Florence-area man fends off wolf that attacked dog


FLORENCE � Don Burgess loves a good outdoor adventure story.

The former hunting editor of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation�s Bugle magazine never imagined one of his best would happen right in his backyard.

It�s been about a week and a half now since Burgess was awakened from a deep sleep at about 5 a.m. to the sound of an obvious struggle outside his bedroom.

Burgess lives about 100 feet from One Horse Creek, just about one mile west of the only stoplight in Florence.

�It was a pretty loud vocalization just outside the house,� he remembered. �It was a real alarming kind of sound. It was like someone was hollering with a gag in their mouth. I thought, �Gee, that dog is in trouble.� �

He jumped out of bed and reached for his flashlight but ended up grabbing a canister of pepper spray instead.

�Ordinarily, I would have grabbed my pistol, but there wasn�t time,� Burgess said. �I ran downstairs in my skivvies and put on a pair of flip-flops and ran outside.�

He was met with a strange silence.

�The noise had been going pretty strong all this time, but by the time I got out the door, it had gone quiet,� he said.

He shone his flashlight around. One of his dogs was there sniffing the ground next to the back step, but he couldn�t see the other, a heavily muscled boxer that weighs about 65 pounds.

He walked over to the creek and shone his light there.

�I didn�t see or hear anything,� he said.

So he turned upstream and walked along a little trail that went back toward the creek.

�I was starting to feel like it was too late,� he said. �I didn�t hear any sound anymore. It seemed like such a bad deal. I mean, we both love our dog.�

And then he heard something just across the creek.

It sounded like something was attempting to growl with its mouth full. In his flashlight�s beam, he spotted something on the other side of the creek.

�It was a little spooky,� Burgess said. �It gave me a bearing where the dog was, and so I waded across the creek.�

He lost a flip-flop along the way.

When he lifted his flashlight again, he spotted them five feet away up against the base of a big cottonwood tree.

�They were real close,� he said. �Way closer than I thought they would be. This thing was facing me with its head down and apparently holding my dog in its mouth. Nothing was moving. I popped the pepper spray.�

Immediately, the light-colored wolf let go of the dog and stood sideways to Burgess.

�Here I was with this light looking through an orange cloud at this scene unfolding before me,� he said. �It was like a flash photo of this wolf with its head leaning forward and its tail standing straight out.

�I had this little snapshot of him and then he was gone.�

Burgess was sure that his dog was going to be shredded to pieces.

�I�ll be darn if it didn�t crawl out of the brush and slink back across the creek without even stopping to say hi to me,� he said. �It waded back across the creek and back to the house.�

It was met by Burgess� wife, standing there on the deck with a rifle in her hands.

�The only thing she could find to grab was a pellet gun,� he said. �The dog was so traumatized that all it could do was quiver. It went under the kitchen table and stayed for a long time.�

The dog�s only injuries were two puncture wounds. One was on top of its muzzle and the other underneath one of its eyes.

Later in the week, Burgess asked a state wolf biologist about the difference between the bite on the canine teeth of a coyote and a wolf. He was told a coyote�s teeth might span up to an inch and a half. A wolf�s would measure more than 2 inches wide.

�I measured the span at 2 1/4 inches,� he said. �That sealed the deal for me that it was a wolf.�

His boxer is 65 pounds of muscle.

�He�s a buff boxer. He looks like he�s half pit bull,� Burgess said. �He definitely more than met his match that night. Psychologically, it�s taken him several days to get over it. He still goes out on the deck and sniffs and looks around. He�s not very sure of himself anymore.�

To this day, Burgess can�t be sure what it was that wolf wanted with his dog.

�I still puzzled over what that wolf was trying to do,� he said. �My dog may have attacked it and it was just defending itself. It might just have been thinking how it was going to let this thing in its mouth go.

�I�m still shaking my head about it all. It all happened so fast. All of it probably happened in a span of two or three minutes.�

It will definitely be one of those stories told and retold.

�It�s a good one to tell for a long time to come,� he said. �I can tell people to top that when they say they have a good wolf story to tell.�


Read more: http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...693-a320-7c650226895c.html#ixzz2D0vsvf00

The wolf motto: Anything to make a turd.

I think the guy's hound dog used up all his good luck on that little encounter. Best to never do again what he did.

Next time he best grab a gun.

Said he had time to grab the spray perfume but not his pistol. Doesn't make sense to me as I always have a handgun of some sort within easy reach and figure most other people do also. Maybe he will change his priorities.

If I had to pry a wuff of my dog and my ol lady brought me a pellet gun to do it.....Id beat the wuff with the thing and then put a pellet in my wifes azz!

Hot sauce and a pellet gun!?!

I 'spect his wife gave him an earful about confronting a wuff with pepper spray, in his skivies

hell at least she had some sort of gun..

What the hell can you expect from a former Rocky Mountian Wolf Foundation employee?

And a boxer in its prime is a pretty bad-ass dog. Might have been caught by surprise. I wonder why the other dog didn't jump in. Wonder what the other dog's breed was.

Everywhere except your bathroom, though, right?

Only 2 puncture marks? That was no wolf.

Vampire?

What else could pick up a Boxer and drag it that far?

A lion - but seems unlikely he'd mistake a lion for a wuff

"To this day, Burgess can�t be sure what it was that wolf wanted with his dog."

News flash buddy, he wanted to eat it.

No, he wanted to invite it to join his pack.

I'm sure glad we got straightened out on that. Nothing like having a REAL expert around.

Now if only D Pole would way in....

OK, allowing that the wolf likely coulda made mincemeat of that dog in non time had it been serious.

Could it have been a female wolf in heat? Or simply a pack outcast seeking canine company?

he didn't have time to grab his pistol. his wife could only find a pellet gun.

they were wide open for a wolf attack.

The omniscient one has spoken, again.

He probably will under some other user name like Rene.

The other dog's breed was chicken. A boxer is no match for a wolf not under any circumstances. The wolf dragged the dog off before it was dead because in all probability it was in no mood to share it's meal.

Dave

Another way of looking at......the boxer was a dumb-ass......the other dog had more sense than to go canine to canine with a wolf.

If a good Boxer in its prime were to get a good grip right off the bat, he'd likely get the wolf to let go and look for an easier meal. This one probably wasn't able to get a grip before the wolf had the advantage. Wolves don't generally keep fighting any gripping animal they're trying to make a meal of, whether it be badger or Boxer. This is because if a wolf were to do that on a regular basis, even though his larger size might assure ultimate victory, he'd likely become lame from such injuries, become unable to hunt, and eventually starve to death as a result, thus not passing the genetic tendency to the next generation.

Where, pray tell, did you come up with this priceless bit of information?


Actually, I would rather bet on the wolf being a young mountain lion as that boxer would not have lasted as long as it takes to tell about it. And woolf doesn't go to the trouble of dragging his lunch off to a secluded spot before enjoying it. Plus the fact that these cowards don't hunt alone.

That very well could possibly be a mt lion attack. A wolf attack would have probably been a lot messier.

Them male woofs in the pack would take care of a female in heat with speed that would astound even Travis.

Pack outcasts are about 99.99% grouchy old males that just got their rear kicked by some young upstart and really are not out looking for a friend. And woofs usually go for the throat whereas big cats either attach themselves to the back of their lunches head or the muzzle. The original choke hold, if you will.

Where the hell do you get this nonsense? Wolves are in the business of killing dogs and other wolves. Boxers are pets. Wolves kill animals as big as moose just for dinner, not for territory or some other reason that would motivate them a lot more. I live with wolves and they have zero hesitation killing a dog. For the last 4 years I have been very circumspect about checking the area I hunt birds in for indications wolves are present before I put my dog down to hunt. Wolves will risk a confrontation with humans to kill a dog. They will turn on pack of hounds when they feel like it.

There are no dogs that are wolf proof or capable of dealing with a wolf intent on killing it. If there were, people in wolf country would be using them instead of losing stock to wolves. They might work deterring wolves in Florida, but they just turn into wolf [bleep] up here.

I disagree, russian ovcharkas have been doing it for 100's of years. Lots of cattle farmers are using them in sconni now, i know more than one wolf has been killed by a team of ovcharkas.

The tale in the OP is bullcrap. A 65-lb boxer tangles with a wolf near the house, the fight carries across a creek where the boxer is subdued and held in the wolf's jaws, yet the boxer is fine except for a two puncture holes.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said, but the cognoscenti here claim superior knowledge. Another example of people who are only experts on 24hr.

