Syria and the Iraq Syndrome Responding to Assad is about more than our interests. It is 'about who we are. By WILLIAM A. GALSTON-
Only now is America reckoning the full cost of the disaster in Iraq�friends in the Middle East doubting our competence, our closest ally unwilling to stand with us in Syria, our people weary and fearful of entanglements that could prove open-ended. Little more than a decade after the Vietnam syndrome was laid to rest, an Iraq syndrome has replaced it.
The question is whether this new sentiment will dominate policy�whether acting for the wrong reasons in Iraq will prevent us from acting for the right reasons in Syria.
On Friday, in what was surely Secretary of State John Kerry's finest hour, he stated the challenge clearly to the nation: "Now, we know that after a decade of conflict, the American people are tired of war. Believe me, I am too. But fatigue does not absolve us of our responsibility."
"Our responsibility." What is it? What does it require of us? In the first place, "our" means all of us�the United States, not just the president. Whatever the truth of the interminable debate over the limits of executive power, Mr. Obama was right to ask the members of Congress, as representatives of the American people, to join him in a firm but measured response to Bashar Assad's crime against his own people.
But why is it this country's responsibility? The stark fact is that the U.S. is the only country in the world with the capacity to respond to Assad's outrageous use of chemical weapons in a way that might deter him from repeating it.
It would be good to have friends and allies standing with the U.S. But from a military standpoint, it is not strictly necessary. If America acts, others may follow�or at least offer support. If we don't, no one else will.
If you don't have the ability to do something, it makes no sense to say that you have a responsibility to do it. It does not follow that if you do have the ability to do something you also have the responsibility to do it. It does mean that you can't avoid the question.
For better or worse (mostly for better, I believe), the United States is the guarantor of the global order, which we took the lead in creating. In that role, we provide global public goods�forms of stability and security, such as freedom of the seas, from which other nations benefit, not just us.
True enough, the stability and security that this country provides allows other nations to be free-riders, to benefit from what we do without contributing to it. Understandably, the American people resent this�and when a foreign involvement backfires, they want to scale back the nation's global role.
But Americans benefit, perhaps more than anyone else, from the leading role the country plays in the world. The task of U.S. leaders is to remind the people that we have a lot to lose if others come to believe that we are no longer willing to bear the burdens of leadership.
These general truths do not resolve the particular question now before the country. Some things are clear. The president's aim in Syria is deterrence, not regime change. The means cannot include boots on the ground, and the actions taken must minimize the risk that any Americans will fall into Assad's hands.
A purely symbolic act would be worse than useless, however. Mr. Obama and Congress should weigh the possibility that effective deterrence may require targeting regime assets (such as Assad's air force) beyond those specifically involved in the poison-gas attack.
By seeking authorization for the use of military force, Mr. Obama has put the political system to a test. Has Congress lost the ability to treat serious matters seriously? Can the president persuade a reluctant people to follow him? He will not be able to do this unless he makes his case wholeheartedly, without reluctance or ambivalence.
Syria is about more than our interests, narrowly construed. What we do now is "profoundly about who we are," as Mr. Kerry put it. "We are the country that has tried, not always successfully, but always tried to honor a set of universal values around which we have organized our lives and our aspirations. This crime against conscience, this crime against humanity, this crime against the most fundamental principles of international community, against the norm of the international community�this matters to us, and it matters to who we are. And it matters to leadership and to our credibility in the world."
Mr. Obama will need to convey this idea to the American people as well, from the Oval Office. He must be prepared to go all-in to win what is shaping up as a tough fight on Capitol Hill. One thing is clear: A loss would shatter his presidency, and a lot more.
n what was surely Secretary of State John Kerry's finest hour
Finest! hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Good one.
Quote
The stark fact is that the U.S. is the only country in the world with the capacity to respond to Assad's outrageous use of chemical weapons in a way that might deter him from repeating it.
No actually we are not, Russia Israel France heck anyone with a nuke.
During Desert Storm there was "the mile of death". The countries in the Middle East believed up until that day "we would never do something like that". They feared us with reason to do so. Then there was a change in the White House. Bill Clinton and the Blackhawk down incident removed the fear we earned during Desert Storm. For 8 years he allowed Saddam thumb his nose at the UN and the US. Saddam used chemical weapons against Iran's troops. After Desert Storm he used them against the Kurds in Iraq. There was no response from the US. Only after 3,000 innocent people died an 9/11 did we react to our enemy with a real response. By then Saddam had moved his WMDs. Now we "have" to get involved in Syria? I hope it goes better the CF of Libya and Egypt! Even the people of the Middle East realize Obama and our government no longer represent the American citizens.
If he did , he didn't use enough gas or he wouldn't still be fighting the Rebels. If they all die at each others hands the world would be better off , this would be better than one US Soldier losing his life for a country that will never change.
But why is it this country's responsibility? The stark fact is that the U.S. is the only country in the world with the capacity to respond to Assad's outrageous use of chemical weapons in a way that might deter him from repeating it.
Have to disagree on this point. There are many countries that could respond. China, Russia, Iran, India, Germany, France, England, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait, Israel and Japan all have the technical means to conduct and effective response.
"Syria is about more than our interests, narrowly construed. What we do now is "profoundly about who we are," as Mr. Kerry put it. "We are the country that has tried, not always successfully, but always tried to honor a set of universal values around which we have organized our lives and our aspirations. This crime against conscience, this crime against humanity, this crime against the most fundamental principles of international community, against the norm of the international community�this matters to us, and it matters to who we are. And it matters to leadership and to our credibility in the world."
A crockofshit.
Obama wrote a check without funds to cover it, and now he wants it honored.
It's HIS name on the hot check.......... not the Senators, Representatives, and for damn sure not the grunts who expects to bail him out.
The R's need to [bleep] Boehner and Cantor and tell Obama to shut up and quit pissin' Putin off.
Ya know, I might be able to really stretch my imagination & buy into the U.S. being "responsible" & taking action if that action was strong, decisive & accomplished something.
But unfortunately, anything that is done by the comedic bunch of idiots in the WH will do none of those things.
Hock...hush up,goofball. Can't you go +1 or "well said" others who think for you?
Your stalking and doubling stupid with your posts is getting a quite bit freaky. Do you have some alert that goes off when folks you wish to emulate post?
Have some more muscle milk and some animal crackers. Someone will be along in a minute to tell you what to actually think.
If he did , he didn't use enough gas or he wouldn't still be fighting the Rebels. If they all die at each others hands the world would be better off , this would be better than one US Soldier losing his life for a country that will never change.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ yeah, what he said. NO American lives for this schitthole country, this schitthead POtuS, or this administration, period. Let them kill each other off, none of them are worth our time or trouble.
How about we respond to the atrocities committed by the Syrian rebels, otherwise known as Al-Qaeda, to show the world just "who we are". After all, aren't we already at war with them?
The stark fact is that the U.S. is the only country in the world with the capacity to respond to Assad's outrageous use of chemical weapons in a way that might deter him from repeating it.
Well, that's just flat-out not true.
Turkey has an army. Saudi Arabia has an air force and a large bankroll. Just because they can't do it as well as the US doesn't mean they shouldn't do it themselves.
As has been said before, not one US Soldiers life is worth losing to save one of these damn animals, Let them gas each other who gives a [bleep]? If they start shooting gas outside their own borders then we can consider doing something if it affects the security of the US.
It's about time we quit messing in other peoples sand boxes, [bleep] wanna kill each other off, so be it, [bleep] wanna kill us off, then we got something to be upset about, as of now Syria is absolutely no threat to the US in anyway shape or form and I doubt they ever will be.
If we sit back long enough they might just press enough buttons and take care of the problem for us.
I just told you what I supported dumbshitt. I know you're a short order cook but I kept the answer short and succinct, for dumbasses just like yourself.
Do you need for me to draw you a illustration,too?
By whom? Turkish security forces found a 2kg cylinder with sarin gas after searching the homes of Syrian militants from the Al-Qaeda linked Al-Nusra Front who were previously detained, Turkish media reports. The gas was reportedly going to be used in a bomb.
The sarin gas was found in the homes of suspected Syrian Islamists detained in the southern provinces of Adana and Mersia following a search by Turkish police on Wednesday, reports say. The gas was allegedly going to be used to carry out an attack in the southern Turkish city of Adana.
When the radical Muslims start respecting the Christians, the Jews, the Hindus the Sikhs the you name it, then they might be worth sharing the rest of the earth with. Until that time, let them fight it out between themselves. The more they kill between themselves the less we have to do it when WWIII really starts to get hot. kwg
Syria and the Iraq Syndrome Responding to Assad is about more than our interests. It is 'about who we are. By WILLIAM A. GALSTON-
Only now is America reckoning the full cost of the disaster in Iraq�friends in the Middle East doubting our competence, our closest ally unwilling to stand with us in Syria, our people weary and fearful of entanglements that could prove open-ended. Little more than a decade after the Vietnam syndrome was laid to rest, an Iraq syndrome has replaced it.
The question is whether this new sentiment will dominate policy�whether acting for the wrong reasons in Iraq will prevent us from acting for the right reasons in Syria.
On Friday, in what was surely Secretary of State John Kerry's finest hour, he stated the challenge clearly to the nation: "Now, we know that after a decade of conflict, the American people are tired of war. Believe me, I am too. But fatigue does not absolve us of our responsibility."
"Our responsibility." What is it? What does it require of us? In the first place, "our" means all of us�the United States, not just the president. Whatever the truth of the interminable debate over the limits of executive power, Mr. Obama was right to ask the members of Congress, as representatives of the American people, to join him in a firm but measured response to Bashar Assad's crime against his own people.
But why is it this country's responsibility? The stark fact is that the U.S. is the only country in the world with the capacity to respond to Assad's outrageous use of chemical weapons in a way that might deter him from repeating it.
It would be good to have friends and allies standing with the U.S. But from a military standpoint, it is not strictly necessary. If America acts, others may follow�or at least offer support. If we don't, no one else will.
If you don't have the ability to do something, it makes no sense to say that you have a responsibility to do it. It does not follow that if you do have the ability to do something you also have the responsibility to do it. It does mean that you can't avoid the question.
For better or worse (mostly for better, I believe), the United States is the guarantor of the global order, which we took the lead in creating. In that role, we provide global public goods�forms of stability and security, such as freedom of the seas, from which other nations benefit, not just us.
True enough, the stability and security that this country provides allows other nations to be free-riders, to benefit from what we do without contributing to it. Understandably, the American people resent this�and when a foreign involvement backfires, they want to scale back the nation's global role.
But Americans benefit, perhaps more than anyone else, from the leading role the country plays in the world. The task of U.S. leaders is to remind the people that we have a lot to lose if others come to believe that we are no longer willing to bear the burdens of leadership.
These general truths do not resolve the particular question now before the country. Some things are clear. The president's aim in Syria is deterrence, not regime change. The means cannot include boots on the ground, and the actions taken must minimize the risk that any Americans will fall into Assad's hands.
A purely symbolic act would be worse than useless, however. Mr. Obama and Congress should weigh the possibility that effective deterrence may require targeting regime assets (such as Assad's air force) beyond those specifically involved in the poison-gas attack.
By seeking authorization for the use of military force, Mr. Obama has put the political system to a test. Has Congress lost the ability to treat serious matters seriously? Can the president persuade a reluctant people to follow him? He will not be able to do this unless he makes his case wholeheartedly, without reluctance or ambivalence.
Syria is about more than our interests, narrowly construed. What we do now is "profoundly about who we are," as Mr. Kerry put it. "We are the country that has tried, not always successfully, but always tried to honor a set of universal values around which we have organized our lives and our aspirations. This crime against conscience, this crime against humanity, this crime against the most fundamental principles of international community, against the norm of the international community�this matters to us, and it matters to who we are. And it matters to leadership and to our credibility in the world."
Mr. Obama will need to convey this idea to the American people as well, from the Oval Office. He must be prepared to go all-in to win what is shaping up as a tough fight on Capitol Hill. One thing is clear: A loss would shatter his presidency, and a lot more.
I never thought that I would see the day when isaac posted such an unmitigated crock of nonsense, apparently with his full support and agreement.
Our government is NOT honorable. On the contrary, our government's only interest is in perpetuating its power. Kerry is part of that government. Ergo, Kerry is not honorable and whatever he says is calculated to perpetuate the power of an idiotic, despotic and tyrannical government. Its not about us and who we are, its about those idiots in Washington and what they want us to believe. I'm not buying it.
If it's really about "who we are" where were we when the genocide was raging in Rwanda? Wasn't the USA/UN supposed to step in to stop any genocide after the horrific events in Europe during WW2? Or did we not act because there are no economic (oil price stability) benefits
My question is, where are the missiles aimed at? Who are we bombing? Even when we bombed the crap out of Germany in WW II, we still had to put boots on the ground. We destroyed Iraq from the air and still put boots on the ground. This will not end well.
I hope they wipe each other off the face of the planet...
Bob, my friend, you live in the world of reality, and I'm afraid that you may have taken a step out of it momentarily. Do you honestly believe that our mission there would be Operation Save The Babies?
It's nice to think about but come on bro.... never gonna happen...
There are so many other avenues to go after Assad, assuming for the moment that he's the bad guy. Direct negotiation, the UN, International Court of Justice, financial sanctions, trade embargo/blockade.
However, as we have all seen, Obama approaches everything in a high handed, unilateralist, thug like manner backed by a campaign of lies and finger-pointing....with predictably sheitty results. Syria is just more of the same.
Obama is once again behaving irresponsibly and acting like a spoiled stupid child.
Roger Hedgecock this evening read all the military info presented in the hearings to the senate committee indicating Assad gassed his people. There was no proof and very little more than rubbish.
The proposal is for Sixty days (to kill Christians and rebels) and no COMBAT troops on the ground. When, in the course of these events (noncombatant troops on the ground) the US forces are fired on or US ships or aircraft are fired on the POS POTUS can then without ok from congress return with force he deems necessary.
This is also looking more and more like a situation in which Putin and others wish to take on a gutless POS before we get someone with balls in office.
This is also looking more and more like a situation in which Putin and others wish to take on a gutless POS before we get someone with balls in office.
I don't see why he would.
I think Putin,..along with the rest of the would,..would be happy if the maniacs who control the American government just stopped fuggin' up the world.
I'm not that demanding, however.
I'd be happy if the American government just stopped fuggin' up America.
Let them gas each other who gives a [bleep]? =========
I do.
They've been doing this schit for hundreds of years, If we go in it will make no difference in their determination to kill each other so [bleep] 'em. I am not willing to risk one single american life for the likes of these animals as it will make no difference ever.
Look at the rest of the Middle East not one damn thing we have done has made any difference, the only reason small sections of the middle east are stable is because of the amount of money we pump into that region via the money we spend at the pump, take that away and you would see them going back to the old ways again. they don't like western ways and they sure the [bleep] don't like us telling them the way things should be.
They've made their choices, whether their right or wrong they've made them.
I'm sorry Bob, I usually agree with most things you say but this ain't one of them.
If it turns out that the rebels are responsible for the latest attack, do 'we' then have to come out in support of the Assad government?
Quote
U.N. has testimony that Syrian rebels used sarin gas: investigator Sun, May 5 2013
GENEVA (Reuters) - U.N. human rights investigators have gathered testimony from casualties of Syria's civil war and medical staff indicating that rebel forces have used the nerve agent sarin, one of the lead investigators said on Sunday.
The United Nations independent commission of inquiry on Syria has not yet seen evidence of government forces having used chemical weapons, which are banned under international law, said commission member Carla Del Ponte.
"Our investigators have been in neighboring countries interviewing victims, doctors and field hospitals and, according to their report of last week which I have seen, there are strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof of the use of sarin gas, from the way the victims were treated," Del Ponte said in an interview with Swiss-Italian television.
"This was use on the part of the opposition, the rebels, not by the government authorities," she added, speaking in Italian.
Del Ponte, a former Swiss attorney-general who also served as prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, gave no details as to when or where sarin may have been used.
The Geneva-based inquiry into war crimes and other human rights violations is separate from an investigation of the alleged use of chemical weapons in Syria instigated by U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, which has since stalled.
President Bashar al-Assad's government and the rebels accuse each another of carrying out three chemical weapon attacks, one near Aleppo and another near Damascus, both in March, and another in Homs in December.
The civil war began with anti-government protests in March 2011. The conflict has now claimed an estimated 70,000 lives and forced 1.2 million Syrian refugees to flee.
The United States has said it has "varying degrees of confidence" that sarin has been used by Syria's government on its people.
President Barack Obama last year declared that the use or deployment of chemical weapons by Assad would cross a "red line".
Did anyone notice the irony of Kerry being a former war protestor, now being heckled by war protestors?
...
I see the point that CW are nasty & evil chit. But it appears both sides are using them. Neither side is our friend. Let them keep killing each other - or at least push for negotiation.
If one of our friends is threatened, then I'd say differently, but we should sit this one out.
There are two ways to destroy nerve gas, vaporize it with a nuke or put 75,000 boots on the ground and use this.
Actually there are two proven ways to destroy chemical agents. 1:Chlorine (applied directly on them and you have to use enough and allow it to work long enough) 2:Extreme heat.
The first isn't feasible without boots on the ground. The US won't use the second choice.
There are two ways to destroy nerve gas, vaporize it with a nuke or put 75,000 boots on the ground and use this.
Actually there are two proven ways to destroy chemical agents. 1:Chlorine (applied directly on them and you have to use enough and allow it to work long enough) 2:Extreme heat.
The first isn't feasible without boots on the ground. The US won't use the second choice.
Isn't that what I said. Did you check out the new fangled chemical washer the Air Force has?
"Syria... It's Really About Farcical Clusterphucks."
See: Libya, Egypt for "targeted, small-scale CF's" and Afghanistan, Iraq for "full tit in wringer CF's". With arab chitholes it's an all-in blackened-earth or stay-out, let'em kill each other off proposition, and all-in is not in the cards for us militarily or financially so why the [bleep] is anyone saber rattling is bit of a mystery.
