Let me explain what happened. About 20 years ago I was at the Laguna Seca rifle Range. When we had a cease-fire I asked the guy to my right what he was shooting. He said it was a 6.5X55 Swedish Mauser.

He spent the next 10 to 15 minutes bragging about the rifle it was his father's. At the next cease-fire he again spent 10 to 15 minutes bragging about the rifle.

Then when we started shooting again he noticed I had a chonograph so I let him take a shot through it. Velocity was a little bit over 2400 ft./s. He wanted to know if that was accurate so I let them shoot again. Same results a little bit over 2400 ft./s.

About seven months later I saw him at the range. But now he was shooting a different rifle. I asked him what he was shooting and he said 7MM Remington Magnum. I asked him what he did with the Swedish Mauser.

He said "Oh that POS, I got rid of it."

The fool.....

Modern gun rags' obsession with velocity & long range shooting has messed peoples' expectations up pretty badly I think.

Plus it sounds like what he chrono'd was anemic American ammo.

Funny the psychology of such things.

I have a buddy who loves to weigh his pack before we go backpacking and I refuse to until we return. It'd jack with my head.

Same kind of thing IMHO. Doubt 90% of hunters would ever see a difference between a Swede and a 7RM in their hunting experience.

I think he was using factory ammo. I was actually thinking about starting this thread with the title "Perceived Velocity vs. Actual Velocity." However, I thought the current title would grab more peoples attention.

The 6.5 Swede has accounted for train loads of Moose and Red Deer in Europe. I love the caliber.

You should have chrono'd his 7mm mag. then you could have bought it from him cheap.

My buddy and I bought a chrony together. We've chrony'ed different guns at the range. Biggest 's low shooters' IIR were 25-06 and 7 Rem mag. 270s were erratic. Most surprising to me is the 7-08, 26" barrel varmint special shot 140 Hornady light mags, at 2990 something. That's less than 10fps below advertised. Captdavid

My biggest eye-opener was my 30-30. I was getting almost 200 ft./s less than the advertised velocity. I immediately brought that to the attention of my Gunsmith. Then he said " those reloading manuals are optimistic."

He asked me if I was satisfied with the results (on Deer) with the 30-30. I said "Yes!"

Then he said "Deer are killed with bullets. Not what a realoading manual or a Chonograph says."

Your gunsmith is/was very astute, and right.

Re: 30-30s in reloading manuals; many of them have velocities from 24" barrels. Most .30-30s have 20" barrels.

That's funny and likely true.

Those Hornady 7-08 light magnum loads were fast, and their Superformance ammo shot over 3000 fps in a 7-08 I have that has a 24" barrel.

What a fool.

I have 2 of those POS and really considering a new Tikka T3X Stainless Hunter as a third.

^

The furthest I've killed a deer with a 7 RM is about 200 yards. With a 6.5x55 it's right on 400. 7 RM must be a short range caliber.

The longest shot I've made on a deer was two years ago, 150 yards. The longest shot I could've made was about 400 yards. That was over 40 years ago. However, a 30/30 is not a long range firearm, and I could not get closer.

"Mauser" and "POS" don`t mix.

For many years, my go-to hunting rifle was a Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine in 7X57. I shot 140-grain Barnes bullets (the old copper jacket ones) in it.

Over the years, I killed many pickup loads of deer with the rifle and about ten elk (plus a few black bears and antelope).

It killed fabulously and I simply knew that I was slinging the 140 Barnes at 2,900 fps. After all, that's what my Belding and Mull manual said.

Then Oehler announced his chronographs and after a few years I bought one. Little black box and you shot through silver foil screens and clicked the dial, recorded the numbers and looked up the velocity in a booklet/

Surprise!!! My wunderkind was shooting 140s at a whopping 2,550 fps.

I simply kept killing with the rifle. Hey, it worked ... and, after all that is WHAT MATTERS.

kd

A lot of people are caught up in trying to get the last 10 fps out of a cartridge. You can only kill an animal dead, not dead plus 1or 2.

If he was shooting the old Remington 175 gr. factory loads he may have given it up REAL cheap.........

