The more I hear about the ongoing crisis around the world and the draconian policies of our own regime, my thoughts are turning to planning for anarchy in the US should something big happen (ie. nuclear detonation in one or more of our largest cities; total collapse of our monetary system; a breakdown of our food supply/distribution, etc) The more I think about it the more glum it appears for city dwellers such as myself. I rely on our current distribution system of food, gasoline and utilities distribution as well as reliable electronic communications systems, etc. If something were to happen and one needed to protect his family who has thought about what weapons would work? Also, what about a sniper rig in a political situation that may evolve into guerilla warfare?
Currently I am counting on gathering together my children and their families in the event of a widespread anarchy situation. That would mean equipping four men with weapons and ammo (9mm, .45ACP, .223 and .308). I have settled on two Marlin Camp rifles with matching handguns/magazines (S&W Mod 59 in 9mm and 1911 .45ACP) as well as a Mini-14 in .223 and an Icon Preditor Hunter in .223 (sniper) along with several more 1911s and a Browning Hi-Power. I am currently looking for a .308 sniper rig as well. Leaning toward an FN or Savage rifle.
There is a ton of stuff written about the topic of SHTF. One of the most interesting is by a guy who went through it during Argentina's financial meltdown. My own take is that weaponry is just one part of it.
I'm not convinced that rural folk will necessarily be better off, at least in the longer term. Depends on fuel vs. working livestock, and growing seasons, among other factors. Think Amish.
I'm just glad I'm not any younger, but I worry about my sons and grandchildren.
nothing wrong with you weapons choices if they work for you....a more daunting task would be the logistics of food, water, medical supplies, sanitation, etc for such a large group of people in the event of a meltdown. sounds like you need to plan for a platoon sized unit....and prepare accordingly.
The more I hear about the ongoing crisis around the world and the draconian policies of our own regime, my thoughts are turning to planning for anarchy in the US should something big happen (ie. nuclear detonation in one or more of our largest cities; total collapse of our monetary system; a breakdown of our food supply/distribution, etc) The more I think about it the more glum it appears for city dwellers such as myself. I rely on our current distribution system of food, gasoline and utilities distribution as well as reliable electronic communications systems, etc. If something were to happen and one needed to protect his family who has thought about what weapons would work? Also, what about a sniper rig in a political situation that may evolve into guerilla warfare?
Currently I am counting on gathering together my children and their families in the event of a widespread anarchy situation. That would mean equipping four men with weapons and ammo (9mm, .45ACP, .223 and .308). I have settled on two Marlin Camp rifles with matching handguns/magazines (S&W Mod 59 in 9mm and 1911 .45ACP) as well as a Mini-14 in .223 and an Icon Preditor Hunter in .223 (sniper) along with several more 1911s and a Browning Hi-Power. I am currently looking for a .308 sniper rig as well. Leaning toward an FN or Savage rifle.
There is a ton of stuff written about the topic of SHTF. One of the most interesting is by a guy who went through it during Argentina's financial meltdown. My own take is that weaponry is just one part of it.
I'm not convinced that rural folk will necessarily be better off, at least in the longer term. Depends on fuel vs. working livestock, and growing seasons, among other factors. Think Amish.
I'm just glad I'm not any younger, but I worry about my sons and grandchildren.
Paul
there is an interesting thing on the net someplace about this guy in bosnia during that flareup. He thought they would do okay living out in the country. Wrong. One or a couple of people against a platoon? They had weapons but not enough ammo, not enough manpower.
Don't worry about the tin foil hat comments. Even saw a one hour feature on the History Channel last night about how to survive after the SHTF. Look at how the unionistas are acting in Wisconsin, Ohio etc. to get a preview of coming attractions. Only it will be much worse when you take food and other necessities away from the "entitlement" crowd. It will look more like Libya/Egypt/Greece. Add in the never ending flow of illegals and the mideast situation and there is legitimate cause for concern. I prefer to be prepared rather than be like Nero and fiddle (or make tin foil hat comments) while Rome/America burns. Not like we haven't seen them setting fire to Detroit, LA etc. before.
nothing wrong with you weapons choices if they work for you....a more daunting task would be the logistics of food, water, medical supplies, sanitation, etc for such a large group of people in the event of a meltdown. sounds like you need to plan for a platoon sized unit....and prepare accordingly.
I'll tell ya' what,
......Re : people who aren't FIRST AND FOREMOST focused on the logistics you call out,....and instead obsess about firepower, and firepower alone ?
They'll more then likely be SUPPLYING those who did with arms and ammo, and the greater majority posthumously, I'd venture.
"Well , we got guns,....let's go get some." ......totally predictable.
As is their subsequent (and self expedited) demise.
Guns are only part of it. And the choice of actual weapon is not so important as insuring resupply of ammo and to me that means military calibers - .308, .223 and 9mm. If the SHTF, 7mm-08 and .270, even .30-06 and .357 Magnum ammo, will quickly be in short supply or - poetically likely - stockpiled in huge quantities in the hidden basement vaults of guys who starved to death or died of an infection from a minor cut.
Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics. Being able to defend yourself is certainly important, but as already mentioned, food, potable water and medicine would have higher priorities than the ability to repel boarders.
not a war in history was won with weapons alone. Logistics wins wars.
The only two caveats I would throw up is that you should standardize on MILITARY GRADE WEAPONS. Not converted sporting guns, not Citizen home defense weapons, not things that only look 'tactical', but are not sturdy enough for the long run.
A single fire fight can put more wear and tear on a weapon than a life time of plinking at the range.
Second, make sure your training is up to par. Make sure your spare parts, knowledge of how to repair your firearms, and the mind set of your family is up to the task.
Don't worry about the tin foil hat comments. Even saw a one hour feature on the History Channel last night about how to survive after the SHTF. Look at how the unionistas are acting in Wisconsin, Ohio etc. to get a preview of coming attractions. Only it will be much worse when you take food and other necessities away from the "entitlement" crowd. It will look more like Libya/Egypt/Greece. Add in the never ending flow of illegals and the mideast situation and there is legitimate cause for concern. I prefer to be prepared rather than be like Nero and fiddle (or make tin foil hat comments) while Rome/America burns. Not like we haven't seen them setting fire to Detroit, LA etc. before.
Exactly who was it setting fires in Detroit, LA, and/or looting in places like New Orleans? Ever seen anything like that happen in Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana?...
Funny thing a couple of years ago as a member of our local Department of Emergency Management Team we broached that very subject as we are a rural county out here on the Olympic Peninsula and did a table top exercise on what would happen here on the Peninsula if the big one did occur over on the I-5 Corridor and we had a sudden influx of people from Seattle, Tacoma and the other Metro areas on the East side of the sound.
Believe me the outlook was bleak as there was and is no way that our infrastructure could handle sudden influx of people as we simply don't have the resources in either the public or private sector and there would be no way in hell of replacing the commodities needed to feed and house those coming out of the metropolitan areas as the sources for replenishment would have been destroyed.
One of the problems is it's not just an Olympic Penisula problem. It would be a regional problem as this scenario would play out the same on the East side of the state. I'm not trying to be an alarmist but this same scenario would play out the same way where ever you live in this country.
Maybe those atomic bomb shelter folks back in the 50's had it right. You get the wife and kids in your personal underground bunker, lock the blast proof door, and don't come out for a decade or so.
Don't worry about the tin foil hat comments. Even saw a one hour feature on the History Channel last night about how to survive after the SHTF. Look at how the unionistas are acting in Wisconsin, Ohio etc. to get a preview of coming attractions. Only it will be much worse when you take food and other necessities away from the "entitlement" crowd. It will look more like Libya/Egypt/Greece. Add in the never ending flow of illegals and the mideast situation and there is legitimate cause for concern. I prefer to be prepared rather than be like Nero and fiddle (or make tin foil hat comments) while Rome/America burns. Not like we haven't seen them setting fire to Detroit, LA etc. before.
Exactly who was it setting fires in Detroit, LA, and/or looting in places like New Orleans? Ever seen anything like that happen in Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana?...
Guess I am missing the intent of your reply as I didn't mention any of those four states. In fact I live in Alaska and it hasn't happened here either. Because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't. Can I see possible riots in say Anchorage? Yes, anywhere you have people with the entitlement mindset and who can't take care of themselves. Granted there are far fewer of those folks in the states you mentioned and up here!
Maybe those atomic bomb shelter folks back in the 50's had it right. You get the wife and kids in your personal underground bunker, lock the blast proof door, and don't come out for a decade or so.
if we did that, there would be no survivors....we'd kill each other in about a month.
I'm hoarding .22lr ammo, T.P., and tobacco. Figure it'll buy anything I need.
