An atheist can no more 'disprove' the existance of God than can a believer 'prove' the existance of God.
I did not ask about proof. I asked if he "knew" there was no god. There is an abundance of atheist literature and even "doctrine" that flatly states "There is no god."
How about you? Do you "know" there is no god?
TF
Originally Posted by captain seafire
I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
The answer is, you don't. Actually, I suspect most folks that claim to atheists are actually fearful agnostics.
Any atheists out there that want to tell us how they "know" there is no god?
TF
No one "knows" one way or the other. That, is fact. Many have beliefs, one way or the other, but no one "knows".
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
.....The other point is that Jesus is of the Trinity. He had never been separated from the Father. The Word says he “was made sin for us.” I believe Jesus was separated from the Father at the moment he was made “sin” for us. Now, I cannot imagine anything worse that being separated from the Father.
So, yes, the death was for each one of us as individuals and it was very costly for the Son.
TF
The issue is not the sacrifice of the Son. The issue is what was the sacrifice of God. What did he give up? Since God is not temporal, he cannot start with something and end up with something less.
Moreover, 'Trinity' is not of the Bible.
.............................................
Well, you are flat out wrong about the Trinity. This a laugher, another non-christian telling us what Christians believe.
Your statement: "Since God is not temporal, he cannot start with something and end up with something less." is obtuse at best.
Care to explain that?
TF
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
.....The other point is that Jesus is of the Trinity. He had never been separated from the Father. The Word says he “was made sin for us.” I believe Jesus was separated from the Father at the moment he was made “sin” for us. Now, I cannot imagine anything worse that being separated from the Father.
So, yes, the death was for each one of us as individuals and it was very costly for the Son.
TF
The issue is not the sacrifice of the Son. The issue is what was the sacrifice of God. What did he give up? Since God is not temporal, he cannot start with something and end up with something less.
Moreover, 'Trinity' is not of the Bible.
.............................................
Well, you are flat out wrong about the Trinity. This a laugher, another non-christian telling us what Christians believe.
Your statement: "Since God is not temporal, he cannot start with something and end up with something less." is obtuse at best.
Care to explain that?
TF
Trinity is an extrapolation. Where in the Bible is "Trinity" explicitly referred to?
Even RM knows that God created time. The Christian God is defined to exist outside of the restraint of time . Gain and loss only has meaning if there is chronology.
.....The other point is that Jesus is of the Trinity. He had never been separated from the Father. The Word says he “was made sin for us.” I believe Jesus was separated from the Father at the moment he was made “sin” for us. Now, I cannot imagine anything worse that being separated from the Father.
So, yes, the death was for each one of us as individuals and it was very costly for the Son.
TF
The issue is not the sacrifice of the Son. The issue is what was the sacrifice of God. What did he give up? Since God is not temporal, he cannot start with something and end up with something less.
Moreover, 'Trinity' is not of the Bible.
.............................................
Well, you are flat out wrong about the Trinity. This a laugher, another non-christian telling us what Christians believe.
Your statement: "Since God is not temporal, he cannot start with something and end up with something less." is obtuse at best.
Care to explain that?
TF
Trinity is an extrapolation. Where in the Bible is "Trinity" explicitly referred to?
Even RM knows that God created time. The Christian God is defined to exist outside of the restraint of time . Gain and loss only has meaning if there is chronology.
c12,
"Gain and loss only has meaning if there is chronology"
"Trinity is an extrapolation"
What?
TF
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
.....The other point is that Jesus is of the Trinity. He had never been separated from the Father. The Word says he “was made sin for us.” I believe Jesus was separated from the Father at the moment he was made “sin” for us. Now, I cannot imagine anything worse that being separated from the Father.
So, yes, the death was for each one of us as individuals and it was very costly for the Son.
TF
The issue is not the sacrifice of the Son. The issue is what was the sacrifice of God. What did he give up? Since God is not temporal, he cannot start with something and end up with something less.
Moreover, 'Trinity' is not of the Bible.
.............................................
Well, you are flat out wrong about the Trinity. This a laugher, another non-christian telling us what Christians believe.
Your statement: "Since God is not temporal, he cannot start with something and end up with something less." is obtuse at best.
Care to explain that?
TF
Trinity is an extrapolation. Where in the Bible is "Trinity" explicitly referred to?
Even RM knows that God created time. The Christian God is defined to exist outside of the restraint of time . Gain and loss only has meaning if there is chronology.
c12,
"Gain and loss only has meaning if there is chronology"
"Trinity is an extrapolation"
What?
TF
OK.
Back up to the original question.
What did God sacrifice?
He made a son to save sinners
Slaughtered his son so sinners could have salvation.
Resurrected his son after the sacrifice.
God still has his son.
All this happens in chronological time for us.
But not for God.
His dead son is his live son because God is not constrained by time.
Still not sure about his statement. Jesus was indeed "temporal."
Philippians 2:5-10
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [d]on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,"
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
Slaughtered his son so sinners could have salvation.
Resurrected his son after the sacrifice.
God still has his son.
All this happens in chronological time for us.
But not for God.
His dead son is his live son because God is not constrained by time.
What did God sacrifice? [/quote]
Here's a great mystery and hard to understand , yet nevertheless true. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus and God are one. At the same time Jesus is also a man.
You and I do not know what Jesus suffered. We think of death as the ultimate loss, yet death is not ultimate loss. Our spirits will live forever. Whether we spend that eternity in Heaven or Hell is up to us.
