http://www.theverge.com/2015/2/11/8023443/tesla-home-consumer-battery-elon-musk

Musk is going to produce a battery that can power your house. Both Toyota and Nissan say their batter packs can power your house.

With that kind of battery, you can charge the battery with solar, or use grid power in the middle of the night when electricity prices are lowest. This could massively reduce everyone's electricity bills. It also means we're not far off of everyone actually being off the grid if they so desire.

Slow down, pal. Wait until you have to replace and dispose of the old battery and see what that costs.

Better wait for the next round of cold fusion.

This certainly bears watching.

For a hunting camp, alone, this concept is a game-changer.

Still has to be charged.

Not to mention the batteries, inverter, charger and getting it all hooked up isn't exactly going to be free.

Without government subsidies, few people are going to be dropping $20k on a battery system and another $10k on a solar panel to charge it to save $100-200 /month on their electric bill.

wonder what the core replacement/deposit charge will be on such a battery?

The worst case of bullshit I read today.

Black & Decker gonna start sellin rechargeable mo-bile homes.

Made in China


Mike

Probably bs to uphold failing stock prices.

This thing is supposed to run an electric furnace and water pump? Not without an acre of solar panels. There's no free lunch.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-telsa-fourth-quarter-earnings-20150210-story.html

meh if the grid goes down, I'll just move out to my 29ft jayco parked under the tractor shed, 600 gallons of propane, in the yard tank, generator and a couple of deep cycle batteries. If it comes to that.

Not saying this is the end...but it's a signal of the beginning of the end.

You didn't read did you.

I like the idea of using the charge stations at work to power your own home.



Travis

obamacare?

Of course they will because they will be able to get a tax credit to cover nearly the whole darn thing.

I am still trying to figure out how you have two years in a row that loose almost 1/3 of a BILLION dollars and keep the doors open.......what senators are they blowing?

If the battery is that good someone will buy it and hide the technology.

This is an energy conservation strategy that flat out makes sense.



Travis

Certainly explains the reason they vote the way they do.

He did, it still has to be charged you retard. I'm going out on a limb here and saying 99.999% of the 'Fire doesn't work in Silicon Valley, don't drive battery powered cars and don't have plugins at work for said battery powered cars that they don't own.

Reads like a green article for metrosexuals living in a 500sq ft apartment that only eat tofu.

Q.) "How did you get your energy costs so low?"


A.) "Two words. Extension cord."



Travis

You just don't get it.

I take five gallons of gasoline from my employer every day. I use that gasoline to run my generator. Lower energy bill for me = saving energy.

It's simple.

Gibson gets it. You don't.



Travis

But I don't want to go back to work.

Part of Tesla's problem is that they can't sell in every state. They sell direct, without dealers. You order the car direct from the factory. Many states kiss the backsides of the dealers and have passed laws prevent direct sales of cars, only allowing them to be sold through dealers. I really don't think that's legal because it interferes with interstate commerce but at this time that's the case.

Here's a map of where they can be sold:

[bleep] aye!
My employees are required to bring 10# of coal or 2 gallons of gas daily or they get docked on their pay!

You're obviously not an Obama voter.

If people start charging batteries at night the night demand will go up and those rates will increase. These things would help make solar work better. If solar gets too big, the power companies overhead will go up as their volume goes down, rates will either go up or you will see a minimum monthly bill. The only real change this could cause would be to close some power plants

Sounds like the Brown gas thing to me.

You are obviously in way over your head.

Your EMPLOYER powers your home. Not you.


Travis

What if I forgo free power from my employee and opt for 5 pounds of peperoni sticks and a case of Bud a week?

Everything's negotiable. Give it a stab and let us know what happens.

The Map you posted is already out of date. I live in Alabama and there is a new Tesla free charging station at the mall 2 miles from my house. Their cars can do 140 mph and drive for about 3 hours 34 minutes at 70 mph. The fast charging stations can completely charge your car in 70 minutes (time to eat a meal between charges). By the end of this year one could travel nationwide with his free charging stations scattered along the interstate system.

If you bought one of his cars and kept it for 10 years, it would be slightly cheaper than buying a 40mpg car and paying for gasoline for 10 years.

Different 'camp' from what I've been in!

