I really don't know what to think It doesn't co inside with my religious beliefs but I am not prepared to point a finger
But I do admire more people I know personally who are toughing it out with horrible treatments and grinding it out My Friend Jeffs wife is going through it right now and its a bitch
I respect her privacy and right to a death of her choice as she looks down the barrel of a very cruel executioner. Dying is a private matter in which the state should not be involved, when the patient is diagnosed terminal.
It's more than a pity so many lives are wasted to cancer. However and whenever those so affected chose to end their suffering is their decision alone, and a lonely one it would be. I wish this young woman peace.
Just knowing the time/place you are going to die, even if she scheduled it, is unsettling to any sane human. And yes, sometimes we treat dogs better. I am glad she is in a place where she is able to make her own decisions.
It's more than a pity so many lives are wasted to cancer. However and whenever those so affected chose to end their suffering is their decision alone, and a lonely one it would be. I wish this young woman peace.
Exactly Ricky. And I know how much you love the Lord.
I respect her privacy and right to a death of her choice as she looks down the barrel of a very cruel executioner.
Dying is a private matter in which the state should not be involved, when the patient is diagnosed terminal.
I concur.
As do I. "But for the Grace of God, there go I."
I can't imagine being her husband, or what it would be like to have my beloved wife in her place. I only hope that (God, please forbid) if that were to happen that we handled it with the dignity and the grace that she seemingly has.
That reminds me of something that my Mother said one day while I was taking her for cancer treatments. First She said that She was sorry for putting us through all of the trouble to take Her, and I reassured Her that it was a lot harder for Her than it was for us. Then She said "I don't think they are doing a bit of good, but if I don't go, I am just giving up." She fought it to the end, and I was there with Her. miles
Taint nothing wrong with choosing your fate when the inevitable is upon you.
I lost my mom as well as my 44 y/o best friend to terminal cancers and would have given anything for them to able to decide when they go vs. the weeks/months of suffering and agony.
And to have them coherent, with all of the people that love them around them seems a hell of a lot more peaceful and dignified.
Explain how she is quitting when there are no effective treatments and she has terminal cancer. She is going to die very soon. Either she will go on her own terms, peacefully, or she will die a much slower, agonizing death. Either way, she's going to die very soon; there's no "quitting" involved.
Explain how she is quitting when there are no effective treatments and she has terminal cancer. She is going to die very soon. Either she will go on her own terms, peacefully, or she will die a much slower, agonizing death. Either way, she's going to die very soon; there's no "quitting" involved.
That reminds me of something that my Mother said one day while I was taking her for cancer treatments. First She said that She was sorry for putting us through all of the trouble to take Her, and I reassured Her that it was a lot harder for Her than it was for us. Then She said "I don't think they are doing a bit of good, but if I don't go, I am just giving up." She fought it to the end, and I was there with Her. miles
By the same fiber that has me respect the choice and privacy of the young woman in question, I also respect the choices and courage of those that stand and fight this terrible disease. It is a choice made by them. I respect and honor their right to make those choices for themselves and their families.
It may be a bit surprising to some that judge others for their choices until they have stared down the very barrel of the cruel executioner that is cancer, or some other horrible, terminal disease. Please get back to us when you see the lands and groves. Let us know if your mind has changed.
Right? Suicide is the most selfish act in the world.
She has terminal cancer. She is going to die, very soon.
In general, I agree with you that suicide is the most selfish act in the world. In this case and those like it, I don't consider it suicide.
We watched my grandfather, one of the best people I've ever known, wither away under a terminal illness (one with no treatments and no cure). It eventually killed him, after it had taken his mind first, then every one of his bodily functions, finally taking him when he could no longer swallow and his involuntary muscle controls ceased to function.
I'd have ended his suffering (he didn't even know who any of us were, and eventually couldn't even see or acknowledge us), if I could have. We had to just sit there and watch him suffer.
This young lady is only avoiding a few weeks, at most, of terrible pain and agony for herself and her family. She's not doing it out of selfishness for herself, but love for her family. Their last memories of her will be of her as she has always been to them, and not some miserable, pain-wracked, wasted-away shell of a human.
Explain how she is quitting when there are no effective treatments and she has terminal cancer. She is going to die very soon. Either she will go on her own terms, peacefully, or she will die a much slower, agonizing death. Either way, she's going to die very soon; there's no "quitting" involved.
At least die trying.
Trying what? There is no treatment, no cure; only a helluva lot of pain, suffering, and wasting away - a lot of grief and agony for her family as well. What is she not "trying"?
You only get to die once. I guess I figure you ought to do it the way you see fit. Personally, I hope to go with a hot blonde riding me like a rented mule in my 90's. Barring that, I hope that I have the will to go like a man and not give up or give in until it's all over. She has the misfortune of being in this position and I'll defer to her personal choice as being right for her.
Trying what? There is no treatment, no cure; only a helluva lot of pain, suffering, and wasting away - a lot of grief and agony for her family as well. What is she not "trying"?
Trying to stay alive. If she's doing everybody such a big favor, why not get it over with?
So, tomorrow is her husband's birthday. She wants to be there for that. Why not Christmas? It's only a few months more.
I don't think you guys understand me at all. I'm no stranger to cancer, nor suicide. I will never defend either.
On her husband's birthday, she's still "her". By Christmas, if she's still here, if you have any idea about terminal cancer at this stage, you know what she'll be. There's a huge difference.
I just don't see this as suicide, any more so than I see someone else sacrificing their own life to save the life/pain/suffering of their family.
By the same fiber that has me respect the choice and privacy of the young woman in question, I also respect the choices and courage of those that stand and fight this terrible disease. It is a choice made by them. I respect and honor their right to make those choices for themselves and their families. It may be a bit surprising to some that judge others for their choices until they have stared down the very barrel of the cruel executioner that is cancer, or some other horrible, terminal disease. Please get back to us when you see the lands and groves. Let us know if your mind has changed.
You're 'battin' a thousand' this morning on this issue. Your reasoning is sound, your empathy is noted, and your use of the English language to express it is top-notch. Kudos.
Lt, I know you have dogs. I'm sure you've had one or two that have come down with something that's terminal. What do you do with them? Do you let whatever it is take them in it's full due course, or do you put them down at some point?
Explain how she is quitting when there are no effective treatments and she has terminal cancer. She is going to die very soon. Either she will go on her own terms, peacefully, or she will die a much slower, agonizing death. Either way, she's going to die very soon; there's no "quitting" involved.
At least die trying.
The funny thing is, there isn't a month that goes by here that someone doesn't post a mourning of putting their dog down because they didn't want it to suffer any longer.
You only get to die once. I guess I figure you ought to do it the way you see fit. Personally, I hope to go with a hot blonde riding me like a rented mule in my 90's. Barring that, I hope that I have the will to go like a man and not give up or give in until it's all over. She has the misfortune of being in this position and I'll defer to her personal choice as being right for her.
I couldn't agree more, but to make suicide out as an act of valor won't fly with me. We're all gonna die. Those that think they need to kill themselves because life is gonna might tough need to just go ahead and do it.
Lt, I know you have dogs. I'm sure you've had one or two that have come down with something that's terminal. What do you do with them? Do you let whatever it is take them in it's full due course, or do you put them down at some point?
That's completely different. If this woman's family wants her dead, then they need to kill her.
quite a while ago, my best friend, closer than a brother, had cancer. He was on this morphine drip to kill the pain, but not enough. He was basically so bad that he was pooping his insides as they were falling apart. I found out later his wife had found him on the floor looking for his pistol, which she removed. I have that pistol now. He had no hope, no future, and was in tremendous pain. All he wanted was someone to bump the drip, to help him end it. I could not do it, legal considerations aside, because of religious beliefs, and consider myself the coward for not helping my friend in the time of need. I would suggest anyone using terms like quitter, coward, and so on, has never been one on one with these situations, are they wouldn't be so loose with words. In conversation with medical professionals in the retirement area i work, while illegal, if the truth be known m.d.'s have been helping in this area for years with the terminally ill. You can make of it as you will, but it is probably an act of kindness.
Lt, I know you have dogs. I'm sure you've had one or two that have come down with something that's terminal. What do you do with them? Do you let whatever it is take them in it's full due course, or do you put them down at some point?
That's completely different. If this womans family wants her dead, then they need to kill her.
They essentially are putting her down, or allowing her to be put down.
It's not different at all. It's about the choice as to whether to allow a life that you care about to end through pain and suffering, or to end that life when the pain and suffering is avoidable but the soon-to-happen death is not. We put our pets down out of compassion, because we don't want them to suffer. Yet, we call our own "cowards" when they are facing the same fate as those pets and want the same compassionate end we offer/give the pets.
