been thinking hard on this-maybe to hard, but would you rather have 10 rounds of 45 ACP or 16 rounds of 9mm in a conceal carry weapon?

I would rather have the ammo in a gun I was most familiar and most confident with.

This is why he still carries a Patterson Colt. Got his new off the production line...

You need 16 rounds if you plan on missing a lot. I carry a .45 with 7+1 myself. I'd bet money I can hit a man at 50 yards easily, much less at 7.

....especially if they messed with one of your dogs

that's kinda what I was thinking-which ever I can hit with/handle best! Looks like I get to buy 2 guns and see which I shoot the best!

any suggestions on what 45 to look at?

I thought that was understood from the get go. My favorite .45 is the Lightweight Commander I bought from Mark. It's pre-Combat Commander w/alloy frame.

I'm so confident in my pistol shooting, I only carry 1 magazine...
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16

\

GFY


I still carry a S&W Model 66 four inch,and a spare speed loader.Remember those?


Once again, I reiterate...


GFY.

Unless accosted by more than one or two assailants, 10 rounds of .45+P, ACP , 200 grain hollow-points should get the "job" done.

That said... in a fire-fight, the "situation" plus one's own adrenalin tends to cause one's aim to often be inaccurate (the "spray & pray" inclination) ... so you need to think about your own capabilities (including your "cool") and decide if you'd rather have 10 or 16 rounds to use in your defense.

Frankly, I'd prefer to have the 16 rounds of 9x19mm+P hollow-points. While the "9" is less powerful than the .45 ACP, a good, solid "hit" with a 9mm+P hollow-point will get-'er-done... and there's 6 more of 'em with which to make that "hit".

Also one tends to have "tunnel vision" under great stress, so don't forget to take a wide, but quick "look-around" after taking down the first aggressor. His "buddy" may be comin' at ya from the side.

Jus' my 2�...


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Lately, I've been carrying my Glock 17. So 18 for me.

But I've carried every handgun I've owned since I got my ccl, including single action revolvers.

For me it is the tried and tested 1911 in 45. Eight plus one and if I am going somewhere I feel might be a little less than safe there are two extra mags for a total of twenty five.

Yep. Great guns

Daily carry is a Colt Commander in .45, 7+1.

If I have to go to Little Rock or Pine Bluff I switch to a lightweight Commander in .38 Super. 10+1

lubbockdave,

I suggest you purchase a .45. And being the shameless person I am will tell you I have a Colt Commander Light Weight model with Pachmayr grips, extended safety and has been accurized. It even comes with an extra magazine! I will let you have it for a meer $900.

Six rounds of .38 Special.

Go to the Hand gun forum to ask this question, you'll get more advice that will make your head spin. :>)

Sig P220 SAO (Single Action Only).

My EDC is a 5+1 or 7+1 Springfield XDS 45 with a spare mag or 2. If dress allows and I'm traveling to town or an urban area I'll carry my 16+1 S&W SD9. When either of those wont work I have a Taurus .380 I can slip in my pocket.

The only time I feel uneasy is when I'm carrying the 380. Situational awareness is likely more important than caliber or capacity.

RonT, I must admit that I've never been in a situation to where you could cut a lock washer off my butt so I can't say for sure just how I'd react. In today's climate I try not to go into places that appear to be goblin-infested. I go to Sam's once or twice a month, the grocery store once or twice a week. If I am pressed to go to Wal-Mart I go early, usually on a Sunday morning. Other than that I stay home quite a bit. Thankfully, my traveling days are behind me.

So, I can't say for sure how I'd react but if I do have to pull my .45 there's a good chance somebody is gonna get shot.

This.




And This.



I'm supremely familiar with, and confident in, the Sig P226 in 9mm. I'm even more familiar with, and confident in, the Sig P245. And I wish like hell I could get familiar with, and confident in, pistols that didn't cost so damned much.

FC

Good thread for me. I didn't grow up hunting, or around guns, so I got a late start. Other than a few .22s, my Deer rifles, and shotguns I'm really not familiar with guns.

I bought a cheap AR-15, and recently purchased a sig 380. Looking at this, makes me think I should have went bigger, since it holds 7+1.

I was comfortable with the size, and a have a "nubby" trigger finger, so it felt really comfortable, and I figured that's what counted the most. I spend time at the indoor range, and try soaking up knowledge, but really look forward to learning more here.

It wasn't until 6 weeks ago, I even got my CCW.

Check out RBCD ammo. .380 at 1,900 feet per second! I purchased .380, 9mm, .44mag and .45 for testing. It is unbelieveable.

I carry a Glock 19 most of the time. I like having the extra rounds, I would hate to loose a gun fight because I ran out of ammo. Always have an extra magazine close by.

Sometimes you could have multiple assailants.

Food for thought,



Be safe out there. Don't be a victim.

I carry the Fiocchi/Hornady XTP load after seeing this YouTube test

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EDsPgyhI7To

I've always thought the best strategy when carrying is that if you actually have to defend yourself, you should only have to shoot someone once to end the fight. That is why I always carry a 45 ACP when I carry- that and the fact I shoot it really well and it hits exactly where my finger points. Not concerned with how much ammo it holds (7+1), but hitting my assailant and getting the hell out of there is of utmost importance to me.
I do carry extra mags, for protection of others around me who may inadvertantly get in the line of fire of the bad guys.

IMHO, the best deal going right now is the Springfield Armory Range Officer .45's. Hard to go wrong with any of them, including the least expensive in the line of 1911's. They are all top flight weapons, shoot exceedingly well, and handle great. At least with my big hands, your milage may vary a bit....

Bob

I carry a Glock 36. It's 6+1 rounds of 45 and a spare 7 round clip. It's virtually the same size as a G19. I've thought about getting a G19 for capacity, but I'm not John McClane and can't see any reason to need more than 14 rounds of 45 ACP.

I've tried carrying a full size 45 and even a light weight officers model but the weight was always too much. I can carry the G36 and forget it's there. IMHO it's the perfect modern light weight officers 45.

Wow, a little sensitive, I'll bet it has pink grips......

**********************************************************

Yes, my friend...

I feel much the same as you feel & do... mostly stay home and watch TV or "play" on the net, but I occasionally wander out to the grocery, Wal*Mart, Sam's Club or one of the local gun shops... that's because I'm an "old guy" and my home is very comfortable and secure... and has everything I want or need in it. I don't "go" a lot... not because I'm afraid to go out, but because I simply don't need to "go" a lot, but I "go" whenever I have a need to do so.

Certainly, these "times" tend to make one more "uneasy" and keeps me more alert when I'm "out & about" outside of the house than I've felt ever before in my 79 years, but my high-capacity 9x19 filled with 18 nasty ol' +P hollow-points in the after-market 18 round magazine plus one-in-the-chamber tends to make-me-feel a bit more "comfortable" and confident in my ability to handle 'most any kind of "emergency".

Then, too... I'm retired and have the time to do a fair amount of shooting at my club's pistol and rifle ranges... and am confident I could effectively "hit" whatever I needed to hit if it was necessary. But then, I don't "make-the-rules", I just follow 'em.

That said... I'd much rather NOT be forced to defend my wife or myself... but I will if I must. That's a "given"... and a "shame" that it's even necessary... but it is...!


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

This....

I carried some sort of snubnose revolver for years just recently I got a Glock 19 & I ain't looking back.


Mike

this is exactly what I have been considering...what holster do you use for the 36?

Wishful thinking only shooting a bad guy one time. Hint, keep shooting until the threat is no longer there.

Smart man.

Bob,
I think you need to read your own sig line.



Have you ever heard of people doing drugs? Ever heard what chemicals can do to a persons physical abilities? For this reason alone, I prefer more ammo always over bigger ammo. I do occasionally carry a smaller firearm with 8 round capacity, but my preference is higher capacity.

If you truly shoot well, then that actually negates much of the advantage of shooting a larger caliber.

Glad to hear that you like it and are still carrying it. Here's to hoping that you never, ever HAVE TO use it.

heck, I just rotate the CCW carry duty among a number of capable pistols and revolvers. I shoot them all, know them all, and have confidence with each and every one of them.
Lately, Smith & Wesson model 442 and the little XDS .45 auto have gotten most of the carry time. With cold weather finally here, for awhile at least, others come into rotation. Today, it will be the S&W 65, worn OTW, along with two speed loaders.

