I read this in another thread but I'm at a loss why some feel that a poverty level less than living wage is unreasonably high.

I'm really curious why some folks feel this way. Help me out here.

Explain to me why having a lower minimum wage would benefit anyone other than employers who want to increase profits. Do get me wrong, I'm a capitalist at heart and I don't have a problem with companies turning a profit but to impose an even lower standard of living to increase business/job growth doesn't seem like the right way to go. The fast food industry and retail are thriving at current minimum wage levels and consumer prices are still reasonable.

Why does it need to be different with other employers/businesses?

What positive effect would lowering the minimum wage have on society and a biggie - tax revenues?

We already supplement the working poor with the EIC and food stamps. I'm not in favor of the current federal welfare distributions but what would happen if these programs were cut or trimmed (which they should be) and a lower minimum wage was implemented?

How poor would you want the working poor to be?

minimum wage actually has lil to do with much to alot of business owners like myself....be nice to pay $7.35 but to keep decent help ive got to pay atleast $10 and start throwing in benefits....keep in mind though where you live has alot to do with things....here a house payment is often cheaper than rent and in the middle of the housing bubble i paid less for my house than you pay for a decked out 1 ton pickup.....$10 an hour goes a hell of alot farther here than in NYC.....

Does not matter anyway. Most service businesses here hire twice what they need and then only work them part time,avoiding the Minimum Wage.

No offense intended, but your position reveals a basic lack of knowledge of basic economics and human nature. To help you understand, imagine a minimum price for milk set by the government, because they decided that dairy owners had a right to expect a certain minimum price for their product. Thereafter, it would be illegal for retailers to charge less than that price for milk. Imagine what would happen. Let's say they set the price at $6.00 per gallon. What effect would that have on your shopping habits? What effect would your modified shopping habits have on the dairy industry? Wages are simply the price of labor. Same exact principles apply.

No miminum wage might allow kids to get summer jobs again.

Yep.

No minimum wage would also help, to some extent, drive the illegals back across the border.

Illegals are used to keep from paying minimun wage. Goes along with what you've said, sorta.

good analogy TRH, most often nada good comes from gov't setting the price of anything

Agreed. I'd love to put my boys to work, even if they only made $10 a day. Hard to find work for the kids these days, as adults are working a lot of the jobs the kids would get.

There should not be a gov't mandated wage because its none of the gov't business what an employer agrees to pay and what an empoyee agrees to accept. Ditto on price supports, if I want to sell it, and you want to buy it, its not gov't business what price we agree to.

Yep. You well state the moral argument against a minimum wage. It's both immoral and economically wrongheaded.

Your comparison is not relative to minimum wage. $6.00 per gallon for milk? It's half that price. Your example is the equivalent of eliminating minimum wage and employers paying $3.50 an hour because they can get away with it. You've cited an example of prices going up which is the opposite of eliminating minimum wage standards and wages going down.

TRH, no offense but your basic lack of knowledge regarding human nature would put some people into indentured servitude at slave wages. There are greedy bastids that would do it and people desperate enough to go along with it. How is that a positive for anyone? Remember coal mines, company housing and company stores and slave wages?

In the one circumstance of kids and summer jobs I can see less than the current minimun wage being justifiable. Not hearing any other good examples though.

Illegals - nope. Lowering or eliminating minimum wage wouldn't drive them back across the border. There's hoardes of them that work under the table at whatever they can get and they don't pay taxes. It cheaper for employers to hire illegals. Eliminating minimum wage won't effect illegal employees working in an illegal employment system.



TRH, answer this question ..... "What positive effect would lowering or eliminating the minimum wage have on society and a biggie - tax revenues?"

After you answer this; What is the present POSITIVE effect?

Positive effect: More jobs for first time workers (teenagers) with which to develop good work ethics and job experience. Minimum wage is like cutting off the first five rungs on a ladder. The result is that only very tall people (analogous to those with lots of skills and experience to offer an employer) can then make any use of it. Short people (analogous to those with little or no skill or experience to offer employers) will never get a chance to get on, let alone start to climb, and will thus become dependent on others for all things ladder related.

More tax revenues, too, because more people employed and more people who developed job skills, work ethic, and experience while young to take better, higher paying, jobs as they become heads of households.

PS I'm sorry you didn't understand my dairy prices analogy. I tried, though.

PPS Why do you stop at recommending the current minimum wage? Why not reset the minimum wage to $50.00 per hour? This way, following your logic, everyone will rise instantly to the middle class simply by getting a job flipping burgers at Burger King, right? What's the down side? Please answer this.

business owners pay the lowest amount they can get away with to get the result they want.....no way to change that.....depending on the business even taking illegals out of the equation, there are some ways to get around the minimum wage legally if you want to pay lower depending on the business....

me to get the results i want i start at $10/hr without benefits and go up from there......some businesses requires them to hire someone at 5 times the minimum wage plus benefits to get the results they want....

cant fathom how your gonna change this even with legislation cause raise the minimum wage to high and business owners will often say [bleep] it, sell out and start working for a paycheck instead.....lower the minimum wage and you still run into the wall i do in finding the help you want and often having to pay over minimum just to find someone to show up for work every day....

You just made the case for "the market system" vs the gov't mandated system. Well done.

TRH,

Again, I'm going to disagree. Eliminating the minimum wage and subjecting unskilled or unqualified workers who have to support themselves on less than the current poverty level less than living wage minimum standard that govt then subisizes with food stamps and EIC is not a solution.

Teenagers living at home or anyone else that doesn't rely soley on wages earned to support themselves could tolerate a lower wage. And I said tolerate. In those circumstances a viable solution would be a lower minimum wage with no taxes withheld provided that they don't exceed a given yearly amount. As it is "summer jobs" fall below the minimum required to pay taxes. Something along these lines would give employers a break and allow "kids" a chance at work experience.

That's one solution without negatively impacting the working poor.

fh, all of that sounds nice and is feel good but the laws of economics prevail in that the unskilled will have to work for what the market will bear. Period. We are in an int'l marketplace now and there ain't no going back.

The skilled have negotiation power. Get skilled or get f'kd, that's about how it is.

My two daughters worked at bar/restaruants through college and during the summer. The minimum wage was appreciated - they used it to pay taxes on a portion of the tips they claimed.

Fish head,

Do you have the right to work for less money than someone else, or do you need the government to protect you from yourself?

Here's another question for those in favor of no govt mandates and a pure market system with regards to wages.

Without minimum wage standards and with our current unemployment system would unemployment claims go up or down?

Think about it before you answer. It starts to get complicated.

Idealism is one thing but practical solutions are another.

A minimum wage does not benefit anyone. What a minimum wage does is outlaw economic activity that doesn't provide a revenue stream sufficient to support the minimum wage, i. e. if Joe Capitalist can only make a reasonable return by hiring workers at a wage below the minimum, then the hiring doesn't happen. Without a minimum wage someone hired will have some money, and everything they buy will be cheaper because there is no longer an artificial floor to the cost of everything they need.

On this one, who is being the Idealist?

If you went to the meat counter and they were charging the same for sirloin steaks, new york strip, and filet mignon which would you buy?

The minimum wage screws people at the bottom... if you're forced to pay more than a position is worth anyway, why not hire someone truly worth the money??

The question isn't how poor "working class people" ought to be, but what the market is willing to pay those who are willing to work.