There is no difference in the compassion, but there is in OUR acceptance of it.
quite a while ago, my best friend, closer than a brother, had cancer. He was on this morphine drip to kill the pain, but not enough. He was basically so bad that he was pooping his insides as they were falling apart. I found out later his wife had found him on the floor looking for his pistol, which she removed. I have that pistol now. He had no hope, no future, and was in tremendous pain. All he wanted was someone to bump the drip, to help him end it. I could not do it, legal considerations aside, because of religious beliefs, and consider myself the coward for not helping my friend in the time of need. I would suggest anyone using terms like quitter, coward, and so on, has never been one on one with these situations, are they wouldn't be so loose with words. In conversation with medical professionals in the retirement area i work, while illegal, if the truth be known m.d.'s have been helping in this area for years with the terminally ill. You can make of it as you will, but it is probably an act of kindness.
Excellent post, and I would have no problem being killed.
quite a while ago, my best friend, closer than a brother, had cancer. He was on this morphine drip to kill the pain, but not enough. He was basically so bad that he was pooping his insides as they were falling apart. I found out later his wife had found him on the floor looking for his pistol, which she removed. I have that pistol now. He had no hope, no future, and was in tremendous pain. All he wanted was someone to bump the drip, to help him end it. I could not do it, legal considerations aside, because of religious beliefs, and consider myself the coward for not helping my friend in the time of need. I would suggest anyone using terms like quitter, coward, and so on, has never been one on one with these situations, are they wouldn't be so loose with words. In conversation with medical professionals in the retirement area i work, while illegal, if the truth be known m.d.'s have been helping in this area for years with the terminally ill. You can make of it as you will, but it is probably an act of kindness.
Excellent post, and I would have no problem being killed.
Then, that's what she is doing. She's "being put down", by a doctor (as your pet is with a vet), and by her family as they allow the doctor to administer the dose. The only variation here is that the dose will be swallowed by her instead of injected by the doc.
Lt, I know you have dogs. I'm sure you've had one or two that have come down with something that's terminal. What do you do with them? Do you let whatever it is take them in it's full due course, or do you put them down at some point?
That's completely different. If this womans family wants her dead, then they need to kill her.
They essentially are putting her down, or allowing her to be put down.
It's not different at all. It's about the choice as to whether to allow a life that you care about to end through pain and suffering, or to end that life when the pain and suffering is avoidable but the soon-to-happen death is not. We put our pets down out of compassion, because we don't want them to suffer. Yet, we call our own "cowards" when they are facing the same fate as those pets and want the same compassionate end we offer/give the pets.
There is no difference in the compassion, but there is in OUR acceptance of it.
I have no problem with them killing her if that's what they want to do.
Pat, I have been where you are. I have seen it too. Been in the room and seen the result, tagged the gun, and smelled the smells. You know what I'm talking about.
We just differ on what we see as understandable circumstances.
Lt, I know you have dogs. I'm sure you've had one or two that have come down with something that's terminal. What do you do with them? Do you let whatever it is take them in it's full due course, or do you put them down at some point?
That's completely different. If this womans family wants her dead, then they need to kill her.
They essentially are putting her down, or allowing her to be put down.
It's not different at all. It's about the choice as to whether to allow a life that you care about to end through pain and suffering, or to end that life when the pain and suffering is avoidable but the soon-to-happen death is not. We put our pets down out of compassion, because we don't want them to suffer. Yet, we call our own "cowards" when they are facing the same fate as those pets and want the same compassionate end we offer/give the pets.
There is no difference in the compassion, but there is in OUR acceptance of it.
I have no problem with them killing her if that's what they want to do.
That's essentially what they are doing, by acquiescence, within the legal framework of the state and the nation.
My mom died of cancer. It took about 6 months from diagnosis to death. None of it was good but the last two months were awful. The human part of her was gone, she was just an animal that resembled my mom in pain beyond pain, couldn't talk, just lay there slowly writhing making tortured animal noises 'cause the medications weren't enough to control the pain.
I can't find any fault with anyone who chooses not to go down that path.
My mom died of cancer. It took about 6 months from diagnosis to death. None of it was good but the last two months were awful. The human part of her was gone, she was just an animal that resembled my mom in pain beyond pain, couldn't talk, just lay there slowly writhing making tortured animal noises 'cause the medications weren't enough to control the pain.
I can't find any fault with anyone who chooses not to go down that path.
Tom
Yep, and I will guarantee you that every compassionate fiber of your being wanted to end that suffering for her. But you couldn't. BT/DT.
The only variation here is that the dose will be swallowed by her instead of injected by the doc.
What's she waiting on then? Money from selling her misery? I could understand that...doing whatever you can for you family before you go. Now, THAT would impress me. Especially if she doesn't do it.
The only variation here is that the dose will be swallowed by her instead of injected by the doc.
What's she waiting on then? Money from selling her misery? I could understand that...doing whatever you can for you family before you go. Now, THAT would impress me. Especially if she doesn't do it.
She's putting her choice and her life out there to help others and to make a difference. And, she's waiting to say goodbye to her husband after his birthday.
Would you put your child's pet down on their birthday, or would you wait a day?
You're tying this up with the same bow that rightfully goes on those that are otherwise healthy and decide for selfish reasons to end their life and put their families through Hell because of their selfishness. This is the opposite of that; she is helping her family avoid going through the Hell that is the end of terminal cancer and she's doing it out of compassion and caring.
Armchair quarterbacking someone's life is as wrong as any other instance of speculation on circumstances that haven't been personally experienced. How do people die? How should they die? These are questions that only God can answer. If you don't believe in God, you have a different perspective. I will stick with a belief in God.
There is nothing to tear at your heart, as to have a conversation with your daughter that is battling cancer and have her tell you she doesn't want to die. Being afraid of dying is different. For years we talked about everything, death wasn't something we talked about, but as the years progressed we understood it could shorten her life, substantially.
She was a wonderful person, robbed of one of her most valuable possessions, time. There is nothing fair about cancer and to try and understand it from a human perspective is impossible. I believe in God and that His plan, though different than mine, is somehow better.
We didn't talk about a convenient time for her to end her life, we stood by her and hoped for any miracle that would save her. It never happened and I sat in a hospital room, holding her hand as she took her last breath and cried.
That has been almost 4 years ago, I still cry every day, there is nothing like the loss of a child.
I see two different philosophies here. Some of us want to have absolute control and try to compartmentalize our lives for some satisfaction of control and organization. To those who do that, I am not condemning them, but I feel a stronger association with God and that it isn't up to us to make our lives so convenient that we forget who we are and why we are here.
Cancer is a merciless killer and I can't understand it, I miss Paige every day...
Pat, I have been where you are. I have seen it too. Been in the room and seen the result, tagged the gun, and smelled the smells. You know what I'm talking about.
We just differ on what we see as understandable circumstances.
Funny this post gave me a better idea on pats objection to this, perhaps
Granted its a slippery slope to some
But this dialogue & legal ability to offer the only comfort & dignity for those grievously afflicted is long overdue IMO
Armchair quarterbacking someone's life is as wrong as any other instance of speculation on circumstances that haven't been personally experienced. How do people die? How should they die? These are questions that only God can answer. If you don't believe in God, you have a different perspective. I will stick with a belief in God.
There is nothing to tear at your heart, as to have a conversation with your daughter that is battling cancer and have her tell you she doesn't want to die. Being afraid of dying is different. For years we talked about everything, death wasn't something we talked about, but as the years progressed we understood it could shorten her life, substantially.
She was a wonderful person, robbed of one of her most valuable possessions, time. There is nothing fair about cancer and to try and understand it from a human perspective is impossible. I believe in God and that His plan, though different than mine, is somehow better.
We didn't talk about a convenient time for her to end her life, we stood by her and hoped for any miracle that would save her. It never happened and I sat in a hospital room, holding her hand as she took her last breath and cried.
That has been almost 4 years ago, I still cry every day, there is nothing like the loss of a child.
I see two different philosophies here. Some of us want to have absolute control and try to compartmentalize our lives for some satisfaction of control and organization. To those who do that, I am not condemning them, but I feel a stronger association with God and that it isn't up to us to make our lives so convenient that we forget who we are and why we are here.
Cancer is a merciless killer and I can't understand it, I miss Paige every day...
"I'm sorry for your loss" is pretty hollow. I'll admit I shed a few tears reading that one. God bless you both.
A parent should never have to bury a child, or God forbid watch as one dies. My heart goes out to you, She was a beautiful woman. She also knew you loved her til the end, and beyond. That is all any of us can ask.
