…19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.…

Doc it seems to me that when the time comes for them,he will know what to do.

Psalm 19:1
The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above[a] proclaims his handiwork.

The reason for the urgency to share the Gospel!

Mike

Doesn't sound like anybody I know.

Yes, but there are those who vainly seek to disprove Him by say all who lived before Jesus were unjustly sent to hell and therefore He is unjust.

RL, if there were none like you or SH or AS, God would be proven a liar.

Here is an excerpt from the book And These Signs Will Follow.


Paul Boxer was a missionary whom I heard speak many years ago. One African tribe en mass accepted Jesus Christ at the conclusion of his first sermon. He told them about the God of creation sending His Son in the form of a Man. Afterward, he asked the chief why it was the entire village as a whole believed and received Jesus. The chief recounted to Paul,
"Two years ago, I was looking at the heavens and worshiping the moon god. I remember thinking, 'We have the sun god, moon god, hunt god, tree god, wind god and various other gods. In our village we have many tribesmen. There are some who are good at one thing and then others who are good at something else. Above them is my son. Above him is the Witch Doctor and above him is the Chief. I am Chief. Why should I worship any other god than the Chief God Who Is in charge of all other gods?’ I informed the tribe we would no longer worship many gods. We would worship only the Chief God. When you came and informed us about the Chief God, my people were ready to hear and receive His message.”
Talk about UNEXPECTED!

The most dangerous thing I know is to either delay or avoid seeking truth. God knows who wants to worship Him "in spirit and in truth" and will provide. The Judge of all the earth will do right...

I am, admittedly, lost on this in every sense. I guess, at some point, the dust will settle and for some that will matter.

Didn't any of you dumb fuggs go to Sunday School?

Once all souls have heard the word, and have had the opportunity to choose, then Revelations kicks in.

Until then, the word is still spreading. Try being a little fugging patient.



Travis

That would be impossible unless births stop at some point as we add about 365k new souls per day and they have to reach a certain age to hear and make a choice.

It's a good schtick for a cult to follow and promote their evangelism, though.

opium of the masses...

The rooster is going to crow three times and you're gonna end up with a pale horse up your ass.



Travis

The COCK will be dead before he makes the third "doodle-doo", and the rider can hitch the pony out front and join for some proper fried chicken, mashed potatoes, and gravy.

Jesus said that those who will be saved are drawn to him by God. In Romans, Paul went on to tell us who those are who are drawn. They're the ones who God foreknows, the ones who will answer. God doesn't call the ones who he knows won't answer. It's not predestination. We have free choice but God knows what that choice will be and those he calls to salvation.
As far as the OP question - how about those who have never heard? God foreknows them. He knows which ones will answer and some how, some way, he calls them all and they answer.

A lot of my "idle bible questions" were answered this way......

"What is That to YOU ? Follow Thou Me ."

So I quit asking.

Nothing like a superiority complex to go right along with religious conviction, right?

Predestined, obviously.

What about all the folks that died before Jesus? Do they automatically gain entrance, or did they all go straight to hell or spend eternity in some sort of limbo?

I didn't write the Bible. I just believe it. There's nothing superior about that.

There's a loophole. There always is for such questions. Of course, it's contradictory to church dogma but hey, why be consistent?

You certainly think yourself to be one of the superior ones that God knew before hand and called to Him (at the exclusion of others). That would be a superiority complex and at times it's rather evident.

Being saved isn't superior, it's smart. You have a choice of heaven or hell. There are no other options and you MUST choose one or the other. It's 100% your choice and at this point you seem to be wasting the chance of your lifetime. That's not smart.

To the OP:


I was told by a "good Christian" that those who had never heard the word because they were raised in another culture were all going to hell.



Nothing like brotherly love....

Don't trust anyone that say's they know God's mind.

Kent

Of course they are.

Isn't the Bible required reading for MENSES?



Dave

Your 'good Christian' needed to try reading the Bible. Every one will get a chance no matter where they are. How they get that chance is beyond my knowledge but they'll get it. God's desire is that NO MAN will perish and he set it up so they'll all get the chance.

Actually, you have a choice of reading fiction, or non-fiction.

You have no idea at what choices I've made, but you certainly like to guess and feel superior. Several of my better friends are devout Christians and I have NEVER seen or experienced from them any level of the superiority complex or evangelical bent that many on here wrap themselves in.

If God calls to a man's heart and knows what's in that heart before hand, I think there are a lot of "Christians" out there that wrap themselves up in the Word but haven't truly been called at all, as their heart isn't a reflection of God's Love, and there are a lot more out there that live that Love and that Word without making a righteous ass of themselves that, while overlooked by the "Christians", are themselves truly called and destined.

He knows His own, and can pick wheat from chaff more easily than many realize. He also can see right through the self-righteous "Christians" that try oh so hard to convince everyone (including themselves) that they are "blessed", when in fact they know that they are not.

Now, I'm not accusing you personally of being a "false Christian", but you know as well as I do that there are more than few of those out there (on here?) and they are among the first to "spread the Word" to "show their Faith". Much like a peacock ain't much more than a glittery chicken, all that fancy professing can't cover up what's really underneath.

You're going to wish you had read the Bible when you and your high IQ are burning in hell.



Dave

I'll be wishing Id done a number of things differently....as Im visiting with you at the humidor....

Nope. I'll be in heaven.

With Ringman and Rock Chuck and eyeball and curdog.

Wait... Hold on...




Dave

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"

Priest: "No, not if you did not know."

Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
--Annie Dillard

I always found this an intriguing concept.

When I was a little child I asked my pastor the same question and he gave the same answer.

So I said, "It sounds like we should quit sending missionaries."

He did not have a good answer. The real answer, of course, is that we make converts to get more and more people putting money in the collection plate.....thus we increase our financial power, our influence and our nation's hegemony.

Dang!


We will need to talk about this repentance thing over a few beers....

4- a correction if I may. All are called, few are chosen.

Travis- we fervently pray you and the leopard will be there.

uh-oh.

Again, so much for the "all you have to do is ...." and that goes right back to the superiority complex. For a God that loves us all and wants a relationship with us all to save us all, "chosing" just a few is counter to that.

That's the BS of a man-made religion over God.

If God has the sense of humor that I believe Him to have, I fully expect to see Ken Howell as the guardian of the Pearly Gates, just before I plunge into a pool of fire.

I'll be there. Mensa man will not.



Dave

PS- God and I will likely be calling the shots once I arrive so I'd keep your Texas origins to yourself if you do in fact make it.

Remember in Monopoly when you automatically pass go and collect $200.00?

It's like that. Only different.



Clark

Ken will forgive you, let you in, and give you the finger as you pass. All problably well earned.

It was explained to me that you are judged according to what you know. “To those who much is given, much is expected”.

We all have an internal compass that points out right or wrong whether we have heard the word or not.

Mighty white of you to send me to heaven. Do Clark and Travis agree?

You should know that Ringman and Rockchuck ain't gonna want to ride with me.

Among the globe's six billion people, there are something like 700+ religions. Each and every one of them proclaiming it is the one and only true religion. Everyone who doesn't believe in their God or Buddha, or Allah or Great Mog will go to hell or the equivalent. Or Detroit, perhaps.

If you're playing the odds, maybe you'd better believe in all of them, equally.


Or not.

That's about a jerry can full of aviation gas right there.

Eyeball, you realize you're living your life according to the rules of a pack of middle eastern, goat fuggin' dune coons, don'tcha?

They wore desses (I've seen the drawings), they all looked like corporal Klinger, and 2000 years later they still screw goats, so God only knows what they did back then.

Yet that's your guiding light?

I ain't saying you're wrong, just be careful how much stock you put into it. Them swarthy bastids is crafty!

What about those that HAVE heard the Word, and realize that true hell is spending eternity with those that spread the Word?

Your racist comment is not Christ like.

I agree that one should not combine Texans with Oregonians.



Travis

Well positioned canon lawyers can navigate the pesky sin details... look at the Kennedys (murder, divorce, etc).

The Four Horsemen!

It no longer surprises me to see racist comments on this forum.

It does surprise me when they come from supposedly "Christian" people who should know better.

But, I guess that's just the way things are.

There's only one God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God knows a man's heart, and will render judgement accordingly.

Prove this please.

I don't have an answer to this question, it's over man's head or understanding anyway, but,,, I do know all those TV preachers asking for all that money so they can tell the world are not the answer either.

Deal with it. I've had about as many Black guys use the term as White guys.

Is it possible for me to "prove" I love my kids?

Well..... is it?

[quote=Rock Chuck]Jesus said that those who will be saved are drawn to him by God. In Romans, Paul went on to tell us who those are who are drawn. They're the ones who God foreknows, the ones who will answer. God doesn't call the ones who he knows won't answer. It's not predestination. We have free choice but God knows what that choice will be and those he calls to salvation.


That's completely illogical and impossible.

That's no excuse.

Exactly. There you sit surrounded by a bunch of Pollocks, yet you still them as people, and dumb ass Pollocks.

I don't understand why others can't do the same.



Travis

Father Abraham had many sons. And many sons had father Abraham. And I am one of them. And so are you. And so are people from Kenya.




Clarke

WTF???????




Dave

What a tortured, desperate and nonsensical attempt to answer the question.

Read it through a few times.....you laugh harder with each reading.

Well... I guess it's a good thing for me that I don't need to be excused by you.

Is GFY "Christian" enough for you?

It was a phase.

Nope. But simply saying you love your kids doesn't make it true either.

"That's completely illogical and impossible."

If it's any consolation, the "First Pope" had trouble getting his head around it, too.

Lot's of folks are gonna be surprised when they die and wake up in Purgatory.

Purgatory is the Hebrew word for Texas. Just an FYI.



Travis

Whats the Word ":Thunderbird"
Whats the price? 25 twice.

O K..... Then today is "Purgatory Independence Day".

Technically, Purgatory in Maine and Hell is in Michigan.

To those of you arguing against the Word, if you win this argument in your own mind, and there is no afterlife as was promised to true believers, what do you look forward to after your threescore years and ten?

g

Contrary to popular opinion, its not Detroit or Flint.

It is a little town.

And its cold.

A brake from His followers...

There's no "winning" since we won't know the answer until we die.

Steelhead, after years of reading your posts, I think I finally found a mistake.

break, not brake.

but I agree with the spirit of your post

A valid question.

Steelhead's comment is accurate, to a degree, though flippant.