Look, we've no cogent strategy for getting 60-million or whatever people off food stamps or even securing our own f'n southern border and those are relatively simple f'n problems concretely if not politically - so how anyone fancies removing each individual chemical weapon from a chaotic middle eastern civil war between opposing bad actors in a cute little sterile, "limited" engagement escapes my imagination.
Pap like that article is nothing but a low budget "save the children" commercial in support of a pending face-saving military venture by obama. What's a few american lives in exchange for his glory, after all?
This has the potential to be the biggest cluster [bleep] to come down the pike since SEA especially if it spreads to Iran and throughout the rest of an already simmering region.
Our manpower is spread so thin that numerous deployments for our troops is the norm not the exception these days..we have fewer squadrons of aircraft and ships at sea which IMO greatly increases risk to the point of being dangerously unacceptable should we be confronted with several theaters of operations.
Repair depots across the country are full renovating worn out equipment from Iraq and Iran,DOD orders are behind and stacking up due to material shortages experienced by many civilian contractors.
I live close to the AF base as many of you know and have friends still active duty and recently retired who tell me we aren't close to being ready for the unknowns if this so called limited action gets out of hand, yet the military will be required to execute the dumbphuckitude of this administration.
Sadly run of the mill average Joe on the street seems to have a handle on this situation yet those who govern are blinded by their own incompetence.
Sorry Shreck, I didn't read how the machine works. I was thinking about the old way, dump a schitt load of chlorine on and let it work, OR use napalm, or nuke it.
Sorry Shreck, I didn't read how the machine works. I was thinking about the old way, dump a schitt load of chlorine on and let it work, OR use napalm, or nuke it.
Did anyone notice the irony of Kerry being a former war protestor, now being heckled by war protestors?
Anyone notice insidious, and escalating ESCALATING influence of a bunch of lame, inarticulate "VietNam Vets" suffering from "I stuck my cock in a gold mine" syndrome ?
Points I would like to make. We, our US government, have armed the rebel fraction, just as Russia has armed Assad. Rebels whom 12 years ago bombed our cities, thousands of men, woman, and children died on that day. Rebels who may have not flown the planes themselves, but support those who did.
A government which has ruled through fear and misdirection for 5 years. A government that seeks to limit it's citizens gun rights and yet seeks to arm an enemy that is known to us.
Reprehensible as the use of checmical weapons is and was, the number of children that died in that attack will pale in comparision to the missile strikes our government is contemplating. Assad is not a stupid man and he has already started moving his assets into locations which will produce the most collateral damage to non-combatant children.
I have the same feeling in my gut as I did that morning 12 years ago when I was on shift and watched in disbelief as the planes were flown into the trade center towers and pentagon.
Sending the matter to Congress and the Senate was actually a very smart move. If they vote to approve the measure, when the aftermath comes, Obama cannot be held accountable, the Senate approved it. If it is voted down, Obama cn just invoke his presidental rights and authorize it anyway. He can then use that to his advantage to convince our allies in the Middle East that its the politicians who blocked our involvement, making him the martyr.
It's a shame how much can and will be effected by this action. Let's spend money on missiles to bomb Syria, so we can furlough our civilian government workforce and continue to decrease the size of our military force at home. Let's give guns to al quieda so we can take the guns away from our own people.
Just as Obama has used children to fuel hatred and tightening of laws in the US, Assad will use children to fuel the worlds anger against the US as a warmonger.
Sorry Shreck, I didn't read how the machine works. I was thinking about the old way, dump a schitt load of chlorine on and let it work, OR use napalm, or nuke it.
Napalm? We haven't had it for a long time. If I'm correct a Louisiana power plant bought the military 's entire left over stock to burn as fuel to make electricity.
This is also looking more and more like a situation in which Putin and others wish to take on a gutless POS before we get someone with balls in office.
I don't see why he would.
I think Putin,..along with the rest of the would,..would be happy if the maniacs who control the American government just stopped fuggin' up the world.
I'm not that demanding, however.
I'd be happy if the American government just stopped fuggin' up America.
I'm fearful that for the US Congress to even remotely comprehend the significance of that article...the Good Lord Himself would have to descend and enlighten them!!
I'm fearful that for the US Congress to even remotely comprehend the significance of that article...the Good Lord Himself would have to descend and enlighten them!!
The U.S. Congress doesn't care about anything except keeping their masters happy.
Who we are??? So where were the scum like Kerry and McLame when the Kmer Rouge wers slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent Cambodes?? Rwanda??? How about when Saddam used nerve gas to murder the poor Kurds in HIS [bleep] up country?? I never heard a word from ANY of them. Kerrys finest hour will be when someone holds his face into a spinning propeller of a speedboat. I wouldn't follow him or obamba on a trip to a first class whorehouse.
This is also looking more and more like a situation in which Putin and others wish to take on a gutless POS before we get someone with balls in office.
I don't see why he would.
I think Putin,..along with the rest of the would,..would be happy if the maniacs who control the American government just stopped fuggin' up the world.
I'm not that demanding, however.
I'd be happy if the American government just stopped fuggin' up America.
Amen.
I think this is another attempt by zero to fug us up.
Obama's been wrong in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Libya, Israel, and that's just the short list.
Now some with no memory of any of that think he could possibly be right in Syria?
Nonsense from those with no sense.
I think ricky has pretty much summed it up. The administration has zero credibility, and has an abysmal track record of 'getting it right' on ANY issue, let alone foreign policy and diplomacy.
I have to keep saying that Obama has never done anything in the middle east that actually promoted America's best interests.
Obama's been wrong in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Libya, Israel, and that's just the short list.
Now some with no memory of any of that think he could possibly be right in Syria?
Nonsense from those with no sense.
I think ricky has pretty much summed it up. The administration has zero credibility, and has an abysmal track record of 'getting it right' on ANY issue, let alone foreign policy and diplomacy.
I have to keep saying that Obama has never done anything in the middle east that actually promoted America's best interests.
Thinking about getting in another war when we are broke is insane. Iraq and Afghanistan should have been taken over and just run as economic colonies with the money going directly on our debt for the next thousand years or whatever it takes to pay us back for all the money we spent warring with them. But instead our children go over there and fight and die to make it safe for the big boys to make even more money and our treasury is even further depleted. Anybody that wants us to go is either a [bleep] moron or in the employ of those seeking further loot. Let Syria burn.
Missing Iraq money may have been stolen, auditors say
Reporting from Washington � After the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003, the George W. Bush administration flooded the conquered country with so much cash to pay for reconstruction and other projects in the first year that a new unit of measurement was born.
Pentagon officials determined that one giant C-130 Hercules cargo plane could carry $2.4 billion in shrink-wrapped bricks of $100 bills. They sent an initial full planeload of cash, followed by 20 other flights to Iraq by May 2004 in a $12-billion haul that U.S. officials believe to be the biggest international cash airlift of all time.
This month, the Pentagon and the Iraqi government are finally closing the books on the program that handled all those Benjamins. But despite years of audits and investigations, U.S. Defense officials still cannot say what happened to $6.6 billion in cash � enough to run the Los Angeles Unified School District or the Chicago Public Schools for a year, among many other things.
For the first time, federal auditors are suggesting that some or all of the cash may have been stolen, not just mislaid in an accounting error. Stuart Bowen, special inspector general for Iraq reconstruction, an office created by Congress, said the missing $6.6 billion may be "the largest theft of funds in national history." --------------------------------
FedGov is broke AND incompetent, any U.S. involvement in Syria will likely involve similar tales of fiscal tomfoolery.
Obama has already pissed away billion$ in Egypt that we know of, his half-brother is involved in investing/finance for the Muslim Brotherhood. I say he's setting up Barry Obama for a huge payoff when he leaves the White House, courtesy of the American taxpayer.
These stupid "limited strikes/engagements" have never worked. I gota agree with Ethan on this one. If we go in we have to take the place over, kill everybody we don't like and start again. This isn't going to happen, so why fool with it? How many more American lives are we willing to give up to try and save a people who don't want us to save them? I'm not willing to put anymore soldiers in harms way for some half-assed attempt to pick a side in a civil war we have no friends on either side of. America has the mightiest fighting force the world has ever seen, but we have a bumbling idiot as our commander and chief. Why anybody would want to enter a conflict with this guy incharge is beyond me.
Tried to defoliate Vietnam so our weapons designed for use in the Folda Gap could be more effective.
Let Sadam use CBW TWICE on Iranian troops and his own people w/o a response.
Tisked, tisked, over a previous use in Syria.
Turned a blind eye on reported use in Chechnya.
Are now opting for a toothless response stressing constraints on an already forewarned strike with limited assets under highly restrictive ROEs against a regime which, forewarned, has already hidden its most important assets and stock-piled films of dead kids we will cause.
You know you are on the wrong track when the French back you.
What did the US get out of its intervention in Bosnia? The undying gratitude of 'Islamisists' worldwide? Out of eventually chasing Sadam out?
I know very little about this particular situation because it is just more invented drama that goes on while our treasury is raped and robbed and we Americans sit around watching Football. All I know is we are way beyond just "out of money" and wars cost money. I also know that the last two have done very little other than cost us money and even more importantly, cost us people. I can't believe a regular poster here is even suggesting this. There are some assclowns and trolls, but a regular? The whole thing is beyond any consideration by anybody who is serious about having a decent country.
I despise John Kerry. Notwithstanding, it was his finest hour.
.
You really have gone over to the D-team....
Never thought I'd see the day...
Think of this for a second.. If this was such a 'world' problem, just where IS the 'world' in aiding us in this alleged action? Um - well, they, ah, took a powder...
And this: "...friends in the middle east...." We have no friends in the middle east.. THEY all want to see us DEAD...
Kerry's a horses azz - and looks the part with each passing day..
Your extrapolations get sillier by the day. I'm simply anti-chemical warfare under any and all circumstances. If unchecked, it will become the warfare option of choice...worldwide.
You hang in there though, Lee. It was nice to begin this day with a laugh.
To believe a chemical weapons cache will stay inside Syria is na�ve and foolish. How do you think they got to Syria?
If we know where the caches are being stored in Syria, regardless of who has possession, I'm for a limited strike against those arsenals and the entities in control of those type weapons.
These weapons have no valid role in warfare and they certainly shouldn't be in the possession of known terrorist entities and remain unchecked, regardless of whatever political party is in power.
I know very little about this particular situation because it is just more invented drama that goes on while our treasury is raped and robbed and we Americans sit around watching Football. All I know is we are way beyond just "out of money" and wars cost money. I also know that the last two have done very little other than cost us money and even more importantly, cost us people. I can't believe a regular poster here is even suggesting this. There are some assclowns and trolls, but a regular? The whole thing is beyond any consideration by anybody who is serious about having a decent country.
+1 Except it's perfectly consistent with Bob, if you've carefully read him over the years. No surprises here.
I don't think anyone is FOR the use of CBW weapons, and certainly none of us is for their use on civilians. I'll repeat though, that the administration has zero credibility, and there is no conclusive proof of who actually used the Sarin gas. Even if there were proof, the event still does not rise to the level where America needs to unilaterally be the world's punisher, the world's arbiter of who to spank. There is absolutely no compelling interest for our becoming an active participant in Syria's civil war. There is no National Security issue for us, no economic interest, no real diplomatic interest, and certainly no ethical interest. If the other Arab States are so willing to 'help' America that the will pay our expenses, then let us turn their offer down, and let them take out their own garbage.
No Bob, YOU are the one who's switched sides here. Either that, or someone else is posting under your handle..Something isn't right, you've got a doppelganger, or you were lying to us over these past few years.
Where's the real Bob? Who are you and what have you done with the "other Bob"?
We'll know I'm right if you bet on a football game, and win.
This problem is compounded by the fact that everybody involved are terrorists.
And it's hard to spill tears for terrorists, isn't that why it's easy to want to bomb them? But those half azzed bombing runs only create more problems.
No Bob, YOU are the one who's switched sides here. Either that, or someone else is posting under your handle..Something isn't right, you've got a doppelganger, or you were lying to us over these past few years.
Where's the real Bob? Who are you and what have you done with the "other Bob"?
We'll know I'm right if you bet on a football game, and win.
To believe a chemical weapons cache will stay inside Syria is na�ve and foolish. How do you think they got to Syria?
I'm with you on this point..
Quote
If we know where the caches are being stored in Syria, regardless of who has possession, I'm for a limited strike against those arsenals and the entities in control of those type weapons.
We're probably sitting on some very good SAT intel as to where the WMD caches are but since Zero is a master at telegraphing intentions I'll not be surprised if Assad forces have moved them into the city,then what?
This problem is compounded by the fact that everybody involved are terrorists.
And it's hard to spill tears for terrorists, isn't that why it's easy to want to bomb them? But those half azzed bombing runs only create more problems.
Good point. I'm a simple guy and have to refer to my own life experiences for judgement. An innocent family being killed in a home invasion is different than a gang fight and deserves a different response.
This problem is compounded by the fact that everybody involved are terrorists.
And it's hard to spill tears for terrorists, isn't that why it's easy to want to bomb them? But those half azzed bombing runs only create more problems.
Good point. I'm a simple guy and have to refer to my own life experiences for judgement. An innocent family being killed in a home invasion is different than a gang fight and deserves a different response.
My response wasn't meant as ridicule, it was meant to address the problems associated with half azzed bombing runs....if we go it needs to be to annihilate a combat zone. In it to win it so to speak.
The same people that are hammering Zimmerman for killing Trayvon are now telling us to stand our ground, on ground we don't own. It's laughable.
To believe a chemical weapons cache will stay inside Syria is na�ve and foolish. How do you think they got to Syria?
If we know where the caches are being stored in Syria, regardless of who has possession, I'm for a limited strike against those arsenals and the entities in control of those type weapons.
These weapons have no valid role in warfare and they certainly shouldn't be in the possession of known terrorist entities and remain unchecked, regardless of whatever political party is in power.
No argument there.. But these idiotic 'limited' strikes in Syria aren't going to stop any chem warfare.. They'll NEVER find 'em all and they'll no doubt end up in the 'wronger' of wrong hands..
BOTH sides hate the US.. Why get into this fracas?? And if you think Syria is the ONLY country with chem warfare capability, you're sucking on a big barrel of Kool-Aid.
We don't have the money - we don't have the will to win - we don't have the world behind us - we have NOTHIN' in this but an ego-trip by the AIC..
It's stupid.
But Congress, in the gutless/ball-less will to stand up to the AIC, will no DOUBT give the okey-dokey to this 'limited action'..
WHO is obligated to respond is also a valid question.
===============
Agreed. It can't go completely unchecked though, imo.
If left unchecked, a monumental disaster is likely to occur, regardless of what faction is actually in control of the Sarin.
I'm curious...if Sarin was loaded onto two missiles or whatever other means of introduction and were successfully detonated in a city of 100K or greater, what is a conservative estimate of the potential death toll?
Maybe this G20 (or whatever) thing will shed some light. I believe that the rest of the world recognizes Obama for the fool that he is and wants to see the big guy get knocked off the hill.
WHO is obligated to respond is also a valid question.
===============
Agreed. It can't go completely unchecked though, imo.
If left unchecked, a monumental disaster is likely to occur, regardless of what faction is actually in control of the Sarin.
I'm curious...if Sarin was loaded onto two missiles or whatever other means of introduction and were successfully detonated in a city of 100K or greater, what is a conservative estimate of the potential death toll?
It would be a start[better have many, many virgins ready]
Maybe this G20 (or whatever) thing will shed some light. I believe that the rest of the world recognizes Obama for the fool that he is and wants to see the big guy get knocked off the hill.
The sheen is gone. Putin nailed this empty suit a long time ago. Hopefully the R's won't throw gas on this fire.
Syria saber rattling is making Obamacare look good. And we know that's a disaster.
I've been pondering this a while and come to the conclusion that the biggest problem is that the President of the United States and his staff are utterly untrustworthy, by us, or anybody else.
WHO is obligated to respond is also a valid question.
===============
Agreed. It can't go completely unchecked though, imo.
If left unchecked, a monumental disaster is likely to occur, regardless of what faction is actually in control of the Sarin.
I'm curious...if Sarin was loaded onto two missiles or whatever other means of introduction and were successfully detonated in a city of 100K or greater, what is a conservative estimate of the potential death toll?
Ask Israel. They've been living with terrorism for years.
WHO is obligated to respond is also a valid question.
===============
Agreed. It can't go completely unchecked though, imo.
If left unchecked, a monumental disaster is likely to occur, regardless of what faction is actually in control of the Sarin.
I'm curious...if Sarin was loaded onto two missiles or whatever other means of introduction and were successfully detonated in a city of 100K or greater, what is a conservative estimate of the potential death toll?
Fellows, as long as the Arab/Muslims are killing one another I don't see there's a problem.
Jim
as cold as that sentiment may seem to some Jim, it is a position that has a lot going for it. Both sides in the conflict are our enemies. Assad and the 'opposition' both wish us harm, have DONE us harm, and will continue to do us harm. A pox on them all.
Bob's argument is the singular assumption that we are the world's police force and must step in when no one else can or will. Pres Bush ran against this line of thinking in 2000 and many of us here enthusiastically voted for him based upon the fact that we are not the world's police force nor can we afford to constantly get drug into conflicts for which there is little or no public support stateside.
The wisdom of the FFs & the Constitutional process for declaring war assumes that politicians and the ruling class will get us into conflicts for which the people are not supportive. If we follow that process it'll clearly point the way as to what we should and should not do.
This is one we clearly should NOT get involved in.
WHO is obligated to respond is also a valid question.
===============
Agreed. It can't go completely unchecked though, imo.
If left unchecked, a monumental disaster is likely to occur, regardless of what faction is actually in control of the Sarin.
I'm curious...if Sarin was loaded onto two missiles or whatever other means of introduction and were successfully detonated in a city of 100K or greater, what is a conservative estimate of the potential death toll?
I don't know the answer to that. But I'm guessing that any estimate could be in error by an order of magnitude, due to all the variables.
But........ it was I.E.D.'s that were the most effective weapon against us in Iraq, NOT the stuff provided by arms dealers.
By the same token,"Kitchen sarin" produced in Mexico , or even here, deployed by our "homegrown Islamic terrorists" in Mid America is a viable threat and I don't get a real secure feeling relying on our spy agencies to pick up on it.
Every nation's power is limited.
