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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,954 |
My friend, there is no proof either way. It is a faith issue, either yo have it or you don't. Each person has to decide for themselves.
My wife had a difficult pregnancy and when the child, a girl was born the hospital told my wife to take her home and enjoy her as she would live a couple of weeks at the most. Her lungs were not developed, she had a large hole in her heart that was never going to close and she tested positive for Down syndrome. My wife called her church and asked for prayers then she called her mom and dad and asked then to do the same with their church.
When the little girl was three she was taken to Vancouver BC Children's Hospital and retested and again the test was positive.
When she was thirteen she went back for the same testing and the tests were negative. The results and tissue samples are still there. Later tests found her heart to be normal.
She had to work hard in school, harder than most for her As and Bs but she went on to collage.
Today at 40 she is a district manager for the company she works for.
I hugged her last night before we left to return to the farm for a week. I believe. I see more proof than I ever need whenever I hug her of talk to her.
Show me another child who has ever been healed of Down syndrome. Scott, I have yet to see a peer reviewed article discussing the spontaneous remission of Down syndrome, and I've look for them on more then one occasion. Since your basis for belief involves you daughter, I have no further philosophical comment on the story, except to say I'm very happy for your family and your daughters success.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Dec 2000
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
An outstanding irony here is that
(a) logic can neither discredit God, define God, prove God, nor disprove God
but
(b) accepting God and His word (completely without understanding) will lift you into the highest realms of logic.
(No, I won't argue the point! Got better things to do than try to turn boulders into mush. It's a fact as real and true and obvious and unarguable as the Pacific Ocean.) Romans 1:19-21 ... Men may choose not to believe and even say that God had not "proven" Himself to them, but they will be found without excuse. � As Paul wrote to the saints in the ekklesia in Rome (Romans 1:19-21, HCSB version) � "since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse. For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened."
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,180 |
ironbender, These God, evolution, creation, threads solve nothing and change no minds on the subject. If you read all these threads you would realize your post is in error. My mind has been changed by others. In what specific way(s) has your mind been changed? I'm curious as to what your pre-change vs. post-change beliefs are/were.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,478 |
These God, evolution, creation, threads solve nothing and change no minds on the subject. What do the political threads solve...? And who's minds are changed by the political threads...? It's just another topic to kick around and discuss with the fellas here.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,853 |
Originally Posted By: Ringman
ironbender,
Quote:
These God, evolution, creation, threads solve nothing and change no minds on the subject.
If you read all these threads you would realize your post is in error. My mind has been changed by others.
In what specific way(s) has your mind been changed?
I'm curious as to what your pre-change vs. post-change beliefs are/were.
I don't remember. Someone's new to me ideas become my ideas and are the correct position or I wouldn't embrace them. We are all the same in that regard. "I'm right and those who don't agree with me are wrong," is everyone's belief.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
Actually that question was intended for Steelhead and 4ager.
I'm looking forward to their answer and will forward it to God. I'd tell folks to pay attention to the Old Testament, I'd not be a secret and I'd laugh every time someone said 'You only need to accept Christ as your savior to get into Heaven' I'd also go back in time and wipe out anything revolving around the design and production of bras.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860 |
I'd tell folks to pay attention to the Old Testament, I'd not be a secret and I'd laugh every time someone said 'You only need to accept Christ as your savior to get into Heaven' [/quote] Nothing to see but arrogant pride here.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
Almost forgot, I'd smite you.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860 |
Almost forgot, I'd smite you. You'd get your azz beat. I'd do it for all the lower-enlisteds you abused for a generation.
Last edited by 4321; 12/16/14.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301 |
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Posts: 30,954
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,954 |
Originally Posted By: Ringman
ironbender,
Quote:
These God, evolution, creation, threads solve nothing and change no minds on the subject.
If you read all these threads you would realize your post is in error. My mind has been changed by others.
In what specific way(s) has your mind been changed?
I'm curious as to what your pre-change vs. post-change beliefs are/were.
I don't remember. Someone's new to me ideas become my ideas and are the correct position or I wouldn't embrace them. We are all the same in that regard. "I'm right and those who don't agree with me are wrong," is everyone's belief. I think the question is bigger then "does it change anyone's mind". I for one, have learned A LOT from these debates. Ringman is a great representative of the Literal Creationist and he's introduced me to many idea's from his school of thought with which I was not familiar. CCCC accuses me of not learning any new tricks, but every time we has one of these thread, and I have to time to fully engage, someone always takes me down some new rabbit hole I haven't explored. The Best part of these threads, is the way they can build relationships. There is something about an honest, spirited, respectful debate that builds respect and creates friendships. I may never change the mind of a single participate, but I will still enjoy the debate, what I learn from them, and my fellow debaters.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 39,301 |
I don't mind respectful debates either but then I know I am right.  And I agree, you are one of the best at respectful debate and I have developed a lot of respect for you because of it.
The first time I shot myself in the head...
Meniere's Sucks Big Time!!!
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860 |
Originally Posted By: Ringman
ironbender,
Quote:
These God, evolution, creation, threads solve nothing and change no minds on the subject.
If you read all these threads you would realize your post is in error. My mind has been changed by others.
In what specific way(s) has your mind been changed?
I'm curious as to what your pre-change vs. post-change beliefs are/were.
I don't remember. Someone's new to me ideas become my ideas and are the correct position or I wouldn't embrace them. We are all the same in that regard. "I'm right and those who don't agree with me are wrong," is everyone's belief. I think the question is bigger then "does it change anyone's mind". I for one, have learned A LOT from these debates. Ringman is a great representative of the Literal Creationist and he's introduced me to many idea's from his school of thought with which I was not familiar. CCCC accuses me of not learning any new tricks, but every time we has one of these thread, and I have to time to fully engage, someone always takes me down some new rabbit hole I haven't explored. The Best part of these threads, is the way they can build relationships. There is something about an honest, spirited, respectful debate that builds respect and creates friendships. I may never change the mind of a single participate, but I will still enjoy the debate, what I learn from them, and my fellow debaters. Maybe there's hope for you yet:)
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Joined: Sep 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 15,521 |
I think the question is bigger then "does it change anyone's mind".
I for one, have learned A LOT from these debates. Ringman is a great representative of the Literal Creationist and he's introduced me to many idea's from his school of thought with which I was not familiar. CCCC accuses me of not learning any new tricks, but every time we has one of these thread, and I have to time to fully engage, someone always takes me down some new rabbit hole I haven't explored.
The Best part of these threads, is the way they can build relationships. There is something about an honest, spirited, respectful debate that builds respect and creates friendships. I may never change the mind of a single participate, but I will still enjoy the debate, what I learn from them, and my fellow debaters. Not a big deal, but you misread - or misquoted - again. I said that it is me that has not learned any new tricks. Oh well - old stuff. Merry Christmas, all. PDW
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