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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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"The quantity of New Testament manuscripts is unparalleled in ancient literature. There are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts, about 8,000 Latin manuscripts, and another 1,000 manuscripts in other languages (Syriac, Coptic, etc.). In addition to this extraordinary number, there are tens of thousands of citations of New Testament passages by the early church fathers. In contrast, the typical number of existing manuscript copies for any of the works of the Greek and Latin authors, such as Plato, Aristotle, Caesar, or Tacitus, ranges from one to 20." Ironic how no one is arguing about the validity of these other ancient works, only the Bible, the best supported ancient documents in the history of man. Yes, ironic. If the accuracy of the Bible is in doubt, it's a choice not to see the truth right in front of you.
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An 8 dollar driveway boy living in a T-111 shack
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Campfire Ranger
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"The quantity of New Testament manuscripts is unparalleled in ancient literature. There are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts, about 8,000 Latin manuscripts, and another 1,000 manuscripts in other languages (Syriac, Coptic, etc.). In addition to this extraordinary number, there are tens of thousands of citations of New Testament passages by the early church fathers. In contrast, the typical number of existing manuscript copies for any of the works of the Greek and Latin authors, such as Plato, Aristotle, Caesar, or Tacitus, ranges from one to 20." Ironic how no one is arguing about the validity of these other ancient works, only the Bible, the best supported ancient documents in the history of man. Yes, ironic. If the accuracy of the Bible is in doubt, it's a choice not to see the truth right in front of you. Considering how much of those authors works were lost when the Library of Alexandria burned, it's an apples/oranges comparison. Of course, there are myriad texts from the Hindus as well, but curiously I don't see you citing there numbers. When the only sectors of writing allowed in the West for centuries were religious in nature, it's no wonder that the copious religious texts exist. All you could write were documents supporting religion, and those that could write at all were religious scribes. Res ipsa loquitur.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire Ranger
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You guys ever hear of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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THE QUALITY OF MANUSCRIPTS
Because of the great reverence the Jewish scribes held toward the Scriptures, they exercised extreme care in making new copies of the Hebrew Bible. The entire scribal process was specified in meticulous detail to minimize the possibility of even the slightest error. The number of letters, words, and lines were counted, and the middle letters of the Pentateuch and the Old Testament were determined. If a single mistake was discovered, the entire manuscript would be destroyed.
As a result of this extreme care, the quality of the manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible surpasses all other ancient manuscripts. The 1947 discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls provided a significant check on this, because these Hebrew scrolls antedate the earliest Masoretic Old Testament manuscripts by about 1,000 years. But in spite of this time span, the number of variant readings between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic Text is quite small, and most of these are variations in spelling and style.
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An 8 dollar driveway boy living in a T-111 shack
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Campfire Regular
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When y'all meet Jesus, look out for that left hand. It's gonna be poopy.
He is an Arab after all. When you meet Jesus, you will not be able to look Him in the face or speak. You now, all the back and forth trying to prove and dissuade is pointless. It is a matter of faith, after all. And "Faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things not seen". A person either believes or not.
Last edited by Gun_Geezer; 03/03/15.
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Campfire Ranger
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Originally Posted By Ringman
renegade50,
Quote:
god forgives everyone for their sins up until their very last air breathing moment if they find him in their hearts according to the bible right???????
The simple answer is a resounding "NO!" Read the Whole Book to get the facts. Jesus says,
"He who has believed and been baptized will be saved."
Look up the word, "repent" to see there is more than belief.
honestly
I don't put a lot of belief into the bible as being the complete true word of god
it has been so to speak ,cut copied pasted and edited way too many times since the formation of christainity and its adoption as the official roman state religion. by way too many people in power(popes,kings rich people with influence)to suit their needs and purposes when convienant for them.
do a little research into the council of rome and biblical canon councils for various branches of christainity formed thruout the ages and what branches of christainity have what books in their version of "their bible" for what reasons
that would be a good start for you I think
Edited by renegade50 (Today at 02:11 PM) You dodged out on your own post. Whether you put a lot or zero stock in the Bible, I responded to your false argument about forgiveness from God. I showed your error from Jesus and suggested you check for future reference so you don't make the same mistake again. The idea the Bible has been cut and pasted shows willful ignorance on your part. The Old Testament was translated from Hebrew into Latin 285 years before Jesus was born. Learn about the Dead Sea scrolls.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Ranger
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Originally Posted By Ringman
renegade50,
Quote:
god forgives everyone for their sins up until their very last air breathing moment if they find him in their hearts according to the bible right???????
The simple answer is a resounding "NO!" Read the Whole Book to get the facts. Jesus says,
"He who has believed and been baptized will be saved."
Look up the word, "repent" to see there is more than belief.
honestly
I don't put a lot of belief into the bible as being the complete true word of god
it has been so to speak ,cut copied pasted and edited way too many times since the formation of christainity and its adoption as the official roman state religion. by way too many people in power(popes,kings rich people with influence)to suit their needs and purposes when convienant for them.
do a little research into the council of rome and biblical canon councils for various branches of christainity formed thruout the ages and what branches of christainity have what books in their version of "their bible" for what reasons
that would be a good start for you I think
Edited by renegade50 (Today at 02:11 PM) You dodged out on your own post. Whether you put a lot or zero stock in the Bible, I responded to your false argument about forgiveness from God. I showed your error from Jesus and suggested you check for future reference so you don't make the same mistake again. The idea the Bible has been cut and pasted shows willful ignorance on your part. The Old Testament was translated from Hebrew into Latin 285 years before Jesus was born. Learn about the Dead Sea scrolls. This from the person who doesn't believe in carbon-14 dating, and does believe that humans strolled around with dinosaurs on a planet that is only 4,000 years old. Oh, and believes in not getting paid for the work he's done but continues to show up for work every day, because ... well, who the hell knows why on that one. Priceless.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire Ranger
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I do my level best not to consort with Arabs now, much less when I'm dead.