What a moron. Probably drove there in a shiny sports car too. Never chrony'd a lot of loads. Only to check SD of the powder I was using and it wasn't mine. I simply shoot and load whatever is accurate and appropriate for whatever I'm hunting. Velocity is the least of my concerns.

not sure if my story resonates with the OP's topic but I was at the local range a few years back and there was one table that was producing the loudest "bang" among all of those tables. When cease fire was called, all walked to the target to get their targets and I had my son go get our target and the owner of the loudest bang at the table walked away and I took a walk over there and looked at her ammo box and it was a 7 Remington Mag. I hardly see these calibers at the range as most places around here is not a long shot at least locally.

Then when we were given the "go" to shoot I glanced over and the person at loudest "bang" table was an elderly lady probably in her 45's to 50's and it surprised me. Not sure why she bought that or whoever sold that to her. When when she shot the rifle I noticed her barrel was resting on the block of wood...the block was not under the stock. I immediately knew she did not know how to shoot properly nor know proper technique for shooting :-) so much for having the loudest bang at the range!

Have a chopped Swede still carrying its 109 year old military barrel. Put together some ladder loads and every round was inside 1 moa all the way into the point where I was getting pressure indications.

It was initially purchased to be a truck gun. No way! Getting it tricked out and it will live in the safe.

[quote=valad]
Then when we were given the "go" to shoot I glanced over and the person at loudest "bang" table was an elderly lady probably in her 45's to 50's and it surprised me.

ELDERLY!!! Am I the only one that picked up on this. Why you young whipper snapper insulting a young woman n her prime.
Signed
Old codger over 60.

Kids these days !!!!!...... (67)

My eyes are pretty damn good but I can't always tell if a bullet is traveling at 2500fps or 3000.

Last yr. I graphed some PRVI 140 ammo from my 70 with 22" bll. My graph is an Oehler 33, distance 15' from muzzle.

2200 + fps. / it's not just American ammo.

Jerry

I killed my first dozen deer with a bow and a 30/30. My records indicate a 30/30 has less than 1000 foot pounds of energy at 200 yards. However, the Swede has about 1500 foot-pounds at 200 yards. And I would use a 30/30 at 200 yards or less. So I do consider the Swede more than adequate for deer. I have nothing bad to say about the Swede. It is not a magnum but in my experience you do not need a magnum for deer.

In the past, (sitting at camp) whenever somebody quotes which rifle or caliber is the best for deer, I always remember my results with a 30/30. I have had a few heated discussions. Here is what I have found out. Usually a person that has never used a 30/30 on deer, badmouths, everything except the gun/caliber that they are using.

Do I consider the 30/30 a good cartridge at 200 yards or less. NO! I consider it an excellent cartridge! There is an old saying " You can't argue with success!" And the Swede is better than a 30/30.

I once read a short story where a fellow had a fish scale in his tackle box . His buddy,s kid caught a nice bass and was thrilled that his big bass had to weigh at least 5-6 lbs. his buddy borrowed the scale & when they weighed it it was about 3 1/2 lbs and the Kid was crushed . The story teller stated that he dropped the scale over the side and hasn't weighed a fish since, saying if a man thinks he caught and is thrilled with a 5 lb bass I don't care if it's 8" long I'm happy for him.. Though I have one I regard chronographs the same way.

For sure. I've only killed a buck at 150 yards with my 300 Win, mag. It's a real short range gun.

And he road the short bus home...

If you fool with rifles and chronographs long enough, you'll find that the "advertised" load thing is pretty much a myth. I've seen some loads "under preform" by a bunch, and some "over preform" by a like amount. For some reason, my 243's most always seem to do better than what the manuals claim while the 7-08 often does less. But, when the dust is settled and smoke has cleared, there are a lot more important factors than a few more fps of velocity.

In 50 plus years of shooting/hunting I've yet to crony a load.

If it works, it works. It's up to me to position it. I don't need to obsess over speed.

Good groups, bullet construction/performance, and knowing the trajectory of the round is far more important than speed.

The crony will only tell you how it should perform according to the charts. You still have to shoot it at ranges.
The other thing it might tell you is the consistency of your loads, which can be a good thing. Again provable otherwise by actual shooting.

I cut out the chrony middleman....tho I do use the factory statistics and charts- which seldom exactly match the gun/me /range live shoots.

Wow!

