I know of several people from this forum who will be testing and reviewing the new Paradox pack system. So this could be a good thread for people to see it and discuss it.
I will get some pictures up by this evening of mine and some more initial reactions. If you want to see it side by side with the SG Solo, Kifaru Bikin Frame, or MR Metcalf I can do that as well. I have a G2 Longhunter bag, but that model is a bit dated.
Let me know what you want pictures of or answers to.
I was able to look at one yesterday. EdT has one to test and was fun to meet him and see his "shop". Looks like a very stout bag. Didn't get to hike around but had 50lbs in it and felt pretty good. I will have a Stone Glacier Pack to test so that will be good to compare.
Nathan, A bit of friendly advice; have a pro photographer take the pics of your product for your website. You want those pics to "Live"- almost like feeling and touching it.
I came away from your website still not having a good sense of the packs. Heck, without a flash, some of the actual pack is so blacked out its just a blob.
I'm guessing you are a better pack builder than marketer [Dan McHale is in that boat] so just passing along that and my best wishes for your new business.
Thanks for the advice and the well wishes. The site has been a bit vague up till now, and most of that is by design. We should have the patent filed this week, then more pics and better descriptions will be updated soon after.
I now have 6 miles on it, 2 of which were very heavy. I passed it onto a buddy who is helping review/test it for the next week since I will be out of town. He is off all week long, so I may send him here to comment a bit.
Here is a teaser picture from my phone of a MR Metcalf, Kifaru Bikini/Longhunter, Paradox Evolution, and Stone Glacier solo. It's terrible quality, but I will have some good ones up for a look soon.
Back the thread title, the Paradox is a very well conceived pack. Unfortunately, I didn't get much time to try it out. I was going on a 3 day Goat scouting trip and less than 20 miles from the trail-head, the clutch went out on my buddy's truck. We wisely limped back home without a clutch, but the testing time I had the Paradox for kind of disappeared, as I needed to get the pack off to Dan for his Bob trip.
I will look forward to spending a good amount of time with a Paradox pack in the near future.
Ed... My 4 piece 5 weight and me can cast farther than your Tenkara can
I'll check the PO box tomorrow.
It's almost here... It's like christmas, except I'm going to get my ass kicked by a heavy load in a backpack instead of a drunk Irish guy
Dan,
It's not so much about casting distance with Tenkara as it is about line control. The longer rod gives you much better line control.
Your pack made it as far as Zoo town yesterday. Went from Helena to Great Falls to Missoula. I shipped a stove at the same time as your pack to Martinsdale that went Helena to Great Falls to Billings to Martinsdale and was delivered yesterday.
The Evolution frame will come ready to use. It has an integrated load shelf, three horizontal compression straps, and comes standard with a Flat Talon compression panel. It is usable out of the box as a dry bag hauler.
Here I've paired it with a 65L Big River dry sack and a Day Talon.
Evo/Day Talon - 3 lbs 1 oz Evo/Flat Talon - 2 lbs 9 oz
Any plans on making a larger day talon, say around 2000ci? I love the concept of dropping the large bag and just hunting with the frame and talon, but at only 1000ci, it's too small to even use as a day pack for me.
Any plans on making a larger day talon, say around 2000ci? I love the concept of dropping the large bag and just hunting with the frame and talon, but at only 1000ci, it's too small to even use as a day pack for me.
I think the best approach would be to drop your camp gear out of the dry bag, load siwash gear for a spike, and have your "possibles/hunting stuff" in the back pouch. Use the entire pack basically. It is light enough to do that.
With the frame and a Talon, you can put whatever you want in the middle. You could repurpose your tent stuff sack for extra storage if you desired and then have fire starting, knives, headlamps, shell inside the talon. The day talon holds a surprising amount of small gear, however it is not enough for gear / optics / cold weather November days where you might be sitting for awhile. The other option, is to just keep a dry sack or pack bag on and compress it. It compresses to nothing meaning it's a 3 or 4 lb pack capable of carrying 4000 - 8000 CI of gear but not being much larger than the frame / talon combination. Myself, I'd probably often repurpose a tent stuff sack or similar for November type day hunting.
Right on guys...liking the looks of that Evo/Talon setup with the dry bag....could be just about perfect for my packrafting trips for sure and likely much better setup to handle heavy loads than the ULA epic!
Ed_T/Kevin_T - per your recommendations I changed the stays in my ULA Epic to the Kifaru, and added a couple extra straps to the back. I carried 90+ lbs in that setup last fall and it worked fine, but I felt I was at the limit of what the system would do (my main frame of reference for heavy loads is my old DD Astralplane).
How would you compare this pack to the mod'd up Epic?
The upper load limit is most likely user defined (how much can you carry ?). There are several differences in how they work. These differences should become clearer in the next few days, as videos etc get finished. Articulation is a big component of this setup. The Talon is more flexible as well, since it is easily removed and used as a day pack. In fact for smaller loads you can just use the built in load sling and compression if you are trying to save weight.
The modified Epic carries loads of 80-90 lbs as well or better than any other pack I have used, but that is the upper limit. The reason the Epic works so well for me, is the frame sheet allows the pack to fit my odd shaped back, and the composite stays provide load control.
The Paradox really has no practical upper limit, other than like Kevin said the ability of the person carrying it. It is a pack that will do many things very well.
Any plans on making a larger day talon, say around 2000ci? I love the concept of dropping the large bag and just hunting with the frame and talon, but at only 1000ci, it's too small to even use as a day pack for me.
I have used load hauler packs for a lot of years. The Granite Gear Flatbed and the ULA Epic being the main packs. What I always used for hunting was a 65 liter dry bag for camp and a 15 liter that held my day gear. Everything stays dry in the dry bags and its easy to keep things organised.
Any plans on making a larger day talon, say around 2000ci? I love the concept of dropping the large bag and just hunting with the frame and talon, but at only 1000ci, it's too small to even use as a day pack for me.
The packs have a lot of compression, so you can take a big pack bag and compress it till it's only an inch or two thick. So that is a good option. Kevin mentioned taking the pack bag off the frame and throwing a stuff sack with some clothes in it on the frame and compressing it with a Day Talon which would also work.
We're contemplating developing some wing pockets that would work with the Day Talon to hold a spotter and tripod, maybe some bottle pockets. If we go that route it would add 1000+ CI to the Day Talon and should be a nice dayhunt rig.
If, you do develop wing and water bottle pockets, well, I may not be able to resist buying one of these rigs.....and, I DO NOT need another pack!
The other optional items that I would buy in a purchase of this pack system, would be a fairly large waistbelt "organizer" pocket, a "GPS/Phone Pocket" for the shoulder strap(s), a cartridge carrier and some sort of rig like Kifaru's "Gunbearer"...all of which will add some weight and cost, but, are worthwhile, IMHO?
I like to have certain items always packed in exactly the same places in all of my packs, this for First Aid and Emergency Kits, especially. I also like to have ammo in a carrier on my belts, a pocket there for all paperwork, sun glasses, and compass, etc.
I actually bought several Kifaru GPS pockets to fit all of my packs and am buying the MR waistbelt pockets to also add to every pack I own. I have cartridge carriers on each as well and a "Gunbearer", which is one of the most brilliant items of gear I have, won't go without one, now.
Maybe do some sort of "poll" to see if other guys want the same things?
Seems like just adding PALS to the waist belt would address these issues quite nicely. All these other goodies are already available elsewhere. No need to re-invent the wheel.
Seems like just adding PALS to the waist belt would address these issues quite nicely. All these other goodies are already available elsewhere. No need to re-invent the wheel.
+1, and then that way one could put on exactly what pouch is wanted/needed - it often seems that a manufacturer's idea of what you need in a pouch isn't exactly what YOU need, and with the PALS it would be much more versatile.
The point is that the accessories made by the pack maker would be in the same fabric/colours, etc, and that would be a worthwhile addition to this rig, IMO. Some of the aftermarket items as above MIGHT fit and may not, while those made to use with THIS pack by it's makers would work without any additional hassle.
...wheel..., hey, this is backpacking,eh, we don't use ATVs....
The really nice thing about using PALS though, with being standardized dimentionally, is that everybody elses PALS pouches are going to fit, and with the dozens (hundreds?) of PALS manufacturers offering zillions of pouch configurations, everyone should be able to find a combination that works for them. Also, with the standard colours of Coyote, Multicam, OD, Black, etc, one can generally get a good colour match to most packs, and if not, a colour that at least compliments the pack.
Our core is to build gear that is simpler, lighter, stronger, efficient, and more functional.
If we can build pockets that are better than what is available now and offer them at a fair price then I'd be interested in doing that.
If we can't innovate and offer a better product at a fair price then we would have to at least match the current product quality and hopefully beat the price. If that's not possible then I don't have a lot of interest in making something just to make it.
Honestly I'm a bit ambivalent toward a lot of PALS and pocket add ons. If you want a lightweight pack, then get a lightweight pack. Don't make it a light heavyweight with a ton of add ons that don't add to the functionality and actually decrease efficiency of travel.
That said, the only thing I would personally put on a hipbelt would be a PALS compatible holster. So, we may very well offer a couple runs of PALS on the belt as a custom add on.
Most of the stuff I want quick access to will be in a Gateway.
Another vote for Pals on the hipbelt, at least as an option. I still prefer hipbelt pockets, holsters, knife sheaths, gun bearer etc and everything I have (mostly homemade or modified) is modular between several packs using Pals attachments. I don't have as much attachment to Pals on the pack bag since that is a quick way to really add weight.
That said, the only thing I would personally put on a hipbelt would be a PALS compatible holster.
My handgun will reside in an HPG Kit Bag or a KU Koala. Water bottle holsters HAVE to be on the waistbelt, I can't reach them on the pack. I like another KU pouch on the belt, maybe a camera, snacks, etc. Kifaru kicked the KU packs to the curb but they still offer the pouches in sil. Kute, you never heard of "hippie-flague"? You gotta mix and match those colors man!
PALS is fairly low on the totem pole right now with all the other things yet to be rolled out, but for the sake of argument, how many rows/channels are needed?
Since sreekers has been out of town, I currently possess the Paradox Evolution. I have over 10 miles on the Paradox Evolution with dry weight at 35lbs and 55lbs. The Evolution rides very comfortably. This next week I'll be kicking the weight up to see how well it does under heavier loads. So far it has been one of the most comfortable packs I've used. Sreekers is sitting on the other MR Metcalf, Kifaru Bikini/Highcamp, and the Stone Glacier Solo. We are working a review of these packs.
Since sreekers has been out of town, I currently possess the Paradox Evolution. I have over 10 miles on the Paradox Evolution with dry weight at 35lbs and 55lbs. The Evolution rides very comfortably. This next week I'll be kicking the weight up to see how well it does under heavier loads. So far it has been one of the most comfortable packs I've used. Sreekers is sitting on the other MR Metcalf, Kifaru Bikini/Highcamp, and the Stone Glacier Solo. We are working a review of these packs.
Good to see you on here Nevada. Have fun tomorrow!
Our core is to build gear that is simpler, lighter, stronger, efficient, and more functional.
If we can build pockets that are better than what is available now and offer them at a fair price then I'd be interested in doing that.
If we can't innovate and offer a better product at a fair price then we would have to at least match the current product quality and hopefully beat the price. If that's not possible then I don't have a lot of interest in making something just to make it.
Honestly I'm a bit ambivalent toward a lot of PALS and pocket add ons. If you want a lightweight pack, then get a lightweight pack. Don't make it a light heavyweight with a ton of add ons that don't add to the functionality and actually decrease efficiency of travel.
That said, the only thing I would personally put on a hipbelt would be a PALS compatible holster. So, we may very well offer a couple runs of PALS on the belt as a custom add on.
Most of the stuff I want quick access to will be in a Gateway.
Which one/what is the gateway? Is it the chest pack?
Our core is to build gear that is simpler, lighter, stronger, efficient, and more functional.
If we can build pockets that are better than what is available now and offer them at a fair price then I'd be interested in doing that.
If we can't innovate and offer a better product at a fair price then we would have to at least match the current product quality and hopefully beat the price. If that's not possible then I don't have a lot of interest in making something just to make it.
Honestly I'm a bit ambivalent toward a lot of PALS and pocket add ons. If you want a lightweight pack, then get a lightweight pack. Don't make it a light heavyweight with a ton of add ons that don't add to the functionality and actually decrease efficiency of travel.
That said, the only thing I would personally put on a hipbelt would be a PALS compatible holster. So, we may very well offer a couple runs of PALS on the belt as a custom add on.
Most of the stuff I want quick access to will be in a Gateway.