You've obviously never driven to Alaska. Actually I'd be surprised if you left your county.

Sweet Jesus

And you didn't read genius.

Or an individual confused about his voting gender....

You haven't the first clue.

Solar ain't much to brag about everywhere. So we are going to have solar farms/electric plugs in EVERYWHERE for these [bleep] things?

Following Dixie's math, a person will be having 7 meals a day whilst the car is charging in pickle park.

Here's another hint, if everyone has the George Jetson plugged in at night, you figure power will then be cheaper at night?

Also, power companies are gonna get their money. Congrats, the guy that doesn't want to buy your F A G car has to pay $232 a KW because of you.

Which is exactly what 1minute said.

It still needs to be charged.

I know, I know. I'm a mental midget.

Laughin'...



Travis

Best description yet, has a descriptive ring to it......

A large factor in the viability of these projects is the cost and how it compares to that power provided by the utilities. Solar panels can't compete against the utilities and thats why the progressive fascists insist on wasting subsidies on them. I doubt that these will be competitive either.

Worst case of bullshit I heard since the last time I bothered to listen to Obama.

All viable batteries are chemical systems. There is limited energey density. And being chemical systems all batteries wear out rather quickly in spite of extraordinary purity of materials (expensive) and extremely complicated battery controllers (expensive) for charge and discharge.

+1

Solar is outrageously expensive. Let's talk about coal fired power plants for cheap power.

My employer deals in nasty chemicals, resins, and coating composites. They do not power or come into my home.

There isn't any differential in electric cost between night & day here. You pay the same per KWh no matter what time of day.

And solar? Well, could you go 2 weeks between charges?

Running a line over to the neighbor's electric box sounds more feasible.

My non-techie neighbor decided he wanted to go solar, starting with powering his garage and basement. Told him the problems but he was a true believer (from Internet chatter, like everyone comes out ahead when they go to Vegas). Through experience he found out you need a lot of solar and storage capacity to keep the system up. Like even in sunny South Dakota you need three days reserve in storage at the maximum energy per day. Some days he used a lot, others not so much. Need to design to peak days. What finally killed the project was battery maintenance and the fact that the deep cycle lead-acid batteries loose capacity EVERY charge-discharge cycle.

And this was during the summer when we have a good sun angle. We had fun playing with it anyway. Of course a sophisticated system would do better but would way eclipse the cost of running off the lines.

Same ones that are handling the finances of this once great nation. GW

All these green fantasies are a [bleep] joke. And so are the people that believe in them.



Travis

god, i hope people latch on to this thing, ill make a fortune installing/removing/reinstalling these things for all the idiots out there

I guess I fail to see much value to it unless it is significantly cheaper than a backup generator. Also, if it's Lithium based, I'm not sure I want the thing in my garage. If that thing catches fire due to a overcharging or a manufacturing defect, you can kiss your house good bye.

Now if I can take an electric car to work and charge it up during the day for free and then use to spin my electric meter at home backwards at night, that sounds like something I would go for.

Sooner or later, someone will invent a true working alternative energy solution. The problem is that the government is backing non-viable commercial production when the research isn't completed. They need to keep the research going but the greenies are determined to shut down the working stuff before the research has found the solution.

The commie/greenie idea is to cover the [bleep] earth in solar panels and windmills.

Oh, and don't forget to use that canvas grocery bag next time you buy a year's worth of disposable diapers.

You literally have to be at least partially handicapped to believe any of this bullschit.



Travis

The problem is you read it and still do not comprehend...this is nothing more than another greenies wet dream as alternating current is still the best and cheapest form of power easy to easy to make and transport to an existing grid. The touted plug and play system would have to have a charger (to hook to the existng grid) a battery pack (that would need to last 30 years to be cost efficient) and an inverter because all the stuff in your house does not run on DC current not to mention a solar grid that will only help you when the sun shines. Go price just the inverter and the solar components with enough ampacity to power your home and get back with us. There ain't nothing free....

There are so many viable alternative energy sources out there already: oil, natural gas, coal, wood, biomass, geothermal, etc.

It's great! I love finding/discovering ways for us all to be less-dependent upon the expensive and polluting use of batteries that are wrecking the environment and disrupting the indigenous ways-of-life around the globe.

