Cleveland police kill 12-year-old boy wielding BB gun that looked like a semi-automatic pistol


A 12-year-old boy said to have been waving a fake semi-automatic pistol in an Ohio playground dies after he was shot by police. (Reuters)

On Saturday afternoon, 12-year-old Tamir Rice was sitting on swing outside a recreation center in Cleveland, wearing a camouflage hat and hiding a BB gun in his waistband.

The boy was playing with the gun on the playground at Cudell Recreation Center, pulling it from his pants and pointing it at people, a man told a 911 dispatcher. The toy�s orange safety tip had apparently been removed, and the caller said the boy was �scaring the s� out of everyone.� He also noted that the boy was �probably a juvenile� and that the gun was �probably fake,� but that message was reportedly never relayed to police.


When two Cleveland police officers arrived at the scene, a rookie officer saw the boy beneath a gazebo, picking up the gun and tucking it into his waistband. Police said the officer ordered him to raise his hands, but he raised his shirt instead � reaching for the gun. The officer fired twice. One shot hit the boy in the stomach.

Rice was rushed to MetroHealth Medical Center and early Sunday died from his injuries, according to the medical examiner.

No agency seems to be keeping track of how often this sort of thing happens, but a simple Google search shows that it�s a problem. How are police officers supposed to determine in a split second that a realistic-looking weapon isn�t real, or that the person wielding it is a kid?

�The officer had no clue he was a 12-year-old,� Cleveland Police Patrolmen�s Association president Jeff Follmer told WKYC-TV. �He had no clue it was a toy gun, he was kind of shocked. He was concentrating more on the hands than on the age. It�s not, Go shoot a 12-year-old with a good fake gun.� It�s not that scenario at all. This is a compassionate officer.�

He told the Plain Dealer: �We have to assume every gun is real. When we don�t, that�s the day we don�t go home.�

�You have to look at this in the context that this is a 12-year-old boy, not a 35-year-old man with a criminal history,� the family�s attorney Timothy Kucharski told the Plain Dealer. �You can�t expect adult reactions out of children.�


Gregory Henderson, a family friend, said Tamir was tall for his age. He liked basketball. He was artistic and smart. He was a well-mannered kid.

�That�s my superhero,� Henderson told WKYC-TV. �Who would�ve thought he would go so soon? He had his whole life ahead. To be 12 years old, he doesn�t know what he�s doing. Police they know what they�re doing.�

Tamir had been playing at the park with his sister and a friend when he was confronted by police. He never shouted or verbally threatened the officers. He never pointed the gun at them. But he did reach for it, police said.

Authorities said the BB gun resembled a semiautomatic handgun. An orange safety marker, intended to identify a toy gun, had been removed, police said. It wasn�t until after the weapon was recovered that investigators determined it was a BB gun.

�Tragedies happen when you rush ahead of the facts,� Kucharski told the newspaper.

The killing comes at a contentious time, as the country waits for a grand jury decision that will determine whether police officer Darren Wilson will face criminal charges for fatally shooting unarmed 18-year-old Michael Brown. In the weeks following the August shooting, people flooded the streets in Ferguson, Mo., calling the killing an issue of race.

However, Kucharski said race wasn�t the issue in Saturday�s shooting.

�This is not a black-and-white issue. This is a right-and-wrong issue. This is not a racial issue. This is about people doing their jobs the right way,� he told WOIO-TV.

The U.S. Justice Department has been investigating Cleveland police for several years for use of excessive force, according to the Associated Press.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-like-a-semi-automatic-pistol/?tid=hp_mm

well the 12 year old boy isn't going home, that's for sure.

another scenario where a 911 caller sets the tone for how the police are going to react to the scene - and no one was in danger from the person shot by police.

How did any of us survive to adulthood?How do you get a child to adulthood.I have no answer for this one.With the world we live in where kids are killing kids.I saw the picture of the BB gun the 12 year old had.The damn thing looked real.

I saw this on the news this morning. Air soft pistol that looked like a 1911, that is if they showed the actual "gun". It looked real enough to me.
Play stupid games.

Ernie

Perhaps not the best choice or worlds for the soundbyte.


damn shame.

Sitting here thinking about some of the stupid s#$t we did as kids.That was a very long time ago.We would scrape the heads off of kitchen matches and make our own firecrackers.Could have lost fingers doing that.Booby trapping my sisters door with a box full of books.Could have broke her neck with that one.The list is endless.EWY is right "play stupid games". All kids play stupid games of one kind or another.Just sucks.

I saw this on the net when it happened and then read some about it on my newsfeed yesterday when the child died. I immediately noted that the gun didn't have an orange cap on the end which about all, if not all toy guns now have. So then I looked closer and it's a BB gun. Well, that's not a toy per se. The media is acting like it's a four-year-old with some little Happy Trails gun. I doubt the officer would have fired if he'd known for sure it was a BB gun, but you can be killed with one. There's also the lack of identifier on the weapon and the fact that the thing looks pretty realistic. It's also a twelve-year-old and there are some pretty big boys at that age.

