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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2012
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RWE, I would never miss an opportunity to pontificate.
Excessive force? What a concept.
mike r
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,487 |
I usually stay out of these because I disagree with all but about three people who post on them. But this is worth saying....
While I agree with the "slow is smooth-smooth is fast" doctrine in theory, it gets all jacked up in application.
People think that if slow=smooth and smooth=fast, then slow=fast. And it just ain't so. Going slow is only a tool to create the smoothidity. Once the smoothocity is there you should work on getting faster, not keep practicing slowly.
At some point you've gotta take that smokewagon out and go to work with it. And it might not be pretty, and in fact it'll probably have a lot lot of ugly, but it'll be real. When you've gotta really draw, it'll be at balls out speed. So you owe it to yourself to find out what you're capable of cold, at balls out speed.
And I firmly believe that the first round of every practice session should be at balls out speed. Seeing how you shoot after forty minutes of warmup is no indication of your actual ability. But most people have no desire to see what their cold and on demand ability is, because it probably ain't good. Laugh away... I shot all my CHL except my very first one at full on speed. I even missed a couple of shots one year. But it was teaching me what I can expect, somewhat, if it ever came to it. BTW I'm with you... you start slow and smooth.... and get it to where its an instict... and then you always speed up.... even in the lowly game of highpwer.... I ended up with a sitting rapid fire mag change that impressed not only the AMU Ft Benning, but also the MTU Quantico boys... at least a couple of times in training at nationals...ONLY because I worked it out, became smooth, figured out how I could shave time.... and did it.... I prefered as much time as I could on the front sight and making a good shot break....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,487
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,487 |
Oh yeah, 45 for me please...though I'm open to 357 sig from some years of results that I"ve seen reports on
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,487
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,487 |
There are still those who think there is a big difference between 9mm & .45 ACP...I'm still trying to figure out if there is any meaningful difference other than testosterone.
That said, I carry a .45 ACP but I do so because I like the gun, not because I feel the .45 really brings anything more meaningful to the table in modern defensive hollow point ammunition. You get a little more frontal diameter with the .45 ACP vs the 9mm which will give you better barrier penetration in 124+P or 147 standard pressure loadings.
I think it's WELL proven that any of the modern defensive cartridges will get the job done. It is also well established that most modern pistols are more than adequately reliable for concealed carry purposes.
So pick the gun you like in the cartridge you like. This is so easy, I'll leave it to everyone's imagination,  but all I can tell you is there was a huge onslaught of units emptying out the Navy's arsenal in Indianapolis of retired 1911s because the 9MM Beretta SUCKS as a stopper. That is why as much as I love my 1911s, I know carry either a Glock 21 or a 31 for the simple reason of more is better. The 9 has never impressed me, then again, I will defer to the experts here. Apples oranges. Military is restricted to ball. If I were restricted to ball, I would go with a 45 also. But as a carry weapon here, I and the OP have the option of using high quality self-defense ammo which negates a huge majority of the advantage the 45 would have over the 9mm. So let me see if I follow: if a 45 (apple) is superior to a 9MM (PC) when both are ball rounds, but if both are upgraded to hollow points the apple's stopping power capabilities are not enhanced yet the orange's are? I'll take the 45... Edited to correct...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,620 |
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,487
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,487 |
See your first line and your comparison there on your reply. LOL. DOn't know why it hit me that way but it did.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,930
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,930 |
There are still those who think there is a big difference between 9mm & .45 ACP...I'm still trying to figure out if there is any meaningful difference other than testosterone.
That said, I carry a .45 ACP but I do so because I like the gun, not because I feel the .45 really brings anything more meaningful to the table in modern defensive hollow point ammunition. You get a little more frontal diameter with the .45 ACP vs the 9mm which will give you better barrier penetration in 124+P or 147 standard pressure loadings.
I think it's WELL proven that any of the modern defensive cartridges will get the job done. It is also well established that most modern pistols are more than adequately reliable for concealed carry purposes.
So pick the gun you like in the cartridge you like. This is so easy, I'll leave it to everyone's imagination, but all I can tell you is there was a huge onslaught of units emptying out the Navy's arsenal in Indianapolis of retired 1911s because the 9MM Beretta SUCKS as a stopper. That is why as much as I love my 1911s, I know carry either a Glock 21 or a 31 for the simple reason of more is better. The 9 has never impressed me, then again, I will defer to the experts here. Apples oranges. Military is restricted to ball. If I were restricted to ball, I would go with a 45 also. But as a carry weapon here, I and the OP have the option of using high quality self-defense ammo which negates a huge majority of the advantage the 45 would have over the 9mm. So let me see if I follow: if a 45 (apple) is superior to a 9MM (orange) when both are ball rounds, but if both are upgraded to hollow points the apple's stopping power capabilities are not enhanced yet the orange's are? I'll take the 45... Are you trolling or do you really not understand how bullet design has changed over the years? Yes, the performance of both is improved with modern bullets. But this is not linear for both calibers. Have you not ever looked at ballistic gel experiments between the 2 calibers with premium defensive ammo being used? Here is an example: Round Penetration Expansion Wound Area
Federal HydraShok
9mm 124gr +P+. 13.3" 0.67" 44.8 sq. in.