Good move - I try to keep at least two of the 24 pack double rolls of Northern up on the top shelf at all times. That's in addition to the 24 pack in the bathroom.
Keep extra salt and pepper, couple bottles of clorox for purifying water, big CostCo sized bottle of ibuprofen, antiseptic ointment, canned goods, matches, candles, fuel for the Coleman stove plus Stabil to keep it good for a while and a few other things.
Had 27,000 rounds of .22 LR and down to maybe 14,000 now. Damn, time to resupply!
Maybe those atomic bomb shelter folks back in the 50's had it right. You get the wife and kids in your personal underground bunker, lock the blast proof door, and don't come out for a decade or so.
if we did that, there would be no survivors....we'd kill each other in about a month.
Well there is that little problem to take into consideration. Guess it wasn't a problem back in the 50's when every wife and kid loved. honored and obeyed the husband/father without question
If I were to plan for something like that I'd stockpile one pistol and one rifle caliber only. Can't see an advantage to running 9s and 45s in two different magazines in pistols that use two different parts kits. Same / Same for long guns. I wouldn't even worry that much about a pistol.
The exception would be to add a 10/22 and a bazillion rounds for anything that wasn't angry.
I never warmed up to scatterguns, mostly because I can't hit stuff in the air no matter how hard I try.
To face the end of the world I'd say a pump is low capacity, slow to reload and hard to carry ammo for. They do specialized things very well, but other options will cover a lot more ground.
Peanut butter and crackers would keep my family going a long time. Tuna fish, pickles, anything that doesn't require refrigeration would be good to stock up on. Clean drinking water might be hard to find depending on where you live. Toilet paper might be the new currency in the event of a Wall Street Crash.
I forgot to add a generator. Life without electricity sucks hard. Forget the sniper rifle. Get a shotgun and lots of buckshot. People get brave at night when you can't use your sights. Review what happened after Katrina. It might be better to leave the area and make a strategic withdrawal. Some big dogs might be nice while walking the perimeter.
The more I hear about the ongoing crisis around the world and the draconian policies of our own regime, my thoughts are turning to planning for anarchy in the US should something big happen (ie. nuclear detonation in one or more of our largest cities; total collapse of our monetary system; a breakdown of our food supply/distribution, etc) The more I think about it the more glum it appears for city dwellers such as myself. I rely on our current distribution system of food, gasoline and utilities distribution as well as reliable electronic communications systems, etc. If something were to happen and one needed to protect his family who has thought about what weapons would work? Also, what about a sniper rig in a political situation that may evolve into guerilla warfare?
Currently I am counting on gathering together my children and their families in the event of a widespread anarchy situation. That would mean equipping four men with weapons and ammo (9mm, .45ACP, .223 and .308). I have settled on two Marlin Camp rifles with matching handguns/magazines (S&W Mod 59 in 9mm and 1911 .45ACP) as well as a Mini-14 in .223 and an Icon Preditor Hunter in .223 (sniper) along with several more 1911s and a Browning Hi-Power. I am currently looking for a .308 sniper rig as well. Leaning toward an FN or Savage rifle.
Any thoughts on this?
Water rises to the top of the list pretty quick. Being in town could suck pretty bad.
Had a little glimpse of that this past summer when the flooding knocked out our city water system for a few days. I live within five minutes of a shopping center, and was there right after the city made the announcement, and all the bottled water was gone. The city arranged to have supplies trucked in, so in about a day things were pretty good as far as potable water.
What was disconcerting is that for the next couple of days the supermarket parking lots were jammed, and I don't think it was just for water. Folks were hoarding. Gave me an eerie feeling, and made me think.
The system was back up and running in a few days. Not to start a govt./private pizzing match, but ours is a city water system, and you couldn't have asked for a better job to have been done, especially by the engineers and the guys down in the trenches. I doubt many private companies could have done as well.
And nobody who knows me would call me a fan of our local government, especially the people at the top who run it, but I have to give credit where it's due.
goes to show how any bit of civility deteriorates the first hint of a scare. make it a nationwide scare and wow.
take fuel for example, what if to protest the expense of fuel, truckers/firms went on strike? or worse yet we run out of fuel. talk about "eat thy neighbor" mentality.
hate to think about it, and like to think it won't, but I've seen enough evidence to know it WILL happen at the current rate of consumption vs production. its just a matter of time
Don't worry about the tin foil hat comments. Even saw a one hour feature on the History Channel last night about how to survive after the SHTF. Look at how the unionistas are acting in Wisconsin, Ohio etc. to get a preview of coming attractions. Only it will be much worse when you take food and other necessities away from the "entitlement" crowd. It will look more like Libya/Egypt/Greece. Add in the never ending flow of illegals and the mideast situation and there is legitimate cause for concern. I prefer to be prepared rather than be like Nero and fiddle (or make tin foil hat comments) while Rome/America burns. Not like we haven't seen them setting fire to Detroit, LA etc. before.
Exactly who was it setting fires in Detroit, LA, and/or looting in places like New Orleans? Ever seen anything like that happen in Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana?...
Guess I am missing the intent of your reply as I didn't mention any of those four states. In fact I live in Alaska and it hasn't happened here either. Because something hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't. Can I see possible riots in say Anchorage? Yes, anywhere you have people with the entitlement mindset and who can't take care of themselves. Granted there are far fewer of those folks in the states you mentioned and up here!
The riots you cited can be traced to one specific factor, can they not? Last summer when the hills around San Diego burned and people were packed into the stadium for days on end, how'd they behave compared those during Katrina? What do you think the difference was?
For the most part, civilized people will act in a civilized manner, even under stress.
JIM IN IDAHO - " Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics. Being able to defend yourself is certainly important, but as already mentioned, food, potable water and medicine would have higher priorities than the ability to repel boarders.
As would sanitation supplies and how to use them when regular services are down or non-existent.
Throughout the world's written history, more people have been killed by, or died as a result of filth (poor sanitation) than all the wars combined.
Maybe those atomic bomb shelter folks back in the 50's had it right. You get the wife and kids in your personal underground bunker, lock the blast proof door, and don't come out for a decade or so.
you ain't ever been snowed in for a couple days, have you?
JIM IN IDAHO - " Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics. Being able to defend yourself is certainly important, but as already mentioned, food, potable water and medicine would have higher priorities than the ability to repel boarders.
As would sanitation supplies and how to use them when regular services are down or non-existent.
Throughout the world's written history, more people have been killed by, or died as a result of filth (poor sanitation) than all the wars combined.
L.W.
Yah, didn't use Vood Ash,....on dere' poop, for starters.
You need a group of people to ensure that there is someone on guard at all times and enough to fight off an attack.
You should have a place that is located away from populations centers as those are the areas that will suffer the worse depredations.
Have the resources required to farm and raise livestock.
Stockpile supplies of gas and diesel because it won't be available.
You need a large supply of ammo and reloading supplies.
Standardise firearms and calibers.
Prepare your retreat to for a firefight with bad guys. Solid bullet proof walls, doors and windows. Fire proofing. A source of water. Barriers to vehicles and people that don't provide cover. Hidden observation point and something to detect and warn of intruders. A dog or two is also useful. An alarm to rouse people in an emergency. A bicycle powered generator, solar panels and 12 volt wiring and 12 volt low power lights. A large supply of wood.
Training so you will have someone skilled in: Medicine, Machining, Auto maintenance, carpentry/construction/plumbing, Reloading. Group training so you can fight together efficiently.
not a war in history was won with weapons alone. Logistics wins wars.
The only two caveats I would throw up is that you should standardize on MILITARY GRADE WEAPONS. Not converted sporting guns, not Citizen home defense weapons, not things that only look 'tactical', but are not sturdy enough for the long run.
A single fire fight can put more wear and tear on a weapon than a life time of plinking at the range.
Second, make sure your training is up to par. Make sure your spare parts, knowledge of how to repair your firearms, and the mind set of your family is up to the task.
Whatever guns you have for a SHTF scenerio they are going to be for only a couple things: 1. Protecting what you got from other people intent on taking what you got. Probably small groups or individuals 2. Used for taking game to provide food on the table.
This is just my opinion, but the illusion of fighting off hundreds of people and needing thousands upon thousands of rounds is imo just ridiculous. The reality is, if you face even a small group, say squad size, of an organized, trained and equipped force- you are toast. What do you have to fend off supresive fire from LMG's, grenade attacks, and heaven forbid artilary or airstrikes. It is just a pipe dream. What you need is a safe place to hide out. Just trying to survive in a non functional society will be hard enough, let alone with people out there trying to kill you.
It is just a pipe dream. What you need is a safe place to hide out. Just trying to survive in a non functional society will be hard enough, let alone with people out there trying to kill you.