I'm far more concerned about my "three score and ten"; being a good husband, a good father, a good friend, and a good man. Those things I can control. What comes after, is beyond my control. Yes, yes, I know some believe they can control that by uttering an incantation, but they really can't. They can hedge a bet, but that's it, and they can believe. What, to me, is more important is what I do with the "three score and ten".

I know what I hope comes next, but I don't "know" it any more or less than any true believer of any faith that swears that they "know" because they read something they believe.

Yep.

No, death has a stopping effect.

Be one Buddhist, Christian, or whatever; if they live a kind and gentle life and follow the golden rule, I pray God will see the way to let them in at the end.

The promise of a reward is a poor reason to do good.

Yeah........ Ego is a much better reason.

Perhaps 72 virgins?

I don't think we are anything special, just animals with the ability to grill. I'm not the one that believes that God has a 'SPECIAL' place for me because I'm SPECIAL.

We think too highly of ourselves and apparently need the belief of some fantasy island in the sky to remind us just how special we are.

Worm dirt is all we are.

God has a 'special' place for us all because HE is 'special'. That special place is bein' with Him...bein' in His presence.

But livin' a life here on earth and havin' a personal relationship with our Creator...without takin' anything in the afterlife into consideration...is a pretty good way to live.

Prove this please.

Please consider listening to John the Baptist, Jesus, and the disciples he chose. You can go crazy trying to make sense out of Paul. He runs around in circles and judges and gripes. Jesus didn't ever mention "oh by the way I'll send someboby else who will seem to be a Roman agent, hiding behind a claim of conversion". Paul fits the pattern of a perjurer. I've seen it many times in court. A perjurer will admit to most of the facts, but make small changes or additions (lies) that turn the whole case around. Jesus and John both preached salvation through repentence. John very clearly told some folks to bring forth fruits of repentence when he detected their insincerity. Jesus very clearly said that the law was in effect until Heaven and earth pass away. Jesus said of men "you shall know them by their fruits". If you read Paul, you might want to be skeptical about this predestination of the chosen and elect unless you can find where his testimony is supported by Jesus. I believe Paul's letters are his but I don't accept them on the level with the gospels and the accounts of people that Jesus publicly chose. If you are a church member, look around. You see someone like Paul in the congregation, divisive and controlling.

People should worry about living.

Holt [bleep] this is funny.

So being made in His image, with a conscience that allows you to determine that there is a right and a wrong so you can consciously strive to do good, as opposed to an animal which has no such capability, does not make us special?

Heck, being able to build things like airplanes makes us special. He said we are wonderfully made and we certainly are, especially when compared to inhuman creatures ( animals).

Prove this please.

You got that right.......

That's your favorite question. My favorite answer is for you to look up the word "faith". Good luck.

I have FAITH that you are wrong and that eyeball will be sucking dog cock in hell.

I think a lot of people confuse faith with hope.

What animal then worries about or strived to be or do good, SH?

You!

Well, i guess that would make you 'Special'.

I don't worry about those who have never heard the Word. God is Merciful and Just. That's in His court. Like my 'ol buddy Curdog is oft to say, "what is that to you, follow thou Me". About 10 times out of 10, that's the answer to such questions.

When I get to the pearly gates, as he prepares to cast me into hell, I'll do my best to grab hold of him and kick his ass for not making himself evident to me. God never fails to disappoint.

Why not challenge Him to do that now, instead of waiting?

How do you know that he hasn't?

I think it's funny how many of you losers are gonna burn in hell.




Dave

Just remember who you're going to be sitting on a cloud with in Heaven, with nothing to do except stroke each other's harps and talk about how FAABULOUSSSS being in Christ's presence is. All day, every day, for eternity.

Don't worry about me and the HJIC. We'll be A-ok.




Travis

Yep, and surrounded by His followers all day, with nothing to do except stroke each others harps and listen to his followers talk about how FFAAAAABBULOUSSSS it is to be in His presence. For Eternity.

Here 'ya go..........

http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/what-happened-to-people-who-died-before-the-cross/

I'm used to Christians stroking my harp.





Travis

You'd have to stroke theirs, too. And then there would the fawning, constantly, over someone other than you, for all eternity and with nothing else to do.

That may be what your idea of what heaven is, but God's is much different.

But either way, you and all the other losers are going to hell and I'm not.



Clark

Oh, that's not my idea of Heaven. That's the idea I get from all of His self-professed followers.

Old Saul/Paul was nothing more than a charlatan. A shade of today's crooked TV evangelists.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Mythmaker-Paul-Invention-Christianity/dp/0062505858

..but Ingwe will be dropping the leopard spandex cause God is a God of mercy.

NO ONE wants an image of ingwe dropping Spandex trou. NO ONE, not even God.

You must read the Bible. Don't listen to safariman.



Dave

Also, the original Indiana Jones film has some good Bible info.




Travis

All true. Being a good husband, father, and man are all magnificent goals. You do, however, control one more thing. If you believe God and do what He says, and it is not an incantation, you will go to heaven. The "sinners prayer" is not found in the Bible. Acts 2:38 tells us what we have to do. God calls us all. Your response to that call is what you control.

I know that I am new to this site, but I have read a lot. I think that you are a lot closer than you think.

Amen...closer than you think.

I appreciate that.

Apparently, though, you and other Christians here aren't exactly on the same page with who is called. You say He calls everyone; others say He only calls the ones He knew of before (the chosen few, as it were).

I just cut out the bullschit and do buy into any religions of man. What I believe, and why, is between me and God.

The funniest part is guys like 4ager are going to hell, while dirtbags like me get to go to heaven.




Travis

Well said, sir

I agree. God doesn't like religion either.

Where does the Bible say that?



Travis

You're going to hell.

I'll see you there.

I believe it's in Hysterectomy. Gut wrenching story.

Fixed it for ya.

I guess it depends on your definition of religion. Jesus wasn't too keen on the Pharisees.

Beer, all over the keyboard. Bastid.

Maybe I should have said, I don't think God likes religion either. That's more like it.

James 1 26-27

Waiting by the phone......

I read, "So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Are you really sure you want to take that risk?

g

What the Christian fundamentalist believe every word in the Bible is the absolute truth.
What the radical Muslims believe every word in the Koran is the absolute truth.

What joy this absolute, unyeilding belief has brought us.

Yep.

You people crack me up........those comments sound like an O'Bama speech writer.

Not even SATAN!

Insert P.T. Barnum quote here.

It's true. Left me with a hollow feeling.

And I barely do that.

It's understandable that unbelievers can't see the truth. No sense getting all worked up about it as a believer, we should expect no less than ridicule. As an unbeliever and I could read the words in the Bible but it was literally like a foreign language. I could read it, but it sounded like jibberish. Then, one day, I was saved. The book took on life, which is exactly what the Bible says it is to a believer, life. It also says it's foolishness to an unbeliever. Proven here today.

From a purely objective point of view, how can two otherwise similar people have such vastly different understandings of simple language as written in the Bible, if not for spiritual revelation to the believer? The words are not complicated, yet the unbeliever cannot accept them, indeed most cannot even read them! What other book is it said of, "It cannot be read"?
It's because the nasty nature within us wars against God and His word, and until we recognize our rebellion and failure, we are at odds with God. We are enemies of God.

He promises to reveal Himself to any that ask, to show Himself to any that seek, yet our pride won't allow it. We want to be the God of our lives. You can see that richly displayed in this thread. The unbelievers are standing tall and boastful against God. Make no mistake, there will be a day to answer for our (mine included) rebellion.

Sad thing is, an unbeliever thinks believing comes at great cost to "fun" things. They think the Bible and christianity is a behavior modification program. Like a ten step for addictions. I didn't realize when I accepted Christ how my desires would change, and I would be happy about it! Hard to understand I know.

The Bible's truth is revealed super-naturally. You have to step out in faith to receive revelation. It sounds crazy my friends, but I assure you that is the only way to comprehend the Bible. More than understand, more than read with cognitive recognition. It's LIFE, THE ANSWER.

Like blood is the life in your body, God is life in our spirit. Without it, there is futility, death, hopelessness. Again, you can see the futility and hopelessness of the unbelievers posting here. Just an angst, a hostility towards God and other men. Yet, they cannot see.

Been challenging for 50 years. Maybe one day he will make it clear to me, until then I'll just keep poking away at it. I grew up smothered in Christianity. When I was 6 years old sitting in Sunday school it seemed like such a crock, always felt I was being conned and manipulated.

You have been. By Satan.

Yep, twelve years of Catholic school(high school was my option) six or seven years as an altar boy(again,my choice) was enough for me. I tried to immerse myself in the ritual but I was always skeptical. I was close to two priests. (If I served a funeral in the summer one particular priest would drive me home and take a dip in the pool and help himself to one of my dad's beers!) I spoke at length about my doubts and fear of eternal damnation if I didn't believe. The best advice I got was similar to curdog's of keeping an open mind.

Fireball you are arrogant and assuming. You have no idea what's in the heart/mind of an unbeliever other than what you read in a book that just might be 2000 year old folklore.

Truth hurts is all. If you can get past the ritualistic religiosity and see that Jesus also stood against the very same, you'd see some hope in the message of the gospel. Since when is "Good News" bad news? When you want to be God of your life.

When y'all meet Jesus, look out for that left hand. It's gonna be poopy.

He is an Arab after all.

Again, you can't prove it's the truth. And in a way we are all "gods" of our lives, ever heard of free will?

That cuts both ways, friend.

Thanks, coffee all over my monitor!

Enough information for an excellent question right there... but it will remain unasked

Everybody takes their best guess, and hopes they are right. Some things make sense to one guy and seem ridiculous to the next, doesn't necessarily make one smarter than the other. End of the day, we follow the path we think is right, but not a one of us KNOWS for sure. Most people seem to be very uncomfortable with not knowing for certain, and vehemently deny this lack of knowing, but the fact remains.

You don't have to guess. Men guess because they don't have the assurance promised in the Bible, thru salvation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They rely on what they can think through, which requires no faith at all.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. Proverbs 3:5

Once you have assurance, you are no longer guessing, with all the apprehension and angst seen here by unbelievers. The Bible promises peace that surpasses understanding, and it delivers.

And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:7

The truth only hurts if we're wrong.

Since you're guessing about that you "know" just as much as anyone else, and you're simply basing it on your belief, your "truth" is just as much right/wrong as that of anyone else.

You won't agree, because of your faith and your belief, but that is in fact, fact.