.40S&W 155gr 13.3" 0.68" 47.9 sq. in.
.45ACP 185gr +p 12.9" 0.69" 31.5 sq. in.
.45ACP 230gr 13.7" 0.71" 28.4 sq. in.
To try and clear up the table: A lowly Fed HS 9mm creates a wound area of 44.8 sq inches. While a Fed HS .45 creates a wound area of 28.4 - 31.5 sq inches. Now take into consideration the firearm capacity coupled with similar to sometimes better performance and it would be 9mm all day long. I personally love shooting a 1911 variant and shoot it well. I carry a 9mm every day with capacity being one reason.
Last edited by Tarkio; 11/20/14.
Montana MOFO
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
That's good stuff Jeff. Every time I hear someone say "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" I've started asking them to show me what they mean. 100% of the time so far guys have just demonstrated a slow draw. At some point they've gotta move on to the other half of the catch phrase.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 19,269
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 19,269 |
The foremost thing that one needs to understand is the winner of a deadly confrontation is the one who is willing and ready to KILL! Once the last piece clicks, deadly intent is necessary. Regardless of what anyone tries to tell you, in the end it is all about that one nasty fact. When looking at a living,breathing humanoid, a lifetime of morality and behavior suddenly come front and center. Hesitation is death.
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid ad triarios redisse My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish! ![[Linked Image]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/EvilTwinMar/Sabretooth-1.jpg)
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,985
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,985 |
There are still those who think there is a big difference between 9mm & .45 ACP...I'm still trying to figure out if there is any meaningful difference other than testosterone.
That said, I carry a .45 ACP but I do so because I like the gun, not because I feel the .45 really brings anything more meaningful to the table in modern defensive hollow point ammunition. You get a little more frontal diameter with the .45 ACP vs the 9mm which will give you better barrier penetration in 124+P or 147 standard pressure loadings.
I think it's WELL proven that any of the modern defensive cartridges will get the job done. It is also well established that most modern pistols are more than adequately reliable for concealed carry purposes.
So pick the gun you like in the cartridge you like. This is so easy, I'll leave it to everyone's imagination, but all I can tell you is there was a huge onslaught of units emptying out the Navy's arsenal in Indianapolis of retired 1911s because the 9MM Beretta SUCKS as a stopper. That is why as much as I love my 1911s, I know carry either a Glock 21 or a 31 for the simple reason of more is better. The 9 has never impressed me, then again, I will defer to the experts here. Yes, 9mm's suck when loaded with hardball ammo. I'm certain not one person the Fire would carry a 9mm, or even a .45 for that matter with Hardball unless required to do so by law. The only people how usually choose hardball are the hoodrats who are too cheap and stupid to know any better.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
I'd happily fight with ball ammo. I'm still gonna win.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,985 |
With regular range sessions (once a week, minimum) I can shoot an automatic just as well, but can't afford that much ammo, so I choose the handgun that I shoot most naturally, requiring the least range time and ammo expenditure to remain highly proficient. In your profile you list "reloading" as a hobby. You EDC a .38 special. Handloading .38 is cheap, cheap, cheap. How can you not be able to afford "that much ammo"? Because I feel sorry for him, I will point out that he was referring to the semi automatic ammo when he alluded to "can't afford that much ammo". This changes the whole issue, because reloading 9mm ain't cheap. Nor available in bulk for a decent price. Reloading for the 9 is extremely cheap if you cast your own bullets.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
That's good stuff Jeff. Every time I hear someone say "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" I've started asking them to show me what they mean. 100% of the time so far guys have just demonstrated a slow draw. At some point they've gotta move on to the other half of the catch phrase. Smooth is fast and that's why we incorporate gross motor skills into all our training...  Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,663
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,663 |
I find the whole caliber debate funny in the sense that there is still such a debate after all the data we have over the past 25 years. Any of the common cartridges will get the job done. If a .45 makes you more warm and fuzzy because you trust a bigger bullet over data, then so be it; you'll be fine.
If you trust data over all else, you'll be fine too. No cartridge/bullet combination is ever going to turn a bad shot into a good shot so obsessing over infinite minutia is a wast of time, you're better off spending that time at the range honing your skills to where the bullet/caliber isn't a factor.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,663
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,663 |
I'd happily fight with ball ammo. I'm still gonna win.