I find it hard to fault the 19, especially with the "NY" trigger springs installed to give it a 12 lb trigger (a side benefit being the trigger breaks crisper instead of that staple gun feel).

In the woods around here where running into not-shot-at-much feral hogs close up and personal is common while doing bird counts and such, a similarly-sized Glock 29 (10mm) is brung along instead, same trigger set up.

All that said, a plain 'ol Airweight J-frame in .38 is usually close at hand around the house.

But if it had to be just one, it would be a Glock 19.

Birdwatcher

.

That video was racist. It creates the impression that black folks seek to victimize white folks with violent attacks. While true, it's not permitted to create that impression among the general public, so you were wrong to post it. Shame.

More ammo the better. 9mm with 2 spare mags.

The tired, and retarded, saying of "only need that many rounds if you miss a lot" is downright dangerous and irresponsible to teach or repeat to anyone who might mistakenly listen to it.

It only works on a range with paper targets. One target at a time of course. When someone can reliably foresee the future, then I'll listen to him about how many rounds I'll need.

I cannot predict the circumstances of my gunfight. The location, the number of attackers, the type of weapons they may have, lighting, weather, etc etc etc.

And don't even get me started on this one shot "knock down power" BS. Hopefully someday these BS stories will stop.

Only time I'd say carry a low capacity .45 is if your magazine capacity is limited by law. And only then if you can shoot it better than a 9.

Glock 30S for me.

I always carry some spares.

God willing you never need it brother.

Nice blaster though

Just the inexpensive Don Hume IWB holster. It only costs about $30 but I haven't found anything better no matter the price. The DH is made of thin leather perfectly molded. It rides low on my strong side, just in front of my back pocket.

14 rounds of 45 is plenty for me. If I start having illusions of TV style shootouts with gangs of attackers, I'll start carrying my AR.

I carry spare ammo regardless of the gun I'm carrying. i don't neccesarily carry spare ammo because I'm expecting to have to discharge that many rounds, I carry the spares because I realize Mr'.Murphy, of Murphy's Law fame is alive and well, and he is an obnoxious, sadistic little prick that likes to stick his nose in things where he is not needed.

That said I also understand how much stress is involved, couoked with the results of the bodies's release of adrenaline into one's system and accept the fact that no matter how well you shoot on the range. When S hits the F in a really real situation, all of that is going to go out the windows.

Thanks. Yeah, God willing. Same to you.

Can someone cite a case where a civilian concealed carrier was able to perform a tactical reload during a shootout? I've heard that there's never been such a recorded case.

Randy, I have a Glock 36 as well. I have two Colt Commanders and have tried every holster design but haven't found one that I really like. I finally settled on carrying the Colt inside my belt in the small of my back. I can carry it all day in this position pretty comfortably and it's quickly accessible. I'm not planning on having to meet Marshall Dillon in the street so quick draw is not my main concern.

fugg it, I'm going belt fed.

Is there more than one???

When I heard "10 rounds" it made me think .45. That made me think 1911.

So I said "16 rounds".

I like a 1911 Commander. I just haven't found any good way to carry it except exposed on a good belt. For CC I prefer the 36.

Give the Don Hume IWB holster a try worn just in front of your wallet. It's quick to get to and very comfortable, even driving long distances. I do usually wear an undershirt, under the gun and a pullover over it. It's a fairly inexpensive experiment.

Dave, Listen to Pira. Everything he said is dead nuts on.

Look for a 9mm in the Glock 19 / Sig 228 size class. They are small enough to carry everyday, but large enough to actually do some good in if events turn unpleasant. Hood Rats run in packs, and no one who was ever in a gun fight ops to carry less ammo after the fact.

Even better. I've been trying to figure out how to conceal carry a Mk19

Would you settle for a "pistol" AR with a Sig brace. They are legal as a CCW weapon in Colorado so long as the barrel is under 12" in length.

Ha. Im planning to build one as a toy. As of yet, I haven't seen real reliability in them. Especially in barrel lengths under 11.5 inches. Unlike carbine and rifle length, there doesn't seem to be an industry consensus on gas port size and buffer weight. I imagine I'll have to mess around with it to get it right. But that's half the fun

There was at least one I know of in the Ayoob Files a few years back. Retired USMC, 45 ACP at a Subway, tactical reload and finished the guy off after reloading.

There has been a few. A couple I can recall involved the CCW using multiple firearms on multiple aggressors,

Jewlery store in La was one, and the Deas case was another

Perhaps one should take something from the old west, carry two guns.

Call me the odd man out. I'd choose the one that's easist to carry.

Oh. And the guy in Fla who emptied the mag of an M-16 and reloaded with a mag that had been attached to the weapon.

I've been waiting on someone to advocate a back up gun. Carrying 16 rounds in a gun is overkill for many. But carrying two friggin guns is totally rational....

Mad Max disarming before seeing Tina Turner in Beyond Thunderdome, comes to mind.

In descending order of badassacity

Three inch N frame:


Three inch K frame:


Two inch K frame:


J frame snubby:

Cool four guns with the total capacity of my Sig and 3/4 of a spare magazine

*shrug*

And there was the home invasion here in Colorado where Grandma emptied 3 revolvers hitting multiple assaliants on her way to her shotgun.

There are times when my full-size XdM in a Crossbreed holster with 20 rds on tap and another 19 in a spare mag is comforting. Most of the time I'm carrying a 1911 with a spare mag or two.

That same Crossbreed will also hold my full size XdM in 45 with 14 rds on tap and then another 13 rds in a spare mag.

I'd rather have extra ammo I didn't need than not have enough.

A sample of one to support an argument?

I'll be ordering the last couple of pieces for mine today. I'll let you know if I find the magic parts combination.

This is a long-debated issue, but usually asks you to pick between a 6-shot revolver and an automatic. But the factors that guide a person's decision are the generally the same.

1. Rule #1 for being in a gunfight is "Bring a gun." So, both guns fit meet that requirement.

2. Also true is: The best gun to have in a gunfight is the one you have with you. (Meaning, many people buy a gun for CC then get tired of carrying. Then they start carrying only in situations when they think they have an increased chance of needing their gun. Then they just stop carrying altogether, because it's too inconvenient). So if you're only willing to carry a micro .380, well...it's better than nothing. But...

3. Nobody in a gunfight wishes he had a smaller gun and fewer bullets.

4. Comparing the 2 choices offered here (10 rds of .45 ACP vs. 16 rds of 9mm), it makes you think: If you have a problem that can't be solved with 10 rounds, your problem can't be solved with a gun. (But...see #3, supra).

5. If you're getting mugged, 10 rounds is more than enough. If you hear gunfire down at the food court in the mall and you're going to go "help," 16 rounds might not be enough.

One of the first responses here said something like it's best to have the gun that you shoot the best. I can't argue with that. If you read about armed citizens needing their gun and how many shots they fired, I can't recall the last time I saw anybody who fired more than 10. Like others have mentioned, if you have spare ammo with you, the problem is solved anyway. That basically makes the debate center on whether a 9mm is "enough gun." (Here we go!) I think that, given modern bullets, it is. That said, I carry a .45 more than I carry a 9mm, but I do carry a 9mm without hesitation (usually a 6-shot auto with an extended 7 round spare mag).

Perhaps the better way to get out peoples' true opinions would be to ask this question: If you knew you were going to "need" your gun at some point in the next 6 months, what would you carry?

For me, as much as it shames me to say it, I'd likely stop carrying the sub-compact 9mm. But, I'd still have no qualms about carrying a 9mm. I'd likely carry either my .45 or my 9mm Glock.

And before this thing becomes a book, I'll answer the original question straight up, because I HATE it when I ask a specific question and people don't answer it! Which would I rather have, 10 rounds of 45 ACP or 16 rounds of 9mm in a CCW? Today (it might change tomorrow) I'll say 16 rounds of 9mm. Why? Because the size of a 9mm that will carry 16 rounds (G19 or a similar double stack) isn't significantly different than a .45 that will hold 10 rounds. I have faith that the 9mm, loaded with good self-defense ammo will adequately protect me and since I have equal faith in both .45 and 9mm, I might as well have more ammo. Thinking beyond the original question, if I carry a G17 mag as my spare, I have 17 more rounds on tap, should a reload be necessary.