Keep in mind that this is inextricably bound up with inflation; if we didn't keep raising the minimum wage, inflation would slow, and if we could stop inflation (through the ending of other monetary policies detrimental to the economic wellbeing of our poorest) the poorest wouldn't need constant artificial raises from the gov't.


ps- what is so wrong with businesses making money when not being forced to pay someone more than they're worth? You sure don't sound like a capitalist... in my business when we make money we expand and hire more people, and are able to give merit increases to those who deserve it. Businesses that profit by screwing their employees don't profit for long; it is in their economic best interest to make sure their people are well compensated.

Whether I get a wage increase this year or not, I WANT MY EMPLOYER TO MAKE MONEY HAND OVER FIST. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just as dumb as the business owner who profits by screwing his employee.

Know who the largest employer of minimum wage employees is? Colleges and universities.
So, who are the minimum wage employees?
The students, who are already priviledged and fortunate enough to be attending college.
Who then, pays the price for a rise in the minimum wage?
Whoever is paying the (already astronomical)tuition.
Net result: college gets more and more out of reach of anyone but the wealthy, further increasing the income gap.
Unintended consequences...

Correct. If it is too high for the position, you either find the one person who is efficient and works really hard, or you may consider eliminating the position entirely and doing without because it is not worth it, or pushing it off as an additional task to someone already making more. If you could get two for the same money as the mandated minimum wage, you may put two people to work for the true value of the service.

I also find it hard to believe that the government can decide that the most menial job that man can imagine, that may require no skill or danger, and that only requires a person with a pulse, is worth $7.25 an hour.

Tell me WTF position you think isn't worth 7.35 an hour ? I'd really like to know how many here would work for that and just what they'd be willing to do for it. Remembering of course that a meal at Mickey D's will cost you more than an hours labor and you'll have to sweat for an hour and a half for a pack of cigarettes. The statement above that most minimum wage earners {or barely over minimum} are students is absolute horseschitt and reflects a big misunderstanding of what is going on with the workforce, particularly in rural area's. Believe me there are tons of adults working those low wage jobs and trying to make a living from them {absolutely impossible} and more and more are doing it every year as the "service industry" replaces manufacturiing as the country's biggest employer. I'd almost like to see minimum wage done away with myself just to see what might happen. But I'd also want to see the taxpayer funded government safety net done away with at the same time. I'm sure there'd be no shortage of employers willing to pay ten dollars a day but without food stamps and such to "make up the difference" for the working poor I'm thinking there just might not be anybody left who'd be willing to work for less than a liveable wage.

Yep. That's why in the old days when you drove up to a gas station you had a team of young men attending to your car, one checking the oil, one pumping the gas, another wiping the windows, i.e., because without a minimum wage, it made economic sense to hire all those folks to compete for customers. With the minimum wage, it makes no economic sense to hire any of those folks, and you have to do it all yourself or not get it done.

Still waiting for you to answer this question: Why do you stop at recommending the current minimum wage? Why not reset the minimum wage to $50.00 per hour? This way, following your logic, everyone will rise instantly to the middle class simply by getting a job flipping burgers at Burger King, right?

Yeah, that's a great situation ! Just remember when those gas station attendants go home Joe taxpayer {you} will be providing his groceries, medical care, heating fuel etc. because he isn't paid enough by his employer to afford to buy his own. Maybe you want to help pay his wages so his employer can make more profit but I don't.

You miss the point entirely.

Everybody guages their own salary based upon where it is relative to minimum wage. When minimum wage goes up, so does everyone else's wage, which forces the supposed "need" for another increase in the minimum wage.

The question is whether a minimum wage truly benefits those you claim it benefits and a cursory understanding of economics tells you it doesn't. It can't.

As TRH points out, there are many people who don't work now because of the high minimum wage. I've had a job of one sort or another since I was 12, but both my children who are 12 and older have no where to go for jobs because of this.

Fact is, 7.35 isn't a living wage at all. So how is THAT an arguement FOR the minimum wage? Are you saying it should be higher?

My question for the bleeding hearts: why not $50/hr? Where is your compassion, anyway? Can I hear $75? Or at least $20? What is "fair"?

I guarantee you'd change your opinion if you owned a business and had to make actual business decisions to keep more than yourself employed. This minimum wage screws those at the bottom most, but everyone else along the way by driving up the cost of doing business which then gets passed along to the buying public.

If you cannot bargain for a salary higher than that, you should not impregnate a woman, and if a woman, you should not get pregnant. Just a harsh reality of life. The solution to this harsh reality isn't to eliminate the kinds of jobs that unskilled people can do, which is precisely all the minimum wage does. Sub minimum wage jobs are bottom rung jobs, not designed to support families. Designed to support someone living by him/herself (meaning no dependents, not meaning exclusive occupancy) in a rented room, or living at home with mom and dad. The main value of that type of job is the experience it affords, and the opportunity to establish a "reliable employee" track record that you can use to get yourself a higher paying job later on.

And my question for you is why not ten dollars a day ?

What do people not understand about demand (skilled) versus the alternative? We have a world of the "alternative" types out there and they are growing.

No skills and those that have degress most often have "soft ciriculum" degrees for which there is no demand. Add to that they are sitting on a butt load of student debt that there is no way they can repay with the degree that they have.

What is so hard to understand about this?

Folks like you, though meaning well, better get in gear and realize the world we live in.

Why not? If the employer is willing to pay and the employee willing to work, I have no problem with it whatsoever.

Your post implies that our choice is between a minimum wage and living on gov't assistance, yet I make plenty to support my family of 7, without any help from the gov't in the form of handouts or price controls.

If I decide my employer isn't paying me what I'm worth I'm free to go find someone who will. Everyone deserves that privilege, and the minimum wage denies it to countless people. It also denies labor to employers who need it, or forces them to pay more than it is worth which raises our living expenses.

Seems to me the answer isn't as you suggest, one gov't handout or price control vs. another, but it is that the gov't should get out of the business of business (which it ought not be in in the first place) and let the market decide what happens. Then tax burdens will be lower, allowing you and I to give to charities designed for helping the poor rather than building systems that encourage them to remain as they are.

You're so out of touch with reality you don't even realize that an "individual" CANNOT "rent a room" and support himself {food, clothing, utilities, medical care etc.} on minimum wage unless he works 80 hours a week. You think you can ? Tell me how you're going to pay 450-500 a month for rent, another 300.00 for utilities, then feed {200.00 a month bare minimum if you eat nothing but crap} and clothe yourself on 240.00 a week ? That's what you'll have to work with after deductions if you've got a full time minimum wage job. Forget keeping a vehicle on the road for now cuz it just ain't happenin' on minimum wage.

It's folks like YOU who don't see the reality of what's going on in America today douche bag !

What I've bolded and italicized is part of the problem. Government should not be providing those things. Once government starts sticking its nose where its nose doesn't belong, you get a slippery slope - we'll provide food stamps, we'll provide medical care, we'll provide heating fuel, now to cut the amount of our welfare payments we need to set "minimum wage" at a higher level? What that "minimum wage" is is a tax on everyone who purchases goods and services. Then we get back to the question of why is government involved in paying people for no reason other than they are breathing?

Our gov't can no longer afford the bureauracy necessary to enforce their detailed interference.

What you really have there is "Joe taxpayer" subsidizing the wages of Wal-Mart's {or whatever ABC low wage employer} employees. Don't you like "making up" for what Wal-Mart isn't paying their own workers ? Makes it a helluva lot easier for them to make big profits when you're willing to help them pay their labor expenses !

$300/month for utilities? How big a place are you talking about renting?

Most people working minimum wage are young and typically don't need medical care.

With regard to rent, if someone is not making much money, he might need to look at doing like some of the illegals do and putting several bunkbeds in an apartment and paying $100/month apiece in rent and splitting utilities similarly. Another alternative is to move to a cheaper city/state to live.