Wonder when they'll convene the Grand Jury on this one?

It sucks when your kid is doing it. When you're the kid, it's cool. Face it, without some stupidity, life would be pretty dull.

I feel sorry for the kids parents and for the LEO.They have to live with this.

Is there now going to be a push to ban BB/Airsoft guns? Terrible situation in many ways. Were cops a little fast on the trigger? Should kid have raised hands when ordered? Or was kid scared and just going to show them it was a toy gun? Is this going to be another Ferguson?

report does not say, but I am guessing this was a negro child? Bet the officer was white........

Yes, the child was a Negro.

Read it again. The citizen caller got it right. The gov't worker dispatcher is to blame for not relaying the correct message.

yep, saw that

whoever omitted or disregarded the "juvenile" and "probably a fake"
needs to be in jail.

12 years old is old enough to obey the police when they tell you to put your hands in the air, and not reach for the gun in your waistband.

It was what got him killed.

I'm sorry for his family and the cop that shot him. Dispatcher needs fired and worse.

Why would the Dispatcher need to be fired? What would it have changed? The kid unless a really big kid, could be ID'ed as a kid. The BB gun is a weapon. Again, I'm pretty sure if the Officer had known it was a BB gun, he would not have shot him. The gun is still capable of killing or maiming somebody and the kid was already pointing it at people. There should be a distinction made between Airsoft Guns and toys and the BB gun. I've never heard of anybody being killed by an Airsoft gun, not to say that it's never happened and nobody has ever been killed by a toy gun that doesn't fire projectiles, firing projectiles. BB guns can and have killed people. The info was probably of value, but I'm not sure it would have changed the outcome. The gun was not a probable fake. It was real albeit just a BB gun. Where were the kid's parents and why did they not teach him to not point a gun at people?

you're arguing for the justified shooting of a 12 year old *knowing* it was a bb gun?

Is that what you read? I believe I said twice that I doubted that the Officer would have shot him if he'd known it was a BB gun.

you tell me what you're saying then

Why? Are my previous posts blocked or do you just not understand what I'm saying?

why should there be a distinction between a bb gun and an airsoft in the context of this shooting?

If that is what we're talking about

but I'm focusing on the "A BB gun is a weapon" statement which would read as a justification for being shot for waving it around.

"Firearm." Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of an explosion, expansion of gas or escape of gas. The term does not include any device designed or used exclusively for the firing of stud cartridges, explosive rivets or similar industrial ammunition.


The above is the legal definition of "firearm" as defined in our Crimes Code.

Using this definition, the BB gun, could fall under it. It may be a gray area depending on whether it's CO2 powered or spring powered, but being that "air" is a gas, it certainly covers any "air" gun, not specifically outlined and exempted

IMO it isn't that he had a bb gun, and "probably fake" isn't wnough for me to throw caution to the wind. The boy's action of disregarding the officer's orders to raise his hands, and instead reach for the gun in his waist band is the action that caused the shooting.

Maybe there shouldn't be. I've never heard of an Airsoft Gun killing anybody. Has one ever killed somebody? A BB gun is capable of killing somebody. I've taught my kids that BB guns aren't toys. They don't play with Airsoft Guns. IMO you already know the answer...

This was found on a quick and cursory search. I can't vouch for it but it evidently illustrates that I'm not the only one that feels that BB guns aren't toys, at the very least.

I'm quick to call foul when the cops mess up. They didn't mess up here. It's simply an unfortunate situation. My sympathies to the boy's oblivious parents.

In an absolute sense it is justification for shooting somebody. You can't figure this out? In the first place, if somebody fears for their life and the fear is understandable, that is Justifiable Homicide in most locations across the land. In the second place, as illustrated, a BB gun is a weapon. So in an absolute sense, the Officer would be justified even if he knew the kid had a BB gun as opposed to a "real" gun. For at least the third time here, I don't think that is the case and I highly doubt the Officer would shoot a kid if he'd known the gun was a BB gun. What don't you understand about the law?

Yes.

One point nobody has raised: The police get a call about a person with a gun. When they show up, they have no idea if the person they find is the one reported - or a different person with a gun.

If the cop had shown up expecting to find a kid with a toy and instead stumbles upon some gangbanger with a genuine .45, he could be a dead cop today.

This is not good. I can hear the race baiters ...

"Another innocent black youth executed by Law Enforcement"

If the officer is white then it will be another "undeniable" example of a racist white LEO profiling an "innocent black youth". If the officer is black it's still racial profiling.

That's what they'll say and it will stir up the "peaceful protestors".

The circumstances won't matter.

It's also strange that some would want the Dispatcher fired for not relaying the erroneous info that it was a fake gun. It wasn't fake and again, even if it was it is as you say and also the person saying it was probably fake may have not known the difference between a fake and a real gun. Many AR's today, for instance, are bright orange and other colors and look nearly identical to kid's toys.