(By the way, whatever I choose will ALWAYS have night sights, and I will always carry a light).

Good luck in your decision!

Do you think this lady was glad she only had 5 rds or wishes she had more? She even hit him in the face (she connected with all 5 rds I believe) and he didn't die.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/georgia-mom-shoots-home-intruder-face-article-1.1234400

I carry 8 rounds of 22LR.



Travis

Good point, Ryan. Likely compounding the problem there was using FMJ ammo. If she had been shooting better ammo, I think she stood a much better chance of not even getting to round #5. But, who can say...?

The problem is your gun is a 9 Oh, wait, or is it just with rifles that you like to mix and match? Ha, sorry, but couldn't resist.

Having a gun guarantees nothing.

All contingencies cannot be planned for.

Pick your poison and just remember to never quit. Otherwise, stock up on Ramen noodles and lock yourself indoors for the rest of your life.



Travis

You fugg one goat...




Travis

This

an likely to carry

Bob always refers to you as the "odd" one Pat.


almost hated to mention it, fearing it will crush your feelers.

I carry the gun that I shoot best and can still carry concealed all day, which for me is an S&W Model 13, FBI configuration (three inch bull barrel, round butt frame).

With regular range sessions (once a week, minimum) I can shoot an automatic just as well, but can't afford that much ammo, so I choose the handgun that I shoot most naturally, requiring the least range time and ammo expenditure to remain highly proficient.

Bob wears Ltppowell underwear.

Yeah, the kind that never run out of ammo.

You've got some very nice guns.

I was actually referring to reloading a single weapon in the midst of a gunfight.

All silliness aside, this is what I carry most of the time...

Charter Arms .44 Spcl.. full of the Blazer ammo with the 200gr. Gold-Dots.

A guy swapped it to me for CAD work I did. He already bobbed the hammer. I installed a front sight so it would hit what you were pointing at.

It hits good at 7 yards, isn't too bulky. In Winter I can carry it in a coat pocket.

It's controllable but has a Big bark. Only 5 shots, so I carry a speed-loader in the truck with an extra 5

And if it gets stolen in the truck, I'm not out a ton.

If she had stopped to reload her revolver, she would of been dead. If she had a Glock 19, she would of still had 2 rounds left and could of reloaded in about the same time it took her to change guns.

Regardless, she used more the 6, and for the normal shooter a semi-auto is easier easier and quicker to reload.

That's a damned good choice. I've got two of those, myself. Love the concept. For some reason, though, I can't get myself to carry a handgun that I don't feel at least a little sentimental about, as I do my old S&W blued steel revolvers. It could be that one will shoot a handgun he feels sentimental about better than one he doesn't. Well, maybe, anyway. All I know is that I don't like carrying an ugly gun.

What were the details of that situation? Did she keep missing COM? Were the revolvers .22s?

quite an emotional fellow aren't you?



perhaps a Master's degree in psychology will help you sort that out.





Nevermind. You're just shallow and superficial.

Wow! I'm sensing a great deal of rage on your part. You know it's not good for you, right? You need to let it go.

trh , ALL of your attempts at stupidity on this thread have been a success , you can STFU now.


Mike

sensing rage?

Tell ma and pa they pissed away a lot of money on that Master's.

My doctor actually appreciates all you've done for my health.

The laughter has worked wonders, not only to my BP, but the occasional convulsions have helped me perfect bladder control despite the history of prostate issues.

Every time I have to tinkle, I think of you...

Thanks!

whew that's good to know!

somedays it feels like I'm the only one


though I do rotate in the deFlave and Bristoe underoos depending on my mood.... cocky or hillwilliam philosopher

Pira 114 pretty much sums it up.

Thinking that you can predict the factors of an attack is pure fantasy.

Missing your target is unacceptable. I wouldn't want Mickey shooting at me w/ anything.

Any gun that is reliable is better than nothing.

Choosing a carry gun because it is easy to carry is intellectual and physical laziness.

mike r

He means that Bob is actually wearing Pat's underwear. Pat didn't have any use for them.

No grown man should use the word tinkle; ever.

Hmmm, highly suspect.

RWE, trying to communicate w/ TRH is like trying to teach a room full of Down Syndrome kids to whistle.

mike r

These "what-you-should-carry" threads are always entertaining.

Typical gold-badge cop. My former Captain used to say the same thing.

Entertaining like

"Let's see how fast I need to go to get this spider off the windshield"

or entertaining like,

"hey, I think I have crabs in my goatee"

There are still those who think there is a big difference between 9mm & .45 ACP...I'm still trying to figure out if there is any meaningful difference other than testosterone.

That said, I carry a .45 ACP but I do so because I like the gun, not because I feel the .45 really brings anything more meaningful to the table in modern defensive hollow point ammunition. You get a little more frontal diameter with the .45 ACP vs the 9mm which will give you better barrier penetration in 124+P or 147 standard pressure loadings.

I think it's WELL proven that any of the modern defensive cartridges will get the job done. It is also well established that most modern pistols are more than adequately reliable for concealed carry purposes.

So pick the gun you like in the cartridge you like.

ROR!

"Entertaining" as in like what happens you're sitting at the bar by the boat launch at a Wisconsin lake and a FISHTAB shows up with a brand-new Ford pickup with a brand-new 30-foot stern-drive on the trailer...

Yep.

It's also WELL proven that most people don't practice/train with their pistols enough to make any real difference in what pistol or ammo they carry.

How many shots for a trained officer Wilson?

George in SD, if you interpret that in the context of my entire post it makes more sense. I don't presume to make decisions for others but do try to apply critical thinking in my own decisions.

mike r

On-duty uniform LEO's aren't CCW private citizens.

Lubbockdave: The answer to your concealed carry question is... NEITHER!
Instead go with the Glock Model 22 in 40 S&W with high capacity magazine (15 rounds) and night sights!
I carried (and still do) this pistol professionally and privately for going on 25 years now.
Have as yet to find fault with this pistol/caliber for my many and varied uses.
Best of luck to you with whichever you choose.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I'll take 45 ACP anytime.

My first contact with a 45 ACP was almost sixty years ago. It was an old military 45 that I had to qualify with in the Navy. They were so loose from being fired so much that I don't believe you could hit the broad side of a barn with it even if you were standing inside the barn.

As a result over the years I've said you didn't have to hit your target with the 45. Just the sound of it going off and the bullet going by your ear was enough to kill a person. With that said I own both a full size and a compact 45.





I've also been known to carry the S&W "J" Frame pictured above.

U sir, owe me for one coffee-festooned keyboard...

This is so easy, I'll leave it to everyone's imagination, but all I can tell you is there was a huge onslaught of units emptying out the Navy's arsenal in Indianapolis of retired 1911s because the 9MM Beretta SUCKS as a stopper. That is why as much as I love my 1911s, I know carry either a Glock 21 or a 31 for the simple reason of more is better. The 9 has never impressed me, then again, I will defer to the experts here.

I love Commander size 1911 45's, and was perfectly content to carry them for years, but currently carry a Glock 19 9mm. With an upgraded trigger, Trijicon night sights, an extended slide release, and an upgraded solid steel recoil rod, I can consistently put more rounds on target, faster, than I ever could with one of my 1911's. I like it, and don't miss carrying a 1911 whatsoever.

Every time this conversation comes up (and it comes up a lot), the same tired old nonsense gets thrown around without any real evidence either way if it is accurate information gathered from anecdotal information or just good old boys discussing guns at the local bar.

In my opinion only, the .45 has been proven to have more effect on human flesh and stopping power given best hollow point bullets and decently lethal upper body penetration.

I've read enough anecdotal evidence to throw my opinion this direction and your milage may vary.

Also, I've read enough stories of CCW shooters emptying magazines of all sizes and not hitting squat except maybe the house down the street or their own car windshield, even with the perp within arms reach.