I don't expect any unbeliever to believe.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. Matthew 7:7

I see where you're going. Fortunately,I can answer no. As a matter of fact he would as me if there were any good looking girls in the neighborhood I could invite over!

god forgives everyone for their sins up until their very last air breathing moment if they find him in their hearts according to the bible right???????

even serial killers
murderers
rapist
child molesters
inhumane dictators and leaders
?????????????????????






sounds like we all have a chance then.........













gonna meet some infamous interesting souls on the other side of saint petes gate from the way it can all work out I geuss




pass the plate and donate




that probably wont last long if donations to charity cant be used as deductions for taxes in the future
specially if dems keep on getting elected president

Quoting your own beliefs as a source of "fact" does not make them "fact". It simply reinforces what your belief is.

A Muslim or a Buddhist or a Hindu would do the same with regard to those not of their faith, and you would not believe them as having "fact", would you?

Despite appearances, there are no undirected lives. When a man chooses to direct his own life, he is operating under an illusion. His thinking will be shaped by others, either in words or deeds. He was made a "searcher" and that compulsion to search will never leave him until he finds what he is searching for.

That search is actually a search for spiritual rest. Many opt for the counterfeit version of that spiritual rest in alcohol, drugs, sex, work, or gambling. Excessive religiosity is one sure sign of a man still searching.

Adopting the Bible as the source for spiritual rest has its own hazards. A man's ego becomes involved in such subtle ways that he winds up directing his own life, with his thinking shaped by others.

Only a full and complete surrender to the will of the Creator of the Universe will put a man in harmony with that Universe and he will then be at rest.

But........... what about Satan?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't need any help in earning a front row seat in whatever Hell there may be.

FWIW.... I directed my own life for 43 years and wound up a Drunk on the scrap heap of humanity. I surrendered [Hell.... I could have surrendered to a monkey and bettered myself at that time] to the God that made me thirty years ago and life is good.

I found that spiritual rest.

ding ding ding
winner winner
chicken dinner

You guys think if Rick re-opened the Christ at the campfire forum, that maybe you good Christians could try to get along so he dont have to shut it down again?

It'd give you all a nice place to preach/talk down to each other...

Still a guess in every way. You feel assured that you are correct, which is great, but doesn't change the fact that it's a guess. It's ok, I'm just guessing too,based on my own experiences.
Angst and apprehension are in my experience far more common in the believers than non believers, though neither side has the market cornered.

ding ding ding
another winner
for a chicken dinner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I understand your position. If I said I was a chicken dinner you could choose to believe me or not. Examine the evidence for yourself. It's everywhere.

http://www.reasons.org/articles/art...vidence-for-the-reliability-of-the-bible

"Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors.

(The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 102000 (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!"

And how many of those word for word prophecies occurred BC?

Hindsight is always 20/20..

Come on man, don't make me do all the Googling!

10 prophesies recently fulfilled

http://www.therefinersfire.org/recent_prophecy.htm

You understand that a prophecy is made before it's fulfillment, right? That means it was recorded before it occurred, and was documented.

Yes, so we're told.

Claiming that THOSE "prophesies" were specific in detail and date is laughable; completely and utterly laughable.

and all of the ignorant would follow them right on over there, just like they do on every Christian themed thread on this board.

It wasn't "scum" that led to it being cloistered and then closed, it was the "true believers". Hell, it was cloistered and only open by password and invitation for quite some time, and STILL it got shut down by the actions of "believers".

Not at all..It was the good Christians that got it nuked..Ironic

There's another 1990 prophesies to choose from. Take your pick. Discredit all of them with a sarcastic remark. That would be the epitome of arrogance.

Outright lie would be one way to put it..

It is exciting to think Jesus will someday return to save us from his followers tho.

Hell fireball, Nostradomus was more specific in the prophecy that's attributed to him than the 10 examples you provided. "A tree will grow in Israel?" That's pretty low hanging fruit as far as earth-shattering predictions go.
John

http://www.bible.ca/b-prophecy-60.htm

Prophecy is foretelling an event in such detail before it happens so as to necessarily require divine guidance. The Bible is a book containing hundreds of detailed prophecies. There are, for example, well over 60 distinct predictions in regard to our divine Saviour Jesus Christ. Here is a sample of just 10 prophecies that foretold the crucifixion of Christ. Not only were the predictions made 1000 years before Christ came from heaven to earth, but they were made over 500 years before crucifixion was first used anywhere in the world as a form of capital punishment! Crucifixion didn't exist when the prophecies were made.

A scientist picked out 48 such prophecies and determined that the probability of one man randomly fulfilling them all is 1 in 10 to the exponent of 157. That is one followed by 157 zeros! Your chances of winning a typical lottery jackpot is about 1 in 108. (100,000,000) Yet, Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies!
Concerning his birth Prophesied Fulfilled
1. Born of the seed of woman Gen 3:15 Gal 4:4
2. Born of a virgin Isa 7:14 Mt 1:18-25
3. Seed of Abraham Gen 22:18 Mt 1:1
4. Seed of Isaac Gen 21:12 Lk 3:23+34
5. Seed of Jacob Num 24:17 Lk 3:34
6. Seed of David Jer 23:5 Lk 3:31
7. Tribe of Judah Gen 49:10 Rev 5:5
8. Family line of Jesse Isa 11:1 Lk 3:32
9. Born in Bethlehem Mic 5:2 Mt 2:1-6
10. Herod kills the children Jer 31:15 Mt 2:16-18
Concerning his nature

Prophesied

Fulfilled

11. He pre-existed creation Mic 5:2 1 Pet 1:20
12. He shall be called Lord Ps 110:1 Acts 2:36
13. Called Immanuel (God with us) Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22-23
14. Prophet Deut 18:18-19 Acts 3:18-25
15. Priest Ps 110:4 Heb 5:5-6
16. Judge Isa 33:22 Jn 5:22-23
17. King Ps 2:6 Jn 18:33-37
18. Anointed by the Spirit Isa 11:2 Mt 3:16-17
19. His zeal for God Ps 69:9 Jn 2:15-17
Concerning his ministry

Prophesied

Fulfilled

20. Preceded by a messenger Isa 40:3 Mt 3:1-3
21. To begin in Galilee Isa 9:1-2 Mt 4:12-17
22. Ministry of Miracles Isa 35:5-6 Mt 9:35;11:4
23. Teacher of parables Ps 78:1-4 Mt 13:34-35
24. He was to enter the temple Mal 3:1 Mt 21:10-12
25. Enter Jerusalem on donkey Zech 9:9 Mt 21:1-7
26. Stone of stumbling to Jews Isa 28:16; Ps 118:22 1 Pet 2:6-8
27. Light to Gentiles Isa 49:6 Acts 13:46-48
The day Jesus was crucified

Prophesied

Fulfilled

28. Betrayed by a friend Ps 41:9 Jn 13:18-27
29. Sold for 30 pieces of silver Zech 11:12 Mt 26:14-15
30. 30 pieces thrown in Temple Zech 11:13 Mt 27:3-5
31. 30 pieces buys potters field Zech 11:13 Mt 27:6-10
32. Forsaken by His disciples Zech 13:7 Mk 14:27+50
33. Accused by false witnesses Ps 35:11+20-21 Mt 26:59-61
34. Silent before accusers Isa 53:7 Mt 27:12-14
35. Wounded and bruised Isa 53:4-6 1 Pet 2:21-25
36. Beaten and spit upon Isa 50:6 Mt 26:67-68
37. Mocked Ps 22:6-8 Mt 27:27-31
38. Fell under the cross Ps 109:24-25 Jn 19:17; Lk23:26
39. Hands and feet pierced Ps 22:16 Jn 20:24-28
40. Crucified with thieves Isa 53:12 Mt 27:38
41. Prayed for enemies Isa 53:12 Lk 23:34
42. Rejected by His own people Isa 53:3 Jn 19:14-15
43. Hated without cause Ps 69:4 Jn 15:25
44. Friends stood aloof Ps 38:11 Lk22:54;23:49
45. People wag their heads Ps 22:7;109:25 Mt 27:39
46. People stared at Him Ps 22:17 Lk 23:35
47. Cloths divided and gambled for Ps 22:18 Jn 19:23-24
48. Became very thirsty Ps 22:15 Jn 19:28
49. Gall and vinegar offered Him Ps 69:21 Mt 27:34
50. His forsaken cry Ps 22:1 Mt 27:46
51. Committed Himself to God Ps 31:5 Lk 23:46
52. Bones not broken Ps 34:20 Jn 19:32-36
53. Heart broken Ps 69:20;22:14 Jn 19:34
54. His side pierced Zech 12:10 Jn 19:34+37
55. Darkness over the land Amos 8:9 Lk 23:44-45
56. Buried in rich man's tomb Isa 53:9 Mt 27:57-60
His Resurrection & Ascension

Prophesied

Fulfilled

57. Raised from the dead Ps 16:8-11 Acts 2:24-31
58. Begotten as Son of God Ps 2:7 Acts 13:32-35
59. Ascended to Heaven Ps 68:18 Eph 4:8-10; John 3:13
60. Seated beside God Ps 110:1 Heb 1:3+13
Today, the only way Bible scoffers can explain away this astronomical probability is to discredit the prophecies in one way or another. Their only alternative is to accept that God is the author of the Scriptures. The Bible is a reliable book of genuine divine prophecy. You can trust it!
The evidence of divine prophecy presented here is just a tiny portion of the proofs available to establish the divine origin of the Bible. Yet, they are more than sufficient to prove the inspiration of the Bible. There will always be men who scoff at the Bible. You, however, can be confident when you read your Bible that God is the author, for it is written:
"We constantly thank God that when you received from us the word of God's message, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God" (1 Thessalonians 2:13).

Fireball, that "proves" nothing. An earlier part of a book predicts a certain action or circumstance and later in the book it declares it fullfilled. Without knowing who truly wrote what when, you're just right back to "I have faith and believe in what it says". You truly do seem to be a man of strong belief and conviction and that IS admirable, but as far as it's being "proof" of anything, it's simply not.
John

renegade50,



The simple answer is a resounding "NO!" Read the Whole Book to get the facts. Jesus says,

"He who has believed and been baptized will be saved."

Look up the word, "repent" to see there is more than belief.