Come on acooper....you gotta' let these tales of wolves take on dark age mentality....

They're invincible, blood thirsty and they'll rape your women....

Well we all know your an expert in that little room where they keep the TP. You tell on yourself with every post.

You are such an incoherent little man 17ackl. That juvenile avatar and your stupid blather won't be missed.

You are the epitome of a loser.

Congrats?

PS...Have you noticed how virtually everyone ignores you?

You're breaking my phacking heart.

He does actually. It's 100_dollar_bill or something like that.

[quote]Them male woofs in the pack would take care of a female in heat with speed that would astound even Travis.[/b]

Which brings up thhe question of how inbreeding is avoided, since often a yearling female going into heat could still be in her home pack, the alpha male her father.

I was trying to google up the story I read not too long ago of a female wolf displaying a strong interest in a domestic dog and even coming up onto the front porch of a ranch house, turns out the wolf was in heat.

Didn't find it, but I did come across this account of where a female wolf in heat narrowly escaped death after a six-mile chase by a resident pack. In this story the injured female shortly afterwards drew the care and attention of a subordinate male wolf from the attacking pack, that male leaving its home pack. See...

http://archive.audubonmagazine.org/features0803/eyeingWolves-webexclusives.html

Aint saying what you wrote is wrong, just that wolves is complex creatures.

I'd guess the guy in the original story really did see a wolf, just as described. I'd further guess the boxer FOLLOWED the wolf after it ran off in response to the guy stumbling around inside the house and/or opening the door in the dark.

Again the the woods for whatever reason, wolf confronts boxer, grips it in a non-fatal hold, maybe on purpose, or maybe it was disturbed by the homeowner before it could follow through.


YMMV,

Birdwatcher

I have known of female coyotes luring love-struck male dogs out away from a farm house so the pack can close in and kill the dog. Wolves probably would do the same. And, on the other hand, I have seen domestic dogs running with a pack of coyotes but doubt that you would ever see dogs running with wolves.

Guess animals are a lot like people; ya just don't know what to expect next.

Absolutely Bigbuck that's why it's funny to me to hear from the big talkers.....Female wolves, when they come in 'heat' are kicked out of the pack. Interbreeding and hierarchy is preserved. If they don't leave they'll be killed by Mom (or another in the pack).

Frank Glaser has some great insights and observations on this....those that (like myself) have observed wolves do also. Folks that live and breathe their keyboard and have only observed wolves behind bars or glass are not 'good' sources.

For any keyboard commando to assert that they know what happened or what the wolf was 'thinking' I say a hearty GFY....

It's funny that no matter who or what the circumstances the 'fire will always do it bigger, badder and with more gusto. I've never seen more do nothing-tough guys in my life. Many of the photos of our resident big guts, old [bleep] and short pants prove the point.

I was specific in referring only to the gripping type of dog, i.e., with an ancestry in bull baiting, boar gripping, or pit fighting. The vast majority of dogs probably wouldn't get an effective bite in on a large wolf if attacked by one.

I've personally seen Boxers in fights. They're amazingly determined to hold their grip and not give up, regardless of taking punishment. They are second only to fighting specialists in this regard. Wolves, on the other hand, obey the ordinary laws of animal behavior like any other wild animal, and will seek to avoid and/or minimize injury. Gripping dogs have been intentionally bred to disregard this instinct, and will take extreme injury while maintaining a grip. This makes them a special case among dogs. Thus, as I said, were a Boxer-sized dog in good condition, belonging to a gripping breed, able to acquire a hold, a wolf would likely rethink his choice of meals.

Could be, however, that dog-hunting wolves are extremely adept at gaining the advantage from the start, thus preventing such a dog from acquiring a grip. That's a different question, and one to which I cannot authoritatively speak.

I didn't get the sense that it was a fight. I got the sense that the wolf got the drop on the Boxer from the start and dragged it across the stream.

What part of killing other canines don't you get? Are you just that [bleep] dense? Wolves are in the business of killing ANY other canines. They do not tolerate them. Wolves kill other wolves as often as or probably more often than they kill dogs. Even a few days away from a pack can be a death sentence to a wolf that tries to return. Wolves are adept and practiced at killing other canines, large powerful canines (wolves) that are adept as well at killing. Wolves do not get to be adult wolves without becoming expert at killing. They are not vegetarians and nobody, not even the wolf lovers leaves food out for them in case they aren't so good at killing. If they aren't good at it, they die. I don't know for sure, but my guess would be the largest mortality factor for wolves is other wolves, at least up until very recently when we started killing them again.

That and just about everything else you "speak on"

You have a lot of experience with timber wolves down there in Florida, do ya?

Hay don't let the door hit you in the ass Arcesknight.

There are a lot of great guys on here but then of course there are the A-holes like you.

I think we're likely, to some degree at least, speaking past one another. I'm not speaking of packs or even pairs of wolves vs another single canine, as you seem to be. I'm strictly speaking one on one. Wolves hunt large dangerous animals in packs, or at least in pairs. Singularly, they will select only smaller game incapable of damaging them. A single wolf would chase down and kill a coyote just because they're competitors for game, but gripping specialist dogs are not coyotes. They were bred for centuries specifically to disregard pain and injury while maintaining a punishing grip. When a coyote is in the clutches of a wolf, it's only thought is escape, and thus is ineffective in the battle. Not so a gripping dog.

I recall reading of a wolf in Alaska that single handedly killed at least two adult black bears. Its strategy in both cases was to harass and chase them onto a mudflat.

An animal like this don't need no 'pack' to get the drop on a friggen boxer.

Ghost, you're right that he'd likely win by mere size advantage, assuming the Boxer didn't get hold quickly. My contention is that a wild canine will withdraw from the conflict if he's taking any degree of serious bite damage, since willingness to do otherwise would be "bred" out of them by natural selection, i.e., those that did remain in the fight despite taking damage from a bite would end up lame, unable to hunt, and starve to death, thus not passing on that tendency.

With certain breeds of dog, it's just the opposite. Human selection has concentrated in certain breeds a high degree of disregard for personal injury and a determination to hold on a bite. There's a good chance IMO that this would freak a wolf out, if a Boxer (or other gripping type breed) were able to secure a grip early on, size disparity notwithstanding.

Wonder if he ever found the lost flip-flop?

Struck a nerve huh? It should since you're one of those I refered to in my earlier post.

I think yer right Hawk, actually.

It's the same dynamic that allows a 40 pound wolverine to run wolves, and even grizzlies, off a kill.

They simply don't care if'n they get hurt and that freeks out the apex predators.

Not hardly just telling it like it is A-hole. You don't have enough manhood to piss off much of anything.

Yep, excellent example. Same principle exactly.

What is it with you? An adult male wolf, the one most likely to either kill or be killed by another wolf is often times 150 pounds. They are also the most likely wolves to be isolated single wolves. They re looking for territory and will kill what they want to, especially if they are not just passing through. hey do not need other wolves to take down much, much larger prey. There are no instances of anybody's bad ass dog dragging home dead wolves in Minnesota where we have had wolves forever. It does not happen. If it did happen, there would be one hell of a market for those dogs. There are in fact no instances of anybody's bad ass dog going out and hauling down moose that I ever even heard of, which wolves do with great regularity.

Wolves have been this way since long before there were dogs. Wolves are wolves. Dogs are not. There is no dog with any business confronting a wolf. If you think there is, bring it to me and we can turn it out at night where I hunt deer and see how long it lasts.

150 lbs is pushing it. The largest scaled are 141 and 143 in Yellowstone.

Dogs do not kill wolves. Minimally 153 dogs have been killed by wolves in WY/MT/ID region to date. Most were herding dogs or hounds running lions or whatever.

No boxer would escape a wolf, even a single wolf, with just two puncture wounds.

Once again, it appears we're talking past one another. I haven't proposed that a single dog can kill and drag home a single healthy wolf of significantly superior size from the wild. Nothing of the sort. I simply proposed that solitary wolves would not ordinarily persist in an effort to take down a dog of the variety that I've specified if said dog had a solid grip on it. More likely, such a wolf would seek to disengage and withdraw. Wolves seek to avoid serious wounds by instinct, whereas dogs of the variety I'm referring to disregard such and maintain their grip with persistence.

E.g., do you suppose a lone wolf of any size would attempt to take down a healthy three hundred pound wild boar? Dogs of the gripping breeds will, and they'll nearly die before letting one go once they've got a hold.

