Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Atheism is a Religion - Right?

Once again, you are the person who's logic fails. In the above example the skeptic would evaluate the claim verses the evidence. Yes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

In your above example, it would be easy to test the evidence. How many pictures did you take of this event with your cell phone? Do you have video of it? Lets see your GPS so we can revisit the camp site. There should be remnants of the meal, evidence of where the tent was pitched, hair, footprints, hoof tracks, maybe horn imprints or rub marks on the trees, and Unicorn droppings. The Scat and the hair could be subjected to DNA testing to see if it originated for common farm animals, or something more exotics. In other words, there would be plenty of opportunity for you to provide evidence to support your claim.

If on the other hand, you claim the bigfoots and unicorns curve space and time so that you could see them, but your cell phone and GPS wouldn't work, and none of you could find the alleged camp site, and it wouldn't matter even if we could find it, because only people who were at the party could see tent stake holes, foot prints, hair, and where the unicorns rubbed their horns on the trees. Then you insist I have to believe it, because I can't disprove your light bending, space warping unicorn story.

So you above example is completely off the mark, which is not surprising, since YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW THE MEANING OF THE WORDS PROPOSITIONAL FALLACY:

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/propfall.html

Once again, all you managed to do is demonstrate how you don't understand logic or the nature of evidence.

Sauer200,



There is so much speculation goin' on here. My experience was the opposite of your statement. I had to read the Bible to discover what I believe. When I started I had some preconceived notions about some of Its subjects, but over the first ten years I was corrected. An example came when a non-Christian boss asked me,
"Why did Jesus speak in parables?"
"I think to make things clearer to His listeners, but I don't know. Give me a couple days and I will write an essay so both of us will know." Of course I was shocked to discover from Jesus' Word why He spoke in parable. I found the answer. In a few days I confidently told him the answer because Jesus’ disciples asked Him the very same question and the answer was recorded. Jesus’ answer follows.

Mark 4:11-12
"And He was saying to them, 'To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables; in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive; and while hearing, they may hear and not understand; lest they return again and be forgiven.'"

Scientists have this type of evidence. Things like DNA, the chance of spontaneous abiogenesis, the Pointene / Roberson effect. The Roche Limit, the fact carbon 14 is found in EVERY sample of fossil, fossil fuel, and even diamonds tested, etc, etc. I will post a quote from the geology book I am reading later this week end.

Prezactly!

And once in awhile, God inserts himself into the life of an atheist in some way, personal or miraculous, and the former atheist takes up the impossible task of convincing atheists. It is sort of funny.

The Oxford don, C.S. Lewis, comes to mind, though he was a very good convincer.

That's bull$ch!t.
After about 60,000 years fossil fuel no longer contains 'any' carbon-14 because it has decayed away into another element. It (fossil fuel) still contains carbon, but NOT carbon-14.

Is this a fallacy?


If TF49 is not smart, then he does not know propositional fallacy.
TF49 does not know propositional fallacy.
TF49 is not smart.

Much more often though it is someone saying this God stuff that I was brought up on is just nonsense.

antlers,



It looks like you haven't done your homework! I think even the 60,000 years should be corrected to 50,000 years. The half life is 5,730 years. I heard a lecture by an astrophysicist who said he didn't believe it till he did his own calculations. He said if the entire world were carbon 14 it would turn to nitrogen in only 50,000 years.

n007,



One can't get much more anti-Christian than Muslims. Recently a friend, who travels all over the country on a regular basis, told me he has been meeting some Muslims who claim, during their prayer time, Jesus showed up and told them they were wrong. They all converted right them. He said it has happened in more town than one.

laffin'

The amout time it takes for carbon-14 to decay is described by its half-life. Yes, I know carbon-14 has a half-life of 5,730 years. In other words, after 5,730 years, only half of the original amount of carbon-14 remains in a sample of organic material. After an additional 5,730 years, or 11,460 years total...only a quarter of the carbon-14 remains. The amount of carbon-14 remaining is used to determine the age of organic materials. After 10 half-lives, or 57,300 years, the amount of carbon-14 remaining is less than 1/10th of 1 percent, and becomes very difficult to detect.

Try harder Ringman.