[quote=john843]Fireball, that "proves" nothing. An earlier part of a book predicts a certain action or circumstance and later in the book it declares it fullfilled. Without knowing who truly wrote what when, you're just right back to "I have faith and believe in what it says". You truly do seem to be a man of strong belief and conviction and that IS admirable, but as far as it's being "proof" of anything, it's simply not.
John [/quote

Ah well, the facts remain. There were many OT prophesies regarding the future Messiah. If the NT gospels and the writings of Paul were correct, it would astounding and incomprehensible that one would conclude that the OT prophecies were not in fact fulfilled in the life and death of Jesus.

Prophecies made by different authors at different times and then all coming to fulfillment with Jesus? Remarkable for sure.

Having said that, I am of the belief that one so-to-speak "chooses what he believes." He can choose to believe in error if that is what his soul leads him to believe or he can believe in truth if that is where the spirit leads.

If one chooses to dismiss the OT prophecies and also dismisses the evidence pointing to fulfillment in Jesus, well, that is one's right I guess and ones choice. Live with it and die with it. So be it.

TF

The problem with those "prophesies" is that they are so vague in detail, time, and actual occurrence that claiming them "fulfilled" is senseless.

Well, let me give you a bit of my story. I was a non-believer and carpooling to and from the mine I worked at and noticed a book on this guys back shelf in the car. It was titled "The Late, Great Planet Earth." I thought is was a science fiction book and asked if I could borrow it. He looked at me in a funny way and said "sure". So, I took it and began to read. I was very surprised about what I read and did have a bible around from my kid days and started to read the book and then check the verses as they were presented in the book. Reading the book and checking the verses started off a 3-4 year investigation that ended up with me concluding that what I was reading in the bible was in fact true. I became a follower of the Lord and this book was a kinda kickoff point.

So, you can conclude that the prophecies were too vague and what not, but others may reach a different conclusion, as did I.

TF

btw, I have since concluded that Had Lindsey is not one of my favorite authors.

If you look at the "prophesies" themselves, you could make that vagueness stick, or not, onto a myriad of events - depending upon whether you wanted to or not. You wanted to believe them, so you did and you do. Fine; that's called faith, not fact.

honestly
I don't put a lot of belief into the bible as being the complete true word of god

it has been so to speak ,cut copied pasted and edited way too many times since the formation of christainity and its adoption as the official roman state religion. by way too many people in power(popes,kings rich people with influence)to suit their needs and purposes when convienant for them.

do a little research into the council of rome and biblical canon councils for various branches of christainity formed thruout the ages and what branches of christainity have what books in their version of "their bible" for what reasons
that would be a good start for you I think

Well, you have a bit of a point. One could look at a pumpkin and call it a basketball if he wanted to. After all, kinda round, kinda orange, about the same size. No matter what you tell me, I'm gonna believe it is a basketball. That belief will work for some but only up to the time the game starts and then one will find that it is not a basketball at all. That which he believed in will be smashed at the tip off.

That ball "won't bounce."

Fact is, faith is fact.

Also, one must bear in mind that if you have not had my experience, you error is saying that which I have experienced cannot be true.

TF

Renegade50,

I take no issue your statement of belief but RM is replying based on a "biblical" perspective. A question of "what the bible teaches" is not the same as "is the bible the word of god."

TF

That was even embarrassing to read.



eta: That there IS faith is a fact. What the faith in steeped in, is not, necessarily.

???

Faith is not fact? My faith is not fact? The "fact" that faith is real is not correct?

We must be talking apples and oranges somehow.

TF

Oh, I get it.... one's faith must be placed in that which is real and true. "Belief" does not create truth. Is that right? If so, I stand corrected.

TF

Missed it twice. I'll put that on my explanation, not your understanding.


That you HAVE faith is a fact. What you BELIEVE in is not NECESSARILY fact.

What you believe in MAY be fact, but simply believing something, does not automatically make it fact.

Better?

my point is that everyones belief is based on what certain people wanted to be read and seen in their versions of bibles thruout mankinds history
old testament wise
new testament wise
dead sea scroll wise
ect ecte ect


how can you toss aside certain texts books and documents and say they aint no good for this branch of christain religon
but yet keep certain texts books and documents for such and such other branch of christain religion

and these decisions were made by men as too what they thought or think gods word should be and put out to beleivers as a whole


kinda leaves a big what if type of scenario
as to the whole entire concept of faith and belief when it has been manipulated by man since its inception

oh I believe their is a god and he is a higher power for sure
im just saying that the bible has been manipulated to suit mans purposes way too much to be an authentic complete and true source document for people to say it is this way or hells highway for ya







p.s.
I was baptized a roman catholic
and that branch of the christain religion sure has some serious issues on its do,s and don't,s versus other branches of christain religons


Q.how did that all happen with offshoots of versions of the bible and versions of christain religons
since the roman catholic church basically started the whole thing after they decided what they wanted and didn't want in their "official bible"












A.man changing stuff plain and simple

There are two sides to every argument and this debate has been historically going on longer than any other... even longer than which came first, the chicken or the egg..

It's kinda like a game of poker... there is no middle ground... Either you're all in or you fold.

One either believes or one doesn't and in an individual's mind it's not likely to change but does happen from time to time.

I think calling beating on the dead horse is appropriate here, unless some are just working to keep their arguing skills from getting rusty

g

Prove this please.

"The quantity of New Testament manuscripts is unparalleled in ancient literature. There are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts, about 8,000 Latin manuscripts, and another 1,000 manuscripts in other languages (Syriac, Coptic, etc.). In addition to this extraordinary number, there are tens of thousands of citations of New Testament passages by the early church fathers. In contrast, the typical number of existing manuscript copies for any of the works of the Greek and Latin authors, such as Plato, Aristotle, Caesar, or Tacitus, ranges from one to 20."

THE QUALITY OF MANUSCRIPTS

Because of the great reverence the Jewish scribes held toward the Scriptures, they exercised extreme care in making new copies of the Hebrew Bible. The entire scribal process was specified in meticulous detail to minimize the possibility of even the slightest error. The number of letters, words, and lines were counted, and the middle letters of the Pentateuch and the Old Testament were determined. If a single mistake was discovered, the entire manuscript would be destroyed.

As a result of this extreme care, the quality of the manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible surpasses all other ancient manuscripts. The 1947 discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls provided a significant check on this, because these Hebrew scrolls antedate the earliest Masoretic Old Testament manuscripts by about 1,000 years. But in spite of this time span, the number of variant readings between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic Text is quite small, and most of these are variations in spelling and style.

THE TIME SPAN OF MANUSCRIPTS

Apart from some fragments, the earliest Masoretic manuscript of the Old Testament is dated at A.D. 895. This is due to the systematic destruction of worn manuscripts by the Masoretic scribes. However, the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls dating from 200 B.C. to A.D. 68 drastically reduced the time span from the writing of the Old Testament books to our earliest copies of them.

The time span of the New Testament manuscripts is exceptional. The manuscripts written on papyrus came from the second and third centuries A.D. The John Rylands Fragment (P52) of the Gospel of John is dated at A.D. 117-38, only a few decades after the Gospel was written. The Bodmer Papyri are dated from A.D. 175-225, and the Chester Beatty Papyri date from about A.D. 250. The time span for most of the New Testament is less than 200 years (and some books are within 100 years) from the date of authorship to the date of our earliest manuscripts. This can be sharply contrasted with the average gap of over 1,000 years between the composition and the earliest copy of the writings of other ancient authors.

To summarize the bibliographic test, the Old and New Testaments enjoy far greater manuscript attestation in terms of quantity, quality, and time span than any other ancient documents.

The External Test

Because the Scriptures continually refer to historical events, they are verifiable; their accuracy can be checked by external evidence. The chronological details in the prologue to Jeremiah (1:1-3) and in Luke 3:1-2 illustrate this. Ezekiel 1:2 allows us to date Ezekiel's first vision of God to the day (July 31, 592 B.C.).

The historicity of Jesus Christ is well-established by early Roman, Greek, and Jewish sources, and these extrabiblical writings affirm the major details of the New Testament portrait of the Lord. The first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus made specific references to John the Baptist, Jesus Christ, and James in his Antiquities of the Jews. In this work, Josephus gives us many background details about the Herods, the Sadducees and Pharisees, the high priests like Annas and Caiaphas, and the Roman emperors mentioned in the gospels and Acts.

We find another early secular reference to Jesus in a letter written a little after A.D. 73 by an imprisoned Syrian named Mara Bar-Serapion. This letter to his son compares the deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras, and Christ. Other first- and second-century writers who mention Christ include the Roman historians Cornelius Tacitus (Annals) and Suetonius (Life of Claudius, Lives of the Caesars), the Roman governor Pliny the Younger (Epistles), and the Greek satirist Lucian (On the Death of Peregrine). Jesus is also mentioned a number of times in the Jewish Talmud.

The Old and New Testaments make abundant references to nations, kings, battles, cities, mountains, rivers, buildings, treaties, customs, economics, politics, dates, etc. Because the historical narratives of the Bible are so specific, many of its details are open to archaeological investigation. While we cannot say that archaeology proves the authority of the Bible, it is fair to say that archaeological evidence has provided external confirmation of hundreds of biblical statements. Higher criticism in the 19th century made many damaging claims that would completely overthrow the integrity of the Bible, but the explosion of archaeological knowledge in the 20th century reversed almost all of these claims. Noted archaeologists such as William F. Albright, Nelson Glueck, and G. Ernest Wright developed a great respect for the historical accuracy of the Scriptures as a result of their work.

Out of the multitude of archaeological discoveries related to the Bible, consider a few examples to illustrate the remarkable external substantiation of biblical claims. Excavations at Nuzi (1925-41), Mari (discovered in 1933), and Alalakh (1937-39; 1946-49) provide helpful background information that fits well with the Genesis stories of the patriarchal period. The Nuzi tablets and Mari letters illustrate the patriarchal customs in great detail, and the Ras Shamra tablets discovered in ancient Ugarit in Syria shed much light on Hebrew prose and poetry and Canaanite culture. The Ebla tablets discovered recently in northern Syria also affirm the antiquity and accuracy of the Book of Genesis.