If this gal wants her dignity and privacy so bad in her death, why in the hell did she make it a news story. She is a quitter. She is fearfull of pain, she's a coward because of her fear of pain. Looks to be a lot of campfire members who are the same way.
She didn't make it a news story, the media ran with it. Sometimes "a story" does have its benefits when others can reflect and learn. This is one of them.
My most recent experience with death, For whatever reason I know 20 some people that passed from various causes this year, was my uncle of cancer. He was a huge mountain of a man. 6'5" and 310 lbs. He lived his life as he pleased and never once mentioned the Lord in a positive light. Just that he would never be Good enough to receive The Lord's salvation. He did very little treatments for the disease always worried of the cost and did not want to leave my aunt in debt.... He even told my aunt that she needed to find someone to take care of her when he was gone. To make a long story short , in the last weeks of his life he accepted Jesus as his personal savior and also spoke with me about what he believed all his life was Wrong... He realized that when we are weak , God is strong. Facing terminal illness that would take months he felt strong in the Lord's Love for the first time in his life. Two days later he had a stroke and entered the Lord's presence. In relative peace and comfort. Life is a God given gift, If we chose to end it early for any reason whether it is from health concerns or stressful life or whatever we are going against God's plan... This woman's decision is a purely selfish decision that is made even more crazy by her need to be in magazine articles and tv. She is doing a bucket list of things all along with cameras following. If her decision is so personal and hers alone then leave the cameras behind. These are just my opinions and from a Christian bias, but She never gave God a chance to work in her life and He will not be there in the end for her........
If this gal wants her dignity and privacy so bad in her death, why in the hell did she make it a news story. She is a quitter. She is fearfull of pain, she's a coward because of her fear of pain. Looks to be a lot of campfire members who are the same way.
Remember that the next time you have a dog dying. Or, the next time you have a family member dying slowly and painfully. You'd best not consider putting that dog down or wishing you could end the pain and suffering of that family member.
My most recent experience with death, For whatever reason I know 20 some people that passed from various causes this year, was my uncle of cancer. He was a huge mountain of a man. 6'5" and 310 lbs. He lived his life as he pleased and never once mentioned the Lord in a positive light. Just that he would never be Good enough to receive The Lord's salvation. He did very little treatments for the disease always worried of the cost and did not want to leave my aunt in debt.... He even told my aunt that she needed to find someone to take care of her when he was gone. To make a long story short , in the last weeks of his life he accepted Jesus as his personal savior and also spoke with me about what he believed all his life was Wrong... He realized that when we are weak , God is strong. Facing terminal illness that would take months he felt strong in the Lord's Love for the first time in his life. Two days later he had a stroke and entered the Lord's presence. In relative peace and comfort. Life is a God given gift, If we chose to end it early for any reason whether it is from health concerns or stressful life or whatever we are going against God's plan... This woman's decision is a purely selfish decision that is made even more crazy by her need to be in magazine articles and tv. She is doing a bucket list of things all along with cameras following. If her decision is so personal and hers alone then leave the cameras behind. These are just my opinions and from a Christian bias, but She never gave God a chance to work in her life and He will not be there in the end for her........
If this gal wants her dignity and privacy so bad in her death, why in the hell did she make it a news story. She is a quitter. She is fearfull of pain, she's a coward because of her fear of pain. Looks to be a lot of campfire members who are the same way.
At least they are not elevating themselves to be as judgmental as some are.
If this gal wants her dignity and privacy so bad in her death, why in the hell did she make it a news story. She is a quitter. She is fearfull of pain, she's a coward because of her fear of pain. Looks to be a lot of campfire members who are the same way.
At least they are not elevating themselves to be as judgmental as some are.
Last I heard, that was God's job.
Hush now. The Baptist Taliban has arrived, and the mullahs are speaking.
If this gal wants her dignity and privacy so bad in her death, why in the hell did she make it a news story. She is a quitter. She is fearfull of pain, she's a coward because of her fear of pain. Looks to be a lot of campfire members who are the same way.
And I assume, that faced with the prospect of a certain, painful death, that you would surely take the high road? Don't be so quick to condemn the decisions that others make until you are in the exact same situation. I'd also bet that she wasn't the one that made it a news story.
She didn't make it a news story, the media ran with it. Sometimes "a story" does have its benefits when others can reflect and learn. This is one of them.
Quote--�The seizure was a harsh reminder that my symptoms continue to worsen as the tumor runs its course,� she wrote. That�s why she said she has been using her final days to advocate for death-with-dignity laws. �My dream is that every terminally ill American has access to the choice to die on their own terms with dignity.�
If this gal wants her dignity and privacy so bad in her death, why in the hell did she make it a news story. She is a quitter. She is fearfull of pain, she's a coward because of her fear of pain. Looks to be a lot of campfire members who are the same way.
Remember that the next time you have a dog dying. Or, the next time you have a family member dying slowly and painfully. You'd best not consider putting that dog down or wishing you could end the pain and suffering of that family member.
Dad, Mom and aunt all died of cancer. I know what what cancer does to people. 24 hours ago a good friend died of brain cancer.
If this gal wants her dignity and privacy so bad in her death, why in the hell did she make it a news story. She is a quitter. She is fearfull of pain, she's a coward because of her fear of pain. Looks to be a lot of campfire members who are the same way.
At least they are not elevating themselves to be as judgmental as some are.
Last I heard, that was God's job.
Hush now. The Baptist Taliban has arrived, and the mullahs are speaking.
If this gal wants her dignity and privacy so bad in her death, why in the hell did she make it a news story. She is a quitter. She is fearfull of pain, she's a coward because of her fear of pain. Looks to be a lot of campfire members who are the same way.
Remember that the next time you have a dog dying. Or, the next time you have a family member dying slowly and painfully. You'd best not consider putting that dog down or wishing you could end the pain and suffering of that family member.
Dad, Mom and aunt all died of cancer. I know what what cancer does to people. 24 hours ago a good friend died of brain cancer.
None committed an early suicide death.
Great. That was their choice. They were all terminal.
Tell me, what did that last run of pain and suffering get them that they couldn't have had (other than a hell of a lot of pain and suffering for themselves and their families) had they stepped out just prior to the nasty end stage coming on?
If this gal wants her dignity and privacy so bad in her death, why in the hell did she make it a news story. She is a quitter. She is fearfull of pain, she's a coward because of her fear of pain. Looks to be a lot of campfire members who are the same way.
At least they are not elevating themselves to be as judgmental as some are.
Last I heard, that was God's job.
Hush now. The Baptist Taliban has arrived, and the mullahs are speaking.
So you two are not judging anyone?
Nope. I was having a pretty decent conversation with a good friend (the Lt) without any religious context. I simply recognized to rockinbbar when it was time for us to pipe down as the Baptist Taliban had arrived. As we've been told time and again, we're not worthy to discuss topics that said mullahs decree as territory only for the annointed.
I have been intimately familiar with many suicides. In every case, the "victim" believed they were doing the right thing. In no case, did it ever help a survivor.
I have been intimately familiar with many suicides. In every case, the "victim" believed they were doing the right thing. In no case, did it ever help a survivor.
I have been intimately familiar with many suicides. In every case, the "victim" believed they were doing the right thing. In no case, did it ever help a survivor.
please explain the moral obligations of a terminal cancer patient to "help the survivors".
I watched my father die of cancer, and he had the choice of physician assisted suicide. Had he chosen that, I would have stood by him as much as I did when he didn't. It was no longer his job to "help me".
Great. That was their choice. They were all terminal.
Tell me, what did that last run of pain and suffering get them that they couldn't have had (other than a hell of a lot of pain and suffering for themselves and their families) had they stepped out just prior to the nasty end stage coming on?
Some people have what it takes to live as long as they can. Some people don't.
Some people can take pain. Some people "fear" pain of any kind. That little lady is one of these. So let her end her life. Sure don't admire her for a thing in her short young life.
Great. That was their choice. They were all terminal.
Tell me, what did that last run of pain and suffering get them that they couldn't have had (other than a hell of a lot of pain and suffering for themselves and their families) had they stepped out just prior to the nasty end stage coming on?
Some people have what it takes to live as long as they can. Some people don't.
Some people can take pain. Some people "fear" pain of any kind. That little lady is one of these. So let her end her life. Sure don't admire her for a thing in her short young life.
Lots of drugs to prevent pain in this country.
You didn't answer the question. What did they get out of that final, nasty end that they could not have gotten otherwise? A few "days" more on the headstone, but what else?
As for drugs for pain, yep, you're right and "the opiate for the masses" is widely abused.
