Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats What the hell is wrong?

I have 45-50 three shot groups in the binder, and with a few (3-4) bughole groups, this fk'r is amazingly consistent.

Zeiss Conquest in Burris signature rings.
Trigger is adjusted to about 2.5 lb's.
Action is bedded very nicely including the barrel shank.
Clearance on bottom, sides and front of recoil lug.
Barrel is floated.
Worked up loads with 120 BT, 130 AB, 123 Scenar, 123 AMax, 140 AMax and 120 TSX's.
H4350 and a few loads with H4831SC
About 50/50 FED 210M and BR2's
Neck sized only with Redding Comp die.
Case necks brushed out before loading.
Cases annealed after three firings.
No pressure signs to date.
Land location determined by Stoney Point.
Headspace allowance for difference between modified case and fired case confirmed.
The first five groups +/- plain bullets, all others moly'd.

Range is 100 yards, about 30 yards wide with 12' berms on three sides.

This SOB shoots 2 together and one 1"-1.5" in outer space like group #3 below. It may be any of the the three shots, but at least one is out.

I believe I have covered everything except the scope but my gut tells me the Zeiss is not the problem. This particular scope was bought off the classifieds and sent to Zeiss for turrets; I would think Zeiss would have looked it over but I could be wrong.

I rarely shoot in poor conditions watching the weather to shoot in the morning on days I have a head or tailwind less than 8 mph to eliminate drift and I use flags (streamers). I shoot early to keep the temperature down (75-85 deg right now). The swivel studs are removed, I use talcum powder on the rest and bag, I hold my breath and squeeze.

I know when I am on target because the reticle covers the target perfectly.

I have 1500.00 tied up is this fk'r and I am not happy.

1. Scope? I can swap that today.

2. Stock? I would need to borrow a stock.

3. Barrel? I have heard few if any negative comments about PacNor.

What the hell am I missing?

The only thing I will not do is put a pressure point under the barrel, all of my barrels are floated and I will not start now.




This is what set me off, I went this morning with loads that have previously shown potential, specifically to make sure I was not becoming lazy with form. I made sure my eye was centered in the scope, kept a consistent grip and the butt firm to my shoulder but not tight.






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i would try switching scope then you no if it keeps up its not that group 5 looks good.then try stocks if that dont work send it back to pacnor.

Look on the side.

See where it doesn't say Remington?

There's your problem...

1. I would take out the bedding under the barrel shank so the barrel is completely floated all the way to the face of the recoil lug.

Depending on how that works out,

2. Leave the barrel completely floated & add a neutral pressure point under the barrel about an inch from the front of the forend of the stock.

Assumes that the bedding actually is good & is not stressing the action when screws are tightened.

Also, if action has the 3rd middle screw, be sure it is only just snug, not tight at all.

Good Luck.

MM

You mean the group where you have noted on the target "Yanked trigger, shot #1"?

I'd say it's a pretty easy problem to diagnose...

ColdBore, that is an *example* of the groups I am seeing but I definitely pulled the trigger. Our range has one continuous bench, at times I have to time shots in between other people if they sit close or when they rack the bolts on their rifles. I think in the case above, a guy was shooting an AR two seats away and it was fk'n loud.

I just added targets from this morning, only me on the bench.

My guess is the 'clearance' around the front recoil lug. I like to bed them tight as in difficult to remove tight - zero clearance. That would be my first step. Then, play with the seating depth of the bullets a bit. It is not ALWAYS the case that EVERY bullet wants to be touching the lands and grooves, sometimes a load will shoot noticably better with some jump there. Also, try only partially re sizing the case necks, leaving 1/4 inch of the neck un sized so that it remains a crush fir into the chamber helping to line out the bullet to bore concentricity. If those steps don't remove the fliers then try some Barnes TTSX's seated kind of deep with some jump before they contact the lands and grooves.

Rifle rest technique.... with a skinny hunting type rifle forend and light hunting weight barrel I get my best groups by shunning the typical metal front rest with itshard and often too wide front rest. Instead using an Uncle Buds bull's bag or other small opening tight on the guns forend sandbag that holds the rifle tight and upright for me with my job being merely to adjust the bags and squeeze the trigger, minimal contact between me and the rifle ittself.

Lastly, find a place to shoot or perhaps a different time to shoot when you can be there by yourself and not have fliers due to unexpected BANG'S going off as you are squeezing a shot. Add ear plugs WITH your muffs, I do at all times and it helps me shoot better.

Good luck!

Ideally I would just swap the scope first and go shoot. But the range is a good distance down the road and pay by the hour.