Hemi
I am not so sure that there IS a 'safe place to hide out'. There are places that are less accessible, harder to get to, but all of America has been explored and mapped for many years.
A reason to have a goodly supply of ammunition, is that there is just no way of knowing how long a time of crisis and societal breakdown would last. If you ever did have to defend yourself, even from a small group of attackers, trust me, you can burn through more ammunition than you think you will. I would not be comfortable with less than 3K rounds for every combat worthy long gun, and at least a thousand for every combat hand gun. Knowing how to re load, and having a supply of components is a good idea as well.
Well, I guess I should have used the term "safer" place to hide out. Maybe your home is safer than say the next town over. Maybe it is your cabin in the woods, or maybe it is on your yacht in the middle of the carribean. IDK. I'll agree with you on the need for more ammo than what you would expect. But I'll leave you with this question. How long you think the average gunfight is going to last between two survivalist? Weather it be a group or mano e mano fight? I'll guess this. If you have "invaders" trying to take your stuff and the bullets start flying, most will probably retreat. Maybe if they too have guns, they will let off some covering fire for their retreat. Most people are not ready to risk their lives and will go off to find "easier" pickings. Now, the scenerio where they come in and don't flee after the inital shots- well their either hell bent on killing you or crazy and I don't really want to meet either of those people. In that cse, you are right. Mass supressive fire and lots of ammo.
Someone on one of these threads in the past said he keeps his cabin cruiser stocked and ready to be out to sea until the smoke clears. He was less worried about guns and ammo than he was fish hooks and propane.
no matter the location, no matter your preps, things probably will be pretty bad for us all. I really feel for those that need maintenance meds and require electricity for medical equipment. Those folks are going to have a life expectancy measured much closer than the healthy. The obese, as well, won't last long.
Food, water and gas will run out real quick in the cities and there will be gangs of thugs venturing out into first suburbia and then rural areas looking for easy pickings. You will probably have the loner looking to score to deal with but you will also at some point have gangs making their way out. You think they will rest content to starve to death in the city?
Why would anyone in their right mind hoard 10,000 rounds of .22lr and ignore the ease of 2000 rounds of .223? Good luck fending off that SUV filled with crackmonkeys with a .22lr.
The best idea I can come up with is bugging out in a large sailboat. You can be very close to land and still be out of the reach of most of the wandering crazies. You have a ton of mobility, you have little to no need for gas, you'll be a hell of lot safer than on land. Very few people will choose this option. Most will drive into the "country" until they run out of gas, then wander around from there. Last place I'd want to be is with the masses on the highway. With a sailboat, you can hide out in remote places, maybe find a country where the SHNHTF. From a defensive position, you have a pretty good view of boats coming your way, so you can prepare accordingly.
Pretty soon, with lot of folks out foraging, small and larger game will be hunted pretty much to extinction. However, I doubt that I will ever run out fish to catch and if I do, I can always move the boat somewhere else. I'll never run out of drinking water and disposing of waste isn't a problem. Its easy to fit out a sailboat with a few solar panels to charge batteries for lighting at night.
I'm not sure I could live on fish alone, or in a sailboat forever, but I think this plan has fewer holes in it than most I've heard.
Food, water and gas will run out real quick in the cities and there will be gangs of thugs venturing out into first suburbia and then rural areas looking for easy pickings. You will probably have the loner looking to score to deal with but you will also at some point have gangs making their way out. You think they will rest content to starve to death in the city?
Why would anyone in their right mind hoard 10,000 rounds of .22lr and ignore the ease of 2000 rounds of .223? Good luck fending off that SUV filled with crackmonkeys with a .22lr.
location, location, location...
if you're fighting, you won't last long.
If you're hunting, you will need to last long.
It would be a miracle if any of us get out of this world alive.
The best idea I can come up with is bugging out in a large sailboat. You can be very close to land and still be out of the reach of most of the wandering crazies. You have a ton of mobility, you have little to no need for gas, you'll be a hell of lot safer than on land. Very few people will choose this option. Most will drive into the "country" until they run out of gas, then wander around from there. Last place I'd want to be is with the masses on the highway. With a sailboat, you can hide out in remote places, maybe find a country where the SHNHTF. From a defensive position, you have a pretty good view of boats coming your way, so you can prepare accordingly.
Pretty soon, with lot of folks out foraging, small and larger game will be hunted pretty much to extinction. However, I doubt that I will ever run out fish to catch and if I do, I can always move the boat somewhere else. I'll never run out of drinking water and disposing of waste isn't a problem. Its easy to fit out a sailboat with a few solar panels to charge batteries for lighting at night.
I'm not sure I could live on fish alone, or in a sailboat forever, but I think this plan has fewer holes in it than most I've heard.
Make sure you watch out for those badazz Waterworld dudes! They hide on their jet skis under the water.
i'm a landlubber, can only get to the cabin by boat or snowmachine, easy to drop enough trees behind you so you'd have some warning of others trying to get where we & the neighbors are.
done strategically the jams would be done in places where it would be easy to mow some trespassers down and take advantage of higher ground
if they have airpower we're toast, but if they have air at their disposal we'd be way down the list for a target it seems
just idle thoughts
doubt it will ever be needed, but a bit of comfort to know it's at our disposal and we're intimately familiar with the place as it's where we recreate
hope i can get my lpe pix by satellite phone & then call my bookie, that's the big worry
Well, Mini 14s are as expensive as a lot of other things that I'd take over them -- but not necessarily bad. Dare I say, even as a vehement opponent of an AR, I'd take one over it simply for compatibility. Then there's always the SU16, which is nice because it takes AR mags, and is featherlight.
My instructor at Pine Tech said he's seen people take the lowest-end Savage rifles out of the factory box and shoot 1 MOA with them. Go for it.
Whatever you do, for SHTF, you're going to want a lot of ammo -- thousands of rifle rounds. Pistol, not as important, but have enough to fill all your mags twice is a rule I like. Speaking of mags, get lots of those, too!
Well, Mini 14s are as expensive as a lot of other things that I'd take over them -- but not necessarily bad. Dare I say, even as a vehement opponent of an AR, I'd take one over it simply for compatibility. Then there's always the SU16, which is nice because it takes AR mags, and is featherlight.
My instructor at Pine Tech said he's seen people take the lowest-end Savage rifles out of the factory box and shoot 1 MOA with them. Go for it.
Whatever you do, for SHTF, you're going to want a lot of ammo -- thousands of rifle rounds. Pistol, not as important, but have enough to fill all your mags twice is a rule I like. Speaking of mags, get lots of those, too!
Yo,.....
for "SHTF" I want Water, SEED, and SOIL.....
I'll let the hungry aggressors bring me alla' tha crap you're talking about.
....Probably have to start stacking the stuff up in a pit, before it's all played out.
Ask the "Desert Rat Clan",.....I'm a straight up pacifist, Jack.
Damn, good call. Didn't even think of the zombie apocolypse!
In that case, DBL barrel shotgun in 12ga.
Screw running, I'm killing me some zom-bags!
Hemi
Oh yeah- LOTS of ammo!
Were you at work today? I drove by and thought about stopping, but due to the wind trying to wear the snow out I did my shopping and bugged out for home. I25 sucks btw.
We should be prepping in both areas, but the post wasn't about the food aspect. Heirloom seeds, a well with alternate power or a handpump (or other water access), and a good food store and storage ability are all just as important as guns. There are lots of kinda of SHTF, after all!
The best idea I can come up with is bugging out in a large sailboat. You can be very close to land and still be out of the reach of most of the wandering crazies. You have a ton of mobility, you have little to no need for gas, you'll be a hell of lot safer than on land. Very few people will choose this option. Most will drive into the "country" until they run out of gas, then wander around from there. Last place I'd want to be is with the masses on the highway. With a sailboat, you can hide out in remote places, maybe find a country where the SHNHTF. From a defensive position, you have a pretty good view of boats coming your way, so you can prepare accordingly.
Pretty soon, with lot of folks out foraging, small and larger game will be hunted pretty much to extinction. However, I doubt that I will ever run out fish to catch and if I do, I can always move the boat somewhere else. I'll never run out of drinking water and disposing of waste isn't a problem. Its easy to fit out a sailboat with a few solar panels to charge batteries for lighting at night.
I'm not sure I could live on fish alone, or in a sailboat forever, but I think this plan has fewer holes in it than most I've heard.
As long as the Coast Guard and Navy re still on the side of the free and brave, you'll be OK on the high seas. I'm somewhat concerned with a federal government run muck and a Hitler like regime coming to power.
