As far as I know and as far as my research has taken me it has to be the 280AI with the Sierra SMK 175grain.

Am I missing something? The 208amax in the 06 is very interesting. I never loaded the 30cal SMK 240 grain in an O6 yet.

For 30-06 based cartridges and below what is the king of the hill for actuall killing critters at the longest distance?

Is there a 6.5 bullet that I am not aware of that beats the Sierra SMK 7mm 175grain???

The .284 162 Amax matches or exceeds its BC and can be pushed faster. The 140 Berger vld out of a 6.5-06 AI is good too.

In my opinion the top long range contenders would be,

6.5-06 AI, 140 gr Berger
280 AI, 180 gr Berger
30-06 AI, 215 gr Berger.

Depending on how you want to weigh drift, energy, and mass.

Thanks... You just saved me a lot of reading! LOL.

I have only focused on Sierra, Nosler and Hornady bullets in my experiments so far. Will have to take a close look at the Berger stuff. Thanks again.

I like these practical questions. Thanks to the OP.

If you want practical, Just build a 284 Win or 6.5-284 and be done with it. Easy choice over AI-ing the 06 hull IMO......

For practicality one could simply go plain vanilla 30-06, 280, or 6.5-06. Or the AI'd version.

Finding brass is never an issue, if you have a resizing die. You can pretty much always find 30-06 or 270 brass, or ammo to cannibalize the brass.

That is a big part of my thinking these days.

Sierra B/C's
http://www.sierrabullets.com/resources/ballistic-coefficients/

The 308/210grainSMK's are 610B/C
The 308/240grainSMK's are 711B/C

Once upon a time I flung some 240's our of a RUM, but I never really did all that I wanted to do before trading.

The 240's I noticed do cost about twice the price as other offerings, or at least they did at the local gun store. Has anyone out there loaded 240's in an 30-06?

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/bc/

Sierra is offering some new TMK bullets????

There will be six (6) new TMK bullets, two in .224 caliber, and four in .308 caliber. The six new tipped bullet types should be available in �early 2015″. Sorry, Sierra will not be offering 6mm, 6.5mm, or 7mm TMKs for the time being, although Sierra will introduce more TMK varieties in the future. Currently, Sierra is focusing on �the most popular calibers�. Notably, the new 22-Cal 77gr TMK has a 0.420 BC � identical to the BC of Sierra�s 80gr non-tipped HPBT MatchKing. So, you get the BC of a heavier bullet in a lighter projectile that can be pushed faster. That�s big news for .223 Rem and 22-250 shooters.



Bullet Name (Click for ballistic coefficients)

Brand

Item

BC (G1)





.224 dia. 69 gr. Tipped MatchKing (TMK)

Tipped MatchKing

7169

.375 @ 2700+ fps





.224 dia. 77 gr. Tipped MatchKing (TMK)

Tipped MatchKing

7177

.420 @ 2400+ fps





.308 dia. 168 gr. Tipped MatchKing (TMK)

Tipped MatchKing

7768

.535 @ 2050+ fps





.308 dia. 175 gr. Tipped MatchKing (TMK)

Tipped MatchKing

7775

.545 @ 2400+ fps





.308 dia. 155 gr. Tipped MatchKing (TMK)

Tipped MatchKing

7755

.519 @ 1900+ fps





.308 dia. 125 gr. Tipped MatchKing (TMK)

Tipped MatchKing

7725

.343 @ 2580+ fps


New Bullet Shapes Along with Plastic Tips

I love my 284. Great cartridge.

The more that I see peeps struggling with their cartridge choices, the more I like my 300 win mag.

I can download it or upload it for vermin from 1800-3600 fps with 110gr speer spire points, to heaviest loads at 300-400 fps over the '06.

It is arguably the most versatile cartridge on terra firma.

When talking long range nothing "30" interests me in the slightest.

Nor does the 6.5-06 or 6.5-06AI when the 6.5-284 exists.

Same for the 280AI. Gimme a 284 Win, or 7mm RM......