David

Yes David +2

Add this to that.

bangeye
Campfire Guide


"I once read a short story where a fellow had a fish scale in his tackle box . His buddy,s kid caught a nice bass and was thrilled that his big bass had to weigh at least 5-6 lbs. his buddy borrowed the scale & when they weighed it it was about 3 1/2 lbs and the Kid was crushed . The story teller stated that he dropped the scale over the side and hasn't weighed a fish since....
Though I have one I regard chronographs the same way."
------------------

If one is hunting in woods/short range velocity (speed) isn't very important. But....

Jerry

Used to hunt with a 7mm Rem mag. One day I decided to run the 140 gr Remington factory load over the chronograph.

3225 fps...

I was impressed. I didn't hunt with it a long time, but everything I shot was also impressed. Kinda zippy!

Regards, Guy

I chronograph a 30/378, 180 grain factory ammo. Got 3,200 FPS. Which is (I believe) what the factory claimed. I was impressed. I told the owner that the recoil was about the same as my 30/06. Then I asked him if he ever shot the rifle without the muzzle brake.

He said "Yes, once, then I flinched for a month!"

I have a bull elk in my freezer that will say otherwise.

6.5 anything is accurate and hit hard. Even though velosity seems weak compared to other rounds. I honestly wish that I started shooting 6.5's sooner.

I blew mine up, felt really bad about it until I heard who else in this world has blown up a rifle. 1926 made I believe, "butchered" and I had to replace the replacement safety it came with. But it shot well and truck gun was my plan also as I only had about $210 into it.

I have 1918 Gustaf in full military garb that I had planned on "customizing". Purchased in the 90's for $85 from Big-5. Had a B Square no gunsmithing mount and a cheap Simmons 4x pistol scope mounted on it and it shot Remington 140's quite accurately. As in a +/- 2" three shot group at 200 yds. As the value of the original military versions keeps going up I can't bring myself to "sporterize" it.

Not when I have 6.5x55 bbl for another rifle I own and it shoots even better than the old girl.

Someday even more 6.5x55's might find their way into my locker.................. I hope.

Geno

Hello David. Would you mind explaining what is "Wow" about las post?

Sure.

I don't think I've ever read so much stupidity regarding the use of a chronograph in such a short post.

David

David, it's not my intent to be picky about the comment, but I don't yet understand your "wow" about "stupidity".

las said this: "I don't need to obsess over speed. Good groups, bullet construction/performance, and knowing the trajectory of the round is far more important than speed."
Kindly explain any stupidity in that statement.

las said: "The crony will only tell you how it should perform according to the charts. You still have to shoot it at ranges. The other thing it might tell you is the consistency of your loads, which can be a good thing. Again provable otherwise by actual shooting."
Kindly explain any stupidity in that statement.

If there is something else in las post that is stupid, it would be nice to see explanation of that.

Thanks.

I think what David is missing here is that las is a been there, done that kinda guy. Might has something to do with decades of killing lots of game up above the Arctic Circle. Nothing wrong with using a chronograph, he doesn't and it works for him. Maybe them monster cajun bucks only react to projectiles launched at a particular speed.

CCCC & Ptarmigan,

I see ya'll are begging to get into it, allow me to provide a more detailed response:

In 50 plus years of shooting/hunting I've yet to crony a load. If it works, it works. It's up to me to position it. I don't need to obsess over speed.


I have zero disagreement with this. Lots of game killed over the years without the use of a chronograph, and I certainly don't obsess over speed.


Good groups, bullet construction/performance, and knowing the trajectory of the round is far more important than speed.
The crony will only tell you how it should perform according to the charts. You still have to shoot it at ranges.

Maybe you could make a case for this argument back when you couldn't buy a scope that tracked reliably, chrony's were less accurate and BC's were estimated instead of measured. With an accurate chrony and a reliable measured BC the trajectory will be precisely mapped out. With reliable scopes that actually track the prescribed amount, accurate range finders and bullets with known reliable BC's I can shoot a zero at 100ydss and make first round hits out to my max available range of 700yds.

If you don't know the velocity of your round you're just guessing. Fundamentally more important, you're guessing about wind drift as that is a function of time of flight, wind vector(s) and BC. As long as your practice includes 2 uncontrolled variables you will have a fundamentally difficult time - easily eliminated with a relatively cheap chronograph.

The other thing it might tell you is the consistency of your loads, which can be a good thing. Again provable otherwise by actual shooting. I cut out the chrony middleman....tho I do use the factory statistics and charts- which seldom exactly match the gun/me /range live shoots.