The best idea I can come up with is bugging out in a large sailboat. You can be very close to land and still be out of the reach of most of the wandering crazies. You have a ton of mobility, you have little to no need for gas, you'll be a hell of lot safer than on land. Very few people will choose this option. Most will drive into the "country" until they run out of gas, then wander around from there. Last place I'd want to be is with the masses on the highway. With a sailboat, you can hide out in remote places, maybe find a country where the SHNHTF. From a defensive position, you have a pretty good view of boats coming your way, so you can prepare accordingly.
Pretty soon, with lot of folks out foraging, small and larger game will be hunted pretty much to extinction. However, I doubt that I will ever run out fish to catch and if I do, I can always move the boat somewhere else. I'll never run out of drinking water and disposing of waste isn't a problem. Its easy to fit out a sailboat with a few solar panels to charge batteries for lighting at night.
I'm not sure I could live on fish alone, or in a sailboat forever, but I think this plan has fewer holes in it than most I've heard.
As long as the Coast Guard and Navy re still on the side of the free and brave, you'll be OK on the high seas. I'm somewhat concerned with a federal government run muck and a Hitler like regime coming to power.
Hoping THAT isn't your complete synopsis / answer to FOUR pages of legitimate answers.
Knock off the RP campaigning,...and SPEAK a bit,...all ears here.
We should be prepping in both areas, but the post wasn't about the food aspect. Heirloom seeds, a well with alternate power or a handpump (or other water access), and a good food store and storage ability are all just as important as guns. There are lots of kinda of SHTF, after all!
Exactly. I've done plenty of reading on the subject but was just trying to focus on the fire power part of the equation. I have learned a few things though reading all the replies. I better get over to my "Ron Paul Campaign Thread" though . . . sounds like someone is busting a gut. laffin'
We should be prepping in both areas, but the post wasn't about the food aspect. Heirloom seeds, a well with alternate power or a handpump (or other water access), and a good food store and storage ability are all just as important as guns. There are lots of kinda of SHTF, after all!
Exactly. I've done plenty of reading on the subject but was just trying to focus on the fire power part of the equation. I have learned a few things though reading all the replies. I better get over to my "Ron Paul Campaign Thread" though . . . sounds like someone is busting a gut. laffin'
j/k about "laffin"
Sounds like you're really getting to [bleep] up, to me,....
while we're readin/posting on, this thread. who, is prepared for trading for goods or services with some type of monitary funds ?
stock piling silver or gold bars ? old us silver money with a face value, but worth something since it's made of silver ? there are some who plan on terrible things to happen, and those that hope and pray nothing ever happens, but if it does are totaly unprepared. me... i'm prepared to some degree, but alas, 1 man with family members isn't enough for a hoard, or armed forces. i know if push comes to shove, i'll take as many with meas i can, before i die !
while we're readin/posting on, this thread. who, is prepared for trading for goods or services with some type of monitary funds ?
stock piling silver or gold bars ? old us silver money with a face value, but worth something since it's made of silver ? there are some who plan on terrible things to happen, and those that hope and pray nothing ever happens, but if it does are totaly unprepared. me... i'm prepared to some degree, but alas, 1 man with family members isn't enough for a hoard, or armed forces. i know if push comes to shove, i'll take as many with meas i can, before i die !
now blue helmets ....
This is where I disagree with all the Gold and Silver advisors like Hannity, Gordon, Lavin, and Beck. If the paper money thing fails, and someone offers you "alleged" gold or siver coins, could you be 100% sure it is actually gold or silver . . . much less of what purity? Like Dave Ramsey says, forget about the gold in a crisis.
As most here have said, the ability to sustain life is going to be more important than the type and number of guns you have.
Probably the biggest concern is drinking water. I would love to have a place out in the country, but over time have learned life was easier by making the wife happy. We have 3.5 acres outside of a small town. We are on city water. There is a river within a half mile of the house but it would be quite dangerous getting water if the S truly HTF. Not much I can do unless I want to dig a pond or put in a pool.
A concern for me is medication. Without it I would be dead in short order. How much is enough? Nothing is made on US soil anymore and a breakdown in the supply chain would be disasterous.
I think more realistically, things may get to how they were in the great depression, but far more people without the skills to survive. Basic needs may be met but at a high price or in short quantities. There will always be people looking to take what is yours. How far are you going to make your property safe. Nothing short of a well thought out compound is going to keep the masses out for long.
I have been planting fruit trees, increasing garden area and getting my own chickens to be more self suffficient if the need arises.
There won't be anything romantic about the SHTF and many will not last long. Those that do may not enjoy it.
Damn, good call. Didn't even think of the zombie apocolypse!
In that case, DBL barrel shotgun in 12ga.
Screw running, I'm killing me some zom-bags!
Hemi
Oh yeah- LOTS of ammo!
Were you at work today? I drove by and thought about stopping, but due to the wind trying to wear the snow out I did my shopping and bugged out for home. I25 sucks btw.
Yeah, I'm here.....still
With the wind the way it is though I am not really complaining. Nothing to do outside.
Friend, Do I know you? I checked your profile and found nothing there other than SE Arizona as your admitted place of abode. I have spent some time in Arizona, and have several friends there. Have we met? I have to admit I find your post count amusing. Since the founder and #2 poster of this site has only 8K + posts, my imagination runs wild when I try to picture what you look like as you peck away, hour after hour, on your computer. Do you have a life other than the camp fire? Do you have a job? Do you own a business and provide jobs for others, or do you lie sideways in the public trough? Can you enumerate one or two services you have provided to your country or fellow American? I picture you as obese, and unkempt, but I know that is probably unfair. Have you any formal education? Have you worn a uniform? Are you a taker or a giver? Do you know Christ? Are you married? How many times? Children? Grandchildren? Do you normally attempt to intimidate those with whom you take issue with regard to their politics, religion, or other personal views? Just trying to figure out who you are my friend. I'm sure we have not met, because we would be friends.
Damn, good call. Didn't even think of the zombie apocolypse!
In that case, DBL barrel shotgun in 12ga.
Screw running, I'm killing me some zom-bags!
Hemi
Oh yeah- LOTS of ammo!
Were you at work today? I drove by and thought about stopping, but due to the wind trying to wear the snow out I did my shopping and bugged out for home. I25 sucks btw.
Yeah, I'm here.....still
With the wind the way it is though I am not really complaining. Nothing to do outside.
Stop by next time.
Hemi
I would have but with the wind I knew better than to dawdle. The roads were getting very crummy.
Friend, Do I know you? I checked your profile and found nothing there other than SE Arizona as your admitted place of abode. I have spent some time in Arizona, and have several friends there. Have we met? I have to admit I find your post count amusing. Since the founder and #2 poster of this site has only 8K + posts, my imagination runs wild when I try to picture what you look like as you peck away, hour after hour, on your computer. Do you have a life other than the camp fire? Do you have a job? Do you own a business and provide jobs for others, or do you lie sideways in the public trough? Can you enumerate one or two services you have provided to your country or fellow American? I picture you as obese, and unkempt, but I know that is probably unfair. Have you any formal education? Have you worn a uniform? Are you a taker or a giver? Do you know Christ? Are you married? How many times? Children? Grandchildren? Do you normally attempt to intimidate those with whom you take issue with regard to their politics, religion, or other personal views? Just trying to figure out who you are my friend. I'm sure we have not met, because we would be friends.
I'd suggest that you ASK the ASSEMBLY,...right here, you mouthy azzwhole. It's NOT I who is the "Stranger" here.
Get ALL of those stupid questions answered, ...Right pronto
Do me ONE favor,...leave the Lord outta' this,...stand on yer' own two stumps,...and act like a man.
I've been reading this thread and several others like it on similar forums. I like to keep some emergency stuff on hand, like enough food to last me and the wife a month or more without resupply. Extra propane and fuel as well, though I don't keep a whole lot of gas on hand. One thing that I've noticed is that many people assume there will be big groupd of gangs and general baddies running around trying to kill you/steal your stuff. I'm sure that's a possibility in some area's, but one of the first things to disappear would be gas and diesel,IMO. It's hard to travel much without fuel. I figure if you live an hour or more outside a major city, most people probably won't make it to where you are. Same goes for hunting. Probably the majority of people don't have their own hunting grounds right out there back door, so after a few trips out hunting they'll be effectivly stranded. I guess much depends on where you live, but for my loation I really don't worry about roving gangs of thieves and murderers. The closest city is 60 miles away, I live about 10 miles away from a town of 5-6000. My biggest concern is water. There is a well on the property and I'd like to figure out a way to get water in the case of a power outage. I always have enough to drink for several weeks,as I buy bottled on account of rusty well water. My little generator won't run the pump in the well. I know the location of a couple of wells with old hand pumps on them, but they are both a couple miles away. How likely do you think it is that we'll ever have to worry about extended or permanent los of electricity right across the country? I just don't see it happening. Locally, due to weather or earthquake I could see, but not right across the country. I did buy a bunch of seeds today, since the gun show was a bust, so I feel a little better anyway!
xxclaro . . . I'm assuming you have plenty of streams in your part of Canada. There are hand held "straw filters" from which you can drink straight from any open water body and the replaceable filter strains out the impurities. Attach a hand pump to it and you can draw enough water for cooking, washing, etc. Just some additional thoughts.
well, depending... a few api's outta my barrett may have an effect !
also, about the gas/diesel shortage. trucks and buses parked, will have LOTS of diesel in their tanks, and a small dc powered pump dropped into underground gas station tanks will yield more than enough gas for the smart ones !
xxclaro . . . I'm assuming you have plenty of streams in your part of Canada. There are hand held "straw filters" from which you can drink straight from any open water body and the replaceable filter strains out the impurities. Attach a hand pump to it and you can draw enough water for cooking, washing, etc. Just some additional thoughts.