Good leaders recognize that and assign priorities accordingly.
We only police little two bit dictator's that don't have nukes. That way we get to set the terms of when and where the "war" will start and end, plus we've effectively ignored genocide in Africa for decades, ethnic cleansing in the Eastern Block and host of atrocities in Latin America.
So forget about this idea we are the world's police. We're nothing more than selective enforcement. We're a bully and once the two bit dictator gets a nuke, we wring our hands and whine to the U.N. to do something. Its why we continually [bleep] with Iran while North Korea gets away with test launching missiles at Hawaii.
Actually we're not a bully, we're a puppet getting our strings pulled.
"Limited warfare" is a corrupt and ineffective policy which does more harm to the instigator than target.
Problem with Syria as far as I can see is a) we don't know who gassed who, and b) there is no clear objective defined for military action, and c) action on our part could precipitate WWIII.
BUSH Sr understood the proper application of military force when negotiations failed. Define the objective and get out of the military's way. Junior didn't learn the lesson and gave us the longest war of our history and has accomplished nothing. Obama continues the policy as if he is a kid in a toy store.
even more disturbing is we're broke and can afford to go into this little pisspot and wipe it out.
Maybe a good rule of thumb is - if it isn't worth raising taxes over, then stay home.
Let John Kerry and Obama get up there and say we're going to implement a 2% tax increase to cover the cost of Syria and see how Congress falls in line with them then.
Our options in Syria at this point boil down to a series of bad choices. Doing nothing is a bad choice, doing something is also a bad choice, no matter what we do we lose. IMO carefully weighing our options and not rushing to "do something" is our best course of action.
Pres Bush ran against this line of thinking in 2000 and many of us here enthusiastically voted for him based upon the fact that we are not the world's police force nor can we afford to constantly get drug into conflicts for which there is little or no public support stateside.
Absolutely correct. That was the main point of enthusiasm for me when Bush ran the first time.
Furthermore, the Founders intentionally placed the war power with Congress, not the executive, since it was well understood by them, based on the unvaried track-record of history, that an executive empowered to involve a nation in war (apart from repelling invaders from its borders and acts of immediate self defense by naval forces, or same enforcing the laws of the open seas) was a sure formula for constant foreign adventurism, roaming about the globe under the pretext of seeking dragons to slay, but in reality for the purpose of advancing corruption at the behest of powerfully positioned elites, and that at the expense of The People's prosperity and liberty, not to mention the lives of well-motivated but misguided youth who fight and die for it. Thus this power in the US was placed exclusively in the hands of that national body most representative of, and responsive to, the will of the people at large and to the several states of the Union, i.e., Congress.
Our options in Syria at this point boil down to a series of bad choices. Doing nothing is a bad choice, doing something is also a bad choice, no matter what we do we lose. IMO carefully weighing our options and not rushing to "do something" is our best course of action.
No. Backing down is the only option. Somebody needs to tell Mr. President to sit down and shut the [bleep] up. He's so far out of his league we could wake up tomorrow and be in WW-[bleep]'-III. This ain't community organizing. This is one red [bleep] hair from war.
Kerry can't even get a guy in an actual uniform to help him out. That's a huge clue.
Our options in Syria at this point boil down to a series of bad choices. Doing nothing is a bad choice, doing something is also a bad choice, no matter what we do we lose. IMO carefully weighing our options and not rushing to "do something" is our best course of action.
No. Backing down is the only option. Somebody needs to tell Mr. President to sit down and shut the [bleep] up. He's so far out of his league we could wake up tomorrow and be in WW-[bleep]'-III. This ain't community organizing. This is one red [bleep] hair from war.
Kerry can't even get a guy in an actual uniform to help him out. That's a huge clue.
Travis
BINGO! [wish I knew how to make them great big letters]
In fact, Travis so nailed it that I'm just gonna shut up and read awhile.
Our options in Syria at this point boil down to a series of bad choices. Doing nothing is a bad choice, doing something is also a bad choice, no matter what we do we lose. IMO carefully weighing our options and not rushing to "do something" is our best course of action.
No. Backing down is the only option. Somebody needs to tell Mr. President to sit down and shut the [bleep] up. He's so far out of his league we could wake up tomorrow and be in WW-[bleep]'-III. This ain't community organizing. This is one red [bleep] hair from war.
Kerry can't even get a guy in an actual uniform to help him out. That's a huge clue.
Travis
If Congress feels the need to pass some sort of resolution to take military action it should be conditional on UN approval.
If Congress feels the need to pass some sort of resolution to take action it should be conditional on UN approval.
Congress should be telling the President to STFU. And that's the only thing Congress should be doing right now.
First he gives TWO "red line" speeches. The response out of Syria was GFY. Then those yellow toothed [bleep] that live on that POS island (I forget their names) told him to GFH. Now, Putin (allegedly) is telling him to not only GFH, but to SHD as well.
My Senators are about as worthless as McCain, they take turns kissing his and Graham's ass. My congressman used to be the same way toward Boehner, but is now starting to speak out against him. He gave a speech yesterday and said he has gotten the message over Syria loud and clear. Not no but HELL NO. South MS has a large military population and Palazzo said most of the calls to his office were from them.
who are we helping to win? both sides in this sectarian civil war are our enemies. screw being noble, the US has no dog in this fight. we are not the worlds keeper, contrary to previous policy. we need to take care of business here in this country and watch from a distance what is going on in syria. let the UN do it fer chrissakes. thats what they are for.
Yep, at the highest levels, both parties are owned, lock stock and barrel, by organized world Jewry. Their power is exercised mainly through their control over interest and credit. Israel, though, is their special creation, and they'd like nothing more than to have it become the modern day seat of world empire. We're just about there today.
Neither. But if you want to be president of the U.S. you need to bash your head against it a few times, turns one into a subservient flaming gay cuckold.
Neither. But if you want to be president of the U.S. you need to bash your head against it a few times, turns one into a subservient flaming gay cuckold.
Tell us missy, what do you know of subservient flaming gay cuckolds?
Travis for GFY Czar.... Daily press briefings and in depth interviews coming to us live from the Oval Office (what's his name has been given his old crack pipe, a 5 gallon pail of rock and moved in with Reggi Love )....
First GFY memo, "Dear World, sorry about letting that other guy into this office. Obviously we have our own internal red lines to respond to so we are stepping back from the World stage for a few years to get our own house in order.
We wish the rest of the World well and hope that where ever needed you will also focus on doing the same. For those of you who wish to continue hating us.... Be aware the we are too broke to respond to any further aggression toward us with boots on the ground win their hearts and minds crap. You seriously do not want to know what our new policy on responding to terror attacks would be.
Well, I never thought I'd say this, but I'm not sure which is the more confused today...you or Issac.
Don't confuse "organized world Jewry" with "The Jews." It would be like confusing the "Cosa Nostra" with "The Italians." One is merely a subset of the other. Jews in general are no more responsible for the crimes of organized world Jewry than Italians are for the crimes of the Cosa Nostra.
I despise John Kerry. Notwithstanding, it was his finest hour.
Separate the politics from what is right and what makes this country noble.
First I have to tip my hat to you Bob. It takes a lot of gumption to take an unpopular stand as you have done. Plus you have tried to have a serious discussion about the morals and ethics of the issue while ignoring your own political bias. For that you ought to get a gold star if we actually had and of those things left around here.... the gold bugs have since stashed them in their bunkers.
I think the way the country has assessed the issue says a whole lot about the folks involved in this war. We really don't identify any of them as good guys. And it says a whole lot about our state of mind right now. Americans (at least IMvHO) are just war weary. But I think it also says a lot about the nation itself. This isn't the US of 1957. It isn't even the US of 9/10/01.
There's been too many scorched earth elections and political fights. There's been too many folks willing to tear down any trust and goodwill toward our government and its systems for short term political gain. There's been too much blatant hypocrisy from the far ends of the political spectrum which gets noticed only by those on the other end. There has also been a constant setting of one faction of Americans against another.
That aside I think you are also starting to see a realization of the limits to US military might. Both as to what it can accomplish and how the citizenry are willing to engage it. This is only the beginning my friend. We Americans are adamant in refusing to recognize that there are limits to anything. But in my opinion that is going to be a common theme of the next century, maybe the overriding theme. Consider this a first brush with the concept. We have a slew of them to contend with in the future... hell we are contending with them now.
Travis for GFY Czar.... Daily press briefings and in depth interviews coming to us live from the Oval Office (what's his name has been given his old crack pipe, a 5 gallon pail of rock and moved in with Reggi Love )....
First GFY memo, "Dear World, sorry about letting that other guy into this office. Obviously we have our own internal red lines to respond to so we are stepping back from the World stage for a few years to get our own house in order.
We wish the rest of the World well and hope that where ever needed you will also focus on doing the same. For those of you who wish to continue hating us.... Be aware the we are too broke to respond to any further aggression toward us with boots on the ground win their hearts and minds crap. You seriously do not want to know what our new policy on responding to terror attacks would be.
If he did , he didn't use enough gas or he wouldn't still be fighting the Rebels. If they all die at each others hands the world would be better off , this would be better than one US Soldier losing his life for a country that will never change.
I think the way the country has assessed the issue says a whole lot about the folks involved in this war. We really don't identify any of them as good guys.
Will
This is correct....the rest is absolute P gibberish.
Yep, at the highest levels, both parties are owned, lock stock and barrel, by organized world Jewry. Their power is exercised mainly through their control over interest and credit. Israel, though, is their special creation, and they'd like nothing more than to have it become the modern day seat of world empire. We're just about there today.
Beneath the clown suit beats the heart of a poisonous little cretin.
Yep, at the highest levels, both parties are owned, lock stock and barrel, by organized world Jewry. Their power is exercised mainly through their control over interest and credit. Israel, though, is their special creation, and they'd like nothing more than to have it become the modern day seat of world empire. We're just about there today.
Beneath the clown suit beats the heart of a poisonous little cretin.
No offense was intended towards you or your people. Similarly, when I criticize the actions of the Cosa Nostra, Italians here at the Fire (or those of Italian ancestry) should not feel that I am targeting them.
" There's been too much blatant hypocrisy from the far ends of the political spectrum which gets noticed only by those on the other end."
You make a common mistake [apparently] in assuming that the correct viewpoint on an issue will usually be found in the "middle".
That's just plain wrong. Even Jesus warned against "lukewarm".
If you would learn the essence of a thing, study its excess and its absence, not the "norm". You learn about rain in the Sahara and the Mekong Delta, not Iowa.
Islam can either co-exist with non-muslims, or it cannot. No middle ground to be found if history is to be believed.
If the rest of the world is to be made safe from it, its adherents must be destroyed.
Since adherence to it is a matter of choice, there is nothing immoral about destroying its adherents.
I agree with Isaac. Bombing Syria is indeed really about who we are, just like the SWAT raid on the mine in AK and all the NSA/DEA spying programs. We really ought to take a look at that��������
Our options in Syria at this point boil down to a series of bad choices. Doing nothing is a bad choice, doing something is also a bad choice, no matter what we do we lose. IMO carefully weighing our options and not rushing to "do something" is our best course of action.
No. Backing down is the only option. Somebody needs to tell Mr. President to sit down and shut the [bleep] up. He's so far out of his league we could wake up tomorrow and be in WW-[bleep]'-III. This ain't community organizing. This is one red [bleep] hair from war.
Kerry can't even get a guy in an actual uniform to help him out. That's a huge clue.
Travis
I've been having fun with the hijacked parts ( pics of dead critters, fishing trips and such) of this thread up 'til now.
Travis dude, you got that part right. And it sure scares the s--t outa me. I know there's a number of us on the 'fire of a "certain age" who remember ducking under desks at school, bomb shelters in the neighbors' backyards, Cuban missile crisis, etc. I've read most of the posts on this thread and there's not much mention of two big players, Russia and China. I've seen comments about staying out and letting the UN deal with it. Not gonna happen with the veto power invested in those two countries. And really, if we get dragged into something involving Israel (would we be willing to let that state perish?), our "friends" in the Arabian peninsula, our NATO ally Turkey, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Jordan (not much being said about those folks lately) and all the others, does anyone think that Russia and China will want to stay out. What about their "national" interests in the middle east? Do we expect them to stay out of the fray instead of hoping to get on the "winning" side so they can get their share of the spoils (read that as resources in the area, oil, SUEZ canal...)
There's really not a "moral" argument about the use of certain weapons going on here. This is, in the end, all about power, who's got it, and who can we keep from getting it. I live most of the year near what was a very large chem weapons storage facility. AS far as I know they just incinerated "the last" of it recently, s--t that has been stored there for maybe 80 years or so on the long end. Why did we have to keep them that long? Crap, we have enough nukes to basically incinerate the world, who needs gas. Sure makes us look good to have gotten rid of that stuff though. What "moral" argument can we use when we have been holding on to stuff for that long "just in case?".
Maybe Kerry can't get a uniform to help him out because this has no good endpoint from a military perspective. Not many guys I know want to get in a fight they know they can't win. (well unless they're drunk or REALLY stupid, or REALLY DRUNK AND REALLY STUPID).
Travis, I think you might actually be right (DON"T let it go to your head. We need you a little bit humble so we can get a few of those MT sheeple to vote for you in 2016 ;)). Backing down is the only viable option right now.
As a male, American, never give up kinda' guy it hurts to say it. American politicians, take your f'n lumps, eat some crow, say you had some funny mushrooms in your soup, lie like you always do, whatever you have to do. Listen to the American public, Man Up and back the f' down. Like an old dog that got his hackles up and told the pups "fight it out among yourselves , I'm going over here to nap for a bit", but I can still get up and kick some ass if ya'll make too much noise.
Now, everyone have a nice day. I think I'm going to try making my first Trailboss loads for my 25-20. (and no, it's not Ackley Improved.......... yet :D)
Big OOPS, thought I was over in the other Syria thread. Must need more coffee!!! For those that haven't seen that one, Mr Obama is not right!
Well, I never thought I'd say this, but I'm not sure which is the more confused today...you or Issac.
Don't confuse "organized world Jewry" with "The Jews." It would be like confusing the "Cosa Nostra" with "The Italians." One is merely a subset of the other. Jews in general are no more responsible for the crimes of organized world Jewry than Italians are for the crimes of the Cosa Nostra.
I've been pondering this a while and come to the conclusion that the biggest problem is that the President of the United States and his staff are utterly untrustworthy, by us, or anybody else.
No doubt. The second biggest problem, and this one runs a very close second, is the congressional leadership has the duty, but no courage, to do a thing about it despite numberous and significant opportunities to rectify the problem. This make us all look bad.
The road to Tehran runs through Damascus, BELIEVE IT. Congress has been bought and sold, they answer to AIPAC/Israel, the will of the American people matters not one whit to them. Name ONE congresscritter in either chamber that defies AIPAC/Israel: can't because that American legislator who is loyal to America FIRST doesn't exist since Ron Paul retired.
Well, I never thought I'd say this, but I'm not sure which is the more confused today...you or Issac.
Don't confuse "organized world Jewry" with "The Jews." It would be like confusing the "Cosa Nostra" with "The Italians." One is merely a subset of the other. Jews in general are no more responsible for the crimes of organized world Jewry than Italians are for the crimes of the Cosa Nostra.
you truly ARE a lunatic Chris.
Go ahead and make your argument. Which part of what I said is mistaken and why? Ought a condemnation of the Italian "Mob" be interpreted as a condemnation of the Italian people in general?? Or are you suggesting there is no Italian Mafia? Or are you suggesting that there's no such thing as organized Jewry?
Travis for GFY Czar.... Daily press briefings and in depth interviews coming to us live from the Oval Office (what's his name has been given his old crack pipe, a 5 gallon pail of rock and moved in with Reggi Love )....
First GFY memo, "Dear World, sorry about letting that other guy into this office. Obviously we have our own internal red lines to respond to so we are stepping back from the World stage for a few years to get our own house in order.
We wish the rest of the World well and hope that where ever needed you will also focus on doing the same. For those of you who wish to continue hating us.... Be aware the we are too broke to respond to any further aggression toward us with boots on the ground win their hearts and minds crap. You seriously do not want to know what our new policy on responding to terror attacks would be.
Have a really nice day and as always, GFY.".
Got me a Press Secretary!
Hope you like to drink!
Travis
I'd volunteer, but I'd piss you off 'cause I can use my words, too many of them for you most times, not just acronyms like GFY.
Oh, and I can't live up to the "Hope you like to drink!" part. I liked it so much I had to give it up (see earlier post about "REALLY DRUNK AND REALLY STUPID", I know how that feels ) I know, sad, really sad, but the 'fire is better off for it (certain beer and liquor companies are not better off, but I'd be willing to bet someone has stepped in to TRY to fill my shoes). Can you imagine the "words" that would come out of this keyboard if I was still a drinkin' man? I know of at least one poster whos late night comments are unintelligible but at least they're short, not like mine.
However, should you find a suitable candidate who sometimes stumbles at the microphone with "uh, uh, uh" type comments, I can always write a few lines for him/her/it (your dog looks like it might do a better job than some of the shills I've seen). I even know where the online dictionaries and thesauruses are (like that thesauruses word) so I can throw in some really big confusing words to confound your constituents. That will make them want more of the free beer/liquor/pulque/tiswin/moonshine you will be providing before, during, and after your election good sir. They will be more likely to remember you at the polls that way. "hey, he's the dude with the free booze, vote for him."
Of course, this will necessitate finding a good shyster to make sure you can use campaign contributions to purchase said alcoholic refreshments. Or perhaps a good accountant to hide those purchases. Of course, the lawyer will still be needed to make sure you have plausible deniability re: the actions of your accountant. That would be OK because your job will be to hire as many of your cronies as you can. Yes, you can still make "shrinking the Govt. payroll" a campaign pledge, it just doesn't hold true to your friends, especially those you know from the 'fire. You can always cut the "little people's" jobs to make room for more cronies.
Ingwe can be in charge of decorating, "leopard print" in the Oval Office, right down to the curtains and staff underwear. And you could put him in charge of finding a new "official" round for our military weapons. Something in .270 might be suitable.
Good luck with the campaign. Please feel free to PM me if you need any more advice. Always willing to be of service and give you the proper respect a guy like you deserves.