I "get" your points here and am not much of a "fan" of PALS, after some incidents with it on new Kifaru and MR packs. I understand all the versatility, etc, I just don't care for it.
My concern is simple, I already own several excellent packs both built for and modded for the hunting I like to do, so, spending more scarce "retirement" $$$$ on another hunting pack, at 67, is not going to happen for me, UNLESS, there are actual, functional issues in respect of substantially lower weight WITH durability, etc, equal to the MR NICE.
So, IF, there WAS an optional pocket system, as suggested in my previous post and the total pack would still, as I think it could, weigh about 2/5 of my two fully rigged NICE setups, it would be worth squeezing the family budget to get a pack equal to the NICE and much lighter.
That, anyway, is the opinion of one old geezer and may/may not be a worthwhile consideration. I won't carry my Leica/Manfrotto CF spotter combo merely tied to a pack, not given what this cost and I dislike anything hanging on my chest, so, some pocket options are necessary for me.
JMHO, the pack as shown really impresses me and I really hope your venture with it is wildly successful.
Which one/what is the gateway? Is it the chest pack?
The gateway is the low slung front pack. It clips into the lower shoulder straps and rides in front. It's got a water bottle pocket, a good sized zippered pocket, and a security pocket. It's great to carry some food, headlamp, map, gps, gloves, stocking cap, etc.
I'll be honest, when Kevin was developing the Gateway I thought it looked kind of gimmicky. Then he sent me one to test out, and I've been in love with it ever since. It's one of those things that you think looks funny until you use it.
Which one/what is the gateway? Is it the chest pack?
The gateway is the low slung front pack. It clips into the lower shoulder straps and rides in front. It's got a water bottle pocket, a good sized zippered pocket, and a security pocket. It's great to carry some food, headlamp, map, gps, gloves, stocking cap, etc.
I'll be honest, when Kevin was developing the Gateway I thought it looked kind of gimmicky. Then he sent me one to test out, and I've been in love with it ever since. It's one of those things that you think looks funny until you use it.
Thanks! I'll take a look at one. Though I use a Longhunter, I can see more sense in having alot of the stuff I keep in the lid pocket in the Gateway instead. That said, those of us with big bellies might find the location a bit more cumbersome...
Thanks! I'll take a look at one. Though I use a Longhunter, I can see more sense in having alot of the stuff I keep in the lid pocket in the Gateway instead. That said, those of us with big bellies might find the location a bit more cumbersome...
pointer, I can see how that would be an issue! The Gateway should work on any pack, not just ours. And it really is handy, especially if you're under load and making tracks. It's nice to not have to stop all the time to dig for water/food/gel/map.
Edit: A side note here - Kevin and I both use a Sawyer filter bottle in our Gateways. All you have to do with these bottles is scoop up water from a source and drink filtered water through the straw. It's wonderfully easy if you're in water rich country. A perk is that you can dump your bottle and re-fill with cold water if you come across a cooler source.
Before I head out for a few days thought I would comment on the pack:
-Very comfortable belt, and there is no slip at all. Probably the feature that I like best.
-I like the x-pac material. Was doing a 55# hike and we got rained on a bit. The X-pac performed as advertised, didn't soak up any water at all.
-I haven't used the Talon as a daypack yet, but I really like the features that it offers for organization. The way I hunt it will likely never come off of the pack though.
-The frame puts all of the weight on the hips, with none to speak of on the shoulders.
After I get back and namack is done I will be putting some hard scouting miles on it. Should have some good information as well.
Also, like namack said, we and one other guy are working on a fairly comprehensive side by side review of several "top end" packs. The three of us will each be putting 25 miles on each of the packs he mentioned. We've put together a report card of sorts that will help any buyer figure out which pack best suits THEIR individual needs and preferences.
Our goal is to be done with the review before September huntings season rolls around. I will have details on where the review will be posted/printed after we get rough drafts and miles on the packs done.
Thanks! I'll take a look at one. Though I use a Longhunter, I can see more sense in having alot of the stuff I keep in the lid pocket in the Gateway instead. That said, those of us with big bellies might find the location a bit more cumbersome...
pointer, I can see how that would be an issue! The Gateway should work on any pack, not just ours. And it really is handy, especially if you're under load and making tracks. It's nice to not have to stop all the time to dig for water/food/gel/map.
Edit: A side note here - Kevin and I both use a Sawyer filter bottle in our Gateways. All you have to do with these bottles is scoop up water from a source and drink filtered water through the straw. It's wonderfully easy if you're in water rich country. A perk is that you can dump your bottle and re-fill with cold water if you come across a cooler source.
Again, thanks! I may have to give one a whirl this fall. I like the idea of the Sawyer as well. I generally don't drink from a waterbottle, instead prefer a hydration bladder, but that does make good sense to do it that way.
I can see how it'd work on any pack, just mentioned the LH as I normally put that stuff in the lid pocket. Good place to keep it, just not very convenient, but I HATE stuff in my cargo pockets.
Sreekers , since you are affiliated with Seek Outside why should I have any confidence in your review ? I hope that you will put a disclosure on the first line of your review that you are promoting the Paradox pack. In fact , as I think about it , Ed T is in business with Seek Outside also. It will be much more informative when customers start reviewing the Paradox rather than just company men promoting their new product.
Sreekers , since you are affiliated with Seek Outside why should I have any confidence in your review ? I hope that you will put a disclosure on the first line of your review that you are promoting the Paradox pack. In fact , as I think about it , Ed T is in business with Seek Outside also. It will be much more informative when customers start reviewing the Paradox rather than just company men promoting their new product.
Scott is affiliated with Seek Outside in no way other than knowing the owner. In fact, I'm not affiliated with Seek Outside either.
Really Dave, questioning someone's objectivity who you don't know? Scott will be honest if nothing else, but I trust he will also conduct himself with class. I wish the same were true for you.
"It is better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt." -Mark Twain
Sreekers , since you are affiliated with Seek Outside why should I have any confidence in your review ? I hope that you will put a disclosure on the first line of your review that you are promoting the Paradox pack. In fact , as I think about it , Ed T is in business with Seek Outside also. It will be much more informative when customers start reviewing the Paradox rather than just company men promoting their new product.
Your post is highly offensive, uncalled for and you should delete it and refrain from such bullsh!t in future.
I will not belabour the point, but, in my 51+ years of carrying packs and in some of the most remote, rugged and "empty wilderness in North America, often alone there for months without break, I have learned a bit about gear.
I have never met anyone who equals Ed Tyanich, in gear knowledge and helpful advice to others and he is humble and courteous in his posting. His integrity is simply beyond question and, btw, I have never met or spoken with any of these good folks, except Nathan, last week and Kevin a few times by phone.
So, you are wrong here and this site is far too decent, friendly and respectful to all for one person to start making invidious and foolish remarks about others....OK?
I have never met anyone who equals Ed Tyanich, in gear knowledge and helpful advice to others and he is humble and courteous in his posting. His integrity is simply beyond question and, btw, I have never met or spoken with any of these good folks, except Nathan, last week and Kevin a few times by phone.
So, you are wrong here and this site is far too decent, friendly and respectful to all for one person to start making invidious and foolish remarks about others....OK?
A more gracious guy than EdT you are not likely to run into. Last year when I was out in MT I looked him up. On the spot trip advice, on the spot gear advice, all you need to do is ask.
So , Sreekers is not a contributor to the seek outside blog ? Not writing articals about elk hunting for them ? Rockchucker30 , Kevin T is not your partner in developing the Paradox pack ? I not only question Sreekers objectivity , I now question your , Rockchucker30 , honesty. I think the Paradox pack may be a really great pack but stealth promotion is dishonest. Failure to disclose relationships gives the appearance of dishonesty even if none was intended. The attempt to distance yourself from Kevin T and Seek Outside certainly increases that appearance. Kutenay, "I have never met with any of these good folks" . The people mentioned all have interconnected personal and business relationships that are not disclosed. So Kutenay , not ok.
And as for Sreekers not promoting the Paradox pack . He just spent hundreds of dollars if not over a thousand dollars to assemble the lineup of packs to do this review to compare them to the new and unreleased Paradox pack that he has been given access to. I somehow doubt that it is coincidence or uncompensated in some way. After the denials and attacks I smell a bunch of rats.
So , Sreekers is not a contributor to the seek outside blog ? Not writing articals about elk hunting for them ? Rockchucker30 , Kevin T is not your partner in developing the Paradox pack ? I not only question Sreekers objectivity , I now question your , Rockchucker30 , honesty. I think the Paradox pack may be a really great pack but stealth promotion is dishonest. Failure to disclose relationships gives the appearance of dishonesty even if none was intended. The attempt to distance yourself from Kevin T and Seek Outside certainly increases that appearance.
Dave, "affiliated" in the context you originally used it implied a business or monetary connection. That is a false allegation. Let me spell this out for you very clearly. Scott and I both write for SO's blog. That is an UNPAID position. Further, I have NO business connection to Seek Outside. Paradox Packs is a solitary entity, not a subsidiary. This can easily be verified by searching the Colorado Secretary of State's website.
I don't think we have a need to "disclose" anything.
And as for Sreekers not promoting the Paradox pack . He just spent hundreds of dollars if not over a thousand dollars to assemble the lineup of packs to do this review to compare them to the new and unreleased Paradox pack that he has been given access to. I somehow doubt that it is coincidence or uncompensated in some way. After the denials and attacks I smell a bunch of rats.
Dave, I understand where you're coming from, but I think you could conduct yourself with a lot more class than this.
We asked Scott to be a tester for the Paradox long before he decided to write a multi pack review. And honestly, he figured that gentlemen such as yourself would object, so he designed a testing regimen that almost assures objectivity.
All of the packs will be tested by three guys. Kevin and I don't know the other two gentlemen, but one of them - namack - has posted on this thread previously.
Dave, I would think it isn't wise to question the integrity of folks you have never met. No relationships have been hidden. Yes, Scott has contributed to the SO blog. Why ? Well, as a company we believe in helping our customers have successful adventures and success in whatever pursuit they desire. It feels good giving a customer an opportunity to pursue their desires. During the course of the blog writing we became friends. We encouraged him from day one to write elsewhere (which he is now doing). Scott has used a lot of high end packs and we wanted honest feedback from him. We have a small business relationship with Ed, but it really is pretty minimal. We trust we will get honest feedback from Ed and he did give us honest feedback in his limited time. I have great respect for Ed's knowledge and experience. Nathan and I believe the pack is fairly different from what is available. We wanted to get some feedback from a broader group, that has a lot of experience as well to make sure our experiences were similar so we make the best product we can. These folks have used a lot of gear, from other manufacturers and are not afraid to give us criticism. This will help us build the best product possible. Now before you go throwing any more stones, look at the other relationships and so called gear experts and endorsements around other manufacturers. As Nathan stated, the blog writers are not paid. The pack feedback is also un paid.
Sreekers from what I have spoken to him seems like a more than stand up guy. I'm sure he will give a review to the best of his ability. We all have biases that is a fact, being 100% objective is darn near impossible but I have no doubt that he will do his best to get as close to that as possible.
Another thing to remember about any pack or review your read about anything, just cause it works great for one person doesn't mean it works great for you.
Kutenay who has been backpacking more than twice as long as I have been alive is a heck of a resource for anything backpacking and he likes Mystery Ranch packs. I on the other hand found I prefer Kifaru after using and hauling out animals both packs for a couple years does that make either of us wrong?
If Sreekers review ends up totally jaded I think it will be glaring obvious but I believe the will find perks and faults with each and every pack. I firmly believe there is no perfect pack that works for everyone.
If he can't find one single thing wrong with the Paradox I might be a bit skeptical as hitting a home run on a first run of a pack is dang near impossible as it is. There is always room for improvements as evidence in this thread alone with folks offering suggestions for pockets or PALs webbing while the designer, Rockchucker, isn't as interested on doing so as I imagine he designed it more for what his needs are, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Having written a couple reviews in the past I know its hard to remain 100% objective I believe it will be an informative read all the way around and I for one look forward to reading and seeing what Sreekers thoughts are on how these packs stack up to each other!!!
And there is the little bit of disclosure that is needed. The attacks on me for pointing out the facts leads me to believe that there is little honesty unless forced. Sreekers obviously has the ambition to be an outdoor writer and you , Kevin T / Seek outside , are giving him an outlet to be heard. That alone is of great value and a form of compensation. The conduct here in the initial denial tells me all I need to know about your integrity. The low class action was not disclosing the interconnected personal and business relationships and pretending that it's all kosher when it's far from pure. Parsings and denials are the acts of the guilty. Until now the only thing that was bothering me was that Sreekers was pretending that this review was COMPLETELY objective. If for no other reason than friendship he is looking through rose colored glasses. The pack may be revolutionary but I certainly wouldn't put my faith in the review. It may shed light on the performance of the packs but like most reviews I will take it with a grain of salt. Actually , after this reaction I'll take it with a pound of salt.