"There are hand held "straw filters" from which you can drink straight from any open water body and the replaceable filter strains out the impurities."
EXACTLY,.....
How MANY "Straws / Pumps" do you currently own ? How many CONTINENTS have you used them on ? What's their micron / Gallon rating to NFG ?
Sorta' thing I'd be askin',...before becoming a "Sniper", and asking stupid "Squad Leader" questions,... Ace.
well, depending... a few api's outta my barrett may have an effect !
also, about the gas/diesel shortage. trucks and buses parked, will have LOTS of diesel in their tanks, and a small dc powered pump dropped into underground gas station tanks will yield more than enough gas for the smart ones !
Not for long....btw..thanks for giving everone the idea.
as to the original question as far as guns needed for a long term survival situation it would be a sturdy 22lr that you could suppress in the field and a large quantity of ammo needed to gather food and a defensive rifle such as an AR, AK, AUG, Mini 14, M1A, HK91 or 93, SKS, handguns and shotguns if you can manage and transport them with a good quantity of ammo. As to the other things posted such as a sailboat (surrounded by water you can't drink) Staying put in a compound (no area under siege has survived for very long) I have no opinion of Russ
My biggest concern is water. There is a well on the property and I'd like to figure out a way to get water in the case of a power outage. I always have enough to drink for several weeks,as I buy bottled on account of rusty well water. My little generator won't run the pump in the well. I know the location of a couple of wells with old hand pumps on them, but they are both a couple miles away.
I seem to recall crossfire posting a link to a nice handpump for water wells before.
As far as well water when the power goes out,get a submersible 12-24 volt pump. The panels need to be sized a little larger than the depth of the water you will be pumping.They have filters that can take the rust and other crap out of the water. The deepest I have pumped water this way was 180 feet,about 2.5 gallons a minute.
As far as well water when the power goes out,get a submersible 12-24 volt pump. The panels need to be sized a little larger than the depth of the water you will be pumping.They have filters that can take the rust and other crap out of the water. The deepest I have pumped water this way was 180 feet,about 2.5 gallons a minute.
Can you elaborate on this, not sure I`m getting it. The well we use(landlord and myself) is quite small diametre,althoug I;m not sure of the exact measurement. To the best of my recollection I`d guess 4-5 inches maybe. Would you setup work for this�
Said it before---that is a quality picture and in this case even more serendipitous cos mans best friend guarding mans most precious commodity when SHTF.
Said it before---that is a quality picture and in this case even more serendipitous cos mans best friend is guarding mans most precious commodity when SHTF.
I'm hoarding .22lr ammo, T.P., and tobacco. Figure it'll buy anything I need.
actually you are right on target. the guy in bosnia said if you had tobacco or toilet paper, you could trade for just about anything. A friend of mine says if the city gets disrupted he is going to drive a heavy truck through the front door of a walgreens, every thing you need is there. Defendible, medicine, food, water, booze etc.
Maybe those atomic bomb shelter folks back in the 50's had it right. You get the wife and kids in your personal underground bunker, lock the blast proof door, and don't come out for a decade or so.
Wait a minute, back the truck up! After rethinking that, maybe I'd prefer it happen before I die, because I certainly don't want to be zombiefied and have some hillbilly mofo plinking at my dead azz while I'm trying to eats me some flesh!...
Witness the "Clean Up" and rescue efforts taking place in Christchurch, as we peck.
"For the most part, civilized people will act in a civilized manner, even under stress"
+ 1000 the problem has always been greg, most of the world is NOT civilized. In years past while in phoenix i have had the power go out for over five days, so there is a generator. couple of years ago the city filtration system was not doing it's job, so there is a katyln water filter system, and the list goes on. most food stuffs are trucked into phoenix, and if that goes out we are in trouble quick. Same if electricity goes out, no gas pumping, cold boxes etc.
Maybe those atomic bomb shelter folks back in the 50's had it right. You get the wife and kids in your personal underground bunker, lock the blast proof door, and don't come out for a decade or so.
you got to poop some time
They must have had an app for that, cause they weren't coming out.
It is just a pipe dream. What you need is a safe place to hide out. Just trying to survive in a non functional society will be hard enough, let alone with people out there trying to kill you.
Hemi
I am not so sure that there IS a 'safe place to hide out'. There are places that are less accessible, harder to get to, but all of America has been explored and mapped for many years.
A reason to have a goodly supply of ammunition, is that there is just no way of knowing how long a time of crisis and societal breakdown would last. If you ever did have to defend yourself, even from a small group of attackers, trust me, you can burn through more ammunition than you think you will. I would not be comfortable with less than 3K rounds for every combat worthy long gun, and at least a thousand for every combat hand gun. Knowing how to re load, and having a supply of components is a good idea as well.
i will guarantee you there are places in arizona that haven't seen humanity since geronimo or mangus colorado
For sanitation I'm pullin the lid to the septic tank and settin a lawn chair over it.
No sense in storing a lot of fuel. If you're buggin in and plan on running a generator you may as well put a sign in your front yard "I have food and water". If you're buggin out, you'll get shot and your bug out vehicle will be gone.
GW - when civility meets hunger/thirst and the convoys of "help" are not coming, I have feeling civility will be the first thing out the window.
Remember, the question isn't whether or not you're paranoid, it's whether or not you're paranoid enough!!
Again, the areas of this Country (and others) that have seen rioting, looting, etc. following a disaster in recent times all had one common factor, and I just don't see it happening here.
Folks, If what you all are thinking about of when the SHTF happens you will be a combatant or a casualty. The combatants will have to adopt small unit plans to evade and elude and gather what they need to survive along the way such as shelter, food and water. There is no way to transport anything more than basic tools and arms on your back and the planning of what you can carry could make all the differance. Think water gathering, carrying and purification, meat and food gathering, shelter, close range self defense. Think mobile and proactive. Anyone that plans to dig in in most of our country or escape totally by a vehicle will most likely not fair well, do not think stand and fight, think cut and run. Build strong relationships with people that you can trust and have the same points of view that you can meet up with and trust. And last but not least pray that we are never forced into such a situation. Russ
Well, an interesting topic. We're probably fairly well set up since we live 15 miles outside a town of 2500. We have 7000 gallons of underground water supply that will gravity feed to our place at 35psi. Lot's of land, 25 kw diesel generator, lots of diesel (mostly to fuel the tractor, bulldozer and pickup). We are also 1.5 miles off the county road and behind two locked gates. Oh, and we do have a few guns and such. However, none of it was really due to the doomsday scenarios discussed here. Being far out in the country, at the end of the power line, you just plan on being self sufficient. We've been out of power for 6 days, had our driveway blocked by a slide, floods, locust - you get the picture. It's just part of country living, and we make it through. In a true SHTF scenario I'll probably stock up on chocolate chips and bacon. Two things that I love to eat, but don't - but hey, if the end is near, might as well enjoy yourself.