Who said everyone has to own a motor vehicle? Bicycles aren't very expensive and they are very low maintenance. Walking is cheap too. Public transportation is available in cities. Catching a ride with someone is often an option, too.

A person can live on $5/hour at a 40 hr/wk job if they try.

A minimum wage type job isn't expected to be a permanent type job. Yes, for some people that type of job might be, but if we took away government's artificial supports, then people would know they had to develop skills to survive.

You just don't get it and doubt you ever will.

State clearly, here and now, what your solution is.

What are you talking about? What I'm saying is that the taxpayer shouldn't be subsidizing anyone who doesn't work for the government in some productive mode.

I agree with Blackheart. For the rest of you here's the math.



7.25 per hour x 133 hours per month = $964.25

Less ~ 16% in taxes ($154.28) = $809.97 take home per month.


$400.00 a month to rent a room plus utilities. Say ? $450.00

Three meals a day for 30 days @ $3.00 a meal = ? $210.00 I guess if you had to you could spend less on food but how many of you can honestly say you do.

$809.97 - ($450.00 + $210.00) = $149.97 a month leftover for ....

A car, gas, insurance ...... easy enough to say skip that and ride a bike but is it practical though? As a former business owner and employer one question I always asked was, "Do you have reliable transportation?" If they no, my answer was .... Next!

What about clothes, medical and some form of entertainment to keep yourself sane? What happens if you need a new ...... pair of eyeglasses ... a pair of shoes ... a winter coat ... a Christmas gift? How about just one of those unplanned expenses that every runs into?


How can anyone survive on less?

Who's out of touch?? Ever hear of roommates??

The solution to what's going on in America right now is more economic liberty and smaller government.

I don't see how minimum wage has to be equated with a sufficient lifestyle for a single person to live no matter how menial the job. I also don't see it as a government responsibility to make up the shortfall. There should not be any correlation.

Well said.

Another point well taken.

If you're poor like that, you have to share expenses with someone. Can't exclusively occupy a room or apartment. Reality of life. Solution is to work hard, establish a track record, gain experience, become more marketable.

That doesn't take a big place. Winters are long and cold here Jack and fuel oil ain't [bleep]' cheap ! And at NYSEG prices if you can get by without using at least 75.00 a month electric you're gonna be living in the dark ! And let's not forget laundry expenses. Last time my washer broke down it cost me about 20.00 to wash and dry a weeks worth of laundry. In case you'd forgotten, folks who actually "work" fore a living tend to get dirty !

As I responded above, people can live on $5/hr if they need to. If you are a business owner, feel free to pay people $7.25/hr, $10/hr, $20/hr or whatever you want to. Someone making minimum wage probably is going to need to have a roommate, or multiple roommates, to pay for rent and utilities.

Someone can live on $50/week of groceries if they buy smart. That's particularly doable if one shares the cost of home-prepared meals with roommates.

A bike can be reliable transportation if a person maintains his bike.

When I was in grad school, I lived on around $920/month after taxes (had a fixed salary of $1000/month), and some of my colleagues were getting by on a pre-tax salary of only $700 or $800 per month. Out of that $920/month, I would tithe $100/month, pay around $350/month for rent/utilities, and paid an average of around $50 per month in school fees (total about $600/year), and an average of around $50 to $75/month for books (cost of books during year was in the neighborhood of $600 to $800 spread out over the year). I finished 21 months of graduate school with more money than I started with.

Marketable to who ya dumb schitt ? I know folks around here now who have college degree's and are working as janitors for 8 bucks an hour because that's all they can get.

If utilities are too expensive for what you make, start finding out where you can live within your means. Keep your place colder in the winter and warmer in the summer. A lot of places in this country have mild winters and heating oil isn't an expense at all.

and the reason for that is government interference in the marketplace. The source of this whole mega recession we are in was government (Barney Frank, Bill Clinton, and others) putting pressure of Fannie and Freddie to make unwise housing loans. If employers could pay a janitor $4 or $5 per hour, then they might be able to hire more college graduates in college graduate-type jobs. Government is the source of our problems, not the solution.

Why not equate to a single person? What about someone just of high school that has to go to work for a living? What percentage of people attend college? What percentage of people enter the workforce unskilled and underqualified?

I wholeheartedly agree that govt shouldn't make up the shortfall.

Razorback has it right and touches at the heart of the problem.




Without reform to our entire system of unemployment, welfare, foods stamps, govt subsidies, the medical system and on and on ............

Eliminating minimum wage is impractical.

So you expect your fellow Americans to live like illegal Mexican migrant workers huh ? I suppose you COULD live on 5 bucks an hour, if you don't mind living in a grass hut and driving a jackass to work !

Ok fundamental problem with your whole arguement:

Since when is it the government's job to take care of people?

Your whole position is grounded upon an incorrect presupposition: that the gov't has the Constitutional authority to take care of its citizens.

It not only doesn't have the authority to do so, it also doesn't have the ability.

Allright you two dummies, I'm going to try to explain it a lttle more simply. (Since that is obviously needed). Why does Md's pay around $10? Because that is what they have to pay to get workers. They cannot get enough competant people at min. wage. If there were no min., companies would have to pay what the market would bear. If they OFFERED too little, no one would apply. Your version of $10 a day is just more liberal lies. NO ONE would work for that unless that was sufficient.
Dumheart sounds like the typical union slug, who wants mommy to pay him for just showing up. If the company cannot make money from your work, it CANNOT PAY YOU!
The market sets the pay rate. Any time the gov't sets a price, it messes up the whole works. EVERY TIME. An artificial price cannot last, because the market ultimately overrides.
I would like to see both of you go out, start a business, and hire anyone who comes along, first come, first served, no exceptions. I also want you to pay a "livable" wage. (you still have not said what that is.) No matter what kind of quality work they do, you cannot fire them, and you have to keep paying them, even though they are not earning you enough to make a profit. It will not be long before you will be losing money, because the market will dictate that you will not have any customers, because your employees do not give them what is necessary to keep them coming back. This is why you will descriminate when hiring, because you will find that not all of the applicants can do the job that you have. That is what the wage you offer will reflect. This is what the minimum wage eliminates, discrimination by ability. You will not pay a 16yo $50/hr. to cook french fries, because the job will not earn you that much. If you can hire a young person to sweep the floor in the afternoon for $5/hr., you will give them a job, pay them for the work, and they will be earning it. If you have to pay them union wages and benefits just for sweeping, you will not hire them, because you can not afford that much.
I make what the market will pay. If it is not enough, I find something better. That is MY responsibility.
Really, really simple.

What do you think $400.00 a month rent gets? That's what it costs to share a place or just rent a room in the last three states I've lived in at today's rental costs.

Holy schitt you're kidding me ! That's not my argument AT ALL and never has been. VROOOOM, right over your head ! My position all along has been that I {taxpayer} am DAMNED sick and tired of subsidizing the underpaid employee's of Wal-Mart, Jiffy-Mart etc. because their low down, dirty, rotten greedy employers don't pay them enough to make ends meet but know damned good and well that as a taxpayer they can "pass the buck" onto me ! You want people to work for you ? Then pay them enough they can live on it. But you say you can't afford to pay 4 attendants for your gas station cuz minimum wage is too high ? Then hire one full time attendant and pay him a liveable wage or pump the gas yourself ya lazy bastard !

I asked early on and got not answer.

How is it adventageous for an employer to pay his employees less than what they're worth?

If an employee is free to go and get a job paying more, then why would you deny the employer the same right?

You are indeed suggesting that the gov't has to take care of people... you just think its because of "evil corporations". The question of the identity of the screwer isn't between big corps or untrained would-be workers... it is both of those parties and us who are being screwed by the Gov't.

