|
|
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 303
Campfire Member
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 303 |
Being this question is posed in the long range forum, shouldn't the arguments be resigned to external and terminal ballistics only?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,911 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,911 Likes: 3 |
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344
Campfire Tracker
|
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344 |
For hunting killing fighting in 06 or below; (don't like the recoil much above that and inefficiency of the case)
it almost seems to me to be a calculus problem/ subjective judgment call when a man tries to weigh all the compromises against each other.
1) High B/C killin bullet
2) Faster time of flight, (so wind can't mess with it as much)
3) Available components.
4) Affordable bullets, (so a fellow can practice)
5) Flatter trajectory (as far as your range finder will go)
6) Lastly... barrel life/throat erosion.
And... there was a thread a long time ago I cannot remember but it was asserted that the manufacturing process of bullets for some odd reason, the 30 cals come out concentricly balanced more oftener than the 7mm's and below. (but who cares if the 6.5's shave off margin of error in beating the wind!)
Arg
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,198 Likes: 9
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,198 Likes: 9 |
True, there are lots of variables, but the toughest one is wind so whatever you can do to minimize its effects should be at the top of the list. BC matters most, more than TOF. Velocity minimizes the effects of errors in ranging and keeps the round supersonic farther out, but these are easier to manage than wind.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,291
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,291 |
True, there are lots of variables, but the toughest one is wind so whatever you can do to minimize its effects should be at the top of the list. BC matters most, more than TOF. Velocity minimizes the effects of errors in ranging and keeps the round supersonic farther out, but these are easier to manage than wind. What? X-VERMINATOR
Sooner or later our heritage of hunting is going to be a rich mans sport and the words "Outfitter" and "Hunt Industry" will be synonymous with cancer and A.I.D.S. among blue collar hunters like me and my family! (A.L. Williams - 2010)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,198 Likes: 9
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,198 Likes: 9 |
Look at the OP's post right above mine. Then read my response to his post. I guess I should've said there's a big gap between what he has at the top of his list (bc) and what he has second, as far as minimizing the effect of wind, since he mentioned TOF as helping buck the wind.
Last edited by smokepole; 12/22/14.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,291
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,291 |
What you should have said was.... velocity and B.C. are what is most important and left it at that...
X-VERMINATOR
Sooner or later our heritage of hunting is going to be a rich mans sport and the words "Outfitter" and "Hunt Industry" will be synonymous with cancer and A.I.D.S. among blue collar hunters like me and my family! (A.L. Williams - 2010)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,198 Likes: 9
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,198 Likes: 9 |
Nope. As far as bucking wind, BC comes first by a good margin.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 10,926 Likes: 71
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 10,926 Likes: 71 |
Nope. As far as bucking wind, BC comes first by a good margin. Kinda depends on the situation. I know some guys who shoot with this theory: A lower BC bullet fired from the same chambering as a higher BC bullet may have exactly the same or less wind drift because of Time of Flight For example, the 123 Scenar and the 139 Scenar fired from the 6.5 Creedmoor. The 123 can be fired at a higher velocity and has less TOF. A buddy and I shoot the Creed. He was shooting the light bullet and I, the heavy. His data actually showed less drift out to a certain distance. We shot side by side at an 885 yard plate with the exact same wind hold, one after the other to replicate as close as possible the exact same wind conditions. The drift was identical. At longer ranges, Higher BC takes over. Take another example with different chamberings. The .264 WM firing a 123 at hyper-velocity vr. a Creedmoor firing the 139. The .264 will have much less drift because of TOF. There are other "advantages" to shooting the light offerings as well; less drop with the added velocity. This is possibly a good thing to still make hits when mis-ranging a target by a few yards. Having said all of that, I still choose High BC over lower BC/higher speed in the same chambering. I think that the higher BC bullet is more resistant to quick changes in wind. I've done well with that theory. The best of both worlds his being able to shoot the highest BC bullet a warp speed; .264 WM, 26 Nosler, 7 RUM, etc...
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,198 Likes: 9
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,198 Likes: 9 |
I think that the higher BC bullet is more resistant to quick changes in wind. Thanks rc, this is along the lines of what I was getting at. Besides quick changes, a higher BC minimizes the effects of errors in judging the wind, which seem to be more common than errors in estimating range. To each his own, but I'll go with a higher BC bullet over more speed (and the accompanying recoil) given the choice, especially when you go up to fast magnums. Recoil was one of the OP's criteria. Coincidentally it's one of mine too, I just don't enjoy extended range sessions with magnums as much as with say, a 260. And the 123 scenar is kind of an anomaly anyway--probably the best combination of a relatively high BC in a light, fast bullet that I know of. When you compare it to the heavier scenars, there's not a huge difference in BC so of course the higher velocity makes more of a difference between those two particular bullets.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344
Campfire Tracker
|
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344 |
There is a "sweet spot" somewhere out there! LOL
All of this is helpful; thanks
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,198 Likes: 9
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,198 Likes: 9 |
Getting opinions from guys like rc and MontanaMarine is always a good thing.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,093 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,093 Likes: 5 |
One thing about warp speed is that at closer distances all that speed can be hard on match-type bullets.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 10,926 Likes: 71
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 10,926 Likes: 71 |
One thing about warp speed is that at closer distances all that speed can be hard on match-type bullets. ...and what they hit
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344
Campfire Tracker
|
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344 |
One thing about warp speed is that at closer distances all that speed can be hard on match-type bullets. 1)Highest B/C 2)In a (kinda-sorta) lighter bullet, (which slightly mitigates #1)but reduces TOF 3) Premium/bonded or partition. So obviously it has to be a bullet that is 6.5, 7mm or maybe 30 What is the perfect "sweet-spot" bullet? For killin invading chicoms and invading whitetails at the longest possible 06 case scenario??? (155/308/scenars?)