My point is that one WELL PLACED shot with a sufficiently large hollow point is enough deterrent to outweigh a hundred shots lobbed in utter fear and hoping to connect with something. In my opinion, of the currently (and historically) available rounds that are of carry size and capability, the .45 meets that criteria best of all of them with good hollow point rounds and sufficient practice to shoot instinctively.

Now, the other argument isn't necessarily how small you can go- IMHO, the .380 is marginal in a defense situation, but in this situation any gun is better than no gun- the argument is that too many carry too much gun that they simply couldn't shoot well in a defense situation no matter the opponent. Small, short barreled .44's of all flavor, snubbie's loaded with plus P or .357 Mag ammo, and other large and heavy weapons are best suited to movies and tiny actors who need a penis enlargement. Not only that, many of the larger framed pistols (including autos) are decidedly difficult to conceal and most people couldn't reload them quickly and efficiently enough to defend themselves between shots much less shoot well enough once reloaded.

Your milage may vary in this regard and I'm quite sure every one of you thinks you will kill every perp who dares to point a gun in your direction. However, evidence of past cases tends to disagree with this assessment. I don't overly estimate my abilities- I'm quite sure I will have the same fear induced trauma that all on here would have- including many LEO's I've talked to. However, for what it's worth, I will have a gun in my hand that fits me, shoots well, has proper ammo, and I know intimately and shoot instinctively, including reloading- of which I usually carry at least 2 additional mags on my carry chassis.

Bob

Apples oranges.

Military is restricted to ball. If I were restricted to ball, I would go with a 45 also. But as a carry weapon here, I and the OP have the option of using high quality self-defense ammo which negates a huge majority of the advantage the 45 would have over the 9mm.

I think I might carry one of my old ones.

Yeah...yeah...all them big ole' guns won't do a person any good if ain't in your pocket.

I will tell a story that changed my thoughts about always being armed. I've told it before, but it's worth repeating. Remember, this is from the perspective of a thirty year cop that spent 20 of it "under cover".

One Friday afternoon, as I headed out of town to go hunting, I stopped at a local gas station for fuel (and beer). Mind you, I live in a small town, in a different county from the urban blight I work in. The clerk recognized me as a regular customer and turned the pump on. I dug around in the bed of the truck, organizing things in the cooler etc., as the gas pumped. When I walked into the store to pay, she frantically screamed "Did you see those two guys who just ran out of here?!! They were robbing me! I told them you were a cop and they ran out!"

I hadn't seen shyyt...my back was to the door. I had a truck FULL of guns, but nothing in my old overalls.

That was about the happiest ending I can imagine that scenareo having, and from that day forward, I vowed to be armed at all times, if possible.

It's easy to be prepared when you think you need to be. All the time? Not so much. Whatever a person wants to carry...they need to CARRY. I don't care if it's to the mailbox...

Probably the largest handgun you can conceal in a Florida classroom.

Nice Webley. Is that a .38 S&W?

Absolutely.

In your profile you list "reloading" as a hobby. You EDC a .38 special. Handloading .38 is cheap, cheap, cheap.

How can you not be able to afford "that much ammo"?

Because I feel sorry for him, I will point out that he was referring to the semi automatic ammo when he alluded to "can't afford that much ammo".

This changes the whole issue, because reloading 9mm ain't cheap. Nor available in bulk for a decent price.

Looks like a 455 to me...

Pat, you know I was just funnin' ya... but a lot of folks may not, which is why I've quoted your entire post here. Your point is HUGE.

I also ALWAYS carry. As I type this I'm in my bathrobe in my study, but I've got a subcompact 9mm in my bathrobe pocket and a .45 in the drawer.

I had a similar experience to yours nearly 20 years ago... a guy I had helped put away for drug trafficking, a BIG guy who had a serious hate on me for a number of reasons, was s'posed to be in the penitentiary for the next 4 years when I came across him sudden-like. He had vowed to dismember me with his bare hands, etc... and on the day in question he suddenly appeared in front of me at the local 7-11 when all I had on me was a ballpoint pen. Lucky for me a uniform city cop was there as well.

Current g/f thinks it's funny that I always carry, but a couple of times already she's asked me, "You packin'?" when we've been in the Metroplex, and has been relieved to hear my affirmative answer.

Thanks for the backup Doc. It was huge to me.

Trouble is usually a "come as you are party" and doesn't suffer fools lightly. Unless I am naked, I am armed.

For most intelligent creatures, it only takes one of those little warning sessions to make you a believer....

So let me see if I follow: if a 45 (apple) is superior to a 9MM (orange) when both are ball rounds, but if both are upgraded to hollow points the apple's stopping power capabilities are not enhanced yet the orange's are?


I'll take the 45...

Training doesn't necessarily require expenditure of large amounts of ammo. Extreme example: one of the best Master Class IPSC/IDPA shooters out there currently showed up and won his first IDPA match without having fired more than a couple dozen live rounds in his life to that point... he'd been training by watching IPSC videos and dry-firing.

But not to be extreme or ridiculous... the REAL skills you need to proficient in with your defensive firearm are not necessarily marksmanship issues.

I read an article recently about this. The author broke down hundreds of civilian defensive shootings and found that the skills needed most often aren't the skills most people practice at the range. But standing on the firing line with your gun in your hands in the ready position does not equate to the starting condition of most civilian defensive shootings!

The author pointed out that the most common skill needed in defensive shootings was accessing your firearm. That means getting the gun out of the glove box/gunsafe/laundry basket behind the door, or in the case of the more preparedness-minded, drawing it from the holster.

How often do you draw from your holster when you go to the range? It should be the thing you practice MOST! And be honest with yourself: if your daily carry is a J-frame in your front pocket, then that's the gun and carry method you should practice at the range! Practicing with a fullsize Glock in a Kydex belt holster when you usually carry a pocket revolver is not going to help you if you get into a deadly force situation at the 7-11 tonight!

Other high-priority real-world gunfighting skills that few people practice are things like moving to cover (true cover, not just concealment) while accessing your firearm, shooting one-handed (while accessing your cell phone to call 911), etc. When you practice, use a shot timer to push yourself to better performance, and use a realistic target... lifesize human photo targets are cheap and effective training tools.

Most of these skills can be practiced without firing a single live round. And once you graduate to live fire, think about what you need to practice most... getting one or two really good hits on your target's upper chest area at typical defensive range, say 4-7 yards. Combine that with practicing your draw, and you can get a LOT of good training in with little ammo expenditure.

Here's a simple and economical practice plan that won't break the ammo bank:

1. Rig up, empty gun. Using a timer to start yourself and facing your humanoid target, draw your gun to full aim 30 times.
2. Repeat, but this time dry-fire one time at your target's upper chest, or head, or pelvis.
3. Put an empty magazine in your gun and rack the slide. Point the empty gun at your target. On the timer signal, eject the empty mag and reload with a magazine from your belt/pocket/purse. Repeat 30 times.
4. Draw your empty but "ready" (cocked & locked, however you carry it routinely) firearm and shoot one dryfire round at your target. Repeat 30 times (or 50, or 100... it won't cost you any more to do 200 reps than one!)

Now let's proceed to live fire...

4. Load your gun with a magazine containing one round. On signal, draw and fire one round at your target. Reload, repeat 30 times. Start slow for form for the first half dozen rounds, then gradually force yourself to draw-and-shoot faster. Practice each reload as if your life depended on it.
5. Same as #4, but with 2 rounds in the gun (one in mag, one up the spout), and fire a double-tap each time (2 shots with one sight picture). Reload. Repeat 15 times (30 rounds)
6. With your firearm fully charged, draw and fire one round on the target with your strong hand only. Repeat for 15 rounds total.
7. With your firearm fully charged, transfer the loaded firearm into your support hand and fire 15 single rounds with the support hand only.

That's 90 rounds of ammo expended, and you'll have covered the basic skills you need for proficiency with your defensive handgun: drawing, getting one or two fast and accurate hits on your assailant, and shooting with one hand only. You can cut back to 45 rounds if you need to save money on ammo, but remember that there is no cost to dry-firing.

Most of the people that have the strongest opinions about this type of schit don't even own a timer.