I have been intimately familiar with many suicides. In every case, the "victim" believed they were doing the right thing. In no case, did it ever help a survivor.
Apples; oranges.
Only in your opinion 4 ager. The young lady is going to end her life, is that not suicide? She's going to do it early. Death by taking pills to end your life, what's that?
I never said it wasn't technically suicide. I said it wasn't the same. Explain to me how the survivors/family will benefit from watching her waste away, in agony, losing everything that is "her" along the way until she's just (as T_O_M put it) "an animal that sort of looks like her, writhing in pain and making animal noises" by the end. What do they gain from that? What does she get that she couldn't otherwise have gotten?
quite a while ago, my best friend, closer than a brother, had cancer. He was on this morphine drip to kill the pain, but not enough. He was basically so bad that he was pooping his insides as they were falling apart. I found out later his wife had found him on the floor looking for his pistol, which she removed. I have that pistol now. He had no hope, no future, and was in tremendous pain. All he wanted was someone to bump the drip, to help him end it. I could not do it, legal considerations aside, because of religious beliefs, and consider myself the coward for not helping my friend in the time of need. I would suggest anyone using terms like quitter, coward, and so on, has never been one on one with these situations, are they wouldn't be so loose with words. In conversation with medical professionals in the retirement area i work, while illegal, if the truth be known m.d.'s have been helping in this area for years with the terminally ill. You can make of it as you will, but it is probably an act of kindness.
Only in your opinion 4 ager. The young lady is going to end her life, is that not suicide? She's going to do it early. Death by taking pills to end your life, what's that?
So, is shooting and killing an armed intruder holding your family at gunpoint, the same as shooting your wife as she's cooking dinner?
Sometimes that isn't even an option. My bosses wife died of gall bladder cancer a few years ago. He describes her end as horrific and agonizing. I don't remember the details but he told me that hospice would not give her the pain medication that she needed, for fear that it would kill her. I seem to also recall that he said that it was very difficult to deliver the pain meds due to the damage that the chemo had done and her inability to swallow. I think that they were giving her methadone via suppositories.
"I couldn't agree more, but to make suicide out as an act of valor won't fly with me."
If this was a story about a terminally wounded US serviceman or a LEO,who knew he couldn't survive the wound,and decided to either stay behind to let his buddies escape or rush the bad guys to draw fire,you would not express admiration for their bravery or valor? Just by definition,this would be suicide. Would you call them quitters?
Mom got 18 years with cancer, two year after nothing we can do for you Dad got 2 years with cancer, 6 months after nothing we can do for you. Aunt had cancer for 14 years, two after the nothing we can do for you. What did we get, plenty of time to visit, plenty of time to talk about past history, a smile and hugs. They could and did handle all to the end of their lives. They didn't fear pain as this young lady does. She not real tough so she's going to end it early so I don't have to go through any pain, the new generation. What did we get, time and time is important.
Sometimes that isn't even an option. My bosses wife died of gall bladder cancer a few years ago. He describes her end as horrific and agonizing. I don't remember the details but he told me that hospice would not give her the pain medication that she needed, for fear that it would kill her. I seem to also recall that he said that it was very difficult to deliver the pain meds due to the damage that the chemo had done and her inability to swallow. I think that they were giving her methadone via suppositories.
My father had congestive heart failure, and hospice was called.
In his last days it wasn't pretty. He was in increasing agony as his organs shut down and died within his body.
Hospice was administering morphine. The nurse left for the night, and me and my brothers had to watch and listen as he moaned, screamed and was in misery, and was in a state of unconsciousness, that only the horrific pain was able to penetrate.
The nurse from hospice came in the morning.
I described what he went through the previous night, and told her to "give him enough to make the pain stop". She understood.
I never said it wasn't technically suicide. I said it wasn't the same. Explain to me how the survivors/family will benefit from watching her waste away, in agony, losing everything that is "her" along the way until she's just (as T_O_M put it) "an animal that sort of looks like her, writhing in pain and making animal noises" by the end. What do they gain from that? What does she get that she couldn't otherwise have gotten?
That's not the way it works 4ager. Ask the many cancer ridden people on this site.
Sometimes that isn't even an option. My bosses wife died of gall bladder cancer a few years ago. He describes her end as horrific and agonizing. I don't remember the details but he told me that hospice would not give her the pain medication that she needed, for fear that it would kill her. I seem to also recall that he said that it was very difficult to deliver the pain meds due to the damage that the chemo had done and her inability to swallow. I think that they were giving her methadone via suppositories.
That's something cause hospice dumps the morphine on you out here to stop pain.
Mom got 18 years with cancer, two year after nothing we can do for you Dad got 2 years with cancer, 6 months after nothing we can do for you. Aunt had cancer for 14 years, two after the nothing we can do for you. What did we get, plenty of time to visit, plenty of time to talk about past history, a smile and hugs. They could and did handle all to the end of their lives. They didn't fear pain as this young lady does. She not real tough so she's going to end it early so I don't have to go through any pain, the new generation. What did we get, time and time is important.
Time is important, if you can make something of it. Time for the sake of time alone is nothing. I know many a person who has years logged, but not a life lived.
You seem stuck on "tough". Whatever that is to you, it seems the most important. To others, other things are more important, like quality time and experiences with friends and family, and saving friends, family, and those we love from unnecessary pain and suffering.
My grandfather was "alive", sort of, right up to the end. The last 4 months were just and only that; alive. His mind was gone, he didn't know who he was or who any of us were. Yeah, he was "tough", and he was "alive", but he was gone. Then, we got to sit there and watch as the pain wracked his body for the last few weeks. He was gone, but that body that remained suffered horribly. We all got something out of that time "together", I can assure you.
I wonder, is it suicide to stay and fight out an enemy when you know you'll die or have been wounded that MIGHT not be fatal if you leave? By definition, it would seem to be. Would those that do, then, not be "tough" enough to merit respect? Or, what about those that have a DNR or "no heroic measures" or similar medical directive? By definition, their restraint on rescuers would be suicide, because they might be saved (to some degree, even if in a vegetative state). Are they then cowards, too, and not "tough" enough?
You sure do have a mighty fine high horse upon which to sit whilst you judge, though. The view must be great up there.
Sometimes that isn't even an option. My bosses wife died of gall bladder cancer a few years ago. He describes her end as horrific and agonizing. I don't remember the details but he told me that hospice would not give her the pain medication that she needed, for fear that it would kill her. I seem to also recall that he said that it was very difficult to deliver the pain meds due to the damage that the chemo had done and her inability to swallow. I think that they were giving her methadone via suppositories.
That's something cause hospice dumps the morphine on you out here to stop pain.
I never said it wasn't technically suicide. I said it wasn't the same. Explain to me how the survivors/family will benefit from watching her waste away, in agony, losing everything that is "her" along the way until she's just (as T_O_M put it) "an animal that sort of looks like her, writhing in pain and making animal noises" by the end. What do they gain from that? What does she get that she couldn't otherwise have gotten?
That's not the way it works 4ager. Ask the many cancer ridden people on this site.
It depends entirely on the cancer. It can certainly be the way that it works. I've seen it firsthand.
When I went overseas as a contractor, there were a lot of contractors getting captured and slowly beheaded with a dull knife on film for their families to see.
I promised myself that no matter what, my family would never have to live with watching that happen to me.
Well pain takes being tough. Let's go back to your grandad, guess he had something other then cancer. You think we should start putting down these people? Is that what your saying? Cause it was hard on you and your family, you guys suffered so let's stop our suffering. That's what it does sound like.
This girl moved to a state so she could what, take some pills and kill herself. Is that what this world is coming too? Why, cause she doesn't want to suffer and fears to suffer.
That's not the way it works 4ager. Ask the many cancer ridden people on this site.
You happen to be talking with one that has looked the grim reaper in the eyes.
Last Thanksgiving, after feeling very bad for over a year, I started coughing up blood. Not a little stripe of red, but after I was done, it looked like someone had gutted a deer... It gets your attention, rather well.
My initial doctor visit, and combined with 35 years of smoking, they told me of the distinct possibility of having advanced lung cancer, for which there is no cure.
I had those possibilities to consider. Seriously.
After I was admitted, and went through the whole plethora of what was "going on", they found that my main artery in my heart was 99.9% blocked, and did emergency catheterization on me, with a stent.
My heart was enlarged, and caused pressure in my chest to precipitate the coughing of blood. I had also experienced a total of 4 heart attacks until the procedure saved my life.
So, I was faced with thinking about the terminal effects of advanced lung cancer, and saw what a death by it meant, through stories of others.