Here is a link with a video that shows the "toy" gun in an evidence box. If that's the one involved, and i'm the responding officer and you pull that on me, you're getting shot


News video

Evidently that's already happening.

Yeah...that was my point. Only an idiot would second guess the shooting with the information provided, but there are plenty out there.

I'm sorry, but if a cop feels he is justified in shooting a 12 year old kid for shooting a bb gun at him - knowing it was a bb gun - then turn in your badge, change the law and lets collectively hold our head in shame as a society.

An airsoft gun or a bb gun or a Colt 1911 tucked into the waist band of a kid - OK I get that - you can't tell if its a real gun (real gun being - its shoots a damn bullet with gunpowder, not air) .I'm not happy about it because dammit, you give a 12 year old the benefit of the doubt, but I get it

but to tell me that the law backs a cop shooting a kid *knowing* it was a bb gun because its defined as a weapon?

screw that - that is taking the "I'm gonna get home tonight safe" bullshit too far.

I've seen two pics at least, in the two days I've read of this, of the actual BB gun. It looks a lot like the new USMC railgun that Colt is contracted to make and that Colt is already making for the civilian market. It also looks A LOT like a blued variant of the Taurus PT1911 railgun. It is maybe an inch longer. I certainly would not expect a responding officer to be able to tell the difference in a situation like the one depicted.

I agree.

Without having the gun in hand, how am I supposed to KNOW it's a bb gun?

KFWA, nowhere in the story - NOWHERE - is the assumption that the officer "knew" he was facing a 12-yo with a BB gun. You're making that assumption long after the event.

In real time, the cops get a call about a person waving a gun at people. They show up, and find a person who raises his shirt to expose a gun butt. At that instant in time, that is ALL the officer knows.

If you get shot right with the right BB gun, you're going to the morgue. I guess that in some religions folks feel like the life of the criminal is more valuable than their own and it is the thing to do to just stand there and be shot and killed so the criminal can go home safe.

So are you arguing that if the kid was pointing a .45 at you you shouldn't shoot because it's a kid? Or are you arguing that a BB gun won't kill you?

Many airsoft guns look very real, take the orange marker off and most would believe it was real.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tamir-rice-shooting-cleveland-police-under-investigation-n254716

yep, I'm saying a hand held BB gun won't kill you.

I'm not making that assumption - I'm arguing the point that Ethan said there should be a distinction between a bb gun and an air soft rifle.

I do take exception to it not being reported to the police that it was probably a juvenile and the gun was a "fake" (where the whole distinction argument began).

If the officer is approaching this with the idea they believe its a kid with a toy, then I hope to god there is enough humanity left with those carrying a badge they would have approached the situation with more reserve.

Something tells me there will be some that argue they wouldn't have and would have shot the kid just as quickly either way.

You're supposed to get shot and killed and leave your own kids fatherless because some parent was too stupid to tell his kid not to point guns at people.

Interesting grey area. If he shot your eye out, would you kill him before he got the other?

You're absolutely wrong. I have no idea about this gun, but many generate enough velocity to kill. You don't think that tons of birds are killed each year when one BB hits them? I'm not looking it up right now but there are probably some instances available. I think there were two listed in the article that I posted a link to, but I didn't follow the links and can't vouch for their veracity. Most people know that BB guns are capable of killing.

sounds like the kid is a crack shot.

There are plenty...
____

Brother Won't Face Criminal Charges In BB Gun Death
Prosecutor says shot fired by brother was "tragic accident."

By Rick Rousos
THE LEDGER


BARTOW | Taylor Richardson, 13, who shot and killed his 10-year-old brother, Skyler, with a BB gun, will not face criminal charges.

The prosecutor who reviewed the case calls it "a tragic accident."

The boy's mother and her boyfriend also will not be charged in the March 13 shooting.

"Our office has considered this case, keeping in mind that (Taylor) is 13 years of age and is a student at Roosevelt Academy," a letter forwarded Thursday from Assistant State Attorney Tammy Glotfelty to Polk County Sheriff's Detective Ernest Fulcher said. Fulcher investigated the shooting.

"After a thorough review of the facts, available to our office at this time, it is our opinion that this case can only be seen as a tragic accident," Glotfelty wrote.

Taylor Richardson was playing outside his home on Otto Polk Road with Skyler on March 13. Both had new BB guns and were firing blasts of "air" at each other from close range, thinking there were no BBs in the guns, according to reports.

Taylor shot Skyler from a distance of about 6 inches, but the gun had a BB in it.

The BB went from above Skyler's right ear to the other side of his skull, according to the Sheriff's Office. Skyler was flown to St. Joseph's Hospital in Tampa and died a week later.

Heather Richardson periodically checked on her boys while she made dinner. Her boyfriend, Gary Brown, was also in the house.