And NO, none of that was meant to be sarcastic!

So, I'm in line at Costco. The gal in line in front of me had, among other things, five reusable grocery bags, and a Keurig K-cup coffee maker and a bunch of those coffee cups.

People are nuts. Greenies are nutser.

That said, if we can shave 5% off the peak load energy production requirement by using a bunch of car batteries that are plugged in anyway at those rare peak consumption events, that would very seriously reduce the total cost of electricity.

If you guys would just take the time and go to the Tesla website, you can see for yourselves. Tesla's are not your old run of the mill electric car. They can do 140mph and go 240-260 miles on a charge at 78 mph. They can recharge 90% in 30 minutes and 100% in 70 minutes. Of course they cost $70-100k dollars. But no gasoline at all. Now, you probably can't do that in Alaska due to distance, extreme cold etc. However, the technology is getting there. Tesla batteries are now being sold as a backup system to homes due to their power. Yes, they are expensive. Cars were expensive 115 years ago and only the rich could afford them. Things and times change. In 20 years hybrids will take over, followed in 20 or so more years all-electric vehicles. If the world lasts that long. Battery costs will come down, life of batteries will go up.

Not to disagree with your post, but how did you manage to pull this thread up?

Bingo!

in Georgia, we split wood not atoms.

actually, we do both. nuclear provides an important piece of the puzzle. it has it's supporters and it has its distractors.

but we know how to make wood fuel too.

The only benefit of electric cars is if you're a bliss ninny and figure if you don't have an exhaust pipe on your vehicle, you car not creating an environmental impact.

You'll conveniently ignore that more hydrocarbons have to be burned by the power plant you can't see and those wires being warmed up as a percentage of the power is lost in transmission and that battery production requires mining and nasty chemicals because an electric car makes you feel good.

Storage of energy, ie batteries, are definitely where it's at.

The University of South Carolina is heavily invested-in and being funded-by the battery industry to do research into next generation batteries. Some of the new technology is amazing. Lithium has been around for awhile ... we were using lithium batteries in our PRC77s in the 70s. But how far they have come is just amazing.

And now they have all these hydrogen fuel cells coming along ...

But here's the thing Dixie Dude.

Electric companies will still own it all. They are already into wind and solar leasing ... plus, don't forget, they already own most of the hydro rights.

Don't believe for a minute that the utilities are going to sit idly by and die off anything in the near future. It'll be a long long long time before energy is ever controlled solely by the homeowner.

I'm saying this as someone who has $48k in top shelf panels, mounts and trackers on my roof, and another $21k in the field behind the house, right now and another $12k in batteries, inverters and related wiring in a separate building off the house.

Sometimes it's still not enough to run the HVAC during long hot humid spells here in the summertime.

It'll be another century before they get it all worked-out enough to make it affordable to the average homeowner.

In the meantime I predict there will be a cottage industry boom for homemade solar panels from kits that will make it more affordable, and reliable, to some.

yeah, all of that & nuclear too.

in the summer a careful planting of trees can make a big difference, and the location of windows.

in the winter, just wearing more clothes is or can be an important factor.

and don't forget the insulation levels and "paint jobs" on the buildings.

solar, nuclear, batterys, coal & oil doesn't have to shoulder the load alone.

we could dam more rivers, but i doubt that will happen.

I chuckle when I read about mileage claims for hybrid cars. Back in the 80s, I had a diesel VW Rabbit that routinely got 45-50 miles per gallon. It was older, simpler technology and it worked well. That, plus it had really good range between refills. I didn't like that car, but on many counts, it beat the pants off current hybrid technology.

Running a few approximate conversion efficiency numbers, I don't see where there is any great energy efficiency difference between an all electric car and current gasoline or diesel technology. They both come out about 20% efficient, or a little more or less. I'm not seeing a huge efficiency bonus by switching to all-electric.

There is a new technology that I think has some interesting possibilities. Automobile pistons are run boxer style, and move permanent magnets back and forth through coils of wire, generating electricity. There isn't a conversion to rotary motion. That might turn out to be more efficient, and do away with the transmission and such.

As far as running your house of a lithium battery....color me skeptical. The ones I'm familiar with are good for about 5-600 charge-discharge cycles. My off the cuff guess is that you'd wear out the battery long before your savings on your electric bill would buy you a new one.