Say what you will, you're seeking to justify an unjust policy of our gov't by illustrating how tough it is to get by. By implication therefore, you're saying that the gov't has the right and power to do so.

Hey why don't you just lick the sweat off'n my balls ya ignorant bastard ! At least you'd get to see what balls actually look like for once in your miserable little life.

It is you who is missing the point.

The one full time attendant's liveable wage (at least according to your definition thereof) isn't worth the cost, so he doesn't get hired.

Seriously; do you have any idea what it takes to run a business?? Have you even tried to think it through?

These evil businesses that you're criticizing are the driving force in this economy, no matter how much you seem to think it is the gov't who can set things aright.

Right now it costs too much to hire people. The minimum wage contributes to that. If we do away with it, some hiring would increase, and I guarantee you those who get a job as a result of it won't appreciate you arguing that they shouldn't have by saying that the gov't should control the prices of their labor.

I don't think consumer prices are reasonable. Min. wage should be done away with.

Yeah, I had my own business. Didn't look to make a ton of money off the sweat of somebody else so I actually did all the work myself.

So you're saying you didn't know what it took to run a business or you'd still have one.

Making money is integral to keeping a business open. That is why they operate. Making money is not inherently evil. Having other people work for you and making money from their labor isn't, either. Just because someone is successful at it doesn't mean they need the gov't to come in and tell them what they must pay people.

Show me in the Constitution where the gov't has this authority and the argument is ended. You're arguing in favor of minimum wage, so defend the actual policy and not the reason why bleeding hearts FEEL its a good idea.

Judas priest I'm saying the government SHOULD stay the [bleep] out of it and quit giving my tax dollars to the working poor ! But if they do I'll bet you'd find ONE HELLUVA LOT FEWER folks willing to take 7.25 an hour cuz they'd actually have to make ends meet on that AND COULD NOT SO THEY WOULD NO LONGER WORK FOR THAT PIDDLY ASS AMOUNT.

FWIW, I'm not a dummy and I know what's involved in owning and and operating a small business ... and a complex one at that. I was part owner, CEO and Chief Inspector of an FAA approved Aircraft Propeller Repair Station ... in ... California.

Also, I haven't made any arguements in favor of raising the minimum wage. With the one exception of lowering it for "summer" type jobs for "kids".

Uhhh,NO, I don't believe I ever said any of that Mr. know it all. I don't have the business anymore because I had an accident and couldn't do that sort of work anymore.

I want a maximum wage cap to get those greedy CEOs and Lawyers in check. Pro athletes too. And their team owners, seems there should be a cap on what profit they can turn. Can you smell the sarcasm here?

It's amazing what you'll do when you have no choice.

That goes for sellers of goods/services as well as buyers.

As a seller of labor, if you can starve or work for less than what you think you're worth you work.

If you're looking to buy labor but can't because you're offering too little, you decide whether it is worth the going rate. If it is, you hire. If it isn't, you work for yourself until you can't anymore and go out of business or just never grow.

On the same token, if you're a housing owner and have the choice between a vacant room or renting at less than what you think its worth, you rent.

The economy plays matchmaker and all of those parties get together and VIOLA! Financial transactions.

That is how it works, absent gov't meddling, which screws the whole thing up.

How is it that there are all kinds of migrant workers who travel so far to earn the crappy wages you say no one can live on? If what you say is true, that would not be the case.

You're so full of schit I can smell you from here. It's obvious this is all theory to you and you haven't the first [bleep]' clue what's really going on out there. I've seen how those migrant workers live with my own eyes and it ain'tr pretty. If you advocate that lifestyle for US citizens you are scum with a capital "s".

Either way the end is the same.

If you'd have been willing or able to learn to manage people there'd still be a business cuz it wouldn't have relied upon you.

I'm sure there are a couple of guys somewhere who are really disappointed not to be able to work for you right now.

Yeah, that was sarcasm...

You didn't answer the question. If that lifestyle is so crappy, why do people travel so far to participate?

Oh well, you're right.

Gov't price controls and taking our money with nothing to show for it must be the only answer.

I concede.

You're not meant to stay in a job like that. It's just to develop a track record, prove you have a good work ethic, gain experience, etc. Then you get promoted or look for a better job more in line with someone who's already proven those things and gained experience.

Yeah I've seen it too. I provide financing to several farmers in my area. I also assist their employees in cashing checks and maintaining financial services.

See that is what happens. A farmer wants his crop picked and offers a wage. People decide they'd like to pick crops at that wage so badly that they'll cross state and national lines to get here. Then the community hires a spanish speaking teller or three to cash those peoples' checks.

You're right. They're all getting screwed.

Where is the evil corp I can blame for this massive injustice?

Bottom line. You seem to think removing government regulation from the work place will allow employers to pay less than the current minimum wage. I'm saying remove it but remove it ALL, including government "handouts" of taxpayer money and the cost of labor WILL GO UP.

Take on another roommate. This is what immigrants do. Hell, five or six of them will live in the back room of a grocery store that they own and operate, just so they can put money away. Keep in mind that said situations are not supposed to be life long prospects. You improve your situation as you gain experience, track record, and as opportunities arise.

The cost of overpaid employees gets passed on to the consumer. I guess I see your point if you prefer it to get passed onto the consumer, because everyone is a consumer but only half the people pay taxes. I don't think either should have to absorb it. The reality is that the government is about to run out of money to subsidize able bodied people as well as pay retirement and health care costs for the elderly. So, sooner or later, value judgments will have to be made about who survives and the quality of life.

We have some of those vegetable farms here. The Meskins are paid a couple bucks under minimum wage and live in chicken coops. I don't want to live that way and wouldn't expect any of my fellow Americans to do so either.

I think that I get it now. All the folks that work in the tall buildings should make all the money. All the blue collars that produce or are in service trades should either be slaves or work for room and board or have to shop at the company stores. Boss man can decide a fair wage. Bring in the Irish, Chinese, and Mexicans.

God bless Colorado. Just load up the state miliatia on flat cars with machine guns and shoot into those families. Them was the good old days.

That seems to be the attitude of most here doesn't it ?

So the pro sports team owners and players have more money in their pockets by paying the peanut/popcorn and beer vendors less. Oh yeah the many statiums are built at taxpayer expense also.

Thanks for the advice but ...........

I have a very nice house with a view of the Rockies and I manage pay the mortgage without needing roomates. I've already been through the improvement, experience, track record phase.

You guys keep getting stuck in the idea that these situation must be permanent. Why is that?

Also, for five years I supervised a staff of Ukrainian immigrant workers on work visas. The area was full of these folks at this time (shortly after the fall of the Soviet Union). The way they got housing was to get a bunch of them together and rent an apartment in the worst part of town. They'd all buy one beater car (all of them knew how to keep a car running on a wire hanger and a piece of chewing gum), and they'd shuttle everybody to their low skill jobs and back home again. They weren't living pay check to pay check. They were socking away lots of money this way, paying all their bills on their own, no help.

I assumed you understood I was speaking hypothetically, not about you personally. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

very few adult workers earn the minimum wage. less than 5% of total work force is minimum wage, and even fewer adults.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2009.htm


the artificially high minimum wage....in excess of the economic value of many of the jobs that pay it....is one reason for high unemployment, particularly among teenagers.

it was never intended to be a "living wage"....whatever that socialist bullschit is supposed to mean. people are supposed to get paid what they're worth, not what they "need."

You can't hire an employee for mimimum wage worth keeping. If you think so hire them. I'm surprised your business is still in business.