I have done very well with the 300 SAUM.
Nisika Model G RBLP.
Tooley Tracker from DB Supply
Obymeyer AMU+ 1-11 twisted.
Scope in the pick is a 5-25x56 PMII I swapped out to a 12-42x56 NSX.
Seekens rings.
Vias Brake.
60.4 Ramshot Hunter under a 210g Berger LRBT Tula mag primer,Nosler case.
Cases have been reloaded up to 20 times and still working fine.
Figure 2800 FPS.
The groups are stunning.

dave

I bought a box of 50 of the 240 SMKs several years ago just to see what was possible in the 30-06. I loaded them, without moly, over RL22. I was able to get just over 2600 fps from a 26" barrel. They shot very well at 100 yards, and past 1000.

Thanks MM

I'm gonna plug that MV into my exbal and ponder the curves.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek095.html

I scrounged up this very interesting article on the 284. Brass price and avail???

Even on a short action, a 284 Win will get you a minimum of 200 fps more, with considerably less powder and recoil.

Comparing .308s to 7mms and 6.5s is a lost cause, in every regard. This coming from a guy who owns 2 308s, 2 30-06s, and a 300 Win Mag.

Bulding upon the 284 Win case, seating long and increasing powder capacity thusly, is the only way to go here, if maximum peformance is the true goal.

Skip the 30s, and anything based on the 30-06 case.....

What velocities do you get with 140's in the 6.5-284?

The 280 AI and 168 ABLR's at 2960 have been getting it done for me !

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/25...rass-284-winchester?cm_vc=ProductFinding

284win brass; 65cents per and unavailable, "seasonal run"

What is the magic on this 284? I have always skipped over all the articles on it, just was not on my radar screen. It has 2 grains less water capacity (I think) than a 280.

It's got the short/fat powder column, 35 degree shoulder, and '06 powder capacity in a short case that allows more magazine room for high BC bullets to be seated outside the case. It was introduced in the Winchester 88 and 100, which aren't exactly Gun Looney rifles, and gave it a bad start IMO. If it had been introduced 25 years later in a bolt gun it might be all the rage with the more mainstream. The wildcatters and target shooters appreciate the cartridge as a jumping off point for other stuff, but the plain old .284Win doesn't draw much attention from the non-looneys when they can buy a 270/280/'06. At least this makes sense as I type it right now, after returning from the office Christmas party..........

Thanks neighbor. I am wondering whey the 284 folks didn't jump on the 7mmWSM with both feet? It seems it is dying a slow death and brass seems almost impossible to locate and even at high prices.

For a few more good reads on the 284 Win, google:

Jerry Tierney

Charles Ballard

Ryan Pierce

Marty Lobert

Grant Lovelock

---followed by "284 Winchester". All have used it VERY successfully. It may be the most under-rated cartridge out there. You just don't hear much about it, given what it can do.

I do not own a 284 Win. Simply because I'm a 7mm-08 slut from way back. I use custom 7-08 for hunting, and have a custom 7mm RM for LR. That said, if I could own only 1 7mm rifle, it would be a 284 Winchester. When ALL things considered, I think it is the best all-around 7mm cartridge, and has been for a long time.....

If the brass supply issue doesn't bother you, the 284 is a pretty well balanced chambering.

If going that route I would build on a long action though, to capitalize on OAL latitude and maximize available powder space.

A short action would be fine if one mainly intended to stay with bullets below 160 gr or so. With bullets like the 162, 168, 180, and even a 195gr Berger in the works, a long action makes sense to me. Throated for the longer bullets, a long action will let you capitalize on the best BCs available in 7mm, without filling up the case with bullet.

Shane

That's pretty sweet.

When I had 26" of barrel on my heavy 30-06 I was getting 2800 fps with moly'd 210 Berger, over 61 gr RL22. Great balance of velocity, BC, and bullet mass.

That bullet shot really well for me too. A few examples,





In the meantime I've cut my rifle back to 22.5", and am shooting the moly'd 208 Amax over RL17 for 2740 fps.

