MarlinSBL 45-70 w/Garretts 540gr. SuperHardCast gas-checked Hammerhead
Benelli M4 H2O w/Brenneke Black Magic Slug
Browning BAR .338 w/300gr. Woodleigh Weldcore JSP
Ar15/M4 .458 SOCOM w/405gr. CORBON Self-Defense JSP

Which Gun/Cal./cartridge-bullet would you want with you for defense(not hunting) against Grizzly & Coastal Brown Bear...and why?

Will any of these guns/loads do just fine?

Anyone should work, just saying. Never had to defend myself against a bear though.

Any of those would work. Personally, I'd probably choose the Marlin, but with 350-420 grain bullets of hard or tough construction, and moderate speed. The main thing is that the weapon must be friendly enough to keep handy at all times when it is potentially needed.

Some of these may not penetrate before desentegrating or flattening on a thick skull--the Corbon"JSP" and the Black Magic slug. The hard-cast 45/70 for sure will stay together. The .338 Woodleigh is a different kind of "JSP" from the Corbon and will penetrate.

hmmm...seems to be a popular pick that 45-70...although that Brenneke BlackMagic is .80 cal. and hold together penetrating for 3-4 feet?
I am partial to semi-auto especially when you may only have 3 seconds or less?
How about that .338 BAR w/Corbon?
And that .458 ...is it too weak?

Mostly I carry my Win 94 .30-30 (Dad's gun, manufactured 1927)

Moose hunting - often the .338 Mag, tho the last couple seasons the .260.

Primary weapon however, is the ol' brain.... bears ain't so dangerous as dumshititis.

42 years in Alaska dinging around the weeds, I've yet to HAVE to shot a bear. If I ever have to, I'd prefer a 5 inch Naval gun.

I'm thinking the sling to carry it might be a bit much....

The Brenneke slugs are hard, not like Foster "deer" slugs.

Placement remains king.

Personally, the rubric is:
rifle > shotgun > handgun.

I seem to recall someone on here mentioned carrying a .454 lever action for bear defense.
I can't remember who it was though.

My Marlin .45-70 with my "Rhino Blaster" loads (460g hardcast @ 1812fps) would give a lot of confidence.

Those suckers cut heavy steel chain at 100 yards and wrap the hanging steel targets around the pole until the chain is used up.

Yes...I know, and I kinda like the idea of quick followup shot (placement, of course)...whether with a SG or BAR. Hunting is one thing...but at 10 yds. or closer I am really wondering if it matters between a .338 Win, Mag - .375H&H or .416 Rigby and such...?

Big bears do not get big by eating tiny humans. They get that way by being smart and avoiding them. Humans get old by avoiding bears. As las said, it's largely a matter of brain use - or not. (You might also reference Timmy T. if you need further evidence of this concept.)

Avoid whale stink emanating from the alders and other similar situations. (Clue here: the whale probably had help getting there. ) If you're a raven or magpie lover/watcher, buy more life insurance. (Clue here: they're either hanging around 'cause something's already dead, or they have reason to believe you may become their next meal. ) If you find a freshly 'baked' berry pie cooling on the tundra, stay clear. (Clue here: Aunt Millie doesn't - or shouldn't anyway- put twigs, leaves, and green berries in her pies....hopefully. ) About animal tracks: if it makes a big track with two toes, stay alert, but don't worry; if there are also small two-toe tracks intermingled: perhaps worry some. If the tracks involve ten toes- five smaller 'toes' ahead of five bigger round impressions, move in the direction of the bigger ones.

I would not choose any of those, although I have carried my Marlin 1895-'70s vintage .45-70 with heavy loads and good bullets as well as a modded Miroku 1886 SRC with the same loads.

I usually spend a lot of time every year alone in tiny mountain tents in densely populated Grizzly country. I prefer a short, CRF .375H&H-300 NPs or a 22.5" tubed .338WM-Classic sts-modded action-250NP or one of my Brno ZG or 550 rifles in 9.3x62-286NP.

I also sometimes carry and sleep with my Merkel drilling, 12-12-9.3x74R, with two Brennekes and a 286 NP at 2400. This, actually, if you are familiar with it, a VERY important point, is about as "good" a bear defence gun as exists.