Taylor told Fulcher that the brothers were playing around and shooting air at each other "because it felt weird and stuff like that," according to a report filed by Fulcher.

A sheriff's investigator who handled Skyler's BB gun after the shooting also thought it was unloaded but was told by a crime scene technician that 11 BBs remained in the gun, a report said.

Skyler was a fourth-grader at Ben Hill Griffin Jr. Elementary School in Frostproof.

After spring break, Taylor returned to his seventh-grade classes at Roosevelt, Principal Debra Edwards said. She said she is happy that Taylor won't face charges in the accident. She said not charging Taylor is the right decision.

"We're just thrilled about this. We've tried not to think about it, but that hasn't been easy," Edwards said.

"The family has gone through enough tragedy, losing a son and a brother. This is something Taylor will have to live with for the rest of his life."

Taylor missed a few weeks of school and came back after spring break, which ended March 29, Edwards said.

"He's been back with his friends, doing the same ol', same ol'."

Sheriff Grady Judd, whose office investigated, said the Sheriff's Office "concurs with the State Attorney's decision not to prosecute.

"The family is certainly in our hearts and prayers" for the tragedy they've endured, Judd said.

The Ledger was unable to reach the family late Thursday.

[ Ledger reporter Jason Geary contributed to this story. ]

birds

seriously?

I was.

Take note that I didn't argue that the kid should have been killed, just that technically it would be Justifiable Homicide in most areas under the law.

Another interesting question is, if you knew the kid was going to shoot your eye out would you let him if the only option was shooting him to prevent it. What if he was pointing the BB gun at another kid, the way he probably was doing before the cops got there? The report was that he was pointing it at people.

Under most self-defense law the threshold is "life and limb" meaning that it is justifiable to kill somebody to prevent him from maiming you or another person. Another thing is this, if the projectile can put your eye out it is very possible it could travel farther into your brain and kill you.

You don't realize that lots of Turkey Loads are filled with BB's? Typically the whole load doesn't hit the Turkey. I'm sure one BB kills a lot of them. Same with Waterfowl loads. Lots of guys feel like BB's are good enough for self-defense when loaded in shotshells.

Nobody would believe how much stuff I killed with a BB gun when I was a kid.

its really come to the point where a cop is telling me a bb gun is a lethal weapon and a justifiable shooting because he isn't going to get an eye put out?


clearly I am out of step with America today.

I'll wait for the sling shot and dirt clod Brady Bill to come to pass.

Somebody put up a photo of the BB gun and lets argue about someone flashing that thing around in public, pointing it at people, and life expectancies in todays society! That gun looks real.

We used to play all the gun games when I was a kid, cowboys and indians, cops and robbers, etc. but I guess those days are gone forever. Boys nowadays need to take up knitting, with stab-resistant needles.

I'm not a cop nor am I a lawyer. I'm just telling you that's how I understand the law.

You asked questions and I answered them even though I think what I was saying was clear from the jump. You never answered Pat's query as to whether you'd stand there and let the kid blind you just because you knew it was a BB gun and therefore, "not deadly" in your mind.

Here's something worth considering.

Where did the shooting occur?

Was the park in the middle of a gang bangin' crime ridden hood?

If it was would that influence the officer's apprehension about confronting a black yute with a pistol?

Here's a pic I found googling. If it is the kid he sure doesn't look like a typical 12 year old.

airsoft 1911


1911 BB gun 410 fps

Kids used to shoot each other with BB guns for fun too. See my post that's back a bit. That doesn't mean it's a good idea or that an older kid should go pointing BB guns at the popo.

Ahh...the twist.

______


Tamir Rice, 12-year-old shot by Cleveland police for playing with a toy gun has died

Tamir Rice,Tamir Rice, 12-year-old shot by Cleveland police for playing with a toy gun has died.

This is a sad and unfortunate story. Cleveland police fatally shot 12-year-old Tamir Rice on Saturday, after they responded to a 911 call about a boy playing with a toy gun. Rice died early Sunday morning at MetroHealth Medical Center.

According to Cleveland deputy police Chief Ed Tomba, Rice was shot twice after pulling the gun from the waistband of his pants.

�The boy did not make any verbal threats nor point the gun towards the officers,� said Chief Tomba added.

Chief Tomba also added that the weapon was an "airsoft" replica gun that resembled a semi-automatic pistol.

The two officers involved have been placed on administrative leave, pending an investigation.

first off, I'm not going to approach the situation as those being my only 2 options. If I can't diffuse a kid holding a bb gun without shooting him or losing an eye, then maybe its time to re-evaluate how effective I am at my job.

There's the answer.

The media can't help but slant the reporting can they?

"boy with a toy gun"

Honestly, what cop shoots a boy with a toy gun, knowing that it's a boy with a toy gun? Ridiculous, inflammatory reporting.

lol That's about what I thought.

my younger brother spent 4 hrs on the operating table after getting shot with a bb gun, if it had hit him in a vital spot it would of killed him.