A chronograph provides a lot more data to the handloader than just the consistency of their loads.

No kidding! The factory charts aren't reliable?!?!? Wonder why that is? If you had ever used a chronograph you would know why.







I have zero problem with anyone that doesn't want buy / use a chronograph. Certainly you can kill a lot of game w/o pushing the limits on range and loads can be worked up w/o a chronograph. But to imply that a chronograph doesn't provide any useful information is just ignorant. Those statements are boldy offered from someone that has never used a chronograph.

Wow!

David

Begging to get into it? You get wowed pretty easily. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you like to wow yourself pretty often too. Thanks for the laugh! Meanwhile las will keep piling up game...

Speaking of getting wowed easily,,,,

Didn't realize las was a hero of yours, sorry if disagreeing with a post he made on a discussion forum made you uncomfortable.

David

WOW?

Hey look - another post where you wisely chose not to discuss anything regarding the use of chronographs! I'm starting to understand why you feel the need to defend las's ignorance.

Bless your heart.

David

I don't care about the use of chronographs in regards to this conversation. I was just beating around the bush getting to the point that you sound like a dick. Pretty sure I've zeroed right in. Thanks for the blessing.

I was not begging to get into anything - simply could not understand any basis your "wow" and "stupid" remarks. And, still I don't. You did not point out a single "stupid" thing in las post.

The chronograph tells me one simple thing - the fps velocity of the bullet passing through the screens. Every other piece of information "told" to me depends upon loading data and my own comparative measures (instead might use BC/efficiency charts prepared by others).

General trajectory in terms of bullet rise/drop is not difficult to determine without a chronograph if one carefully uses load data and a few well-spaced targets Even with a fps reading from my Chrony, I still need to deal with height of sight above bore and a few other common issues, none of which depend on the chronograph.

Unless I am willing to move the chrono out to progressively greater distances and manage to shoot through the screens appropriately at 50, 100, 150, 200, 250 yards etc., the device in front of me tells one simple thing. Maybe you move yours out, and out, and out, etc. That would be a different case.

I never criticize anyone who uses a chronograph, or anyone who does not. There is nothing "stupid" in either case.

I see.

So your entire point of contention is that I said something negative about one of las's posts - regardless of how wrong he was?


HaHa!


I'm sure this isn't the first dick you've zeroed right in on.


David

Your own ignorance is clouding your judgement - you're making statements based on facts that just ain't so. Reread my post carefully and compare it to what you wrote. If you can't figure it out from there I don't think I can help you, you either don't comprehend or more likely don't want to.

I didn't criticize las for not using a chronograph - lots of people don't. Lots of people don't use optic sights at all, don't use metallic cartridges, etc...

This wasn't a point of contention about how luddite a system can be and work to kill game. las was making it clear that a chronograph doesn't supply any useful information and that's why he doesn't use one. He's wrong on both counts.

David

How in hell did we ever kill anything without a chronograph?

My two POS Swedes......



Steyr Mannlicher Classic, 6.5 x 55


Got this one in last week. Hope to blood it later this week on a hoglet or two using 156 gr. Norma Oryx.



Sako Bavarian, 6.5 x 55.


Ain't killed no trophy critters with it yet



but it works just fine when it comes to makin' meat!



ya!



GWB

geedub......you still rock! Sweet!

As par- very nice.

Is the M-S a set trigger? Came close to getting one like that.....seemed to have a high/higher comb in a strong euro style and I wondered how the cheek weld would be...on GBO.

Does the Sako B shoot as well?

geedubya, great pictures as always. I do believe your gun room must be something to behold. The 156 gr Oryx works in the 264 WM too by the way, need to try them in our 260 and 6.5x55 too by the looks of it.

Yes, this Steyr has the set trigger. I have had several CZ's with set triggers, four Sakos w/ set trigger, but this one is almost too light. I've only shot it for 2 3-shot groups with the Norma factory ammo. The second group I did not use the set trigger. It's plenty light. I'm off to my lease and taking it with me, I'll use a pull gauge on it to see what both the set and regular trigger break at.

The Sako Bavarin is a sub-inch rifle, on the bench, using my 130 gr. Accubond "pet" loads. If I was a better shot, It might just cloverleaf. So far I've not missed anything I've pointed at.