And there is the little bit of disclosure that is needed. The attacks on me for pointing out the facts leads me to believe that there is little honesty unless forced. Sreekers obviously has the ambition to be an outdoor writer and you , Kevin T / Seek outside , are giving him an outlet to be heard. That alone is of great value and a form of compensation. The conduct here in the initial denial tells me all I need to know about your integrity. The low class action was not disclosing the interconnected personal and business relationships and pretending that it's all kosher when it's far from pure. Parsings and denials are the acts of the guilty. Until now the only thing that was bothering me was that Sreekers was pretending that this review was COMPLETELY objective. If for no other reason than friendship he is looking through rose colored glasses. The pack may be revolutionary but I certainly wouldn't put my faith in the review. It may shed light on the performance of the packs but like most reviews I will take it with a grain of salt. Actually , after this reaction I'll take it with a pound of salt.
How about we just wait to read the review before you start saying its not going to be objective??
And there is the little bit of disclosure that is needed. The attacks on me for pointing out the facts leads me to believe that there is little honesty unless forced. Sreekers obviously has the ambition to be an outdoor writer and you , Kevin T / Seek outside , are giving him an outlet to be heard. That alone is of great value and a form of compensation. The conduct here in the initial denial tells me all I need to know about your integrity. The low class action was not disclosing the interconnected personal and business relationships and pretending that it's all kosher when it's far from pure. Parsings and denials are the acts of the guilty. Until now the only thing that was bothering me was that Sreekers was pretending that this review was COMPLETELY objective. If for no other reason than friendship he is looking through rose colored glasses. The pack may be revolutionary but I certainly wouldn't put my faith in the review. It may shed light on the performance of the packs but like most reviews I will take it with a grain of salt. Actually , after this reaction I'll take it with a pound of salt.
Damn you're dumb. Everybody else thank me for being nice, 'cause I wanted to do a mag dump.
You're entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. I truly do thank you for posing the questions you have and allowing us to clarify things. I imagine there were others with the same concerns who remained quiet out of politeness.
If you ever need anything I'm available. I'll PM you my contact info.
Imo , this thread is an advertisement. Rick Bin runs a business here and promoting gear through this site is how he gets paid . You don't run promotive threads with links to the merchants site without paying. The fact that Sreekers opened this thread means he is part of the promotion team and the review is an advertisement also. There may be valuable information in the review but it is far from impartial. I hope the pack is everything that it's promoted as. I know for a certainty that Seek Outside is supporting Paradox Packs and denial of this fact puzzels me. When you hide ads as honest reviews and and lie about and obfuscate the the facts it leads me to distrust any claim made. I have personally talked with Nathan and found him most helpful and pleasant and I admire that he has designed a pack and is chasing his dreams but the way it is being marketed leaves me less than enamored of his pack for no other reason than his marketing conduct.
SO is a longtime campfire sponsor. There has been no hiding the Paradox / SO affiliation. It has been mentioned on SO's site and FB page for a long time.
Dave, "affiliated" in the context you originally used it implied a business or monetary connection. That is a false allegation. Let me spell this out for you very clearly. Scott and I both write for SO's blog. That is an UNPAID position. Further, I have NO business connection to Seek Outside. Paradox Packs is a solitary entity, not a subsidiary. This can easily be verified by searching the Colorado Secretary of State's website.
I don't think we have a need to "disclose" anything. [/quote]
This whole thing of disclosure is rather pointless at this stage in the road. The Paradox pack isn't available for purchase yet. As soon as it is anyone is welcome to buy one and post what ever they find. Review away as the case may be.
As far as Scott's review, he and the other reviewers are reviewing packs that are already on the market in addition to the Paradox. Nathan and Kevin are somewhat running a risk of including a pack that may not be in it's final form.
That said, I have no stake in Paradox packs and very limited business dealings with SO. I have however written gear reviews for a number of magazines over the past 25 years. Some of those magazines include Climbing, Sea Kayaker, Successful Hunter, UltraRunning and Trail Runner.
In reply to a previous post. I have purchased two packs directly from kifaru with no dicount or incentive and one used Kifaru Sawtooth tent off their forum trading post. I am a consumer of their gear and that is the extent of my financial relationship with Kifaru. I have been completely satisfied with my purchases. I have no doubt of Ed T's experience , willingness to provide helpful guidance , and his genuine decency. I was simply pointing out that he had a business relationship and personal friendship with a closely related business and underwriter of the pack. In fact , his opinion was the one I would have most trusted and still will. I do stand by the opinion that there is no way that the review being conducted by Sreekers could ever be unbiased. I ment no offense to Ed T and my only real problem is that I find stealth advertising to be offensive. The Paradox my be the best pack ever made but stealth advertising and canned reviews will not be what makes me a believer.
I use a MR nice frame in about the same configuration... dry bags with webbing straps/harness I home made. I like the Paradox philosophy and will be interested in the reviews.
Anyway, the paradox looks to have some serious back venting, which is appealing here in Az. I'll start scouting next month even with the high heat, packing into wilderness.
Like others, I'm pretty much set with a variety of packs... but this could be enough different on the plus side to make me think about it.
That is for sure. Just be advised that the NICE frame is the same length as an ALICE frame. Ask a chiropractor about the "military neck" phenomenom. He'll clue you in. There is a fine line between hard and stupid. Sometimes the Army goes way over that line to the stupid side. MR made the NICE frame to Army specs. There are far better ways to pack heavy loads.
Anyway, the paradox looks to have some serious back venting, which is appealing here in Az. I'll start scouting next month even with the high heat, packing into wilderness.
Like others, I'm pretty much set with a variety of packs... but this could be enough different on the plus side to make me think about it.
Kent
Kent,
Thanks for the kind words. I can speak to the back venting....it works to a point. I'm in TN and right now it hot and humid. I did 11 miles with 35 lbs in the Evo a few weeks ago in 90� weather with 60%+ humidity. That is the point that the back venting starts to not work as well. I actually sweated through a silnylon gateway that day and wetted out a paper map of the state park I was in. I need to seam seal the gateway, just haven't gotten around to it.
The modularity concept matches my own evolution of packing in camp and packing out animals. Packing elk quarters or a whole lion are ungainly with an internal. Using an 8 lb frame is heavy and hard to day hunt with.
All can work obviously. The MR at just over 4 lbs and modularity is a good setup.
What I'm seeing here may be better at less weight, more venting... if it carries the weight.
Their waistbelt is the most comfortable I've ever tried. I don't care for ANY of Kifaru's packbags. The Hill People Gear compression panel concept is, IMO, the way to go, and their waistbelt looks top-notch but I haven't tried it yet.
We're deciding on the line of pack bags and Talons that we will initially offer.
The 6300 bag is a dual drawstring with a snow collar. It is roughly 4200 below the collar, 1600 in the collar, and 500 in water bottle pockets. It has ice axe loops, and comes with a flat lid. An upgrade will be a pocketed top lid of 500 ci and you can add a side zip for an upcharge. Note that our 6300 ci is comparable to other 7000-7500 ci bags. It is LARGE, but used without the snow collar it's still good for weekend trips. And it compresses down to nothing.
The smaller bag will be around 4300 ci. Kevin and I both think that a rolltop makes more sense for the smaller bag. The rolltop should be lighter, more waterproof, and should be a bit cheaper to cut and sew. This bag would come with ice axe loops, water bottle pockets, and you would be able to run a top lid if you wanted or even just two over the top straps.
For Talons we intend to offer a Flat Talon compression panel with a small zippered pocket, a larger Base Talon of about 1000 ci that is affordable to manufacture, and the Day Talon which is 1000 ci with two zippered pockets and its' own harness so it can be used as a daypack.
Sounds very good, to me, still would buy a pair of spotter/tripod sized side pockets and I can rig a Gunbearer and perhaps a Kifaru Organizer to meet my other requirements.
I certainly "get" your point about not wanting to build accessories that are just there "because" and the market IS saturated with all kinds of pack accessories. My concern here and why I would prefer such items made by you, is that most of what I have seen in terms of pockets, etc. are "mil-spec" and made of fabric far heavier than one requires for a hunting pack.
My ONLY reason for buying one of these, fully rigged, would be to save substantial weight over my MR NICE rigs as this is important at my age and it seems counterproductive to buy a lighter pack and then put pockets on it that weigh twice what they really should.
JMHO, I am MOST impressed, so far, and am probably going to buy one and use it as hard as my elderly bod will handle.
I think that the policy of keeping it simple, light and as lowly priced as possible will really resonate with a LOT of hunters and it will sell as fast as you can make them.
The smaller bag will be around 4300 ci. Kevin and I both think that a rolltop makes more sense for the smaller bag. The rolltop should be lighter, more waterproof...
Having lived out of a ULA Catalyst quite a bit, that would be my preference.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against making pockets and accessories, but if we do then I want it to offer something that is not out there already. With our X-Pac materials we have the potential to do some pretty cool things. But at the same time, we have more pressing development needs.
With a couple runs of PALS on the belt, two water bottle pockets, a dual zip Day Talon (with its' own water bladder sleeve), plus a pocketed top lid I think the pack would have a lot of organization. Throw in a Gateway and you'd reach pocket bliss.
Looking forward to the release. Any timeline? Have a early Nov elk hunt and trying to decide on keeping my current pack or giving this a shot. Price and the timeline of release will probably dictate my decision.
If I were starting afresh with a system like that, I'd look for a Big F--- Bag with a pocket in the lid for week+ trips. Then a 4-5000 CI bag for weekenders.
If I can get a rifle butt in the "water bottle pocket", you will have done one thing really well that several other companies have missed. Can't tell for sure, as the pics on your site are tiny, except for the 5-pack composite, which is a great shot (that far right configuration, with the green bag being full of dead stuff looks like a happy pack to me).
I'm not opposed to roll-tops, seems you could offer both bags in both configs without too much difficulty beyond inventory issues? I prefer a drawstring/lid on my main bag, but you make good points on the roll-top.
PALS on the belt sounds cool - never ran a pack so configured, so can't say for sure. Digging the Stone Glacier belt config, as it is very easy to attach whatever to the belt. Seems PALS could do the same.
Not sure I am totally getting what a "Talon" is? It is a compression panel, that optionally has pockets? And optionally converts to a mini day pack?
You might also consider offering a gram weenie option with frame, thin compression panel, roll top bag with no loops or pockets or zippers or frills... Gram weenies don't seem to do much, but they do accumulate equipment.
Kevin, Optional as in you can tie stuff directly to the frame without using it? How do the bags attach to the pack without this talon? Any pics in that config?
Looks like you could stuff the butt of the rifle in the water bottle pocket, cinch the straps around the stock and have a nice, secure way to pack a rifle over long distances. A simple, secure way to carry a rifle (doesn't have to be quick access, but it can't be falling out when alder bashing) is a big deal to me.
4500ci is a sweet spot for me. I am borrowing Kurt's Solo Stone Glacier and it is a great pack but is 3300 +2100 expanded. With 4500ci and the abiltiy to expand for meat that would be ideal, my 2 cents anyway.
The compression straps are keyed so you can use the pack without a Talon. They will hook to the corresponding side. i.e. the left side straps have male buckles, the right side has female.
Without a Talon I hook the middle straps to the bottom load shelf then you can hook the top and bottom straps horizontally, or you can cross them to form an "X".
I think most folks will opt to use a talon. The Flat Talon is only 4 oz, has a pocket, and you can affordable get different colors - such as blaze orange for rifle season.
Lots of suggestions, to be expected on a forum such as this, I guess. There are many ways for different people to accomplish the same or very similar ends and so many suggestions may well produce quite different, but, equally effective ways of accomplishing the same ends.
As I mentioned on the phone last week, I think that this is a pack design, that could really BE the "all around-do it all" rig that many might well want and will gladly buy.
One basic frame, can have several different bags for different uses, perhaps, large and small "Multicam" versions for hunting, a spare Talon, in orange, as you point out and then, the same bags in a nice, bright combo of "Dayglo" orange and red, for climbers, ski-mountaineers and others who are wise to be clad in and carry gear of highly visible colours so it is easier to spot them from a SAR aircraft in an emergency.
I don't know of any current pack maker who offers a system that does this and I think that it is a useful approach to providing an "all in one" pack that might well be a very practical and popular choice for many people.