I don't smoke any more. I eat healthier, and I am grateful that I didn't have to endure what death awaited me with lung cancer. And while I had already made up my mind not to pursue treatments that would only "prolong" my life for a few short, months, I had not made the decision to take my own life either.
I don't judge those that ought to have the freedom to make their own choices. Those choices are between them and God.
Well pain takes being tough. Let's go back to your grandad, guess he had something other then cancer. You think we should start putting down these people? Is that what your saying? Cause it was hard on you and your family, you guys suffered so let's stop our suffering. That's what it does sound like.
This girl moved to a state so she could what, take some pills and kill herself. Is that what this world is coming too? Why, cause she doesn't want to suffer and fears to suffer.
He beat cancer. He had something else. I would have GLADLY ended his suffering, but for the laws in this state. I heard him many times over say that he hoped that if he ever got like that (and he did), that we'd be able to put him down and show him the same compassion we showed our animals. We couldn't do that, legally. What we did do, though, was work to make sure that he got all the morphine he could legally get as often and as quickly as he could receive it.
I have had other relatives die of cancer, as well as friends. I know what it can look like and what that brings.
Being "tough" and suffering through something can sometimes be just that, "tough". It can also be cowardly to do so, when the other option scares you more (death). I'd say that she's not scared of death nearly as much as it seems that some other folks are. She's going to die, very soon. She's accepted that fact. Other folks can't accept that themselves. So, who is "tough"?
I also see you refuse to address the other suicide option being discussed. Why is that? Is it because you'd have to admit that they might be "tough", even if their actions cause their own deaths? Hmmm... Being "tough" isn't so cut and dried, is it?
Sometimes that isn't even an option. My bosses wife died of gall bladder cancer a few years ago. He describes her end as horrific and agonizing. I don't remember the details but he told me that hospice would not give her the pain medication that she needed, for fear that it would kill her. I seem to also recall that he said that it was very difficult to deliver the pain meds due to the damage that the chemo had done and her inability to swallow. I think that they were giving her methadone via suppositories.
That's something cause hospice dumps the morphine on you out here to stop pain.
I don't recall the details and your experience with hospice is similar to mine.
But, and I don't recall the details, I remember him saying that she wasn't on morphine and they couldn't give her enough methadone without killing her.
He's a pretty pragmatic guy and was arguing that it didn't matter at that point. But they wouldn't do it. One thing different from her case vs. my family's experience was that she wasn't at home, but in a nursing home type facility.
Her life, her choice. She isn't a hero or a coward. She is scared of suffering, and scared of the suffering that she will put her family through. She is just a girl who has been dealt a [bleep] hand, and that is about the end of it. I don't admire her, I pity her.
Her life, her choice. She isn't a hero or a coward. She is scared of suffering, and scared of the suffering that she will put her family through. She is just a girl who has been dealt a [bleep] hand, and that is about the end of it. I don't admire her, I pity her.
Armchair quarterbacking someone's life is as wrong as any other instance of speculation on circumstances that haven't been personally experienced. How do people die? How should they die? These are questions that only God can answer. If you don't believe in God, you have a different perspective. I will stick with a belief in God.
There is nothing to tear at your heart, as to have a conversation with your daughter that is battling cancer and have her tell you she doesn't want to die. Being afraid of dying is different. For years we talked about everything, death wasn't something we talked about, but as the years progressed we understood it could shorten her life, substantially.
She was a wonderful person, robbed of one of her most valuable possessions, time. There is nothing fair about cancer and to try and understand it from a human perspective is impossible. I believe in God and that His plan, though different than mine, is somehow better.
We didn't talk about a convenient time for her to end her life, we stood by her and hoped for any miracle that would save her. It never happened and I sat in a hospital room, holding her hand as she took her last breath and cried.
That has been almost 4 years ago, I still cry every day, there is nothing like the loss of a child.
I see two different philosophies here. Some of us want to have absolute control and try to compartmentalize our lives for some satisfaction of control and organization. To those who do that, I am not condemning them, but I feel a stronger association with God and that it isn't up to us to make our lives so convenient that we forget who we are and why we are here.
Cancer is a merciless killer and I can't understand it, I miss Paige every day...
about ten years ago, i watched my mother die a slow death. Then 3months later it was my son's turn. A victim of downwinders, i.e. govt testing of nuclear bombs in nevada, and blowover radiation into arizona, and he died of cancer. That day i called up to prescott, sensed it was time and got there just in time to hold his hand and whisper in his ear, just let go, let it get done. About 30seconds later, he died. I watched him suffer with that cancer for months. He died about four days before the 4th of july, so you can imagine how our fourth's go these days. People shouldn't outlive their kids. Ronnie was my stepson. A couple of months before he died we were having this conversation, I never knew what to call him, son, friend, buddy, he was all of these. He gave me then the biggest compliment i ever got, and said i was always there for him, unlike his biological dad, so "dad" worked for him. I miss him to this day. Tomorrow I will be up where we always deer hunted, and i will do like I do every year, stop by the place he liked to camp and remember. Cancer is an evil thing, and I don't have good answers except i don't blame anyone that wants to end the pain. I remember that last elk hunt he tried to do. He did the walking and so on, but would be screaming at night from the pain. It isn't fun to be in a camp listening to your son cry out like that and not a damn thing you can do. I do know if he had chosen to take his own life, none of us, and I mean none, would have blamed him.
The amount of powerful drugs required to control the pain that many of these unfortunate people have renders them unable to interact with their loved ones because it decreases their level of consciousness so much. It also suppresses their respirations to the degree that they are struggling to breathe...often they are just barely breathing...like a fish out of water. They become incontinent of urine, they become incontinent of stool. They can't even manage their own secretions in their mouth...much less eat or drink anything.
The amount of powerful drugs required to control the pain that many of these unfortunate people have renders them unable to interact with their loved ones because it decreases their level of consciousness so much. It also suppresses their respirations to the degree that they are struggling to breathe...often they are just barely breathing...like a fish out of water. They become incontinent of urine, they become incontinent of stool. They can't even manage their own secretions in their mouth...much less eat or drink anything.
absolutely the truth i remember using a cotton swab to put that stuff under my son's tongue.
The amount of powerful drugs required to control the pain that many of these unfortunate people have renders them unable to interact with their loved ones because it decreases their level of consciousness so much. It also suppresses their respirations to the degree that they are struggling to breathe...often they are just barely breathing...like a fish out of water. They become incontinent of urine, they become incontinent of stool. They can't even manage their own secretions in their mouth...much less eat or drink anything.
That's a true statement so out here they just give them a little more.
I have no problem with them killing her if that's what they want to do.
Let me see if I can understand this. You are against physician assisted suicide for terminally ill persons but you are all for murder of terminally ill persons. OOOOOOOkay.
My wife was diagnosed with stage 4 breast cancer. She didn't suffer to much at first. She didn't like it much when the doctor said "My plan is not to cure you My plan is to make you comfortable. " She spent 16 months wondering how much time she had left. The last few weeks were tough She was on morphine because bone cancer is very painful. One of the nurses at the hospice house explained to me that the actual cause of death is overdose of morphine which the family had to beg for. Nobody wants to watch a family member suffer. I don't judge anyone who wants to avoid that. whelennut
My wife died three years ago from stage 4 breast cancer. She was given morphine to deaden the pain. Her family kept begging the nurses to give her more so she wouldn't suffer. The nurses thought she would die soon after she quit eating and drinking but they were wrong.
I hope I never have to watch somebody that I love go through that again. whelennut
She not real tough so she's going to end it early so I don't have to go through any pain, the new generation.
Not so. From the article: �bone-splitting� headaches, seizures and �moments when I�m looking at my husband�s face and I can�t think of his name.�
From what I have noted the last 60 or so years, is everyone is different. And pain levels with different terminal illnesses are also different.
I'm glad to see most don't have a problem letting this unfortunate young lady handle her life, and death, in the best (for her) way she sees fit. And I hope she will never read this thread.
That's not the way it works 4ager. Ask the many cancer ridden people on this site.
You happen to be talking with one that has looked the grim reaper in the eyes.
Last Thanksgiving, after feeling very bad for over a year, I started coughing up blood. Not a little stripe of red, but after I was done, it looked like someone had gutted a deer... It gets your attention, rather well.
My initial doctor visit, and combined with 35 years of smoking, they told me of the distinct possibility of having advanced lung cancer, for which there is no cure.
I had those possibilities to consider. Seriously.
After I was admitted, and went through the whole plethora of what was "going on", they found that my main artery in my heart was 99.9% blocked, and did emergency catheterization on me, with a stent.