My bear encounters.

About 1968 or so.I'm in my early twenties. Macho dumbshit carrying a 44mag SBH. I had packed into NE NM and had taken the horses back to the ranch.Walking back in I meet a black bear coming down the trail. The black bear goes off the trail about 20yards and sits down.I draw my handgun, and was able to cover the entire bear by shaking.Handgun goes back in holster,I move to the opposite side of the trail. Bear comes back,goes down the trail. I go back on the trail and continue up it.

1978 or so. I'm hunting deer in Southern CO. I was working some nasty thick stuff and crawled up over a mound.There about 6 ft from me is a big black bear's head sticking out of a den. Eyes open looking at me.I skid back down the mound,go into town and buy a bear tag,I took my two hunting buddies back and we go to the den. I told them I will flush it out they are suppose to shoot it. Luckily the bear was gone as I found out the two guys could not hit the broad side of a barn.

1980 or so and I had an elk hunt in the Red Deer river country of Alberta.We came upon and elk kill that a grizzliy had gotten on and the guide ( you had to have one in Alberta if you were a NR)asked me to get off my horse and put my boot the grizzly track to compare the size. He told me the horse would alert me if the bear was close.Dumb me gets off the horse that is snorting and blowing like heck. I got back on the horse and we had what I called a controlled run away. Back in camp the guides had a good laugh and said they would sure as heck not get off thier horse if a bear was close by. I guess Canadian guides have wierd sense of humors. I got a decent bull that trip,bu t nothing to brag about.

1998 or so. We were ML hunting elk in the Flat Tops of CO.I did not have tag,and was wrangling the mules.My two buddies (different from above) were off hunting and I had curled up in a pauncho and went to sleep. The mules went beserk and were bucking, bawling, kicking and woke me up.Rolling out of the pauncho,I see a good size bear ambling down the trail I was next to,about 35 feet from me. I hastliy drew my handgun, and got ready.Then realized I only had the 32H&R mag in my hand. By that time the bear had stood up,chomping it's teeth, but I guess that the mules were making too much racket and it turned and ambled back up the trail.Note to self, 32 is poor bear defense and always carry extra shorts to changed into. One mule never did calm down.I had to leave early and that mule ran off, my buddy came off and broke a few ribs.

A few years later. Again ML elk hunting in southern CO and I again had no tag. My one buddy had broken his foot and returned to Colorado Springs to get it looked at and that left me with a young lad of 25 or so that I was guiding of sorts without fee. I had set him set up and returend to the mules and went to sleep in a pauncho ( I like to sleep). I had taken off my belt with the handgun and laid it off to the side.I guess it was an hour or so later that I was jolted out of my sleep by something growling, tossing me about and rolling me around. I am completly wrapped up in the pauncho and cannot see a thing,but I'm punching, hollering ( probably it was more like screaming). I landed a few good ones and then I started to hear " Vince,it's me. it's me stop".Damn young kids.So after I get untangled, he's lauging his head off but has a good strawberry on his cheek and a bloody lip. He tells everyone that he knew in MO about his really good practical joke.

The next year he comes out again.After a few days,I stay in camp and fix things up. I took a road flare that had no markings and stuck about 10" of cannon fuse in it. When he went to bed, the two other guys limbered up the VCRs and we sneaked into the tent.I yelled to wake him and then tossed the lit fused flare at his bunk and told him that it was a 10 second fuse and he best get his ass in gear. He came up and out of the tent like do-do thru a goose and heaved that flare a good 50 yards.We stood there laughing.Pay backs a bitch.He did not come hunting out again,but later relayed to the two other guys that he thought I was a mean SOB. That same hunt, my buddy killed a nice 7x7 bull and I tagged a silver phase black bear that got on the gut pile.

Three years ago, working down a draw ,I jumped a bear that just ambled off and sat on a log watching me,.No bear tag then but we had a nice visit.

This past year during 2nd rifle season and big brown phase bear came up the trail I had walked in on with it's nose to my tracks.It came about 50 yards from me and then veered off into timber and left.The next day,it got on the front quarters of an elk I still had to pack out,but did't get much meat. I found out later that it had got on a nice 6x bull a hunter had hung up and got off with a full hind quarter that it pulled out of a tree.