Travis Exactly, that's the sort of confidence you need.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,663
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,663 |
That's good stuff Jeff. Every time I hear someone say "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" I've started asking them to show me what they mean. 100% of the time so far guys have just demonstrated a slow draw. At some point they've gotta move on to the other half of the catch phrase. Smooth is fast and that's why we incorporate gross motor skills into all our training... Travis Keeping in mind that you need to make your movements efficient by removing any unnecessary movement. Then get it all smooth, and eventually the fast will come. Always start by doing it right, then do it fast but still right. The fast comes with the learned motor skills with oodles of repetition.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301 |
Call me the odd man out. I'd choose the one that's easist to carry. Typical gold-badge cop. My former Captain used to say the same thing. Yeah...yeah...all them big ole' guns won't do a person any good if ain't in your pocket. I will tell a story that changed my thoughts about always being armed. I've told it before, but it's worth repeating. Remember, this is from the perspective of a thirty year cop that spent 20 of it "under cover". One Friday afternoon, as I headed out of town to go hunting, I stopped at a local gas station for fuel (and beer). Mind you, I live in a small town, in a different county from the urban blight I work in. The clerk recognized me as a regular customer and turned the pump on. I dug around in the bed of the truck, organizing things in the cooler etc., as the gas pumped. When I walked into the store to pay, she frantically screamed "Did you see those two guys who just ran out of here?!! They were robbing me! I told them you were a cop and they ran out!" I hadn't seen shyyt...my back was to the door. I had a truck FULL of guns, but nothing in my old overalls. That was about the happiest ending I can imagine that scenareo having, and from that day forward, I vowed to be armed at all times, if possible. It's easy to be prepared when you think you need to be. All the time? Not so much. Whatever a person wants to carry...they need to CARRY. I don't care if it's to the mailbox... Pat, you know I was just funnin' ya... but a lot of folks may not, which is why I've quoted your entire post here. Your point is HUGE. I also ALWAYS carry. As I type this I'm in my bathrobe in my study, but I've got a subcompact 9mm in my bathrobe pocket and a .45 in the drawer. I had a similar experience to yours nearly 20 years ago... a guy I had helped put away for drug trafficking, a BIG guy who had a serious hate on me for a number of reasons, was s'posed to be in the penitentiary for the next 4 years when I came across him sudden-like. He had vowed to dismember me with his bare hands, etc... and on the day in question he suddenly appeared in front of me at the local 7-11 when all I had on me was a ballpoint pen. Lucky for me a uniform city cop was there as well. Current g/f thinks it's funny that I always carry, but a couple of times already she's asked me, "You packin'?" when we've been in the Metroplex, and has been relieved to hear my affirmative answer. As a good friend is fond of saying, "Pants go on, gun goes on, pants go off, gun is within reach." I follow that every day.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
That's good stuff Jeff. Every time I hear someone say "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" I've started asking them to show me what they mean. 100% of the time so far guys have just demonstrated a slow draw. At some point they've gotta move on to the other half of the catch phrase. Smooth is fast and that's why we incorporate gross motor skills into all our training... Travis Shut your gross motor mouth.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301 |
I find the whole caliber debate funny in the sense that there is still such a debate after all the data we have over the past 25 years. Any of the common cartridges will get the job done. If a .45 makes you more warm and fuzzy because you trust a bigger bullet over data, then so be it; you'll be fine.
If you trust data over all else, you'll be fine too. No cartridge/bullet combination is ever going to turn a bad shot into a good shot so obsessing over infinite minutia is a wast of time, you're better off spending that time at the range honing your skills to where the bullet/caliber isn't a factor. I carry a 1911 for several reasons. First of all it is what I have. Secondly it fits me better than other options I have tried. Thirdly I shoot it better or as well as other options I have tried. About the only equal for me is a short barrel single action such as a Ruger Vaquero with a 4 5/8" barrel but the 1911 is more practical for me to to carry. Lastly I have confidence in the bigger bullet. Hollow point bullets have come a long way and I carry them for my defense rounds but there are boatloads of cases where hollow point bullets did not perform as expected. Stuff happens. With my 45 I am also confident my 230 gr cast truncated cone bullets will do the job. Lots of people have been killed with a 22 short but I will stick with my 45 for now.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,076
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 14,076 |
At work I carry a .380 because it is easier to conceal and there is a policy at work about no guns, and I don't plan on getting killed for following policy any time soon. I typically have that in my jacket pocket. When I go out to town or any other place I carry a 1911 on my hip with the .380 in my jacket pocket as well.
I really don't know that 'killing' power is what you need to concern yourself with. I think the fact that you can put lead in the air will deter about 99.9% of the schit that is gonna happen to you. The other 0.01% you just need to be a good shot. At the end of the day it isn't about killing the other guy or not it is about you walking away with your life.
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