I believe the largest wolf ever shot was 175 pounds, in Alaska. There are rumors of a 200 pounder coming out of MN this fall. We'll see in the coming weeks. Prolly exaggeration with a bit of photoshop involved.

There is a lot of photoshopping and just plain lying going around on every topic.

Agree. Alot of those western wolves look pretty huge though. They aint all photoshopped.

I'm just taking the numbers from Carter Niemeyer. He handled over 300 of them in MT/WY/ID. He has "street cred" or whatever that translates to in the field.

I heard they got up to 400 pounds and have even developed venom.

Generic mutations its called.

No [bleep], I heard it from my uncles buddy. Word is PA game commission is behind it. They bred 'em in their labradorys to kill deer and its all paid for by the insurance compoanys.

All good though, me and the boyz is fixin to turn a couple hunnert pit bulls loose on 'em. I heard they were "gripping dogs". Its gonna be badazz!!!

I'll try an take some pictures.

You take a full grown wild canine that has been fighting & killing to survive it's whole life & it isn't gonna be much of a contest between a wild animal & a domestic dog...I don't care how BADASS you THINK he is...

Agree.....

Wolves actually don't do much if any real fighting. They try to have the odds stacked substantially in their favor when they pursue game, and amongst themselves their fights don't amount to much, since the pecking order is held fairly stable. Winners and losers in their fights are determined quickly, and mostly after a lot of harmless threat display and posturing, rather than real gripping.

Think about it. Were it otherwise, wolves in the wild (both fight winners and fight losers) would be constantly dealing with bite wounds, and bite wounds in the wild tend to become infected and kill those that have them. This would tend to prevent the determined-fighting characteristic that you believe they possess from passing on to the next generation.

When wolf meets dog, the Las Vegas odds makers immediately put up a line, 10,000:1 for the wolf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAoszVLRP6U

You don't get outside much do you trh....

I've seen that before. Coyotes aren't boar dogs, bull dogs, or pit dogs, and that wasn't a one on one confrontation.

And when he does, he ain't on a learnin' safari.

coyote vs your dog....coyote wins

Wouldn't have made any difference. A coyote is just not anywhere a match for a wolf. There may be two or three breeds of big mean dogs that might whip a wolf but they wouldn't be left in any kind of condition to ever fight again.

That ain't Disney World out where they live. They have to kill something every few days just to stay alive so either they get good at it very early in life or they die. Dogs don't live their life like that. Rare is the dog that ever kills anything at all, maybe a rabbit, squirrel, or somebody's house cat on rare occasion but the wild ones kill or die. Somehow, you gotta try hard to understand that. Your viscous pit dog wouldn't last three seconds with a coyote; less with a wolf.

Yup.

Guess what you idiot... wild wolves are some pretty tore up scarred up critters. Wolves not part of a pack are subject to killing for simple trespass if they re caught. Packs will not infrequently go after each other. Jeezuz you live in a freaking fairy tale world. I have seen a few caged wolves that weren't scarred up, but most of them get tore up regular. I can't tell you how many wolves I've seen getting patched up on a surgery table. It wasn't the local neighborhood dogs that did it either.

Can a baboon whip a wolf ?

I'll bet you that baboons are pretty careful of tangling with African wild dogs.

These vids are more relevant to our discussion than that one.

That might be a draw.

Notice the dogs wear protective vests...how about without?

and then how about one on one?

trh you are out of your element. NO dog has a chance against a wolf........

This whole debate was fully resolved already by the movie White Fang.

All it takes is a little 55 Gr bullet.

X2
Gotta love the Wuff threads though. They always bring out the "experts".
Funny thing is, those that talk the loudest seldom live amoungst em. Or out side the city limits, for that matter.
As for the OP, if it happened at all, just like 90% of Wuff tales, it was more than likely a Coyote.
1) A full grown Wuff can kill a 80# Plott/Grade/B&T/whatever Bear Hound that's tougher than all the Boxerdoodles you or any one else can find in about 10 seconds. Period. (Not speculation,,, I've seen the results.)
2) Measuring a couple of puncture wounds that may or may not have resulted from the same bite, and then taking the word of a college boy that wasn't there, didn't see the wound, and in all likelyhood, has never seen a Wuff isn't much in the way of proof.
Heck, the author even admitted that he wasn't sure it was actually a Wuff untill said college boy told him so.
Trust me, when you see a Wuff, you know dam well what it is.

Eighty pound, game bred, Pitbull in his prime vs a 120 pound wild wolf in his prime, my money's on the Pitbull. Not a moment's hesitation. Wolf would be screaming for momma in less than one minute.

I'll take that bet!

Baboons are some badass critters. They scare the hell outta me.

Seen a lion have one for lunch though...Kinda wrecked my perspective.

I saw a vid of a [bleep] whipping a baboon's butt once.

Me too. How much?

Make the arrangements (in accordance with all applicable laws), and I'll put a hundred on it.

It is you that is making the bet, I'm taking it. So, go ahead. Take your pit bull out and let him rip in the Lamar. What blow hard! Bad as Komrad Les$

If you don't think taking down a full grown Elk (or Deer for that matter) isn't a "fight" you might wanna try it sometime.
Also even thinking that Wuff's aren't territorial (like every K9 in existance) and don't kill any and all K9's that come in their territory really proves how full of chit you really are.
Bet you're an authority on the African Lion and the Austrailian Crock too.

A full grown male [bleep] is a scary critter.

Saw a clip one time of a Killer whale shredding a huge great white shark.

Talkin' about a badass predator.

You're talking about a pack vs an individual. Different story, and works the other way too, i.e., a single wild wolf would be dog food for one of these catch dog teams.

Wolves aren't fighters they are killers and that's exactly what one would do to a pit but I'm not in Florida so WTF do I know?

No f'n way TRH...no damn way. .02

I'll take the bet too trh. $100

Put me in for $100 on the Wuff....

ok trh you have 3 takers for $100 each..what say you? we take your pitbull where? Yellowstone? you get to catch the wolf and make sure it doesn't exceed 120 lbs

Ill drop dat phugger off in the Lamar....

Make the arrangements, my man. I got me a cool c-note says otherwise.

c-note? you better read my post..you are on the hook for 3 so far.

put up or shut up...you also have to provide a bait...er I mean a pitbull trh...and get it up here...you all talk or what? I figure all talk.........

He is just another faker like ol' KomradLes$. Big mouth but when he gets called on it all he can do is bluster and hope no one is looking.

Now this Dog might stand a chance, it has enough bulk ?

Oh, you actually expected me to make the arrangements, did you? You're funny.

No doubt.

put your money where your mouth is....let's take it up a notch..I'll go $200 on the wolf.

You through down the wager. It's on you to make it happen. And, of course, you won't can't and never could. Just another faker.

The "harmless posturing & threat display" would quickly end with a dead dog when their obvious lack of "life skills" became obvious...(easy meal)wolves & coyotes know how to kill...their lives depend on it....wannabes are left to fertilize...

ETA...Apparently the member of the RMEF thought his boxer up to the task too....

It's the dogs good fortune that the owner intervened or there would have been a dead dog...maybe...

For starters I'm not buying his bullschitt story of not being able to find his firearms...if I lived on the outskirts of town alongside a creek, you can bet your ass I'd be able to grab my 10mm before I headed out the back door....much less wade across a creek "looking" for what started the whole mess with nothing more than an aerosol spray...If the story has any truth at all to it, the guy's lucky his dog's still alive..........

It all kinda reminds me of stories I've read here on the "campfire" of drug crazed negroes trying to run people down...& people putting their 1911's in "seal-a-meals" in the shower...

TRH...an honest question...can anyone here on the fire vouch for your sanity???

Give 'em Hell professor! By the way what did it take to get you to quit posting on the Shiloh website, we would like to see that happen here...

TRH, I bet a large Coon would whip most pits.

Yes, I agree that a domesticated, whimp of a dog of any breed, i.e., The family Rhodesian Ridgeback, 'pit' or Mastiff would have its paws full. A real bad ass dog that was brought up has a hunter and protector...... OR, unfortunately a 'pit' fighter would
give any wolf hell.

You're cracking me up. You're not serious, I hope. Please tell me you're not. Otherwise I'd have to consider I'm dealing with a middle school kid.

PS It's threw not through.

You are the one that shot off his mouth. Apparently, like Shrap, you can't back it up.