Sounds interesting...please explain / describe what that is:"I also sometimes carry and sleep with my Merkel drilling, 12-12-9.3x74R, with two Brennekes and a 286 NP at 2400. This, actually, if you are familiar with it, a VERY important point, is about as "good" a bear defence gun as exists."

Thanks...

Browning BAR .338 w/300gr. Woodleigh Weldcore JSP

nothing walking can survive a single well placed hit from that rifle , I own one and generally load the 250 hornadys, so having three more of those 300 grain in reserve that could be nearly instantly placed on an advancing bear would certainly make me feel well armed

The 45-70 with a heavy hard cast bullets will penetrate even the largest Bear stem to stern,also,in penetration test done by a major ammunition maker::::

The 300 grain Nosler PP out of the 45-70 out penetrated the 300 grain Nosler Partiton from the 375 H&H in wet print.

Jayco

Well, having owned three .45-70s and seven .375H&H rifles, with none of the former and two of the latter in my safes now and some 35 years experience with these two rounds and the bullets mentioned-the .458-300 not as long- I kinda doubt that it is equal to the .375-300NP.

I do not put much faith in rigged tests of bullets intended for dangerous game defence/hunting where said bullets are fired into an inert medium. I have no quarrel with those who do, this is just my opinion based on some experience.

To the above: A "drilling" is a three-barreled gun, with, usually, two shotgun barrels above a rifle barrel. There are, usually, two triggers, a separate rifle cocking piece and iron sights plus a QD scope system.

Mine is capable of putting two 1oz. Brenneke slugs and one 286-.366 cal. NP into about 1-2" at 25M. This is a formidable defence weapon, IF repeat IF, you PRACTICE and become TOTALLY familiar with it. The disadvantages are relative fragility, costly maintenance as you DO NOT "fieldstrip" one of these as one would a Mod. 70 and VERY high cost, even used. A decent drilling like mine sells for $4500.00-$7000.00 here in Canada and new would be $12-15K, at least.

I love combo. guns as we can hunt several species of big game plus various birds legally during our long seasons and I have had three and done well with them. But, this is not my first choice for bear defence and I have 30+ big game bolt rifles, all of which I have 3-pos. safeties on which I feel are a better choice.

There is, IMHO, FAR TOO MUCH palaver about the "best" cartridge, bullet(s) and even rifle type. MANY ordinary rifles with Nosler Pt. bullets WILL DO JUST FINE. The .30-06 is a fine choice and the largest Grizzly I can recall seeing killed was with an '06-180 KKSP almost 50 years ago.

I consider the .338WM-250 NP the be as close to "perfect" for BC bear work and I almost always carry one when backpack hunting, old and a bit gimpy as I am. I have never had to use it, but, I am cautious and have faith in this round-bullet, based on through shots on Elk and so on.

FAMILIARITY and being able to SHOOT is what really matter and also using your head to AVOID sudden encounters as most Grizzlies I have encountered were swiftly buggering off and that was just fine with me. Being 75+ miles into roadless wilderness, alone for three months without break and only one flyin supply trip in northern BC forty years ago when if you got hurt, you died, makes a man VERY careful and non-macho where bears are concerned.

This forum reminds me of something an oldtimer told me when I was about 18. I was in Cy's gun shop in Kodiak city. I asked the guy behind the counter if he trusted a .357 for bear defense. He said "Well, if you buy a .357 you need to grind off the front sight" I asked "why, why would I need to do that?" He said "so when one of these big Kodiak brownies gets ahold of it, it wont hurt when he shoves it up your a**." LOL

"Well, having owned three .45-70s and seven .375H&H rifles, with none of the former and two of the latter in my safes now and some 35 years experience with these two rounds and the bullets mentioned-the .458-300 not as long- I kinda doubt that it is equal to the .375-300NP.

I do not put much faith in rigged tests of bullets intended for dangerous game defence/hunting where said bullets are fired into an inert medium. I have no quarrel with those who do, this is just my opinion based on some experience.