(I believe I typed this with our secret encrypted system so the present govt. can't read it. I hear they monitor this forum, particularly the hunters campfire portion. They might start shaking in their boots right now, all of them, Dems, Repubs, Greenies, Commies etc. News of your candidacy might actually get them to agree on something. Like a preemptive strike against our budding movement. That could lead to them declaring a national emergency and cutting off the supply of booze and loose women in MT and neighboring states. Oh the horror! We do have that encryption running on the 'fire, don't we? If not, perhaps you could ask nicely as your hard work achieved the goal of a Combination guns thread, so nice to have that now.)
Now I really am going to get to the can of Trailboss and the reloading press. Might even use the string trimmer in the yard today.
Yep, at the highest levels, both parties are owned, lock stock and barrel, by organized world Jewry. Their power is exercised mainly through their control over interest and credit. Israel, though, is their special creation, and they'd like nothing more than to have it become the modern day seat of world empire. We're just about there today.
Beneath the clown suit beats the heart of a poisonous little cretin.
No offense was intended towards you or your people. Similarly, when I criticize the actions of the Cosa Nostra, Italians here at the Fire (or those of Italian ancestry) should not feel that I am targeting them.
Unless your people are international bankers, in which case.....
Geez, TRH, your blanket characterizations will most certainly be your undoing, Ehyeh willing....
Neither. But if you want to be president of the U.S. you need to bash your head against it a few times, turns one into a subservient flaming gay cuckold.
Geez, TRH, your blanket characterizations will most certainly be your undoing, Ehyeh willing....
You must be going out of your way to misinterpret my words. Just as there are all kinds of Italians, good, bad, and indifferent, the same applies to the Jewish people. Are you actually suggesting, though, that there is no Cosa Nostra? Are you suggesting there's no organized world Jewry? Wasn't Bolshevism one expression of organized world Jewry? Wasn't the Russian Revolution (resulting in the murders of tens of millions of innocent people) one of their proudest accomplishments? Isn't the imposition of multiculturalism one of the proud accomplishments of organized world Jewry throughout Europe and the United States, i.e., Western nations? Isn't the modern state calling itself Israel one of the proudest accomplishments of organized world Jewry, in that case under the name of Zionism?
Were all Jews involved in any of these movements? Of course not. I'd bet a small minority only, in fact, but the organization behind all these "accomplishments" possessed an unmistakable Jewish identity. Every bit as much as the "accomplishments" of the Cosa Nostra possess an unmistakable Italian identity.
Yep, at the highest levels, both parties are owned, lock stock and barrel, by organized world Jewry. Their power is exercised mainly through their control over interest and credit. Israel, though, is their special creation, and they'd like nothing more than to have it become the modern day seat of world empire. We're just about there today.
Beneath the clown suit beats the heart of a poisonous little cretin.
No offense was intended towards you or your people. Similarly, when I criticize the actions of the Cosa Nostra, Italians here at the Fire (or those of Italian ancestry) should not feel that I am targeting them.
Great offense (intended or not) is inherent to the organized world Jewry conspiracy theories.
Clever use of such code words to promote this myth speaks for itself.
Those conspiracy theorists who believe the myth that Jews control world banking, Wall Street, and the U.S. Federal Reserve System may not see themselves as anti-Semitic.
But they are and should scoot right over to Stormfront to join their friends.
What world famous men said about the Jews - Stormfront  www.stormfront.org/jewish/antisemite.html‎ The Jews are the only people in the world who have found hostility in every country in ... They are the only racial group totally organized to work for political .... by the Jews to hide their ECONOMIC-POLITICAL conspiracy for complete world ...
Many would have that the definition of an antisemite is one who is hated by the Jews. This seems to be the definition that you favor, in which case I may well be one, but I don't have any way of knowing whether or not Jews hate me. The real definition, however, if it is to have any real value at all, is one who hates people because they are Jews. According to this definition I am definitely not an antisemite, as I hate no one based on any factor other than what sort of person he is as an individual.
Maybe now is a good time to revisit the Paul Wolfowitz domino theory of the middle east and what was said in response to it in 2003 -----------------------------
" The "Domino Theory" of Paul Wolfowitz Deputy Defense Minister is being put into practice: Following Iraq, all authoritarian regimes in the Middle East will collapse one after the other, representative system of government will spread and anger towards USA will cease.
American analyst Graham Fuller well known by Turkish public had mentioned this theory in his article published months ago with a quite different point of view:
The intervention of Bush will demolish the status quo in the Middle East. Spoiling of the stability may be what the region is exactly looking for, because stability provided by the hands of the despots is the instability itself. Those who think that the intervention will serve USA's interests are very much mistaken. The intervention will reinforce the enmity towards USA and will start a political earthquake which will destroy the kings, leaders and life-time presidents who have so far stood with USA's support. In the short term, radical or liberal Islamists will stand to gain. Democracy will not immediately come but the political change will pave the way for the region to adapt to the realities of the time"
Well, we already know how the blacks feel about your presence. Have the Jews tried to run your sorry ass out of town, as well.
Don't blame them...they simply want to increase their real estate values.
Justice would be some 89 year old Jewish lady being chauffeured to bingo by her 17 year old black neighbor in her Escalade hobbling TRH and rather than watch him suffer, she gives her driver a finely crafted cocobolo cane to euthanize him.
just wrap him on the noggin, Leroy. I hate to see them cry like that
Well, I never thought I'd say this, but I'm not sure which is the more confused today...you or Issac.
Don't confuse "organized world Jewry" with "The Jews." It would be like confusing the "Cosa Nostra" with "The Italians." One is merely a subset of the other. Jews in general are no more responsible for the crimes of organized world Jewry than Italians are for the crimes of the Cosa Nostra.
you truly ARE a lunatic Chris.
Go ahead and make your argument. Which part of what I said is mistaken and why? Ought a condemnation of the Italian "Mob" be interpreted as a condemnation of the Italian people in general?? Or are you suggesting there is no Italian Mafia? Or are you suggesting that there's no such thing as organized Jewry?
sadly, there is no place for 'give and take' with this. There some folks, and some issues, that are not worth the time to have a discussion with, or about.
sadly, there is no place for 'give and take' with this. There some folks, and some issues, that are not worth the time to have a discussion with, or about.
Does this mean that you're finally going to shut the fug up?
sadly, there is no place for 'give and take' with this. There some folks, and some issues, that are not worth the time to have a discussion with, or about.
In other words, you got nothing. Thanks. About what I figured.
Yep, at the highest levels, both parties are owned, lock stock and barrel, by organized world Jewry. Their power is exercised mainly through their control over interest and credit. Israel, though, is their special creation, and they'd like nothing more than to have it become the modern day seat of world empire. We're just about there today.
Beneath the clown suit beats the heart of a poisonous little cretin.
No offense was intended towards you or your people. Similarly, when I criticize the actions of the Cosa Nostra, Italians here at the Fire (or those of Italian ancestry) should not feel that I am targeting them.
Unless your people are international bankers, in which case.....
My "people" would be Catholic (lapsed) on my father's side and Episcopalian (indifferent) on my mother's. The idiot has apparently decided I'm a Jew because I won't give him a free pass on his Jew-bashing.
He'll be back in a moment to explain the difference between "Jews", "Organized World Jewry" and "Talmadic Jews." Ghostinthemachine will give him a +1.
I've been pondering this a while and come to the conclusion that the biggest problem is that the President of the United States and his staff are utterly untrustworthy, by us, or anybody else.
No doubt. The second biggest problem, and this one runs a very close second, is the congressional leadership has the duty, but no courage, to do a thing about it despite numberous and significant opportunities to rectify the problem. This make us all look bad.
Don't worry, these guys have your foreign and domestic interest at heart.
Senate (11 Democrats, 1 Independent)
Michael Bennet (D-CO) Richard Blumenthal (D-CT) Barbara Boxer (D-CA) Benjamin Cardin (D-MD) Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) Al Franken (D-MN) Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) Carl Levin (D-MI) Brian Schatz (D-HI) Bernard Sanders (I-VT) Charles Schumer (D-NY) Ron Wyden (D-OR)
House (1 Republican, 21 Democrats)
Eric Cantor (R-VA) David Cicilline (D-RI) Stephen Cohen (D-TN) Susan Davis (D-CA) Ted Deutch (D-FL) Eliot Engel (D-NY) Lois Frankel (D-FL)* Alan Grayson (D-FL)* Steve Israel (D-NY) Sander Levin (D-MI) Alan Lowenthal (D-CA)* Nita Lowey (D-NY) Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) Jared Polis (D-CO) Jan Schakowsky (D-IL) Adam Schiff (D-CA) Brad Schneider (D-IL)* Allyson Schwartz (D-PA) Brad Sherman (D-CA) Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-FL) Henry Waxman (D-CA) John Yarmuth (D-KY)
He'll be back in a moment to explain the difference between "Jews", "Organized World Jewry" and "Talmadic Jews." Ghostinthemachine will give him a +1.
I believe I've already explained the first two, but as for Talmudic Jews, those were and are the descendents of the Jews who rejected their prophesied Messiah, i.e., Jesus. This religion bears very little connection to that practiced by the Jewish Patriarchs, being in fact its near antithesis. It was established as a formalized rejection of Jesus as the Messiah, thus damning all its adherents, absent individual conversion to Christ during life.
I don�t get it. If the Jews are so all powerful, sneaky, and malevolent, how do you guys get away with hating on them so publically? Seems like they�d be sending some ninja Jew assassins after ya.
I don�t get it. If the Jews are so all powerful, sneaky, and malevolent, how do you guys get away with hating on them so publically? Seems like they�d be sending some ninja Jew assassins after ya.
For all their power, they have yet to find a way through tinfoil.
I don�t get it. If the Jews are so all powerful, sneaky, and malevolent, how do you guys get away with hating on them so publically? Seems like they�d be sending some ninja Jew assassins after ya.
They're in Congress' face trying to get America involved in a war that 91% of Americans want no part of.
Not likely, Bristoe. That does not mean you and I will ever chat though. You are a pfugging loony tunes as well
That from you is almost as big a badge of honor as from Bob. Bristoe & TRH must be doing/saying something right. I'll pay closer attention, but I know you can't see this since you have me on ignore .
Which is better? To be called "a pfugging loony tunes" or to be on ignore TRH & Bristoe?
Some of you folks insist on remaining ignorant of the Israeli lobby's influence on Congress,...but you can bet your ass that those members of Congress who are sweating out a vote to get America involved in a war that Americans don't want,..but that the Israeli lobby does,..aren't ignorant of it.
I don�t get it. If the Jews are so all powerful, sneaky, and malevolent, how do you guys get away with hating on them so publically? Seems like they�d be sending some ninja Jew assassins after ya.
I don't always agree with all the anti-Jew sentiment related here. I certainly don't hate the Jews nor the individual Jew. That said, some of y'all are astounding...and I mean no personal offense to you billhilly. The things some say in support of the Jews seem to come right from some TV preacher. All the stuff is positive instead of looking at the behavior of the Jews in the Bible. Yes, they are God's chosen. I believe that. But the Jews have done great evil over the years including their crowning achievement in the evil arena, setting up, ratting out and illegally getting our Savior put to death. It was a Jew who killed all the male children in order to stop the coming of the Messiah. Jews were predominately the ones who goaded various governments into persecuting the early Christians. Earlier yet, look at the Jews who took up the various pagan religions and sacrificed their own children to satanic deities.
So while the Jews should be respected and given their due as God's chosen, I'm not sure that they should run our government and its policies unchecked.
I don�t get it. If the Jews are so all powerful, sneaky, and malevolent, how do you guys get away with hating on them so publically? Seems like they�d be sending some ninja Jew assassins after ya.
Israel is a socialist country not a religion. Best use the IRS, FBI, NSA, ....
So while the Jews should be respected and given their due as God's chosen, I'm not sure that they should run our government and its policies unchecked.
God's chosen people followed their Messiah.
The reason some didn't is explained very bluntly in the book of John,..8:42-8:47.
I don�t get it. If the Jews are so all powerful, sneaky, and malevolent, how do you guys get away with hating on them so publically? Seems like they�d be sending some ninja Jew assassins after ya.
I don't always agree with all the anti-Jew sentiment related here. I certainly don't hate the Jews nor the individual Jew. That said, some of y'all are astounding...and I mean no personal offense to you billhilly. The things some say in support of the Jews seem to come right from some TV preacher. All the stuff is positive instead of looking at the behavior of the Jews in the Bible. Yes, they are God's chosen. I believe that. But the Jews have done great evil over the years including their crowning achievement in the evil arena, setting up, ratting out and illegally getting our Savior put to death. It was a Jew who killed all the male children in order to stop the coming of the Messiah. Jews were predominately the ones who goaded various governments into persecuting the early Christians. Earlier yet, look at the Jews who took up the various pagan religions and sacrificed their own children to satanic deities.
So while the Jews should be respected and given their due as God's chosen, I'm not sure that they should run our government and its policies unchecked.
Wasn�t that all part of the plan though? If the Jews had refused to play their part and hadn�t killed Jesus, that might have thrown a wrench in the deal no?
Former AIPAC official warns against US �retreat� from Israel�s �permanent reality�� conflict
The author of the famous statement that the Israel lobby is a �night flower,� former AIPAC official Steven J. Rosen at Foreign Policy explains how painful it is for the lobby to have to come into the sunlight on the Syria question. But the risk of silence was too great, losing a precedent for American military action against Iran:
President Barack Obama�s decision to make Congress decide on the course of the Syrian intervention has put the pro-Israel camp just where it did not want to be: openly advocating American military involvement in the volatile Middle East. It�s a calculation based on the lesser of two evils, the greater being risking Washington�s withdrawal from leadership on global security just as Iran crosses the nuclear threshold. No one has a greater stake in a strong United States � and the credibility of America�s deterrent capability � than Israel and the Jewish people. Indeed, many of the arguments that motivate the president�s opponents on Syria could also apply in the event that a military strike on Iran�s nuclear facilities becomes necessary.
Rosen is rightly fearful that the American public will see this as a war for Israel:
Yet this is a debate about the American national interest, and most American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) supporters do not want it to degenerate into a debate about Israel. Most agree with former Israeli Ambassador Itamar Rabinovitch that, �It�s bad for Israel [if] the average American gets it into his or her mind that boys are again sent to war for Israel.�
Paralyzed by these fears, Israel�s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and AIPAC supporters in Washington remained nearly silent for weeks,� [T]hey remained quiet even after Obama indicated that he was preparing a military strike. They did not want to be drawn into a political melee in a deeply divided Congress, risking strains in the bipartisan support for Israel that forms the bedrock of the U.S.-Israel relationship.
And though I often think our views at this site are marginalized, note how our drumbeat about the neoconservative and lobby support for the Iraq war has helped define the US discourse among Democrats, per Rosen:
�Israel�s detractors never cease asserting that the Iraq War was fought on Israel�s behalf, and that belief has eroded support for Israel on the left wing of the Democratic Party.
Rosen seeks to explain the power of the lobby, without talking about the money that it gives.
As a White House official told the New York Times, AIPAC is �the 800-pound gorilla in the room� because it has close relations with and access to a vast array of members on both sides of the aisle and on all sides of the debate. Simply put, the president has staked a lot of political capital on the gambit to sway Congress on his Syria plan � and he needs AIPAC�s support�.[T]he main thing is the mobilization of AIPAC�s vast network of trusted �key contacts� to speak privately with members they know well. Rosen is afraid of �isolationism� and �a wider U.S. retreat in the Middle East�. [that] would certainly undermine the campaign to prevent Iran from completing its nuclear weapons program.�
Apparently retreat is what most Americans want now. They don�t see any profit in our continuing engagement in unrest, one root of which is the lack of acceptance of Israel, an occupier.
Rosen is reduced to pro-Israel doctrine, it lives in a terrible neighborhood and doesn�t have security (Hey, who chose Palestine?):
Americans and Brits are far away, but Israel�s permanent reality is that it lives in that very bad neighborhood, faced with an existential crisis and a Syrian civil war in danger of spiraling out of control. That is why, while Americans are divided on the issue, an overwhelming majority of Israelis are hoping President Obama will prevail.
The permanent reality. So that means war after war after war. No wonder Americans are balking at this vision for the future. ----------------------------------------------
"the mobilization of AIPAC�s vast network of trusted �key contacts� to speak privately with members they know well."
Do us common gentiles have a 'vast network' who can 'speak privately with members they know well'??? This should wake up everybody on the Campfire that we've lost control of FedGov to a foreign lobbying front that puts Israel's interests ahead of America's with dead Americans (gentiles) to show as proof.
That damned [bleep] in the White House will plunge the northern hemisphere into WWIII if he isn't stopped, he needs to be impeached and removed from office immediately.
Assad had just about won the war and the only way he could lose would be if we went in against him. For that reason I find it impossible to believe that he would be stupid enough to use gas against the rebels. It had to have been the other side or AL Qaeda who used them in order to trick us into winning the war for them. Only Tyrant Obama would be stupid enough to do that.
I don�t get it. If the Jews are so all powerful, sneaky, and malevolent, how do you guys get away with hating on them so publically? Seems like they�d be sending some ninja Jew assassins after ya.
Speaking only for myself, I always make it a point not to speak of "The Jews," as that assumes they're a monolithic group, which they aren't. They differ from one another like members of any other ethnic group. Do you think I consider Italians malevolent, etc., because I acknowledge the existence of the Cosa Nostra?
As for organized world Jewry, that's a different topic from "The Jews." Yeah, they don't mean America well, nor the American people, and they have a gigantic degree of influence, but likely don't care much about any individual on the Internet who most appear to be identifying as a nutjob.
So while the Jews should be respected and given their due as God's chosen, I'm not sure that they should run our government and its policies unchecked.
God's chosen people followed their Messiah.
The reason some didn't is explained very bluntly in the book of John,..8:42-8:47.
Wasn�t that all part of the plan though? If the Jews had refused to play their part and hadn�t killed Jesus, that might have thrown a wrench in the deal no?
You are confusing something that was foreseen via God's omniscience with that which is desired by God. God knows what the devil will do as well, yet he doesn't desire evil to be done.