And the "PhD scientists" that you often refer to in your posts have been thoroughly debunked as quacks by Antelope Sniper each time, as has their psychobabble quackery.

I am merely pointing out that the moosehunters can KNOW the truth about Bigfoots/unicorns because they EXPERIENCED and SAW and INTERACTED with said beasts. They may not be able to convince anybody else, but their experience has now made them "believers" if you will.

So, simply saying that because I don't know something is not a sound basis for saying the someone else cannot know it.

Rather simple.

TF

- - until the Actual Proof is made manifest. Then, efforts to "prove" become passe.

RED HERRING ALERT! RED HERRING ALERT!

You know that the point of the story is true so you choose not to dispute it so you introduce something irrelevant. So you start with a red herring and then introduce a straw man and knock it down.

The point is, just because someone does not believe does make that belief impossible. Someone might say "I don't believe in bigfoots/unicorns." One might ask him wqhy and he might say, because there is no evidence for them that I have ever seen. All this means is tht so far, based on the SET OF HIS EXPERIANCE, he believes bigfoots/unicorns do not exist.

OK, but that does not mean someone else may have a well founded belief in bigfoots/unicorns because it is IN HIS SET OF EXPERIENCE.

Certainly you see that.

TF

You missed the point of the story didn't you.

TF

You are rather simple, that's for sure. The hunters in your analogy have physical evidence they can show to other people. Where is yours? If you don't have any, you don't know either. Faith and belief are not the same as knowing.

What is missing is the PF that you claim is there in your parable.

Oh yeah, its all over, Muslims are converting to Christianity by the hordes, within the next couple of weeks there will not be a Muslim left in the world, I heard this from a friend who actually has been out of the USA.

You cannot make this stuff up.

billhilly posted: You are rather simple, that's for sure. The hunters in your analogy have physical evidence they can show to other people. Where is yours? If you don't have any, you don't know either. Faith and belief are not the same as knowing.

antelope sniper posted: God has to exist before he can be sovereign.

antlers posted: An atheist can no more 'disprove' the existance of God than can a believer 'prove' the existance of God.

4ager posted: No one "knows" one way or the other. That, is fact. Many have beliefs, one way or the other, but no one "knows".


Here are some cuts from the above posts: “no one knows” about the existence of God. Also, “..... (can’t) … ‘prove’ the existance of God. “God has to exist (implying this has not been demonstrated, at least to AS) Then, “The hunters have evidence, Where is yours? …. you don’t know either.”

Seems that many believe that because God cannot be proven to an atheist, that this “proof” of God’s existence is not out there. This is simply not true. Going back to the moose hunters. They HAVE THEIR PROOF in their own experience. They may not be able to convince the other hunters at the campfire, but they did in fact have the experience and therefore are believers. Their set of experience contains MORE FACT and has given them FIRM BELIEF in bf/unicorns.

Now the skeptics at the campfire may not believe the story but the moosehunters believe it. In their experience, there is PROOF of the existence of bigfoots and unicorns. Sure, maybe nobody will believe it but that does not change the TRUTH of it and the TRUTH that the moosehunters now accept and believe.

billhilly posted that “I (TF) don’t know” Well, if my experience set includes an experience with God, then I KNOW that and billhilly cannot know or appreciate it.

AS posts that “God has to exist before he can be sovereign” He is correct in that but he has not had the same experience with God that I have. He cannot “know” what my faith and belief are based on. He may state that “God has not met the (my) burden of proof.” OK, but that does not deter me in any way because I have had the experience that he has not had, at least not yet.

antlers posts that an atheist cannot disprove the existence of God. True enough. But God CAN PROVE his existence to us as individuals. He has proven his existence to me. Maybe not to antlers, at least not yet.

4ager posts what may be the most straightforward view of them all. He says “...no one knows.” I would think that that is a truly held belief. But, it does not square with my own experience. I have experiences that 4ager has not yet had.

So, I know this post sounds imperious and even a bit haughty but that’s the best I seem to able to do right now.

TF

'You' cannot even 'prove' the existance of God to another believer...!

Man, I am glad to hear that! I think a couple weeks is a little optimistic, though. What kind of work does your friend do? My friend lectures about science and does debates.