Some scholars once claimed that the Mosaic Law could not have been written by Moses, because writing was largely unknown at that time and because the law code of the Pentateuch was too sophisticated for that period. But the codified Laws of Hammurabi (ca. 1700 B.C.), the Lipit-Ishtar code (ca. 1860 B.C.), the Laws of Eshnunna (ca. 1950 B.C.), and the even earlier Ur-Nammu code have refuted these claims.

tell us what happened when the romans got ahold of all of this source document materials and passed on knowledge and how the "official 1st bibles"(state sponsored of course) got made into all its different off shoots and versions of christainity since the council of rome, constantine1 and further on down the line

post up some stuff on how different branches of christainity started and why and why different bibles contain certain books and not other and vice versa

of real interest to me is the Mormons
gold tablets/wives/young women
and basically the book of mormom and how that got made


then lets throw in the torah and qouran


all interlinked by people recoginized in each religons text and history

how does that all come about


it is nice that the ancient scholars paid attention to detail and precise content

unfortunately after christainity became the official state religion of rome and the western world

those people that followed up to this current day did not follow things to gods precise letter and intent at all.







keep on reading
I suggest you read up on lost books of the bible and why they have no presence in the bible
and who and or whom behind the scenes made or helped influence those decisions being made

many of them lost books are ot stuff and nt stuff
some of them are bogus ones that kooks made up and were disproved.

All that means bupkis after a couple thousand years of editing by ambitious men.

There aint even two bible historians that agree with each other, lots of if,and,buts..Because its written in circle talk.

Ironic how no one is arguing about the validity of these other ancient works, only the Bible, the best supported ancient documents in the history of man. Yes, ironic.

If the accuracy of the Bible is in doubt, it's a choice not to see the truth right in front of you.

Considering how much of those authors works were lost when the Library of Alexandria burned, it's an apples/oranges comparison.

Of course, there are myriad texts from the Hindus as well, but curiously I don't see you citing there numbers.

When the only sectors of writing allowed in the West for centuries were religious in nature, it's no wonder that the copious religious texts exist. All you could write were documents supporting religion, and those that could write at all were religious scribes. Res ipsa loquitur.

You guys ever hear of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

When you meet Jesus, you will not be able to look Him in the face or speak.

You now, all the back and forth trying to prove and dissuade is pointless. It is a matter of faith, after all. And "Faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things not seen". A person either believes or not.

You dodged out on your own post. Whether you put a lot or zero stock in the Bible, I responded to your false argument about forgiveness from God. I showed your error from Jesus and suggested you check for future reference so you don't make the same mistake again.

The idea the Bible has been cut and pasted shows willful ignorance on your part. The Old Testament was translated from Hebrew into Latin 285 years before Jesus was born. Learn about the Dead Sea scrolls.

This from the person who doesn't believe in carbon-14 dating, and does believe that humans strolled around with dinosaurs on a planet that is only 4,000 years old. Oh, and believes in not getting paid for the work he's done but continues to show up for work every day, because ... well, who the hell knows why on that one.

Priceless.

I do my level best not to consort with Arabs now, much less when I'm dead.

Have met some fine Persian folks. I don't think Jesus is Persian though.

Spiritual blindness is a baffling thing, but not unexpected or unexplained.

Romans 11:8 ESV

As it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ESV

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Ephesians 2:2 English Standard Version (ESV)

2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

Romans 8:7-8English Standard Version (ESV)

7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Matthew 13:15English Standard Version (ESV)

15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

Exactly who are you accusing of this, FB2?

Since you don't quote or explain what you are referring to, how can I know how to answer?

Spiritual blindness maybe? If so... 1 John 4:3

but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Let me try again. Exactly who are you accusing of this, FB2?

Quoting Scripture is not an answer. You have some in mind, so speak it.

What one talks about the guy living inside of whale for 3 days? Always liked that one.

This^^^

It's not my job to condemn anyone for not believing. I was an unbeliever once. But I can easily identify what I'm dealing with-

1 John 4:3 English Standard Version (ESV)

3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

Matthew 12:33-37

"Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. "The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.

Galatians 5:19-21

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[a] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

http://rightwingnews.com/democrats/...ic-democrats-skipping-netanyahus-speech/

No, that would fulfill the prophecy of John 12:40.

Like this one, 4


http://therefinersfire.org/israel_born_in_one_day.htm

Fireball also fails to mention that to achieve those numbers you must include fragments of manuscripts, many as small as a post card. The number of complete manuscripts is much smaller.

I guess im kind of like God in that i wouldnt give stiff necked non-believers with little faith specifice times and dates either, preferring they fall while leaning on their own understanding.

Yeah, that's it, you're kind of like God.

I heard He said we were created in His image, Steel.

You're dancing. You've made a veiled accusation, now come clean with it.

There ya go! Amen Geezer!

Dayom, 4, you're now arguing with HIM instead of him.

No, I'm reasoning.

Not sure why it's hard to understand what I said. ???

Also not sure why it's so important to you to try and trap me in something. Have I been somehow personally offensive?
I already know the gospel is offensive, so maybe that's it. If I have been offensive to you somehow Sean, please accept my apologies. It was not intentional.
I suspect however, that the gospel is that which you rail against.

I'm not trying to trap you. I'm trying to get you to be specific in your claim against someone.

I don't find the Gospel to be offensive. I find many "believers" to be offensive, and contradictory, and hypocritical, and blasphemous, and self-righteous, among other things.

I have not railed against the Gospel at all, and if it's me you're targeting, you're way, way off base.

Not even close, Doc. For an eye specialist, you're pretty damn blind some times.

Are you sure he's and eye doc?

The other night didn't he say something about getting up early to chop ice off the cattle tanks?

Since we are to take everything in the bible literally, heres a few gems to ponder on.

happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock- Psalm 137:9

I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man she is to keep silent -1 Timothy 2:12

and I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters. -Jeremiah 19:9

She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. Ezekiel 23:20

When two men are fighting and the wife of one of them intervenes to drag her husband clear of his opponent, if she puts out her hand and catches hold of the man by his privates, you must cut off her hand and show her no mercy.Deut. 25:11

“Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.”Genesis 19:8

Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. Genesis 38:

Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you bald head! Go up, you bald head!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youth Kings 2:23

No man whose testicles have been crushed or whose organ has been cut off may become a member of the Assembly of God.Deut. 23:1

And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, “Surely a bloody husband art thou to me” Exodus 4:24

These were the spoils which remained of the plunder taken by the fighting men: 675,000 sheep, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys, and as for persons, 32,000 young women who had had no intercourse with a man" Numbers 31:32

I cant believe people let thier kids read it, then get all riled up over an R movie.

I've read hussler magazines with cleaner content.

Regardless or not the audience believes the crap or not?

Typo. It's the book of Neuteronomy.

One of my favorites.

Murdering children over an insult.

The story of Jonah says God prepared a big fish. If God is God He can do it.

Some who don't want this to be ture say it not.

"The story as reported is that during a whaling expedition off the Falkland Islands, Bartley's boat was attacked by the whale and he landed inside the whale's mouth. He survived the ordeal and was carved out of the stomach by his peers when they, not knowing he was inside, caught and began skinning the whale because of the hot weather which would have rotted the whale meat. It was said that he was in the whale for 15 hours and it was also said that his skin had been bleached by the gastric juices, and that he was blind the rest of his life. He was, however, supposed to have returned to work within three weeks in some accounts. He died 18 years later and his tombstone in Gloucester says 'James Bartley- a modern day Jonah'"[1][2]

You sure thats how the verse goes ringman?

antelope_sniper fails to grasp the fact they exist and support each other, unlike the dirth of manuscript evidence for other writers of antiquity.

Here's an answer from one of out .com friends.

24hourcampfire

Originally Posted By antlers
If ones personal faith and belief in The Messiah is threatened by what others say or believe, or by what ancient manuscripts contain...then maybe the problem isn't with what others say or believe, or with what ancient manuscripts contain.
Answered by Doc Rocket

Well, you're kind of right about this, on a basic level.

However, it appears you are not up to speed on the history surrounding the Canon of New Testament scripture, nor the Judeo-Christian tradition of debate over minutiae! Don't worry, you're not alone. I doubt that 1 Christian in 10 in the USA knows even the basic history of the First Century Church. Nonbelievers, maybe 1 in 1000.

The first thing, i.e., why are we Christians so quick to argue about What others say and believe about the Christian faith, is because what we ALL say about our faith matters to EVERY Christian believer. The traditions of Judaism, outlined in the Torah and multiple rabbinical texts, argue that discussion of every new viewpoint on Scripture is not just desirable, but a mandatory exercise in the Jewish religion. And Christianity, which is nothing more nor less than the fulfillment of the Jewish religion in the person, life works, and teachings of Jesus, has followed that tradition for millenia.

So that's why we argue about it. It's our tradition. If you don't like our tradition, butt out and go take care of your own traditions. I'm not being mean or angry here, I'm just sayin'.

The second thing: why does every new "ancient" text or artifact that pops up stir up immediate opposition by so many Christians? Well, it's because our faith is founded on a very carefully selected set of writings from the first century A.D. While some non-Christians (i.e., outsiders who don't "get" our traditions) may take delight in promoting "new" texts that appear to contradict the Canon of Scripture--because they're mostly ch!tt-disturbers, in my experience--these texts are almost always the same old crap that's been popping up since the 2nd or 3rd century, and which has been cataloged in the Pulp Fiction aisle of the theological library for the better part of 2000 years.

99% of Christians are largely ignorant of the history of the early Church, from the time of the Acts of the Apostles to the Fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. This was a time of enormous expansion of the Church, but the very cool part about it was that while the number of Christians exploded over the course of a few decades, the geographic expansion was very small. This meant that pretty much EVERYone knew somebody who actually knew, was taught by, and witnessed the miracles of Jesus. And the Jews, who comprised the early majority of Christians, were/are real sticklers for THE TRUTH.

This means nobody could bullsh!t about the Gospel of Christ. Posers were recognized and cast out immediately. You couldn't hide behind an internet handle in those days. You were either the real deal, or you got stoned to death. Sometimes you even got stoned to death if you WERE the real deal, so being a poser wasn't exactly a high-paying gig, you know what I'm saying? Oh, and keep in mind that in the First Century it wasn't like today, when any schmoe can write a book and publish it online... if you wrote a book then, the only way it got published was if other people agreed that it was really good stuff, and copied it out by hand for other folks to read.

So the people who actually wrote down the life, words, teachings, and miracles of Jesus were guys who actually knew him. If someone didn't really know him and TELL THE TRUTH as it was known by hundreds of first-hand witnesses, their scribblings would've been ignored. If not burned and the author stoned to death. By the early 2nd Century, the de facto Canon of Scripture we know as the New Testament had been pretty much agreed upon by the vast majority of Church leaders and scholars, based on a very tight-knit history they all shared.