Have met some fine Persian folks. I don't think Jesus is Persian though.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Spiritual blindness is a baffling thing, but not unexpected or unexplained.
Romans 11:8 ESV
As it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ESV
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Ephesians 2:2 English Standard Version (ESV)
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Romans 8:7-8English Standard Version (ESV)
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
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An 8 dollar driveway boy living in a T-111 shack
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Matthew 13:15English Standard Version (ESV)
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
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An 8 dollar driveway boy living in a T-111 shack
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Campfire Ranger
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Exactly who are you accusing of this, FB2?
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Exactly who are you accusing of this, FB2? Since you don't quote or explain what you are referring to, how can I know how to answer? Spiritual blindness maybe? If so... 1 John 4:3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
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An 8 dollar driveway boy living in a T-111 shack
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Campfire Ranger
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Spiritual blindness is a baffling thing, but not unexpected or unexplained.
Romans 11:8 ESV
As it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ESV
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Ephesians 2:2 English Standard Version (ESV)
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Romans 8:7-8English Standard Version (ESV)
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Let me try again. Exactly who are you accusing of this, FB2? Quoting Scripture is not an answer. You have some in mind, so speak it.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Campfire Tracker
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What one talks about the guy living inside of whale for 3 days? Always liked that one.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
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I understand your position. If I said I was a chicken dinner you could choose to believe me or not.  Examine the evidence for yourself. It's everywhere. http://www.reasons.org/articles/art...vidence-for-the-reliability-of-the-bible"Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors. (The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 102000 (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!" This^^^
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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It's not my job to condemn anyone for not believing. I was an unbeliever once. But I can easily identify what I'm dealing with-
1 John 4:3 English Standard Version (ESV)
3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
Matthew 12:33-37
"Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. "The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[a] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
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An 8 dollar driveway boy living in a T-111 shack
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Son of a liberal: " What did you do in the War On Terror, Daddy?"
Liberal father: " I fought the Americans, along with all the other liberals."
MOLON LABE
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Claiming that THOSE "prophesies" were specific in detail and date is laughable; completely and utterly laughable. There's another 1990 prophesies to choose from. Take your pick. Discredit all of them with a sarcastic remark. That would be the epitome of arrogance. No, that would fulfill the prophecy of John 12:40. 
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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[quote=john843]Fireball, that "proves" nothing. An earlier part of a book predicts a certain action or circumstance and later in the book it declares it fullfilled. Without knowing who truly wrote what when, you're just right back to "I have faith and believe in what it says". You truly do seem to be a man of strong belief and conviction and that IS admirable, but as far as it's being "proof" of anything, it's simply not.
John [/quote
Ah well, the facts remain. There were many OT prophesies regarding the future Messiah. If the NT gospels and the writings of Paul were correct, it would astounding and incomprehensible that one would conclude that the OT prophecies were not in fact fulfilled in the life and death of Jesus.
Prophecies made by different authors at different times and then all coming to fulfillment with Jesus? Remarkable for sure.
Having said that, I am of the belief that one so-to-speak "chooses what he believes." He can choose to believe in error if that is what his soul leads him to believe or he can believe in truth if that is where the spirit leads.
If one chooses to dismiss the OT prophecies and also dismisses the evidence pointing to fulfillment in Jesus, well, that is one's right I guess and ones choice. Live with it and die with it. So be it.
TF The problem with those "prophesies" is that they are so vague in detail, time, and actual occurrence that claiming them "fulfilled" is senseless. Like this one, 4 http://therefinersfire.org/israel_born_in_one_day.htm
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.
If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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"The quantity of New Testament manuscripts is unparalleled in ancient literature. There are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts, about 8,000 Latin manuscripts, and another 1,000 manuscripts in other languages (Syriac, Coptic, etc.). In addition to this extraordinary number, there are tens of thousands of citations of New Testament passages by the early church fathers. In contrast, the typical number of existing manuscript copies for any of the works of the Greek and Latin authors, such as Plato, Aristotle, Caesar, or Tacitus, ranges from one to 20." Ironic how no one is arguing about the validity of these other ancient works, only the Bible, the best supported ancient documents in the history of man. Yes, ironic. If the accuracy of the Bible is in doubt, it's a choice not to see the truth right in front of you. Considering how much of those authors works were lost when the Library of Alexandria burned, it's an apples/oranges comparison. Of course, there are myriad texts from the Hindus as well, but curiously I don't see you citing there numbers. When the only sectors of writing allowed in the West for centuries were religious in nature, it's no wonder that the copious religious texts exist. All you could write were documents supporting religion, and those that could write at all were religious scribes. Res ipsa loquitur. Fireball also fails to mention that to achieve those numbers you must include fragments of manuscripts, many as small as a post card. The number of complete manuscripts is much smaller.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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