We will see some wonderful advances, and some big problems solved, but probably not in the way many people expect.

So for $70k you have a system that can't meet your max load, and will take 30-40 years to pay off ignoring the cost of repairs and replacement batteries???

i read online a few months back where telsa was coming out with a complete solar system that would run a whole average house for around 3500.00. they said the battery would be basically the size of a refrigerator. they said telsa was already selling it overseas and it came with a 10yr warranty.

Now that would be an interesting proposition. Hope it's real.

Our elec supplier, Idaho Power, has a tiered rate system, kind of like the tax brackets. The more you use, the higher the rate. If we start charging cars from the grid, the rates will be higher. The time of day doesn't matter.

A 280 mile range is iffy in the big west. Who wants to stop for a few hours in Bliss, ID or Burns, OR while the battery charges? No way would I take off in one toward Reno from here. If you guess wrong, it's an expensive tow job.

$3500 just gets you one battery.

You have to buy the solar system separate.

I wouldn't exactly plan on unplugging anytime soon. But it does show that we're heading toward independent home generation in our lifetimes. I'm always all for anything that makes me less dependent on someone else. There's a lot of hurdles to cover first, like cost and total storage; so I wouldn't exactly reach for the checkbook yet. And I expect the power companies aren't going to let people unhook from the grid without a fight, that stuff's already going on. The power company has already crippled the solar industry in Nevada, which is one of the states that can make best use of solar. So it will be a while, but you can bet this is the future.

At my current average, it would take 40 years for me to break even.

How much of the battery will come from China?

I see an opportunity. Camo electric cords in lengths to reach your neighbors outdoor outlets.

Of course, you could always tap directly into the power lines (no don't really try to do that)

Same was said of hydro electric power..............Same was said or nuclear power, so far dinosaur juice has won out, I suspect it will continue to no matter what.

Pretty tough to wup on drilling a hole in the ground and having and energy source come out. A bit more complex than that, but that's it in a nut shell.

I worked for a utility for 39 years. Never did I say utility companies were going out of business. In the south peek demand for electricity is in the summer, in the afternoons. If you charge your house battery or car at night during off peek, then use your car during the day to work, shop, etc, even a plug in hybrid, you might never use gasoline except on road trips. As far as your house goes, if you can install a demand meter and use, say your charged battery, as Tesla house battery envisions, you can get lower rates for power by not using it during peek demands. That is one solution getting off fossil fuels, not for green sake, but if you use nuclear power, or hydro, then one wouldn't have to use other fuels.

I think a combination of nuclear, solar in the southwest, wind in the plains states, and large scale battery storage could cut coal and fossil fuel expense. So will small scale firewood use.

Tesla is building a very large battery factory in Nevada that Elon Musk says will lower the large car/house size battery prices by half, he hopes. This alone will revolutionize things. He said about 2/3's of the price of his Tesla cars is battery, cutting a vehicle from $90k to $60k is a major cut. It puts it in the luxury car price range. Also, if the battery costs come down, he could increase the battery size in his cars and get 500 mile range. He has already cut the charging times way down by using 240v chargers. I think he is going 440 at his quick charging stations. He is also considering battery change outs at special service stations, but I think he prefers not to do that.

A company in a nearby town was doing some work (I think it was UG sprinkling) and discovered a large under ground extension cord and had no idea what it was for so they dug it up and found out it went under the fence and into the neighbors yard. After an investigation was done it was found out the the guy had been stealing their electricity for nearly ten years.

Let me know when he has charging stations at the boat ramp, off Forest Service road 112, in RURAL counties and gives me a truck I can pull a 2 ton boat 700 miles to the coast to go fishing.

Another thing. Hydro power only produces about 5-10% of Americas demand for power. Hydro played out even before WWII as the primary producer of power. Natural gas is the primary power supply now at about 35%. Coal has fallen below natural gas. Nuclear is about 20%. Wind and solar are about 5-10% right now, but they are just getting started.

The topic was not investing in electric companies. Well, they aren't going away anytime soon. Tesla is only for small use like cars, house batteries, and they have a sister solar panel company. But home use and personal use is small potatoes compared to industrial and commercial needs. We still need massive amounts of power.