Sorry. I made the the mistake of using the term "living wage" along with minimum wage. They're two seperate terms which have no relationship and shouldn't have either.

i am a capitolist at heart but come on guys whites living like bosnians and mexi's 10 to an apartment. that sucks ! howabout we get all the fat azzes milking unemployment dry to live in shelters till they find a job ! and mikey-d's is a fine place to start

Minimum wage is like marijuana, it takes away the pain of mediocrity.

As I've mentioned in other threads, if your tallents are no better than someone who is a non citizen, doesn't speak english and has no job skills, why should you be paid a living wage???

Chitty low paying work is a powerful motivator to gain skills and get a good job. The thinking that providing a living wage to someone that has no job skills is a benefit to our society is grossly flawed thinking.

Instead of having the government force employers to artificially inflate wages for those jobs, the workers should be getting a second job, taking odd jobs on the side, or starting a small business.

If somebody wants to be successful, all they have to do is bust azz and go get it. If they think their no skill job should include funds for a car, tv, beer and cigarettes, I for one am sick and tired of subsidizing their laziness.

"The thinking that providing a living wage to someone that has no job skills is a benefit to our society is grossly flawed thinking."

No disagreements with that.

Another load of bullschitt from somebody with their head up their A$$. I bet you haven't the foggiest clue what some of these low paying jobs are or just what they entail. Oh you do ? Then let's hear it ! I know a bunch of folks that have these 7-9.00 jobs and some of them require alot more work and brain power than many would believe. In fact I've seen a helluva lot of college grads that weeren't worth a schitt at them. The thing is you sorry SOB'S NEED these jobs done, wouldn't lower yourselves to doing them but at the same time look down your noses at those who do and begrudge them a liveable wage for doing them. The worst of it is, the trend is for these service ondustry jobs to become a bigger and bigger part of our economy in the future. If you don't personally know someone who is stuck in one now, you will in the future and heaven forbid it end up being you or someone you love. Your attitude will change then as reality jumps up and b*tch slaps you upside the head.

Mimimum wage is the governments way of telling you that people would pay you less if they legally could. Maybe that should be a hint if you're out of high school.

Let me tell you tho if a young couple can each work a 40 hour week at minimum wage and not start producing 8 rug rats 3 months after they are married - they can get by. That's $30k+ a year for two people with minimal skills. Planning to stay there the rest of your life or start having babies right off is a bad plan tho.

What a couple with minimal education and skill can afford...doesn't matter how nice it is.

If they're willing to work and have so much brain, why are they working minimum wage jobs? Look at the link....of all the adults in this country, something like 3% earn minimum wage.

Obviously, nobody but you considers them so smart and hard working. Good workers get paid more because they make money for their employers.

Most likely crappy work habits, substance abuse issues, etc. Minimum wage is for entry level workers, not supposed to be a lifetime career to raise a family on.

And what great skill do you provide to society that makes your work worth a good wage to me ? Whatever it is, chances are good I can live without it/you and probably could forever. On the other hand, I do find a need to eat pretty much every day, yet the folks who are responsible for putting food on the grocery store shelves likely make far less than you.

I doubt you employ anyone, in the first place.

And you just emphasize the point....why should you be required by the government to pay anybody more than you think they're worth to you.

I employ a lot of those people who make minimum wage.....I can say for the great majority of them - there's a reason you are making minimum wage. That reason is because if I fired you I could find and train someone else to do that job in a minimum amount of time. That's the basis of why someone gets paid what they do. If I were to fire someone and it would take 6 months to find and train a replacement chances are you will not be making minimum wage. If I fire the guy that sweeps up in the afternoon who makes minimum wage I could have another guy who sweeps up just as good before business close the same day.

I build chemical plants, refineries, steel buildings, bridges, schools, hospitals etc...so as soon you can drive with no bridge, go a lifetime without gasoline or any chemials produced in the US you can do without the services I render. Do others do it to? Sure. But I do it fast enough, good enough and cheap enough to stay in business which is the basis of our economic system in the US.

If you meant that for me - sorry. I left that business over 20 years ago. The last person I hired was an unskilled laborer to help me paint my house. I paid him $10.00 an hour cash which I thought was fair.


-----------------------------------------


OOPS! I made a mistake in my math in a previous post. Avereage full time hours @ 40 hours per week is 173 hours - NOT 133.

My figures were off due to old age.

You can here if all you want is minimal skilled labor. Like the guy who comes in and sweeps up the shop is paid minimum wage. The guy who comes once a week and washes the shop truck is paid minimum wage. All jobs that realistically if they quit I could someone else to do for the same price in a matter of hours if I looked.

Well, you ain't worth a [bleep]' thing to me so you can go [bleep] yerself. The ONLY use I ever had for a lawyer in my whole life was when I bought my house and that's a business you scumbags created for yourselves.

Hey man if you didn't do it somebody else would. You ain't nuthin' special despite what you'd like to think. I've built houses, industrial smoke stacks, cable TV systems and custom rifles among other things in my time and I don't figure I'm better than anyone else.

I suspect you're leaving out a few public defenders.

And I suspect you're a child molester but I digress and refuse to be brought down to your level.

Will a minimum wage always be too high? Are the 3% of adults earning that minimum over paid? What happens if its eliminated? Do they start speaking chinese? Could there be some real [bleep] entrepeneurs that paid low enough that ya end up with a bunch of chinese unions?

for such a toilet mouth, that's a hoot, that is.

Damn I wish Bristoe was here.

Aww, does yer puzzy hurt ?

the prosecution rests

Fishhead, why do you want to hold so many people down to such a low standard of living? Why do you oppose my idea of raising the minimum wage to $50.00 per hour? I would like an explanation.

Bet you never told that to no judge. I bet I bet.

heck, make it a hundred.....make everybody rich.

There's the difference - I'm better than lots of people.

Nobodies saying anybody is better than anybody else. Some folks did figure out early on that they'd be better compensated if they gained certain skill sets, as well as were willing to go where those jobs are located. Other folks might not have any advanced skill sets, but they still figured out if they worked hard, and made their employer a profit, there'd be money in it for them as well.

I'm thinking if those that are unhappy with their lot in life put their anger, resentment and jealousy into gaining some skills and relocating to where the better paying jobs were located, they'd be better off.

I've seen way to many people from foreign countries that have none of the advantages of people that were born here, yet managed to make a success of themselves. Amazing what someone who is intelligent and hard working can achieve. Those that look for excuses vs. opportunities, well, not so much.

Now you're being ridiculous.

That's the real problem today . Too many honestly believe that. Those folksa could use a bit of humility. But for the grace of god and all that.

Ya'll know Steve_No believes he can work an elephant for a monkey's worth of peanuts.

Problem is there are alot of people making next to nothing, or making nothing living off the guvment teet, that think they are better than that, but they aren't, and hence the resentment.

I'd be pretty damned ashamed of myself if after 20+ years working I could be replaced by a teenage kid, or a kid fresh out of college. Trouble is alot of folks have no shame, nor no clue that if they aren't making their company a proffit, they aren't much use to the company.

You have NO [bleep] CLUE how many of those folks are out there today. If they all relocated there still wouldn't be enough good paying jobs to go around. I know two personally who worked for a government contract aerospace company making over 50k annually just a few years ago. Today, one of them works behind the gun counter at Dick's sporting goods and the other is a janitor at the local high school. Both have college degree's and neither makes 20k annually now.

But for the grace of God, I've been there, and I fought my way back. Nobody gave me anything along the way, including the government.

A minimum wage of $7.25 means ten employees costs the employer $580 per day with no allowances for talent or productivity. I'm better than the other nine, so I want a bigger cut.

So you'd like to think. Such is not ther case more often than not.