Same thing happened to Sgt. Powell.

But he went on to have a successful career and played a significant role in the saving of the Nakatomi Tower.




Travis

One can only hope the cop was black and was using a muzzleloader...

This discussion about whether a BB gun is lethal is totally off track.

I have no doubt that the officer did not recognize it as a BB pistol.

I'm thinking about the videos you see with LEO standing in front of a screen showing all manners of threats and where they have to make a split second decision that will mean the difference between going home that day or not.

I can understand how a tragedy like this happens but I also understand that a LEO has to take extraordinary caution to stay alive in the hood. Seconds matter.

The dispatcher should have relayed that the caller thought it was a toy gun. That might have made a difference. The idiot kid should have complied with the officer's commands.

Was the officer too quick on the draw?

Nope. Not when the suspect doesn't follow the officer's commands and goes for his "weapon".

This thread has deteriorated into an armchair dissection of a tragic event LONG afterwards and with alleged facts not known at the time.

The officer responded to a report of a person waving a gun. (Note: not a noise complaint, not a missing bicycle - a person making threatening moves with a gun.)

He arrives and finds a man who ignores the officer's commands and lifts his shirt, revealing a gun butt.

That is ALL he knows at that instant.

Everything else - the man's age, whether the gun is real or not, whether a BB gun is a gun or not, what the original caller said, what the dispatcher didn't say, or why the man has ignored the officer's commands - cannot be known at that instant. And that instant is all the time the officer may have.

I disagree with one point, fish head. The dispatcher was entirely correct in not saying the gun was "probably a toy." That was what the 911 caller said, but what if the 911 caller was wrong? Expecting a kid with a toy (and thus having your guard down a bit) but finding a gangbanger with a real gun instead could easily get an officer killed.

There are 12-yo gangbangers with real guns. They can and do set out to kill people - and cops. That MUST be in every officer's mind when he responds to a "man with a gun" dispatch.

Crap, and I only have my 1911 in my truck today for my ride home. I should have swapped it for my 21....

You guys sure know how to derail a perfectly good troll trap.

"Troll Derailer." Hey, I like that!

12 year old kids should hit the deck with arms up when LEO hollers at them to do so. It would be interesting to know if the kid had decided to divest himself of the gun.

is that what offering an alternative opinion is now? trolling?

If somebody I didn't know who was old enough to pull a trigger pointed that at me, I would be in fear for my life. Cop did the right thing.

Depends how dumb it is.

If that's a BB gun, what's with the hole in the end of the barrel being so large and what's with the magazine????

the fox 8 news had it labeled as the bb gun recovered from the scene.

I'm curious as well.

anyone with a history on this board realizes there is no shortage of dumb on here - or misplaced righteousness

but then again:

My son has a few.

That is what they look like. There is no way to discern them from the real thing unless you pick them up and fugg with them.

And his AK even "feels" like the real thing. Lots of metal on that thing.

Lots of fun on cats.



Travis

comparing a few gun models, it appears its a Caspian, similar to this:



They are gas fed, and can shoot .2 and .25 pellets and are clip fed.

Wondering here why the details of the other officer's leg / ankle injury have not been brought forward.

A.D. ?

...the timing on alla' this sure sucks, and this WILL become "Ferguson 2".

GTC

Hell, Ohio already had the bro in Walmert get put down because he was roaming the isles with a SCAR pellet gun look-a-like.

That one blew over.

What the dispatcher relayed and where the park was located could have have had an influence. Here's where I'm coming from.

An officer responding to a call of a kid threatening people with a toy gun in a white suburban park has an entirely different threat level vs a suspect with a gun at a park in the hood.

Different circumstances ... different perceptions ... potentially different outcomes. The officer's perception of the threat before he/she arrives on scene could affect the response.

Don't get me wrong either. I agree that a LEO has the right to protect him/herself at all times. Never throw caution to the wind.

Well, I guess the race to make them as realistic looking as possible has been run while I was in the toilet, AKA workforce, for 40 years.

Toy and BB Guns should all be colored so the difference can be discerned in an instant.

In a perfect world, you'd be right, fish head. But imagine a jihadist intent upon killing as many people as possible...in a white neighborhood.

Nope. The dispatcher has neither the ability nor the right to try to figure out ahead of time what the officer will encounter. The result of a wrong guess is simply too great a risk.

In one of the linked videos the police spokesman says the officers told the kid to "throw down his weapon" but then goes on to say he reached for it instead of raising his hands...

I suspect he will have to clarify that one in court...

So, a question for the LEOs ...

Would you want to know that the caller thought it was a kid with a toy gun or is "man with a gun" all you want or need to know?

I don't know the answer. I'm not a cop.

i wasnt allowed to have an air gun of any sort growing up though i was given my own 22 at 12, reason....cousin of mine spent alot of hours on an OR table and nearly didnt make it out due to a pellet to the guts, whole episode was traumatic enough on his body docs figure it wound up stunting his growth....parents reasoning of 22 versus air rifle is ild never confuse a 22 with a toy....