The 208 shoots well too, an example fueled by RL22 here,



My rifle liked the 190 gr Sierra very well too, that was the bullet I started out with back in 2000. There are higher BC options nowadays,


155gr Scenar,

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/montanamarine/30-06%20Targets/Img_7864.jpg[/img]

110gr VMax,

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v461/montanamarine/30-06%20Targets/Img_5159-1.jpg[/img]


Here's a recent pic of my rifle. Scope is a SWFA 12X.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/alb...90%20ABLR/PC090004_zpsb69e797c.jpg[/img]


Shane

Here's a little video I recently shot while playing with the Nosler 190 gr ABLR in the 30-06, at 1120 yards. MV 2920 fps via RL-17 and 22.5" bbl.

Here's the target, a chunk of moss about 15" wide by 12" tall,



Three minute video here,

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mon...mail_zpszxmlhzgy.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0

Once a long action is on the table, then the "advantages" of a 284 go right out the window. A plain vanilla 280 beats it everyday.

200fps more than what?



Agreed. I believe Melvin Forbes used to recommend the 284 but has since gone away from it... someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Uhhhh, no it doesn't....

The 280AI has caught my attention...minimum 9 twist...maybe 8.5..27" tube on a LA...308 boltface..AI formed brass from Nosler...std 280 brass from Norma..or '06 Lapua to neck down...IF I went the 284 Win route..Lapua 6.5x284 brass would be used...very good die selection in either choice..what I want is a non mag LR boomer...pretty much settled on 7mm..already have a LR 6.5x55 18# table gun..

What velocities do you get with 140s in the 6.5-284?

I have to admit I'm puzzled by this, too...but never owned a 284 so would like to know.

I get the part about the ability to seat bullets out; but in a Rem 700 action,which is really H&H length, can't you seat long VLD bullets out to greater length in the 280 as well?

I am curious where the extra 200 fps comes from in the 284?

06 case and the 284 case have nearly the same case capacity and nearly the same velocity, but if splitting hairs the shorter powder colum will be ever so slightly more accurate. That is why the 284 case is so popular with competitors.

The 200fps I was talking to Dave.

Long action, the 284 is faster than the 280 for reasons given.

Is it better? For strictly hunting, no. Performance is same whether long or short action.

For LR shooting? Well, I'll let the record(s) speak for themselves. The 284 has been impressive. While the 280 has been a non-factor.....

Yes. It is considered a mo' betta case. Stronger, less stretching, more efficient powder burn, and Lapua brass is available.

Some need to understand, this has a lot more to do with it than how much faster it is or isn't than a 280.......

2950-ish with 142 SMKs.....

I get 3050 and excellent accuracy in my 6.5-06 AI. 24" barrel. No case stretching.

And your point is what?

Let me know when the 6.5-06AI replaces the 6.5-284 in competitive shooting. Or wins anything. Or when Lapua brass becomes available.

The 6.5-284 can easily hit 3050fps. If you want it to.

Again, in a hunting rifle, it really don't matter which you pick....

I thought you said the 6.5-284 was superior? As far as competition, was that what the OP asked?

This is what I said. Same goes for the 6.5s in question.

If you wanna hash over which cartridges of nearly identical powder capacity are faster, go ahead, but leave me out.

It is clear what cartridges based on which case have accomplished in the real life shooting world. The 06 case is unused, while the 284 case sets records. You do the math.

Again, in a hunting rifle, no performance difference IMO.

For a competitive rig, well, the shooting world has already spoken loud and clear which case is the better choice.....

Good question. IDK. All the bullets he alluded to using were match bullets, so......

Lapua does not make 280 brass???

Norma does........no Luppy......

So does Winchester. So does Remington. So does Hornady. Is there something special about Norma that you single it out from the rest?

All are fine for hunting.

NONE are Lapua, nor close......

From the OP,

Sorry y'all!!! LOL I muddied the waters right out of the gate by invoking the 7mm SMK's.

Nonetheless I have greatly enjoyed this thread; we got to yakking up the 284win at the lunch table at work.