Depending on the locality and its cost of living, a minimum wage may need to be higher than in other areas. For example, in the DC (or NY) metropolitan area, it takes a minimum annual income of about $28,000 for a single person to live (you want a family?, add more). This translates to about $14 per hour, which is why some families live in tents in the woods near highways. Many of the homeless are decent folks who have jobs; they just do not pay enough to live indoors.

Keep in mind, those migrant workers send many millions of dollars back to Mexico and other places- which is one reason they look so broke and destitute. They are living on half of what they earn, unlike many Americans who are living on twice what they earn.
And the MAJORITY of minimum wage workers ARE students employed by universities, and that does NOT ignore the fact that in this lousy economy there are probably more adults working for minimum wage than ususal, and I am NOT an example of any fundamental misunderstanding.
(I have no need to insult anyone with creatively mispelled expletives, either).
Bottom line, if you can't afford to live on the wage you can get, you have to add skills, change your living situation, or in many cases, simply show up for 3 or 4 weeks in a row and you'll get a raise.
But like Ron White says, "you can't fix stupid", so some people are always going to be struggling, and that's a tragedy that will always be with us. There would be fewer, though, if the governement would quit incentivising poverty.

Actually, that is the case.

Waitressing is a classic example of a minimum wage job. There are always standouts that you know are on their way to something better, and always those you know will be there five years from now. I'd be hard pressed to name a minimum wage job where that isn't the case.

Actually, most folks I meet these days who are college educated and have good paying jobs, I just stand back in wonder cuz it's obvious within two minutes that they're dumb as a bag full of hammers.

yeah, shame they're not smart like all your buddies who still work at minimum wage jobs.

jeez, you are pathetic. the failure and envy just drip off of you.

Have those people been spending any time searching the internet for jobs across the country, or internationally?

I've moved across country, and started work in a field I had no experience in, though my engineering degree got my foot in the door. It's turned out to be a lucrative field. I also spent the last two years at my previous employer stressed as I watched our work load continually dwindle, but while that was happening I was keeping my eyes out for job opportunities. I landed another job before my previous employer had to let me go, much easier to find a job while you're employed, and I definately wouldn't be making nearly what I make now if I'd been unemployed when I was offered the job.

But then again I'll do what it takes to keep gainfully employed, if I have to work 1/2 way around the world and am gone 1/2 the year, I'd do it, if I had to relocate to Texas (perish the thought) I'd do it.

We're in a competitive fast moving world, one needs to be up on what jobs are in demand, and be ahead of the 8 ball when they see their industry starting to falter. I worked in Silicon valley for 4 years, two much boom/bust in the high tech industry, and the wages that seemed high weren't nearly high enough given the cost of living and taxes in the Bay Area. Moved to Alaska 14 years ago, took two jobs and two years to get my salary back to what it was, but pretty much doubled my standard of living.

My friends wife was born in the Caribean, and he said they grew up basically in shacks. In less than 10 years she's become a millionaire running assisted living homes. She has no advanced degree, no silver spoon, but through hard work, good business skills and savvy she has become very wealthy. Can everybody do it? No, but to those that seek it out, the opportunities are there.

took me alot less to see that about you

Yeah well [bleep] you very much you worthless POS. The fact is, I'm in charge of a whole crew of men and it's almost impossible to get people with an IQ higher than a brook trout no matter where you look or how much you pay these days. The main problem being that most of the guys I'm trying to make into dedicated, competent workers are the progeny of worthless a$$wholes like you.

lol,..the fat cats who hold the purse strings are scooping hundreds of billions of dollars of the people's wealth and passing it around to their butt buddies,..and the people fight over who gets to keep the pennies.

Despite the spewing in your post, under the situation you describe how can you defend a government-mandated wage for such useless people?

If you're not snivelling because of the taxes you have to pay as a result of being in the top 1% of wage earners in the country, you're begruding other people the ability to make enough money to live a decent life on.

bad form,...very bad form.

not very consistent with your libertarian principles, B.

you really want the government telling you what you have to pay people? can they also make you hire them? keep you from firing them?

Ability? If that word was part of the equation minimum wage would be irrelevant.

which one is you?

Well Bristoe, we're on the same page but that's probably a bad thing here considering the company.

Worthless elitist scum.

what if they decide it's really not fair for really good tool makers to make so much more than unskilled workers with poor work habits and decide we need a maximum wage, with the savings spread down to those who aren't making enough now?

how would that be, Comrade B?

Schitt, toolmakers ain't worth nuthin', just ask a lawyer.

calm down, Blackheart. I'm sure Obama is working on raising the minimum wage, and then you'll get a raise.

If the economy hadn't been gutted by the globalists, the "ability" factor would be a relevant consideration. But with the *real* unemployment rate hovering very close to great depression numbers, a persons ability often has fuggall to do with his or her earning capacity.

Just give me a choice between bammy and Romney and I'll vote for Bammy ya dumb bastard.

They decided that a long time ago.

Shortly after China was presented with the American manufacturing base.

Exactly right !

yeah, you sounded pretty much like a commie from the gitgo. thanks for confirming. how's that hope and change been working out for you?

My libertarian principals dictate that people get payed according to their contribution to a society.

Lawyers would be riding mopeds in a libertarian world,...Chinese mopeds.

nobody has to hire me.....I get paid exactly what the people who do are willing to pay.

And as a result you support government control over wages. So you hold your libertarian views until someone gets an ouchie?

Bwaaahahaa, now that right there is funny and ohhhh so true !

I support government packing up and going away.

If they did, this entire discussion would be moot.

And yet you have no idea how the basic economy os the US works. If someone can do it and would do it - they would be doing it. But they can't or won't. I guess people are just too stupid to see all the money left on the table.

Please tell me where I said I was better than anyone else. You're the moron that said you could do without the services I provide. Again I doubt it. If I went out of business would someone else do it? Sure they would, at an increased cost, increased time (which is increased cost) etc...if they could do it cheaper/faster they would put me out of business already.

I simply stated I employee minimum wage workers, along with a lot who don't make minimum wage. If you are stuck long term in a minimum wage job there's a reason. That's life telling you that you made a bad life decision along the way somewhere and either shut up and live it or get up off your ass and fix it.


I love how people who manage to work and make a good living, or own a business, or go to school so they don't have to work minimum wage jobs or morons and the people who got stuck in a long term minimum wage job are the smartest and hardworking people you will ever meet.

How's the conservative party been working out for you ? Not so good for me as they've had 230 odd years of shared FAILURE with the Dem's.

Meds, you should take them. Doesn't matter who is in office in a lot of ways. Those at the bottom are going to be at the bottom no matter who the president is and what letter he has behind his name. I guess that makes me elitist to think that the normal everyday hard working American can get somewhere without governmental help - because if you look around a WHOLE HELL OF A LOT OF PEOPLE SURE HAVE FIGURED IT OUT...what's the excuse of those who haven't? I'm not talking in the last 2 years...I'm talking long term life haven't figured it out.

The basic economy is FUBAR and has been for quite some time.

I still call bullshit. Sure your income may have dropped and your style of living declined - but overall those at the bottom are there for a reason, and those not at the bottom (and not necessarily those at the top) are there for a reason and it has little to do with "globalization".

Long term people need to adapt, change, and overcome. If you can't do that you'll fall to the bottom. That's the way it works, how it always has worked and will always worked.

Now you can say long term globilzation has shipped a lot of jobs overseas. But we started talking in this thread about minimum wage. If you were making minimum wage 25 years ago and haven't done anything to improve yourself it doesn't matter if no jobs went to China you would still be making minimum wage.