Here's another twist.

Would you respond differently to "man with a gun" or "There's a ME male waving an AK-47 and shouting allah akbar"?

I think the more information the field guys have, the better off everyone is. It's not the dispatcher's job to discern what may or may not be relevant to the call...

The dispatcher can give that info without determining the facts... "Caller advised the gun may be a toy, but unable to further confirm."

That info/statement may have gone a long way in this case, but maybe wouldn't have prevented the shooting, because in the end, the kid ignored officers and went for the gun, toy or not.

Lotsa 'what if's' floating around.

Better safe than sorry. Schit happens. Should have raised his hands like the officer ordered..

Probably meant to infer that the officer that fired the fatal shot was also black.

[/quote]

I think the more information the field guys have, the better off everyone is. It's not the dispatcher's job to discern what may or may not be relevant to the call...

The dispatcher can give that info without determining the facts... "Caller advised the gun may be a toy, but unable to further confirm."

That info/statement may have gone a long way in this case, but maybe wouldn't have prevented the shooting, because in the end, the kid ignored officers and went for the gun, toy or not.

Lotsa 'what if's' floating around. [/quote]

Completely reasonable, and being a 12 y/o stupid kid shouldn't be lethal. More information might have averted a tragedy.

Just read "surveillance video of the shooting is "very clear" about what occurred."

Sure...but we never completely trust information dispatched.

If I was a cop, my focus on this would be figuring out how to prevent such an event from reoccurring, not justifying it six ways to Sunday.

As long as the victim is a 300 lb. dirtbag who's trying to bash in your head, honest law-abiding productive folk are going to be behind you all the way.

Twelve year old kid with a bb gun? Harder to get behind that, even if it's "justified", especially considering the details may not all be available. Lose the backing of honest law-abiding productive folk, gonna be an awful lot harder or impossible to do your job.

I realize there are plenty of issues here, the neighborhood, size of the kid, dispatcher selective info, etc. I'm not talking about any of that.

unfortunately as some pointed out in this day and age 12 year olds are shooting people quite regularly in some places of this country....

Why don't you tell us what's not justified about this deal.

justified may not be the right term

surely you can understand the public concern of shooting a 12 year old with a bb gun with little more than just a shrug of the shoulders and calling him stupid

If you could read you might have noticed I didn't say a thing about whether I thought it was justified or not. That wasn't my point.


Hope that knee jerking doesn't bust your jaw.


ETA: You sure proved my point.

[quote=KFWA]justified may not be the right term

surely you can understand the public concern of shooting a 12 year old with a bb gun with little more than just a shrug of the shoulders and calling him stupid [/


Well, the part you forget about using deadly force is, that it is generally also justified in using such level of force to stop serious physical injury, as well as deadly force intent upon you.

But I digress, please answer my question How was that cop supposed to know it was a BB gun?

If your son was standing there and the deceased was pointing what you knew to be a BB gun right at his eye from "can't miss" distance, would you shoot the kid or just let him shoot your son in the eye. If it saves just one child's life then it's worth a bunch of eyeballs, ain't it?

I never had said he was supposed to know.

BB guns can cause serious bodily injury and may result in death. By legal standards, lethal force can be used.

I have to wonder why the boy had this bb gun and at a playground? I further question how he obtained said bb gun as that most place you need to be 18 or older to purchase one. Who obtained the bb gun, was it stolen ect? Where are the parents ect?

This was a tragic incident for all involved, that could have been averted but again, where the deceased had some responsibility in his own death.

do I get to make up scenarios that support my position or do I just have to go with yours?

Kid was playing gangster and died just like a gangster, pulled a gun on a LEO.

That's exactly what ypu have been insinuating throughout this thread

The gun I saw looked remarkably similar to one of my 1911s. 12 year old kids kill people these days. Unfortunate. BTW, where are Barry, Al, and Jesse on this one?

A scenario illustrating the ridiculousness of your position is stupid? Okay.

no, you're reading what you want to read.

ok, how about using your taser then? or do you keep your distance from lethal...cough..cough... BB guns at 30 feet from crack shot 12 year olds?


at this point nothing is more ridiculous to me than pushing an idea of a cop being concerned that a bb gun is lethal.

but...but...he could put an eye out!!!!!!

Careful Jim...he's packing a lawn jart. He might throw it up in the air and it stick in your head! Shoot him! SHOOOOOOOT HIMMMM!!!!!!!

Why do people keep bringing up what damage a BB gun can do?

It doesn't have anything to do with the case, or any other case where anyone is brandishing something that would case a reasonable and prudent person to believe it is a firearm.

It could have been carved out of wood and painted black, and the premise is still the same.

because the topic was brought up (and supported) that if a kid points a bb gun at you and you know its a bb gun, you can blow his head off to protect your eye.