Looks like right now we have enough oil to last us awhile, why don't we just let em fight it out. Let em know as long as nobody [bleep] with Israel they can have all the civil war they want. We can check back in about ten years and see how they like being under the thumb of Russia or China. I'm betting it wont take to long to figure out it was better having the US around buying oil at inflated prices and trying to keep the wars at a low roar then to be at the mercy of a country like china who will be using "other methods" to get their oil at a price they like.
First I have to tip my hat to you Bob. It takes a lot of gumption to take an unpopular stand as you have done. Plus you have tried to have a serious discussion about the morals and ethics of the issue while ignoring your own political bias. For that you ought to get a gold star if we actually had and of those things left around here.... the gold bugs have since stashed them in their bunkers. smile ========
Just saw this Will. Thanks.
My identified friends here disagree with me plenty,; as I do them. Friends get to do that. I don't take it personally one bit that they defy logic and common sense. Who the Hell wants to have sustained chatter with someone who agrees with them all the time, anyways.
This is not one bit political for me; it's simply my personal belief. Chemical gas warfare on cities, nations etc. has no place in the warfare inventory. It needs to be eradicated at it's source, regardless of who's in possession.
This is black and white for me. I certainly care when folks I respect disagree with me but it will never be a basis upon which I'd change those beliefs. I leave the door open with them though for convincing, alternative thoughts.
Folks with little credibility and geared to spew HS without thinking are only as strong and persuasive as my computer mouse permits them to be. I give some extra attention to retards like hock and his ilk only because it's fun and I still enjoy defying my parents as far as teasing retards is concerned.
All things said, taking out babies and other innocents with chemical gases will never be condoned by me, regardless of the dems or GOP in power at the time. Now, it's happening and being left unchecked...and it will continue.
As I've stated before and again thereafter...take them out,regardless of who possesses the cowardly weapons. My friends, and my antagonists here, are incapable of changing my position.
First I have to tip my hat to you Bob. It takes a lot of gumption to take an unpopular stand as you have done. Plus you have tried to have a serious discussion about the morals and ethics of the issue while ignoring your own political bias. For that you ought to get a gold star if we actually had and of those things left around here.... the gold bugs have since stashed them in their bunkers. smile ========
Just saw this Will. Thanks.
My identified friends here disagree with me plenty,; as I do them. Friends get to do that. I don't take it personally one bit that they defy logic and common sense. Who the Hell wants to have sustained chatter with someone who agrees with them all the time, anyways.
This is not one bit political for me; it's simply my personal belief. Chemical gas warfare on cities, nations etc. has no place in the warfare inventory. It needs to be eradicated at it's source, regardless of who's in possession.
This is black and white for me. I certainly care when folks I respect disagree with me but it will never be a basis upon which I'd change those beliefs. I leave the door open with them though for convincing, alternative thoughts.
Folks with little credibility and geared to spew HS without thinking are only as strong and persuasive as my computer mouse permits them to be. I give some extra attention to retards like hock and his ilk only because it's fun and I still enjoy defying my parents as far as teasing retards is concerned.
All things said, taking out babies and other innocents with chemical gases will never be condoned by me, regardless of the dems or GOP in power at the time. Now, it's happening and being left unchecked...and it will continue.
As I've stated before and again thereafter...take them out,regardless of who possesses the cowardly weapons. My friends, and my antagonists here, are incapable of changing my position.
How enthusiastically are you encouraging your kids to join the military?
How enthusiastically are you encouraging your kids to join the military? =========
What a simple minded extrapolation that is. How much are you encouraging your kids to be a sell outs and lazy-assed whiners for the rest of their lives?
How enthusiastically are you encouraging your kids to join the military? =========
What a simple minded extrapolation that is. How much are you encouraging your kids to be a sell outs and lazy-assed whiners for the rest of their lives?
Oh,..more insults.
I'll take that to mean that you and yours are only going to offer words of encouragement to those who will actually have to participate in the wars you monger.
What takes place if Putin says...."If you strike Syria....you're striking Russia!"
Russia ain't 'done' yet!!
We can play hypothetical games all day long, but right now I find this one irrelevant because we have no business striking Syria to begin with.....
"we have no business striking Syria to begin with....."
Agreed! You know that...and I know that...as well as the majority of folks on this board whom have intellect enough to understand the seriousness of this situation, however it's quite apparent that our 'masters' in the US Congress don't have a scintilla of a clue as to where this could be headed!! As far as my question not being relevant I think it is highly so for I trust Putin to honor his word much moreso than that of Obama!! For years on end it has been the effort of the US government to live in peace with the Russian people....to 'befriend' them as the saying goes and in times past we have seen improvements in relations between the two countries made at certain times. We began to see this under their leadership of Mikhail Gorbachev with a softening of rhetoric betwix our countries. Now...the IDIOT that sits in the White House, for all practical purposes has taken a big dump on what could be called a 'silent pact' between our countries to have an agreement of 'live and let live'!! In effect Obama is doing a damn great job of letting his alligator mouth overload his hummingbird azz and in the process making the USA into an aggressor nation!!
I've been watching the Syria situation closely over the past couple weeks having spent last summer in Jordan (2012) and even e-mailed my Congressman and Senators with my opinion. This is really about more than just using chemical weapons on children though. It's about leverage. Obama has proven time and again he is no friend to Israel. A true politian, he is telling the world, "Assad is bad. I support my allies", while at the same time he knows by sending it through Congress for vote it is win-win for him. When the Senate (I am hoping) votes the measure down, Obama has essentially given Israel a GFY, which I really think was his intent all along. If, God help us, they vote for this so called limited action, the whole world is screwed.
Brush up on your Mandarin boys, cause with our current debt problems within our borders, our new national language with be that or Russian. What funds we do have now, will go to supporting generations of Syrians. I am by no means a pacificist, but this is a volitile situation that is a lose lose for Americans no matter how you cut it.
I also have to agree with the
"Travis in 2016" declaration above, but 2014 is an election year too, isn't it? Why wait?
Wasn�t that all part of the plan though? If the Jews had refused to play their part and hadn�t killed Jesus, that might have thrown a wrench in the deal no?
The Jews shoulda let Jesus off with a written reprimand. That would have made the Bible a short book. Of COURSE it was God's Plan. It was supposed to happen.
No offense taken amigo. You know full well that I welcome you to speak your mind with me. I respect your character.
Trust me, I'll be happy to get out of this industry. Actually I'm unemployed at the moment and looking at more stable commercial work if I can find it.
I replied to his question in context to the discussion that he and I were having on here. In the scope of that context I still find it irrelevant.
In the more broad scope of things that are possible to happen if Obama continues in the direction he's taking us then I'd agree that it's a very relevant question but outside of the scope of the conversation we were having at the time.
I try to remain in the world of reality and that is why I maintain that we don't belong in Syria.
My friend Bob, makes a very good argument based more in emotion than reality. Emotionally I stand with him. Chemical weapons are a scourge and ought to be routed wherever they are found. The reality is that they have been a part of the battle field since the dawn of warfare. They have always been here and they always will be. It's a grotesque reality.
If we had a leadership that we could trust to make a honest concerted effort to make the mission truly about destroying chemical WMD's then maybe I could be convinced that we should go get them.
The reality is that we don't have such a leadership. That would never be the mission. Operation Save The Babies is a pipe dream, not reality. No matter how much we wish it was otherwise.
Mulhern does make one point that goes to reinforce my own. America at large isn't interested in saving the innocent lives killed by the millions every year here in our own Country. Why would anyone believe that our leaders would care about babies elsewhere?
The truth is if we go to war its because Obama had an ego bigger than the planet.
All things said, taking out babies and other innocents with chemical gases will never be condoned by me, regardless of the dems or GOP in power at the time. Now, it's happening and being left unchecked...and it will continue.
As I've stated before and again thereafter...take them out,regardless of who possesses the cowardly weapons. My friends, and my antagonists here, are incapable of changing my position.
Your argument is flawed and I'll tell you why.
Kids getting shot, nuked, raped, sold as slaves only to be sodomized and beaten to death, is all "abhorrent." Has not warranted our intervening in many, many places, and for a long, long time.
To view things as subjectively as you are, is inherently wrong. If one observes the totality of the circumstances they will see our country is not in the best of shape. Our leadership is horrendous. Our military is strained. Our citizens are sick and [bleep] tired of the middle east.
An objective view of the big picture? The answer would be: [bleep], and no.
The Joint Chief seems to agree with me and President Obama does not. Big clue there...
I've been watching the Syria situation closely over the past couple weeks having spent last summer in Jordan (2012) and even e-mailed my Congressman and Senators with my opinion. This is really about more than just using chemical weapons on children though. It's about leverage. Obama has proven time and again he is no friend to Israel. A true politian, he is telling the world, "Assad is bad. I support my allies", while at the same time he knows by sending it through Congress for vote it is win-win for him. When the Senate (I am hoping) votes the measure down, Obama has essentially given Israel a GFY, which I really think was his intent all along. If, God help us, they vote for this so called limited action, the whole world is screwed.
Brush up on your Mandarin boys, cause with our current debt problems within our borders, our new national language with be that or Russian. What funds we do have now, will go to supporting generations of Syrians. I am by no means a pacificist, but this is a volitile situation that is a lose lose for Americans no matter how you cut it.
I also have to agree with the
"Travis in 2016" declaration above, but 2014 is an election year too, isn't it? Why wait?
Whats Syrian food like anyway? 2M refugees and growing, surely 250,000 sprinkled here and there throughout the US wont make a difference. I wonder how many Israel will be taking in?
49 years after the Gulf of Tonkin incident and we didn't learn a dang thing. We don't really know who gassed those people. The Russians say the rebels did it. The Russians told us the Boston bomber was a terrorist and we didn't listen. They are going to let us step into schitt and then point out we were told the truth and refused to listen. We screwed the Russians and they want pay back. We're going to do it all to ourselves. If we get involved and screw the pooch the world will think less of us then if we wait for good intel. We did nothing when Saddam gassed the Kurds and Clinton let the chemical weapons slip into Syria.
No offense taken amigo. You know full well that I welcome you to speak your mind with me. I respect your character.
Trust me, I'll be happy to get out of this industry. Actually I'm unemployed at the moment and looking at more stable commercial work if I can find it.
I replied to his question in context to the discussion that he and I were having on here. In the scope of that context I still find it irrelevant.
In the more broad scope of things that are possible to happen if Obama continues in the direction he's taking us then I'd agree that it's a very relevant question but outside of the scope of the conversation we were having at the time.
I try to remain in the world of reality and that is why I maintain that we don't belong in Syria.
My friend Bob, makes a very good argument based more in emotion than reality. Emotionally I stand with him. Chemical weapons are a scourge and ought to be routed wherever they are found. The reality is that they have been a part of the battle field since the dawn of warfare. They have always been here and they always will be. It's a grotesque reality.
If we had a leadership that we could trust to make a honest concerted effort to make the mission truly about destroying chemical WMD's then maybe I could be convinced that we should go get them.
The reality is that we don't have such a leadership. That would never be the mission. Operation Save The Babies is a pipe dream, not reality. No matter how much we wish it was otherwise.
Mulhern does make one point that goes to reinforce my own. America at large isn't interested in saving the innocent lives killed by the millions every year here in our own Country. Why would anyone believe that our leaders would care about babies elsewhere?
The truth is if we go to war its because Obama had an ego bigger than the planet.
Yup, and it got pretty grotesque a time or two.
Firing "Filth" over besieged Castle Walls always struck me as such. ...re-reading "The white Company" ( thanks Ed) one wonders what real "Knights" thought about THAT.
If these sonsabitches gave one sweet goddam about "National Interests", we'd be tracking down , and collecting the scalps of these bastids a LOT closer to home.
Whats Syrian food like anyway? 2M refugees and growing, surely 250,000 sprinkled here and there throughout the US wont make a difference. I wonder how many Israel will be taking in?
Laughin' my ass off... Kinda...
Christ knows we've grown a vagina, but does our president have to display it with this reckless abandon?
No offense taken amigo. You know full well that I welcome you to speak your mind with me. I respect your character.
Trust me, I'll be happy to get out of this industry. Actually I'm unemployed at the moment and looking at more stable commercial work if I can find it.
I replied to his question in context to the discussion that he and I were having on here. In the scope of that context I still find it irrelevant.
In the more broad scope of things that are possible to happen if Obama continues in the direction he's taking us then I'd agree that it's a very relevant question but outside of the scope of the conversation we were having at the time.
I try to remain in the world of reality and that is why I maintain that we don't belong in Syria.
My friend Bob, makes a very good argument based more in emotion than reality. Emotionally I stand with him. Chemical weapons are a scourge and ought to be routed wherever they are found. The reality is that they have been a part of the battle field since the dawn of warfare. They have always been here and they always will be. It's a grotesque reality.
If we had a leadership that we could trust to make a honest concerted effort to make the mission truly about destroying chemical WMD's then maybe I could be convinced that we should go get them.
The reality is that we don't have such a leadership. That would never be the mission. Operation Save The Babies is a pipe dream, not reality. No matter how much we wish it was otherwise.
Mulhern does make one point that goes to reinforce my own. America at large isn't interested in saving the innocent lives killed by the millions every year here in our own Country. Why would anyone believe that our leaders would care about babies elsewhere?
The truth is if we go to war its because Obama had an ego bigger than the planet.
Yup, and it got pretty grotesque a time or two.
Firing "Filth" over besieged Castle Walls always struck me as such. ...re-reading "The white Company" ( thanks Ed) one wonders what real "Knights" thought about THAT.
If these sonsabitches gave one sweet goddam about "National Interests", we'd be tracking down , and collecting the scalps of these bastids a LOT closer to home.
Whats Syrian food like anyway? 2M refugees and growing, surely 250,000 sprinkled here and there throughout the US wont make a difference. I wonder how many Israel will be taking in?
Laughin' my ass off... Kinda...
Christ knows we've grown a vagina, but does our president have to display it with HIS MOUTH.?
It seems to me Greg that it's political emotion that has many discounting the ramifications of leaving it unchecked.
I am a fact guy. Kids are dying, miserable deaths, because of Sarin gas. Facts can be emotive. Many here have executed folks long before their trial. The wanton, reckless disbursement of gas to kill 427 young children is a disgust unworthy of one sentence of justification.
It seems to me Greg that it's political emotion that has many discounting the ramifications of leaving it unchecked.
I am a fact guy. Kids are dying, miserable deaths, because of Sarin gas. Facts can be emotive. Many here have executed folks long before their trial. The wanton, reckless disbursement of gas to kill 427 young children is a disgust unworthy of one sentence of justification.
It seems to me Greg that it's political emotion that has many discounting the ramifications of leaving it unchecked.
I am a fact guy. Kids are dying, miserable deaths, because of Sarin gas. Facts can be emotive. Many here have executed folks long before their trial. The wanton, reckless disbursement of gas to kill 427 young children is a disgust unworthy of one sentence of justification.
I am as yet unconvinced the Assad regime used it, the rebels have been caught smuggling it and there is video of the rebels lobbing canisters at something. I think Al Quida is playing us.
I despise John Kerry. Notwithstanding, it was his finest hour.
Separate the politics from what is right and what makes this country noble.
Kerry is an idiot and has been showing his ass nonstop in his new job, for which he is as unqualified as his boss.
If Obama hadn't sent his moron VP to f up the status of forces agreement with Iraq, Iran wouldn't have been able to tranship material to Assad, and the US could have discreetly aided the non terrorist opposition when it might have meant something.
I wouldn't have much of a problem with a sudden strike designed to kill the entire Assad clan, but that's not what Obama wants to do.....this is an ineffectual media show to save what's left of his face. And a "look at that squirrel" deal to distract from the worsening economic numbers and the disaster of Obamacare.
Given the current state of play....and the grave questions about whether it was even Assad that popped the gas (why would he provoke the world when he's winning the war already?)....I say let our various enemies keep killing each other and don't interfere.
Nothing we do is going to improve the lot of the Syrians or contribute to US security or reputation in the region.
I've said from the get go that I am in favor of a limited strike on the chemical weapon arsenals and those in control/possession of them. I've not once stated a belief or position that any specific political party or Assad should be the designed target.
I've said from the get go that I am in favor of a limited strike on the chemical weapon arsenals and those in control/possession of them. I've not once stated a belief or position that any specific political party or Assad should be the designed target.
lolol,..and Obama didn't say anything about a red line.
Whats Syrian food like anyway? 2M refugees and growing, surely 250,000 sprinkled here and there throughout the US wont make a difference. I wonder how many Israel will be taking in?
How do you like lamb and/or chicken with yogurt sauce? Swarmas are pretty good. The bakalava is fantastic. I can only assume that Syria eats the same staples as Jordan.
All I can remember about the food from that area of the world.
The people seemed nice, but I really missed bacon. Probably ate it for a month when I got home.
I've said from the get go that I am in favor of a limited strike on the chemical weapon arsenals and those in control/possession of them. I've not once stated a belief or position that any specific political party or Assad should be the designed target.
Unless you want to disperse the chemicals you have to burn them in a hot fire. You don't just smash them up.
Quote
I've not once stated a belief or position that any specific political party or Assad should be the designed target.
So who do we kill? What if Assad has not used them? Do we hit the rebels? Both?
I've said from the get go that I am in favor of a limited strike on the chemical weapon arsenals and those in control/possession of them. I've not once stated a belief or position that any specific political party or Assad should be the designed target.
lolol,..and Obama didn't say anything about a red line.
Are you two related?
======
You're frikken obtuse or can't understand the written word.
Try some evening remedial reading comprehension classes. They're over relatively early and you can get home in time to show us what you didn't learn.
So who do we kill? What if Assad has not used them? Do we hit the rebels? Both? =========
For about the 6th time now, those in possession or control of the chemical weapon arsenals.
Our intel out of Syria is so bad, we don't have a clue who has what or where it is. you've got dueling PR campaigns being run by the "rebel" media and the Assad/FSB axis....but the only targets available and identifiable would be the Syrian military's assets. And it's no more than 50/50 they're the ones who used the Sarin.
I've said from the get go that I am in favor of a limited strike on the chemical weapon arsenals and those in control/possession of them. I've not once stated a belief or position that any specific political party or Assad should be the designed target.