One point here, there was a mention of keeping my spotter/tripod in my top pocket, rather than in the side pockets I have and prefer on all of my packs. I do not do this because ALL of the considerable first aid and emergency gear I always carry, on day hikes as well as hunts, etc. is ALWAYS placed in the SAME places in my top pockets.
This, is one of several personal techniques which I have evolved over many years of spending extensive time alone in some of Canada's most remote wilderness and I have very sound reasons for doing this. So, that pocket is full and my optics must ride elsewhere.
Whatever, I am eager to see reports of this pack in the field and think it is going to be a "winner".
Interesting that long usage has fostered some of the same habitual or ritual traits/actions in me that Kutenay mentions. For decades I have put the same item in the same pocket or section of all packs (or as close as the specific pack allows). I use the same quick release knots to hold any added outside gear and it will always be attached in the same spot.
That way my hand goes instinctively to items I may need in a hurry, no searching, and I can find them in the dark if no light is available. Repeat: No searching through a pack for critical items. Flashlight and first aid gear are never bumped from their location!
Even on my person, certain items are sacrosanct (is that a permissable hunting word?) as to their location: one finisher or other use round of ammunition, knife, compass, predator call (endless uses from moose to mountain sheep and even a predator once in awhile!)
I'm not sure if I'm describing wisdom from experience or curmudgeonness!
Back on topic: this Paradox pack interests me more than any I've seen, especially the frame alone. Tempting...
That "Introductory Special"makes me groan in frustration, as this is THE most exciting new pack that I have encountered since the MR NICE series and I am a HARDCORE Dana Gleason pack fan due to 35 years of VERY satisfactory service.
I do NOT "need" one of these and DO need a new deep freeze as well as a new 4x4, but, I am considering various ways and means of getting the $$$$$ to purchase that rig.
I have a feeling that this pack is going to become VERY popular as it is just what most backpackers require as a "do it all" pack.
Kute, you live in BC...you can store food outside most of the winter, so you don't really "NEED" that deep freezer.
The introductory pricing won't last forever. After we have actual numbers to work with instead of guesses and estimates then I anticipate the prices will change a bit. Plus we're positioning aggressively because we want packs out in the field this fall.
The only way that I was comfortable buying a Stone Glacier is that I was able to get one in my hands, see how it worked, pack/repack it, and even carry some stuff around with it.
Any idea if a demo version of the paradox will be headed to AK any time in the near future?
The only way that I was comfortable buying a Stone Glacier is that I was able to get one in my hands, see how it worked, pack/repack it, and even carry some stuff around with it.
Any idea if a demo version of the paradox will be headed to AK any time in the near future?
cwh,
Maybe. Right now we have several tester packs out, and when they come back they are spoken for by more testers. When the testers are done we may be able to roll those packs into a demo program.
There is actually one tester who has put 25 miles on the pack with 100+ lbs. When he gets done with that pack we are thinking about offering a discount to anyone who is willing to do 10 miles with it loaded with 100+. Kind of an "earn a coupon" deal. When that pack retires we will know exactly what a Paradox will take.
There is actually one tester who has put 25 miles on the pack with 100+ lbs. When he gets done with that pack we are thinking about offering a discount to anyone who is willing to do 10 miles with it loaded with 100+. Kind of an "earn a coupon" deal. When that pack retires we will know exactly what a Paradox will take.
That's a pretty cool idea. Per-lb/mile discount?
I'm not immediately in the market for a pack, but would be very interested in test driving one and maybe buying after hunting season. Would probably be looking at just the frame based on the pricing you listed.
A pack frame for 300 dollars or the whole deal for 600 are you crazy is the dang thing made of gold. Some place in here you said something crazy like a reasonable price.
A pack frame for 300 dollars or the whole deal for 600 are you crazy is the dang thing made of gold. Some place in here you said something crazy like a reasonable price.
I think you should make a good profit but wtf.
You're right, just get you one o'them cabelers pack frames and call it all good. ENJOY. Hell, better yet, get an ALICE pack. Thats the ticket!
It's important to note at $599, you have an extremely versatile set up that includes a day pack that can be used stand alone, or on the frame as a compression panel for hauling any sort of load or coupled with the pack and frame for additional organization.
Personally, we could develop a less expensive pack bag option, and maybe offer a complete setup with pack bag and base talon for $400 ish that would be highly capable. However, I am conflicted on doing that, because while a basic pack bag has certain allure, I personally believe for smaller loads that a dry sack is superior. You can get a sea to summit 65 liter dry sack, for $40.00 and it weighs 5 ounces. This gives you a highly adaptable system of about 85 liters (5000 Cubic Inches) for under 3 lbs and under $400.00 . To me at least, the water resistance of a dry sack, the ease of use, and ease of adapting to the task at hand is better than a less expensive "pack bag" that gives the feel of a complete system yet is not as waterproof, or as easily replaced.
Gristle, I'm not far from Nashville, and I visit friends and family in Knoxville and Chattanooga fairly regularly. Let me know where you're at and maybe we can hook up.
A pack frame for 300 dollars or the whole deal for 600 are you crazy is the dang thing made of gold. Some place in here you said something crazy like a reasonable price.
I think you should make a good profit but wtf.
gwl,
If you look in the market for packs that are comfortable at light backpacking loads and are comfortable at big loads you won't find many. IMO our pack is the only one that excels at both.
If you look for packs that are modular and heavy load capable you will find a few. We are priced very favorably compared to those.
If you want a cheap pack then look at a Kelty cache hauler or some other pack made in Asia. They work ok for what they are and are a good value.
A pack frame for 300 dollars or the whole deal for 600 are you crazy is the dang thing made of gold. Some place in here you said something crazy like a reasonable price.
I think you should make a good profit but wtf.
This, is the "backpack hunting" forum of the "Campfire" and while many of the former and highly experienced posters seem to have left, those here are interested in serious backpack hunting and all that entails.
Some of the gear one requires to do this and I am not merely referring to packing out a Moose, on some crude frame, when you shoot it about 200 yds. from your quad, does cost a considerable amount. This, is due to the cost of the specialized materials, the relatively long "design and development" periods and the cost of the skilled labour needed to build gear to the quality required for this demanding activity.
My first impression of the prices asked for Paradox packs was/is how very reasonable they seem, relative to other comparable gear, but, I have been at this for almost a half century and learned the value of highend, seemingly "expensive" gear in the field.
YOU, may only require an inexpensive set of gear for YOUR hunting, although I understand that ATVs cost far more than ANY pack, but, most here come here to learn and one aspect of that is discussing the latest gear and in a manner respectful to others and the makers.
So, again, based on the comments here of people whom I trust absolutely, I would not hesitate to and, had I not some financial commitments at present, WOULD definitely buy one of the $599.00 combos.
I cannot recall seeing a pack that appealed to me so much at first glance as this one does, other than my NICE rigs. It looks like a real "winner" to me.
If you play with various combination you can find less expensive combinations as well. For instance, you can do a Frame and Base Talon along with a 4800 Roll top in Multi Cam for under $550.00 and closer to $500 without the Multi Cam.
Under $500 competes with big box store packs IMO, and we intend to do that. Why pay $400 for an ok pack made in China when you can pay a bit extra for made in USA and get a huge upgrade in performance?
Gristle, I'm not far from Nashville, and I visit friends and family in Knoxville and Chattanooga fairly regularly. Let me know where you're at and maybe we can hook up.
I live just outside Knoxville and get to middle and west Tn fairly regular. I'm free most weekends and would like to get together in the near future.
So Kutnay are you saying that if a guy is not willing to drop 600 on a pack they are not a serious hunter and do not belong here. And if I question the price for MY hunting gear than I must be on of THOSE people. I can just see you looking over your glasses and down at the poor unwashed. Wait you cant even afford the pack yourself. That is funny stuff.
As for the ATV and 200 yards from my Quad comments sorry not me. Do I have to have a 600 pack to pack in a few miles a couple times a year to be a real hunter.
Should I start looking for the dollar store hunter forum so I can be with my kind people or can someone direct me to the walmart forum site.
Rock chucker I am sorry if I offended you I am sure your pack is well thought out and you put a lot of time and energy into its development. I think you need to be well compensated for that I just feel it is a little spendy. I know the logical response if you do not like it don't buy it. Very true I just thought that people discuss things here and that I did not need to cheerlead to post. I just was saying what I thought.
Sir if you can get by with a $300 pack for your uses/needs then by all means sir do so and save the money. I have found that the extra money in a $600+ pack worth it. Does that make me more hardcore??? Heck no, in fact probably makes me more of a pansy. Heck the guys hiking their gear over the Chilkoot Pass with packboards were tough as nails no doubt and likely you are too. Just sayingg FOR ME I find the $$$ spent on a $600+ pack worth it. Certainly doesn't means it the right choice for everyone. Good luck to you this fall. I hope to be hauling out dall sheep, caribou, mountain goats, moose, caribou, grizzly bear, black bear, and sitka deer in my Kifaru. No doubt its possible to get it done with a pack that costs half as much or less, but I prefer a pack that makes those long pack outs a bit less miserable To each their own. Kutenay has hauled more critter out of the back country than I likely ever will so I certainly respect his opinion.
So Kutnay are you saying that if a guy is not willing to drop 600 on a pack they are not a serious hunter and do not belong here. And if I question the price for MY hunting gear than I must be on of THOSE people. I can just see you looking over your glasses and down at the poor unwashed. Wait you cant even afford the pack yourself. That is funny stuff.
As for the ATV and 200 yards from my Quad comments sorry not me. Do I have to have a 600 pack to pack in a few miles a couple times a year to be a real hunter.
Should I start looking for the dollar store hunter forum so I can be with my kind people or can someone direct me to the walmart forum site.
Rock chucker I am sorry if I offended you I am sure your pack is well thought out and you put a lot of time and energy into its development. I think you need to be well compensated for that I just feel it is a little spendy. I know the logical response if you do not like it don't buy it. Very true I just thought that people discuss things here and that I did not need to cheerlead to post. I just was saying what I thought.
Your comment was rude, disrespectful and uncalled for as well as demonstrating an obvious animus to those who choose to buy gear such as this pack.
I merely replied in kind and quite mildly, but, I ...just was saying what I thought....
Your other remarks simply reinforce the impression of you that I got from your first and I am not interested in a pizzing match with you here.
Two points, though, one is I do not wear glasses to look at others and I do not "look down" on anyone.
The next is that I currently own and use several large packs, three of the Dana Design "Terraframe" models, two complete Mystery Ranch NICE rigs and a MR "Deluxe", a discontinued model of some 3800 cu.in. that is my favourite "day pack". I have a few small "rucks" as well, SO, for ME, while I could easily afford the very reasonable cost of a Paradox Pack as offered here, at age 67, I cannot justify buying another pack with $$$$ I could use for GAS to travel throughout BC to fish and hunt.
Maybe, you might think about how you initiated this discussion and consider other ways of expressing your opinions here? Most of us who post here tend to treat one another with respect and courtesy and we actually come to be friends as a result.
I am not the "ultimate" backpacker, by any means and am now so old I can barely remember how to put my pack on my ancient, trembling carcass, but, I backpacked very heavy loads, daily,for several months every year for many years as a part of my chosen employment. I LEARNED from this that your pack is, with your boots, the two MOST crucial items of your gear and spending major $$$$ on these to get them EXACTLY right is money well spent.
Rock chucker I am sorry if I offended you I am sure your pack is well thought out and you put a lot of time and energy into its development. I think you need to be well compensated for that I just feel it is a little spendy. I know the logical response if you do not like it don't buy it. Very true I just thought that people discuss things here and that I did not need to cheerlead to post. I just was saying what I thought.
GWL,
No offence taken. If your beliefs are never challenged you can never grow.
I do believe that you are missing the point of the pack system a bit. It starts at $299. The Eberles, Badlands, and Horn Hunters of the world start at $325 and range up. Our Evo/Base Talon at $329 when paired with a drybag of your choice WILL give you much better comfort and performance as well as being lighter than those asian made big box store packs.
That setup is upgradeable over time with different packbags, and we intend for this pack to be great at hunting, not just western hunting. I grew up in the east hunting whitetails, turkeys, and predators. I also love hunting the west. So, we intend to roll out packbag options over time that make the Evo platform as good for treestanding whitetails as it is for hauling a critter off a mountain.
By making this pack versatile enough that it is your go-to for every purpose we hope to create tremendous value for people, because it is something they use ALL the time, not just once or twice a year.
I have the full length, forest green packbag from the third of the once "cutting edge" Synergy Works packs I bought in the mid-1970s and I wore the suspension on this out, but, patched the bag and saved it.
