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Here's a great mystery and hard to understand , yet nevertheless true.
Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus and God are one. At the same time Jesus is also a man.
You and I do not know what Jesus suffered. We think of death as the ultimate loss, yet death is not ultimate loss. Our spirits will live forever. Whether we spend that eternity in Heaven or Hell is up to us.
The loss that Jesus suffered from the most was separation from God. From God's view point, separation from Him is ultimate loss, not the death of a temporary physical body.God turned his back on Jesus on the cross. Jesus cried out," My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!"
I wondered why God turned his back on Jesus for a long time and just recently while studying grace, God told me. God turned his back on Jesus because of sin. because Jesus took that punishment, God will never leave us nor forsake us, even in our worst sin. That price was also paid by Jesus on the cross.
You ask what God suffered. The better question is what did Jesus suffer. Jesus suffered everything a sinner can suffer who has no standing with God and is utterly lost. That's the price Jesus paid. Jesus paid our debt, every last part of it. All he asks of us is to accept his sacrifice as payment for our sins.
The Crucifixion/salvation story is the original 'reality' show. The drama is contrived, scripted and prearranged. A sacrifice made by an entity to itself really just means all the goodies remain with the same holding company. Likewise, Jesus is just God's dummy corporation. God's forsakening Jesus was temporary. It was business as usual immediately after. And since Jesus is God, he most probably knew how the story ended too. A demonstration of sacrifice is not supported by the text. Now if the ancient story tellers had God send Jesus to Hell for eternity, that would have made a demonstration of sacrifice. So, you are attacking a story and a religion that you believe is false. You do not believe in Jesus. OK, I get that. I do not know your religious beliefs but ask you: Do you believe you have an immortal soul? If so, why do you believe that? TF What I believe is irrelevant to logical analysis of Biblical text. Shooting the messenger's Innanet persona only bloodies the mud. I choose to leave it at that.
Last edited by carbon12; 03/27/15. Reason: uuuurp
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Campfire Ranger
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a. You're dodging the question.
b. So, how do you know there is no god?
c. The answer is, you don't.
a. laffin'...no more than you are. b. So, how do you know there is a God...? c. The answer is, you don't.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Here's a great mystery and hard to understand , yet nevertheless true.
Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus and God are one. At the same time Jesus is also a man.
You and I do not know what Jesus suffered. We think of death as the ultimate loss, yet death is not ultimate loss. Our spirits will live forever. Whether we spend that eternity in Heaven or Hell is up to us.
The loss that Jesus suffered from the most was separation from God. From God's view point, separation from Him is ultimate loss, not the death of a temporary physical body.God turned his back on Jesus on the cross. Jesus cried out," My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!"
I wondered why God turned his back on Jesus for a long time and just recently while studying grace, God told me. God turned his back on Jesus because of sin. because Jesus took that punishment, God will never leave us nor forsake us, even in our worst sin. That price was also paid by Jesus on the cross.
You ask what God suffered. The better question is what did Jesus suffer. Jesus suffered everything a sinner can suffer who has no standing with God and is utterly lost. That's the price Jesus paid. Jesus paid our debt, every last part of it. All he asks of us is to accept his sacrifice as payment for our sins.
The Crucifixion/salvation story is the original 'reality' show. The drama is contrived, scripted and prearranged. A sacrifice made by an entity to itself really just means all the goodies remain with the same holding company. Likewise, Jesus is just God's dummy corporation. God's forsakening Jesus was temporary. It was business as usual immediately after. And since Jesus is God, he most probably knew how the story ended too. A demonstration of sacrifice is not supported by the text. Now if the ancient story tellers had God send Jesus to Hell for eternity, that would have made a demonstration of sacrifice. So, you are attacking a story and a religion that you believe is false. You do not believe in Jesus. OK, I get that. I do not know your religious beliefs but ask you: Do you believe you have an immortal soul? If so, why do you believe that? TF What I believe is irrelevant to logical analysis of Biblical text. Shooting the messenger's Innanet persona only bloodies the mud. I choose to leave it at that. Yep, I figured you'd leave it that. TF
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Atheism is a dogmatic position held on the basis of faith.
Communists: I still hate them even after they changed their name to "liberals".