How would the possession or control question ever get sorted out?
From the reading I have been doing sounds like Shreck is exactly correct about it takes an extremely hot fire under controled conditions to destroy chemical weapons....
This vile "human insecticide" is reported to be stored in many many different locations.... Mostly in or near population centers.... Lobbing in bombs where we think it might be could result in God only knows how many deaths down wind from the impact locations.....
I've said from the get go that I am in favor of a limited strike on the chemical weapon arsenals and those in control/possession of them. I've not once stated a belief or position that any specific political party or Assad should be the designed target.
Get me a list of names and addresses and we'll get right on that!! Even if the US had that list, I guarantee you the locations have been changed by now.
How would the possession or control question ever get sorted out?
From the reading I have been doing sounds like Shreck is exactly correct about it takes an extremely hot fire under controled conditions to destroy chemical weapons....
This vile "human insecticide" is reported to be stored in many many different locations.... Mostly in or near population centers.... Lobbing in bombs where we think it might be could result in God only knows how many deaths down wind from the impact locations.....
Oh, please don't bring reality into the picture. We're too busy being a nation of women.
From the reading I have been doing sounds like Shreck is exactly correct about it takes an extremely hot fire under controled conditions to destroy chemical weapons....
We don't know where they are. Of course, we will be told where they are.
And we will be told that we destroyed them.
Just where they were and just HOW we located and destroyed them will, of course, remain classified.
There will, of course, be pictures of dead children we killed with our missiles and bombs.
We will claim they are faked, but pay reparations anyway.
But we will be told to consider how many more little children will be spared another deadly gas attack because we, by God, did the noble thing and bombed SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE in Syria.
THAT's the best case scenario.
The reality will likely be much worse.
As soon as learn to spell "isolationist", I'm gonna sign up to be one.
So who do we kill? What if Assad has not used them? Do we hit the rebels? Both? =========
For about the 6th time now, those in possession or control of the chemical weapon arsenals.
That would include the United States. At least the pilots don't have to fly far.
======
Really shreck?? Stay on topic.
OK, Russia, North Korea? Sir, both sides in this civil war have gas. Both sides. And you just don't blow them up, even unmixed binary components as they are you will still disperse lots of unpleasantness. Unless you nuke them but that causes other problems. YOU JUST CAN'T BOMB THEM.
Obama, his Admin., and his lapdogs would have the American people believe they know little to nothing of what happened before, during, and after Benghazi.
Yet now they expect us to believe that he/they know EXACTLY what happened in Syria.... gmafb.
Obama, his Admin., and his lapdogs would have the American people believe they know little to nothing of what happened before, during, and after Benghazi.
Yet now they expect us to believe that he/they know EXACTLY what happened in Syria.... gmafb.
We don't know where they are. Of course, we will be told where they are.
And we will be told that we destroyed them.
Just where they were and just HOW we located and destroyed them will, of course, remain classified.
There will, of course, be pictures of dead children we killed with our missiles and bombs.
We will claim they are faked, but pay reparations anyway.
But we will be told to consider how many more little children will be spared another deadly gas attack because we, by God, did the noble thing and bombed SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE in Syria.
THAT's the best case scenario.
The reality will likely be much worse.
As soon as learn to spell "isolationist", I'm gonna sign up to be one.
It'll assuage American guilt and bad feelings for the children. Just like Obamacare, but more bombs and quicker, less painful deaths.
We just gotta do SOMETHING!
Honestly all hyperbole aside I agree with Bob completely in his concern for the disgustingly inhumane nature of these weapons and the even more appalling lack of respect for human life exhibited by those who are holding them. I don't believe that there is one poster in this thread who doesn't.
The immediate problem for me is two-fold:
1) these "limited" strikes ALWAYS exceed limitations, dragging us into broader conflict even under "good" leadership in DC. Complicated problems aren't solved by simple answers, as Shrek as pointed out
2) the sitting Pres couldn't properly extricate his head from his a$$ with a map and his cabinet to help him. There is no possible way that he could get this right even if Assad stood in the town square of Damascus surrounded by tanker trucks full of the stuff.
This is a recipe for disaster no matter what. Better someone else's children die than mine, cuz plenty are gonna die no matter what.
But I'm with Shreck in that it seems to me if you blow up the gas locations then you release all of it and then who knows how many are killed. I'm also a little disturbed by the possibility of awakening a sleeping giant on our own soil. You have to believe it's already here.
If the Saudi's are willing to pay for it then let them fire the shot. They have the technology. Time to stop being the world's help desk.
Hell they wanted us to outsource jobs to them so here's a big one.
So who do we kill? What if Assad has not used them? Do we hit the rebels? Both? =========
For about the 6th time now, those in possession or control of the chemical weapon arsenals.
From what I heard on the news, both sides have them. Perhaps we should just blanket bomb the whole area since nobody over there likes us and we are not sure which side hates us the most.
Not that I believe much of what the media report, but there seem to be too many questions and doubts for us to get mixed up in any way in an internal conflict that can only end badly for us.
I wonder how in the world we would find the chemicals and destroy even a few of them without boots on the ground. If we bomb and tear up a few things, the chemicals will still be there.
The bottom line is down to two realistic choices to deal the WMDs in Syria. Use nukes to destroy the WMDs or send in troops. We won't use nukes and our troops won't find them all and may likely get gassed. If our troops get gassed we will lose many of them. Pandora's box has been opened and the lid can't be closed. It's another tar baby.
But I'm with Shreck in that it seems to me if you blow up the gas locations then you release all of it and then who knows how many are killed. I'm also a little disturbed by the possibility of awakening a sleeping giant on our own soil. You have to believe it's already here.
If the Saudi's are willing to pay for it then let them fire the shot. They have the technology. Time to stop being the world's help desk.
Hell they wanted us to outsource jobs to them so here's a big one.
The US and European countries should attack Syria, but Israel should not be involved in the assault, two polls in weekend Hebrew newspapers found.
While polls in the US and United Kingdom have found overwhelming opposition to their countries attacking Syria, a Gal Hadash poll published in Israel Hayom found that 66.6 percent of respondents would be in favor of American and European military intervention in Syria.
Only 17% opposed a US/EU strike and 16.4% did not know.
When asked whether they thought such an attack would take place, 72.8% said yes, 15.8% no, and 11.4% did not know.
Asked whether they were concerned that American intervention in Syria would lead to Israeli intervention in the war, 66.8% said yes, 28.7 said no and 4.5% did not know. Regarding what Israeli intervention there would be, 57.4% said limited IDF activity, 14.1% said Syria would attack Israel but the IDF would not respond, 12.9% said there would be all out Middle East war, and 15.6% did not know.
A separate Ma�agar Mohot poll published in Friday�s Ma�ariv found that Israelis overwhelmingly oppose an Israeli strike on Syria. If America does not intervene in Israel�s northeastern neighbor, 77% of respondents who expressed an opinion said Israel should not get involved militarily, 11% said the IDF should, and 12% said they did not know and other answers.
Obama, his Admin., and his lapdogs would have the American people believe they know little to nothing of what happened before, during, and after Benghazi.
Yet now they expect us to believe that he/they know EXACTLY what happened in Syria.... gmafb.
Even a wedding room full of drunk Uncles know this. What I don't know is why anyone believes a word out of O's mouth.
"Think of the poor innocent children being killed"! "We MUST do something".....
Meanwhile, the drone bombings Obama and his Administration have conducted for the past few years has probably killed hundreds, if not thousands of innocent children.
No outcry nor spotlight on that bit of hypocrisy...
How would the possession or control question ever get sorted out?
From the reading I have been doing sounds like Shreck is exactly correct about it takes an extremely hot fire under controled conditions to destroy chemical weapons....
This vile "human insecticide" is reported to be stored in many many different locations.... Mostly in or near population centers.... Lobbing in bombs where we think it might be could result in God only knows how many deaths down wind from the impact locations.....
Anybody remember one of the ANCIENT "Head Comic books" that along with "the Furry Freak Brothers, Mr Natural, and others also had a character called out as "EGGS ACKLEY" ?
Alla' this other nonsense is just some sorta' stress relief.
You DO NOT fire HE at this chit,..........and that's "EGGS ACKLEY" the POINT of a whole bunch here saying No WIN
....NO [bleep]" WIN !
Emotions ?
....as noted, get emotional about some situations immediately to our SOUTH,....before you burn whatever you have left, completely.
WTF did anybody EXPECT from these towelheaded azzwholes, anyway ?
But I'm with Shreck in that it seems to me if you blow up the gas locations then you release all of it and then who knows how many are killed. I'm also a little disturbed by the possibility of awakening a sleeping giant on our own soil. You have to believe it's already here.
If the Saudi's are willing to pay for it then let them fire the shot. They have the technology. Time to stop being the world's help desk.
Hell they wanted us to outsource jobs to them so here's a big one.
The US and European countries should attack Syria, but Israel should not be involved in the assault, two polls in weekend Hebrew newspapers found.
While polls in the US and United Kingdom have found overwhelming opposition to their countries attacking Syria, a Gal Hadash poll published in Israel Hayom found that 66.6 percent of respondents would be in favor of American and European military intervention in Syria.
Only 17% opposed a US/EU strike and 16.4% did not know.
When asked whether they thought such an attack would take place, 72.8% said yes, 15.8% no, and 11.4% did not know.
Asked whether they were concerned that American intervention in Syria would lead to Israeli intervention in the war, 66.8% said yes, 28.7 said no and 4.5% did not know. Regarding what Israeli intervention there would be, 57.4% said limited IDF activity, 14.1% said Syria would attack Israel but the IDF would not respond, 12.9% said there would be all out Middle East war, and 15.6% did not know.
A separate Ma�agar Mohot poll published in Friday�s Ma�ariv found that Israelis overwhelmingly oppose an Israeli strike on Syria. If America does not intervene in Israel�s northeastern neighbor, 77% of respondents who expressed an opinion said Israel should not get involved militarily, 11% said the IDF should, and 12% said they did not know and other answers.
One last post and I'm off to bed. I have watched all the video of the gas attack, the symptoms look right, convulsions, flushing of the face, snot ect. But there just aren't as many casualties as I would have expected. I know that sounds harsh but sarin is dammed deadly. There should have been few survivors, which leads me to believe that someone got it wrong. Amateurs or sarin past it's shelf life I dunnow. When Saddam gassed the Kurd villages it killed damn near everyone there. And I'm picturing Isaac being drug outta the court room, "I'm out of order, you're out of order"! Night all, sweet sarin dreams.
What I find interesting is that chemical weapons merit "punishment", but gulags, slavery, police state oppression, sex slavery, abandonment of civil rights, mass starvation, political imprisonment, and death by bullets/bombs/fire are all perfectly acceptable practices the UN, US, and Europe never really seems to give a rat's azz about. But oh noes.... not poison gas!!!
Kill a few hundred thousand in Rwanda with bullets...whatever. Commit genocide against Christians in Sudan using AK47s...no sweat. Use 9 year old's brainwashed with drugs as assassins/thugs in feudal warlord nonsense in Liberia and Sierra Leone...hey, it's all good. But hell no, don't bring out the 150 year old military tech, or IT'S ON!!!
The entire world is so full of sheit. This atrocity in Syria, which now appears to be a moron's goof up, is like an average Thursday stroll across half of Africa. Where is Obama's red line on the thousands of blacks killed every single day in the Motherland? Where is Europe's or the UN's?
Oh that's right, Syria has something to do with stable, global oil prices, while most of Africa does not. Now I see...
Bob In principle you may be right but I have no confidence in these Chicago clowns being able to do anything but screw it up and screw us in the process. Therefore, I'm agin it.
Our intel out of Syria is so bad, we don't have a clue who has what or where it is. =========
I don't know if that's true or not. Respecting you and your resources though, if it is true,then the strike should not occur.
I was more than specific, ad nauseum in fact, as to necessary identifiable targets before I'd agree to a strike.
Yep! I agree that you've made that point clear. My hang up is exactly what Steve pointed out. Any source we have is untrustworthy at best. There is no solid evidence as to who exactly did this.
That's why we know for a fact that any mission to go in there would only serve as a PR job and distraction for Obama.
Don't bother isaac with logic. ..afterall he is an attorney
He's also a LONG TIME poster here, known and (right or wrong), liked by many.
Maybe You need to pull your horns in just a little, Mister.
All,...anybody MET this "Jcubed" yet ?
GTC
nope!
I agree! Bob is a man of impeccable character who is beyond reproach in my book. I've had the honor of sharing a fire in his company.
He had been a true friend to me and my family and given more than we could ever repay him.
It cracks me up seeing nobodies attempt to mock his character based upon what they presume to know of the man.
We don't always have to agree. As a matter of fact I don't know that we'd be friends if we did. A meeting of the mind is a requirement for any friend of mine.
I figure Bob lives so close to DC that his judgement has been clouded .... Possibly the result of an especially noxious cloud of sewer/swamp gas drifting down from Washington.....
Don't worry cross I'm coming down to visit. Life has just been hectic lately. We can chat in person and you can then make your judgement fully informed.
I almost typed, " Hey, let's send him a big bottle of oxygen and a gas mask" before I realized there is just no way for that to be even remotely funny.
The news reads like a chapter from one of the Left Behind books these days.... a sincere Prayer for all the innocents suffering.
Bob In principle you may be right but I have no confidence in these Chicago clowns being able to do anything but screw it up and screw us in the process. Therefore, I'm agin it.
Closest to my thinking among the posts I've read. Defending the defenseless against evil is a noble virtue but I've grown more pragmatic over time particularly vis-a-vis the Middle East after the latest Iraq venture. Somebody said, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Take it as you will, lack of faith in Obama to act competently with good motives (!) or unintended consequences. Listening to all the talking heads including the elected ones and their minions the chances of a good result are vanishing with a very substantial chance of making things worse or very much worse.
As for the leadership and confidence in the U.S., that was lost long ago. The administration has revealed its incompetence and fecklessness to the world. Obama was all set to lead the world until he found to his chagrin nobody else in a leadership position showed up to share the burden and more importantly the blame, "leading from behind" to coin a phrase. Planning for a response and building a consensus among allies (and Russia) should have been started over two years ago when the possibility became apparent. Now Obama is a buffoon and a lovely and deserving pi�ata for Putin. Hillary is hiding and has anybody heard from NSC types? No intelligence or contingency planning or diplomatic ground work. Oops.
If China used chemical weapons against some Muslims in its restless territories and children were killed in the process, would you think it a moral imperative for the US to send a couple hundred Tomahawks in their direction?
If China used chemical weapons against some Muslims in its restless territories and children were killed in the process, would you think it a moral imperative for the US to send a couple hundred Tomahawks in their direction?
I think the children would be on their own on that one.
It's hard to imagine just how primitive a large portion of this planet is and how our values don't mean a thing to their everyday drive to survive.
It's much easier for some Americans to simply write a check to Sally Struther's and be done with it, it's less painful than dealing with the reality. Reality is a biotch.
When Saddam gassed the Kurd villages it killed damn near everyone there.
Nah - there weren't any gas weapons of mass destruction there - (said Kerry et al after they weren't found) so they must have just committed mass suicide all at the same time - facts be damned..
I am confident that even when configured this way the hypocrisy of your post will escape you.
I for one have gotten extremely irritated with Bob's condescension & name-calling and have expressed it in more and less mature ways, but have no doubt he is a good guy.
Same for you, but your blindness for your tendencies to engage in the very activities you lament in others even within the same post is amazing.
I am confident that even when configured this way the hypocrisy of your post will escape you.
I for one have gotten extremely irritated with Bob's condescension & name-calling and have expressed it in more and less mature ways, but have no doubt he is a good guy.
Same for you, but your blindness for your tendencies to engage in the very activities you lament in others even within the same post is amazing.
Dan Kaszeta, a former officer of the U.S. Army�s Chemical Corps and a leading private consultant, pointed out a number of details absent from the footage so far: �None of the people treating the casualties or photographing them are wearing any sort of chemical-warfare protective gear,� he says, �and despite that, none of them seem to be harmed.� This would seem to rule out most types of military-grade chemical weapons, including the vast majority of nerve gases, since these substances would not evaporate immediately, especially if they were used in sufficient quantities to kill hundreds of people, but rather leave a level of contamination on clothes and bodies which would harm anyone coming in unprotected contact with them in the hours after an attack. In addition, he says that �there are none of the other signs you would expect to see in the aftermath of a chemical attack, such as intermediate levels of casualties, severe visual problems, vomiting and loss of bowel control.� - See more at: http://www.therightplanet.com/#sthash.Y4Y5VsPl.dpuf
Dan Kaszeta, a former officer of the U.S. Army�s Chemical Corps and a leading private consultant, pointed out a number of details absent from the footage so far: �None of the people treating the casualties or photographing them are wearing any sort of chemical-warfare protective gear,� he says, �and despite that, none of them seem to be harmed.� This would seem to rule out most types of military-grade chemical weapons, including the vast majority of nerve gases, since these substances would not evaporate immediately, especially if they were used in sufficient quantities to kill hundreds of people, but rather leave a level of contamination on clothes and bodies which would harm anyone coming in unprotected contact with them in the hours after an attack. In addition, he says that �there are none of the other signs you would expect to see in the aftermath of a chemical attack, such as intermediate levels of casualties, severe visual problems, vomiting and loss of bowel control.� - See more at: http://www.therightplanet.com/#sthash.Y4Y5VsPl.dpuf
Anybody else notice the great COLOR / skin tone evident in virtually ALL of the 'Bodies' pictured ?
......no darkening, pooling, bruising, lividity, rictus...just normal brown and pinkish brown complexions.FINEST looking bunch of corpses we've ever seen.
Wait,.....you don't think perhaps this whole thing was ...... ?
I am confident that even when configured this way the hypocrisy of your post will escape you.
I for one have gotten extremely irritated with Bob's condescension & name-calling and have expressed it in more and less mature ways, but have no doubt he is a good guy.
Same for you, but your blindness for your tendencies to engage in the very activities you lament in others even within the same post is amazing.
Well, you've obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a [bleep] about what irritates you.