I had it on my Bullpac for a couple of years and all I did was just use the heavyduty, black cableties to attach it and then covered these with cut to fit strips of black hockey tape...a rather commonplace item here in Canada.
This, worked very well and I may well install it on one of my two Dana Terraframes, as I find this the easiest way of hauling large, odd-shaped and heavy loads of anything on my back.
I see no reason why some experimentation with your Kifaru bag and the EVO and some ties, extra straps, etc, would not work out for you. I often have modded my gear, even some very costly stuff to meet MY specific needs and I always save every buckle, split ring, straps, pockets and so forth from every old pack I ever use up and toss as you never know when one can be useful in mods to another item.
May be in trouble with the wife on this one, but I went for the intro deal camo and all. It costs more than my rifle, so I have high hopes for the thing. I have now upgraded my spotting scope, boots, binoculars, backpack, and hell even the rifle. When I got my first elk last year some guy said I would never be the same. I guess I didn't know he meant financially. Oh well, I will have it all forever I hope and still haven't spent as much as one guided hunt would cost.
Hiking LeConte in October with my oldest daughter and hope to report on pack then.
I have been looking for about 9 months trying to learn as much about packs as I can, since I am new to pack hunting or backpacking in general. Personally think its a great design after looking a dozens of packs. There is some really good ideas put into this pack. Really like the weight and the torture tests. Only thing I see is that I think it is over priced, not saying its not worth that at this point. Just there isn't enough info out there or people that have the packs for a while to be almost in the roughly almost at same price range as MR, Kifaru, or other high end packs. From a first time buyers stance its hard to spend $600 dollars on a pack in general. With there no one out there that has used it for a complete hunting season or two. I think that its a great pack, but its going to be hard for the first time buyers to go with a pack with no true test of time.
We understand your comments. I think there are a couple misconceptions however. The $600.00 special includes a fully functioning daypack, with it's own harness. If you look at prices of a comparable camelback or Ultimate Direction pack those are $100 - $150 on their own so there is a lot of value built in. With the $600 configuration, you have a daypack, a compression hauler and a fully functioning expedition sized pack. Our base price, with a basic Talon (non daypack) is $329.00. The $329.00 system will function fine with a $40.00 sea to summit dry bag as a backpacking pack. In addition, the $329.00 setup includes a lot of features and functionality that may not be included elsewhere. Compression is built in, a load sling is built in, as well as an inter changeable compression panel. As was stated before, a Badlands OX with a packbag is 499.00 and an Eberlestock is close to $400. If you included a daypack with either, you would be in the same range.
So is there a "shelf" on the bottom of the frame for a dry bag/meat/whatever to sit on, or it it held by compression only? I can't really tell from the pictures on the site. I'm liking the idea of an Evo and day Talon with a dry bag, but I don't know that I'd want to not have a meat shelf to support loads.
Yep, I'd also like to see how the meat shelf works. In the photos so far it looks like a fabric type shelf that folds against the pack frame or let's down in place. I don't like metal or frame material meat shelves, and prefer to diamond hitch them onto the frame and save carrying the weight and extension of the shelf. But I'm in a minority and a real meat shelf will sell better to most folks.
If I were still doing a lot of backpacking as part of my job plus a lot more for personal reasons, the value is there. In reality I have to admit that I do less real backpack hunting as I age and am not sure whether or not to spring for the basic frame, which is what I want. Keep testing and reporting and I will ponder this a bit more! I have two backpack hunts planned for this Fall with more that will be impromptu or day packs of meat (I expect!).
RockChucker, I am very interested in one of your frames for possibly packing meat this fall, will it handle a big moose hindquarter in the 125+ range? I would also like to have a pack to carry on it that would hold enough food/snacks, knives, a spotter/tripod, rain gear, first aid kit and camera for day. Which pack would you recommend?
I have a decent supply of dry bags and can use them for now but would probably want to get a pack down the road.
I tested it with 119 lbs, and Kevin tested with 130. I can do 150+ when I get home if that'll help, but I'm confident the pack will handle it.
Are you backpack hunting for moose? Or wanting a pack that you can day hunt with that can also get a quarter?
On packbags- the 6300 is massive. I will probably run a 4300 for most trips. Really the Day Talon will hold most of what you need, and a 35L dry bag would hold the rest. Kevin and I did a bit of brainstorming yesterday on the exact question you ask and he came up with something that I'm pretty excited about. We will flesh it out a bit over the next few weeks.
For right now, i'll just be needing the frame and something to carry all my hunting gear plus some food/snack type stuff as I day hunt away from camp. For moose I generally hunt off my wheeler but there might come a time when I will need to pack a moose to the wheeler and I want to be prepared for it.
Not back pack hunting for moose, that's a bit more than I care to take on.
And I plan on doing a backpack hunt or 2 next year and this will give me a jump on things.
The Day Talon will hold most of the day items on it's own, but it somewhat depends on weather. For instance in warmer weather I have done a 16 mile day with a ton of elevation with just the Day Talon, but if I'm forced to carry a puffy and rain gear or tarp, it probably is not enough. The Gateway front pack will carry water, snacks, gloves, hat and range finder. The Day Talon can hold a normal size spotter, but the tripod might be an issue, depending on it's size. I've used the Day Talon for most summer hikes and peak bagging trips, but as the weather transitions to cooler temps, I will probably start using the Gateway with the Day Talon. My tripod for most stuff is really small so it's not an issue for me. With a big tripod and spotter I probably need to include the frame.
I flew out to SLC for Outdoor Retailer. Kevin met us there. We had an eventful few days at the show. We sourced some quality hardware, met with Sea to Summit about offering dry bags with our packs, and we even stopped and spoke with Dana Gleason of Mystery Ranch for a bit.
We worked in a couple of day hikes in the Wasatch, then back to Colorado.
Kevin, myself, and my wife climbed Mt. Sneffels (14,150).
The next day Kevin, his son, and I got up at 3am for a scouting trip. We saw some beautiful country and some bighorn rams.
Somewhere during the week we may or may not have seen a crapload of elk....
We got this idea from the removable top bars on external frame packs, and it adapts very well to our system. This makes the pack excellent for heavy loads, and not too big/tall for UL backpacking, busting brush, and most Eastern hunting uses. It is both a great daypack and a great heavy hauler.
Pricing on the extendable frame will be out soon. We will upgrade folks who have already ordered for free (if they wish) as a "Thank You".
Thanks for the good clear videos and good explanation of how the pack frame extension attaches.
I have a question which will reveal my ignorance: Why is the extrension needed to carry heavier loads?
I'm pretty strongly sure that I would prefer the short version without any extension. It looks like it would do anything I want. I've packed over 100 lbs of meat for miles and don't plan to do that anymore.
The taller frame gives a steeper load lifter angle, plus the higher compression strap allows you to position the bulk of the load higher between your shoulders which affects center of gravity less.
Okanagan, if I remember right you normally pack loads with hip belt unfastened? Or am I off base? If that is right then frame height is irrelevant for you, unless our belt works for you where others don't.
The taller frame gives a steeper load lifter angle, plus the higher compression strap allows you to position the bulk of the load higher between your shoulders which affects center of gravity less.
Okanagan, if I remember right you normally pack loads with hip belt unfastened? Or am I off base? If that is right then frame height is irrelevant for you, unless our belt works for you where others don't.
Good memory! Yes, I don't use hip belts much. Your answer makes sense. FWIW I'm 5'10" (or was when I started backpacking years ago. )
I have always preferred heavy loads to be centered high and close to the body, even slightly over the base of the neck on reasonable ground. Somewhat lower and still tight is better on steep rough stuff but a man isn't wise to pack a really heavy load on such ground. If I get the load too high on uncertain footing it is prone to throw my balance one way or the other.
Your comment nailed it: Center of gravity is the critical factor for the load and even more so for the center of gravity combo of man and load.
You have really thought through this pack. Wishing you the best with your business side.
I think the frame extension is genius for a hunting pack. In western Washington we deal with a lot of brush,and I personally hate any part of the pack above my shoulders when hunting. Will the size of the frame extension (how short you can make the bag) be something we can customize?
The bag has two connection points a lower (for use without extensions) and a higher (for use with the extensions). When the extensions are not in use, the top few inches of the bag become effectively an extension collar. Compression and everything else moves down accordingly. The Drawstring bag is optimized for the higher frame height (so the drawstring is higher than the end of the frame) but it will work fine at the lower height. The Roll Top bag, the closure height really doesn't matter. Both pack bags have a bit of play and adjustment within a couple inches, so if you actually wanted to trim your frame to a certain height within an inch or two you certainly could.
To note, I find a 26" frame is fine for me up to 130 lbs and I am 6'1". I can use a packbag at it's standard attachment on the 26" frame due to the play in the attachment. For me, 24" is about the minimum to get any lift at lower load limits perhaps to 40 or 50 lbs. I could go with a 24" with extension and it will work perfectly fine, however the 26 is a nice mix for me. The hipbelt works very well, even when it is not centered perfectly on the illiacs, so I can just increase torso of the the harness and drop the belt a couple inches if I need to and function fine at lower weights. For me either are acceptable. I'd prefer frame extensions and being perfectly centering on the iliacs for busting brush, but I hunt a lot more open country and can be fine with 26. The extensions work great, and this is just a demonstration of the flexibility. If I feel 26" is to long, I'll cut it to 24 and use the extension for the heavier loads.
The extensions will be standardized at 4", and the frames are standard at 28" with extension option frames able to adjust from 24-28".
I will add a note though....the way the pack rides on your body is extremely adjustable. The hip belt has two grommets which allow you to raise or lower the belt. So, I can make that 24" frame ride like a 22" frame or even a 26" frame with just a couple changes in suspension.
If I was day hunting in brush I would want the frame low at shoulder level and I can do that. I can also raise it up for packing more weight.
A side note- last week I hauled a 20 something pound climbing treestand plus a 50 lb sandbag on the frame for a mile with the frame in its short configuration. That ~75 lb awkward load is the upper limit of what I want to haul without the extensions. It did fine but would have been more comfortable with extensions in.
I think my turning point will be in the 50-60 lb range. Below that I'd prefer the shorter frame, above that and I will prefer the extensions.
Sorry for more questions, but I'm looking for the "perfect" pack for me. I look at packs to be able to do 3 things, haul my gear in, haul my gear out with the addition of an animal, and be able to use as a day pack for hunting. I feel like many packs can do two of these things well, but not all 3. For me, the ability to use as a hunting pack is the most important as that is how it will be used most the time. When used as a hunting pack, I want it to be narrow and short. I don't want anything catching on branches, etc. It also needs to be quiet with no annoying squeaks. When I am lucky enough to take an animal, I want to be able to convert my pack to a hauler with out needing to go back to camp for more parts. So, even with the 4 inch extensions, this will probably still be too tall for my liking as a hunting pack. Do you think it would be possible for me to modify the standard frame to have 10 inch extensions (18 - 28). I imagine I could come up with a way to connect the extensions to the frame easily enough. Also, how wide is the bottom part of the frame and is this adjustable at all? Thanks
That much variance is not possible. I don't mean to question you , but how tall are you ? A 24 inch frame does not come more than a couple inches above me and I am 6'1" . The frame is narrow at the top, so really the frame will only hit something if your ears are hitting it. The Day Talon is 18" so that is a good low profile solution.
You're a good 5 inches taller than me, so yes 24" will stick up a long way. I have no interest in using the day talon without the frame (or at least part of it) since that defeats the purpose of being able to transform a good hunting pack into a load hauler once an animal is down. I guess my question is "why isn't that much variance possible". Is it just because of how the harness attaches to the frame? In daypack mode, the frame wouldn't really need to do anything as I'd only be carrying about 20lbs.
I'm not sure if it will stick up that much despite the height difference. Chances are your torso is not 5 inches less, more than likely an inch or two.
Anyway to answer your question, the top of the frame and bottom of the frame are essentially in encasements. There is a gap between them that allows this flexibility, however there needs to be some play in between them for torso adjustments etc. The minimum, they could probably be would be 20 or 21 inches just due to how pieces fit together and needing a little space between the encasements and to allow extensions to fit on etc. Now you can probably get the frame to not extend beyond your shoulders, but it would require the hipbelt being dropped a bit so it doesn't fit directly over the illiacs. If you are not trying to obtain shoulder lift then the hipbelt is really only for stability anyway so dropping it a bit isn't much of an issue. It does still support a load even when it is a little low, just not as well.
So you're 5'8"? I bet your torso is still 16-17" because my wife's is 15.5 and she's 5'5" with a very short torso. I think that by raising the belt up in relation to the frame and using the standard 24" frame you will be just fine.