100 yds.





and after adjustment, and cold barrel @ 100 yds




Most stuff I shoot is 200 yds and under so that works for me.!

ya!


GWB

My bad, make that one three shot group for the Steyr. Got mixed up with another rifle......



+/- 1.55 inches center to center. Shots 1 & 2 are with the set trigger. Shot three is not using the set.

I purchased this from the original owner for whom Steyr custom built the rifle. He did not clean the barrel before he shipped it to me and I did not clean it myself. IMHO most barrels are cleaned way to often, need to be fouled in, and then are good for at least 75 rounds or more.

I have some 130 gr. Accubonds, 140 gr. Sierras and some 160 Gr. Sierras that I will try to see if it likes any one of those better than another.

ya!


GWB

You write as though you are an expert on my ignorance and my judgment, as well as my willingness to learn. Some folks are experts on those topics, but you know nothing about those - or me in general. Not a good start.

In an effort to redeem yourself, you might try to identify and dismantle those "statements based on facts that just ain't so".

I did not seek your help, so don't feel too bad about your inability to deliver any.

What I asked for was your justification for labeling las interesting post as "stupid". You have not justified that critique. Bad form.

Just the opposite of your above statement, las did note some usefulness of a chronograph. You can read it in his post.

I may remember your posting the next time I set up my Chrony.

CCCC

I addressed every point in my post, If you want to address any specific comment I made, feel free to quote it and adress it individually. Always amusing to see old men get offended because texhnology has outpaced them, but they are clinging to the technology that was new and innovative for their era. The world won't stop spinning just because you don't want to keep up - it ain't all waiting on you.


David

GWB - had a K1-A that shot 1.1 @200 using Lapua and IIRC 45.5 H4350 under 130 ABs. Check that load but pretty sure that's correct. Using a G4 FX-III/3. Flattened a WT around 275 yds

Your Sako shoots just fine. Wish I'd tried my NIB 75 SS Lam Varmint 260 before selling. A 75 Gray Wolf shot 1.25 @200 using FC 308 and 7/08 brass. First 2 went in the same hole. Time and again. H4350 (44) and 130AB. Scope for range work was a Leupold 6.5-20x50 Euro

geedub,
Love those Swedes of yours. I'm thinking of a Bavarian in 6.5X55 one of these days. If I find myself wavering on that, I will just take another look at your pics on this thread.

You don't seem to reason very well, and your spelling needs some work. I have no problem with what you posted about your use of a chronograph, so see no need to quote your post or critique those aspects. Did I (adress?) that OK?

You wrote, wrote, etc. but NEVER have you justified your sleazy comments to las and your calling his post "stupid". You avoid that key challenge like it is a plague. Are you ready to admit you erred in what you said about his post?

And, do you see yourself as a mind reader? Nice if you are "amused", but not in any way can you determine if or how I might be offended because your (texhnology?) has passed me by. Tell me, please, am I offended when using the latest Oehler chronograph and applying that simple MVfps number to work calculations? Goodness sakes - how about when I use a Smarty tuner for my Cummins diesel engine and a CNC device to make something?

I do know folks who will:

take offense when some seeming know-it-all type posts baseless nasty comments about other contributors;

take offense because seeming know-it-all types pretend that they can see inside the minds and feelings of others;

take offense when seeming know-it-all types think that their way is the only au courant way to be;

take offense when seeming know-it-all types use poor spelling.

I choose not to be offended by those behaviors - and try to consider the source.

Would you like to see some photos of my 6.5x55 Swedish rifles and some nice 200 yard groups worked up without the aid of a chronograph?

CCCC, there are many reasons why I have had him on "ignore" for a long time. Glad to see that most are still valid.

Well, mudhen, thanks. Guess I have not encountered Canazes9 before - and it took a thread on the lousy old 6.5x55 to make it happen.

Looks like I'm way too old and behind the tech curve to catch on to these guys. Finally stumbled there.

Best to you.

Everything my wife has killed with her 6.5x55 hasn't taken a step. Maybe he isn't as good a shot as her.

He's just one of the Campfire clowns that likes to argue....

CCCC


Sorry about the spelling, sometimes I miss a key when typing in a hurry on th ipad! Just checking into see if you wanted to discuss any specifics - see you are wisely steering clear of all relevant subject matter, but that's what I expected.