Mark wrote his Gospel first, probably within about 20 years of Jesus' death and resurrection. John's gospel was probably written within a few years of the Fall of Jerusalem, Matthew and Luke somewhere in between. Lots of other folks wrote down their memories of the events, too, but for the most part these were ignored by the Church because the majority of the Churches thought they were incomplete, contained too many untruths, or were flawed in other ways. The four main Gospels were endorsed and widely circulated as a result.

Now, there were some dissenters (as there always are in human affairs) and they started up their own versions of church that were anywhere from slightly wonky to batsh!t-crazy. And by the early 3rd Century, enough of these outliers existed that the orthodox Church had no choice but to lay down the law--in keeping with ancient Judeo-Christian traditions of heterodoxy--and they held a series of councils in which the majority of Christian leaders and scholars said what was the truest material in keeping with the historical writings of Church Fathers. All of batsh!t-crazy gospels were ch!tt-canned at that time, but all manner of non-believers keep bringing them up as "proof" against the Christian religion.

So that's why we care about somebody resurrecting (pun intended) some piece of batsh!t-crazy "Christian" writing from the 6th Century. Our forefathers worked really, really hard to clean up the true story about Jesus for us. They paid for it with their blood and their very lives, and we owe them a debt for that.

And that's why we tend to be derisive and dismissive about "ancient" texts that get "discovered" that were written at least 500 years after the Biblical texts we endorse. It's part of our tradition.

People who aren't Bible-believing Christians can say and think what they like for themselves, but they can't expect us not to defend our religion, our tradition, our history is something precious to us, and we don't care to have fools who are ignorant of our tradition and our history to pass off their ignorance as valid opinion.

Jonah 1:15-17King James Version (KJV)

"15 So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.

16 Then the men feared the Lord exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the Lord, and made vows.

17 Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights."

Neat interpretation tho ringman..nothing gets lost in translation i'm sure.

Children of satan are more dangerous than young tapeworms, or the brainwashed of islamic terrorists.

You still refuse to answer the question directly: who were you accusing?

I was elk hunting once in Colorado when a blizzard hit. A couple lost on the mountain i was hunting on spent the night in their horses an survived it.

rosco1,

Why do you try to disparage the story? There is no interpretation. I accept as though it was a story you or anyone else told me.

If God is God He could an did prepare a "great fish" and whether Jonah was dead or alive makes no difference God spewed him out three days later.

It sounds like the hunters survived but the horses didn't. In the Jonah story all survived.

Anyone can exhibit these traits at any given time, pagans or christians, myself included. We need to rely on the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit to overcome with any consistency. When we are outside the will of God, we look just like anyone. We are all fallen, some saved from it, some not. But still, it's a daily battle we can win. Regardless, we are forgiven.

*In retrospect, that's probably not worded exactly right. Mercy please.

Romans 11:8

As it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

2 Corinthians 4:3-4

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Ephesians 2:2

2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

Romans 8:7-8

7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Matthew 13:15

For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Well at least you admit you want non-believers to burn rather than be saved, which I've noted among who call themselves Christian but rarely hear admitted.

Does God want people to be saved, or not? Is there a definitive answer to that? Because I've seen plenty of contradictory scripture thrown out about it, and I'd like to hear your thoughts.

So, instead of answering the question directly, you continue to quote Scripture and speak in riddles?

SMH.

There is no evidence from the text they qualified as "Children of Satan". But it's good to know you approve murdering children over the slightest insult.

It's not a riddle, you've just got your hackles up thinking I was referring to you. I've already explained there's no need to feel slighted from me.

I have no hackles up at all, and I have not inferred that you were referencing me or anyone else specifically. I stated that if it were me, that you were off base. You certainly have made it clear that you were referencing someone (or several), though, and I've asked you several times to simply speak that plainly. You continually refuse to do so.

Your take on the scripture I posted and calling it a "riddle" does tend to substantiate 1 Corinthians 1:18

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

If I was, what would change? The message remains the same regardless, so it would be irrelevant unless you had a design for my answer.

You refuse to speak plainly in answer to a question. That's the proof, and there's no riddle there.

Wrong. You refuse to speak plainly, and that answer hasn't changed.

He prefers all be saved, but if they wont listen to dust off yourself from them.

I guess He figures freedom of choice id pretty important. You feel otherwise? Isis thinks coercion is mobetter.

Sorry friend, at this we will have to agree to either allow one another quarter or not. No offense intended, but judging by your actions and apparent agitation I simply find it suspicious that you are obsessed with who I might be referencing. I think it's a distraction at best, a trap at worst, and either way irrelevant to the content of the dialog.

Again, not wishing offense, but that's my take on it.

If I understand this verse literally it tells me that God made a whole bunch of people pre destined by him to be non believers blind and deaf to his word. Did he do this just so he could have a bunch of folks he could toss in the fire. Wouldn't that make him a psychopath.

bushrat



You anthropomorphising God. God says He made the wicked for the day of destruction. That does not make him a psychopath. It makes Him the potter and us the pot. Most of us can't humble ourselves. That is THE prerequisite to accepting God.

I make a lot of muzzle brakes. Some I like and some I don't. One difference between God and me is I can't make my works alive. He can and does! We dispose of our rejects in different ways.

Actually, if He created us all in His image and wants to save us all, yet created some specifically to torture and punish when He could have (and says elsewhere that He did) create us all to be the object of his unimaginable love and to share with us all eternity in His presence and His love, then yes, that would make Him a pyschopath or inconsistent in His message. Or, our translation of that message false and twisted for some reason of men (hmmm, the furtherance of a religion of men for power and greed, perhaps?). There really aren't any other options.

Why question mere mortals as to why God works in the mysterious ways that he does?

Are we questioning God, or the men who create religions and all the translations of God's Word for greed and power for themselves?

Translated into English: Some of that stuff just does not deserve to be believed.

I've viewed the thread as a bombardment to believers as to why does God do this, do that or the other, or don't do this, do that or the other. Nothing more.

No one can answer your examination as only God knows... I am admitting we do have a few on here that will in fact take a stab at answering why God does what he does..

Translation?



Oh, we certainly do have those. They are rather devout "Christians", too. Unfortunately, their interpretations all clash with one another. There's that whole clarity thing, which is abundantly clear.

Believe it or not.. Your choice.

Just how are these "prophesies"?
To list a few.

Priest. Lots of priests
King. Lots of kings
His zeal for God. Could describe a few here.
He pre-existed creation. That is a statement isn't it?
entered Jerusalem on a donkey. Either he rode or walked.
betrayed by a friend. Common.
accused by false witness. Common.
Mocked. Lots of mocking going on 24hr.
People stared at him. Who doesn't get stared at.
Became very thirsty. How did this make the list? Who doesn't?
Heart Broken. Common.
Raised from the dead. So some say.
ascended to heaven. So some say.
seated beside God. So some say.
All these "prophecies" and not one mentions his name?

So are you admitting you've chosen to believe things that don't deserve to be believed?

For some of us, that wouldn't be called a choice, it would be called ignorance.

For sure, by unbelievers, AS.

You are always free to take that first step into eternity and ask Him to come into your heart and set you free if He really exists.

Hey, if you ask and He doesnt, you have lost nothing.

Short answer, sure! Believers have suffered alot worse. I may even turn the other cheek, ... once.

Why do you assume I've never been to church or never tried any of these things?

GeoW.

I give you credit for standing up and owning it.

I disagree with this statement, made so often here. Belief is not simply a choice. People believe things for all sorts of reasons, often irrational ones. However, they have some sort of reason for believing. You cannot simply choose to believe something that you find unbelievable. Could you believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny right now, if you wanted to? No, your mind will not accept that. You could claim belief and act like you believed, which still wouldn't change the fact that you don't believe.

You study a theory or an idea, and depending on the information and evidence you discover, you either believe it or you don't. Its not a decision, it's simply what happens in your mind. You can choose how you respond to your belief(or lack thereof) but you can't choose whether to believe it or not.

There are many things I'd like to believe but simpy cannot, because I haven't seen sufficient evidence to allow my mind to believe it. There's things I wish I didn't believe, but I've seen too much evidence to not believe it.

Its very easy to condemn someone when you can simply say "they made a choice, let them deal with the consequences", and people do so love to condemn others. Its becomes more difficult to condemn someone when you realize that they are not simply choosing to believe differently than you, but have had a different life with different experiences that have led them to different beliefs.

If you were sincere in asking Him to come into your heart and He didnt, AS it's a situation of which i am sincerely sorry to hear.

Not possible as I understand it.

Amen.

Doc, there's not reason to feel sorry for me. As a natural skeptic, I'm more comfortable with a difficult truth then a comforting lie.

The Universe and our own biology are in a conspiracy to kill us, and eventually they will win. It doesn't matter if I like it or not, it's the truth. By knowing this truth, I can make more informed decisions regarding how I choose to spend my time on this earth. Perhaps this means I choose not to live in hurricane zones or on flood plains, and when I get sick I go to a doctor for treatment instead of a priest for prayers.

It's the only possibility, because no gods exist.

The only way you can intelligently say that is if you knew everything about everything and everywhere; which you don't. Thus you are displaying great arrogance.

So, the way you figure it, how many exist, one, or more then one?

My prayer is that you could meet someone full of God's love,and that you would know and understand that it was really God that caused them to love that way and made the difference in their life.A single profound experience is worth more than all the words we can type.

My best to you my friend. Somehow I think you are seeking and would love to find something real. I truly hope you can find what you need.

Many playing the part of a victim here... I haven't condemned anyone, yet you, xxclaro, say this;

"Its very easy to condemn someone when you can simply say "they made a choice, let them deal with the consequences", and people do so love to condemn others. Its becomes more difficult to condemn someone when you realize that they are not simply choosing to believe differently than you, but have had a different life with different experiences that have led them to different beliefs. "?

Your choice. I condemn no one. Matters not to me if you can deal with the consequences or not. You ain't got this Cracker to blame.

What would you know about it? I never saw you down there. That's the one thing most every one who spouts off about CATC has in common.

RH
I've dated my share of good Christian girls.
What you describe happened in detail 30 some years ago.
As for my search, yes I am continuously searching for knowledge and truth. Consequently, I've very comfortable with what I've found. It seem that what I need is different from what you need, but that's the great think about living in a country with an anti-establishment clause. I can follow the truth where ever it leads.

So, no condemnation, it's just a threat?