I'm not trying to argue with anyone about what will or wont fit me (16.5 inch torso by the way). I just know what I like. For hunting, I prefer a pack with nothing sticking up over my shoulders. Having the pack stick up a bit may not be a big deal for some, but I hunt in a lot of brush in western Washington. I also ride my mountain bike into areas to elk hunt. It's a pain in the neck having something behind my head. My daypack/hunting pack sits about 3 inches below my shoulders and works great for hunting. However, it won't pack squat and requires a trip back to the truck before hauling out any game. For my backpack hunting, I have a modified golite bag that has about a 25" frame. The pack works great for hauling in my gear, ok for hauling it out, and ok for hunting but can get annoyint at times with the frame sticking up. I really noticed it this year while trying to belly up to an edge to peak over at some deer. I was just hoping that this pack had the potential to become a perfect pack for me. Without actually looking at the pack, I'm still not sure why I couldn't find a way to make it work. Can the belt and harness be worn wthout the frame? Not that I want to wear it that way, but if it can, then I'd think there would be a lot of possibilities as far as frame extensions, and breaking down the frame for use when needed. I'm sure the pack is top notch, but I'm just trying to find something (for me) that will separate it from some of the other high end hunting packs on the market. Many packs compress to narrow and decrease volume, but not many have the ability to be shortened.
We are having a special on a less expensive combination. It is an Evo, a 4800 Roll Top and a Base Talon. Total capacity ~ 5800 CI and weight is under 3.5 lbs
We've got four combos on special, and if you order on or before Labor day then we will guarantee delivery by October 3rd, just in time for rifle season in most places.
You can see the combos by clicking the specials tab on:
Here are a few of the customizations available. Photo quality is not that great as some of these were just ready to ship out.
Side zip access on the 6300
Even in the Multi Cam with the side zip on the 6300 and lid it comes in under 4lbs at 3lbs 14 ounces. Add a base talon and you are barely over 4 lbs for lots of volume and access. Comes complete with zipper garage. One again photo is for example only
PALS on the hipbelt Several requests for this and here is an example
Hey, bud, what was the weight, overall and how did the pack ride for how long a trip?
Kute,
Honestly only about 75-80 pounds in that pack...so not killer but definitely a weight that starts to separate them hiking packs from the hunting packs. The paradox IMO is much better than a lot of the "hunting" packs. Its a great pack for sure as an option for the backpack hunter....won't be swapping up my choice of current pack at this point, but its a great option no doubt.
Hope the rest of the guys trying this pack out start posting pics of the hunting pack in action for sure!
For Thanksgiving, we are having some really good specials on pack bags than can save you some coin. Thanksgiving Week Special
Here is Nathan with a 156 Lb load in a Paradox
We have also been working with another pack bag material that will save some weight. It's made from a 210 D and is a rolltop design. This combination brings suspension and pack bag to about 3 lbs give or take an ounce.
I thought I should post this here as well. It was my write up on the Paradox from my 11-12-13 bull post:
I wasn't sure how much weight was in the pack. I knew it was heavier than the day before but it wasn't until I got down that I realized it was 96 lbs. My comments to Kevin on how the pack carried are below:
> My first thought to write you on how the Paradox was with 96 lbs: it sucked....... but it sucked a lot less than most packs with 96 lbs smile > Overall I liked it a lot.
> <The hip belt is excellent. Stays put and doesn't slide down.
> < Very stable with a big load even on steep loose sidehills
> < Compression system is well though out and overall excellent. Placement of straps is just where you need them
> < The orange Base Talon is perfect for a small amount of gear and works great as a compression panel
> < The frame, after several tweaking sessions fits me very well
> < Shoulder suspension is one area in need of improvement. No matter how I adjusted I had too much pressure on the fronts of my shoulders. I think this is mainly the effect of the suspension being too narrow to distribute the load. The suspension that comes with the new production packs might have this issue solved.
> < The addition of a Pals waist belt would make this pretty close to an ideal pack. It carries great with small loads yet the frame and suspension will handle a lot more than me
> One change I would suggest is to replace the wing nut attachments with a nylock nut. I put some Loctite on the wing nuts as It would suck to loose one
As I said, overall. I am very impressed with the pack which is an early prototype. I look forward to trying the new lighter frame as well as the wider shoulder suspension with better EVA foam. I also think the new production hip belt with Pals webbing looks great and I look forward to trying this as well.
When Kevin asked my about testing the Paradox, I said sure, I'd like to try it out, but that I wasn't in the market for a new pack. After a lot of days in the field with a prototype Paradox, I have to say that I think I will be carrying one of these for a lot more miles in the future.
I really like my modified Epic, but know it wouldn't have carried the close to 100 lbs as well, it at all. I also worry about how many, 60+ pound loads the Epic has in it. I have no such worries with the Paradox.
Having had the opportunity to spend most of November with a pre-production test Paradox 6300 w/ Day Talon, I thought I'd share my thoughts and impressions of the pack. We hunt a lot of big game from August to the end of November, or, depending on the year, until the end of December. Mainly out of a backpack, but often horses are a part of the mix. This November, many weekends got stretched long, multiple day hunts, 4 days out on elk opener and a 5 day + horse pack trip near the end of this year. So, while I didn't keep a log of exact time under the pack, it was more than a day or two�
First Impressions- --------------------
Honestly, unpacking and examining the pack, I was skeptical. I'm a longtime Arcteryx and Mystery Ranch user, so this light, little pack didn't seem very confidence inspiring. Very minimalist and very, very light� ( I know, you're all thinking, "Well, anything'll seem light to a MR user!" )
Though Kevin, from Paradox, did stress that this was a pre-production example, quality seemed good. Tight, straight stitching. Flat, wrinkle free seams. No fraying, loose fabric.
I have had trouble in the past with getting a good pack fit, but even for me, the pack adjusted easily for fitting. The suspension is very different from any packs I've used or been around, but it seemed to work. I'm 5' 9", 185-190 with a 30" waist and long torso for my height. That scrawny waist, combined with most of my weight being in the legs and shoulders makes for a tough fit sometimes� Ideally, the belt on this example could've been a little smaller, but the design works so well that it was less of a problem than some other packs I've owned with a slightly large belt. VERY functional load lifters definitely help!
I tried it with 50ish pounds right away on stairs. Hhhmmm� In spite of the super stiff frame, very comfortable�
In Use- ---------
The pack mainly saw use hauling gear/camp in 6-10 kilometres for a spike camp, and then converted for use as a day pack. It saw day use as the complete pack only, though it's a nice option to have, the Day Talon was never used as a stand alone. Loads in the 45-55 pound were the norm. I did pack one, bone-in ( don't ask ) elk quarter with it, for around 6 klicks. The design is very user/role flexible. For example, one of our trips was with horses. For a couple of rides I just pulled the Talon, with my personal gear/emergency gear/tags, off and threw it into my saddle bags. Very handy. Most days we rode, at or before first light, from a large tipi spike camp to high country and ridges above. At the limits of horse country, we'd tie our mounts and hunt the high ridges all day. Those days, I rode with the full frame pack, it handles saddles pretty well, depending on the saddle, some better than others. This saddle capability is a plus and often a consideration, for us anyways...
Overall Impressions- ------------------------
It's been years since I've used a external, and even though the Paradox is kind've a hybrid-improved external, I'd forgotten how well they work. This pack plain old hauls... Very, very well. The frame and suspension is very stiff and comfortable under heavier loads. A few buddies tried the pack briefly. Very experienced backpackers and hunters, with tons of time under various packs, including Kifaru, Arcteryx, Mystery Ranch, Gregory, Lowe Alpine, etc., and they too were pleasantly surprised with the pack's comfort under load.
The XPAC is louder than Cordura. Not so much in wearing and carrying it, as Cordura is loud on branches and twigs anyways, but when loading or unloading. Especially in the cold, it's more 'crinkly'... Not a deal breaker for me, ( I shot my elk this year part way through loading up the pack after a lunch stop... ) but maybe for some guys and how they hunt? Personally, the waterproof claims of the fabric aren't a big plus for me, but again, maybe for some guys and where they hunt? It seems like it should be a pretty durable fabric.
The pack is a very minimalist design and has to be packed accordingly. There is no stay sheet to separate the pack bag from your back, so it must be packed with more care than the internals most of us are used to. After one reminder Via a MSR IsoPro can in my back, this was an easy adjustment for me...
Final Thoughts & Disclaimer- ---------------------------------
Overall, I'm very impressed by this pack. A very light, versatile and capable offering. It is worthy of consideration by anyone shopping for a new, light weight hunting pack.
I've yet to decide if I'll leave behind my trusty MR Grizzly or Bora80 for one. I'm actually planning on a few winter trips with my Grizz to re-familiarize myself with it and then decide. It would be a easy way to cut 5 pounds tho...
And finally, the 'Disclaimer':
I'm a nobody. Not sponsored by, affiliated with, or pro staff for anyone. Just some guy that loves, lives, works and plays in the the outdoors and backcountry. I know, and have gotten friendly over the years, with Kevin and Angie of SO merely as a satisfied paying customer. Angie sees many of my hunting/backpacking pictures thru other social media and so, I think, offered me a chance to try their pack out. I appreciate the opportunity and, as a 'many time unsuccessfully reformed gear-nut', have enjoyed trying this new pack out. Thanks & well done, Paradox!
Need to do a write up of the Paradox during my Colorado pack hunt. I was MOST impressed with the Talon's ability to compress the load to my back and not allow a load of meat to "bowling ball" to the bottom of the pack. That, with the load lifter extensions was huge.
Thanks for the write up. Sounds like it works fine for day pack use then transitions to haul out an elk & then camp. I have been looking for a lighter pack.
Honestly, I think that ability to transition from heavy hauler role, to 'daypack with heavy hauling capabilities' and so on, while not be a 'poorly comprised' backpack, is one of the Paradox's strengths. It's lighter than many 'pure' day packs, not overly bulky when compressed, and yet has the suspension and stiff frame to really handle weight. They really did their homework on this one!
Originally Posted by prm
Thanks for the write up. Sounds like it works fine for day pack use then transitions to haul out an elk & then camp. I have been looking for a lighter pack.
I've had a tester here since early September. Unfortunately, we had a project at work go horribly wrong, and I got stuck working. My vacation in the middle of September, I was flat on my ass sick with pneumonia. I spent the last 4 days of that vacation bowhunting rutting antelope in eastern MT. (it didn't totally suck)
I played with the pack quite a bit, and took it for several walks around the neighborhood after work. Right away, I loved the bag on this thing (I think I've got the 7000" monster in Xpack, with a Talon Day) I've never been a fan of packs that require excessive accesorization to get the cubes needed. Nor have I been a fan of bags with zippers into the main compartment, or sleeping bag access points (I've never needed a sleeping bag in a hurry) The fact that it's waterproof could be a huge advantage for me. Springtime in NW Montana is wet and rainy. I love the fact that the bag is big, and bombproof. Also, after taking Kevin and Wes (Big W) advice, I just threw a bunch of [bleep] in there loose and let the compression system do it's job. I'm starting to like that approach, it saves time, and distributes a load better than my current "[bleep] with everything and compress it all in Sea to Summit dry sacks, then stuff those in a pack and compress the whole over engineered pile of [bleep]" method. The layout of the bag works well with KevinT system. It's big inch, but taller and wider, with about a 7" thickness. It's layout just lends itself to good compression on loose loads.
The compression on the Day Talon is the best I've seen on a pack, and it's simple. Two things really impress me here... One, I'm a bowhunter. This thing packs a 60" recurve with a bowquiver on it like it was engineered too. It also packs the Bowtech Assassin I have here with equal ability. Also, us stickburners are going to love the long pocket the Day Talon has. I can pack an EdT cylinder stove in it and not worry about the compression of the pack turning it into something that would look like what Millbillies do to beer cans when they're done with them.
The belt.... Holy [bleep]. That thing just works, and it's comfortable as hell. Even buddies I let try the pack on all make a point to comment on it. It really is the best I've ever encountered. You can put 100 Lbs of sand in this pack and do jumping jacks and it won't slip (yes, I did...)
My only bitch about the pack was the harness. No matter what I did, it bit me pretty good up front. Even with loads of 50 Lbs, it wasn't fun for me. Kevin got me Version 3.0 harness a couple weeks ago, and I got to take the pack for a lap around the Ghetto today.... It's 100% better with the newest harness. Not quite perfect, but given the rest of the packs attributes, it's liveable. I haven't tested the new harness with a load under 50 Lbs. My 3-4 day trips almost never go over 40 anymore, and an overnighter seldom over 35. I'm betting if I had 100 Lbs of meat and horns in it, I wouldn't give a [bleep] about the harness
It's a damn good pack, and I know it's going to get better. I have no affiliation with Seek Outside or Paradox Packworks other than the fact that I've gotten to know Kevin and Angie over the years as both a customer and BHA member.