Nope. Kooky talk.

I het the impression, that if someone told TRH that the sky was up he would disagree just to hear himself speak (see himself type)?

You learn quick...

What? You think that maybe single wolves are vegetarians?

At any give time there are probably between 10 and 20 percent of a population that do not belong to a pack. They still gotta eat and they still kill and eat whatever is handy without a lot of regard to what it is.

Further, when I follow wolf tracks of a hunting pack what I see is they can often be very widely spaced. A quarter mile or more is not unusual. More common is less, and I do not often see more than two in close proximity except on kills. That indicates to me that they will engage large prey as individuals. Being as lone wolves don't seem to starve to death, I have assume that they are successful taking down large prey as individuals.

They may well do better as a unit against huge prey like moose and bison, but I believe thy do all right as individuals too.

Friend of mine left his pit bull and some sort of cattle dog in my care while they were on vacation. They lived two doors down,so I just had to go feed them every day. Anyway,snow drifted up on the fence and they were able to escape. Pit bull came back 2 days later,damn near dead,throat torn wide open. Seems they tangled with some coyote's out behind the house. The pit survived,but barely.We found some reddish fur from the other dog,that was it. No signs of any wounded coyote at all.I don't know how many coyote's there were,but this was a nice big pit,in good shape and she damn near got killed.

As for wolf vs dog, I have no personal experience,only stories from some guys I've worked with. I guided with some old timers who used to make good money killing coyote's back when they were worth good money. one guy had a good system going,using 3 wolfhounds to run and kill coyote's. These guys were making up to 30 grand a winter on coyote's. Anyway,apparently it all came to an end one day when the dogs got on a wolf. It ran out on a frozen lake,turned around and waited for the dogs,and killed all 3 in no time flat.Like I said, I wasn't there to see it,so I dion't know, but I'll put my money on the animal that's used to killing on a regular basis,and knows how to do so in the quickest manner possible.

I think maybe that's the difference. Dog thinks it's in a fight, wolf is instantly in kill mode,not wasting any time. That's what struck me about the coyote attack on the pitbull,there were almost no other significant injuries on the dog,just the near-fatal one. I'm thinking the wild canine's don't waste time fighting,they just kill as quick as possible.

Ingwe I have to thank you, cross and eh for cutting me some slack and ,to say takin me under the wing, gracias

That's a very gutsy thing to say.

Yea ,well. The SKY IS UP!!!

Oh lord no.

guys ....everyone knows the dove-eye is talking out his ass...he don't know [bleep] from shinola..he has me on ignore... but i'll go $300 on the wolf...is he gonna accept or just be a putz

Apparently your pits have never rasseled a coon...

Get back to us when they have...

He has no clue what he's talking about...

I have seen it first hand......the coon didnt make it. Dog bolted, jumped in the brush and came out with a dead critter.

gitem you have more credibility than trh ever had....even though you were obnoxious at first...

Who heck isnt obnoxious at first with you guys?

Not sure how to take that? Using him as a comparison isn't really saying much.

you aren't a virgin.....

you are golden

Salty bunch of guys around here........ I would like to have the opportunity to sit around a real camp fire with a cooler of beer, sit back, keep my mouth shut and listen, too most of them.

come to antelope camp...you are hereby invited.

Nope,,,, I'm talking about a pack of Wolves killing a pack of hard core Bear dogs before my buddy could cover the 500 or so yards to the crime scene dumb ass.
Unlike you, I only speak of things I have first hand knowledge of.

FYI,,, back in the 60's when the pipeline was booming, some of the "tuff-guy's" I worked with took their Pit-Dogs with em when they took the long drive up the AlCan highway to work on it. After a few run-ins with some of the local Malimute/Wuff dogs they all came home alone.

Carry on "tuff-guy".

Thank you for the kind invite!

I guess I owe cross some apologies too.


But eh here is some back ground. I'm young, 32. Single grew up on a horse and dairy farm, went to a local college to.be close to.my mom as my dad died when I was 16 and left me to run said farm and complete highschool.

Mom died when I was 20, I graduated the police academy at 21 and have spent 10 years working for a midsized dept (approx 30 officers).


TRH as far as the gutsy words, well I'm 6'1 and 320 pounds and still bench close to 450. Ive lived through 1 car wreck and been stabbed 3 times. I can afford to be gutsy.

Well fester, I must say you're lucky..I had two bird dogs...a large english pointer & a german shorthair...both were seasoned hunters & knew how to dispatch unwanted vermin....both ended up being stitched up at the local vet due to a coon laying on it's back & ripping the schitt outta both of them... IMO, you're fulla schitt...

fieldhand he don't have a clue....couldn't even buy one....

The best dog Micheal Vic ever had would have its tit in a ringer against a wolf.
As to the baboon, if it were a grippin boon, well he just might kick some wuffass.

How about a "grippin'" pit bull with a bad case of baboon ass?????

Naw, I didn't think so either

Happened on the Yuba River.... Dont know if the dog got lucky, but he came out proud as hell. I know coons are bad ass little [bleep].... Sorry to hear bout your dogs. And, IMO, I dont give a coons ass whatcha think about me.

You've hooked up with some fine folks here, gutsy.

too bad you haven't putsy

So yer sayin yer morbidly obese. That's just super.

We're happy for ya.

Yep, but still on a treadmill and in a weightroom 4 Times a week,...morbidly obese enough to bust heads and come out on top.

Well, I really don't have a dog in this fight

But what about Jack London, White Fang ?

Mr London was clearly a dog man, and wrote stories unprecedented for his time about the realities of life in the Klondike ( To Build a Fire is one of the all-time great pieces of prose anywhere )

Case anyone forgot, here's where White Fang the fictional 3/4 wolf hybrid is pitted against a pit bull...

http://london.sonoma.edu/Writings/WhiteFang/4chapter4.html

For once Fang did not make an immediate attack. He stood still, ears pricked forward, alert and curious, surveying the strange animal that faced him. He had never seen such a dog before. Tim Keenan shoved the bulldog forward with a muttered "Go to it." The animal waddled toward the centre of the circle, short and squat and ungainly. He came to a stop and blinked across at White Fang.

There were cries from the crowd of "Go to him, Cherokee!" "Sick 'm, Cherokee!" "Eat 'm up!"

But Cherokee did not seem anxious to fight. He turned his head and blinked at the men who shouted, at the same time wagging his stump of a tail good-naturedly. He was not afraid, but merely lazy. Besides, it did not seem to him that it was intended he should fight with the dog he saw before him. He was not used to fighting with that kind of dog, and he was waiting for them to bring on the real dog.

Tim Keenan stepped in and bent over Cherokee, fondling him on both sides of the shoulders with hands that rubbed against the grain of the hair and that made slight, pushing-forward movements. These were so many suggestions. Also, their effect was irritating, for Cherokee began to growl, very softly, deep down in his throat. There was a correspondence in rhythm between the growls and the movements of the man's hands. The growl rose in the throat with the culmination of each forward-pushing movement, and ebbed down to start up afresh with the beginning of the next movement. The end of each movement was the accent of the rhythm, the movement ending abruptly and the growling rising with a jerk.

This was not without its effect on White Fang. The hair began to rise on his neck and across the shoulders. Tim Keenan gave a final shove forward and stepped back again. As the impetus that carried Cherokee forward died down, he continued to go forward of his own volition, in a swift, bow-legged run.

The question is, was London in this instance writing from experience? Surely fighting dogs were pitted against wolves on occasion in the Gold Rush.

Birdwatcher

Hell, you could live at the donut shop for all I care. I don't giva schit.

Don't go braggin about being a fat swine though.

I won't as long as you don t brag about being a nambla member

"As for the OP, if it happened at all, just like 90% of Wuff tales, it was more than likely a Coyote."

Wrong.

TRH, why post a video showing dogs trying to take down a hog????

If you think wolves and hogs are in the same class, then you are more naive than I thought.

I don't claim to be a wolf expert like some here do but I did stay in a Motel Six one night and watched a Disney flick about wolves. I bet you have watched that same one.

As for the bet, pitting your pit against a wolf, I will up the ante to five hundred.

and trh is strangely silent................

Yea,,, I figured that out about the second word out of his mouth.
Like I said earlier, the guys with zero experience where Wuffs are concerned like to talk the loudest.
Some things never change, eah?

Dogs fight. Wolves kill, in the blink of an eye. To do otherwise means injury, then they die. The slow ones already did.