Maybe you do, maybe you don't, I'm just saying people love to condemn others. Its a very common human trait, not confined to religion. I suppose its a way of feeling better about oneself by finding fault with someone else's actions, being able to say "I'd never do that, therefore I'm superior". Not accusing anyone specifically, just saying its what people do. I know I've caught myself doing it often enough.

I don't really see anyone playing a victim here, just a discussion of idea's with differing points of view being offered. Actually I think its been surprisingly civil so far.

Now as to your last sentence "matters not to me if you can deal with the consequences or not", I find that interesting. It just seems kind of un-Christ like, for lack of a better term. I'm not asking anyone to be too concerned about which consequences I may or may not face, it just kind of conflicts with what I was taught in church, to love your neighbor as yourself and so on.

It was unChrist like. I am a sinner. No denying that.

Old say'n goes, You can lead a horse to water.. horse best drink or thirst to death.. out of my hands.

There's nothing to figure. Your question is a silly one. You would realize it if you gave it much thought. There can be only one Infinite.

So your answer is one.

I could list 1000 different gods from a thousand different religions, and you have just acknowledged you do not believe in any of them.

So on this subject, the only difference between you and me, is I go one God further.

Again you are being silly. It doesn't make any difference how many of anything people believe in or don't believe in. There is only One Infinite. Anything less is, well less; therefore not God.

The difference in you and me is you believe nothing became something and something became conscience containing self replicating systems. I on the other hand I logically believe nothing does nothing because there is nothing to do anything with. Since the universe appears infinite from our perspective, this then demands an Infinite Intelligent Energy Source.

See the xxclaro statements in bold. I find them to be correct. Note that there has been mention made of the act of the Holy Spirit in the calling of a man to belief. The conviction of the Holy Spirit can be acted on or can be rejected. Seems to me that "belief" in Jesus comes after the "enlightenment, or conviction or calling or the showing about Jesus" of the Holy Spirit.

TF

Been there done that, why is it so apparent to some and so elusive to others.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

There goes that superiority complex again, and the contradiction between wanting to have a relationship with all and save all, and the "oh, schit, I just give a damn about a special few".

Ergo, why religion is a fool's game made of and by men and corrupt to the core.

The "special few" are not created special. They are those who accept God's invitation.

Nice try Sean

Nope, not at all. Read back through this thread. It appears that the Christians can't even get their own story straight on what the Word means.

turn a blind eye to fact............
the bible has been selectfully cut copied and pasted from all source materials by those who wanted it that way(man) since its inception

that is a fact............
you need to do some research............................
and if ya still want to preach facts about the bible

please explain
something extremely simple
why do why have a king james bible and why do have the NIV bible
and why are they different in their context
and who made them that way


god made 2 different ones magically??????????




nuff said
im outta this...............................

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Directly contradictory with only a few chosen. Translation not required, because the Word of God is right there for us to read in plain text.

Unless, of course, the Word of God has been corrupted by man for greed and power through the promulgation of religion.

This philosophical argument, a Thomist and Merton philosophy, still withstands the test of time. Yes, one God, an infinite Intelligent source.

Nicely played.

It's fairly obvious that Heaven has an IQ maximum of 75.

I no longer post anything for your benefit, since you have clearly made up your mind, but for any that are truly seeking I will try. One's that you don't discourage so badly that will still ask that is. I wonder why it is so important to you to fight against God? I wonder who wins? I thought you said you weren't offended by the gospel, yet you fight against it so vehemently?? Leads me to believe you are not being honest about your position or your intentions. Like I said earlier, a man is known by the fruit. The words out of a mans mouth are the overflow of his heart.

Romans 8:29-32

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?


God freely gives all things, proven by his desire for and path outlined for salvation. God withholds nothing, so why be in the dark? Why wonder? Why postulate and scheme and plot and plan? Why not just ask?

Matthew 7:7

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

You assume that I fight against God? Again, you assume wrong and badly so. Why it remains so important to you to paint it that way and to assume (wrongly again) that you know what I have decided and why is quite puzzling. I am more than comfortable enough in my beliefs to question things. Are you not comfortable enough in yours to have some things questioned? Must you always resort to casting aspersions upon the questioner, assuming them to be at war with God and decidedly against Him?

Fireball has never been accused of being sharp, regardless of his pointy head.

zactly

now I am surely done with this thread





thank god

renegade50,



Learn about the Dead Sea Scrolls.



You are not showing much intelligence here. We have different Bibles because different publishers want to make money. Obviously you have not read them. If you did you would not make the statement They differ in context.

Words have different meanings, and the use of different words can and does change context.

Thank you, though, for admitting that the multitude of Bibles is not about spreading the words, but raking in the dough. That's in keeping with man's religion instead of God's Word.

You have interrogated every participant on this this thread regarding his/her belief. We have been as honest with our answers as possible.

Now you state your being comfortable with your beliefs to question things.

Would you mind sharing your beliefs with those of us that you have interrogated, or badgered may be a better word, since the beginning of this thread?

What do YOU believe?

A statement from you will suffice... another question, not.

Door ain't opening. Does that mean I got to kick the door in break and enter

Crickets on that one. I'm thinking 4ager is just an antagonist, that doesn't offer much, but debate for the sake of debate, rather than knowledge shared and gained.

Keep asking. If you want to know, he will respond. If you ask to test God, expect nothing.

The devils desire for you includes:

Defeat (1 Pet. 5:8)
Failure (John 10:10)
Worry-fear (2 Tim. 1:7)
Jealousy (James 3:14-15)
Bondage (Eph. 2:1-2
Discouragement (Ps. 42:9-11)

Oh... Aren't you cute? Now run along and let the big people talk.

Sorry, I missed this one until just now.

As I've said before, what I believe and why is between me and God. I don't evangelize my beliefs, nor do I cotton to some man-made religion and accept it as "true".

I've not interrogated anyone, but if you wish, I can certain start. It's a game I've played before and rather successfully. Badgering can come after that.

Now, if you would please show me exactly where I've started questioning another person's beliefs, vs what another person would be insinuating about my beliefs or someone else's, or if you could show me where I have questioned what they believe vs instead the texts that they quote and the attitude they present, I'd be happy to play that game.

It continues to appear that many are not nearly as comfortable in their own beliefs as they portray and any questioning of the inconsistencies in texts, or the fact that belief is not fact itself, lead them to apoplexy. See the insinuation that I am merely an agent provocateur and nothing more. That's simply false. I do question, but I do not question merely to incite riot or discord. The questioning of inconsistencies and the presentation of alternative beliefs, along with the refutation of belief as fact, is obviously troubling though it is not for reasons that lie with me. Perhaps those troubled have greater questions themselves than they are comfortable asking; I don't know.

Why you continue to attempt to insult me, time and again, is beyond me. You continue to be wrong, as well.

If you feel insulted, why? You have led me and the others to this conclusion by your actions, not by our baseless assessment. I don't see people calling me a skydiver, but if I posted like I was, the inference would be made.

If you're insinuating that I am simply here as an antagonist, is it meant as a compliment? I think not. You never did come clean on whom it was you were alluding to yesterday.

Why do mere questions vex you so, especially when no harm or insult is intended by them?

For sure. 4 is a sharp guy who seems to take the point of view that anything is worth arguing about. Maybe he has a history of glory in debate?

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[a] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21

I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

Matthew 10:16

Why?

Another insinuation that my actions will "lead me not to the Kingdom of God"? That's about a 1/2 step below being in league with Luscifer, is it not?

I'm glad I'm a lot more comfortable in my relationship with God than that.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

^^^^^

This, from earlier in the thread.



You Christians are scary.

If you want to keep your beliefs on this issue between you and God, that's your prerogative...and I respect that. But...you have no qualms about voicing and proclaiming your beliefs on most all of the other issues that are discussed here...from politics, to The Civil War, to the legalization of drugs, and even to that NWA dude up in Alaska. Why not voice your beliefs on 'this' issue like you do on all of the other issues where you participate in discussions here...?

Ephesians 4:14
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming.

No "glory" that I can recall, nor any time with a debate team, either.

I figure anything worth knowing or believing is worth constant consideration, reflection, investigation, and questioning. YMMV, obviously, but as a doc, I suspect you do a good bit of that in your field (or, I hope you do at least).

Because he's being disingenuous.

The Bible is useless as a debating tool.

Looks like you would know THAT by now.

WHEN it makes sense, it's only because of the light provided by the Spirit.

Ain't a whole lot of Spirit displayed in this thread.

Because all that schit ain't nearly as important or as personal.

I don't discuss my wife, nor my family life with her, or my kids, or the rest of my family. I don't bring another man's family into things unless he brings them in himself, nor do I bring in his religious beliefs unless he does it.

If I may, how recent was your conversion?

Now you're calling me a liar. There's no getting around that.

You're dead wrong, again, and your petulance is one helluva mark of your "faith". You resort only to quoting Scripture and articulate no answer for yourself. If you were as comfortable in your own beliefs as you like people to believe, you'd speak your own words and you'd not be afraid of mere questions. You sure as Hell wouldn't bear false witness against another, either.

There's a fine Christian, and a real one, that frequents this Board. He and I are very close friends and have had many a conversation about Christianity and God and beliefs. Not once has he cast a stone at me for asking a question, because he knows the questions are not harmful nor intended to be a slight. He's also very comfortable and solid in his relationship with God.

You'd do well to find out who that is and to seek guidance. He's a wise man, and a good man. He's a good Christian, too. You'd learn quite a bit; if you can handle the questions asked.

I've always found this particular topic (the one posed by the OP) to be of no good to anybody, personally. It just brings out the worst in the best of us and makes the worst of us look even worse.

Just my $.02 and guaranteed to be worth every penny paid.

or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God's work--which is by faith.

1 Timothy 1:4

Notice advancing Gods work is by faith? My consolation in all this is that the Word is the sword-

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

hebrews 4:12-13

Thus the reason I'm comfortable with my relationship with God.

You're only making yourself look all the more small and petty, and that's a damned shame. You're a good man, and prior to this I'd thought much more highly of you.

I quote scripture because it is as pure as truth gets. It's not my words, it's Gods Word. If you'd like to argue, take it up with Him. If you are offended, you are offended with Him. If you are angry, you can get angry at Him. If you want answers, you can ask Him. I simply try to provide God's word that addresses your most current beef.

Also, as a believer, I am responsible for the gifts given me. If I do not share what I've been given, I am held accountable for that.