That's better. Your paraphrasing Karl Marx was starting to scare me.

That's a nice little speech, but government is by *far* the largest expense any working person has.

At the risk of being redundant, the government has amassed a 14 fuggin' trillion dollar debt,..and if you don't think the people are going to foot the bill for it, you're kidding yourself.

It's not that people are sinking to the bottom.

The government is raising the bottom up to swallow them.

people who make the minimum wage don't pay income tax, they get EITC.

Well,..them no good fer nuthin' sumbitches!

Who do they think they are?,..members of the fuggin' Federal Reserve?!!

Oh my God, do you elitist MF's really want me to tell you how things really work in this [bleep] up country ? Truth be told, It WILL be embarassing if you dumb [bleep]'s don't STFU ! I'LL GIVE YA A CLUE IN THAT IT REALLY IS WHO YA KNOW AND WHO YA BLOW not how "qualified" or smart or "educated" you are. I work with local government here and know JUST EXACTLY OF WHAT I speak !

Meds, take them. You've got a lot of hate botted up there. I'd hate to see you go postal on someone because a high school dropout who can't read and write is making minimum wage.

Well, that figures.

If the American people were truly against Marxism, they would demand an end to both of the dominant political parties in America.

Both the Dems and the GOP have been scooping up enormous quantities of the people's wealth and redistributing it as they see fit for many decades.

Minimum wage in RI is $7.40 an hour. A 40 hour week makes you $296 and Uncle Sam's going to take a third of that. I don't know anyone here that can live on $200 a week. $800 a month won't pay my property taxes! Help anyone paying rent, health insurance, and food. I'll push my lawn mower the rest of my life.

oh, so blackheart is a local government union worker and an Obama supporter.....full of hate and venom at anyone who succeeds.


it all kind of falls together. SEIU member?

Yeah, that's why I've been forced to "make do" with the lazy, retarded, grandsons of the town board on my work crews. Get a clue you DUMB BASTARD !

Can I keep going till you stroke out...I think you are close.

Sounds like you have more issues than who is in the white house and what federal minimum wage is.

I really do get tired of having to "make do" with the progeny of such dumb [bleep]'s as you. No telling what could really be accomplished with those who were truly best qualified but that will never be known because of the status quo.

Must be getting close to going over the edge, you are starting to mispell words like "cvould" and "knownm". If i were you (and thank god I'm not) I'd turn off the computer, walk outside and get some fresh air and excercise...assuming you don't live in the typical liberal haven where you are likely to be shot outside after dark.

Try to make a joke of it you [bleep]' asswhole. What I've said is the absolute truth, no matter how sad it truly is.

You know if you have prolbems with everyone you are related to, everyone you work with, and the people who are in power - maybe it's not them that has such a big problem. Just saying.

I'm not a fan of the government and the people elected, but you can't get to the point of stroking out over it.

Grow the [bleep] up and open your eyes. You ain't dealin' with a greenhorn here dumbass.

no, I'd say he's dealing with a sociopath.

I'm tired of employers paying less than a living wage and the taxpayer having to offset that wage shortfall with welfare entitlements.

so you want private employers to pay welfare instead? yeah, that makes sense.

WTF??????? uncle same take 1/3 of minimum wage???????????????????????

I've yet to pay 1/3 of my gross income in federal income taxes, and my income for the past several years has fallen somewhere between 5 and 10% of top wage earners. When I was in the top 25% I was paying less than 10% of gross.

Heck, my teenage kids can make $20/hr cash tutoring other students or teaching violin lessons. As I tell them, why work for minimum wage when you have skills others don't.

I guess it's good that there are so many people that say you can't make it, or aren't willing to try, as it makes for much less competition for those that have figured out it really isn't that hard.

Exactly and you're absolutely correct !

You probably nailed it. That reminds me of one of my favorite demotivational posters.

Dysfunction

Better them than our taxes. Ya bitch about your tax burden and blame government...take that blame all the way to the top fat cats that make the system work that way for them at the taxpayer expense.

You've got it nailed man !

In one breath you rant about the low quality workers forced on you, and in the next you rant on how they deserve forced wages.

I suppose that looks like a contradiction but damn, 7.25 an hour ! Really ? I wouldn't [bleep] your loose, ugly daughters for that !

I'd kill you for free, but that would be redundant. A low-life government employee that has to suck off his masters already has no life.

I think everyone should work a minimum wage job ... at least once. I did it. I'm sure a lot of people did it even if only for a short period in high school or college.

Know what I learned? That having a minimum wage job sucked and I needed to figure out something else pretty quick. I guess we can throw in a government job as well. Did that for a short period of time and just couldn't set there and watch money after money get flushed down the toilet with no return on it at all.

Yep.

Take a look at this guy's posts and it becomes obvious that he can't play well with others.

By what authority would you have the gov't do this?

Sheesh. Ya'll really seem to have it stuck in your heads that when someone can't earn a "living wage" (whatever that is) that it is someone else's fault.

THAT is the core problem in our whole society. If everyone would worry more about taking care of their own business everyone would be a lot better off.

You got a problem with people who mooch and leech? That is between you and them; don't let your envy for someone else's success let you become like the leeches & mooches who point fingers but can't bear to look in mirrors.

Of course there is a solution to all of this. Cut gov't back to its Constitutional powers and eliminate individual and corporate welfare, housing subsidies and all price fixing.

I for one would love to see us do all of the above both internationally and domestically and watch our debt woes disappear.

You mean you were forced to earn less than a living wage and you're not eternally blaming The Man for your scars?

You need to introduce a few people here and a whole lotta people out there to your therapist!

WOW!

I never imagined how bad a schit storm this thread/subject would turn out to be.

Diverse and diametrically opposed opinions amongst reasonable people on yet another issue ....




Not good.

Who ya calling reasonable!

There's no denying that.

But lawyers have arranged things such in our society that they're necessary for just about everything, which is Bristoe's point, i.e., in a libertarian society, lawyers would find far less work as there would be far less red tape one would be required to navigate through on a daily basis.

I haven't heard Bristoe say that he supports the minimum wage.

Then rail against the welfare state, and support Ron Paul.

+1

"Of course there is a solution to all of this. Cut gov't back to its Constitutional powers..."

The nail has been struck squarely upon its head.

Sort of torn here.


On one hand, I believe in free markets and as little govt intervention as possible but there's little doubt if you did away with minimum wage, there would be a couple million jobs paying even less than they do now. If it were me and the only job I could get in my area was laying bricks or doing some other back breaking work and the wages were less than the minimum, I suspect desperation would make me consider some unappealing alternatives. When a person is forced to work long and hard yet are rewarded for their troubles by struggling to put a decent meal in their stomachs, you can pretty much see where the crime rate will go.


Some folks just don't have the capacity to improve their plight. Even if they're hard working. I guess some better off people just don't understand that there's many places in our country where the job markets are abysmal and many don't have the money to move or the idea of it it too overwhelming for them. You force millions in our country to fall even further in their struggle to get by, I don't see how their desperation won't end up costing us more in the form of more law enforcement and additional costs of more prisons as well as the insane cost of taking care of prisoners.



Tough question and I see no real good answer.

Hawk,



From later posts I figure Bristoe was more interested in just arguing with Steve than defending the minimum wage.

You might want to be careful with that talk. Could come back to visit! grins.

Lots of folks would have failed miserably in the early years of this country.. RE work vs monetary rewards.... hard work, REALLY hard work, and you barely had enough to eat....

If ever given the opportunity for the two of them to meet up in real life, this image comes to mind.

Safe to say that few, if any, here want to return to the capitalism of that in David Copperfield.

Indeed.