Lockheed skunkworks might be making a breakthrough in nuclear fusion within 5 years. If so, fusion power plants will eventually do away with coal and natural gas, and the old nuclear fision power plants.

Actually, Testla will also be building huge batteries for industrial use. One customers placed an order for a 250 megawatt hours.

And yet your righteousness does not force you into another place to draw your sustenance? Strange that. miles

You forgot to mention that wind and solar are subsidised by the .gov and are not self sufficient. The technology is not self supporting and either way the homeowner pays for it either through taxes or usage fee.

I'd rather stick worth dino iuice, it costs me a lot less in the end.

Interesting it could power a 5 ton AC in 120 degree temps all day and night, along wiht multiple freezers/fridge and the rest of the house.

Maybe in the future, but I don't see it being any cheaper in the end... solar panels and all have finite lives.. 10 years or so and ain't cheap....

But it could well work out years from now if all got tweaked out.

I think my stock in electric stuff is just fine for the time being.

This also... not to mention my 5 ton RV... and power my tractor around the farm etc...

The future in non-automotive energy is natural gas. For autos it will remain gasoline and diesel with small displacement turbo/supercharged engines. I just bought my wife an Audi crossover (Q5) with a supercharged 3 liter V6 that just scoots while delivering decent gas mileage.

I think Apple is going to acquire Tesla (the whole company).

Just a half a quarters cash flow for Apple.

Well ... we don't look at it that way.

We have power when others do not.

We had 32 days over 100 heat factor this summer with 17 of those straight up over 100 before figuring humidity. With that, we had to download grid power to bring the batteries back-up three days during peak and for a couple of hours a few times early in the mornings.

Our battery bank should be good for ten years. We're a little over two years into it now and they are still going strong.

What a lot of people do not realize is that, especially here in the sunny South, your batteries experience very little drain and strain during peak hours because the panels provide direct juice to the inverter(s) when the sun is peaking. Do you have to manage what appliances you use and when ... sure you do, but that's okay.

We sell surplus energy back to the power company. Amortized, given a ten year average prior to installing the system and taking into account credits for wattage hours we sell back to the power company, the system easily pays for itself within ten years while allowing us independence from the grid and no power outages, surges, bills to pay or obligation to allow strangers on the property to read the meter.

In essence, we are completely energy independent because we also have a Lister Peter diesel generator that we've used to bring the battery bank back up to full capacity for less than a gallon of diesel. We bought a large surplus propane generator at an auction (local chicken house farmers) that was barely used. He paid nearly $20k .... we bought it for $3,500.00.

We've got solar hot water and, along with a wood stove in the dining room and gas stove and burners in the kitchen we're covered on those fronts.

The wood stove, along with a fireplace, provides our heat on those rare winter days where it gets cold enough to need them in this part of the country.

My next project is going to be putting-in a boiler.

It's all about changing your lifestyle but IMHO it is well worth it. We do without nothing that those on the grid have, yet we're completely independent of the grid unless we choose to burn some credits for whatever reason. Being on a CoOp, our yearly checks from the power company have been impressive.

Edited to add: The tax write-off alone made it worth our while. It was win-win for us all the way around.

It took us nearly 30 years to get back into building nuke plants, and they're going at a snail's pace (honestly, I think I could build one faster all by myself). Every step there's a court challenge. Can you imagine what the resistance from the tree hugging nutters is going to be when someone says they're going to build a fusion power plant. I don't see fusion power happening in our lifetimes. They may crack the fusion nut, but I don't see a power plant happening while I'm still breathing unless I live to be 100 (and none of you are hoping for that )

Fusion has very little radioactive waste, if any. So it will be welcomed by all and money will be spent to build the power plants. It will take high powered lasers to get it started. Once started if it can be contained, it will be a game changer.

If I am not mistaken, Elon Musk, CEO of Tesla drove one cross country recharging at his fast charge stations this past summer. From the map of the fast charge stations it is across the middle and southern part of the country. I don't think the northern route has been finished yet.