Folks, If what you all are thinking about of when the SHTF happens you will be a combatant or a casualty. The combatants will have to adopt small unit plans to evade and elude and gather what they need to survive along the way such as shelter, food and water. There is no way to transport anything more than basic tools and arms on your back and the planning of what you can carry could make all the differance. Think water gathering, carrying and purification, meat and food gathering, shelter, close range self defense. Think mobile and proactive. Anyone that plans to dig in in most of our country or escape totally by a vehicle will most likely not fair well, do not think stand and fight, think cut and run. Build strong relationships with people that you can trust and have the same points of view that you can meet up with and trust. And last but not least pray that we are never forced into such a situation. Russ
First off I don`t believe we`ll ever see a time when this sort of action is necessary. If we do though, I would tend to disagree with your theory. I jsut don`t see how running is a better idea than staying put. First of all,where are you going to run too. If things are this bad, things aren`t likely to be better anywhere else. Running just leaves you exposed and vulnerable. You`d constantly be entering new and unfamiliar terrain and surroundings,and the people who are already there likely won`t welcome you and your little gang. Like you said, it won`t be possible to carry all the stuff you would like to take. If you stay put, at least you have all the things you managed to aquire for this sort of situation. If you cooperate with the people in your neighbourhood or surrounding area, you should be able to make things fairly secure. Of course nothing is foolproof, but I feel this would be the best thing to do. It is also, I believe,the strength of the american(and canadian) people. When things get tough, people will band together for the common good. If you are reliable and useful,people will be glad to have you around and want you to stay. I believe that small,mostly self sufficient communities would start up. Eventually these small communities would start bartering and trading with other small communities for goods and services. Once again, I don`t belive that it`s going to come to this, but if it ever does, this is my plan. Stay put, help out those nearest to me and try to get everyone able to cooperate in providing security and assistance. Hopefully someone in the neighbourhood had medical training,a couple mechanics and general handymen,gardeners and farmers and of course the hunters! Likely someone has an accessible well and if your in the country probably livestock and chickens too. Yep, I`m staying put.
. . . I think we've got you pretty much figured,.... . . .
You keep talking like you have an army behind you. You, and you only, are the one who has been quite obnoxious throughout this thread. Nobody else has been rude or tried to act like a know it all. You are the first person on the fire, in over two years I have posted here, who has made a fool of themselves when discussing a thread I have started. You sound like you have an "assembly" of your friends who agree with your pronouncements, but all I hear is crickets chirping. Like I say, I don't know you and you don't know me, but I bet we could be friends if we met face to face. Why the animosity? Its just a conversation about possible scenarios. More entertainment than seriousness. Maybe "imagination" is a better word. Relax and enjoy life. It is too short.
. . . If you cooperate with the people in your neighbourhood or surrounding area, you should be able to make things fairly secure. . . .
A question I have asked myself is whether I should let my neighbors in on the preparations I am making. There won't be enough food and water for the entire neighborhood at my house (remember I am talking about city dwellers). If you share the information and the SHTF, everyone will know where is the food and water (my house) which I only planned for use by my immediate family. Even if your closest neighbors are in, will they do their part to prepare? Just some unanswered questions.
Study what happened during Katrina in New Orleans. This happened in the United States in recent history. It will be a decision based on when to move that people will have to make for themselves. You and I in a rural area will make different choices than people living in a city. As I said build strong relationships with people you trust. A small community of people would be a great place to start but depending on the situation it can degrade to hell in a hurry. The question of the original post was arms for when TSHTF and does anyone feel what that meaning was. The answer I gave was a suggestion on how to survive a worst case senario. Fact of the matter if you can't move around your [bleep] in that senario. My pappy always told me to pray for peace and prepare for hell Russ
That would definitely be an issue, I guess it pays to know your neighbours.
I would help as much as I could, but I don`t think one person should have to give up their hard earned food to people who were too lazy or ignorant to prepare. However, if they had something they could do for me in exchange for whatever I had that they needed,we could do business.
I guess much would depend on the exact situation and how long it looked to last. Short term, I would give what I had and hope to be able to resupply in the near future. If it looked to be a long term deal, I`d be inclined to hide my stash pretty carefully.
Where I live, most people have a garden or farm, so if we could get by till summer we would probably do okay. If I have food stored, I could maybe trade with some local farmer for some fuel,which they all have on the farm. That would let me keep the generator and truck going,so I could get out hunting. If I was successful, I`d try to trade some meat for things I need.
I really,really hope this never happens. We live pretty simple and cheap, but I find I really do enjoy hot running water, my furnace when it`s -35c, buying food at the store and so on. I think we could see tough times ahead, but I don`t think things will totally fall apart .
I too would help as many as I could and feed as many as I could. That is the way of our rural culture. This is also how we build up the network of people we trust. We do those kind of things during normal good times without thinking about it. Russ
Again, the areas of this Country (and others) that have seen rioting, looting, etc. following a disaster in recent times all had one common factor, and I just don't see it happening here.
Considering where you're located, I'd say you probably have some of the best odds for sure. Not too many places around with a population of decent folks like you guys have there in Utah....
One last thing, It is easier to run and hide in plain sight than most would believe. If you do not believe this think of what the VC did to us. Staying put gives you roots that you would not want Russ
I have let several people in my neighborhood know that if and when it gos down that they can come to my house and I will give them something to protect them selfs with. None of them own firearms they have played with them (target shooting). my feelings are the more people close to you protecting the same intrests the better off you will be
Whatever the geographic situation, the "strength in numbers" strategy is far and away the most likely to succeed.
One of the first things they drilled into us at basic training was that a lone wolf makes an easy target. The best defense against hordes of looters, zombies or just plain hungry people is having your own horde.
Every time this subject comes up I want to refer to that TV show during "Disaster Week" on the history channel about a man, his wife and son and their travails leaving LA after "the big epidemic" has wiped out 90% of humanity. Never can remember the name.
Anyway, that was about the most realistic and well thought out representation of a true long term SHTF scenario I've ever seen.
Some communities went feudal - a strong man sheriff turned warlord took over, fenced the town borders and the folks survived. Not free like we describe it, but alive.
Eventually, people banded together as humans have done for about as long as we've been around and worked for common survival, and survived.
As part of that strategy, I've told several nubile young ladies that in the event of disaster, nuclear war, famine, plague, civil unrest or just the power going off for a couple of hours, there will be plenty of food, drink and comfort available for all of my "friends". Got that idea from Dr. Strangelove...
. . . I think we've got you pretty much figured,.... . . .
You keep talking like you have an army behind you. You, and you only, are the one who has been quite obnoxious throughout this thread. Nobody else has been rude or tried to act like a know it all. You are the first person on the fire, in over two years I have posted here, who has made a fool of themselves when discussing a thread I have started. You sound like you have an "assembly" of your friends who agree with your pronouncements, but all I hear is crickets chirping. Like I say, I don't know you and you don't know me, but I bet we could be friends if we met face to face. Why the animosity? Its just a conversation about possible scenarios. More entertainment than seriousness. Maybe "imagination" is a better word. Relax and enjoy life. It is too short.
You're about to get your sorry azz kicked, and your name taken...
If I wanted coaching , or steering,... I'd avoid YOU like the plague.
You, are something far to new and toxic here to pull off whatever chit you're trying.
Take THAT to the [bleep]' bank,....and psychoanalize that,all to tears Troll
"Weapons",......start with a brain, and a lack of agenda
"Its just a conversation about possible scenarios."
I think not.
"More entertainment than seriousness."
jeez,....he actually SAID that
....[bleep] with the Desert Southwest at your peril, you moron.
what's going down here is not perceived as "entertainment" and we'll (me and my invisible army) be MARKING you as a sorry excuse for anything that could call itself a MAN.
I prefer to be prepared rather than be like Nero and fiddle (or make tin foil hat comments) while Rome/America burns. Not like we haven't seen them setting fire to Detroit, LA etc. before.
Exactly who was it setting fires in Detroit, LA, and/or looting in places like New Orleans? Ever seen anything like that happen in Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana?...
Yeah but you're sitting pretty close to the Yellowstone caldera...it's overdue from what I understand.
I live within five minutes of a shopping center, and was there right after the city made the announcement, and all the bottled water was gone.
You'll probably find a lot of that bottled water was out the back for the staff. That was a common thing in the Christchurch earthquake, as soon as one hit the staff at the markets were taking water and other supplies out the back for them and their families and friends. Same with gas canisters for stoves etc.
Back in the 70's, we had Carter as President. The economy was a freekin mess, high interest and inflation. The SHTF discussions were a big topic then too. People bought and moved to rural retreats, stocked supplies of all kinds. Think of what you would NEED to survive for a period of time, along with some trade goods for barter. Tis a daunting, and scary thing. Would you turn away your friends and niebhors if they came to you hungry?
The more I hear about the ongoing crisis around the world and the draconian policies of our own regime, my thoughts are turning to planning for anarchy in the US should something big happen (ie. nuclear detonation in one or more of our largest cities; total collapse of our monetary system; a breakdown of our food supply/distribution, etc) The more I think about it the more glum it appears for city dwellers such as myself. I rely on our current distribution system of food, gasoline and utilities distribution as well as reliable electronic communications systems, etc. If something were to happen and one needed to protect his family who has thought about what weapons would work? Also, what about a sniper rig in a political situation that may evolve into guerilla warfare?