Part of the Wisconsin wolf hunt regulations passed by the legislature allows for taking wolves with dogs. In a round about way, are you guys saying the Wisconsin State Legislature passed some rules that are ridiculous?

ya think?

Birdwatcher, here is the answer, I think.

"Case anyone forgot, here's where White Fang the fictional 3/4 wolf hybrid is pitted against a pit bull..."

Plus the 1/4 dog part would be the reason for being hesitant. Wild canines can't afford that luxury more than once.

All you need is a half pit bull half Alligator.

OK, now you owe me for a new keyboard.

Yep, and it was well known among those in the old dog fighting culture that wolves invariably performed pitifully in such matches. The wolf advocates, however, were always quick to offer the excuse that the wolf is a wild creature, and won't fight in a pit, only when it's out in the open in a natural setting. But put one out in the open in a natural setting, and they found that a wolf would just run away from a Pitbull.

Wolves aren't fighting specialists. If they were, they would soon go extinct, as such a specialization can only exist under the stewardship of man, and would in fact be a grave detriment to survival in the wild. Wolves cannot track and trail game as well as a Bloodhound, lacking their olfactory capacity. Wolves cannot course small game as well as a Greyhound, lacking their speed on foot. And wolves cannot fight other canines as well as a Pitbull, lacking their determination to stay in a fight regardless of damage taken. These breeds came into existence by an intentional effort on the part of man to exaggerate those abilities as they originally existed in their wolf ancestors.

Conversely, however, none of the breeds mentioned above can hold a candle to the wolf in surviving in the wild. That's because survival in the wild favors the Jack of all trades, which the wolf is.

Quick post utilized to no one in particular:

From Birdy's White Fang that was an English Bull dog from the description not a pit bull.

Redily admit I don't know jack about wolves, coyotes yes, wolves no.

Just a question wasn't/isn't there a breed of dog called Irish Wolf Hound. How did they get that name? Because it is cute or were that at one time actually used to hunt and kill wolves?

Nope. The dog in White Fang was a professional pit fighting dog, i.e., a Pitbull. Never has been any other professional pit fighting dog in the United States but the Pitbull. Fights using other breeds, or Pitbulls vs other breeds, were always considered novelty fights. Typically, when a Pitbull was pitted against a dog of another breed, the other dog was more than twice it's fighting weight to make it somewhat less of a blowout.

"Bulldog" is the name Pitbulls went by before there was a breed club for them. In the South, they are still commonly referred to as bulldogs. When the breed clubs sprang up in the US, they couldn't register their breed as bulldogs, though, because that name was already taken by the English breed of that name. English Bulldogs, however, were never used in pit fights. Their distant ancestors were used for bull baiting, but they were a very different breed then (You'd have a hard time distinguishing one from a modern day Pitbull), and that was over two hundred years ago.

I don't have a dog in this battle(joke) but reading it i have to think of a friends pet dog called, "wolf" Wolf was about 90% alaskan wolf. At maturity wolf could put both his paws on my shoulders and i am over six feet tall. As a pup he was introduced to my pup at the time a golden retriever. My goldie didn't want to get near him, realizing he was NOT a dog. Which wolf wasn't.
Now his owner could play with him and wrestle, I could, but nobody else much got near him. I have to say he was probably around 150 to 175pounds. Pretty good guy he was, but I don't think anybody ever thought of messing with him, human, or canine. He did have a instinct tho, and some times on the desert he would take off at night, disappear, and come back the next morning with blood on his coat, we always thought he had went to get dinner. The only trouble he ever really got into was getting out of the compound one day and killing about 15chickens.
He was NOT a dog, and the dogs seem to know it too.
I had another friend that had a wolf hybred brought down from alaska. It finally had to be put down. Neighborhood kids were throwing rocks at it in a back yard, and he got irritated enough one day he jumped a six foot fence and caught one.
I don't think the owners, or myself for that matter, would have ever put either of these guys into a fight with a dog. But I don't have much doubt either what the result would have been.

A friend bought a wolf pup a few years ago.

He had always been a dog kind of guy and kept various large mutts around his place but the wolf gave him trouble.

He first tried to keep him from roaming by putting a shock collar on him and burying a wire that activated it around the perimeter of the yard.

He said that it had always worked with his other dogs,..but that the wolf would go across it just to take a leak,..then come back across it as if nothing was there.

It started staying away for days at a time and when it would return there'd be goat and sheep heads in the yard.

It had to go.

These canines all seem to be speaking the same language, and have no idea they're of a different species. Because they're not. There's less genetic variation between a wolf and a Lab than there is between a Pomeranian and Great Dane.

it's called baiting

I've had hounds my entire life, I've used them on coons, bears, and cats. I've seen a single hound kill a 40lb. coon before, and I've also seen a 40lb. coon whip 4 hounds so badly that they were all afraid to grab it anymore and the coon just walked off. Depends on how much fight is in the dog and how much practise its had killing game. I was on my way to a tree one night where four hounds were treed on a coon and all of a sudden one hell of a fight broke out. I took off running and when I got there my four hounds, all full grown adults, were all backed up against each other facing out because 4 or 5 coyotes had them pinned down. Didn't get an actual count on the number of coyotes as they took off in every direction when I came running up. Everyone of those hounds had teeth marks either on their face and necks or back around their balls which is how those coyotes were trying to take them down. They were holding their own on coyotes for the 10-15 minutes it took me to get to the tree, but theres no doubt if they would of been wolves they would of all been dead by the time I got there. Every one of those hounds were probably 55-65lb. dogs with lots of practise fighting coons, bears, and cats (bobcats and mtn. lions). I also had a big tough 1/2 Black & Tan 1/2 Bluetick male that probably weighed 90lbs that damn near killed a big tough 130lb Rottweiler yard dog once before me and another guy could pry him off the Rotts neck with an axe handle. Like I said it depends on the fight in the dog and how much practise they've had killing game. When we got those dogs apart that Rott had a broken front leg and his face and neck was all chewed up. His head ended up looking like a swelled up basketball by the next day.

Somebody wanted to know about Irish Wolfhounds:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Wolfhound

If there were dogs that could fight as well as a Pitbull, their breed would be called Pitbull, and Pitbulls would be called something else. Pitbulls are Pitbulls because they represent the premier line among dogs in combat, whether against other animals or other dogs. A dog of another breed needs to be at least twice the fighting weight of a Pitbull even to make it interesting.

I wonder why I don't constantly hear advocates for their breeds insisting that their favorite breed would actually beat a greyhound on the race track. Greyhounds aren't the dogs on the race tracks because folks just think they look right running on a race track, or because of some cherished tradition. They're there because they represent the premier racing dog. Same with Pitbulls vis-a-vis combat.

For this thread, hope you know more about wolves than you do about your university prof spelling. Fixed = You "threw"--.

Good Boy!

Oh goody. Do you feel like a big, important person now? A real he-man? Whatever dude.

ya but where you going to find an alligator desperate enough for a piece of tail to breed a pitbull?

But that's impossible. Everyone knows that wolves have magical abilities when it comes to fighting with dogs. They don't even fight dogs, in fact. They just kill them outright.

which again proves you have no clue what your talking about....reread that statement and see if you can figure out why its idiotic and self contradictory....

I said this type of dog would hang with a wuff...but not a pit. A pit doesn't have the mass.

P.S A pit doesn't have a protective coat like a woof.

Mass and coat surely helps, but Pitbulls have been matched against all the breeds of dog the world over whose advocates were certain they'd finally discovered the breed that would dethrone the mighty Pitbull. Fights were arranged, even against giants (e.g., Japanese Tosas, and Neapolitan Mastiffs, to name two such matches I'm familiar with); a large, game bred, Pitbull was selected; and the outcomes were always the same. The larger dog, after an early advantage due to sheer size, always eventually runs out of steam, at which point the Pitbull (who hadn't yet begun to fight) starts tearing them a new one. It's an old story, repeated over and over and over again, the world over.

PS The way Pitbulls deal with dogs with thick coats is to grab hold of a leg, nose, or ear, and not let go. That's how my 75 lb male Pitbull instantly got the upper hand when he was attacked by a huge (200 + pounds) and hairy Pyrenean mastiff, i.e., by grabbing the upper foreleg, not letting go, and shaking the hold wildly, eventually getting the monster to let go of his hold on the back of his neck. Soon after that, the monster was on his back yelping for help, my dog still firmly attached.