Just how subsidized are they? Way too much. The Bonneville Power Admin is a federal agency that controls the power production in the northwest. A few years ago, we had a high water year. During the spring runoff, the hydro dams along the lower Snake and Columbia rivers were producing more power than the grid could handle. There are 1000's of windmills along the Columbia. The grid couldn't handle their power so they had to shut down for a month. In most industries, if they overproduce, they shut down and take a hit until the market opens up of until their inventory drops. Not in this case. BPA paid them for the power they didn't produce while they were shut down, with our tax money, of course.

So it sounds like you don't get a bill from the power company at all? Why shouldn't you? You are still hooked up to the transmission lines, correct? Why shouldn't you have to help pay for maintenance cost on those lines? If you want to be totally independent, then you should not be hooked up to the transmission lines at all.

You are assuming a lot.

last I checked, question marks mean I am asking questions, no? But you can assume that I am assuming all you want if it makes you feel better.

Nuclear and coal are government subsidized as well; but for some reason no one really talks about that. So it's okay to subsidize coal and nuclear, but not wind and solar; I wonder why that is?

These days nuclear power is by far the most expensive of all sources. That's because our nuke plants are so old. In all states that went deregulated "stranded costs" were the big issue. "Stranded costs" are for the power companies that have nuke plants, they complained that the government made them invest in nuclear, and in a competitive market they cant compete on costs. "Stranded costs" becomes another "hidden" subsidy of nuclear power in the deregulated states. Not to mention the long term storage issues of nuclear, that's on the taxpayers dime. So there are some costs that are just absorbed by the government that never even get calculated into the "price of power".

Yep. If the government doesn't pay for most of it, people won't be able to afford the initial investment. Louisiana this year got rid of the tax subsidy for solar panels, and those companies are going out of business right and left.

Maybe someone will invent warp drive before all the [bleep] hits the fan.

Pizz poor posts, the both of them. Pointless but if you feel better...

If you're hooked to the 'grid' you are in the billing. We had 2 houses on our property with separate meters. One house was completely shut off, no electric use, but the bill was still $27 a month for the meter.

Got it, government assist.

Our Co-Op sees it as competition. Jimmy Buffet's sister built a marina and restaurant near here. They decided to add wind power to lower their "grid" usage. The Co-Op said fine, but when you do use from the grid we are going to charge you a higher rate.

Since smarty pants seems to know the answers to my questions, I'm all ears, answer away. I wouldn't have asked them if I knew the answer. SO fire away, all knowing.

And you're okay with that? There is SO much about that that is completely wrong. They're penalizing someone for trying to be independent...that's freaking un-American.

I guess you just don't understand the way economics works. The Co-op connected this business to the grid with the assumption that they would make a sufficient return on investment to pay for it. Now the business is going to generate their own power and reduce the Co-op's RTI so of course they need to charge more

I understand economics, but I guess I missed the real role of the co-op; now it makes sense.

Utilities are monopolies.

A businessman I know tried to raise hell about the deposit the Co-Op was going to charge him on a new retail development. They politely told him if you don't like it get your power somewhere else.

Funny how market economics actually works when just today a discussion on Bloomberg indicated there was now a rush of sorts to steer investments to Utilities Stocks for the dividends provided versus that of a projected long term no growth world economy.

Thus, lets not forget to not invest in Utilities (electric) Companies as initially advised by the all knowing, boy genius, G.G.

Just remember there is a difference between a Coop and a Corporation. A Corporation answers to it's shareholders, a Coop answers to it's members.

G23

Yes they are, and it makes sense why they were setup that way, but it makes NO sense why it's remained that way.

Clearly you missed the entire focus of my post, boy genius. Traditional utilities for the LONG TERM will be a declining industry as self generation & power storage becomes more and more prevalent. But for the next 30-40 years they'll do just fine. They still have a LOT of lobby power, and there's always growth through acquisition. So there's a lot they can do before the self generation and power storage thing really becomes a viable option for individual homes.

Philosophically I'm opposed to companies who bully the market through their lobbying power; that's not capitalism...and I'm a capitalist.

Why not?Folks drop $50,000 on a SUV that is junk in 6 years and saves you nothing.

It doesn't always work that way either. Our Co-Op decided about 10% of their service needed to be moved underground, so they added a surcharge to everyone's bill. Don't like it? Find another source.

Can't drive a solar panel to your job.