Travis

Shooting man-on-man often leaves the 1911 crowd a little disheartened as well.

While they're reloading the guy with that "Ugly POS" G17 finishes all the plates.


Travis

Genius. I have changed my sig line accordingly.

As you suggest, Doc, most of my practice with my revolver is dry fire, draw and fire from concealed carry. At the range (where, 9 times out of ten I have the facility entirely to myself), I'm also very economical, focusing on drawing and firing from concealed carry, working on smoothness, from which comes speed. I only need fifty rounds for a good deal of valuable work at the range, because here's how I do it: I load up five empties and one live round. Then I rotate the cylinder to a random position, then close it and holster the gun. Then, from various starting positions, I draw and fire, focusing on smoothness and sureness, only gradually building speed. Each time I do this, I have no knowledge whether it's a live round or an empty. Then, after a few dozen repetitions of this, I load two rounds along with the empties, and repeat. Only the last dozen are loaded six at a time.

But most of my trigger time is at home with snap caps, drilling draw and fire from concealed carry.

some of the best advice I've seen on this subject here offered by Doc Rocket and Lt. Powell


can't tell you how many weird looks I've gotten from folks at our rifle range preparing for sheep season. (alright full disclosure most folks give me a weird look upon meeting me)

set targets at 100, 200, & 325 yards

check scope zero at 100, if all good


drop and do 50 pushups, hop up and using my backpack from a rest, a shot at 100, a shot at 200 and a shot at 325



and also when I was guiding used to do the reverse, milk jugs at 40 yards, 30 yards, 20 yards and 10 yards, rifle slung, dismount and shoot those jugs as fast as my lil hands could work the bolt and paste crosshairs. Starting at the farthest and working in to the closest jug.


you play the way you practice

I agree with most everything I have to say.



Travis

Or use an "Ugly POS" 21....

I usually stay out of these because I disagree with all but about three people who post on them. But this is worth saying....

While I agree with the "slow is smooth-smooth is fast" doctrine in theory, it gets all jacked up in application.

People think that if slow=smooth and smooth=fast, then slow=fast. And it just ain't so. Going slow is only a tool to create the smoothidity. Once the smoothocity is there you should work on getting faster, not keep practicing slowly.

At some point you've gotta take that smokewagon out and go to work with it. And it might not be pretty, and in fact it'll probably have a lot lot of ugly, but it'll be real. When you've gotta really draw, it'll be at balls out speed. So you owe it to yourself to find out what you're capable of cold, at balls out speed.

And I firmly believe that the first round of every practice session should be at balls out speed. Seeing how you shoot after forty minutes of warmup is no indication of your actual ability. But most people have no desire to see what their cold and on demand ability is, because it probably ain't good.

OR




So, you can't get the hang of clearing leather on semis unless you have more bullets (?), when, after its all said and done, you only shot 50 from your wheel gun routine for acceptable "proficiency"?

Shot timer=truth. If you are too broke/cheap to buy one there is a phone app. For home dryfire go to Predator tactical.com. that site has a variety of targets including movers that allow you to set a par time to beat.

Sheister that 1 .45 round in the A zone may eventually be fatal. The booger eaters will kill and eat your kids while waiting to bleed out unless you park it in the center of their brain housing group.

My personal reality check done weekly is on the timer,from concealment w/ no warmup. Drew and fire 6 rounds into CSAT A zone in less than 3 seconds.

mike r

Mike's using the "walking dead defense" to his excessive force suit.

RWE, I would never miss an opportunity to pontificate.

Excessive force? What a concept.

mike r

Laugh away... I shot all my CHL except my very first one at full on speed. I even missed a couple of shots one year. But it was teaching me what I can expect, somewhat, if it ever came to it.

BTW I'm with you... you start slow and smooth.... and get it to where its an instict... and then you always speed up.... even in the lowly game of highpwer.... I ended up with a sitting rapid fire mag change that impressed not only the AMU Ft Benning, but also the MTU Quantico boys... at least a couple of times in training at nationals...ONLY because I worked it out, became smooth, figured out how I could shave time.... and did it.... I prefered as much time as I could on the front sight and making a good shot break....

Oh yeah, 45 for me please...though I'm open to 357 sig from some years of results that I"ve seen reports on

Edited to correct...

correct what?

See your first line and your comparison there on your reply. LOL. DOn't know why it hit me that way but it did.

Are you trolling or do you really not understand how bullet design has changed over the years?

Yes, the performance of both is improved with modern bullets. But this is not linear for both calibers.

Have you not ever looked at ballistic gel experiments between the 2 calibers with premium defensive ammo being used?

Here is an example:




To try and clear up the table:

A lowly Fed HS 9mm creates a wound area of 44.8 sq inches.

While a Fed HS .45 creates a wound area of 28.4 - 31.5 sq inches.

Now take into consideration the firearm capacity coupled with similar to sometimes better performance and it would be 9mm all day long.

I personally love shooting a 1911 variant and shoot it well. I carry a 9mm every day with capacity being one reason.

That's good stuff Jeff. Every time I hear someone say "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" I've started asking them to show me what they mean. 100% of the time so far guys have just demonstrated a slow draw. At some point they've gotta move on to the other half of the catch phrase.

The foremost thing that one needs to understand is the winner of a deadly confrontation is the one who is willing and ready to KILL! Once the last piece clicks, deadly intent is necessary. Regardless of what anyone tries to tell you, in the end it is all about that one nasty fact. When looking at a living,breathing humanoid, a lifetime of morality and behavior suddenly come front and center. Hesitation is death.

Yes, 9mm's suck when loaded with hardball ammo. I'm certain not one person the Fire would carry a 9mm, or even a .45 for that matter with Hardball unless required to do so by law.

The only people how usually choose hardball are the hoodrats who are too cheap and stupid to know any better.

I'd happily fight with ball ammo. I'm still gonna win.



Travis

Reloading for the 9 is extremely cheap if you cast your own bullets.

Smooth is fast and that's why we incorporate gross motor skills into all our training...







Travis

I find the whole caliber debate funny in the sense that there is still such a debate after all the data we have over the past 25 years. Any of the common cartridges will get the job done. If a .45 makes you more warm and fuzzy because you trust a bigger bullet over data, then so be it; you'll be fine.

If you trust data over all else, you'll be fine too. No cartridge/bullet combination is ever going to turn a bad shot into a good shot so obsessing over infinite minutia is a wast of time, you're better off spending that time at the range honing your skills to where the bullet/caliber isn't a factor.

Exactly, that's the sort of confidence you need.

Keeping in mind that you need to make your movements efficient by removing any unnecessary movement. Then get it all smooth, and eventually the fast will come. Always start by doing it right, then do it fast but still right. The fast comes with the learned motor skills with oodles of repetition.

As a good friend is fond of saying, "Pants go on, gun goes on, pants go off, gun is within reach." I follow that every day.

Shut your gross motor mouth.

I carry a 1911 for several reasons. First of all it is what I have. Secondly it fits me better than other options I have tried. Thirdly I shoot it better or as well as other options I have tried. About the only equal for me is a short barrel single action such as a Ruger Vaquero with a 4 5/8" barrel but the 1911 is more practical for me to to carry. Lastly I have confidence in the bigger bullet. Hollow point bullets have come a long way and I carry them for my defense rounds but there are boatloads of cases where hollow point bullets did not perform as expected. Stuff happens. With my 45 I am also confident my 230 gr cast truncated cone bullets will do the job.

Lots of people have been killed with a 22 short but I will stick with my 45 for now.

At work I carry a .380 because it is easier to conceal and there is a policy at work about no guns, and I don't plan on getting killed for following policy any time soon. I typically have that in my jacket pocket. When I go out to town or any other place I carry a 1911 on my hip with the .380 in my jacket pocket as well.

I really don't know that 'killing' power is what you need to concern yourself with. I think the fact that you can put lead in the air will deter about 99.9% of the schit that is gonna happen to you. The other 0.01% you just need to be a good shot. At the end of the day it isn't about killing the other guy or not it is about you walking away with your life.

I was bullshitting.

I think you are right and I would carry a pocket sized pistol along with my 1911 if I had one.