They grow 'em big here in Central Idaho..I wouldn't bet on any dog against one like this.



Jayco

Looks like the one from The 300.

It was taken in the St Joe area of North central Idaho by the high school senior pictured.The warden pictured estimated it at 180 pounds in the article about it but our local no-it-alls say different..Don't matter much,he is huge and his head and jaws are not something I would want to be on the other end of.

Jayco

Yes, they would, I'm sure of it. Food is food.





False. A lone wolf WILL seek out a dog or dogs, no matter the breed. A wolf is a bad ass animal and no dog would stand a chance against one. Yes...One. A wolf wouldn't "seek to disengage and withdraw". The would kill and eat.

No chit! NO experience with wolves other than what he sees on YouTube.

Me too. And I'll be buying beer with TRH's cash all night.

Quite comical that he just can't see past his nose on this.

Several dogs and a human swinging a stick(pictured) and this is the outcome of a couple wolves wanting to get rid of the dogs in there territory....



Jayco

You keep posting videos of dogs Vs. anything but a wolf...

Poor fellow. Sorry that happened to your dog.

Their just playing your game prick!
But their beating you at it now that's funny.

Yeah, well, he'd better bring his "A game" and a few buddies if he wants to take on a pit bull. Right Hawk?

The Pitbull being the premier fighting canine, wild or domesticated, you betcha, assuming he's not caught napping like the Boxer appears to have been.

PS And, likewise, a wolf would be equally unwise to challenge a Greyhound to a race or a Bloodhound to a trailing match. Nor, however, should any of those dogs challenge a wolf to a survival in the wild contest.

in the basics of the storyline, what i can't understand is why the second dog, near the steps didn't engage the beast? there should have been two against one. that would have helped even the odds. but, no, he was sniffing the steps and poor boxer had already been bitten and dragged across the creek in the grip of the great Wolf where he was found cowering in a thicket.

why did that other dog pussy out? was he less than worthy as a household protector? someone needs to query that dog, and find out why he didn't support the boxer in a potential time of life and death. i mean two against one is always better odds, aren't they?

It was a yote, not a woof.

An assumption here is that a wild wolf will unfailingly rip a dog to shreds at every opportunity.

Sorta odd, dogs are their close cousins and between their ears they can be as different as night and day, anyone who has owned multiple dogs will aver that all had their own personality.

Close studies of wolf packs show the same thing.

Granted, the number one cause of death of healthy adult wolves is probably other wolves, pack members usually attacking intruders on sight. This including close relatives such as dogs and coyotes.

Key word here is "usually". Lone wolves leave their home pack and some may join other packs, a thing impossible is pack killed ALL intruders all the time.

Likewise, in Yellowstone, I recall reading of a remarkable 8 year-old alpha female that was kicked out of her home pack by a coalition of subordinates, who then went on to found another pack, a thing inmpossible if wolves killed strangers ALL the time.

Anyhoo... here's a piece on wolf dispersal...

http://biology.kenyon.edu/stures/compsbergdahl/dispersal.html
Dispersal in a wolf pack is a defining trait and a critical tendency of pack dynamics. The dispersal of individual wolves allows for diversity in packs and the formation of new packs. Wolves disperse from their natal pack between 9 and 36 months of age (Mech et al., 1998).

The dispersing wolf is often called a floater. This lone wolf may travel great distances looking for a new pack to join, or perhaps a lone wolf of the opposite sex to mate with and establish a new pack.

Studies have shown that floaters occupy home ranges larger than those of resident wolves, and their range overlaps broadly with several pack ranges (Siller-Zubiri, 1994). In one instance, a female wolf left a study area in Minnesota and was shot by a farmer in Saskatchewan, five hundred miles away (Steinhart, 1995).

I'm still going with actual lone wolf needing company, initially attracted by the dogs. It didn't KILL thedog because it wsn't in that frame of mind is all.

Just my $0.02,
Birdwatcher

That was interesting,I'm still going Yote with a thick winter coat? who knows?

No taking your money in a fools bet. Bring your pit bull(s) and I will put you in a place where they will have contact with a wolf(wolves) inside 48 hours. If any pit bull(s) survives the encounter, I will pay the expenses for the trip.

All you have to do is show up and walk them up and down a road couple times in daylight and then stay out in the are with them at night.

I don't currently own a Pitbull, and wouldn't set any dog of mine up in a fight with a poodle, let alone a wolf. Were such a fight arranged, however, in a proper fighting pit, in accordance with all applicable laws (hint: that means outside the country), one on one, 70 pound fighting weight, game bred Pitbull in his prime vs any wolf up to 120 lbs, my money goes on the Pitbull. It's a no brainer to anyone who knows the history of such arranged matches in the past. Any money placed on the wolf comes from a sucker.

trh you are all talk...just plain bullshit is all you have...you placed a bet earlier..it was accepted by several..you are nothing but a mouthpiece and a welcher.

Actually, I feel a bit embarrassed that a supposedly well-educated professor misuses such words. But, no need for you to reply like a self-conscious, crass teenager. Is that the way you respond to your students when they point out your errors, or are they even allowed to do so?

The real [bleep] dog psychologist has got it all figured out.

EXACTLY!
Ya'll are getting your college boy panties all wadded up over something that never happened, but by all means, carry on if it makes you feel good.

This thread is awesome!!!

Hawk: Get out from behind your 'puter a lil more often. Whens the last time you spent anytime in the woods? Hunting? Fishing?

It would do wonders to break you from your "wiki-world" and endless Youtube searches.

Yep, its been fun. I'm giving it 5 stars.

A wolf in a pit "fighting" out of its element MIGHT get beat by a pitbull due to circumstance. A pitbull on its own in the wild would be ripped to shreds by a wolf. Wouldn't even be close.

Disagree. Pit wins both, if it's one on one, hands down assuming the size disparity isn't greater than fifty pounds.

White Fang was a movie Hawkeye. A movie.

I've given the reasons for what I say. Go back and read my posts.

PS There's no scene in the movie of a Pitbull fighting a wolf in the wild anyway. The fight was in a pit, which you admitted the Pitbull would win. You showed some smarts with that comment.

Hawk, Wolverine or Pitbull ?

Wolverines are more bad ass than wolves, that's for sure. Would be an interesting match. Assuming a 45 lb fighting-weight game-bred Pitbull in its prime, tested and proven, vs a 45 lb wolverine, my money would still have to go on the Pitbull. The general rule that's come down from tradition when such matches were common was that any wild predator needs to be at least twice a Pitbull's size to be anything like an even match.

How much does an average Wolverine weigh?

A big male up to 45 lbs.

A decent dog will hold its own against a wolf........ You ask if the wolf will win? sure, damn near 99.9% of the the time. I have have seen some bad ass mutts...... I never, ever want to be on the bite end of either them sumofbitches....... A dog can kill a wolf. A wolf will kill a dog.

If wolves are running 180+ in MT/ID, then wolverines are easily 120+

Then you should show some smarts and admit that, in the wild out of its element, the pitbull would lose. As I've said before, it wouldn't even be close. The pit would be wolf poop.

LOL

Fester, how many dogs have been killed by wolves in the WY/ID/MT region in the last 25 25 yrs? Pretty good authority puts it at 153 and change.

How many wolves have been killed by dogs in the same area? Zero.

How many wolves have been killed by dogs in the last century in Northeast MN where wolves have always been around. Zero.

There is a pattern here I think.

Hawkeye, Have you Alaska's Wolf ManThe 1915-55 Wilderness Adventures of Frank Glaser by Jin Rearden?

If not it's a great book and one I think you'd like. I read it twice from the confines of my 'teepee' while listening to them howl....the light from an REI LED lamp is a fantastic medium and the Alaska outback is a perfect backdrop.

I do it several times each year, although the reading material changes (usually).

I'll hold to my opinion on that.

Yeah, and a dog will always get stitched up after meeting a coon.........

Apples and oranges. "Dogs" include Poodles, Dachshunds, Beagles, etc. Furthermore, wolves run in packs.

Fester, the vast majority of the 153 mentioned above were working dogs - herd dogs on sheep and hounds that ran lions and maybe bears.

I'll go to battle with a Mt Lion, now that is a bad ass animal.

Not a one was a fight specialist. I don't consider dogs that tree mountain lions and bears fight specialists. And then there's still the issue of wolves operating as packs. Just like a team of catch dogs would make short work of a lone wolf, a pack (or even a pair) of wolves would make short work of any lone dog.

i honestly cant tell you, BD. Im just saying that 99.9% of the dogs that were killed are the same type of dogs you have in your laps now. A dog can kill a wolf.