Many years ago I was talking cartridges for long range with Bruce Baer and he strongly suggested; first thing to check- does Lapua make brass for it? I went ahead and bought a RUM anyhow... LOL. Just a hint of Scots-Irish blood in my veins does in fact drive me to "frugality" in almost every decision I make.

Too funny. The guy asks about a hunting rifle, and you prattle on about competition shooting, and to top it off, refer to it as "real world."

What's funny is the fact that you got butt hurt because I'd still happily take the 6.5-284 than your AI-ed '06 case and that you somehow feel an imagined 100fps "advantage" carries any weight in said decision.

Don't whine because you built off the wrong case and the rest of the shooting world has proven it.....

I clearly stated multiple times that if for hunting, no performance difference. And you clearly decided to ignore this fact.

I'd go 6.5-284. You went 6.5-06AI. So what? Not worth starting a pissing match over. In a hunting rifle they do the same thing....

The BR advantage is too little to count in LR hunting or field shooting.

Is it real, sure it is. But that is a game where winning is often decided by hundredths of an inch. It's all about splitting hairs in every aspect of rifle, and ammo.

There are plenty of precision rigs out there with chamberings with 30-06 case lineage. They shoot very well.

It's probably near impossible to quantify the accuracy potential between a 280 Rem, and a 284 Win, both built for top accuracy, and precision ammo tuned to the rifle. If put to the test, I believe the difference would be less than .1 moa. Yes that would be a quantifiable amount, but it is so small as to get lost in the wind, on most days.

Anyone know the water capacity of the 284 vs the 280 AI?

I thought AI-ing the 280 would give it a noticeable bump in capacity over the 284.

And... can '06 Lapua brass be used for the 280?

Norma & Horny & Nozler are available today..........

Spot on as usually.

I seem to recall you saying that building on the 284 case was the only way to go, and the OP should skip the 06 case?

Maybe you made a mistake. Is that possible?

Sure is, but not this time, you can go back and check if you want.

Going to be tough to dispute.......

If choosing between 7mm's of 280 AI capacity, I will readily skip the LA and the .284 on any platform and go straight to the 7 SAUM....

In fact I would/did pick it over everything listed in this thread..


X-VERMINATOR

Being this question is posed in the long range forum, shouldn't the arguments be resigned to external and terminal ballistics only?

Yes!!

For hunting killing fighting in 06 or below; (don't like the recoil much above that and inefficiency of the case)

it almost seems to me to be a calculus problem/ subjective judgment call when a man tries to weigh all the compromises against each other.

1) High B/C killin bullet
2) Faster time of flight, (so wind can't mess with it as much)
3) Available components.
4) Affordable bullets, (so a fellow can practice)
5) Flatter trajectory (as far as your range finder will go)
6) Lastly... barrel life/throat erosion.

And... there was a thread a long time ago I cannot remember but it was asserted that the manufacturing process of bullets for some odd reason, the 30 cals come out concentricly balanced more oftener than the 7mm's and below. (but who cares if the 6.5's shave off margin of error in beating the wind!)

Arg

True, there are lots of variables, but the toughest one is wind so whatever you can do to minimize its effects should be at the top of the list. BC matters most, more than TOF. Velocity minimizes the effects of errors in ranging and keeps the round supersonic farther out, but these are easier to manage than wind.

What?


X-VERMINATOR

Look at the OP's post right above mine. Then read my response to his post. I guess I should've said there's a big gap between what he has at the top of his list (bc) and what he has second, as far as minimizing the effect of wind, since he mentioned TOF as helping buck the wind.

What you should have said was.... velocity and B.C. are what is most important and left it at that...


X-VERMINATOR

Nope. As far as bucking wind, BC comes first by a good margin.

Kinda depends on the situation. I know some guys who shoot with this theory:

A lower BC bullet fired from the same chambering as a higher BC bullet may have exactly the same or less wind drift because of Time of Flight

For example, the 123 Scenar and the 139 Scenar fired from the 6.5 Creedmoor. The 123 can be fired at a higher velocity and has less TOF. A buddy and I shoot the Creed. He was shooting the light bullet and I, the heavy. His data actually showed less drift out to a certain distance. We shot side by side at an 885 yard plate with the exact same wind hold, one after the other to replicate as close as possible the exact same wind conditions. The drift was identical.