The loss that Jesus suffered from the most was separation from God. From God's view point, separation from Him is ultimate loss, not the death of a temporary physical body.God turned his back on Jesus on the cross. Jesus cried out," My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!"
I wondered why God turned his back on Jesus for a long time and just recently while studying grace, God told me. God turned his back on Jesus because of sin. because Jesus took that punishment, God will never leave us nor forsake us, even in our worst sin. That price was also paid by Jesus on the cross.
You ask what God suffered. The better question is what did Jesus suffer. Jesus suffered everything a sinner can suffer who has no standing with God and is utterly lost. That's the price Jesus paid. Jesus paid our debt, every last part of it. All he asks of us is to accept his sacrifice as payment for our sins.
Do you understand that Jesus is the third part of the Trinity and is in fact God?
If you do, please re-read my statement. If you do not, there is little I can do to assist you in your understanding.
TF
Ok. Let's go with that.
God makes a son that is himself to be a blood sacrifice to himself.
God sacrifices his son/himself to himself as a condition he also made up so sinners don't have to kill lambs and/or (goat)kids anymore for salvation.
After the sacrifice to himself, God resurrects his son/himself LNIB knowing all along that was what he was going to do in the first place.
Keeping in mind the putative suffering was entirely self-induced, where was the sacrifice?
Apologies to thin_man for paraphrasing his earlier post without permission.
Every sacrifice of animals was only a representation and substitute until the real sacrifice could be made. You must understand that it was never the blood of animals that atoned for sin. It was faith in the sacrifice. We are saved by faith in the sacrifice and always have been.
Man sinned and lost his connection with God. Man could not regain that connection because He could not rid himself of that sin nature. It took a sacrifice of one without the sin nature. That one was Jesus, born not by the seed of man which was imbued with the sin nature but born by the incorruptible word of God. Jesus who had never sinned , paid the full price of a sinner. Because Jesus never sinned,the price he paid was not for himself. That payment is available for anyone who will accept it.
Here's a great mystery and hard to understand , yet nevertheless true. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus and God are one. At the same time Jesus is also a man.
You and I do not know what Jesus suffered. We think of death as the ultimate loss, yet death is not ultimate loss. Our spirits will live forever. Whether we spend that eternity in Heaven or Hell is up to us.
The loss that Jesus suffered from the most was separation from God. From God's view point, separation from Him is ultimate loss, not the death of a temporary physical body.God turned his back on Jesus on the cross. Jesus cried out," My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!"
I wondered why God turned his back on Jesus for a long time and just recently while studying grace, God told me. God turned his back on Jesus because of sin. because Jesus took that punishment, God will never leave us nor forsake us, even in our worst sin. That price was also paid by Jesus on the cross.
You ask what God suffered. The better question is what did Jesus suffer. Jesus suffered everything a sinner can suffer who has no standing with God and is utterly lost. That's the price Jesus paid. Jesus paid our debt, every last part of it. All he asks of us is to accept his sacrifice as payment for our sins.
The Crucifixion/salvation story is the original 'reality' show. The drama is contrived, scripted and prearranged.
A sacrifice made by an entity to itself really just means all the goodies remain with the same holding company. Likewise, Jesus is just God's dummy corporation.
God's forsakening Jesus was temporary. It was business as usual immediately after. And since Jesus is God, he most probably knew how the story ended too.
A demonstration of sacrifice is not supported by the text.
Now if the ancient story tellers had God send Jesus to Hell for eternity, that would have made a demonstration of sacrifice.
Last edited by carbon12; 03/27/15. Reason: uuuuurp
Here's a great mystery and hard to understand , yet nevertheless true. Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus and God are one. At the same time Jesus is also a man.
You and I do not know what Jesus suffered. We think of death as the ultimate loss, yet death is not ultimate loss. Our spirits will live forever. Whether we spend that eternity in Heaven or Hell is up to us.
The loss that Jesus suffered from the most was separation from God. From God's view point, separation from Him is ultimate loss, not the death of a temporary physical body.God turned his back on Jesus on the cross. Jesus cried out," My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!"
I wondered why God turned his back on Jesus for a long time and just recently while studying grace, God told me. God turned his back on Jesus because of sin. because Jesus took that punishment, God will never leave us nor forsake us, even in our worst sin. That price was also paid by Jesus on the cross.
You ask what God suffered. The better question is what did Jesus suffer. Jesus suffered everything a sinner can suffer who has no standing with God and is utterly lost. That's the price Jesus paid. Jesus paid our debt, every last part of it. All he asks of us is to accept his sacrifice as payment for our sins.
The Crucifixion/salvation story is the original 'reality' show. The drama is contrived, scripted and prearranged.
A sacrifice made by an entity to itself really just means all the goodies remain with the same holding company. Likewise, Jesus is just God's dummy corporation.
God's forsakening Jesus was temporary. It was business as usual immediately after. And since Jesus is God, he most probably knew how the story ended too.
A demonstration of sacrifice is not supported by the text.
Now if the ancient story tellers had God send Jesus to Hell for eternity, that would have made a demonstration of sacrifice.
So, you are attacking a story and a religion that you believe is false. You do not believe in Jesus. OK, I get that.
I do not know your religious beliefs but ask you: Do you believe you have an immortal soul?
If so, why do you believe that?
TF
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