I believe the Words are life. If I do a poor job presenting Gods Word, not my word, Gods Word, what kind of friend can I be to anybody? If I truly believe that there is a God, and that He provided the answers to so many of your questions, but I didn't give you those words, but instead argued, what have I done to help you?

You are free to choose, I was, and I chose to walk away from God for 33 years. In the time of my complete and total rebellion, he gave me many small promptings, little glitches in my heart, tinges of regret, thoughts of "Oh, I knew better", until I responded. He never gave up on me, even while I was His enemy He sought me. Believe me, I did a real good job being Gods enemy.

To answer your question add, I'm 49 now, so 16 years. Do I sense a passing judgement coming? No matter, I wish no harm.

To the rest, I'll continue to piss you off by posting scripture, because I believe it and only it will cut to the core of your questions and provide your answers. Anything I could offer is only argumentative. Remember one last thing if you find yourself agitated at me posting scripture.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

If you refuse to answer my question please don't question me or my faith.
I don't play games either and you have not been made a victim by anyone other than yourself.

As old hickory head Bill O'Reilly would say, I'll give you the last word.

I should add, the solution is to ask for the Holy Spirit. With it, you will get what you lack.

You quote Scripture because you, yourself, are not comfortable answering a question.

If I want to seek guidance from His Word, I have several Bibles rather near by and can look for those passages myself. I did not ask for, nor do I need, you to think for me on what is an answer to a question I'm not asking of God. You don't piss me off by quoting Scripture. You avoid answering questions by quoting Scripture and then feign offense and victimhood when called on it.

I also didn't ask you when or why you found God. That's none of my business or my concern.

As I said earlier, I had previously thought much better of you than this. Because of your own insecurity in your beliefs, you've called me a liar (disingenuous, technically). You've insinuated that I'm at war with God, that I'm nearly in league with Satan, and that I'm doomed to miss out on the Kingdom of God. You won't admit these things, directly, but it's fairly clear. All this, because you're too uncomfortable with someone who actually asks questions about contradictory passages and states that belief is not fact. You can profess that you find His Word to the be Word of Life and infallible, but your actions tell a far different story. Tell me again which one of us is truly comfortable in his relationship with God? Res ipsa loquitur.

If you don't like the question, don't answer. I've not questioned you about what you believe or why, and you can't prove that I have. I asked you questions about what YOU put out there yourself. If you don't want a question asked, don't put something out there for someone to ask about in the first place.

Not lacking on this end. Take your own advice, perhaps?

Agreed. It 'is' important and personal...for many.

But it's a thread 'about' religious beliefs, and you participate on other threads about religious beliefs too. I'm just tryin' to understand where you're comin' from, as you don't seem to mind discussing other people's religious beliefs, just not your own...?

How I look is not too much a concern at the moment. I have tried to be faithful to tell what I know. Hopefully that's why you say I'm a good man. Otherwise, if you think I'm a good man, you'd be wrong. I know my tendencies better than you do!
Don't misunderstand me, I'm proud, and think highly of myself, more than I should. That's my cross to bear, and I hate it. But I see what a wretch I am w/o God helping me. I fail, I try, I fail, I kill Christ on the cross again, every day, all by myself. I don't have to try hard to remember 33 years living as I liked to know what I was. Why God would offer me anything is a great mystery. There are certainly more deserving people in the world. Kind people, generous people, gentle people. He loves me, that's my only answer. But why?

Because Jesus made it possible for Him to look away from my horrible, sinful nature and embrace me, since I first embraced Jesus' completed work on the cross on my behalf.

I have only asked questions about what another has put out there themselves in the first place. If they don't want something questioned, they probably ought not make it public.

My dear departed friend Mickey Coleman was one of the most devout, honest Christian men I've ever known. I never, once, saw him evangelize about his faith, but you knew it was there. To him, it was personal and it was sacred. The only thing that mattered to him was his relationship with God. I respected that, and we talked about it on more than a few occasions. There are several others here who are good friends and who share a lot in Mickey's traits on this. We've had numerous religious and philosophical discussions; each asking questions but none evangelizing. They also don't preach here and put their faith on display like some peacock with painted feathers covering up a common chicken's ass, either.

Honest advice: get over yourself.

That's not an insult. Look at what you wrote and how and where you put all the emphasis. You do nothing, every day, except think about you. Get over yourself.

That's an accurate description. I'll own that. I offer you nothing good of myself. Any word from me is just an argument waiting to happen. If you want to talk Savage 99's I can maybe help you, but that's about it.

Whoa fella!! When you force someone to explain themselves don't you think you should expect to hear their perspective? After all, that's what you're screaming for!!!

This is why I quote scripture. Take it up with God and leave me out of it.

Your's is not the only feathered ass around here.

Quit playing victim and get over yourself. Really. If your relationship with God is all about not being worthy and how you fail constantly, that schit ain't healthy and that's no relationship with anyone or anything worth having, and it damn sure ain't anything like a healthy relationship with God that I've witnessed before. I guarantee you Mickey wasn't like that with God, nor are many others.

I talk about scripture, you're mad about that. Someone asks about your beliefs, you're not down with that. I finally address your questions by explaining myself, you tell me to get over myself, that my focus is on me. I say fine, i'm a chickens ass, you're still bitching.

Go figure.

You missed the point. Completely.

I'm not missing the big picture. Which brings me full circle to a bunch of scriptures I quoted earlier, but that would be a complete waste of time to regurgitate. Let's try this one instead-

Matthew 7:6

Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.


See what I mean about the Bible having so many answers to life's difficult situations? If only everyone read it.

[ uke 11:5-10 ESV / 34 helpful votes

And he said to them, “Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves, for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; and he will answer from within, ‘Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything’? I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs. And

I think questions are good.

Some folks here feel it's OK for them to voice their opinions on, and express their own beliefs, regarding 'religion' and/or their relationship with God. It doesn't 'always' mean they're 'evangelizing' or 'preaching' or putting their faith on display. They're simply voicing their opinion and expressing their beliefs on this particular issue...in the same way that we all voice our opinions and express our beliefs on all of the other 'issues' that we discuss here. If someone voices their opinion and expresses their beliefs on slavery or politics...it's OK, even though others might disagree with their 'stance' on the issue. But it seems to be 'different' for many here when the 'issue' being discussed is religion or people's personal religious beliefs and/or opinions. It seems as though it's OK to discuss anything here...anything...'except' people's feelings and beliefs regarding God, or their perception of Him, or their relationship with Him.

Oh the irony.

Lies.

Is it your business why I am selling off guns? No.

Did you send me a private message asking about my personal reasons for doing it? yes.

And was I open and forthright with you, a complete stranger, about my personal reasons for doing that? Yes

So you can hide your personal life, but be prepared to be called a hypocrite for it. In this case, you are lying.

I may be wrong but I do no think anyone on either side of this issue will convince the other side they are correct.

This^^^.

If you didn't like the question, you didn't have to answer. I asked that out of concern.

Now, this is twice you have called me a liar without basis and being completely off base.

Someone asked the question, and I gave them the answer. I didn't bring it up, and I won't, and I don't have to answer the question any differently. You could have chosen to say "it's personal and I would rather not discuss it", and that would have been your choice. You chose not do to do so.

There's no hypocrisy there, and there are no lies there.

You're completely bent out of shape because you missed the point of what I was saying, and you're uncomfortable with questions about topics that YOU brought up and brought out. From this, you accuse, false, another of lying, of being at war with God, and of a myriad other things.

Tell me again how that aligns with the faith you profess?

Sometimes people learn something they didnt know by reading something posted by another, even if it is scripture they dont remember or never read.

None are forced to read it, but if it is helpful to someone it was worth it.

Nice language from a 'thumper.

You religious types never fail to make me laugh at you.

Just waiting for the ice break up....spring has been postponed for another 2 or so months.

Read the above in bold, which you wrote, then explain to me how you are not lying? You sent me a PM asking personal questions about my family situation that would prompt me to sell off a few guns.

I didn't question you're motives for doing so, although at this point I think it would be wise to. By sending me that message, you did exactly what you just said you never do. That is called lying.

So get off your high horse, as if it wasn't plain before, it is now.

I asked you about why you were selling the guns and stuff.

In fact, here's the question I asked in a PM entitled "Gear Purge" and that you answered with a schit ton of information.



I didn't ask you any more than that.

The lie, friend, is implying that I did. As to what is made plain, that's obvious as well, and it's not me being a liar, or at war with God, or any of the other schit you're accusing me of.

Did I ask you to contact me about my personal business?

If you are feeling angst over your perception of private communications being used aberrantly for a personal attack, it's probably time to walk from this thread.

There are no winners or losers, just today and tomorrow.

Did I ask you to tell me chapter and verse about your personal business?

Someone asked me a question that went to a personal matter I'd rather not discuss. I politely declined. You could have done the same. You chose not to do so.

None of this is contradictory to what I've stated previously, and none of it makes me a liar (though, it doesn't make you look too good nor too stable in your professed faith).

Just because you remove yourself from a PM thread does not mean that it vanishes.

You've called me a liar, twice, and been wrong and baseless both times. You've accused me of a host of things, all vile and all wrong. Now, you resort to this. It's really pretty clear you're not very secure in that faith you profess and you sure as Hell aren't setting forth any example of being a good Christian as you're supposedly commanded to do. Bearing false witness, among other things, is clearly evident.

I've accused you of nothing at all, save being insecure in your faith and that only recently. That's abundantly clear at this point. You, on the other hand, cast aspersions like Palestinians with stones.

OK but I didn't read this whole thread. I have my beliefs and will keep them to myself.

If I used any private conversations, or allusions to them, for an attack, that's news to me. Hell, I didn't even bring them up.

Such a victim.

Not even close.

You're drowning in your own words, and it's really rather sad.

You've made false claims against another, among many other actions on this thread, that are in direct contrast to the faith you profess. You display insecurity and discomfort with any question about vague or contradictory passages, and you stoop to personal attacks instead of dialogue.

There's no victim at all here.

I have been told this as well from a pastor.

Never could wrap my head around it.

Just glad I heard an answered.

Proverbs 23:9
Do not speak to fools, for they will scorn your prudent words.

Matthew 7:6

Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Proverbs 9:8
Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.

Proverbs 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.

Matthew 15:26
He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs."

If you keep going, you might even convince yourself of your faith.

Veiled insults diminish you, and your professed faith, far more than they harm or impact anyone else.

BTW - what is that definition of "rebuke" again?