At longer ranges, Higher BC takes over.

Take another example with different chamberings. The .264 WM firing a 123 at hyper-velocity vr. a Creedmoor firing the 139. The .264 will have much less drift because of TOF.

There are other "advantages" to shooting the light offerings as well; less drop with the added velocity. This is possibly a good thing to still make hits when mis-ranging a target by a few yards.


Having said all of that, I still choose High BC over lower BC/higher speed in the same chambering. I think that the higher BC bullet is more resistant to quick changes in wind.

I've done well with that theory.

The best of both worlds his being able to shoot the highest BC bullet a warp speed; .264 WM, 26 Nosler, 7 RUM, etc...

Thanks rc, this is along the lines of what I was getting at. Besides quick changes, a higher BC minimizes the effects of errors in judging the wind, which seem to be more common than errors in estimating range.

To each his own, but I'll go with a higher BC bullet over more speed (and the accompanying recoil) given the choice, especially when you go up to fast magnums. Recoil was one of the OP's criteria. Coincidentally it's one of mine too, I just don't enjoy extended range sessions with magnums as much as with say, a 260.

And the 123 scenar is kind of an anomaly anyway--probably the best combination of a relatively high BC in a light, fast bullet that I know of. When you compare it to the heavier scenars, there's not a huge difference in BC so of course the higher velocity makes more of a difference between those two particular bullets.

There is a "sweet spot" somewhere out there! LOL

All of this is helpful; thanks

Getting opinions from guys like rc and MontanaMarine is always a good thing.

One thing about warp speed is that at closer distances all that speed can be hard on match-type bullets.

...and what they hit

1)Highest B/C
2)In a (kinda-sorta) lighter bullet, (which slightly mitigates #1)but reduces TOF
3) Premium/bonded or partition.

So obviously it has to be a bullet that is 6.5, 7mm or maybe 30

What is the perfect "sweet-spot" bullet?

For killin invading chicoms and invading whitetails at the longest possible 06 case scenario???


(155/308/scenars?)

They all work.

The bottom line is that a Good Shooter will make first round hits regardless of his rifle

I re-read this and is chewing on it. You don't try to balance the TOF/B/C you just go highest B/C... got it. I missed the point earlier.

This thread is full of good discussion.

It motivated me to go over to Hornady ballistic calculator and run some numbers out of curiosity and to quantify some casual comparisons.

I ran calcs at 4000' asl, 59F.


I ran some calcs based on approximate velocities based on 24-26" barrels.

- 6.5-06/140gr Berger (BC .618) 2950 fps
- 280 180 Berger (BC .674) 2800 fps
- 30-06 230 Berger (BC .743) 2650 fps

I believe these starting points are fairly objective , but there may be room for any to be pushed a bit faster.


Here's your 600 yard drop/drift/velocity/energy (inches rounded to nearest inch.)

140 Ber 68"/17"/2211 fps/1520 ft-lbs
180 Ber 75"/16"/2138 fps/1829 ft-lbs
230 Ber 83"/16"/2066 fps/2180 ft-lbs


1000 yards,

140 Ber 248"/52"/1786 fps/ 991 ft-lbs
180 Ber 269"/50"/1755 fps/1231 ft-lbs
230 Ber 293"/48"/1724 fps/1517 ft-lbs

No surprises really. They are all pretty good. As I mentioned in my earlier posting, it might just come down to a personal preference depending on how you weigh drop, retained energy, recoil and barrel life.

LOL,,, I know I know... my redneck hillbilly pards scold me all the time, just larn what I got already.

But I got the addiction!

I am scratching my head seriously abut a 25-06AI with the heavier bullets. When are they gonna run out of killing steam?

MM

Thanks... that is the whole story right there pretty much.

I am not familiar with M/V's on a good load for a .25, do you have a good idea of one you can crank into your program for comparison?

