!
What's your opinion of the brake? Worth it in a non-comp rifle?
What's the mount on your scope for? Night time varmint light?
David
I'll have a brake on every rifle.
Not sure what you mean by the "mount". There's a bubble level
Did Eric Stecker ever respond? Didn't we trade him to the Jets??
Has he even caught a pass this year?
Eric works for Berger, so no.
The Jets stink. Tebow would have been better
Eric works for Berger, so no.
That can't be true. I'm pretty sure he's Deflave's drinkin' buddy.
I've heard they're swamped over there at 'Flave Precision. It's hunting season.
They're swamped because it's drinking season......
If you don't believe that the .308 Winchester is ballistically inferior
The 308 is UBER.
If they ever let me work around home 5 days a week, we need to get together so I can show you some long range stuff.
They're swamped because it's drinking season......
This ^^
If you don't believe that the .308 Winchester is ballistically inferior
The 308 is UBER.
If they ever let me work around home 5 days a week, we need to get together so I can show you some long range stuff.
Sounds good. Let me know
If I kill something that will go B&C, please don't tell Boone and Crockett that I killed it at Long Range.
They ask the range on the entry form..
I'll just leave a digit off or put a decimal point in
Use your watch to calculate significant digits.
Biden is such a clown.
He thinks Ebola is an electronic bowling game.
Biden? Does he work at 'Flave Precision? He sure seems to have the drinking part down.....
I'm pretty sure Travis fired him after he recommended folks get a "double barreled shotgun and fire it off the porch" to scare burglars away.
I mean, the bonehead worked at the most prestigious custom rifle maker and didn't bother to plug the company.
Biden was fired. He gave great head but that was about all he was good for.
Stecker would use math did back his viewpoints. I don't like that so he was fired as well.
We're back to the original crew of Anheuser PhD., 'Flave, and which ever mini-'flave walks through the shop at any given time.
Travis
I heard you fired him because he looks like Walter...
![[Linked Image]](http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo236/rcamuglia/biden.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo236/rcamuglia/walter.jpg)
How long is long range and what's a long range rifle?
Sounds like 75 yards is where it starts and a savage seems to be the standard.
![[Linked Image]](http://s229.photobucket.com/user/zingdingo/media/2014-09-27%2008.18.26.png.html)
![[Linked Image]](http://s955.photobucket.com/user/Heavywalker/media/Mobile%20Uploads/picture000_zps5fac7063.jpg.html)
![[Linked Image]](http://s955.photobucket.com/user/Heavywalker/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/F15AC22A-40BA-4512-8826-2BF3E39AE471_zpsk9no1wpf.jpg.html)
![[Linked Image]](http://s379.photobucket.com/user/rcamuglia/media/1CB734EB-30B4-41EF-BBEF-28991087D5DF.jpg.html)
![[Linked Image]](http://s379.photobucket.com/user/rcamuglia/media/D99FC2AA-8156-4871-9155-8DEF9CFE403B.jpg.html)
![[Linked Image]](http://s379.photobucket.com/user/rcamuglia/media/biden.jpg.html)
![[Linked Image]](http://s379.photobucket.com/user/rcamuglia/media/walter.jpg.html)