I'll take a wolverine one on one over any pitbull or wolf. Those things are just plain bad azz. There is a reason why grizzly bears can be run off a kill by a wolverine.

I dont have a dog in this fight......

trh you need to step into reality...at least once in a while

Good one.

Jesus Christ,

....he's an ex-spurt on Wolverine, now.

Who'd have ever guessed ?

GTC

Mountain lion either........ [bleep] them cats..........I have felt one watch me before. spooooooky. [bleep] them. want NO part of em'.

Agreed.

Sure you do!

Reminds me of you

i honestly cant tell you, BD. Im just saying that 99.9% of the dogs that were killed are the same type of dogs you have in your laps now.

Music sucks.
[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Xfq_-oVkQcQ[/video]

If we could get a small pack of Pit Bull dogs, ridden by Baboons throwing Wolverines into the Wolf pack they were attacking, we'd probably have a better feel for the whole discussion.

Somebody needs to get a nature channel team on this, pronto.

Jesus wept,....

GTC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eatQSKaUIQQ

Here you go Fester.

Thanks man......

Komondors,.....

Folks that tried em' in Alberta were very pleased,...their neighbors less so.

They "Run Wide" and go out and kill other Canids in an ever widening radius.

.......Their coats look like Rastafarian's "dreadlocks".

GTC

its the same with us....... hell, you pick the bad ass and put him up against the pusyy. That pusyy will knock him out. 00.1% of the time........... lol

Well Cross, lets start with baboonous Ghetotus. How many pounds you think these go?
[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LDGJzaTGSWw[/video]

The title on this one does disapoint though.
[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2KoeEv-VQuY[/video]

Here is some PWT/Trailer park
[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=y6rtSKvvhk4[/video]

Nice to see how the Hussein voters while away the time between welfare checks.......

I'm starting to think the use of hair extensions is a defense mechanism like the lizards that shed their tails. Wearing your real hair is an obvious disadvantage........ grin

What? Are you kidding, the rest of us should stick our heads up our azzes so we can see the world from his point of view.

Wolverines are bad-ass critters. The wolf finally took enough punishment from its bites and gave up on the idea. Where was the wolf's fighting magic in this scene? He must, no doubt, have run out of magic wolf dust.

Oh, and by the way, I thought wolves don't fight other critters. I thought they simply killed them outright. What happened to that theory here?

Well?

Well?

Not my fight browneye. I have to get to work.
Damb I phone. Obviously the wolf/badger fight was over some bodies kill or opertunistic find. As to a wolf and a pitbull, they will never fight in an organized pit. They will only meet on the wolf terms in the wild. Advantage wolf. I'm no fricken bioligist and niether are you. Stick to the food forum, you are at least 75% credable there and 90% tolurable.

Not meant to be directed at you. It was directed at the folks who told me that wolves don't fight other critters smaller than them, i.e., that they somehow bypass the fight stage and move directly to the kill stage. Why didn't the wolf just choose not to fight that wolverine and move directly to killing him? Answer: Because wolves have no magical ability to skip over the fight stage and move directly to the kill stage. They first have to win a fight when the predator they're after is willing to give them a fight back.

Interesting clip. I smell a rat there though. A wolverine SIGHTING is a rare thing, much less a wolf sighting. This guy gets the two fighting? Seems unrealistic and I could be wrong but...

I'd say these were two captive animals that got exploited for the sake of some film drama. You know, Marty Stouffer style.

Next question: Pitbull vs Wolverine?

Who knows the context of that video? I don't and neither do you. I do know a pitbull ain't a wolverine.

True. Pitbulls have more powerful jaws, larger more powerful bodies, and are more game than wolverines.

I believe I've seen a longer version of this clip before, and what they were initially filming was a wolf finding a kill, who then got challenged by a wolverine who wanted to drive him off the kill. Wolf was determined to keep the kill, so a fight ensued.

The photographer may well have planted the kill, though, to attract some carnivores to it for filming.

Have you done bite force tests on wolverines?

A pitbull is more 'game' than a wolverine? Please explain how you could possibly know that.

It's possible.

Stouffer was a fraud though.

Because there are no game wild animals. Gameness only comes about with domestication and intentional breeding for that characteristic. That's because it's a survival-non-adaptive trait, thus it cannot develop in nature.

Please define 'gameness'.

Insults notwithstanding, this is a fascinating thread. Somebody correct me but I believe there is no discernable DNA difference between a wolf and a dog, even a yorkie. Also, some of these huge gogs that were "designed" to protect sheep from wolves like a Great Pyhrenees for example, do they stand a chance with a wolf?

On the subject of Pit Bulls, they scare me more than lions. Many years ago in South Florida, the inbred neightbor of a friend of mine used to raise Pits and other dogs, icluding two very BIG and mean Dobermans. One day one of the Pits got out by chewing, yes chewing though a wire fence and in the process, killed the two Dobermans and yes even one of my friend's horses. They found the horse dead with a destroyed rear leg and the Pit Bull dying with it's head so swollen from the horse's attempts at kicking itself free. So, I'm not an expert other than to say my dear and departed female JRT Maggie would kick a wolf's ass (well at least in her own mind!) but if I were a wolf, I'd avoid those Pit Bulls..

keep in mind ive rarely seen the dogs run singally, usually see 3 or 4 or more per flock.....the ranchers know enough to stack the fight in the dogs odds....

The only way to determine gameness is break the fighting animals up,when one turns his head away. Then turn him loose again if he goes back for more..he is game,if he walks away he's cold. If not broken up,the lesser of the two will be fightin defence,going back after being on the losing end is offence.

You're showing atypical good sense, jorge.

It's a characteristic that, if found in the wild, would assure the extinction of whatever species possessed it. It's an unwillingness to release a grip once acquired (except to secure a superior grip), regardless of the degree of bodily damage taken in battle. Naive people mistake the observation of gameness in practice with "locking jaws." The jaws don't lock. The Pitbull merely refuses to let go. Now, a Pitbull trained to a release command will release on command, but that's not a statement about its gameness. Gameness is the refusal to let go due to damage, not the refusal to let go in response to a command, assuming the dog is trained to such.

Pit fighting professionals never train their dogs to let go on command, since this training operates counter to their purposes, and opt for breaking sticks instead, which are wedged between the upper and lower teeth and worked back towards the molars till the grip is released and the dogs are separated.

Yep, that's another essential characteristic of gameness, and is indeed how it's tested by professional dog fighting men.

All I know is that pitbulls scare the hell outta me and should be banned. lol

That's basically how professional rooster fighting is done also.

Counter-intuitively, Pitbulls by nature tend actually to be friendly towards people in the extreme, if not conditioned to be otherwise. Poor folks, however, who cannot afford security systems, and are frequent victims of crime, have the tendency to train their Pitbulls to be people-aggressive. There are specific techniques for this that are popular in "the hood," usually referred to as "making them mean." They go about this starting in puppyhood.

Ever see the movie Sling Blade? that's what a Pit Bull is, a tragedy waiting to happen. Add to that I've never seen anybody but inbreds and other "untermenchschen" own the damned thing, same with those weirdos that keep lions, tigers, etc. I love dogs, but by God but Pit Bulls are a danger.

Pitbulls are popular among dog rescue types, too, jorge, who tend to be white, middle class, yuppy types rather than ghetto thugs.

Nice picture of Sophia and the killers there Hawk, but since this is a FORUM where opinions and facts and experience are the basis for posting, I personally have never seen "civilized" people own those dogs, not EVER. Every time I've seen one (and it's owner) have either been the Michael Vic or Deliverance types and personally not a single one of my friends have ever owned one.

Not going to read all 27 pages so maybe it's been said but the guy in the OP is either the bravest son of a female dog alive or the dumbest. Not sure which. But the day I walk out in the apparent 'wilds' in the black of night in pursuit of my boxer that apparently is getting eaten by something badder than he is, to wade a creek in my flip flops armed with a flash light and some pepper spray.... well.... hopefully somebody will just put me down because my end is not likely to be painless.
On top of that he thought it might be a coyote?!?!? If I ever live where they have a coyote that can hold a 65# boxer by the muzzle, I'm moving!
I've owned multiple boxers (granted, 65# was the smallest one I owned, by far) and I've shot multiple coyotes, that comment/concern simply doesn't compute.
In any case, glad the boxer (GREAT dogs!) suffered only a bruised ego.
Regarding what the critter was that had the dog subdued, whatever it was, it should have been shot with something other than pepper spray. Nickle says it'll be back... with more attitude (or friends).