I can grind out the bedding easily and go shoot it tomorrow morning with the current Zeiss and see if anything changes. If I still get the flyers, I can swap the scope with another Zeiss at the range and continue shooting.




When I say clearance, it was one or two layers of masking tape on the bottom, sides and front; is this too much clearance?

The necks are sized about 1/16" from the shoulder, is this sufficient?

If the groups were consistent around an aiming point, even if 1"-1.5" center to center I would start tweaking the powder and seating depth. I am resisting the urge to start changing too much at once and the reason I stuck with H4350 and 210M's.

Here is the bedding, I realize ya'll can't see it as clearly as I can or feel how the action fits. I tighten the front screw tight and the rear snug. The factory tang bedding had a void around the hole so I chipped it out and poured it solid and re-drilled the hole.








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MM

Assuming you are very consistant in your shooting technique, rifle position and you use the same rest, or rests for testing, I'd say the scope.
Your groups vary in size and your zero seems to shift. All of this is not happening on a consistant basis. So your scope is suspect No.1.
Try a different scope. E

My opinion is different from that of MM. I prefer, as I said above, zero clearance as in looks and feels like one piece and acting together in the recoil lug area, no masking tape used, only release agent. We all have our pet theories and ways of doing things and the bedding clearance idea might work wonderfully for some, my rifles shoot wonderfully and best when there is a super tight fit at the recoil lug. Might try my way once and then MM's way if that does not tighten the groups.

I personally see the bedding job at the barrel chamber area to be quite nice and clean looking, and about right. I would leave that as is for a while and look to other things first.

I agree on releiving the screw holes some. Making them not contacting the bedding might be a big help.

If it were me, I would relieve those holes a bit then re bed the recoil lug with no tape and go shoot the rifle again. Very good chance that the groups will be good with just those minor tweaks. Good luck!

Forget the "clearance". Bed it tight, degrease screws and loctite them at about 50 in/lbs.

Check the front screw on your bases. It may be too long and be contacting the barrel threads. If it is, you will see the indentation on the top of the barrel threads-flat shiny spots.

Make sure the mag box is seated properly and not bound up in the mortise. I usually grind off .020 on all mag boxes.

Looks like the rear action screw may need to clearance so the screw itself is not contacting any portion of the pillar or bedding.

P.S.

I can't tell, but if your barreled action is sitting on an aluminum bedding block you need to skim bed it. NO metal to metal fit.

Bed the recoil lug and everything else tight. Did I mention to bed it tight and no metal to metal contact?

Hope so.

I appreciate everyone and your thoughts, even views that contradict are valuable because each condition is suspect. Here is what I found and what I have done.

I checked the action bolts and the front bolt was right against the stock so I enlarged both stock holes to make sure there is clearance, about a 1/16".

My bedding compound creeped up the side of the barrel shank quite a bit, almost to the bore centerline. Since the flyers seem to be mostly right or left at 30-45 degrees, and I don't completely cool the rifle between shots or groups this is suspect to me. I decided to get rid of the bedding in the stock back to the recoil lug and went after it with the die grinder.

Last weekend, 42 gr's of H4350 produced a .336" group with all other charges higher and lower grouping 1"-1.25".

This morning, the group at 42 gr's is .461" and 42.5 gr's is 2" or so. I did not shoot any lower charges.

I am going to load a batch of AMax's at 42 gr's and carry a scope with me later this evening or tomorrow morning and try again. If the flyer's persist I will swap the scope and keep shooting.

I have had excellent luck with both full-lug bedding and "clearance" bedding of the lug, with dozens of rifles.

The scope is always among my first suspects, but you might check to see if the magazine box is binding either on the bottom of the action or anywhere inside the stock, especially the front or rear end. I've seen groups like that a number of times due to the magazine box putting pressure somewhere.

Respectfully disagree.

I have a M700 VS (HS Precision stock).

It is not bedded, has metal to metal contact, and regularly shoots in the 1/2 MOA range. It is "as-issued" by the Remington factory.

I also have others (VS/PSS, same stock style), that I have skim bedded, on a recommendation.

I certainly can't tell a difference.

The first thing I would do is scrub the barrel really well and ditch the moly, some barrels just don't like the stuff. If you get it shooting OK without the moly then you can start playing with it again, right now it just adds another variable.

What caliber?

260

PacNor Super Match, 22" 8T 5-groove, .630" muzzle

Golly Gee, Benchrest hall of famer Walt Berger must be wrong then..... Who knew?

I use Moly by the metric tonload and it always helps with my rifles.

Kidding aside, I seriously doubt that Moly has the slightest to do with any of this.