To the above: A "drilling" is a three-barreled gun, with, usually, two shotgun barrels above a rifle barrel. There are, usually, two triggers, a separate rifle cocking piece and iron sights plus a QD scope system.

Mine is capable of putting two 1oz. Brenneke slugs and one 286-.366 cal. NP into about 1-2" at 25M. This is a formidable defence weapon, IF repeat IF, you PRACTICE and become TOTALLY familiar with it. The disadvantages are relative fragility, costly maintenance as you DO NOT "fieldstrip" one of these as one would a Mod. 70 and VERY high cost, even used. A decent drilling like mine sells for $4500.00-$7000.00 here in Canada and new would be $12-15K, at least.

I love combo. guns as we can hunt several species of big game plus various birds legally during our long seasons and I have had three and done well with them. But, this is not my first choice for bear defence and I have 30+ big game bolt rifles, all of which I have 3-pos. safeties on which I feel are a better choice.

There is, IMHO, FAR TOO MUCH palaver about the "best" cartridge, bullet(s) and even rifle type. MANY ordinary rifles with Nosler Pt. bullets WILL DO JUST FINE. The .30-06 is a fine choice and the largest Grizzly I can recall seeing killed was with an '06-180 KKSP almost 50 years ago.

I consider the .338WM-250 NP the be as close to "perfect" for BC bear work and I almost always carry one when backpack hunting, old and a bit gimpy as I am. I have never had to use it, but, I am cautious and have faith in this round-bullet, based on through shots on Elk and so on.

FAMILIARITY and being able to SHOOT is what really matter and also using your head to AVOID sudden encounters as most Grizzlies I have encountered were swiftly buggering off and that was just fine with me. Being 75+ miles into roadless wilderness, alone for three months without break and only one flyin supply trip in northern BC forty years ago when if you got hurt, you died, makes a man VERY careful and non-macho where bears are concerned."

So do you feel the .338 Win. Mag in a bolt or BAR is a better charge stopper than a lever 45-70?

If you can't get the job done with this rifle, it probably isn't the rifle's fault.



This 7 foot bear was a one shot instant kill at 246 yards: 45-70, 350 North Fork.



This young boar was killed (DLP) after seven shots on two occasions, both after midnight, failed to deter his attempts to insert himself into our cabin.



This is the slug that failed to stop him, but made him sick enough to trot off and lie down. Two shots from a 45 Colt Carbine finished him, but exited after making longer tracks through his body; both hard 300 grainers.

000shot, I don't know, as I have not had to stop the hordes of rampaging, savage Grizzlies that some seem to encounter. I have found, that for ME, the CRF bolt rifles just feel and shoot better and the cartridge-bullet combos I use have been proven in many situations worldwide in stopping large animals from terminating humans.

I have owned a lot of rifles, these include two Savage 99s, several Win. 94s, a Win. 71, a Win. P-64 Mod. 88, two Marlin 1894CS-,357s, a Marlin 336-.44Mag., a Win Mod. 64 and a Sako Finnwolf, second type as well as a Belgian BLR. I have loaded for most of these, shot them and hunted with most of them. I just cannot do as well with any lever rifle as I can (barely) with the Mod. 70 controls and bolt rifle balance....others are, as I have seen several times, different in this respect.

I also carried 870s, a Win. 97 and have a Benelli Nova with Brennekes and a Browning-Miroku Mod 7500-.308x12 ga. and I still feel best with a bolt rifle. If, I were to return to remote BC bush work alone, I would just use a .338 or 9.3 and call it good.

In seven mountain fire lookouts encompassing a few years of solo bush work in Grizzly counry, ie, just east of Jasper National Park in Alberta, on the BC-AK border, in the Kootenays and so forth, I never once had to shoot a bear. In my time supervising silviculture and wildfire crews, I also never had to do so and, frankly, I am of the caution and preparation school where any bush work-recreation issues are concerned.

I do not care for autoloading guns, I have had quite a few and have a few still, but, I just tend to use what I can handle best and am satisfied with what I now have. So, that is all I can contribute as I am retired and do not expect to work in the weeds again.

Drilling muzzle

I've used the Brennekes plenty enough times for DLP kills that it's generally my first choice especially at night.
The Garrett would be okay too. One of the guys I work with has used Garretts on DLPs too, but you don't need the 540gr load. The 430s work just fine and he actually uses a handloaded 405gr GC load over a healthy dose of H322 these days.