Great report Dan....wish I could have held on to a tester as long as you got to....but alas they didn't let me run it through the passes as much as I would have liked and wanted it back after hearing my feedback
I agree. In my limited use with the Paradox (I only packed out a mountain goat) the frame seem stout especially considering the weight. If I were you I'd use two different dry bags rather than one big on. One for all your gear and one for the meat/hide if for no other reason than to keep your gear clean.
I agree. In my limited use with the Paradox (I only packed out a mountain goat) the frame seems VERY stout especially considering the weight. If I were you I'd use two different dry bags rather than one big on. One for all your gear and one for the meat/hide if for no other reason than to keep your gear clean.
I may as well let the cat out of the pack bag as well, we will have a few new packbags and components shortly after the new year. Mostly different size roll top bags and different size Talons as well.
I may as well let the cat out of the pack bag as well, we will have a few new packbags and components shortly after the new year. Mostly different size roll top bags and different size Talons as well.
Thanks.
I just watched your video. Now when you say the packbag is waterproof, does that mean it's truly water proof, like you can use it as a floatation device if you needed to? Or Goretex waterproof that is water proof until it it scrapes through wet brush and then water soaks through? Will my stuff be dry if I slog through a rainforest for hours with wet foliage and a downpour? It it truly is waterproof, I'll probably get the whole set up.
And, Is the day pack that straps on the outside of the bag waterproof too? Or will water come in through the zippers?
The XPAC fabric of the pack bag is waterproof to 200 PSI. Zippers are not waterproof, but do have a zipper garage. Stitch holes are not waterproof. Zippers are optional on the pack bags, so it is a trade off of convenience vs. water proofing. Stitch holes can be seam sealed to prevent leakage.
So the short answer is fabric will not wet out or leak through, stitch hole / seams and zippers might. Zippers are optional. The day pack is the same material, same limitations.
Blood from the inside washes out very easily and will not stain inside of pack bag. On the outside of pack bag, it is not likely to have a noticeable stain.
It depends on the fabric. For example , xpac is about 100 times more waterproof,than most tents. It's is about 8 to 10 times higher than standard goretex
Yeah, the material is waterproof not water resistant. Big difference there.
For those wondering why we use a non-waterproof side zipper in an otherwise waterproof-able bag....
A truly GOOD waterproof zipper that is durable is extremely expensive. Think drysuit scuba equipment, maybe kayak skirt zipper.
Most "waterproof" zippers are merely urethane coated zippers that are water resistant. The downfall here is that the urethane coating wears down and starts to separate from the zipper. These zippers wear out much faster than a standard zip.
What we use is a standard zipper, but in a vertical orientation, and we sew it in so that it is highly water resistant. In our testing water tended to enter through the stitch holes around the zipper instead of through the zipper teeth. Seam seal those holes and you've got a very water resistant (rain, not submerged or whitewater rafting) pack bag.
Get a roll top pack bag with no zipper and then seam seal it and it may be truly waterproof.
A few size comparison photos...the nalgene is a 1.5L for size reference.
This is the 4800 empty without extensions vs a 4800 with extensions and stuffed. There is a significant difference in how these setups function. Lowered and compressed the pack feels like a daypack.
4800 vs 6300, to show the size difference.
This shows all three shots side by side.
And finally, a quartering profile of the 4800 showing my preferred spotter / tripod carry.
Okay, great photos. For the first time I can see some real detail of these packs and get a feel for size. But some questions: I'm not seeing the capacity I would want in that 4800 bag, but it also looks rather loosely stuffed. I'm thinking packing in a four day camp and using it daily in "daypack" mode. I don't see enough room there but then, I'm not a minimalist. Is it reasonable to envision another drybag with sleeping bag and perhaps the tent strapped outside the main packbag?
Also, no "daypack mode" photo of the 6300. Can you just carry some day supplies in the Talon with the bag empty then utilize the bag for meat hauling if needed, without feeling like you're just hauling around a bunch of needless stuff. Not sure what I'm asking exactly. I don't NEED the bigger bag except to pack in. I could do fine with the smaller bag if I can strap on a couple of bigger items on the outside.
Yes, you can tell I'm searching for the "perfect" pack. I think this could be THE one but still undecided about the best bag.
One more thing, that rear picture, is that the day Talon or the new bigger Talon?
The 4800 is plenty big for me to do four days in. If you tend to be a maximalist rather than minimalist then get the 6300. For 2014 we're offering the 6300 as a roll top as well as a drawstring.
Yes, you can strap an additional dry bag, bear can, or whatever on the outside of the 4800. The most common places to strap stuff is under the bag compressed with the load shelf, under the talon on the front of the bag, or on top of the bag using over the top straps.
I didn't take a photo of the 6300 in daypack mode because it would have been redundant. It compresses down as small as the 4800. The Talon really sucks an empty pack bag up and controls it so it doesn't flop around and annoy you. It works well for that.
In those pictures I've got one of the first Day Talons. The newer Day Talons look a bit more refined with zipper garages, etc. We don't have good photos of the bigger Talon yet.
The Talon is bigger than I had envisioned from what I saw on the website. I believe I could get by nicely with the 4800. I could always strap the tent bag or sleeping pad outside.
These photos are great. This is the first time I've really been able to see the detail and size comparisons, in addition to the actual scale of the packs and bags when worn. The Talon is a good example. I've been seeing a little bitty "pod" attachment. It's bigger, and actually useful appearing, in these photos. Thanks for posting. These photos need to be on the website.
Oh and Rockchucker, it's cool you're one of identical triplets. Your two brothers look just like you. I hear the odds of identical triplets is astronomically high!
Snubbie, the Day Talon is a great size for three season use IMO. It is a very nice daypack, running pack, and good for organizing and compressing the bigger pack bags. The bigger Day Talon will be really good for winter when you need bulkier gear.
I laughed out loud at the triplets comment. Triple the ugly!
If so, then no. That package comes with a Base Talon, not a Day Talon. The Base Talon is a single compartment of 1000 ci with zipper access. It does not have its own harness so it can't be used as a daypack.
The Day Talon has two main zippered compartments, two other small pockets, and a large bladder pocket. Plus it has its own shoulder harness so it can function as a daypack.
The Day Talon is more expensive than the Base Talon because it is much more complicated to cut and sew. The Base Talon is cheaper and 8 oz lighter.
The ideal package to me would be the 4800 bag and an 1800 Day Tallon. Plenty of room for a spike camp and a boned out deer plus a day pack. I'd like to see that combo listed. When is the next sale?
If so, then no. That package comes with a Base Talon, not a Day Talon. The Base Talon is a single compartment of 1000 ci with zipper access. It does not have its own harness so it can't be used as a daypack.
The Day Talon has two main zippered compartments, two other small pockets, and a large bladder pocket. Plus it has its own shoulder harness so it can function as a daypack.
The Day Talon is more expensive than the Base Talon because it is much more complicated to cut and sew. The Base Talon is cheaper and 8 oz lighter.
But they're both the same size right? I really have no interest in using the Talon for a day pack but as long as it is the same size as the one in your pictures I'd be fine.
Snubbie, the Day Talon and Base Talon are the same size. The new larger Talon is around 800 ci bigger.
Forkedhorn, we were at SHOT and ATA, and will probably make it up to BC for the wild sheep show, and will probably be at BHA as well as Trail Days on the east coast.
If anyone plans to attend any of those and wants to see a pack email or PM me or kevin_t and we'll try to make it happen.
Here are a few more photos. We should have videos etc in the next couple days.
A few of the details. - All pack bags standard with covered side access zip. Very weatherproof. I would not consider it long term submersion, but should be fine for any normal wilderness travel. This zipper is optional, and you can choose to not have a zipper. There is not change in pricing. Get what you want. - Expanded the Roll Top Sizing to include 6300 and 3900 - Added a lighter weight fabric (Tan) - Universal Pocket Lid (shown in camo). Will be standard on Dual Draw string 6300 and an option on Roll Tops. It can be used on any bag, or on the frame with a Talon. - Day Talon 1800 (Not Shown in any of photos) - Optional Chamber pocket set can work with any pack bag.
Already in production are - New harness - Pals on Hipbelt - Large Hipbelts
Yes, there is soon to be another frame option that shaves an additional 3 - 3.5 ounces off the weight. It is the frame I have been using the majority of the year. I would consider it fine for most everything as long as you are not crazy with it. The heavier frame is more resilient to abuse and is what I would choose if I considered myself hard on gear. I don't really consider myself hard on gear and the lighter frame still provides plenty of stiffness to support heavy loads.
Snubbie, the Day Talon and Base Talon are the same size. The new larger Talon is around 800 ci bigger.
Forkedhorn, we were at SHOT and ATA, and will probably make it up to BC for the wild sheep show, and will probably be at BHA as well as Trail Days on the east coast.
If anyone plans to attend any of those and wants to see a pack email or PM me or kevin_t and we'll try to make it happen.
Any chance you'll be a the Great American Outdoor show in Harrisburg, PA (1-9 Feb)?
Here are a few field photos of some of the various configurations.
For note, the packbag used was a 4800 but not the newer one. The newer one is a bit cleaner looking.
Also, yes it was thin snow for ski's. There was some down low and a 4.5 miles total that could be skied. There was some also , skiing with just your shoes on sort of stuff as well. I had no idea what to expect, I doubt anyone had been in there for a couple months, as evidenced by how relaxed the animals were.
4800 , Lid, and Base Talon about 6800 total CI. ~ 4 lbs.
4800 and Lid no compression panel. Lots of oak brush busting. Ski's were lowered to avoid catching on brush.
I'm trying to convince myself I need that lid. But I'm having a hard time, even with the picture(and new video on your site) envisioning the practical useable space available in that lid. I know it's like 600 cu.in. but, is it like what you may find on a typical backpack? I have a Dana Design Terraplane and I DO use that space and it is surprising what I can stuff in there. But I don't know the capacity of it so don't know if it can be compared.
Can you give me an example of some typical gear that can be stuffed in there? Or maybe a better idea, how many rolls of toilet paper could you put in there? No, I don't carry multiple rolls with me but it would give me a clear idea of how big that space is.
It is usable. The 600 CI is an under estimate, and based on a couple early production samples that were based on our standard lid. In the end, after using the earlier sample we were not happy with the usability aspect, so we went back to an earlier prototype styling with a focus on usability and trimming weight. I can fit a 65 mm spotter across it, a fair amount of day gear or a puffy. It has one security pocket, which is decent size as well. I'll update information on it soon. The photos shown above are near correct, with some minor styling , mounting , coverage changes. Personally , I found it very usable and lighter than our other lid. Is it the lightest way to get volume ? No the bag is, but I would use it, and find it worthwhile. Keep in mind I have not used a lid in years, as I usually remove them due to how much they weigh.
That is one of the early Day Talons. The production Day Talons look a bit cleaner, but I've got so much long term testing in that one I hate to switch it out.
The pack bag is a 4800 Rolltop, again one of the early models. In that pic it is stuffed with a couple jackets, extra clothes, food, plus a DSLR camera bag, etc.
Here is a rifle carry solution we've been working on.
The advantages as I see them with this system is that it is detachable, weighs 0.4 oz and it holds the rifle very securely but maintains very fast access.
Also, the rifle's weight is transferred to the pack frame entirely, and the rifle can be accessed and put back without taking the pack off. It doesn't hurt that it utilizes the most dominant rifle carry system existing - the sling you already have.
Been doing that for years with my external frame packs. It works very well, but doesn't transfer the weight to the hips like the KGB does. It is easier and handier to use than the GB, though, and the rifle carries in a more natural position. Downside is that it isn't quite as secure as the GB.
Jordan, I like this system a lot. I will disagree that it doesn't transfer the rifle weight to the hips. Our pack is very efficient at load transfer to the hips, and placing the rifle on the Gunhook effectively transfers the weight down into the pelvis.
Security is good with this system, while maintaining quick access. An optional buttstock strap will increase security and not impede access by much.
I'm speaking purely from experience with my old external frame packs, having only tried on the Paradox pack in a friend's living room. I did notice how well the waist belt was designed, so I'm sure it transfers the weight to the hips better than my old packs did.
A QR buttstock strap would be skookum. That'd keep the rifle securely in place, almost no matter what position you're in while hiking/scrambling.