There is video of this incident and it will be looked at by a grand jury.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/grand-jury-will-hear-case-tamir-rice-12-year-old-n255036

No, you can die from a BB, something that has been pointed out to you, but that you continue to ignore. Also, I asked you if you'd have shot the kid to protect your own son's eye. You dodged the answer.

Emotion, it clouds facts and objective thinking every time.

ok, as absurd as your scenario is, if it were my son I'd probably shot the kid

but here is where you're scenario breaks down - this kid , as far as what I've read here shows, had not shot anyone, was not pointing it at the eye of another kid or even at the eye of a cop. There wasn't an adult there pleading with the kid to put the gun down (again, from what I've read here)

to go even further, this is between a cop, sworn to protect the public, and a kid on a playground acting a fool - no one's child (other than the parents of the 12 year old ) is in danger.

I'm not sure how or why you think you are making a point about protecting the eye of your kid in this scenario.

What I'd like to think is we live in a society where an adult would have told the kid to put that damn bb gun down or he'd whip his ass with a belt.

but instead we have to hear about getting your eye put out by lethal bb guns being wielded by 12 year old crack shots so its ok to unload your clip into them.

This is yet another reason why I'm 100% for all cops wearing vest cameras.

Just like the recent story were a cop stopped a guy at a gas station and demanded he show him his drivers license, when the man turned to retrieve his wallet the cop shot him in the back. Without video that bad cop probably would have gotten off scott free.

The fact that it was a BB gun is irrelevant. If the cop confronted the kid and ordered him to drop his gun but the kid wasn't holding the gun at that moment it stands to reason that he would have had to reach for it to drop it. A video and audio record of the confrontation would prove whether or not the cop gave him time to comply or simply shot him out of fear.

Edited: Apparently there is video of the indecent but it has not been released yet.

~sigh~ I made the point way back that I personally didn't think this was about the cop shooting a kid he knew was armed with a BB gun, but you insisted on going in that direction. The point is that shooting somebody for pointing a BB gun at somebody is justifiable under the law in most areas. In this day and age, where the current Resident of the Whitehouse and his underlings throw the law to the wind and do what they want, who knows? [bleep] flows downhill. From the info we had and were posting on, it looks like a good shoot that just about anybody here, cop or no, would have engaged in. Bottom-lined for you.

Forgive me. I thought justifying and justified had the same root word.

Once agin you are projecting that he knew it was a BB gun.

The statements in the article I read said that he was ordered to put his hands up, he failed to comply with that and instead reached his hand down towards the gun in his wasteband.

Facing that same situation what would you have done?

Pretty much sums it up for me.

Anybody that asks a suspicious subject to pick up a gun he isn't holding, so he can drop it, is a moron.

"The statements in the article I read said that he was ordered to put his hands up, he failed to comply with that and instead reached his hand down towards the gun in his wasteband."

Another report says the cop told him to "drop his weapon"........ which is kinda impossible unless you pull it out of your waistband first.

I'd say there's a fair chance that each cop gave different commands to the kid.

That would seem to be an important point.

"Anybody that asks a suspicious subject to pick up a gun he isn't holding, so he can drop it, is a moron."

With TWO cops on the scene, the odds on a moron being present are doubled.

Which is why every cop should learn to say "Don't move". Easy peasy nice and easy.

That always got MY attention.

Would they be able to turn em off if they had to go poop?

Hands up ... "Don't shoot" also works.

They do, of course, but since I am not a cop, I was talking about other posters only being worried about whether It was a justified shoot or not. Nothing I posted had anything to do with whether I thought it was justified or not. That wasn't my point, as I keep saying, but you are not receiving on that channel, apparently.

Police: Video of officer shooting boy is 'clear'
November 24, 2014

CLEVELAND (AP) � A Cleveland officer was less than 10 feet away when he fatally shot a 12-year-old boy carrying a pellet gun near a playground, and video of the shooting is clear about what happened, police said Monday.

The boy was confronted Saturday by officers responding to a 911 call about a male who appeared to be pulling a gun in and out of his pants.

The 911 caller said the gun was "probably fake," then added, "I don't know if it's real or not." Deputy Chief Edward Tomba said Monday that he didn't know whether a dispatcher shared that information with responding officers.

The president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association has said the officers weren't told the caller thought the gun might be fake.

Police say Tamir Rice, who died Sunday, had an "airsoft" gun that appeared indistinguishable from a real firearm. Airsoft guns fire spherical plastic pellets and have orange tips to show they aren't real firearms, but police said the one the boy had didn't have the bright safety indicator.

Authorities said the boy was told to raise his hands and was shot when he pulled the pellet gun from his waistband, though he hadn't pointed it at police or made verbal threats.

"Our officers at times are required to make critical decisions in a split second," Chief Calvin Williams said. "Unfortunately this is one of those times."

Tomba said surveillance video of the shooting is "very clear" about what occurred, but he wouldn't discuss details of what it shows.