The operative word in the original question about 9mm or 45 was 'concealed carry'. The number of rounds will be determined by what can be 'concealed'. In my case that happens to be a Kahr MK9 9mm. I am 6'1 and around 290lbs. I live in southern Arizona and my normal dress is basically what I have on right now - a pair of jeans bermuda shorts and a knit pullover shirt. My Kahr Mk9 fits neatly in my right front pocket and is fully concealed. I have found no way to conceal anything much larger anywhere on my person that was in the least comfortable. I have many other handguns of larger caliber but have found with the way I normally dress there is no comfortable way to carry them.

As far as work policy goes, I am the president of the company, the vice president calls me Dad and he shoots a 1911. We will NOT have silly rules about not carrying at work.

Has anybody been watching the reports about the recent shooting @ FSU?

The whole library sheltered in place and "Tweeted" updates. Lots of them wrote farewell letters to their family.

#Vaginas. #Buyafugginggun.



Travis

If you think you might need 16 rounds of 9mm carry a 12 bore shotgun instead.

If you think you might need 10 rounds of .45 ACP, carry a 20 gauge shotgun.

This from another forum.

*************************
So saw some news on the FSU shooter. His name was released by a confidential informant. Now all of a sudden there is a right to privacy for some people who go off the rails and shoot things up. I'm pretty sure I understand why.

Scroll down for Myron May, the shooter: http://www.aacsf.org/recipients.htm

-Graduate of Texas Tech University School of Law 2009
-Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity, Inc.
-Rocky Mountain Region Chairman of the National Black Law Students Association
-Texas Tech Law Review
-Texas Tech Board of Regents Scholar Graduate of Florida State University Alum 2005





Apparently he was a good kid, the best ever. I swear I have never had a tinfoil hat on but this cat cannot be for real. Speech tonight on unconstitutional executive action will get buried behind this, Ferguson verdict, any anything else they can think of in the next few hours. It does appear that team Barry is going all in. The next two years are going to push this country to the edge.

My wife says all my skills are gross. I kind of like that.

mike r

RE carrying hardball vs whatever....

I am very different than lots of folks.

For that reason I carry a 45 because I like it, and can carry it. And in a few bullseye sports actually shot the 45 slightly better than the 9mm due to differing TYPES of recoil.

Me... 45. ammo.. Whatever happens to be in the mags that I grab on the way out the door. Might be HP. Might even be a few full of the old black talon. MIght be hardball. Might be my reloads with cast bullets.

Bottom line its going to be shot placement anyway. Though you can't count out a bullet that starts larger unexpanded than another.

With all that said..... I"d carry the wifes NAA 22 LR that she packs for snakes around the yard, I"d carry it long before carrying nothing.

I have shot some game with 45. With a few different bullets. I have not shot anything other than paper with the 9mm.
I was not impressed with reaction to being hit with a 45 by pigs or deer, though all died and in a reasonable amount of time, none were DRT.

I fail to see that a 9mm would impress me more. BUT I could be wrong.

Carry what you have. That you like. That you shoot WELL or better than WELL, and practice with. Have your mental skills in order better than your gun skills. All will work out.

Why is it that some people feel they have to justify their cartridge choice over, and over, and over again?

Is it a sense of superiority or insecurity brought on by some sense of inferiority?

The FBI is switching back to 9mm, and in the past 25 years the FBI has taken a very scientific, measured approach to their cartridge/load selection. They trust the data.

Most of the time I carry a .45 ACP, not because I feel it gives me any sort of edge, but because I love the gun I carry; it meets all of my personal needs.

But there are times I'm carrying a .38 Special or a 9mm. I personally (and this is just me) never feel any less armed because my cartridge has changed. But there are times where I feel less armed because the gun has changed. Like when I'm carrying a J or D frame .38 Special. Modern .38 Special +P is well proven, I know it will do the job. But when I go from full sized auto to tiny revolver my confidence goes down just because the small frame revolvers are so much more difficult to shoot well. I can hit a man sized target out to 100 yards with my J & D frames, but I realize that it takes FAR more concentration to do so with a snubbie than it takes with the auto.

What I'm getting at is, it's not the cartridge I worry about. It's really not so much the gun I worry about. What I worry about it that loose nut behind the trigger. That is, and always will be THE most significant factor.

I wouldn't either.

Trolling? why, because I asked what *I* thought? (and that's really all that matters). Not linear? do you have a reference to back that up? I really DGAF, but I do wonder why the USMC opted to return to the 45...

USMC shoots hardball, not modern hollow points.

duh. It still makes sense, even to the most elemental among us, that if one is admittedly superior to the other with one type of ammunition (ball), then it makes logical sense the difference would remain constant with HP ammo and not just enhance one.

Your thinking is linear, where this problem is better addressed with Calculus. Velocity effect expansion characteristics. The higher velocity 9mm gains more from modern bullets then the slower .45. Throw in the second variable, magazine size, and old fashioned linear reasoning may not be up to the task.

Well said.

You need a hand-filling K-Frame .38 Special.

Hey you're pretty good; that's right. (not being a smart arse, few actually pick up on that)

B U T - Even though the benefits of JHP are greater for the 9mm than the .45 ACP, the end diameter of .45 ACP still tends to be .65-.70 diameter, whereas your average 9mm JHP rarely makes it to .60 (my direct observations of doing actual ballistic testing with Knox & Kind ballistic gelatin, several pistols in multiple calibers and at least 6 different loads for each caliber). So even though the increase in size is greater with the 9mm, the end diameter is still larger with the .45 ACP.

Now to something relevant...Does it matter?
All evidence points to the fact that the end result of wound cavities and people shot on the street that the two rounds are essentially indistinguishable. With that larger frontal diameter, the .45 ACP tends to penetrate less, and the smaller/faster 9mm tends to penetrate more. Actual tissue destroyed tends to be close enough to the same that I've yet to see any convincing data to suggest what tiny difference actually matters on a live target.

It's just like those people who try to tell you a .30-06 is "so much better" than a .270...hogwash!!

If a guy only feels warm and fuzzy with a .45 ACP, who cares? Let him shoot the .45 ACP and be done with it.

If some guy says he'll only walk the streets with 15 or more rounds per magazine because he thinks he will take on the entire Sinaloa cartel, who cares (unless he misses with all 15 rounds), take your 9mm and be happy.

I could actually see the extra speed of the 9 coming into play...

But couldn't we get tehre with 165ish 45 bullets and still have a wider bullet to start with... and then it expands and gives and temporary wound cavity(which I"ve always doubted really exists with almost all handgun rounds)

Kevin, if we didn't justify our rounds, there would be nothign to talk about...

Now you've lost sectional density. There's no free lunch.

We we gun-geeks do tend to pick-nits, and split hairs about our equipment; that much is for sure.

If we were to extend you rifle analogy, it's similar to the Ballistic tip vs Partitions debate. One tends to do more damage on the front end, where the other tends to penetrate deeper and is more likely to leave two holes. Both do the job well, just with a different emphasis. Of course now we introduced the additional variables of shot angle and cover, but once you get past about 3 variables it can start to make your head hurt.

So to keep things simple, lets assume two packages of equal size that are shot equally well, on with 10 rounds of .45 (per magazine), and the other with 16 rounds of 9mm per magazine. The 9mm has a 60% capacity advantage. Does anyone here believe the .45 has a 60%+ per round lethality advantage over the 9mm, because that's what it would take for the total raw lethality of each package to be equal. This is before you acknowledge any advantage the 9 carries in reduced time spent reloading, total carrying capacity, or the 6 rounds the 9mm has left while the .45 is reloading...

It doesn't take a whole cartel to create a very unpleasant situation. There were only two bad guys in the '86 Miami shoot out, and both of the FBI agents who dies were killed while reloading.

So what does the statistical compilation of data say about those two calibers regarding efficacy?