If I was considering a 25-06 AI and pondering that question, I'd go with the .264 version, many more good high BC bullets to choose from.

Robert White,

Here's the best online calculator with the best bullet library,

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.1.cgi

The 215 Berger hybrid would probably better represent the 30, especially in AI. BC = 0.696.

I'm not too familiar with the 25-06AI, but you should be able to run the 115 gr Berger VLD to 3100 fps, I would guess.

With a BC of .466, it's just not going to hang.

The 215 Berger at 2750 or so should be darn good.

Berger 180 7mm .659........hunting VLD

purty close.......probably 1/10" difference @ 500 yd POI

Savage shooters........FYI...Pac Nor has a small shank

280 AI 24" SS SM tube on the shelf ready to ship...$435

Light Palma contour...someone must have ordered & backed out

I may order a 280AI P-N...but 27"

For lots of guys it's something in .264 diameter, it has the best combination of light bullets for low recoil (140s) and BCs in the 600's.

Here's a little heads up from my recoil slide. Lighter bullets at higher velocity recoils less.


7 Rem Mag..........120 grain........3,380.........12 7/8�
7 Rem Mag..........140 grain........3,027.........15 5/16�
7 Rem Mag..........170 grain........2,852.........19 15/16�

If you're talking about lighter bullets from the same cartridge, of course you are correct, but here's a little heads up from my reading comprehension guide:

I wasn't.

MM
I did give the Rel22 a good working over.For about the same weight of powder the Rel22 gave about 100 fps over the Hunter powder.
Back and forth I went between them at 600 yards.
My Obymeyer AMU is a 28 incher.
My top load with the Rel22 and the 210g LRBT ran at 2900.
The Hunter was 2800.
I settled on Hunter for one pure and simple reason.
It was more accurate in my barrel.
It was close.
I like the case very much but you dont see them very often as most people go with the WSM.
I like to be different.
The 06 and the 30 cal SAUM are very close.

Alot of people over look the LRBT lineup from Berger.
VLDs and hybrids have higher BCs and attract alot of attention.
But day in day out the LRBT is less fussy to tune and keep tuned than VLD and hybrids. At least in my experience.
I always read your 06 stuff with interest.

dave

That's great performance.

I haven't had any of the short mags, but I always thought the SAUM seemed like a well balanced design for the 7mm and 30 cal. The 6.5 SAUM seems to be a winner too.

smokepole,

I told my wife you like to have the last word. I said, "Watch this." You didn't let me down.

Too funny. My wife will never know you exist.

Obviously a sign of low self esteem and fear that your wife will leave you for ringman.

For my 1000 yard stuff.It has been very good for me.
Case life is excellent.
I have often thought a 300 SAUM with a straight up feeding mag in a sub 10 pound tactical rifle would be kinda handie to have around.
The 208g Amax say.The LRBT is a target only round.Would have to look into OAL and mag lengths and stuff.but I think it would be a interesting project.

A guy I shoot against right now is working over a 300 WSM set up for the 230g Hybrid. He used the Berger recommended 1-10 twist. At velocitys less than 2700 fps hes getting funny shaped bullets holes on paper at 100 yards.Once he get over 2700 the odd shaped bullet holes go away and it shoots ever so well.
He right on the edge.
Surprised Berger recommends that twist for the 230..
Ill have all next summer to shoot against him.will find out how that bullet does at 1000.

For the 1000 yard Silhouette we shoot.
There is no dominate round.
Last summer at the two day event some guy shot a 37 out of 40 with a 260 Rem.I shot a 34 with the 300 SUAM. And that day I was 4th.....
If I had to pick the most winning round we get beat with month in and month out it would be a 6x47 lapua with the 105g Berger hybrid.
Theres 6mm Dashers on the line as well.
Something about that little 6x47.

dave

I was shopping around for a 1/9 twist to rebuild my old 30-06

The old 175 grain 308 SMK B/C's

.505 @ 2800 fps and above
.496 between 2800 and 1800 fps
.485 @ 1800 fps and below

New plastic tipped 175-TMK B/C's
545 @ 2400 fps and above
.530 between 2400 and 1800 fps
.495 @ 1800 and below

I wonder if Sierra will continue putting tips on more of the heavier 308's?

lol, if I asked my wife to observe one of these exchanges about ballistic gack with a stranger on the internet she'd look at me like I had a third eye on my forehead.