____________________
My boss asked why I wasn't working. I told him I was being a democrat for Halloween.
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a. You're dodging the question.
b. So, how do you know there is no god?
c. The answer is, you don't.
a. laffin'...no more than you are. b. So, how do you know there is a God...? c. The answer is, you don't. So, you really can't say "I know there is no god." Yet that is pretty standard atheistic doctrine. If the atheists on this board cannot say "I know there is no god" then I wonder if they are not all really agnostics masquerading as atheists? TF
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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a. You're dodging the question.
b. So, how do you know there is no god?
c. The answer is, you don't.
a. laffin'...no more than you are. b. So, how do you know there is a God...? c. The answer is, you don't. 1. So, you really can't say "I know there is no god." Yet that is pretty standard atheistic doctrine. 2. If the atheists on this board cannot say "I know there is no god" then I wonder if they are not all really agnostics masquerading as atheists? 1. So, you really can't say " I know there is a God." Yet that is pretty standard Christian doctrine. 2. If you cannot say "I know there is a God" then I wonder if you are really an agnostic masquerading as a Christian...?
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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You're dodging the question.
So, how do you know there is no god?
The answer is, you don't. Actually, I suspect most folks that claim to atheists are actually fearful agnostics.
Any atheists out there that want to tell us how they "know" there is no god?
TF
No one "knows" one way or the other. That, is fact. Many have beliefs, one way or the other, but no one "knows". +1 Both the theist and the atheist should be humbled by that fact, but... None so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see.Matthew Henry
Remember why, specifically, the Bill of Rights was written...remember its purpose. It was written to limit the power of government over the individual.
There is no believing a liar, even when he speaks the truth.
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a. You're dodging the question.
b. So, how do you know there is no god?
c. The answer is, you don't.
a. laffin'...no more than you are. b. So, how do you know there is a God...? c. The answer is, you don't. So, you really can't say "I know there is no god." Yet that is pretty standard atheistic doctrine. If the atheists on this board cannot say "I know there is no god" then I wonder if they are not all really agnostics masquerading as atheists? TF You don't have to "know" there is no god to be an atheist anymore than you have to "know" there are no unicorns, aliens, or bigfoots (bigfeet?) to not believe in them. Atheists are without a belief in god. Most I know are agnostic about it. Some claim to Know there are no gods but I can't see how that would be possible. I don't believe based on the available evidence, that unicorns, bigfeet, aliens, or gods exist. I am however open to the possibility that an alien ship could land, a bigfoot could come riding out of the woods on a unicorn, or a god could show up and set us all straight. Until then, I see no reason to believe they exist.
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Is being religious the same as being spiritual? I have never read the bible, nor will I ever. I have never understood why so many people think they should live their lives according to some book....there are billions of books in the world. Just saying. To me organized religion is nothing more than big business.
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I have never read the bible, nor will I ever. I have never understood why so many people think they should live their lives according to some book Your first sentence explains the second. But since you won't read The Book, you won't know. Abraham Lincoln said something to the effect, "no one can truly claim to be educated unless they have read the most widely published book in history."
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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I have never read the bible, nor will I ever. I have never understood why so many people think they should live their lives according to some book Your first sentence explains the second. But since you won't read The Book, you won't know. Abraham Lincoln said something to the effect, "no one can truly claim to be educated unless they have read the most widely published book in history." I've read the Bible. I still don't know.
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Antlers, carbon12 and hillbilly,
You have fallen victim to a fairly common logical fallacy called a “propositional fallacy.” This occurs when a “consequent is claimed to be false because the antecedent is false.”
Explanation: Suppose carbon12, billhilly and antlers are out moose hunting and come upon a camp of bigfoots having dinner. They are invited to join and enjoy the fellowship with the bigfoots for a couple of hours. Then more bigfoots arrive riding unicorns. A great time is had by all and they return to camp with a tale to tell.
Here is the point, someone at camp might say baloney because the bigfoot/unicorn happening is not is their set of life circumstances. Now the occurrence IS in the set of life circumstances of antlers, hillbilly and carbon12 and they are now believers in both bigfoots and unicorns.