So you have had to stop a grizzly or Brown charge and used the Brenneke to good effect?
Which Brenneke...I was considering the 3" Black Magic if I took my Benelli?
Would feel fine with my Marlin 1895SBL w/ Garretts , Grizzly, Buffalo Bore, CorBon, DoubleTap...but not sure yet if I could followup as quick as with the SG?
Time and several hundreds of rounds will tell?

How many DLP's have you been part of & why...if you don't mind me asking?
What is it you do....again, if I may ask?

OOOshot:

There's more than one path to enlightenment.

But if you were to ask Phil Shoemaker (458Win) about this very topic and then did everything he advised you to do, you would not be making a mistake, IMO.

- Tom

He did ask and I said that of the choices given I would take the 338 BAR with the Marlin as second choice.

Damn. That's a strange looking caribou.

OOOshot:

There's more than one path to enlightenment.

But if you were to ask Phil Shoemaker (458Win) about this very topic and then did everything he advised you to do, you would not be making a mistake, IMO.

- Tom




And I am considering & giving priority & extra "weight" to what Phil said...given his experience & profession...just wanted to hear from others too...
I am glad he picked, out of my list...the BAR .338 Win., just a bit surprised as up until that point I was getting (mostly in other forums...) real big bore Cal. with solid hard cast only...type of feedback?

I like the idea of a semi-auto for quick follow ups and if .338 has heavy enough or good choice of bullet "types", suitable for putting a hurt on a motivated charging bear then that is good enough for me. Ammo should be easy to find anywhere and the energy imparted, at least what I see from ballistic charts certainly puts it ahead of the 45-70 but not the Brenneke Black Magic.

It's a reindeer, Silly!

Oh, my bad.

I think I read that you still carry a .458 WM bolt...I know I did not have that on my list in my OP:
MarlinSBL 45-70 w/Garretts 540gr. SuperHardCast gas-checked Hammerhead
Benelli M4 H2O w/Brenneke Black Magic Slug
Browning BAR .338 w/300gr. Woodleigh Weldcore JSP
Ar15/M4 .458 SOCOM w/405gr. CORBON Self-Defense JSP

...can I ask you why you chose the .458, given that as a hunting round it is more considered a Safari / Big 5 round and overkill for anything in N.A.?
Is it that you think anything under .458 is iffy for Grizzly / Brown bear (defense, not hunting)

my god man

What...???

Please keep these liars north of the border. The wilds of downtown Vancouver is good.
Dewey will your lies never end?

was that your post...or repeating another?

Just learn bear.

Phil, I just wonder what you think would happen if a bear got close and it was tasered. Some places I hunt do not allow firearms in archery season. thanks

Maybe if you used a high tension power line, ol...
...kidding.
I am still looking forward to hear from Phil...on why he chose the .458 WM for his BUG? He told me from the list in my OP...he would take the BAR in .338 WM 1st, then the Marlin 45-70 2nd. I had the .458 on my list, but as a SOCOM AR

Phil, and other folks who guide bear hunters, spend part of their time doing follow-up work on wounded bears. Their's can be a task of 1-3 seconds (or more) of high drama with plenty of uncertainty and stress, but high alert status, woven throughout. One's ideal weapon in that situation isn't necessarily the most ideal for being out and about in bear country. Perhaps the more important attribute of the 'out and about' bear weapon IMO&E is it's friendliness for carry and handling when not on 'high alert'. ('Cause no sane person stays on high alert for long periods effectively without that being/becoming a full-time job.)

In my neck of the woods, a dangerous bear encounter is either most probably going to be one with virtually no warning (unlikely), or it will be one where you are aware of the situation, often rather benign, for some time before it turns dangerous or deadly. Paying attention to one's surroundings, knowing what to look for (and how), but especially listening, and smelling, something that becomes almost second nature through time and exposure, can be useful in avoiding surprises. Looking for trouble out of ignorance is never great way to reach one's 'golden years.'

Sounds like sound advice from someone close to it.Thanks.