Dan Kaszeta, a former officer of the U.S. Army�s Chemical Corps and a leading private consultant, pointed out a number of details absent from the footage so far: �None of the people treating the casualties or photographing them are wearing any sort of chemical-warfare protective gear,� he says, �and despite that, none of them seem to be harmed.� This would seem to rule out most types of military-grade chemical weapons, including the vast majority of nerve gases, since these substances would not evaporate immediately, especially if they were used in sufficient quantities to kill hundreds of people, but rather leave a level of contamination on clothes and bodies which would harm anyone coming in unprotected contact with them in the hours after an attack. In addition, he says that �there are none of the other signs you would expect to see in the aftermath of a chemical attack, such as intermediate levels of casualties, severe visual problems, vomiting and loss of bowel control.� - See more at: http://www.therightplanet.com/#sthash.Y4Y5VsPl.dpuf
Anybody else notice the great COLOR / skin tone evident in virtually ALL of the 'Bodies' pictured ?
......no darkening, pooling, bruising, lividity, rictus...just normal brown and pinkish brown complexions.FINEST looking bunch of corpses we've ever seen.
Wait,.....you don't think perhaps this whole thing was ...... ?
When I first saw the initial video, I thought the same thing...
However, not having any experience with that sort of thing I withheld judgement.
For better or worse (mostly for better, I believe), the United States is the guarantor of the global order, which we took the lead in creating. In that role, we provide global public goods�forms of stability and security, such as freedom of the seas, from which other nations benefit, not just us.
True enough, the stability and security that this country provides allows other nations to be free-riders, to benefit from what we do without contributing to it. Understandably, the American people resent this�and when a foreign involvement backfires, they want to scale back the nation's global role.
Resent it? I don't resent it. I despise it. I abhor it. It makes my blood pressure shoot to stratospheric levels. It makes me mad enough to grab some Euro hippy son of a bitch and throw him through a damned wall. And that goes double for those who watch us do the heavy lifting and then level charges of war mongering for cleaning up their backdoors.
IMvHO we are doing the right thing. We make the case, we show the evidence, and we see how the rest of the world reacts. If they can't find the fortitude to help us clean this mess up then we just leave it alone. In this particular set of circumstances we just don't have a set of friends at risk. Even those at the business end of this atrocity would probably rejoice at the thought of these weapons being turned on us.
To me we draw a line in the sand that we refuse to cross: The rest of the world ponies up when these situations come along. No more sitting back watching us keep them safe. And certainly not for free.
Originally Posted by isaac
All things said, taking out babies and other innocents with chemical gases will never be condoned by me, regardless of the dems or GOP in power at the time. Now, it's happening and being left unchecked...and it will continue.
As I've stated before and again thereafter...take them out,regardless of who possesses the cowardly weapons. My friends, and my antagonists here, are incapable of changing my position.
Again, my friend we are not the world's cop. We certainly don't get paid for doing so. It is time we accept limits. We are going to have to anyway. We either learn to work within the framework of international alliances or we will be very ill equipped to deal with the world when the ability to wage war at our whim is taken away. And believe me Bob you and I will live to see the day when it is done.
Better to do so voluntarily than to have that power wrested away through force.
If China used chemical weapons against some Muslims in its restless territories and children were killed in the process, would you think it a moral imperative for the US to send a couple hundred Tomahawks in their direction?
I am confident that even when configured this way the hypocrisy of your post will escape you.
I for one have gotten extremely irritated with Bob's condescension & name-calling and have expressed it in more and less mature ways, but have no doubt he is a good guy.
Same for you, but your blindness for your tendencies to engage in the very activities you lament in others even within the same post is amazing.
Well, you've obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a [bleep] about what irritates you.
GFY
Ha ha thanks for confirming exactly what I was saying, Mr. kettle.
Lets put things into perspective. Assad is accused of using sarin gas on 1429 of his people, including women and children. Even though this number is being disputed as inaccurate, lets go with it for now...
Our Potus has taken an issue and marked a red line that Assad seemingly crossed. The Democrats largely fall in line and support Obama on this issue. The Democrats in this country support killing our own unborn at the rate of 1450 every 36 hours.
I'm sorry, I see no good reasons going to Syria to stop a genocide when we do our own version here each and every day. Let Syria sort out its own problems. We have many here, abortion is just one of them.
This call to war, or "limited strategic strikes" is not to protect Americans nor American interests. Rather, it's to distract our attention from domestic issues and scandals, and at the same time continue to expand governments size and power.
Everything they do any more is to expand government power.
Meanwhile patriotic Americans risk life and limb fighting for a lie. So ironic having Mr. Anti-Vietnam Kerry mongering for this war....
The Dim pacifists are using Syrian children to take the heat off Benghazi and the other 1000 issues O has beaten America down with....never let a crisis go to waste.
Lets put things into perspective. Assad is accused of using sarin gas on 1423 of his people, including women and children. Even though this number is being disputed as inaccurate, lets go with it for now...
Our Potus has taken an issue and marked a red line that Assad seemingly crossed. The Democrats largely fall in line and support Obama on this issue. The Democrats in this country support killing our own unborn at the rate of 1450 every 36 hours.
I'm sorry, I see no good reasons going to Syria to stop a genocide when we do our own version here each and every day. Let Syria sort out its own problems. We have many here, abortion is just one of them.
This call to war, or "limited strategic strikes" is not to protect Americans nor American interests. Rather, it's to distract our attention from domestic issues and scandals, and at the same time continue to expand governments size and power.
Everything they do any more is to expand government power.
Meanwhile patriotic Americans risk life and limb fighting for a lie. So ironic having Mr. Anti-Vietnam Kerry mongering for this war....
this whole exercise, if it indeed goes through is pointless.
many good examples presented here, particularly the China scenario.
it basically boils down to this imo.
if some bad guys kill 15,000 children with a hammer in BFE we don't get involved. But if they gas 1500 children we're sending bombs away?
their values are not our values. Just wait till chemical agents are released into our water supplies by folks coming across our southern borders!
only bombs we should be sending is bombing with emails to the idiots in DC that want to spend billions of dollars bombing wasteland in Syria and leaving our borders unprotected.
Ah yes. Bob believes chemical weapons are evil. That's some veil right there!
TFF
The surface of the globe is virtually chock full of atrocities. Why this one in particular? The answer to that has something to do with Iran and the fact that The State will always couch its justifications for war in humanitarian terms so that those who oppose perpetual war for profit can be accused of being foes of humanitarianism.
Where did he imply that just this atrocity is the only evil he'd like to see addressed?
A dude speaks out about something he views as evil and suddenly an ominous clouded veil is lifted.
TFF
Ask one of the dozens of Fire members who've commented on their utter confusion over Bob's position on this. There was no confusion on my part. He's an open book to me, as are you.
Ask one of the dozens of Fire members who've commented on their utter confusion over Bob's position on this. There was no confusion on my part. He's an open book to me, as are you.
Hawkeye:
I think if you come along to the March boar hunt next year and actually take the time to sit down and talk with Bob - I mean really talk - you'd be surprised at how not like a liberal he really is.
I'm sure he'll be there. If you sign up early, I'm sure you'd get a place. I plan on being there.
Where did he imply that just this atrocity is the only evil he'd like to see addressed?
A dude speaks out about something he views as evil and suddenly an ominous clouded veil is lifted.
TFF
Ask one of the dozens of Fire members who've commented on their utter confusion over Bob's position on this. There was no confusion on my part. He's an open book to me, as are you.
The Israeli propaganda machine turned it up to 11 today.
It's interesting to see how far they'll go.
I told my Mom and Dad today, regarding this subject, that it's strange that the MSM is even reporting that the majority of Americans are so against this. Usually the propaganda machine is in full play and you'd be conditioned by them to think everybody but you thinks it's a good thing.
I am confident that even when configured this way the hypocrisy of your post will escape you.
I for one have gotten extremely irritated with Bob's condescension & name-calling and have expressed it in more and less mature ways, but have no doubt he is a good guy.
Same for you, but your blindness for your tendencies to engage in the very activities you lament in others even within the same post is amazing.
Well, you've obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a [bleep] about what irritates you.
GFY
==========
The victim syndrome cracks me up, too. It comes across as so liberal. Some think asinine ideas and inane blather deserves a discussion.
The Israeli propaganda machine turned it up to 11 today.
It's interesting to see how far they'll go.
I told my Mom and Dad today, regarding this subject, that it's strange that the MSM is even reporting that the majority of Americans are so against this. Usually the propaganda machine is in full play and you'd be conditioned by them to think everybody but you thinks it's a good thing.
Exactly. I guess, though, that that strategy stops working when regular folks can't even find anyone in their own lives who thinks the way the MSM tells them most people think.
Alla that "It's fo' da chowdren" chit is pretty weak, too. =========
Give me about 10 minutes to come up with something as equally powerful as the above. I must have misread your actual age somewhere. I thought you were over 50. Sorry if it was actually 15.
What would you know about regular folks? You're a frikken screw ball who grabs gun out of freezer bags when girl scouts come to sell some cookies.
I hope you only teach elementary school because you're no match for high schoolers who know they have a wing-nutted easy target in their midst's.
How many "Kick Me I'm a [bleep]" taped papers have you pulled off the back of your shirt since the first day of school?
Be honest, it could be cathartic for you. Not you being a [bleep], but being constantly taunted.
That's truly pathetic, my friend, that this is the best you can muster in your own defense .. something I'd expect from an ESE ninth grader. I take that back. I've never heard anything that lame from an ESE ninth grader.
What would you know about regular folks? You're a frikken screw ball who grabs gun out of freezer bags when girl scouts come to sell some cookies.
I hope you only teach elementary school because you're no match for high schoolers who know they have a wing-nutted easy target in their midst's.
How many "Kick Me I'm a [bleep]" taped papers have you pulled off the back of your shirt since the first day of school?
Be honest, it could be cathartic for you. Not you being a [bleep], but being constantly taunted.
That's truly pathetic, my friend, that this is the best you can muster in your own defense .. something I'd expect from an ESE ninth grader. I take that back. I've never heard anything that lame from an ESE ninth grader.
You think!? I have a feeling those teenie weenie guns and even smaller bullets everyone is loading up on ain't gonna' amount to chit by the time this is all over.
Alla that "It's fo' da chowdren" chit is pretty weak, too. =========
Give me about 10 minutes to come up with something as equally powerful as the above.
*shrugg*,..
"tick tock"
Meanwhile, back in the grown ups area where folks actually argue without resorting to name-calling and grade school insults...
They had a bunch of articles in the area you spoke of. Is Drudge actually posting those for news items or just making fun of the MSM?
"Obama's Daughters to Be Raped by Crazed Iranians"...etc.
Better than "it's for the children"!
By the way, where is the area in which members don't call each other sophomoric names instead of engaging in actual substantive debate? I'd like to see that sometime...
By the way, where is the area in which members don't call each other sophomoric names
Well,...I ain't gonna try to claim that I'm above it,..but when I'm in the mood to be insulting, I like to do it with a little creativity.
Creativity takes energy and I'm short on energy these days,..so unless the situation gets extreme, I respond to it with bemused detachment.
Sometimes I respond,...sometimes not,..but when Isaac is givin' off that "booger firecracker" vibe,..it's fun to light his fuse and watch him blow snot all over the screen.
Last I heard he was offering to trade his commission to any kid from somebody named Isaac for a Matzo ball and a Jujyfruit Gefilte fish,...lime flavored preferred.
Stay out of it,amigo. Bristoe and I have had our good times and bad times over the past 7 years.
I think he's a frikken idiot. He thinks the same of me.
He's earned the respect and right to say it at my dinner table,though.
He's a good man. He's just a completely [bleep] up, foolish man.
I'll say it to his face over a chilled Stohli and a stuffed cabbage as he would to me,save the Stohli for me, regrettfuly. He wouldn't have to spray down my bed if I slept at his place, though.
I have a feeling you two are about to have a breakthrough. Just a few more insults and I'm sure you'll find middle ground.
It's like a married couple arguing at a restaurant. Just look away awkwardly, rolling your eyes and hoping they make up in time for some fun at bedtime.
Dewd you and me both. Happened to me last night over my wife's birthday dinner... She thought it was cute and I just cringed with each high-pitched screech...
Stay out of it,amigo. Bristoe and I have had our good times and bad times over the past 7 years.
I think he's a frikken idiot. He thinks the same of me.
He's earned the respect and right to say it at my dinner table,though.
He's a good man. He's just a completely [bleep] up, foolish man.
I'll say it to his face over a chilled Stohli and a stuffed cabbage as he would to me,save the Stohli for me, regrettfuly. He wouldn't have to spray down my bed if I slept at his place, though.
I didn't mean to interfere with your play date... carry on.
My meal always ends up in a carry-out box/bag, as well.
It's my fault for not putting enough Ambien in the juice cup, I guess.
The crying always seems to invite young moms from other tables to come over and talk baby talk for 10 minutes while your 12 dollar entry wastes away.
Being in your 50s,you get some leeway in being a dick head. It may seem rude and unpleasant to you young guys now but it is pure heaven once you're there, trust me.
�In just 21 hours [after the attack on Syria], a family member of every U.S. minister [department secretary], U.S. ambassadors, U.S. military commanders around the world will be abducted. And then 18 hours later, videos of their amputation will be spread [around the world].�
�In just 21 hours [after the attack on Syria], a family member of every U.S. minister [department secretary], U.S. ambassadors, U.S. military commanders around the world will be abducted. And then 18 hours later, videos of their amputation will be spread [around the world].�
The only reason you haven't suffered a universal beatdown here is that many are trying to stay friends with you. That and the fact that B and some others have already handed you your asss. I count maybe one other person amongst all who have posted on these threads that is anywhere in the vicinity of your camp. You should stop while you are still like under fifty points down.
You're not of a capable skillset, son. You do crack me up, though.
You and your 4 pillow biting,,freedom fighting think tanks keep up your good work,however. It's hilarious to read but I would never stop you gals from striving to reach outside your retardation.
I can't recall an OP ever calling in an artillery barrage AND an airstrike on their foxhole at the same time. MOH citation being prepared as we speak. To be awarded posthumously it appears.
I can't recall an OP ever calling in an artillery barrage AND an airstrike on their foxhole at the same time. MOH citation being prepared as we speak. To be awarded posthumously it appears.
I find myself laughing while being embarrassed for Bob at the same time.
You're not of a capable skillset, son. You do crack me up, though.
You and your 4 pillow biting,,freedom fighting think tanks keep up your good work,however. It's hilarious to read but I would never stop you gals from striving to reach outside your retardation.
Hope that helps,Pyle.
You've toned this post down considerably since first putting it up. Second thoughts?
You're not of a capable skillset, son. You do crack me up, though.
You and your 4 pillow biting,,freedom fighting think tanks keep up your good work,however. It's hilarious to read but I would never stop you gals from striving to reach outside your retardation.
Hope that helps,Pyle.
I haven't really had to make much of an argument Bob, because as I already said, about 95% of the folks on the forum here are against what you're touting. I'm just sitting here hoping you don't stroke out. You know, rage and alcohol are a dangerous combination for you elderly folk. Maybe try some of those Lamaz breathing exercises while thinking about Barney the Dinosaur would help you calm down.
Look, I'm going to accept the fact you and Hock actually think you're unloading some powerful stuff. I'll give it to the both of you. Great stuff.
I'll take a few seconds to recover from the hit and try to come back with something as worthy as your team work.
Since the remote is most likely resting on the back of your head,I'll trust that Hock will read it to you...at least 3 times.
Bob nobody has really teamed up on you here and that's the whole point. I don't recall even making an argument because everybody's already against this thing as evidenced by the whole thread and a couple of others. Most people out here in the world are against it too. There isn't any real "team work" going on. Bristoe is such a loner that as soon as anybody congratulates him, he leaves, as evidenced here. So I really did nothing but state the obvious, now and throughout the whole thread. You're the only one who can't seem to understand that.
Might be a good time to cap it up and go beddy-bye. Just sayin'...
You must think you have some special skills in quoting a reply before a simple typo fix was made inside 10 seconds. Kind of stalkish,in a perverse kind of way.
Somewhat the norm for screwballs like you and hock.
Your silly assed accusations might make sense to you and the 3 wingnuts who think you have a brain but I'll let them go with all the attention they deserve.
Normally, isaac, I agree with you way more often than not, but, I just can't see an upside to this. My gut tells me that no good deed in this will go unpunished. Why are no ME countries with armies trained and supplied by us willing to step up & help the Syrian rebels? I think they see they same no upside down the road.
Look man, I get what you're saying. Virtually every single one of my friends here agree with you. I understand exactly what all of you are saying.
It's simply how I feel about the situation. I'm not going to feign a fake position or be intellectually dishonest simply to gain favor with folks, friends or not.
I'm a big boy and I've not felt one hit from the beatings.
It's simply how I personally feel about gas warfare.
You must think you have some special skills in quoting a reply before a simple typo fix was made inside 10 seconds. Kind of stalkish,in a perverse kind of way.
Somewhat the norm for screwballs like you and hock.
Your silly assed accusations might make sense to you and the 3 wingnuts who think you have a brain but I'll let them go with all the attention they deserve.
Screwballs? Then you must think 95% of the people who disagreed with you on these threads are "screwballs". "Stalkerish"...lol That's just stupid. I haven't said anything screwballish anywhere. You're the one thinking you and Obama are right and everybody else is wrong. Then you're honing in on a couple of people who aren't as popular as you are and diverting the argument over to them. You're throwing me in the mix and calling me a screwball and wingnut. I'm neither.
To be honest, this fits right in with your argument for caving on the background checks/universal registration stuff a few months back. Again, when you get your asss handed to you, you start hurling insults. If you fall on the principled side in the first place, you don't have to worry about it. If you've got an argument, you really don't have to start the insults.
Look man, I get what you're saying. Virtually every single one of my friends here agree with you. I understand exactly what all of you are saying.
It's simply how I feel about the situation. I'm not going to feign a fake position or be intellectually dishonest simply to gain favor with folks, friends or not.
I'm a big boy and I've not felt one hit from the beatings. Alcohol and drugs will do that for you. Take it from me, you've been thoroughly trashed, whether you admit to it or not.
It's simply how I personally feel about gas warfare.