Currently I am counting on gathering together my children and their families in the event of a widespread anarchy situation. That would mean equipping four men with weapons and ammo (9mm, .45ACP, .223 and .308). I have settled on two Marlin Camp rifles with matching handguns/magazines (S&W Mod 59 in 9mm and 1911 .45ACP) as well as a Mini-14 in .223 and an Icon Preditor Hunter in .223 (sniper) along with several more 1911s and a Browning Hi-Power. I am currently looking for a .308 sniper rig as well. Leaning toward an FN or Savage rifle.
Any thoughts on this?
I don't have any guns You do? I just hang out on here to live vicariously through others.
xxclaro . . . I'm assuming you have plenty of streams in your part of Canada. There are hand held "straw filters" from which you can drink straight from any open water body and the replaceable filter strains out the impurities. Attach a hand pump to it and you can draw enough water for cooking, washing, etc. Just some additional thoughts.
I prefer to be prepared rather than be like Nero and fiddle (or make tin foil hat comments) while Rome/America burns. Not like we haven't seen them setting fire to Detroit, LA etc. before.
Exactly who was it setting fires in Detroit, LA, and/or looting in places like New Orleans? Ever seen anything like that happen in Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana?...
Yeah but you're sitting pretty close to the Yellowstone caldera...it's overdue from what I understand.
I prefer to be prepared rather than be like Nero and fiddle (or make tin foil hat comments) while Rome/America burns. Not like we haven't seen them setting fire to Detroit, LA etc. before.
Exactly who was it setting fires in Detroit, LA, and/or looting in places like New Orleans? Ever seen anything like that happen in Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana?...
Yeah but you're sitting pretty close to the Yellowstone caldera...it's overdue from what I understand.
if it goes ya'll go...
THAT looks to be playing hell with the Shrimp fishery.
nothing wrong with you weapons choices if they work for you....a more daunting task would be the logistics of food, water, medical supplies, sanitation, etc for such a large group of people in the event of a meltdown. sounds like you need to plan for a platoon sized unit....and prepare accordingly.
I'll tell ya' what,
......Re : people who aren't FIRST AND FOREMOST focused on the logistics you call out,....and instead obsess about firepower, and firepower alone ?
They'll more then likely be SUPPLYING those who did with arms and ammo, and the greater majority posthumously, I'd venture.
"Well , we got guns,....let's go get some." ......totally predictable.
As is their subsequent (and self expedited) demise.
GTC
Absolutely, 100% correct.
City people have this notion of arming themselves to the teeth and then... what... spilling out into the countryside looking for a gunfight?! This isn't the movies where the bad guys always miss while the good guys pick off the inept bad guys like a video game.
You REALLY want to be ready, buy some cheap land, preferably with water or at least a cistern or large tank, and get a cabin put in. If the SHTF, proceed to said cabin AVOIDING THE USE OF GUNS AT ALL COSTS. Well, almost all costs.
That said, forget the mini-14; get a couple cheap AR15's instead. And a couple Glocks. For .308 keep it simple- Rem SPS or the like.
If this really happened, what'd end up being most valuable would be a .22 and a shotgun, though. You can buy single-shot shotguns brand new for $100. .22's aren't much more.
At my country place we have water covered (lol), heat for the house/cabin covered for life, we keep a lot of food on hand. I have a whole seperate 1000 ft/2 insulated building that could house many in a pinch. Long-term, food is a biggie. Those articles everywhere now about feeding your family from a backyard garden... rendering raccoons for lamp oil... etc... total BS. It takes a LOT of work to grow a lot of food, and that's from someone with basically all the land I want to work. So if you truly plan on this, you better make sure your cabin is on very good soil, and has reliable water, and you better have a good tiller or small tractor, and help, and luck (the farmer's secret weapon, or nemesis, depending).
What I still need is a big gas/diesel tank and a REAL generator. The generators i want (3-cyl diesel) cost enough to have held me back, and i cant see much point in a cheapo genset... And some new Claymores. Mine are getting old-looking out there.
When the SHTF it's survival of the fittest. I intend to eat the unfit first, all those maccas addicts and burger king junkies will be a feast for the taking. There's enough fat on them that rending racoons for lamp oil won't be necessary, I'll just melt them down or stick a wick up their a$$ and turn them into candles.
Watch zombieland, it states in there that the fatties are the first to die...
Cases of rifles. Boxes of pistols. Isolated 200 miles from the city. Four fully stocked cabins scattered along 15 miles of line. Traps stored and live at a each cabin. Lots of wood for stoves. Tools both hand and power. Fuel on hand for about 3 years if I stretched it out. Phone books up the yingyang for TP. They stack and store easier. I think I could survive it but it will be ugly to say the least. Plenty of ammo, powder and gold for trading stock even. And a few people I can trust to help out and me with them.
The more I hear about the ongoing crisis around the world and the draconian policies of our own regime, my thoughts are turning to planning for anarchy in the US should something big happen (ie. nuclear detonation in one or more of our largest cities; total collapse of our monetary system; a breakdown of our food supply/distribution, etc) The more I think about it the more glum it appears for city dwellers such as myself. I rely on our current distribution system of food, gasoline and utilities distribution as well as reliable electronic communications systems, etc. If something were to happen and one needed to protect his family who has thought about what weapons would work? Also, what about a sniper rig in a political situation that may evolve into guerilla warfare?
Currently I am counting on gathering together my children and their families in the event of a widespread anarchy situation. That would mean equipping four men with weapons and ammo (9mm, .45ACP, .223 and .308). I have settled on two Marlin Camp rifles with matching handguns/magazines (S&W Mod 59 in 9mm and 1911 .45ACP) as well as a Mini-14 in .223 and an Icon Preditor Hunter in .223 (sniper) along with several more 1911s and a Browning Hi-Power. I am currently looking for a .308 sniper rig as well. Leaning toward an FN or Savage rifle.
A 5"fireworks mortar duct taped with #4 buck about eight feet off the ground. Took stuff out and lite things up......for quite a while at that. Cheap and easy.
1)Most of the folks planning for some post-apocalyptic mad max existence thankfully don't have the psychopathic mindset needed to survive in such a situation.
2)The gun hoarders would most likely be a hindrance to societal recovery after such an event.
3)Lots of these survivalist types, while in their cubicles, like to think of a world where they could finally settle some scores and be warlords.
1)Most of the folks planning for some post-apocalyptic mad max existence thankfully don't have the psychopathic mindset needed to survive in such a situation.
2)The gun hoarders would most likely be a hindrance to societal recovery after such an event.
3)Lots of these survivalist types, while in their cubicles, like to think of a world where they could finally settle some scores and be warlords.
I tell ya, silence is key! I'm stocking up on blow guns. Maybe a few BB's for the large angry critters. As far as food is concerned, I've got a line on some school vending machines. There's enough peanuts and sugar in those to keep me going for awhile. And for meds, you don't need to look any further than the old folk's home down the street! All kinds of meds there...
Edited to add that throwing stars will be worth their weight in gold, I'm telling ya!
I tell ya, silence is key! I'm stocking up on blow guns. Maybe a few BB's for the large angry critters. As far as food is concerned, I've got a line on some school vending machines. There's enough peanuts and sugar in those to keep me going for awhile. And for meds, you don't need to look any further than the old folk's home down the street! All kinds of meds there...
Edited to add that throwing stars will be worth their weight in gold, I'm telling ya!
I like your thinking.
I'm putting school cafeterias on the list of places to raid. They've got lots of food and nobody's going to be there guarding it.
I live a half mile away from a high school that stocked to the gills.
1)Most of the folks planning for some post-apocalyptic mad max existence thankfully don't have the psychopathic mindset needed to survive in such a situation.
2)The gun hoarders would most likely be a hindrance to societal recovery after such an event.
3)Lots of these survivalist types, while in their cubicles, like to think of a world where they could finally settle some scores and be warlords.
Lost my mind some time ago. Society should be hindered for without pain there is no appreciation. I don't have a cubical either. Guess I'm [bleep], all I got is a bad attitude and an icepick.
By far the best SHTF weapon is a large and well diversified, well dispersed net worth.