Thanks. I would normally think the BAR in 338 real nice, but I saw one, in great condition, in 30-06 jam for no apparent reason that I could determine.

hmmm...well any gun can jam any time...but may take less time to clear a jam in a manual action bolt/lever...I will compare when I get my BAR?

[/quote] Phil, I just wonder what you think would happen if a bear got close and it was tasered. Some places I hunt do not allow firearms in archery season. thanks [/quote]

I don't go where firearms are not allowed, weather in the woods or town. Two or four legged predators.

Marlin 45-70 would be my first and only choice from your list, there's not a semi-auto made by man that I would trust with my life.

My personal choice Winchester Model 70 CRF 50 B&M Super Short with Cutting Edge BBW#13 375 gr. at 2100 fps. with a 16" barrel.

I have worked in SE Alaska and used to see bears everyday. I have 60 encounters I wrote down once, and many more that I can't recall. The responses on this thread are way ahead of others out there. The biggest caliber you can accurately shoot with bullets that will hold together is the simple answer. You cannot be overgunned when a bear with a hump closes on you full of adrenaline. A .45-70 loaded up is a good choice for some people. I like the large caliber handguns like .454 Casull and up because they are always on your person even if you are fishing. Avoiding bears is the important skill to learn. Make noise in deep brush, don't camp on a sand bar covered with tracks, don't sleep with your food etc. I was sleeping in Alberta once and woke with a sow black bear 8 inches from my head with nothing between us but mosquito netting. I know it was a sow because she came back later with 2 cubs and did it again.

This is one of my favorite stories of the 45-70 on Coastal Brown Bears by a Master Guide in Alaska and African LPH.....



Mr. Garrett, I am a Master Guide in Alaska and a Licensed Professional Hunter in Africa. I have made a full time living as guide since 1975 and have over the years tested the bullets from every major bullet maker and from most of the custom bullet makers. I chose to use your 45-70 ammo because it is by far the best. I do not believe that any better load exists to go into thick brush after a wounded Grizzly.

When my 8 year old son (Jason) decided that he wanted to hunt Grizzly with me on the Alaska Peninsula I was pleased as he had decided this on his own with no prompting from me. (I do not believe in pushing kids into doing what the parents do) This became a goal that the two of us shared together as a father and son team. Over 9 months we prepared for his hunt. Lots of target practice for him with a 22. We spent last winter cross country skiing and practicing shooting from a variety of real life field conditions.

I had unlimited choices of rifles and calibers that my son could use. I have custom rifles in medium and big bore up to 470 Nitro. We also have friends with custom rifles made for kids that wanted to loan some very fine rifles to Jason. We decided on Jason using a factory rifle, the Marlin Guide Rifle in 45-70. The only modifications that were made was installation of peep sights, 2" cut off the stock and a decelerator pad installed. Dry fire practice and getting into kneeling and prone positions was the first thing Jason worked on with the 45-70. After he was proficient at that I let him fire a few factory 405 gr. loads from a kneeling position. I needed to see if he could handled the recoil. Jason did okay but it was too much for him to practice with. After that I only let him used the rifle with a 45 ACP adapter made by MCA Sports. This adapter let him shoot 45 pistol ammo and practice a lot so he did not develop a flinch. We never used a bullseye target for his practice. We used a paper archery target of a life sized grizzly standing broad side. No aiming point to see so he had to learn to target on the shoulder himself.

The end result is that 9 year old Jason shot a beautiful 8' 7" Grizzly with your 45-70 ammo. From 45 yards the 540 gr. bullet struck the bear broadside in the left shoulder. Breaking the shoulder, going through the rib cage on both sides and breaking the right shoulder, then exiting the bear. This was a devastating blow to a tough animal. The bear made one jump when hit then collapsed dead 18 feet from where he was standing.

Thank you for making the excellent ammo that helped make my son's hunt a success.

- Jerry XXXXXXX

Jayco

Here is another to the testament of the 45-70 with my friend Randy Garrett and his ammo and stopping the charge....