My heart was enlarged, and caused pressure in my chest to precipitate the coughing of blood. I had also experienced a total of 4 heart attacks until the procedure saved my life.
So, I was faced with thinking about the terminal effects of advanced lung cancer, and saw what a death by it meant, through stories of others.
I don't smoke any more. I eat healthier, and I am grateful that I didn't have to endure what death awaited me with lung cancer. And while I had already made up my mind not to pursue treatments that would only "prolong" my life for a few short, months, I had not made the decision to take my own life either.
I don't judge those that ought to have the freedom to make their own choices. Those choices are between them and God.
You the man. Sure glad everything has worked out for you. You are one of the better educated people on here.
Each person has to face their own choices for themselves.
about ten years ago, i watched my mother die a slow death. Then 3months later it was my son's turn. A victim of downwinders, i.e. govt testing of nuclear bombs in nevada, and blowover radiation into arizona, and he died of cancer. That day i called up to prescott, sensed it was time and got there just in time to hold his hand and whisper in his ear, just let go, let it get done. About 30seconds later, he died. I watched him suffer with that cancer for months. He died about four days before the 4th of july, so you can imagine how our fourth's go these days. People shouldn't outlive their kids. Ronnie was my stepson. A couple of months before he died we were having this conversation, I never knew what to call him, son, friend, buddy, he was all of these. He gave me then the biggest compliment i ever got, and said i was always there for him, unlike his biological dad, so "dad" worked for him. I miss him to this day. Tomorrow I will be up where we always deer hunted, and i will do like I do every year, stop by the place he liked to camp and remember. Cancer is an evil thing, and I don't have good answers except i don't blame anyone that wants to end the pain. I remember that last elk hunt he tried to do. He did the walking and so on, but would be screaming at night from the pain. It isn't fun to be in a camp listening to your son cry out like that and not a damn thing you can do. I do know if he had chosen to take his own life, none of us, and I mean none, would have blamed him.
Sorry for the loss of your son. It's always tough when the children go first.
My wife died three years ago from stage 4 breast cancer. She was given morphine to deaden the pain. Her family kept begging the nurses to give her more so she wouldn't suffer. The nurses thought she would die soon after she quit eating and drinking but they were wrong.
I hope I never have to watch somebody that I love go through that again. whelennut
She not real tough so she's going to end it early so I don't have to go through any pain, the new generation.
Not so. From the article: �bone-splitting� headaches, seizures and �moments when I�m looking at my husband�s face and I can�t think of his name.�
From what I have noted the last 60 or so years, is everyone is different. And pain levels with different terminal illnesses are also different.
I'm glad to see most don't have a problem letting this unfortunate young lady handle her life, and death, in the best (for her) way she sees fit. And I hope she will never read this thread.
I admire her, and her family, too. I've been involved in health care too long. I've seen the side where there is nothing that can be done, but the family insists on putting the patient through all manner of torture to "extend" his or her life. And they always manage to find a doc that's willing to take the money. In many cases, the patient is too sick to offer firm resistance, or just wants to go along. With torture? I'll be damned if I'll do that to my family. Dad got his diagnosis of terminal lung CA almost 23yrs ago. "Do everything or do nothing." A month to a year. He went home and had a beer, and died a month later, at home where he wanted to be. Not being poked, prodded, violently ill from chemo or burned by radiation. This girl's made a sound decision. Prayers for her and her family.
Last spring I went down to help my brother as we watched his wife die of cancer. This after he went through the same thing with our mom the year before, and our dad six years before that. Our dad had them pull his feeding tube, still took him several days to die at 80 years old and looking like a prisoner from Auschwiz.
If you've never seen someone die of cancer, it's pretty easy to say they are giving up the fight or wimping out. If you've gone though it, you might have a different perspective.
Our medical profession does a wonderful job keeping people "alive" when there is 0 quality of life. Palliative care is sorely lacking.
There's a fine line between providing a fatal dose of a pain killer, and doctor assisted suicide.
For those condemning her actions, I pray you never have to see a loved one go through the agony of terminal cancer.
Not trying to pick a fight, just curious. For those who oppose her making her decision, do you also oppose pain meds? Wouldn't the pain be God's plan as well? Is it OK to medicate to unconsciousness but not death? Where exactly is that line? Should they just gut it up and refuse all medications?
Oh yeah.. I would definitely want my family to use every resource (empty the bank accounts and sell all the houses and cars) to make sure I have every second of life. They can get by after I'm gone ......somehow. (sarc off)
Her life, her choice. She isn't a hero or a coward. She is scared of suffering, and scared of the suffering that she will put her family through. She is just a girl who has been dealt a [bleep] hand, and that is about the end of it. I don't admire her, I pity her.
Not trying to pick a fight, just curious. For those who oppose her making her decision, do you also oppose pain meds? Wouldn't the pain be God's plan as well? Is it OK to medicate to unconsciousness but not death? Where exactly is that line? Should they just gut it up and refuse all medications?
No fight--not at all, all the pain meds she wants, even the blue pill of death if that's what she wants. Go for it gal. Even use a pistol or rifle.
But my above link some think she not go to use the blue pill of death on Sat. Maybe the pains not quite that bad yet. Maybe she still wants to live a while longer. She got a lot of money sent to her, maybe she wants to spend it. No telling with todays young crowd.
Armchair quarterbacking someone's life is as wrong as any other instance of speculation on circumstances that haven't been personally experienced. How do people die? How should they die? These are questions that only God can answer. If you don't believe in God, you have a different perspective. I will stick with a belief in God.
There is nothing to tear at your heart, as to have a conversation with your daughter that is battling cancer and have her tell you she doesn't want to die. Being afraid of dying is different. For years we talked about everything, death wasn't something we talked about, but as the years progressed we understood it could shorten her life, substantially.
She was a wonderful person, robbed of one of her most valuable possessions, time. There is nothing fair about cancer and to try and understand it from a human perspective is impossible. I believe in God and that His plan, though different than mine, is somehow better.
We didn't talk about a convenient time for her to end her life, we stood by her and hoped for any miracle that would save her. It never happened and I sat in a hospital room, holding her hand as she took her last breath and cried.
That has been almost 4 years ago, I still cry every day, there is nothing like the loss of a child.
I see two different philosophies here. Some of us want to have absolute control and try to compartmentalize our lives for some satisfaction of control and organization. To those who do that, I am not condemning them, but I feel a stronger association with God and that it isn't up to us to make our lives so convenient that we forget who we are and why we are here.
Cancer is a merciless killer and I can't understand it, I miss Paige every day...
Schrapnel,
I was looking for the words to respond to this thread and you did a better job than I ever could have done. We lost our son and only child three years ago tomorrow, to cancer. He was 40 at the time of his passing. He was actually my step son but I never had any children of my own and he and I were very close.
Cancer is an insidious disease and nothing can prepare a family for its affect on their lives and the loss of a child to cancer is a blow no parent should suffer. God showed me a level of strength and faith in my wife I never would have seen otherwise. She was strong beyond anything I could have imagined. She and our daughter in law cared for him in his last days at home and both were with him when he passed. Etta's faith never wavered during this ordeal.
I spent some time mad at God for letting my wife suffer the loss of her child. But when we had his memorial service and I saw the number of people his life touched I realized he blessed a lot of lives and those lives blessed ours in our grief. Thanks Schrapnel for sharing.
I'm not judging her heart; God will do that. It's very sad situation and I can empathize with her plight and even understand her decision if she is not a Christian which I expect she is not.
What unbelievers fail to grasp (and even many Christians), is that in the context of Biblical teaching, this life will be difficult; and that God allows these devastating trials and tribulations for our good, for our sanctification - refinement by fire so to speak.
I believe God allows special grace and peace to those who believe and trust in Him fully while in the deepest of valleys, particularly imminent death. How else can one explain second century saints singing hymns while being burned at the stake, or calmly being mauled to death by wild beasts in the Roman coliseums.
Lastly, taking ones life, God-given, purposely is suicide regardless of the semantics the law tags it with and the circumstances involved. Suicide is self-murder, Which I believe is morally wrong and a sin. Not an unforgivable sin but a sin nevertheless.
Furthermore, assuming she is an unbeliever, this life is all there is before an eternity of judgement. And she at her young age is intent on giving up days, or weeks (?) of her very short life wherein she might find the God who is ever ready to answer and grant her that peace, grace, and very much more.
With your medical background, I'm very surprised at the reasoning (or lack of it) behind your post. You 'assume' something that you shouldn't (about her not being a Christian). Although God "will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear", He certainly will let you suffer beyond what you can bear.