IMO you are both right and wrong. You give the impression that the stock market, the dollar and the banks are going to save you. You've mentioned having some gold but most here certainly see you as a big money wannabe. The stock market not only can collapse, but has several times. Of course, you're more big-time than this but most here aren't-a friend of mine, a gun dealer, lost over 100 grand when Enron collapsed. For a rural Kansan of what, ten years ago, that was pretty harsh. The government has become so desperate and venal that nothing they did regarding banking/money would surprise me. How will the debt ever be taken care of? Default? The dollar would go to nothing. You've got let's say a million in savings and overnight it is worth maybe $10000. You've got another million in the stock market and it goes overnight to $100k. You've got $100000 in Gold, it's secure, right? Another poster told the story of Roosevelt's gold confiscation. Where do you keep yours? (I am not asking and don't want an answer-it's rhetorical.) $100 grand in a gunsafe is pretty insecure. I don't care how safe you think your Fort Knox is. So you've got 90% of it in a lock box at the bank. This member's grandmother had hers in a safety deposit box in a Dallas bank. The Bank employees were deputized and went through everybody's boxes, removing the gold. So she had paper money when she went to take it out. Think about all your gold hoard confiscated even at today's dollar exchange, let alone after a complete collapse. So not counting real estate, you've went from $2.1 mil net worth to like $120,000 overnight. But hey, your real estate is worth something, right? Wrong. Nobody has any "money" except the big boys. The real estate market tanks, plus they raise the already exorbitant Cali real estate taxes and you're looking at being completely out of money and unable to pay them in like, two years. But hey, you've got your hoard of weapons that you secretly bought never letting any of your "buds" on the 'fire know you were taking their advice. You've got all that ammo, right? Where in the hell are you going to put all your shixt if you're homeless.
During the Great Depression, all us Kansas hicks, Missouri Pukes, Arkies and last but not least, Okies that caravanned out to the San Joaquin valley and picked fruit lost our lands not because we couldn't tough it out eatin' coons and jackrabbits and scratching a bit of wheat out of the ground. We lost the land because the government demanded their taxes. People who hadn't been in debt, suddenly were, and then a couple of years later, BOOM! They're wondering what hit them as they pile stuff on their Clampettmobile and head for Bakersfield.
If I were you, I'd spend less time trolling the rubes and take advantage of the fact that you've got more money than most of us here.
. . . I think we've got you pretty much figured,.... . . .
You keep talking like you have an army behind you. You, and you only, are the one who has been quite obnoxious throughout this thread. Nobody else has been rude or tried to act like a know it all. You are the first person on the fire, in over two years I have posted here, who has made a fool of themselves when discussing a thread I have started. You sound like you have an "assembly" of your friends who agree with your pronouncements, but all I hear is crickets chirping. Like I say, I don't know you and you don't know me, but I bet we could be friends if we met face to face. Why the animosity? Its just a conversation about possible scenarios. More entertainment than seriousness. Maybe "imagination" is a better word. Relax and enjoy life. It is too short.
You're about to get your sorry azz kicked, and your name taken...
If I wanted coaching , or steering,... I'd avoid YOU like the plague.
You, are something far to new and toxic here to pull off whatever chit you're trying.
Take THAT to the [bleep]' bank,....and psychoanalize that,all to tears Troll
"Weapons",......start with a brain, and a lack of agenda
GTC
I just felt now is the time to let this Arizona trailer trash know you can kiss my Okie azz!
Here is an interesting link to read incase the S does ever HTF. Bosnian Survivalist
Edited to add.....it's not all about guns, though they remain a significant part. It answers quite a few questions I had about day to day life. Who survived and who didn't. Quite a few died of disease.
. . . During the Great Depression, all us Kansas hicks, Missouri Pukes, Arkies and last but not least, Okies that caravanned out to the San Joaquin valley and picked fruit lost our lands not because we couldn't tough it out eatin' coons and jackrabbits and scratching a bit of wheat out of the ground. We lost the land because the government demanded their taxes. People who hadn't been in debt, suddenly were, and then a couple of years later, BOOM! They're wondering what hit them as they pile stuff on their Clampettmobile and head for Bakersfield. . .
I know families here in Oklahoma who are living on the trust funds set up by the bankers who foreclosed on thousands of farms in North and Northwestern OK along the Kansas border. These few bankers amassed 10s of thousands of acres of land along with the mineral rights for pennies on the dollar. Today this land is covered with oil wells and has created untold wealth, all because of the dust bowl and the Great Depression.
There is a ton of stuff written about the topic of SHTF. One of the most interesting is by a guy who went through it during Argentina's financial meltdown. My own take is that weaponry is just one part of it.
I'm not convinced that rural folk will necessarily be better off, at least in the longer term. Depends on fuel vs. working livestock, and growing seasons, among other factors. Think Amish.
I'm just glad I'm not any younger, but I worry about my sons and grandchildren.
Paul
FWIW...
Re: Your comment about rural vs urban: I visited once with a guy who was quite familiar with the judicious administration of violence. We were talking about a real societal breakdown. He told me that for a rural setting, if the place did not have a minimum of four able defenders, it would stand virtually no chance of withstanding an attack by one or two experienced operators. He said four able guys could easily run off a couple of truckloads of your average dumbass looters if they did two things. First, see then coming at some distance and Second, engage at distance. His advice was don't let anybody within 100 yards of the domicile.
Of course, who knows what SHTF looks like? Like was said before, adapt to the situation as it presents itself.
access to food, water, shelter, keeping dry and warm... first aid access or knowledge...
even the lowly Boy Scouts have plenty of good literature on how to survive in the wilderness.... for different reasons then SHTF, but still plenty of good info...
armament is important, but should be further down the list, after the above...
and for all the Tin Foil Hat accusers, what is it with the Attitude of "It Can't Happen Here Syndrome" in this country? what the hell makes us so special...
no one would have believed that it was possible for some ragtag group to attack New York and Washington DC and cause any damage before 9/11 happened... but it did happen, and the "it can't happen here crowd" just STFU for a while... until it all blew over...
the ranger managers were talking the other day when I was over there... even the local Police units that use the range all the time, have a new "Special Unit", that they won't fill in the range managers about at all... answer no questions, and when they train, they don't want just one of the 5 ranges, they want the entire complex shut down...
and this is in rinkydink Josephine County Oregon...
. . . During the Great Depression, all us Kansas hicks, Missouri Pukes, Arkies and last but not least, Okies that caravanned out to the San Joaquin valley and picked fruit lost our lands not because we couldn't tough it out eatin' coons and jackrabbits and scratching a bit of wheat out of the ground. We lost the land because the government demanded their taxes. People who hadn't been in debt, suddenly were, and then a couple of years later, BOOM! They're wondering what hit them as they pile stuff on their Clampettmobile and head for Bakersfield. . .
I know families here in Oklahoma who are living on the trust funds set up by the bankers who foreclosed on thousands of farms in North and Northwestern OK along the Kansas border. These few bankers amassed 10s of thousands of acres of land along with the mineral rights for pennies on the dollar. Today this land is covered with oil wells and has created untold wealth, all because of the dust bowl and the Great Depression.
dang, could you not have just started a new thread? Dragging up one that is many years old? WTF?
Heard on Levin that the GAO says that we are only 10-25 years away from financial collapse due in a large part to Tyrant Obama the Liar's deficit spending. This collapse will be a SHTF event and tin foil won't help.
nothing wrong with you weapons choices if they work for you....a more daunting task would be the logistics of food, water, medical supplies, sanitation, etc for such a large group of people in the event of a meltdown. sounds like you need to plan for a platoon sized unit....and prepare accordingly.
I'll tell ya' what,
......Re : people who aren't FIRST AND FOREMOST focused on the logistics you call out,....and instead obsess about firepower, and firepower alone ?
They'll more then likely be SUPPLYING those who did with arms and ammo, and the greater majority posthumously, I'd venture.
"Well , we got guns,....let's go get some." ......totally predictable.
As is their subsequent (and self expedited) demise.
GTC
crossfire, I believe those types are referred to as marauders.
Well yes, if ever the SHTF to the extent that you are seriously looking to take your family and yourself bush for an extended time frame, you will probably be press-ganged into the military with every other swinging dick that can stand straight-ish and see over a hundred yards. And if you cannot you will stand at the conveyer belt with all the others putting munitions together.
Nice old thread. The book Alas, Babylon covered this scenario very well. It was based on a Russian nuke attack in the 50s. The author presented some pretty good solutions for survival and also addressed armed gangs, medical emergencies, and community defense.
I had stew made with beaver that tasted pretty good. Don't know if it was the whole thing, backstraps,? Same guy also ate muskrats, bobcat, cougar, and who knows what else. I tried muskrat cooked the same as the beaver and couldn't tell the difference. I've been told that every man should try eating beaver.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Everything_Else/Clocks/Cuckoo_clock.gif)
![[Linked Image]](http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/robbinmyers/Wellhead15.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s33/orangeokie/Crossfireops5.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s33/orangeokie/Crossfireops1.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s33/orangeokie/Crossfireops.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s33/orangeokie/Crossfireops2-1.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b115/robbinmyers/Beanfart1.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Caldera-Ashfall-620x418.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://s144.photobucket.com/user/lt13demi/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image-8.jpg.html)
![[Linked Image]](http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab327/Cinch308/842ebe70b7c055362b27784423bee5c2.jpg)