"This grizzly was killed in Spatsizi Plateau Wilderness Park in the Eagle Nest Mountain Range of Northern British Columbia. He squared over 8 feet and the skull measured 23 13/16'', which is very good size for an interior mountain grizzly bear. When I shot the bear, he had started a charge from about 70 yards away, and by the time I had a sight on him, he was 40 yards. The 540 Hammerhead hit him right between the front legs, and he did a complete front-wards flip after the bullet hit him. That bullet completely penetrated him lengthwise and exited. I made a follow up shot (which was unnecessary, just instinct) after he rolled which angled through the chest, took out a section of spine, and exited the top of his skull (if you look closely at the photo you can see the exit hole in his head). Very impressive bullet performance."

- Tyler XXXXX, British Columbia

Jayco

logcutter,
Nice job of documenting what happens in real life. Do you think those shot could be made again?
What if the charge starts at 30 yards like the typical situation in SE? I still think more is better.

I think so without worry..A couple more Bear kills with Garrett 45-70 ammo.







Jayco

I do have a couple boxes of Buffalo Bore 350 grain Speers at 2150 fps but never shot Grizzly ammo...

The difference is,Marlin Firearms stood behind Garrett ammunition in there 45-70's as the SAAMI for the 45-70 is 28,000 and Garretts are just over that..Buffalo Bore and Grizzly have way/way higher pressures than Garretts.I have seen the numbers but won't repeat it.

Naw,Randy is just a good friend.

Jayco

WOW! That bear's head is bigger than your torso!

I carried a .444 Marlin years ago because that is what I had. After doing some research it is obvious you guys are on to something. Thanks for the great posts. Lately I have been carrying my great uncles Model 71 in .348. What do think of those guns compared to your new heavy loads for the .45-70?

I don't know how that compares...but I think I have settled on for hunting w/scope
I will go with .338 BAR and for defense or backing up another hunter the largest bore I can shoot like the 45-70 or a downloaded .458 WM.

I doubt that's a picture of him.

ppine -

A few years back some gunwriter wrote about how a Marlin .45-70 drove a hardcast (Garrett Hammerhead, I think) completely through TWO cape buffalo. How much "more" do you need?

That writer was Brian Pearce. I've talked with him several times at the Boise Gun Shows and he told me that he could not see the second Cape Buffalo behind the first. That's how the bullet went through the first and also killed the second.

L.W.

I wish I had the rest of the article.



Jayco

I think bear defense is about shutting down the run and then getting to Cutler


oh, those bears


use enough gun, practice with it enough that it becomes second nature to you.

for hunting bears I used a mod 700 in .338 with a Leupy 1.75x6 and Barnes 225 gr. TBB

for hunting someone elses bear in thick brush I used the Marlin(customized by WWG) in .45/70 with .405 gr. hard cast bullets

I;ve never felt under gunned, until I was sneaking through alders looking for wounded bears.....in those moments you really wonder why you've never purchased a .500 H&H, they seem really inexpensive at those times and it seems a no brainer that everyone should own one....... for a few minutes anyway.

logcutter,
Thanks for the heads up on the new loads available for the .45-70. It was very enlightening to get up to date on what is available. I found hot loads for the .348, .30-06, and .44 mag also. The .45-70 is becoming popular in Africa and rightly so.

I have had to stop them with my 30-06 and it works as well now as it has for the past 100 years.



And I have used a number of other cartridges as well but my favorite is still my 458

Good stuff Phil.

Phil, in all fairness, there ain't many out there who can hold a candle to your experience. You know waaaayyyy better than most exactly where to hold and shoot. You would be far more likely than any of us to keep your cool in a harsh spot with a bear and that is what makes a 30-06 plenty enough. I still question why hardcast bullets folks seem to like in 45/70's. Would any of you hunt a bear with a .458 Win Magnum solids??? I prefer to use a lead slug that will expand AND penetrate. After seeing my moose and my buffler dumped by 45 cal slugs at 30:1 at 1400 and the penetration WITH expansion (36" INCLUDING fir filled moose paunch) I wouldn't hesitate to use one of those.

I agree that large bore, hard cast lead bullets are still as effective as ever. I feel perfectly well armed with my Brn 86 45-70 stuffed with 430 gr buffalo Bore loads.