She obviously doesn't shoot. If she did, she would understand...

Don't fear the puzzyPullingPower of the Ringman!

Is there some reason why you can't own one because you said you would if you could? Yet you don't! You own cartridges all around the 284. Yet you feel the ones you own are not as good such as the 7/08 and 7 mag?

Shod

I like the 264 WM I Have reached 3261fps with the Woodleigh 160gr PPSN with a BC of 0.509 and 3226fps with the JLK 130gr VLD with a BC of 0.620. I should be able to increase the 130gr bullet some but the 160gr bullet is at max. I want to try RL 33 but it has not shown up in the stores in my area yet.

Waiting for clarification!

Shod

For taking game at long range IMHO the 30-06 with a 208 A-Max has the weight and diameter to hit harder at distance than any smaller caliber.

You are wrong on that one at 500yards

Your Input Variables

Ballistic Coefficient 0.648 Velocity (ft/s) 2700 Weight (grains) 208
Maximum Range (yds) 500 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 100
Wind Speed (mph) 0 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 0
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78

Ballistics Results - 3006

Range (yards) Velocity (fps) Energy (ft.-lb.) Trajectory (in) Come UP in MOA Come UP in Mils Wind Drift (in) Wind Drift in MOA Wind Drift in Mils
vol ener
Muz 2700 3367 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 2562 3032 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 2429 2725 -3.8 1.8 0.5 0 0 0
300 2299 2442 -13.5 4.3 1.2 0 0 0
400 2174 2182 -29.8 7.1 2.1 0 0 0
500 2052 1945 -53.4 10.2 3 0 0 0

Your Input Variables

Ballistic Coefficient 0.509 Velocity (ft/s) 3261 Weight (grains) 160
Maximum Range (yds) 500 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 100
Wind Speed (mph) 0 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 0
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78

Ballistics Results - 264

Range (yards) Velocity (fps) Energy (ft.-lb.) Trajectory (in) Come UP in MOA Come UP in Mils Wind Drift (in) Wind Drift in MOA Wind Drift in Mils
vol ene
Mu 3261 3778 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 3063 3332 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 2873 2933 -2.2 1.1 0.3 0 0 0
300 2692 2575 -8.7 2.8 0.8 0 0 0
400 2518 2253 -19.9 4.8 1.4 0 0 0
500 2351 1963 -36.6 7 2 0 0 0

You are assuming that diameter and mass take a back seat to energy and that is simply not the

Notice what happens to energy in an Inelastic collision, which a bullet strike is.

Using 2700fps 30-06 for the 208 a max at 800yards you have 1042 ft lbs and my 264 using 3261fps the 160gr ppsn has 1264 ft lbs.

Again you are attaching too much importance to energy and not enough to diameter and mass.

If you bothered to look at the diagram that I posted above it shows that kinetic energy is not conserved in this type of collision. Momentum is conserved in all collisions. Kinetic energy is calculated but not measured. Momentum is measured.

Sorry JWP... what your telling the guy doesn't apply as much as you think it does.

You might want to look at bullet drop also. But all in all my bullet will kill the deer just as dead at the same range as yours and at farther distances.

Bullet drop is a known quanty and is easily accounted for with a turret scope and ballistics targeting soft ware.

You have facts to back up your position?

Remember this sentence in the opening post?

Your calcs for the 208 seem a little low.

I'm shooting the 208 Amax at 2740 fps, at 4300' asl. Using Litz BC (G7 .324), my 800 yard ballistics are 1862 fps, and 1611 ft-lbs.

If I set MV at 2700 fps, and elevation to sea level, I'm still getting a calculated 1704 fps, 1342 ft-lbs at 800 yards.