There are lot more Pits that don't go bad than do.Petey from the Little Rascals was a Pit,he never attacked Darla,or any of the others.Generalizing can be a bad thing.....anti's will tell you AR's are a tragedy waiting to happen also...Ever seen the movie "Heat"?

An AR doesn't have free will.

I've seen them in middle class white neighborhoods all my life. Granted, those are usually registered with the AKC as either American Staffordshire Terriers or Staffordshire Bull Terriers, but a rose by any other name smells as sweet.

Here's James Thurber (You've heard of him, right?) writing about his Pitbull named Rex:

A Snapshot of a Dog:

I ran across a dim photograph of him the other day. He's been dead 25 years. His name was Rex (my two brothers and I named him) and he was a Bull Terrier. "An American bull terrier," [That was prior to the UKC placing the word "pit" in parentheses between American and Bull Terrier in the breed name] we used to say, proudly; none of your English bulls [English Bull Teriers are a different, though related, breed]. He had one Brindle eye that sometimes made him look like a clown and sometimes reminded you of a politician with derby hat and cigar. The rest of him was white except for a Brindle Saddle and a Brindle stocking on a hind leg. Nevertheless, there was a nobility about him. He was big and muscular and beautifully made. He never lost his dignity even when trying to accomplish the extravagant tasks my brother and I used to set for him.

One of these was the bringing of a ten-foot wooden rail into the Yard through the back gate. We would throw it out into the alley and tell him to get it. Rex was as powerful as a wrestler, and he would catch the rail at the balance, lift it clear of the ground, and trot with great confidence toward the gate. Of course, the gate being only four feet wide, he couldn't bring the rail in broadside. He found that out when he got a few terrific jolts, but he wouldn't give up. He finally figured out how to do it, by dragging the rail, holding onto one end, growling. He got a great, wagging satisfaction out of his work.

He was a tremendous fighter, but he never Started fights. He never went for a dog's throat but for one of its ears (that teaches a dog a lesson), and he would get his grip, close his eyes, and hold on. He could hold on for hours. His longest fight lasted from dusk to almost pitch-dark, one Sunday. It was fought with a large, snarly nondescript belonging to a large colored man. When Rex finally got his ear grip, the brief whirlwind of snarling turned to screeching. It was frightening to listen to and to watch. The Negro boldly picked the dogs up, swung them around his head, and finally let them fly like a hammer in a hammer throw, but although they landed ten feet away, with a great plump, Rex still held on. Working their way to the middle of the car tracks, two or three streetcars were held up by the fight. A motorman tried to pry Rex's jaws open with a switch rod; somebody lighted a stick and held it to Rex's tail but he paid no attention. Rex's joy of battle, when battle was joined, was almost tranquil. He had a kind of pleasant expression during fights, his eyes closed in what would of seemed to be sleep had it not been for the turmoil of the struggle. The Fire Department finally had to be sent for and a powerful stream of water turned on the dogs for several moments before Rex finally let go.

The story of that Homeric fight got all around town, and some of our relatives considered it a blot on the family name. They insisted we get rid of Rex, but nobody could have made us give him up. We would have left town with him first. It would have been different, perhaps, if he had ever looked for trouble. But he had a gentle disposition. He never bit a person in the ten strenuous years that he lived, nor ever growled at anyone except prowlers.

Swimming was his favorite recreation. The first time he ever saw a body of water, he trotted nervously along the steep bank for a while, fell to barking wildly, and finally plunged in from a Height of eight feet or more. I shall always remember that shining, virgin dive. Then he swam upstream and back just for the pleasure of it, like a man. It was fun to see him battle upstream against a stiff current, growling every foot of the way. He had as much fun in the water as any person I have ever known. You didn't have to throw a stick into the water to get him to go in. Of course, he would bring back a stick if you did throw one in. He would have brought back a piano if you had thrown one in.

That reminds me of the night he went a-roving in the light of the moon and brought back a small Chest of draws he had found somewhere--how far from the house nobody ever knew. There were no draws in the Chest when he got it home, and it wasn't a good one--just an old cheap piece abandoned on a trash heap. Still it was something he wanted, probably because it presented a nice problem in transportation. We first knew about his achievement when, deep in the night, we heard sounds as if two or three people were trying to tear the house down. We came downstairs and turned on the porch light. Rex was on the top step, trying to pull the thing up, but it had caught and he was just holding his own. I suppose he would have held his own until dawn if we hadn't helped him. Next day we carted the Chest miles away and threw it out. If we had thrown it out nearby, he would have brought it home again, as a small token of his integrity in such matters.

There was in his world no such thing as the impossible. Even death couldn't beat him down. He died, it is true, but only, as one of his admirers said, after "straight-arming the death angel" for more than an hour. Late one afternoon he wandered home, too slowly and uncertainly to be the Rex that had trotted briskly homeward up our avenue for ten years. I think we all knew when he came through the gate that he was dying. He had apparently taken a terrible beating, probably from the owner of some dog he had got into a fight with. His head and body were scarred, and some of the brass studs of his heavy Collar were sprung loose. He licked at our hands and, staggering, fell, but got up again. We could see that he was looking for someone. One of his three masters was not home. He did not get home for an hour. During that hour the Bull Terrier fought against death as he had fought against the cold, strong current of the creek. When the person he was waiting for did come through the gate, whistling, ceasing to whistle, Rex walked a few wabbly paces toward him, touched his hand with his Muzzle, and fell down again. This time he didn't get up.

But those that own them do.

An AR can't run off a leash. A gun can't bolt out the door and attack the mailman.

It's easy, if you'd just let it be.

Ah, but a man with an AR can.

I see where yer going with this.

I just disagree.

A Pit has a mind, an AR don't.

But the man with the AR does.

The man with the Pit is normally the problem also.Bad owners give them a bad name,I am willing to bet horses injure more people a year than Pits do.

Certainly in proportion to their numbers. People also forget how many Pitbulls there are in the nation when they discuss stats. There are many times more of what statisticians term "pitbulls" in the nation than any other breed. Not even close.

Blah blah blah, White fang, pit bull, wolf, Dog, Baboon...


All I know is that I ain't going to bet on an animal that got bested by pigs...

Finally, a rational decision backed by history.

Well, where does the famed Honey Badger fit into all of this toughness/gameness/big bite scenario?

Where does the Komodo Dragon rank?

Where does a mad Celtic wife with a claymore rank?

Just read on Wiki, Komodo's can weigh up to 200 pounds.

Where ever he the fuqs wants too!

Dayyyyyyum, sounds like their main diet are deer.

They like them too, I guess.
Music sucks on this one.

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=n6Riq-d4W_o[/video]

This one says 12 MPH. Dang, you can find all kinds of stuff, or crap on here! Good thing none of these dumb asses fell down while running away!

12mph is scooting...awesome footage!

He's a much better person than you will ever be. I had the pleasure of working with him while a writing intern. RMEF has done more for land preservation, than you will ever do. While there policies have now changed, the land they conserved has not. Don is one of the good guys. You wanna speak different about him, PM me, we can always have a sit down and talk.

The Rocky Mountain Wolf Foundation has done nothing but to use the Wolves as a fund raising scheme that my opinion. Can you prove me wrong?

The RMEF has conserved and enhanced over 5 million acres of ground.

Is the RMEF using the wolf as a fundraising scheme....Yes. Are elk numbers down. Hell Yes. Hunting in N. Idaho, and NW Montana has drastically changed since wolves have been reintroduced.

If every wolf was dishing out cash for every elk they killed, we would be fine, but they are not. Wolves take tags away from hunters plain and simple. Look at the numbers for Idaho Elk Tags sold this year. They are WAY down. People in the areas that I know aren't seeing elk, and don't even think about trying to draw a moose tag. You can, but good luck finding a moose. 12 years ago when I got a moose, there were tons. Its not up and down cycles, its wolves. So is RMEF collecting. Sure they are, they need too, something has to be done to limit numbers of wolves.

My opinion is they sat on their butts for years and did nothing. But Collect RMWF money. You're talking to a former member of the RMWF.

Wow, can I get your autograph? I didn't know I was talking to a FORMER member!!!

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