People representing the boy's family viewed the video Monday, but police didn't release it publicly because it is considered evidence and because they want to be sensitive to the family, the community and the officer, who is distraught, officials said.

The shooting has led to an investigation of the officer's use of force. It also contributed to a state lawmaker's plan to propose legislation requiring all BB guns, air rifles and airsoft guns sold in Ohio to be brightly colored or have prominent fluorescent strips.

Once the investigation is complete, the case will be presented to a grand jury to decide whether any criminal charges should be brought, Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Timothy McGinty said.

The two officers involved in the shooting were put on administrative leave under standard procedure. Police haven't publicly identified them.

At least 100 people gathered near a recreation center at the playground Monday night to show support for the boy's family. Some demonstrators carried signs that read "Danger Police in Area" and "Police Terror: This Stops Today." They chanted, "Justice for Tamir!"

"We will not accept any excuse why this young man was shot down unjustly," said Art McKoy, a Cleveland community activist at the demonstration.

Candles and teddy bears were left Monday at a gazebo near the playground. At a home less than a block away, a man identifying himself as Tamir's uncle said the boy's family wasn't commenting and referred reporters to an attorney.

The Associated Press left a message for the attorney, Timothy Kucharski, on Monday. He said previously that Tamir went to the park with friends Saturday afternoon, but he didn't know the details of what led to the shooting and wanted to get more facts and talk to witnesses himself.

The Cleveland case is similar to one last year in northern California.

In that case, prosecutors didn't file criminal charges against a sheriff's deputy who shot and killed a 13-year-old boy carrying a pellet gun the officer mistook for an assault rifle. The Santa Rosa boy's parents were outraged by the decision.

In Cleveland, Mayor Frank Jackson said investigators and other officials are trying to be as transparent as possible to ensure the public can trust the outcome.

Asked at a news conference to comment about the shooting with the context of the then-pending grand jury decision about the police-involved shooting in Ferguson, Missouri, Jackson replied: "Whether there was Ferguson down there or not doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is that it happened in Cleveland, and it happened to a child."

Cleveland's website was hacked amid the investigation. The city couldn't confirm who shut down the site and didn't receive direct information about that, but officials were aware of a YouTube video purporting to be from the hacker collective Anonymous that references website shutdowns and the shooting, city spokesman Daniel Ball said. He said extra security measures are being added before the website is restored.

That's some of the best advise ever given on this forum.

I'm sure Sharpton and Jackson are happy, another payday.

So a police officer should just accept someones OPINION that a gun is "fake" when responding to a call?

That's one of the stupidest things I've ever seen here, and that's saying a LOT

I don't know if I've ever seen a thread go full retard this fast. Which is saying something for this forum.

Bottom line is this: the parents are to blame for not teaching this kid two things. Dont take a realistic toy gun and point it at people. And when cops shout orders, listen. If you're innocent, nothing will happen.

The only "social" question in my mind is why the 911 call in the first place? If the caller believes it's a kid with a toy, why the call for police? In my opinion, that's the main difference between now and when most of us grew up. When I was young, I did lots of stupid stuff. But adults in the community would correct children without fear of reprisal from parents. And kids were taught to listen. To all adults.

You probably missed the 1 of several Zimmerman threads?

That is a good post BUT...parents? Who dat is?

True. And probably the real root of many problems in our country. Lack of two parents with Mom staying home and raising the kids

Right? Dad "who lives nearby" showed up to ask why they didn't "shoot him in the legs". He would have been okay with that.

Mom prolly tole jr. to get the [bleep] gone while she takin' care o' business in her crib.

I think most 12 year olds do stupid stuff.I certainly did.I had plenty of toy guns that looked real.Kid was killed because he did not know any better.Blaming everyone from the Cop to the Parents to the kid aint going to bring him back.It is truly a tragedy.

Its past time to put a mandatory NRA Eddie Eagle class in the curriculum of all elementary schools so that these inner-city kids can get a proper education on the 2nd Amendment and how to safely and responsibly handle fire arms.

the whole discussion ethan and I have had is based on knowing it was a bb gun.

I'm not saying the cop knew it was a bb gun - matter of fact I've said I don't know how he could tell the difference - but we were talking about a hypothectical ( admittedly a tangent of this thread)- not what actually happened there.

you know that's a great point - no one thinks twice about these kids taking D.A.R.E. classes and I know without a doubt they make a huge difference in kids perception of drug use (to the point they'll turn in their parents for smoking weed).

I think having a gun safety class would be a "defeat" in the eyes of anti-gun people though.

Hell, I took a mandatory boating safety class in high school and I lived in damned ole Kentucky. I think a gun safety class is long overdue.

I've been saying this for years. If the left actually cared about the lives of children and young adults, they would push for simple gun safety classes to be taught from 5th or 7th grade on. It doesn't take a lot of time to teach simple muzzle control and keep your finger off the trigger.