Suicide is someone trying to escape a gambling debt, or Someone who's heart was just broken by a loved one, Depression and such.These people often have ways to recover and live longer lives..
Terminal Cancer with no chance of Recovery is far from Suicide. If she ends her life while trying to keep some sort of Dignity, I'll think no less of her.
She was dealt a crap hand, she can decide when to fold.
With your medical background, I'm very surprised at the reasoning (or lack of it) behind your post. You 'assume' something that you shouldn't (about her not being a Christian). Although God "will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear", He certainly will let you suffer beyond what you can bear.
Antlers, I provided exact reasoning. As to "not letting you suffer beyond what you can bear," that is also to my point: how do you know what you cannot bear if you end your life? That is the point of God's grace and peace to those who look to him in "those moments," as exemplified by the martyrs mentioned and countless others through time who have relied on him to the end.
Additionally, short of so-called euthanasia, there are supportive measures that do not end life but help as life ends.
I am not judging her heart or that of any others who choose this route including those who are Christians. I just hold a different view. I have a living will that should I come down with a devastating, fatal disease, I would not choose this route; however, I would not want extreme or extraordinary, costly measures either. I would do, hopefully, as a neighbor friend did before he died from melanoma, submit to experimental treatments in the hope of helping the next person.
Suicide is someone trying to escape a gambling debt, or Someone who's heart was just broken by a loved one, Depression and such.These people often have ways to recover and live longer lives..
Terminal Cancer with no chance of Recovery is far from Suicide. If she ends her life while trying to keep some sort of Dignity, I'll think no less of her.
She was dealt a crap hand, she can decide when to fold.
I admire her, and her family, too. I've been involved in health care too long. I've seen the side where there is nothing that can be done, but the family insists on putting the patient through all manner of torture to "extend" his or her life. And they always manage to find a doc that's willing to take the money. In many cases, the patient is too sick to offer firm resistance, or just wants to go along. With torture? I'll be damned if I'll do that to my family. Dad got his diagnosis of terminal lung CA almost 23yrs ago. "Do everything or do nothing." A month to a year. He went home and had a beer, and died a month later, at home where he wanted to be. Not being poked, prodded, violently ill from chemo or burned by radiation. This girl's made a sound decision. Prayers for her and her family.
My brother has talked about that to in the past. He said he has seen where wealthy old people are kept alive until the money runs out and than suddenly the old person dies.
I'm not judging her heart; God will do that. It's very sad situation and I can empathize with her plight and even understand her decision if she is not a Christian which I expect she is not.
What unbelievers fail to grasp (and even many Christians), is that in the context of Biblical teaching, this life will be difficult; and that God allows these devastating trials and tribulations for our good, for our sanctification - refinement by fire so to speak.
I believe God allows special grace and peace to those who believe and trust in Him fully while in the deepest of valleys, particularly imminent death. How else can one explain second century saints singing hymns while being burned at the stake, or calmly being mauled to death by wild beasts in the Roman coliseums.
Lastly, taking ones life, God-given, purposely is suicide regardless of the semantics the law tags it with and the circumstances involved. Suicide is self-murder, Which I believe is morally wrong and a sin. Not an unforgivable sin but a sin nevertheless.
Furthermore, assuming she is an unbeliever, this life is all there is before an eternity of judgement. And she at her young age is intent on giving up days, or weeks (?) of her very short life wherein she might find the God who is ever ready to answer and grant her that peace, grace, and very much more.
That's all fine and dandy back in the day but today I don't want to have a terminal illness that will leave my wife in poverty with a tin cup on the corner begging for a hand out because I was going to stay alive no matter what it cost for as long as possible and then die anyway.
To me that's more of a sin then ending my life before the money runs out. To each his own.
With your medical background, I'm very surprised at the reasoning (or lack of it) behind your post. You 'assume' something that you shouldn't (about her not being a Christian). Although God "will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear", He certainly will let you suffer beyond what you can bear.
Antlers, I provided exact reasoning. As to "not letting you suffer beyond what you can bear," that is also to my point: how do you know what you cannot bear if you end your life? That is the point of God's grace and peace to those who look to him in "those moments," as exemplified by the martyrs mentioned and countless others through time who have relied on him to the end.
Additionally, short of so-called euthanasia, there are supportive measures that do not end life but help as life ends.
I am not judging her heart or that of any others who choose this route including those who are Christians. I just hold a different view. I have a living will that should I come down with a devastating, fatal disease, I would not choose this route; however, I would not want extreme or extraordinary, costly measures either. I would do, hopefully, as a neighbor friend did before he died from melanoma, submit to experimental treatments in the hope of helping the next person.
I don't about you but I know how much pain I can bear which is about a five or six on the pain scale.
Explain how she is quitting when there are no effective treatments and she has terminal cancer. She is going to die very soon. Either she will go on her own terms, peacefully, or she will die a much slower, agonizing death. Either way, she's going to die very soon; there's no "quitting" involved.
At least die trying.
You are a complete piece of [bleep] dogchit, You [bleep] i bet you've never had someone close to you die of cancer, I lost my dad in 06 after taking care of him for 18mos while he died of brain cancer, i garauntee you have no damn;d idea the hell that brain cancer causes for people that have it, i hope you rot in hell, or get shot by some illegal, get [bleep] you self righteous piece of chit
You are a complete piece of [bleep] dogchit, You [bleep] i bet you've never had someone close to you die of cancer, I lost my dad in 06 after taking care of him for 18mos while he died of brain cancer, i garauntee you have no damn;d idea the hell that brain cancer causes for people that have it, i hope you rot in hell, or get shot by some illegal, get [bleep] you self righteous piece of chit
I'm not judging her heart; God will do that. It's very sad situation and I can empathize with her plight and even understand her decision if she is not a Christian which I expect she is not.
What unbelievers fail to grasp (and even many Christians), is that in the context of Biblical teaching, this life will be difficult; and that God allows these devastating trials and tribulations for our good, for our sanctification - refinement by fire so to speak.
I believe God allows special grace and peace to those who believe and trust in Him fully while in the deepest of valleys, particularly imminent death. How else can one explain second century saints singing hymns while being burned at the stake, or calmly being mauled to death by wild beasts in the Roman coliseums.
Lastly, taking ones life, God-given, purposely is suicide regardless of the semantics the law tags it with and the circumstances involved. Suicide is self-murder, Which I believe is morally wrong and a sin. Not an unforgivable sin but a sin nevertheless.
Furthermore, assuming she is an unbeliever, this life is all there is before an eternity of judgement. And she at her young age is intent on giving up days, or weeks (?) of her very short life wherein she might find the God who is ever ready to answer and grant her that peace, grace, and very much more.
Praise be to him, the almighty God of free will. He who allows us to choose between "living" in pain and then suffering a gruesome death or skipping that chit to reach the same end but suffer an eternity of judgement. His plan for her was torture, how dare she avoid that! She should definitely stick it out so she can find this benevolent peace giver. Religion is so great, amen.
I'm not judging her heart; God will do that. It's very sad situation and I can empathize with her plight and even understand her decision if she is not a Christian which I expect she is not.
What unbelievers fail to grasp (and even many Christians), is that in the context of Biblical teaching, this life will be difficult; and that God allows these devastating trials and tribulations for our good, for our sanctification - refinement by fire so to speak.
I believe God allows special grace and peace to those who believe and trust in Him fully while in the deepest of valleys, particularly imminent death. How else can one explain second century saints singing hymns while being burned at the stake, or calmly being mauled to death by wild beasts in the Roman coliseums.
Lastly, taking ones life, God-given, purposely is suicide regardless of the semantics the law tags it with and the circumstances involved. Suicide is self-murder, Which I believe is morally wrong and a sin. Not an unforgivable sin but a sin nevertheless.
Furthermore, assuming she is an unbeliever, this life is all there is before an eternity of judgement. And she at her young age is intent on giving up days, or weeks (?) of her very short life wherein she might find the God who is ever ready to answer and grant her that peace, grace, and very much more.
Not trying to pick a fight, just curious. For those who oppose her making her decision, do you also oppose pain meds? Wouldn't the pain be God's plan as well? Is it OK to medicate to unconsciousness but not death? Where exactly is that line? Should they just gut it up and refuse all medications?
seriously? Taking an aspirin is not the same as blowing your brains out.
You are a complete piece of [bleep] dogchit, You [bleep] i bet you've never had someone close to you die of cancer, I lost my dad in 06 after taking care of him for 18mos while he died of brain cancer, i garauntee you have no damn;d idea the hell that brain cancer causes for people that have it, i hope you rot in hell, or get shot by some illegal, get [bleep] you self righteous piece of chit
I'll take a guess and say your a Christian.