The other camp member might tell them; Well we have never seen a bigfoot or a unicorn and since WE have never seen them, it is IMPOSSIBLE for you three to have seen them. There it is, the propositional fallacy. False, because the three of you KNOW that bigfoots and unicorns exist. So, you KNOW something to be true but you cannot convince your campfire members it is true because it is in YOUR set of experience but not theirs.
So, you may feel the need to make jokes drinking too much or what not and about bigfoots and unicorns, but you must see the failure of your logic and attempts at joking only make it clear that either you don’t understand or are unwilling to admit the logic error.
TF
Last edited by TF49; 03/28/15. Reason: word
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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it's the same argument. People who claim to have met God or "know" God exists cannot prove it to those who haven't met God or doubt God's existence.
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You're takin' the long way around the barn...but YOU still wind up in the same place. YOU can no more say that you 'know' that God exists anymore than an athiest can say he 'knows' that God doesn't exist.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Oracle
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Atheists will never convince Christians that god does not exist.
Christians will never convince Atheists that god does exist.
That about wraps it up!
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Atheists will never convince Christians that god does not exist.
Christians will never convince Atheists that god does exist.
That about wraps it up! Yep. Succinctly.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Atheists will never convince Christians that god does not exist.
Christians will never convince Atheists that god does exist.
That about wraps it up! Yep. Succinctly. The "Christians" can't leave it like that 'cause they know they're right 'cause it's in the book.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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...do you know that no god exists? An atheist can no more 'disprove' the existance of God than can a believer 'prove' the existance of God. Kind of like "Russell's teapot". Just because you can describe something that cannot be dis-proven, doesn't mean it exists.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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How long do you burn while consumed in fire before you are history and feel nothing? Though God tells us you burn forever in the everlasting fire, show me in scripture where you stay alive and suffer forever. The flesh you choose doesnt live forever. Stop assuming. wink Here are some. You will have to put Revelation 19:20 together with Revelation 20:10 to get the message we are addressing. When you read the Matthew Passage you will notice the same adjetive for eternal life and eternal punishment. Which "eternal" does not mean eternal? Revelation 19:20“And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.” Revelation 20:10 “And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” 2 Peter 2:9-10“The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.” Luke 16:22-24Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ Mark 9:42-48“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea. If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED. If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.” Matthew 25:41-46“’Then He will also say to those on His left, “Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.” When they themselves also will answer, “Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?” Then He will answer them, “Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”’” Thanks for that Ringman. I had forgotten that, i guess after having listened to Shephards Chapel. I doubt you really forgot it. You were just trying to down play the brutality of the Christian Faith. Of course I will say this about Ringman, he does know his scripture, and what it really says, not what apologist want it to say.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Antlers, carbon12 and hillbilly,
You have fallen victim to a fairly common logical fallacy called a “propositional fallacy.” This occurs when a “consequent is claimed to be false because the antecedent is false.”
Explanation: Suppose carbon12, billhilly and antlers are out moose hunting and come upon a camp of bigfoots having dinner. They are invited to join and enjoy the fellowship with the bigfoots for a couple of hours. Then more bigfoots arrive riding unicorns. A great time is had by all and they return to camp with a tale to tell.
Here is the point, someone at camp might say baloney because the bigfoot/unicorn happening is not is their set of life circumstances. Now the occurrence IS in the set of life circumstances of antlers, hillbilly and carbon12 and they are now believers in both bigfoots and unicorns.
The other camp member might tell them; Well we have never seen a bigfoot or a unicorn and since WE have never seen them, it is IMPOSSIBLE for you three to have seen them. There it is, the propositional fallacy. False, because the three of you KNOW that bigfoots and unicorns exist. So, you KNOW something to be true but you cannot convince your campfire members it is true because it is in YOUR set of experience but not theirs.
So, you may feel the need to make jokes drinking too much or what not and about bigfoots and unicorns, but you must see the failure of your logic and attempts at joking only make it clear that either you don’t understand or are unwilling to admit the logic error.
TF
Or the other camp members might reasonably ask for evidence of our claim to have seen unicorns and bigfoots. Taking them back top the bigfoot campsite should do it. Even if they're all gone by then, the campsite will have more physical evidence of their existence than there is for gods.
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