After reading all the advice...and talking to those mauled and charged...I think I will go with both (2 guys or more...) the Marlin SBL 45-70 w/Garrett's 540gr. Hammerhead load and dumbed down .458 hand loads.
( cThe consensus on most forums is that Garrett makes the best factory ammo for the 45-70).. I have been shown that hand load "down", the .458 WM to near the hot loads of the 45-70., and the lower MV w/heavy bullets produce deeper penetration... no need for full magnum .458 factory loads.

Sead once will say twice LEARN bear.

I wonder what Elmer Keith would say about the cast bullets available in loaded ammunition?His load for the 45-70 was IMR-3031 with a 405 grain cast...

He new some about bear hunting also and said this:

After well over 40 years of bear hunting,including 30 years of guiding bear hunters,I have come to expect the unexpected.Bears are individuals just like human animals.Some are good natured individuals,at least until wounded while others are old soreheads hunting for trouble all the time.Some will take a lot of punishment and still try to get away.Others will charge at the first sting of a slug,if it does not disable them.Still others,probably one in 50,will charge unprovoked and to the finish.

I have known over 25 men who have been mauled by bears and lived.Several of them were in very sorry shape for the rest of there lives.All were terribly scarred and disfigured for the rest of there lives.(One lives here in Salmon: Lee Bradley who was nearly killed by a little black bear-blacks,as a matter of fact killed three men in Alaska in one year.)

Jayco

Hey rummy! Still waiting for your address...

You have a PM..Let's rock...

Jayco

That's what I thought....

Rancho_Loco has removed themself from this topic.

A long with a gay wrestling photo.

Jayco

You're all over that gay wrestling site, aren't you?

Send me your address.. Some boys on there are going to be very interested.

"Sead"...what is that?
"LEARN bear"...what is this some kind of windtalker code, lol?

I sent you my e-mail address and want to keep it ,non public..Just e-mail me to start the ball rolling..That's all..By e-mail not a public forum and were on............

If you had a brain,and you don't,you could find my name/address and other things available to the public.

You are ruining this thread by your childish behavior..Shut up/be a man and let's keep it off the forum publicly ruining it for others...You started this here right now,now be a man and finish it.

Jayco

Its "kawi-speak"...


You'll learn to love it...

+1.

Just a little off topic but the Wolves here are eating all the bears...

This 180 lb Wolf(weighed by fish and game) was shot just North of here by a 19 year old from Coeurd'alene, and he was well fed.



Bears/Wolves/Cougars all pose a threat to hunters.....

Jayco

Wolves eating all the bears? 180 lbs wolves? Where do you get this info? FYI the heaviest live wolf ever weighed in this state was in the 135 lb range. I highly doubt any of them are gaining 50 lbs when they die.

This thread has gotten SO FAR off topic...?
Incomprehensible posts and personal squabbles that I have no idea what is going on...I guess as the OP, if no one has anything else to add about this topic, I will ask that it be closed?

TheTone

From the Coer d'Alene press.

Wolf Coeur d'Alene, Idaho hunter Brett Pitcher has been hunting wolves with his dad, Bob, in the St. Joe National Forest since the season started, and Monday he caught up with his first one. The 180-pound male fell to a single shot from Pitcher's 7mm Remington. Are the hunters concerned about receiving harassing e-mails and phone calls from Idaho wolf advocates? "We take those as compliments," said Bob. The Coeur d'Alene Press.

Just quoting what was written in the local paper in CDA.Nothing more or less.Killing the Bears in Idaho was in tongue and cheek only, except
My wife and I have seen one treed by Wolves who quickly scattered as we approached.

Jayco

Good morning Ron.

I read the same article in the state journal, the 180 lbs was quoted as the estimate from the hunter. Once again, the heaviest ever weighed in this state have made it to about 135 lbs. These 180-200 lb super wolves do not exist except in fantasies.

Good morning Dave.Stealhead fishing today if the river isn't over the road.The big thaw has hit...Maybe I can snag a spring Black Bear floating by.

Woke to snow back on the ground here...Hope all is well with you and yours.

Jayco

Slim odds that it actually did weigh 180#. I don't doubt that it's a big woof, nonetheless.



79.4 Kg = 174.68 lbs.




http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/175081/biggest-wolf-on-record-shot-dead-report