I know from experience that a 85gr hollow point at over 3800fps from my 264wm at one hundred yards will penetrate a 2 inch thick free hanging boiler plate as much as a 300 win mag loaded to max with 200gr bullet. Been there and done that.

Speed penetrates steel the faster the better, Steel ain't flesh. The small bullet is also small on momentum and the farther you go the more important momentum becomes.

Yep.

And, how many people can run 160s at almost 3300fps from a standard .264 WM? That's an outlandish number, to me....

Tanner

Me too

wouldn't the velocity required for bullet "performance at range" be the important question? Ie; brand X bullet requires X amount of velocity to "open"? Don't think critters care how fat the bullet is that ruins their day or the caliber for that matter. Go ahead beat me up.

Yes that will have bearing as well as the diameter and mass. At close range velocity is high as is the hydraulic pressure. The higher the velocity the higher the hydraulic pressure which aids in wound channel size. At long range the velocity is much lower as is the hydraulic pressure, diameter of projectile aids in wound channel size as does the added mass of the larger heavier projectile.

Agreed. Big fast bullets = good. But I have seen some amazing results from a 6.5 VLD being used farther out than I would have thought acceptable.

Never said they would not work,the question was "best for taking game at long range". To arrive at best hairs must be split.

ten4

That statement is so good I wish I thought of it. I have four or five pages of original thoughts and observations. That one should be there. Maybe in a year or two I might think it's an original thought. I hope not.

The 3261fps is using Woodleigh PPSN with a BC of 0.509 pushed by 73gr of H560 and is the 3 shot average. It is the bullet used in Europe for Moose. It is a max load as it shows signs of pressure. My 264 has a Shilen 30 inch barrel with 1 in 8 twist, 6 grove and a taper from 1 1/4inch to 3/4 inch at the muzzle with a 11 degree crown.

The heading of this thread leaves it open to any cartridge or bullet. What cartridge/bullet/caliber 06 and below is king

Don,t forget this sentence in the opening post

Are you and CLarkM buddies?

You mean, notwithstanding the fact that this whole thread excludes the 264 WM? You don't even need to read the OP, it's in the title.....

But you're right, that was a good one......

Not an engineer here, please dumb it down a little; kinetic energy equation would be speed + mass??

So when the powder burns it moves the mass at speed.

Energy is invested into speed and movement of the mass

So you are saying that the speed aspect is not as lethal or that the speed aspect evaporates in ineffectiveness to some extent, (in the context of terminal ballistics)?

I am not sure I am wording my questions correctly.

Speed is a primary factor in calculation of kinetic energy. Lots of people smarter than me have said that the effects of velocity are exaggerated in the formula in fact. Having said that, most people don't give a lot of credence to KE anyway, and focus on bullet placement and construction.

Factors that make up the wound channel are. 1-frontal area of projectile for direct amount of crushed tissue. 2-The amount of momentum transfered. 3-The amount of hydraulic pressure created which a direct result of velocity. 4- the amount of direct applied pressure.

The farther the target the lower the velocity as well as hydraulic pressure, therefor it plays a smaller role as distance increases.

30" barrel. I can see where a 264WinMag could make use of that.

FWIW, at 26", my 30-06 had no trouble making 2800 fps with the 208 Amax. I imagine 30" would put velocity around 2875 fps or so.

I prefer to compare different rifle rounds at equal length barrels, just to keeps things objective.

My 30-06's are 20" and 22.5". They start the 208s at 2700 and 2740 fps, respectively.

MM

I keep forgetting to ask. What is the twist rate on your tactical 30-06's??

Who was the gunsmith that built them for you?

RW,

I've only got two 30-06s.

One is a regular Rem700 sporter in a McMillan BDL pattern stock, with the factory 1/10 twist barrel cut to 20"



The other is a custom Rem 700. It's got a 1/10 twist barrel also. Douglas #7 contour, stainless. Mcmillan A2 stock. Badger Ordnance brake, floorplate, bolt knob, rail, rings, and recoil lug. This one was built back in 2000 by Iron Brigade Armory in Jacksonville, NC.

Thanks!

Hey! They put the bolt-handle on the wrong side! LOL