Well im sure as hell not a muslim, but i dont attend any church regularly. I do however believe there is a god, and I dont believe that he wants any of his children to suffer in this way.
You are a complete piece of [bleep] dogchit, You [bleep] i bet you've never had someone close to you die of cancer, I lost my dad in 06 after taking care of him for 18mos while he died of brain cancer, i garauntee you have no damn;d idea the hell that brain cancer causes for people that have it, i hope you rot in hell, or get shot by some illegal, get [bleep] you self righteous piece of chit
I'll take a guess and say your a Christian.
Well im sure as hell not a muslim, but i dont attend any church regularly. I do however believe there is a god, and I dont believe that he wants any of his children to suffer in this way.
Survival instinct is kicking in maybe. Plus she did receive free donations to complete her bucket list. As I said earlier, maybe she just wants to spend it before she takes the blue death pill from Oregon. ( I couldn't tell you what color it really is but it sounds good. Need some other states to look in this sure thing death pill for executions).
Objectively speaking, it's certainly murder to intentionally take one's own life. That said, as to the state of her soul, I won't judge. I don't see that choice as something to admire, though. Weakness that one can sympathize with? Sure. But not admire.
You are a complete piece of [bleep] dogchit, You [bleep] i bet you've never had someone close to you die of cancer, I lost my dad in 06 after taking care of him for 18mos while he died of brain cancer, i garauntee you have no damn;d idea the hell that brain cancer causes for people that have it, i hope you rot in hell, or get shot by some illegal, get [bleep] you self righteous piece of chit
I'll take a guess and say your a Christian.
Well im sure as hell not a muslim, but i dont attend any church regularly. I do however believe there is a god, and I dont believe that he wants any of his children to suffer in this way.
You believe but do you have faith?
If faith means im supposed to think that this girl should suffer through a painful death, then i guess no i dont have faith
The only issue I have with her is she didn't try, so as others have said, she is a quitter.
Jim Kelly was given almost no chance last spring when his cancer returned. In September he was declared cancer free by his doctors.
I'd like to think that I would fight until there was no more fight in me, not quit because the fight scared me.
Quote
At the time of her diagnosis, Maynard was living in San Francisco with her husband, Dan Diaz, 43. Doctors prescribed full brain radiation. She looked at the side effects and alternative treatments. She even looked at hospice care.
�After months of research, my family and I reached a heartbreaking conclusion,� she wrote in an op-ed for CNN. �There is no treatment that would save my life, and the recommended treatments would have destroyed the time I had left.�
Not trying to pick a fight, just curious. For those who oppose her making her decision, do you also oppose pain meds? Wouldn't the pain be God's plan as well? Is it OK to medicate to unconsciousness but not death? Where exactly is that line? Should they just gut it up and refuse all medications?
seriously? Taking an aspirin is not the same as blowing your brains out.
Seriously? An aspirin is the equivalent to a morphine induced coma?
I'm not judging her heart; God will do that. It's very sad situation and I can empathize with her plight and even understand her decision if she is not a Christian which I expect she is not.
What unbelievers fail to grasp (and even many Christians), is that in the context of Biblical teaching, this life will be difficult; and that God allows these devastating trials and tribulations for our good, for our sanctification - refinement by fire so to speak.
I believe God allows special grace and peace to those who believe and trust in Him fully while in the deepest of valleys, particularly imminent death. How else can one explain second century saints singing hymns while being burned at the stake, or calmly being mauled to death by wild beasts in the Roman coliseums.
Lastly, taking ones life, God-given, purposely is suicide regardless of the semantics the law tags it with and the circumstances involved. Suicide is self-murder, Which I believe is morally wrong and a sin. Not an unforgivable sin but a sin nevertheless.
Furthermore, assuming she is an unbeliever, this life is all there is before an eternity of judgement. And she at her young age is intent on giving up days, or weeks (?) of her very short life wherein she might find the God who is ever ready to answer and grant her that peace, grace, and very much more.
Not trying to pick a fight, just curious. For those who oppose her making her decision, do you also oppose pain meds? Wouldn't the pain be God's plan as well? Is it OK to medicate to unconsciousness but not death? Where exactly is that line? Should they just gut it up and refuse all medications?
seriously? Taking an aspirin is not the same as blowing your brains out.
Seriously? An aspirin is the equivalent to a morphine induced coma?
I respect her privacy and right to a death of her choice as she looks down the barrel of a very cruel executioner.
Dying is a private matter in which the state should not be involved, when the patient is diagnosed terminal.
I concur.
Ditto. Lost my brother and father on this path. Respected their choices and that of the young lady referenced in the OP. There are no words to describe the suffering of that journey.
Not trying to pick a fight, just curious. For those who oppose her making her decision, do you also oppose pain meds? Wouldn't the pain be God's plan as well? Is it OK to medicate to unconsciousness but not death? Where exactly is that line? Should they just gut it up and refuse all medications?
seriously? Taking an aspirin is not the same as blowing your brains out.
Seriously? An aspirin is the equivalent to a morphine induced coma?
She makes a very good point. It is not the same as suicide, she wants to live, but she is dying already. What she has done is to end her own suffering. I admire her a lot, that could have have been an easy choice, but there is something to be said about going out on your own terms.
Explain how she is quitting when there are no effective treatments and she has terminal cancer. She is going to die very soon. Either she will go on her own terms, peacefully, or she will die a much slower, agonizing death. Either way, she's going to die very soon; there's no "quitting" involved.
At least die trying.
How about the guy who refuses treatment as to not saddle his family in thousands in medical bills when there is no chance for survival...a quitter?
Lt, I know you have dogs. I'm sure you've had one or two that have come down with something that's terminal. What do you do with them? Do you let whatever it is take them in it's full due course, or do you put them down at some point?
That's completely different. If this womans family wants her dead, then they need to kill her.
They essentially are putting her down, or allowing her to be put down.
It's not different at all. It's about the choice as to whether to allow a life that you care about to end through pain and suffering, or to end that life when the pain and suffering is avoidable but the soon-to-happen death is not. We put our pets down out of compassion, because we don't want them to suffer. Yet, we call our own "cowards" when they are facing the same fate as those pets and want the same compassionate end we offer/give the pets.
There is no difference in the compassion, but there is in OUR acceptance of it.
I have no problem with them killing her if that's what they want to do.
So you would rather saddle somebody with that burden, that guilt, rather than handle it yourself?
She makes a very good point. It is not the same as suicide, she wants to live, but she is dying already. What she has done is to end her own suffering. I admire her a lot, that could have have been an easy choice, but there is something to be said about going out on your own terms.
I have been intimately familiar with many suicides. In every case, the "victim" believed they were doing the right thing. In no case, did it ever help a survivor.
Apples; oranges.
Only in your opinion 4 ager. The young lady is going to end her life, is that not suicide? She's going to do it early. Death by taking pills to end your life, what's that?
Well, suicide is somebody wanting to die, she wants to live, but it is hopeless. Her decision is not one to end her life as much as ending her physical pain, I can draw a distinction between the two.
I'm not judging her heart; God will do that. It's very sad situation and I can empathize with her plight and even understand her decision if she is not a Christian which I expect she is not.
What unbelievers fail to grasp (and even many Christians), is that in the context of Biblical teaching, this life will be difficult; and that God allows these devastating trials and tribulations for our good, for our sanctification - refinement by fire so to speak.
I believe God allows special grace and peace to those who believe and trust in Him fully while in the deepest of valleys, particularly imminent death. How else can one explain second century saints singing hymns while being burned at the stake, or calmly being mauled to death by wild beasts in the Roman coliseums.
Lastly, taking ones life, God-given, purposely is suicide regardless of the semantics the law tags it with and the circumstances involved. Suicide is self-murder, Which I believe is morally wrong and a sin. Not an unforgivable sin but a sin nevertheless.
Furthermore, assuming she is an unbeliever, this life is all there is before an eternity of judgement. And she at her young age is intent on giving up days, or weeks (?) of her very short life wherein she might find the God who is ever ready to answer and grant her that peace, grace, and very much more.
+100
A.) We don't know her heart.
B.) Semantics do matter...
John 15
12�This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13�Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
Much of her decision was based in sparing her family the tragedy she was facing.
Another way to look at it. She was terminal, no hope of a cure. If she had chosen to fight it to the end, she would have left her family with HUGE medical bills. I know it seems crass to put a price tag on death, but there's no doubt that our American way of death is horribly expensive. Staying hopelessly alive for months can add up to hundreds of thousands of dollars for the family to have to pay. Some people just don't want to saddle their loved ones with that burden when there's no hope.
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