Last edited by Robert_White; 12/23/14.
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 10,926 Likes: 71
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 10,926 Likes: 71 |
They all work.
The bottom line is that a Good Shooter will make first round hits regardless of his rifle
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344
Campfire Tracker
|
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344 |
Nope. As far as bucking wind, BC comes first by a good margin. Kinda depends on the situation. I know some guys who shoot with this theory: A lower BC bullet fired from the same chambering as a higher BC bullet may have exactly the same or less wind drift because of Time of Flight For example, the 123 Scenar and the 139 Scenar fired from the 6.5 Creedmoor. The 123 can be fired at a higher velocity and has less TOF. A buddy and I shoot the Creed. He was shooting the light bullet and I, the heavy. His data actually showed less drift out to a certain distance. We shot side by side at an 885 yard plate with the exact same wind hold, one after the other to replicate as close as possible the exact same wind conditions. The drift was identical. At longer ranges, Higher BC takes over. Take another example with different chamberings. The .264 WM firing a 123 at hyper-velocity vr. a Creedmoor firing the 139. The .264 will have much less drift because of TOF. There are other "advantages" to shooting the light offerings as well; less drop with the added velocity. This is possibly a good thing to still make hits when mis-ranging a target by a few yards. Having said all of that, I still choose High BC over lower BC/higher speed in the same chambering. I think that the higher BC bullet is more resistant to quick changes in wind. I've done well with that theory. The best of both worlds his being able to shoot the highest BC bullet a warp speed; .264 WM, 26 Nosler, 7 RUM, etc... I re-read this and is chewing on it. You don't try to balance the TOF/B/C you just go highest B/C... got it. I missed the point earlier.
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,093 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,093 Likes: 5 |
This thread is full of good discussion.
It motivated me to go over to Hornady ballistic calculator and run some numbers out of curiosity and to quantify some casual comparisons.
I ran calcs at 4000' asl, 59F.
I ran some calcs based on approximate velocities based on 24-26" barrels.
- 6.5-06/140gr Berger (BC .618) 2950 fps
- 280 180 Berger (BC .674) 2800 fps
- 30-06 230 Berger (BC .743) 2650 fps
I believe these starting points are fairly objective , but there may be room for any to be pushed a bit faster.
Here's your 600 yard drop/drift/velocity/energy (inches rounded to nearest inch.)
140 Ber 68"/17"/2211 fps/1520 ft-lbs
180 Ber 75"/16"/2138 fps/1829 ft-lbs
230 Ber 83"/16"/2066 fps/2180 ft-lbs
1000 yards,
140 Ber 248"/52"/1786 fps/ 991 ft-lbs
180 Ber 269"/50"/1755 fps/1231 ft-lbs
230 Ber 293"/48"/1724 fps/1517 ft-lbs
No surprises really. They are all pretty good. As I mentioned in my earlier posting, it might just come down to a personal preference depending on how you weigh drop, retained energy, recoil and barrel life.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344
Campfire Tracker
|
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344 |
They all work.
The bottom line is that a Good Shooter will make first round hits regardless of his rifle LOL,,, I know I know... my redneck hillbilly pards scold me all the time, just larn what I got already. But I got the addiction! I am scratching my head seriously abut a 25-06AI with the heavier bullets. When are they gonna run out of killing steam?
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344
Campfire Tracker
|
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,344 |
This thread is full of good discussion.
It motivated me to go over to Hornady ballistic calculator and run some numbers out of curiosity and to quantify some casual comparisons.
I ran calcs at 4000' asl, 59F.
I ran some calcs based on approximate velocities based on 24-26" barrels.
- 6.5-06/140gr Berger (BC .618) 2950 fps
- 280 180 Berger (BC .674) 2800 fps
- 30-06 230 Berger (BC .743) 2650 fps
I believe these starting points are fairly objective , but there may be room for any to be pushed a bit faster.
Here's your 600 yard drop/drift/velocity/energy (inches rounded to nearest inch.)
140 Ber 68"/17"/2211 fps/1520 ft-lbs
180 Ber 75"/16"/2138 fps/1829 ft-lbs
230 Ber 83"/16"/2066 fps/2180 ft-lbs
1000 yards,
140 Ber 248"/52"/1786 fps/ 991 ft-lbs
180 Ber 269"/50"/1755 fps/1231 ft-lbs
230 Ber 293"/48"/1724 fps/1517 ft-lbs
No surprises really. They are all pretty good. As I mentioned in my earlier posting, it might just come down to a personal preference depending on how you weigh drop, retained energy, recoil and barrel life. MM Thanks... that is the whole story right there pretty much. I am not familiar with M/V's on a good load for a .25, do you have a good idea of one you can crank into your program for comparison?
Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven.
|
|
|
|
|
540 members (10Glocks, 160user, 01Foreman400, 06hunter59, 1936M71, 10gaugemag, 73 invisible),
2,455
guests, and
1,139
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,193,699
Posts18,513,732
Members74,010
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