David

This old fogey can't think of anything relevant or worth discussing about what you posted other than the fact that I can use a top quality chrono when interested in a snapshot of MV.
OTOH, he world seems to be wondering when you are going to provide self-justification for your miserable post about las.

CCCC

You argue like a liberal - nothing substantive, just imagined offense. It's really quite amusing to watch you work yourself into a progressively bigger snit over the perceived slander to las. At least Ptarmigan straight up admitted his sole reason for posting was to pitch a fit.

David

I bought my chrony to check the velocity of a 257 JDJ, contender barrel. The expected velocity was around 2500 fps, but the chrony recorded just under 5000 fps. I wish I would have keeped it as it was to show off the the max velocity crowd, but I sent it back for calibration.

They're very pretty cow pies!

And only demonstrated ignorance and stupidity while never proving it with regard to las or his statement.

I actually explained things quite clearly. Feel free to refute what I wrote - or ask for help with any of the big words.

David

You still have to shoot at known distances to figure out POI. Doesn't matter how fast your bullet is going if you don't practice at comfortable distances, you wont know where it is going to hit, even with a chronograph.

Help me! I've fallen and I can't get up....

If you can't see the Flaw in that Slaw, you won't be able to think your way out of a paper bag !

Knowing the velocity eliminates a lot of guessing and saves components.

I'm not going any farther.

Jerry

So,,,,,,,,,, all of the targets that I shot groups at 200 and 300 yards dont mean squat if I didnt shoot them through a chrono?

I for one admire people like Las. There is a difference between education and wisdom. Education is filling your world with 10,000 useless things when only 3 of them are actually needed. Wisdom is being smart enouph to weed out all the useless bullshit. So you have a chrono and Las doesn't. The only difference is you both likely eat the same amount of wild game, one fella just has an extra $100 in his pocket. ☺

Back to the subject, I'm liking my 6.5X55 swede a lot. Its easy on the shoulder, doesn't require a lot of powder, has a great selection of good bullets to choose from, and is enouph to get the job 100% done if you do your part. That's a good place to be IMHO.


Trystan

David, Perhaps you might also be surprised at 'the stupidity' of those, I venture to say, "more than a few" who have killed our truckloads of game without worrying about whether the scope tracks...because we never touch it after it is sighted in where we want it. (What the hell does a hunter need turrets for anyway?)

And ...... have never pointed a rangefinder at an animal before the crosshairs of the scope get so directed.

But yeah, I have owned and used chronographs for over 30 years, but many of the loads I use to hunt with have never been chronyed .... can't really say why but they work every bit as well as anything I used before I owned a chrony.

My Dad can beat your Dad up. There. We are done. Please stop bickering like kids in the backseat of a 1960's station wagon.

Your dad will need to exhume my dad if he's going to pummel him......might be more trouble than he wants or needs....

But the point that las was being taken to task for is still quite defensible especially considering that this thread was started around a cartridge which is hardly a contender for being in top-three contention as "the best" (arguably). (I will admit that I love my 6.5 Swede M70 anyway.)

I'd rather excoriate las for shooting a 17" barreled 30-06, but he likes it, so who am I to say what's good for him?

I won't fault Canazes. Anyone can have a bad day. I personally look forward to much of what he says and the angle that he does know the man knows very well. Trying to blend those lines into Las's world sure isn't going to go well though. Lol

For anyone who's been in Las's shoes however, it is an uncomplicated form of getting it 100% done and often with ease. Las likely lives in wooded terrain such as I. I've killed freezers apon freezers full of game with loads that I never Chronoed. For the last 10 years or so however a good buddy brings his chrono to the range and chronoes some of my loads for me. Funny thing is I already pretty much had my velocities pegged based on trajectory that I had recorded. I haven't put anymore game in the freezer either.

As far as shooting long range? I've got a load I've been stretching out to 700 yds with a 143 eld. According to trajectory I'm pushing that load about 2780 ish. When I put it to the chrono I'll bet I'm within 20 fps. For the record I do intend to buy a chrono this year but only for the sake of useing recorded velocity as a pressure indicator as Mule deer often points out.

With that said I do love my 6.5X55 swede. I've just ordered 100 more Lapua brass and 300 147 Eld-M Hornady's to give a try.


Trystan

Can't imagine you typing that with a straight face.......WOW