Interesting stats:

.357 (both magnum and Sig) # of people shot - 105 # of hits - 179 % of hits that were fatal - 34% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.7 % of people who were not incapacitated - 9% One-shot-stop % - 44% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 61% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf

9mm Luger # of people shot - 456 # of hits - 1121 % of hits that were fatal - 24% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45 % of people who were not incapacitated - 13% One-shot-stop % - 34% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf

45 ACP # of people shot - 209 # of hits - 436 % of hits that were fatal - 29% Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08 % of people who were not incapacitated - 14% One-shot-stop % - 39% Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85% % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51% - See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866#sthash.MGTP4GYl.dpuf

A few questions for those in the know.

Do they make a concealable ten shot 10 gauge slug handgun?

Will the 460 Roland bounce off bad guys?

Is a 90mm better than a 45ACP?

Would a Derringer in 505 Gibbs be an adequate stopping round?

First, carry what you have, then carry what shoot the best, then remember to carry every day all day. If a plastic 380 works for you then it is good. The rest is just fluff.

I've seen those stat's before, very good stuff. When you look at the "% of people who were not incapacitated", on a per person hit basis, all three platforms get the job done, with some variation in how they accomplished it. AIR, the footnotes make comment about the guys with revolvers being more likely to place on in the chest, and let the BG bleed out, where the shooters with 9's put more rounds on target, even if the first round was likely fatal.

Of course, the real winner in that study were the rifles....

First rule of a gunfight......have a gun....

So would a 90mm rifle bet the best concealed carry?

Do they make it with a 16 round mag, a sig brace, and 11" barrel?

I disagree, plenty examples of mob violence occurring in recent years. Not outside the realm to possibly find yourself in the middle of a large [bleep] out these days, and there's no such thing as too many bullets there.

Two things never asked for by a person after being in a gunfight, a smaller gun and less bullets..........

Where can I get two, one just doesn't seem enough.

But a bunch of us don't live where mobs happen and if there were a mob it would be three people at the bmost. Mr Coleman live in such a place as do I. If I go into the big city I take more magazines.

Scott, there is something about the feel of a Kimber super carry inside the belt. If I lived where you do, it would be a real option.

But alas....I live amongst the mobs, so it's high capacity with extra mags for me....

Once flew with a fella that got his ass shot down one day and was ejected on impact. He awakened face down in the dirt with his right forearm under his chest, hand on the butt of his issue S&W .38 revolver. It was loaded with FMJ ball ammo.

He was getting poked in the backside by bayonets amidst hysterical Vietnamese laughter and made a choice based on the premise that he was not going to wind up as a POW. He rolled over onto his back and shot all three of them before they could react in meaningful fashion. He said all shots were center of mass in the torso, double action. Uncle Ho's heroes did not move after they hit the ground he said.

He and his gunner were extracted a few minutes later after a call to "higher" authorities on his EMRG radio.

Big thank to Lt. Powell, Doc Rocket, and Blue for some good common-sense (different common-sense than Obummer) advice despite all the 9mm vs. 45 caliber debate. Pat, I view you as one of the most balanced guys here and you story certainly resonated with me.

Oh, 2L2Q, you meant 5 push-up not 50, right??

Lets not let common sense get in the way of a good argument.

If I lived or frequented bad places I might well rethink my choices.

There might be a better man stopper out there for concealed carry. What about a raging hornet re barrelled and bored out to 270 Ren. A 110 V-Max at 1800 + fps would be nothing to sneeze at when fired from ten feet away into the chest of a bad guy.

Ah, another timeless debate that shall rage forever.

I carry .380, 9 mm, .40 and .45. To be perfectly honest, it all depends on the weather and the clothing I have to wear, which can range from shorts and a T-shirt to a business suit. My first preference is a .45, but I most often carry a 9. That has more to do with how concealable that particular pistol is compared to others in the rotation. As the saying goes, dress around the gun...

Yep, a 455, I do have a little 38 also.

You just opened a new can of worms. What is the best dress for concealed carry? Jeans, cowboy boots and snap shirt over a tuckable holster? Shorts, tank top, and tennis shoes, with a belly band holster? Or worst of all, a business suit with shirt and tie, wingtips and a shoulder holster ?

Thanks. The least a man can do is share his mistakes so somebody else won't make them.

I spent 2/3 of my life in New Orleans, including during the crack wars and during years with the highest murder rate in the country for many years running. I have never seen a mob hold ranks and close on the shooter once the gunfire started. The mob running away in 360 directions like points on a compass was usually more dangerous than the actual gunfire, although a couple or three unlucky ones may get hit. A two shot derringer could turn any mob that I have actually witnessed reacting to shots actually being fired. Even my friends and family who stupidly bugged in during Katrina never had to fire a shot to make people go away. Now, the guy on crack who wants to die and comes at you with a knife is going to need a CNS shutdown, so the capacity to do that plus movement, etc., are important. I have never even heard of multiples of those at the same time with the same death threat like the mythical zombie apocalypse. Unless you made the Hell�s Angels or some drug cartel mad at you, the chances of any CCW person dealing with multiple people who want to stay and fight after the CCW guys starts shooting is so minute as to not even waste brain cells over.

All things being equal, I can see going with the capacity. But, almost everything in life is a trade off of one kind or another, so, I would go with the preferred platform, and capacity is the extra gravy.

Knee length wool winter coat. The 16 shot 90mm fits under it nicely.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/pmr-30/pistol/

Cops picked 15 shell casing from the neighbors lawn a while back. On another morning I counted over 30 evidence markers, mostly shell casing in a near by cul-de-sac.

I don't know the full details of either, but neither was a "two shot" affair, and I would of certainly wanted more then a derringer if one the receiving end of that wrath.

Sad fact is that most people refuse to learn from mistakes made by others.

I (for one) appreciate you telling us that. It helps me understand "where you come from". I don't live there, but I did...for thirty years. But, I've worked "there" for 32 so it helps me relate.

And please know it's deeply appreciated. Most of us can do a yoeman's job of taking care of ourselves, but that doesn't mean there isn't plenty room to learn!

I like it!

I carry mine in my thong. They can't tell the difference.

Me too.

You wouldn't happen to live in Aurora, would you?

Oh no!!! What have I started!

But thinking about carry, not thongs but real carry, what would be wrong with a derringer in 270 Ren. For those who don't know what it is look it up.

Thanks for clarifying that your preferred carry gun is a micro derringer. ;-)

Oh, good Lord. Poobah's back with his thong. Hide the wimmins and chilluns...

LT, thanks for understanding. It was never my intention to live "there". 15 years ago myself and my then girlfriend, now wife, built a nice new house on the outskirts of the Metro area in a diverse, but working class neighborhood. It was all new construction, so that kept out the riff raff. After the economy and housing market crashed, many of my regular Joe working class neighbors lost their homes. They were bought up by investors who then rented them out section 8. Since then there's been some "interesting occurrences" in our area, more interesting then I like.

Needless to say we are house shopping, my wife can't wait until we are able to move to a less exciting neighborhood. We are looking real hard at southern Weld County.

If you see him soon, please let him know he did that all wrong.



Travis

I wish you the best. Until then be safe and carry LOTS of extra mags.

How about a six shot revolver?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09XNTj02Ep8

I knew someone would pull out an "incapacitation" chart. If you believe all that crap is actually scientific, I suggest you review your high school books on scientific method.

You'll make it, and rather than hijack the thread, I'll just say that the feelings you have displayed about urban life and LE are justified.

For those who think you have to have 15 rounds minimum. Can you point to ONE incident where a single person, civilian, not LE or military, engaged and hit more than 10 people, and survived the encounter? How about one civilian who actually used two 15 mags in a gunfight in self defense?

The only thing charts like this really prove is something we all already know: handguns are inherently inferior to rifles and shotguns in putting bad guys down.

The best you can do is go with a proven load in a proven gun and practice, practice, practice.

What you described does not sound like the standard impromptu mob scenario, but more like a drive by or other targeted situation. You think those were some kind of random occurrences? In any event, the amount of shell casings one or more bad guys leaves on the ground is totally irrelevant to the amount of rounds one needs to carry or to return fire to solve the problem. It's not a volume for volume deal.

By the way, I would move if I were you rather than carrying a gun that holds more ammo. I got tired of hearing gunfire from my house.

Yep, sounds like drive-by. Saw enough of those in L.A. Eternally glad I got the hell out.