So given that's how you feel, if it's proven that the Rebels were the ones who used the gas, you're for turning our weaponry on them instead of your buddy Asssad or whoever? Right?
Look man, I get what you're saying. Virtually every single one of my friends here agree with you. I understand exactly what all of you are saying.
It's simply how I feel about the situation. I'm not going to feign a fake position or be intellectually dishonest simply to gain favor with folks, friends or not.
I'm a big boy and I've not felt one hit from the beatings.
It's simply how I personally feel about gas warfare.
You are far more tolerable when you just keep quiet and play student. You really sound stupid when you try to step outside that boundary.
Good ideas and winning arguments are many times wasted on the militantly unintelligent, so your unsuccessful resistance to me schooling you probably is indeed less tolerable. Try plugging your ears and chanting "O-BAM-A" or the like and maybe that will help.
Where did he imply that just this atrocity is the only evil he'd like to see addressed?
A dude speaks out about something he views as evil and suddenly an ominous clouded veil is lifted.
TFF
Ask one of the dozens of Fire members who've commented on their utter confusion over Bob's position on this. There was no confusion on my part. He's an open book to me, as are you.
Funny coming from a [bleep] retard
How many "KOTYs" has the real [bleep] nailed now ?
It's simply how I personally feel about gas warfare.
Yeah, that's it Bob. The difference between you and the rest of the Fire is that you strongly oppose gas warfare and we don't. If only we were as moral as you, we'd agree.
Right. W lands on an aircraft carrier that 'accomplished' it's mission during international tensions..war. And O meets with gays in Russia during international tensions...pending his war.
When he takes time off from golf there's no doubt O is the stud here.
Kerry's finest hour was when he committed treason by working with the enemy against his country and lied about atrocities committed by our military in Vietnam.
It should be a cold day in hell when the military, who has been spit on, schit on and defiled with social experimentation from the aswholes in charge and the trash that voted for them, is used yet again to make a joke.
The sanctimonious prick is just playing games, being a smartazz with his red line comments; he isn't serious, its him making a mockery out of the same philosophy that disregards the murder of millions of babies and the social engineering that is destroying the family foundation.
Is it who we are? Yeah, it used to be.
Quite frankly I don't have the time of day for any liberal and any participation with gun-grabbing, wealth stealing commies.
Our biggest national security threat is the economic globalists running the show and about 50% of "we" that thinks "we" can fix anything with the Federal level is 50 years stupid.
Do "we" care about chemical warfare? Yes, we obviously do. But its about #17 on the list of schit "we" care about. Don't juggle that 17th ball for the [bleep] that tossed you the other 16....they'll give you the 18th in short order.
It should be a cold day in hell when the military, who has been spit on, schit on and defiled with social experimentation from the aswholes in charge and the trash that voted for them, is used yet again to make a joke.
The sanctimonious prick is just playing games, being a smartazz with his red line comments; he isn't serious, its him making a mockery out of the same philosophy that disregards the murder of millions of babies and the social engineering that is destroying the family foundation.
Is it who we are? Yeah, it used to be.
Quite frankly I don't have the time of day for any liberal and any participation with gun-grabbing, wealth stealing commies.
Our biggest national security threat is the economic globalists running the show and about 50% of "we" that thinks "we" can fix anything with the Federal level is 50 years stupid.
Do "we" care about chemical warfare? Yes, we obviously do. But its about #17 on the list of schit "we" care about. Don't juggle that 17th ball for the [bleep] that tossed you the other 16....they'll give you the 18th in short order.
Not to be offensive but that stuff is obvious to most on here. What this thread is really about, more than what you eloquently stated, is a regular poster, claiming to be a conservative and one of "us" siding with the enemy and advocating for obvious treason. I don't buy the "moral high ground" rhetoric at all. I also don't buy the chemical warfare danger because chemicals have been used on a lot of people and we said little and did nothing.
Robert E. Lee stated that duty was the highest virtue coming even before honor. It is our duty as Americans to oppose the wanton waste of our countrymen as well as our treasures, on at best, stupidity and at worst actively assisting our enemy.
I asked the OP if he was so against chemical warfare would he be willing to use our same resources against the rebels if they prove to be the ones who used the chemicals rather than Assad. I got only insults as answers. The whole thing is baffling in its dearth of logic.
Maybe its #1 or #3 for the OP on his "give a schit" list....
"We" are going to be asked to give up on a lot of things in the near future, by virtue of design. The other half is in full support of it, so long as it doesn't affect them.
For Bob, maybe he's having trouble realizing that. I know there's a pile of Social Security hopefuls with the same faulty hopes and dreams.
It's not about who we are as much as it is about who some of us are and who we were.
The country needs a good fixing before everything else. Until most of the clowns at the Federal level are gone or the sufficiency of the majority of states are in order, we CAN'T make any claim to an ideal that we ourselves do not live up to.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that conservative states and localities are prospering, sometimes amongst the socialist disease...and I don't see many of them participating in the diarrhea of that "leadership".
Maybe its #1 or #3 for the OP on his "give a schit" list....
"We" are going to be asked to give up on a lot of things in the near future, by virtue of design. The other half is in full support of it, so long as it doesn't affect them.
For Bob, maybe he's having trouble realizing that. I know there's a pile of Social Security hopefuls with the same faulty hopes and dreams.
It's not about who we are as much as it is about who some of us are and who we were.
The country needs a good fixing before everything else. Until most of the clowns at the Federal level are gone or the sufficiency of the majority of states are in order, we CAN'T make any claim to an ideal that we ourselves do not live up to.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that conservative states and localities are prospering, sometimes amongst the socialist disease...and I don't see many of them participating in the diarrhea of that "leadership".
I understand and respect your argument about the original post, but disagree.
As to the stuff in your previous post strictly about the situation itself...agreed. Getting away from talk about posters, you are spot-on about many not being able to adjust to new conditions. I can't help but think, for instance, that people are running up huge amounts of debt trying to live the same lifestyle they were prior to Katrina. Katrina being truly a "watershed" event. I'd estimate that around here, it is costing about $20000 a year more just to keep up. That, in and of itself, is already "giving up a lot". More coming...most likely. We aren't living as well now as we were then either, all things considered.
I can't believe anyone believes a word that O spews. Or, anyone in his administration. Leftists are the most dangerous people in America.
Respectfully, the most dangerous people in American are those who do not use reason in the voting booth or in their own lives. Living based on emotions is one of the greatest scam ever pulled on America.
The philosophy of self sacrifice for the greater good is inherently evil and not what the foundation of this country was intended to turn into. Today the two parties quabble and "fight" for who determines where you should give up your life in submission to altruism.
What happened to the days of a person being able to determine the best uses for the product of their labors? The days of determining where and how your money were spent and what beliefs it supported? Today we idly stand by as politicians steal from us and promote programs and ideals that are completely contradictory to our own belief system, yet we still fund them and hope some other party won't scam us quite as bad.
Compounding this is the fact that the politicians of today guilt you into giving up your own principles. How many times have you disagreed with a policy on to have friends and politicians resort to guilting you into silence by claiming it is for the children, elderly, poor, disadvantaged, etc etc etc?
Get back to what made America...production, reason, protection of individual rights, and the ability to make and KEEP the products of your own labor.
Right. W lands on an aircraft carrier that 'accomplished' it's mission during international tensions..war. And O meets with gays in Russia during international tensions...pending his war.
When he takes time off from golf there's no doubt O is the stud here.
I can't believe anyone believes a word that O spews. Or, anyone in his administration. Leftists are the most dangerous people in America.
Respectfully, the most dangerous people in American are those who do not use reason in the voting booth or in their own lives. Living based on emotions is one of the greatest scam ever pulled on America.
The philosophy of self sacrifice for the greater good is inherently evil and not what the foundation of this country was intended to turn into. Today the two parties quabble and "fight" for who determines where you should give up your life in submission to altruism.
What happened to the days of a person being able to determine the best uses for the product of their labors? The days of determining where and how your money were spent and what beliefs it supported? Today we idly stand by as politicians steal from us and promote programs and ideals that are completely contradictory to our own belief system, yet we still fund them and hope some other party won't scam us quite as bad.
Compounding this is the fact that the politicians of today guilt you into giving up your own principles. How many times have you disagreed with a policy on to have friends and politicians resort to guilting you into silence by claiming it is for the children, elderly, poor, disadvantaged, etc etc etc?
Get back to what made America...production, reason, protection of individual rights, and the ability to make and KEEP the products of your own labor.
It's simply how I personally feel about gas warfare.
Yeah, that's it Bob. The difference between you and the rest of the Fire is that you strongly oppose gas warfare and we don't. If only we were as moral as you, we'd agree.
He was mum when the Jew State used white phosphorus on the Palestinians.It's sad how a condescending NeoCon mind works.
You're saying the same thing. Everything the left does is based on emotions.
Sort of...think you missed the real point hidden in there
No I think I get it. I would just add that the essence of a philosophic discussion of "self sacrifice", is the power of intention. Here lies the true injustice of the liberal movement. They think they are righteous by forcing self sacrifice for the improvement of the whole. Where they are wrong is that welfare is not charity. Welfare is stealing and leads to feelings of entitlement versus resentment. They believe it is righteous, in my opinion, due to an underlying lack of personal power and guilt. They fill the void in themselves by feeling good about themselves by redistributing other peoples' property. Charity is giving through the goodness of your own heart and it's the only form of self sacrifice that works- voluntary.
Libs use traditional thought and traditional thinking to kill us.
It isn't their emotions or traditions; a statist and commie doesn't have any....they do however like to have the power to dole out the rules and other's money.
Are you beginnining to get it yet, schit for brains? When only two or three morons think you make any sense, it's time to look into a mirror and figure out a way to work yourself out from underneath the stupid that consumes fruitcakes like you and that Hock retard.
You're not so stupid that you can't even see it, are you? My money is on yeah, you really are.
They need to use the same public policies in place in USA in black neighbourhoods. Just keep feeding them guns and bullets and they will exterminate themselves.
I think liberal truly believe they are doing the right thing- they're just wrong.
You can't fix anything by forcing sacrifice and equality. Sacrifice has to be GIVEN and equality has to be EARNED.
They just don't get that.
And they get the concept of "doing the right thing" from where?
You can't fix anything by giving the state and its naturally flawed humans to create definitions against nature, tradition and thousands of years of human history.
... a regular poster, claiming to be a conservative and one of "us" siding with the enemy and advocating for obvious treason.
It's not a sticky anymore, but if you have a little time, search out the thread on the March boar hunt.
Quite a few of the Campfire members have gone on that hunt and have met Bob. Some more than once, at the hunt and elsewhere.
I think there may be one or two members on that boar hunt list that you have some respect for. Ask them if they think Bob is the kind of man who would advocate for treason.
Nothing wrong with being sensitive. But we all know families that have had to deal with drug addicts and at some point if you're able to cut the funding off with family it seems pretty straight forward to me to stop funding bad behavior to strangers....or, in this case Syrians.
... a regular poster, claiming to be a conservative and one of "us" siding with the enemy and advocating for obvious treason.
It's not a sticky anymore, but if you have a little time, search out the thread on the March boar hunt.
Quite a few of the Campfire members have gone on that hunt and have met Bob. Some more than once, at the hunt and elsewhere.
I think there may be one or two members on that boar hunt list that you have some respect for. Ask them if they think Bob is the kind of man who would advocate for treason.
What in hell would you know about who's conservative and who's not? You and your ilk here at the Fire demonstrate on a daily basis that you have no clue as to the meaning of the word.
Did you down a extra glass of muscle milk tonight, lightweight?
I did, and squatted 1.4x bodyweight a bunch of times. I also agree with TRH. If you posted that article and actually agreed with ANYTHING, not just the gist of it, you are nothing more than a closet dhimmicrap
What's holding you here, Bob? Wouldn't you be much happier at the Democrat Underground? You can come to the defense of your man Obama there, and get nothing but praise for it. Wouldn't that be nicer for you? Aren't you getting tired of the constant disapproval you get here at the Fire over your leftist views?
Are you beginnining to get it yet, schit for brains? When only two or three morons think you make any sense, it's time to look into a mirror and figure out a way to work yourself out from underneath the stupid that consumes fruitcakes like you and that Hock retard.
You're not so stupid that you can't even see it, are you? My money is on yeah, you really are.
"Schit for brains"? lol Bob, about 99% of the people on the fire agree with me on this not to mention on this thread. I figure that your insults in lieu of arguments are simply strategy...that and the fact that you basically have no argument. I'd think that at least you wouldn't demonstrate your complete inability to do basic math though.
Please answer the question Bristoe posed about sending your kids to fight in support of Al Quaeda in Syria. Then you can answer mine about supporting Assad if evidence seems to indicate that the Rebels were the ones who used chemicals. If your morality truly dictates that we not allow anybody to use chemical weapons, then you should be down with the latter. The former indicates that if you are willing to do this war, you'd be basically supporting those we are currently fighting against in the other two wars. That's treason by any measure.
Some people need killing, Assad is one of them. I will be very happy when someone puts a bullet behind his ear or drops a bomb on his ass, thankfully I won't have to wait long, someone or country is going to do it sooner than latter.
Some people need killing, Assad is one of them. I will be very happy when someone puts a bullet behind his ear or drops a bomb on his ass, thankfully I won't have to wait long, someone or country is going to do it sooner than latter.
... a regular poster, claiming to be a conservative and one of "us" siding with the enemy and advocating for obvious treason.
It's not a sticky anymore, but if you have a little time, search out the thread on the March boar hunt.
Quite a few of the Campfire members have gone on that hunt and have met Bob. Some more than once, at the hunt and elsewhere.
I think there may be one or two members on that boar hunt list that you have some respect for. Ask them if they think Bob is the kind of man who would advocate for treason.
The March Boar Hunt was probably excellent for those who could participate. There were many there, I'm sure, that I call friend on here and that I would love to meet. That said, it has nothing to do with this. Bob is advocating for a war that is stupid. Unlike Bob, I'm not out to insult somebody just for the hell of it, because I'm mad that they're smarter than me and routinely best me in arguments on here, or because I can't think up any supporting arguments for my stance on something. I realize the word "stupid" is insulting, but in this case it is so appropriate that really there is no other word for it. The Rebels are basically Al Quaeda. It's not like Al Quaeda is some group we were fighting...we still are fighting them in two other countries, to the best of my knowledge, although Obama is pulling out. In some cases, it could be the exact same people! That's treason. Look it up.
As far as asking...I'm in the habit of making my own decisions especially on something that is obvious.
To get right down to brass tacks...most of Bob's friends have ignored the thread or expressed their respectful but total disagreement with his position. Bob attacked me with insults and I've been pretty restrained.
Keeping our handful of resident black-banders off the streets is worth the boredom of reading their uneducated blather.
Your command of sexual innuendo and homosexual insults is indeed impressive, however it does nothing to bolster your argument or answer questions posed to you. Please answer the questions Bristoe and I posed to you. IIRC, Bristoe's went like, would you be willing to send your kids over to support the Al Quaeda rebels fighting against Assad? Mine was would you be willing to fight in support of Assad if the chemical weapons were actually used by the Rebels?
.... is worth the boredom of reading their uneducated blather.
Yep, I never finished college. You never finished basic training. Unassing airplanes and getting blown up is for "the other" people, as you see it, right? [bleep] you mofo.
You are just furthering people disagreeing with you based on your replys. Be a man, own up, and put forth some sort of argument for your position. Otherwise, stop attacking people... please, it really does no good.
Quote from Hot Air "The majority of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans serving in Congress are lining up against President Obama�s plan for military action in Syria... Their ranks include Rep. Tammy Duckworth (D-Ill.), who lost both legs during combat operations in Iraq in 2004. She is adamantly opposed to a U.S. strike on Syria."
THAT is who we are, Tammy Duckworth, my new hero...
As-Safir said Prince Bandar pledged to safeguard Russia�s naval base in Syria if the Assad regime is toppled, but he also hinted at Chechen terrorist attacks on Russia�s Winter Olympics in Sochi if there is no accord. �I can give you a guarantee to protect the Winter Olympics next year. The Chechen groups that threaten the security of the games are controlled by us,� he allegedly said.
Bandar was probably a little more subtle than that, but I can believe the gist of it. Sometimes it's hard for folks here to see what the Arabs are doing because of all the uproar over Israeli jews.
Once again, for those who haven't been keeping up: Chechnya is predominatly Sunni. Saudi Arabia is predominately Sunni.
Chechnyan muslims have been terrorizing Russia for decades. Russia has good reason to be pizzed off at any Sunni regime that's friendly with Chechnya. Saudi Arabia seems to be friendly with Chechnya.
Russia is not friendly with Saudi Arabia, but business is business, and Russia will balance a trade deal and an extortion racket over the Olympics with Saudi Arabia against a decrease in the value of Russia's relations with Iran which, being Shia and friendly with Assad, is NOT friendly with Chechnya.
I figure Putin will tell the Saudis to go to hell, and put an army around the Olympic village to deal with Chechnyan threats.
Bristoe, Hawkeye and Ghostinthemachine, among others, can't seem to see any of this because they're too busy obsessing over Jews.
![[Linked Image]](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Bzv5IbvmF20/UieDq8-kVaI/AAAAAAAAL64/LDo1MG0y6wU/s400/AA+-+Obama+Cool+Wars.jpg)
I was thinking about the old way, dump a schitt load of chlorine on and let it work, OR use napalm, or nuke it.
for a gallon of gas in our future.
Classic!
![[Linked Image]](https://sphotos-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1237102_443817459066791_1505110811_n.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://s120.photobucket.com/user/rkamp_111/media/index.jpg.html)
![[Linked Image]](https://drupal.org/files/images/chickennarcissisttest.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://s120.photobucket.com/user/rkamp_111/media/bushwall_zps19566b2d.jpg.html)
![[Linked Image]](http://s120.photobucket.com/user/rkamp_111/media/Romney-israel_2292485b_zps5df497d7.jpg.html)
![[Linked Image]](http://www.quizlaw.com/blog/images/retard_nunchucks.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](https://sphotos-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1238181_640570509300717_1912189979_n.jpg)
If only we were as moral as you, we'd agree.