The point you seem to be missing, my friend, is that the option isn't between X number of available jobs without a minimum wage and precisely X number of jobs available with minimum wage. Government price supports for anything have an adverse effect on the availability of the thing in question. This is why in the old pre-MW days, when you pulled up to the gas pump, you'd be greeted by two or three workers attending to you and your car, and today it's all self-serve. Those jobs disappeared because the minimum wage made them no longer economically feasible. Those were first rung jobs on the ladder of success, and now they're gone, so the folks who would have had them started on the track to becoming government dependents instead of first time job holders on the track to becoming experienced and higher paid job holders.

He was only addressing bad form, not that Steve wasn't correct in opposing the minimum wage, i.e., he's saying that perhaps Steve isn't the right source for the message (since he supports policies that impoverish Americans, such as central economic planning by the Fed, and an American world empire) rather than that his message in this case was incorrect.

I can buy into that.

That wasn't free market capitalism, and certainly wasn't due to development in the direction of free market capitalism. England at that time was in a transitional phase from mercantilism into free market capitalism, but the reasons for mass poverty were more to do with displaced land workers forced into the cities than to anything else. Land was routinely confiscated and handed over to lords by royal decree in exchange for favors. Hardly a laissez-faire situation.

Thanks for making my point.

Awesome.

a twisted up angry failure, lashing out at the world which refuses to recognize his genius.

he can get away with insulting daughters here, whereas in the real world it would get him crippled.

Why support someone who has absolutely no chance of winning?

Steve,
I agree with most of what you said but I think you left out one word, so I hope you don't mind me adding it.

That's a message that's been programmed into you by the establishment. Unless we learn to overcome the messages the establishment tries to program into us, nothing will change. Don't be a chump.

I am coming into this late and just read the first few post and skipped to the end, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned. Some here have bought into the myth that everybody is guaranteed a certain standard of living. I believe that your standard of living should reflect your desire and ability to get a job done. More desire, more ability, more money. If you do not have the standard of living that you desire, you need to better yourself by working harder or training for a job that pays more. The government should have no say in the matter. miles

And the gov't gives grants even for this. State sponsored Vo-Tech schools are mostly FREE and are being scuttled for lack of participation.

Hard to have any sympathy except for those who have truly fallen on hard times through no fault of their own and there are many in that position now days.

There's been a lot good arguements for and against the minimum wage. It's been interesting.

My first post was in regards to current minimum wage being consisdered unreasonable. I'm not in favor of raising it, I just don't consider it to be unreasonable where it's at or think it's right to eliminate it.

One of the arguments against minimum wage is employers are forced to pay more than what a person is worth. I have a problem with that. There's a problem with two parties in that situation.

First the employer. If you can't get someone to show up to work on time and put in a fair day's work you've hired the wrong person for the job and you're not motivating them.

Second is the employee. If you can't show up to work on time and put in a fair day's work - shame on you. You don't deserve the job which brings to the final point.

Every employer has the right to hire and fire whoever they want. Forced into paying someone more than they're worth? NOPE. If you can't get $7.25 an hour worth of labor out of someone - Fire em'.

Go back to just what written in the the constitution? NO WAY. Society and the workplace has been vastly improved by legislation and the implementation of workers rights/protections. I'm not talking about unions or socialist ideology but just basic standards in regards to safety, health, working conditions and along with it a minimum wage. My father began his working career in a cotton mill when he nine years old for pennies an hour.

Those days are long gone and they should remain so forever.

You certainly have a guaranteed right to be a leftist in America, but I hope you realize that this is exactly what you are. Many leftists want to deny the charge. You should just embrace it.

PS Leftist's arguments in support of leftism are all wrongheaded. This has been demonstrated here in spades with regard to those (your) arguments vis a vis the minimum wage. No offense intended.

Considering the source I'm not too worried about your comments on my ideology.

I go in three directions. Right, middle or left depending .............

It's what you call open minded.


Did you forget about this?



I was agreeing with your thoughts in regards to climbing the ladder. I guess you're a lefty too.

well the minimum wage I aspire to work for is I guarantee you unreasonably high by anyone's standards.



it is a sad fact of reality to see some making the pittance that is minimum wage and realize they're getting paid double what their work effort is showing me at the time.


course I'm grossly overpaid for what I do, and my first job with a W-2 was $3.25 per hour circa 1977 or so. Come to think of it, i was probably overpaid then as well!

You are overlooking the thing that we as humans should have, and that is free choice. If I want some manure shoveled out of my barn and I think that I should pay $10.00, you are under no obligation to do it for that price. You can either go on down the road or offer to do it for $12.00 or whatever price that you think is fair. If I think $12.00 is too high the government should not make me pay that amount. I should be free to offer the job to someone else or do it myself. Hell, I might even leave the manure in the barn. In a very broad sense of the word, the government is making slaves out of us by taking away our free choice in the matter. That is what I am against. miles

We and our spawn were officially made slaves upon the invoking of The Great Society in the 60's. This under discusion is only a small extension of it.

The deals were made to make us slaves in 1913. Everything since then has been our gradual slave conditioning. If we hope to restore our liberty, the 1913 coup d'�tat needs overturning, and the old republic needs restoring.

Cry,,,,"FREEDUMB".

No I just threw that out there for anyone that thinks its a great idea not you per say. You can't get a kid that worth his weight in sand here to flip burgers for minimum wage. But lots of people believe cheaper is always better.

when I was doing minimum wage work it was a buck and a quarter.....and the last one I had at those wages was as an 18 year old.

The current minimum wage is wrong.
That is to say it is wrong and that a minimum wage even exists.
The concept of a federally mandated minimum wage is so absurd I'm always amazed everytime a supposedly 'educated' person tries to defend it.
Why not just make it $100/hr? Equally brilliant.

My last two years of high school, and for most of my undergrad college career, I cashiered at a grocery store. It wasn't a bad job for a kid. If they had paid me enough to buy my own place, a nice car and comfortably support a family, I wonder what my motivation to bust my ass and get my degree in electrical engineering would have been?

Don't go talking human nature and common sense now mathman... sheesh!

Pop always said if I didn't like cashiering he could get me on the pipe yard crew down at one of the compressor stations he managed. Somehow staying up late studying Halliday & Resnick didn't seem so bad.

Go hire a mason and tell us what you had to pay. Quite a bit more than minimum wage. I'm not trying to shoot down your whole point, I'm just saying bricklayer is not an example of low cost unskilled labor.

As an aside, masons are actually one of the happiest people with their chosen profession. I remember a survey that was done a few years ago, and I think they were near or at the top on being happy in their trade.

I am surprised at the number of people that think that a job a poorly trained monkey could do, is somehow worthy of a govt mandated price...

You never know where you're going to find socialists. Many of them are convinced they're rock-ribbed conservatives, too.

The minimum wage needs to be low in order to encourage hiring of the young and unskilled. Those who need to support themselves should develop skills that allow to earn more than the minimum wage.

That's a good argument for eliminating the minimum wage completely.

Additionally, though, it's immoral. If you and I negotiate on a price for one of my rifles, who is the government to come between us and tell us the price we agreed on is too low, and that if you want to buy my rifle you have to pay a higher price than the one we freely negotiated? Wage is merely the price for a service. Who is the government to tell two people that the price for service they agree on is too low or too high? Free people are free to negotiate a price that's acceptable to both parties. If you're not free to do that, you're not really free.

Then there's the economic distortions created by the minimum wage, leading to far fewer starter jobs (the bottom rungs on the ladder to success), and the resultant higher rates of habitual dependance on government handouts, which inevitably become generational.

20-30 bucks an hour around here, non union