Hey, antelope sniper, I saw a later post where you said you were trying to move, so I apologize for missing that. BTW, of all the houses I saw riddled with gunfire, I don't recall anyone actually being hit.

Scott F - It's not a new can of worms all the other has been mostly BS. I thought the question was about concealed carry and capacity of firearm. The biggest question facing all of us is the concealed part. I don't care how well it stops,how many bullets of whatever type it holds it still must be concealed - Period. I have always been of the impression if you couldn't conceal it you couldn't carry it. I don't know about most people but I have never seen a holster that would painlessly hold a pistol under a knit pullover tee shirt. I personally can't stand the pain of an inside waistband type holster with the gun poking me and that's about the only type carry that allows this type of dress. I live in Southern Arizona and most time the sun dictates the dress. Only in the coldest of winter do I get the luxury of wearing a jacket for concealment and then there is really no problem with concealment. The question of which is better 45acp or 9mm and capacity will rage forever and there is really only a preference not an answer.How many years have people been debating which is better chocolate or vanilla ice cream. Does any one out there have the answer? Or to make it easier which is better a ribeye or a tbone or Coca-cola or Pepsi. I once heard someone say as long as you have 2 people you will probably always have 3 answers. I believe it.

I know, for a fact, that you can shoot one guy in the forehead with a .40 S&W hardball and he will shake it off and another will go DRT by a .25ACP in the shoulder. There are no guarantees.

We've had several incidents here where someone was actually hit. The first incident I mentioned was a "run and gun" that involved at least 3 parties on foot, with at least one party hit.

Another time there was a big party brewing across the street from us. I took on look at the party goers and told the wife and kids to get in the vehicle, we were leaving, and headed to grandma's. When we returned, at about 4 a.m., there were cop cars everywhere. There was a shooting, one person hit with a .40 cal slug, but he lived. Another hoodrat saved by Hardball.

That's easy.

Chocolate. (Rocky Road, preferably.)
Ribeye.
Coca Cola.


That settles it.


L.W.

maybe this would be better.

Is that a real gun?(In my best Deflave voice.)

That reminds me of a subdivision in New Orleans that had a lot of streets named after historic locales. The subdivision was named "Bunker Hill," but I don't think the original developers envisioned exactly how appropriate the name would be a couple of decades later. I am sorry you are stuck there and hope you get out. Send me a PM if you think you will be in my area anytime.

For any civilian who uses front pocket carry,
how are your pockets holding up?
Mine all have holes from the end of the barrel.
As far as the 9mm vs 45 controversy,
this has been going on a long time.
Imo the reason government agencies liked 9mm was that it was easier to train females. Has anyone ever commented after a gun fight that they wish they had a smaller caliber pistol?
If you can't handle a 45 then carry something you can handle but don't try to tell me that your 9mm is superior to a 45 acp.
Reminds me of guys saying the 350cc Honda was superior to a Harley Davidson.

Thanks Cheyenne. I appreciate it. I make it up to your area from time to time. I'll give you a shout next time up your direction.

I read this on a tablet and decided it warranted a serious reply and a computer start up. Note: serious replys are rare for me.

I agree with you on every point. I live where I can wear a long sleeved shirt and at least a tank top 90% of the year. I don't even own a short sleeved shirt and have one pair of shorts that I have not worn in at least seven years. I carry a full sized 1911 IWB with a Milt Sparks VM-II all the time. Having visited AZ in the summer many times I know this is not an option for you guys.

It is back to carry what you have, what you can shoot and what works for you. If I lived in your part of the world I don't know exactly what or how I would carry. I think it would take a lot of experimenting on my part but something like pocket carry would not be off my list.

Oh, one more thing. It is vanilla, neither but rather filet mignon, and I would rather have water than a soft drink.

I've been doing that for decades with no discomfort, even with all-steel, service sized, handguns such as K-Frame revolvers and full sized 1911s. Once you're properly set up with belt and holster, it's only a matter of getting used to it. After that, not only is there no discomfort, but you feel funny if you're not carrying a full sized, full weight, gun on your belt.

PS Concealment and undetectability are not the same. You're required to conceal, but you're not required to be detection proof, i.e., unintentional "printing" isn't an issue in Florida.

Excellent, thank you. Put a J-frame in a Robert Mika pocket holster , and you're good to go.








Any new pair of pants will have an outline from my cell phone within 6 weeks, but my carry pocket looks new, even years later.

FC

And just as sure, I'd knew you'd pipe up to refute it using the "oh that's not scientific bullshit". Bottom line is the charts are illustrative of events that took place out in the real world and not in a controlled environment full of geeks and pocket protectors.

I thought so too, but any day of the week I'd rather be lucky than good. Or dead.

I have a S&W 9 mm, a 45 1911. I carry a model 19, cause I reload and brass is hard to find when you are in a hurry or stressed. If I missed 6 times, the scoundrel would likely be long gone.
If I was hunting I'd be carrying a 44 also in revolver.

If I had only those first two that I mentioned, the choice would be the 1911. I don't want to make what I was shooting at mad, I prefer dead. I don't have much faith in the 9 mm.

BTW, the scounderals I would be shooting at would be 4 legged.

yeah, I can't believe he went D.A. on those guys.

And all center mass.

What a lucky SOB.

Kevinthose have already been posted. For one, remember the homeowner in Fla who emptied a mag from an m16 and changed magazines and continued the fight

The jewelry store ownet who ised multiple firearms in the same fight?

What I find interesting is the accuracy of the .357 and 45 users, 81% and 85% for head and torso hits. The 9mm users only have 74% accuracy rate. This would lead me to believe that while the 9mm is more popular the people using it are not as well trained. The percentage of failures is very similar between the 9 and 45, 13% vs 14%. I don't understand the difference between one-shot stop and actually incapacitated by one shot, but the 9mm and 45 seem fairly close and the .357 does pull ahead. I can not get to the web site here at work, I will look at it at home. Overall to me it doesn't look like there is that much difference between the rounds.

That's 'cuz 9mm's are for girls.

Yeah that must be it.

Yeah. What Pat said.

ROR!!

I would have said the same thing but I wasn't as brave as you are.

I've said before and will say again.. sometimes its not the amount of recoil thats harder to make work for you... its the type... or type of gun or accuracy of overall gun and ammo combo.

Pat... I hear you on the 40 vs 25. But given 100 circumstances of same exact shot... which would you guess would come out on top....

I can add this... on deer, a 9mm 100 grain XTP out of a 32-20 plays hell with all the deer/pigs I"ve shot with it so far... none made it over about 40ish yards...

Yet not one serious law enforcement agency IN THE ENTIRE WORLD subscribes to the statistical approach; ever wonder why that is? I'll tell you, it's because it's not freaking science.

What constitutes inclusion is arbitrary, and the databases are HIGHLY suspect. There's only one guy who knows if the database of shooting is real or not, and that's the guy who wrote it. If that database of incidents is not open for fully peer review, it's absolutely meaningless.

So what you're reading is one guy's opinion from a database that may or may not really exist...yeah, that's scientific.

I guess you're just smarter than every LE agency in the world, that's why you believe in such "statistics"

"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics" - Benjamin Disraeli

And Travis.

Sounds like I have the right gun

Hardball usually feeds reliably.
You can't count on hollow point to feed
in all situations.

Thats not true. But it can be in factory guns and without ammo testing...

I loaded a LOT of HP bullets in years gone by for shooting in my 45. More than a buttload of 185 jhps in my youth... never had a failure to feed with them.

I had polished the ramp a hair though....

I've also seen jams with hardball....

Must be why the likes of the FBI, SS and most PDs in the US don't use the 9MM?

[quote=rost495]Thats not true. But it can be in factory guns and without ammo testing...

I loaded a LOT of HP bullets in years gone by for shooting in my 45. More than a buttload of 185 jhps in my youth... never had a failure to feed with them.

I had polished the ramp a hair though...(.quote)




I remember going to a bowling pin match about 30 years ago with a Colt Series 70 45 acp.

I had polished the feed ramp and did what we called a duty tune.
After the match was over a gentleman offered to buy my pistol.
when he was asked why he wanted it he responded
"Yours was the only one who didn't jam."

Glock 26 with a G19 mag as a spare.