I have one ordered ,a 6300 roll top with base talon, vx 33 multicam. I have been using a Gregory for 15+ yrs. and anything over 60 lbs. is unfun. The belt on the Gregory does not stay put ,and I think the lumbar pad could be the culprit. Frame stays and such on the Gregory seem to start "collapsing" after 60 lbs.and there seems there is no way to get it to ride comfortable.
Very nice overview. The more I see of your pack the better it looks. Funny thing, until just recently I didn't realize that the base talon had a zippered compartment. Looking at it on the web site and other videos it looked like a straight compression panel. That zipper compartment would be way handy. Good job.
Jeeper, frame selection is done during purchase, so it is a choice the Standard or the UL. They are essentially the same and can be swapped out easily. The primary difference is the Standard Frame is a thicker walled material than the UL. I did most of my testing with the UL (well over 100 lbs, jumping etc). As far as recommendation on the frame, up to 100 lbs or more they are identical. The UL might be more likely to damage on a long drop, or fall on a fall with a big load but those are corner case scenarios (think rapid deceleration while heavy weighted, or huge impact while heavily weighted) . For most users the UL should be fine, for hard or extreme users they should get the Standard frame.
BBerg - I don't think carry on is an issue. I know for one customer we did a slightly shorter 22" frame with longer extensions for carry on purposes. That user is a member of this forum, so perhaps they will chime in.
Kevin
edited .. clarified where UL frame is more likely to fail. Thus far it has not failed in normal, heavy usage and I do not expect it to, unless I do something crazy with it
I have one ordered ,a 6300 roll top with base talon, vx 33 multicam. I have been using a Gregory for 15+ yrs. and anything over 60 lbs. is unfun. The belt on the Gregory does not stay put ,and I think the lumbar pad could be the culprit. Frame stays and such on the Gregory seem to start "collapsing" after 60 lbs.and there seems there is no way to get it to ride comfortable.
Not trying to start an ideological pack design war, but most 3 piece belts loose integrity around 60 lbs. If a lumbar pad fits you perfectly, then maybe you get a higher rating. The failure is at the junction of the lumbar and wings and is usually compensated for by just having a longer frame or using stiffeners at the junction. The problem is, a stiff belt has issues as well as they usually don't conform to your body and are prone to slipping (and often cause hip bruising). Manufacturers have been trying to solve that torso collapse at the junction for a long time. Our wrap style belt does not suffer that, instead it focuses on conforming well to your body, and when it does this, your body essentially becomes the stiffener. Our belt will settle some with a heavy load, but it won't suffer a collapse at the junction.
Not sure really. You might contact Nathan (Rockchucker30). We would love to get them in the production cycle, but the reality is we are pretty busy with packs right now, and don't have a lot more capacity at the moment. They are super easy to fashion on your own with duct tape, shock cord and a little carbon tube. I know that is not a "clean" solution, but it will work and honestly is what I would do myself, because I could stand to carry a little duct tape on trips, and I don't worry myself to much about style points. I wish I had a better answer for you, maybe something that was more salesmanship , but that isn't really my style. Kevin
This is my big "gear upgrade" this year. I've got mine ordered, just anxious to get it. I figure delivery time will be about the time I'm getting back to normal from an upcoming shoulder surgery next week. So this will work out okay.
One suggestion Kevin. Realizing you've spent a monumental amount of time updating your website and the videos are great but...
As a consumer trying to make an educated choice in packs, It would have been helpful to me to see a close up of the lid. I ordered without the lid. I wanted the lid, but based on what I could see of it, I just wasn't convinced how useful it would be for me. I would like to see a close-up of the lid in use, a 360� view, and your hands reaching in and out and gear being stuffed in and out. To me that would show the overall useful size, capacity, and usability. As it is, I've only got a superficial understanding of the lid in use, and thus didn't order it.
I offer this strictly as constructive. I'm redoing a website now and it is VERY time-intensive, and I realize the time you've spent on this. So please don't think I'm complaining. Just pointing out something that may help but it is just my opinion of what I wanted. Thanks for all the time you've spent trying to clarify!
Criticism is always encouraged. Criticism helps you get better. In the end, it is about presenting the information in a way that is honest and most easily understood by the majority of people, so I welcome any comments you or others may have.
Regarding the lid, once again being real honest, I had my hands on one really for a day here and a day there. All of the production lids are being used to fill orders and I have to stand inline !!!! When I get one, with a little time, we will get better photos and information.
Now here are my personal preferences. The lid is really nice, and easy to use, but if I am taking one item for day use gear and organization on a hunting trip, it will be a Talon because of how much it helps compression. I will glady use the lid on a general purpose backpacking trip, but for hunting it will be in addition to Talon and in which case at that point, I would probably down size the pack bag, and drop the side zipper on the pack bag as well to offset some of the additional weight.
The main difference between the UL and Standard frame IMO is cosmetic. The UL frame gets just a bit of crinkling in the past 90 degree bends in the bottom of the frame. That is the main reason we selected the standard frame to start out with - because it gives a nice clean appearance. I believe Kevin and I both sort of prefer the UL for the weight savings.
I've tested the UL frame past 120-130 lbs and the standard frame well north of 150. They both do well, but as Kevin pointed out the UL will be a bit more susceptible to shock under load. But really if you're taking a hard fall while loaded with 100+ lbs on a steep slope or boulder field then you've got bigger problems than the shock load rating of your backpack.
Snubbie, we're updating the site as we speak, and will continue updating more photos and upgrading media over the next several weeks.
+1 on what snubbie says about the website. Not pig piling or bashing but having to toggle between the products page, blog and web reviews to try to get a good "picture" of the options and various components available is a bit frustrating. I've been patiently waiting for the new products to be added.
Ahh, if I would have refreshed while I was replying to snubbies post I would have seen that you were on top of things with recent updates! My bad!
The web site has been updated. We will be adding more photo galleries over the coming weeks. Let us know if you have any questions. Lightweight Backpacks
Kevin, May I ask for a small description of the different materials available for a 3900 roll top bag, and their differences in weight and in price? VX21 X-Pac X33 X-Pac VX07 X-Pac VX42 X-Pac Cordura Dyneema Spectra Cuben Fiber 210 D Ripstop Nylon Pack Cloth Thank you!
Not all of those will we make a pack out of, but many we can or can incorporate in, but using "some" of those results in more of our custom shop and a price quote.
We do use regularly the following:
VX21 our most popular. 3900 Weight with side zip is 15 ounces. Stone Gray X33 , this replaces our VX33. It is a bit lighter than the VX33 was but retains the same 330D Cordura face on the interior, but looses a little abrasion resistance on the interior. As far as XPAC goes, The VX series has a significant interior layer. The weight is within an ounce of VX21, it does cost a bit more, about $30 - $40 on a pack bag. 210D Tan Double Ripstop. This is a lightweight but strong fabric. It;s not stiff, like XPAC, and I have grown to like the stiffness of XPAC. 10 ounces on 3900 VX07 - Same as VX07 but lighter. Weight is about 12 ounces for a pack bag. This would be custom shop and have some surcharges depending on color availability etc.
What would be custom: Cordura - Standard 500D Cordura. not waterproof, but water resistant, pack cover recommended in wet environments. We have black in stock, a custom color would require some surcharge. Weight probably 18 ounces on a 3900
VX42- XPAC This is a heavy duty XPAC. It is more abrasion resistant than Cordura based on various lab tests due to it's smooth finish. Color Black only, weight approx 20 ounces on a 3900 There would be some surcharge
Cuben Fiber - 2,9 ounce Cuben, this will weigh around 10 ounces in a 3900. It has a stiff feel like XPAC. Waterproof fabric, but still requires seam sealing. There is a surcharge depending on project. Most projects about $50.00 . We shipped one yesterday.
Those are the ones I would be inclined to look at.
For me , I think the VX21 is a really nice fabric. If I felt I was really rough on gear, I would go VX42 or X33, and if I was more worried about weight I would go the VX07, 210D Tan, or Cuben. What I run now ? The 210D Tan, and I'll probably use it a better part of a season, or maybe run a Cuben one for awhile as well, or I might even use a VX07 one as well. The Tan is not my favorite, because I have come to like the stiffness of XPAC, but the tan is fine and saves 5 ounces. What I used extensively last year, the VX21, I loved it, but I like to save 5 ounces if I can.
Got mine last week. Had shoulder surgery two weeks ago but I'm gonna try to do a short hike with a light load here in the next day or so. The waist belt hits me right in the sweet spot and feels good so I believe it will ride with virtually no weight on the sore shoulder.
Got mine a few weeks back. I'm not gonna lie, I sold a pack that I really liked when I purchased the Paradox. Kinda had second thoughts the whole time, waiting for delivery. As soon as I got it, did a quick inspection, (looks great) and then loaded it up with about 45 pounds, just to get it adjusted and check the fit... Got it all sorted, did some stairs and moving around with it... and remembered... This is why I bought this pack! It carries really nice.
Now I'm gonna have to order a pocketed lid to finish it off.
And there is the little bit of disclosure that is needed. The attacks on me for pointing out the facts leads me to believe that there is little honesty unless forced. Sreekers obviously has the ambition to be an outdoor writer and you , Kevin T / Seek outside , are giving him an outlet to be heard. That alone is of great value and a form of compensation. The conduct here in the initial denial tells me all I need to know about your integrity. The low class action was not disclosing the interconnected personal and business relationships and pretending that it's all kosher when it's far from pure. Parsings and denials are the acts of the guilty. Until now the only thing that was bothering me was that Sreekers was pretending that this review was COMPLETELY objective. If for no other reason than friendship he is looking through rose colored glasses. The pack may be revolutionary but I certainly wouldn't put my faith in the review. It may shed light on the performance of the packs but like most reviews I will take it with a grain of salt. Actually , after this reaction I'll take it with a pound of salt.
I know NONE of the individuals involved, but seeing enough of your petulance displayed in this thread, I can guarantee that they are more refined that I am or would have been in the same situation. You can take your "salt" and pound it.
That is for sure. Just be advised that the NICE frame is the same length as an ALICE frame. Ask a chiropractor about the "military neck" phenomenom. He'll clue you in. There is a fine line between hard and stupid. Sometimes the [military] goes way over that line to the stupid side. MR made the NICE frame to Army specs. There are far better ways to pack heavy loads.
Truth, if ever written (edited to include other than US Army in the stupidity, as certainly appropriate.
The CFO is giving me "that look". I don't "need" a new pack. I do need the LBO set-up we've been discussing. Is the 6300 large enough to hide a person in (not the CFO, but me - hiding from her)? I may need that option if the Paradox tries to follow me home from Denver.
When you sandwich meat/dry bag/gear between frame and pack bag, is the Talon the only thing holding the bag to the frame?
Tanner
Tanner. Not a dumb question at all. In fact, I feel silly because I didn't know that the bag DID attach to the frame. I just thought it WAS held there by the Talon and the load shelf. I have the 4800 but I assume the 6300 attaches the same way.
First photo is looking down from the upper right hand side of the frame. You can see the strap, that is sewn to the bag, threads through a keeper buckle and attaches to a standard buckle...
...that standard buckle wraps around the frame and attaches to the buckle meeting it from the other side. Which allows pulling it tight against the frame, or making room between the bag and the frame for meat bags, another dry bag, or whatever you want to put between the bag and the frame. The buckle wraps around the frame(see arrow)
The bottom of the bag attaches similarly, but doesn't have the buckle that attaches to the other side, just attaches to the frame and is adjustable in or out.
So the bag can be adjusted tightly against the frame, or loosened up to put something between the packbag and the frame. The Talon can be attached to the compression straps, or the straps wrapped around the bag without the Talon.
To me, that's the beauty of this whole outfit. It is a "system" that can be configured however you wish, even removing the pack bag altogether and using just the frame. If it rides as sweet as everyone says, I believe I chose a winner.
Nothing that dramatic, just lots of crap to carry around. I'd like to see if I can get ahold of a 6300 and see how big the top opening is; that'd give me a good idea.
Got my new Paradox last week and took it out a couple times. Awesome pack. Really like the new shoulder suspension (compared with the prototype) the PALS waist belt is great and the gun hook is amazing. The gun hook even worked great while skiing. I really like how the gun is back out of the way, yet instantly accessible. Probably be selling off some Gunbears here soon. In the Day Talon, I was able to fit my GB Outdoors ax, Gerber saw, Mont-Bell Thermawrap parka and shell jacket on one side, 1st aid kit and possibles kit on the other side.
Nothing that dramatic, just lots of crap to carry around. I'd like to see if I can get ahold of a 6300 and see how big the top opening is; that'd give me a good idea.
Tanner
It's a big bag, Tanner! I'm used to BORA 80/95s and MR Grizzlys, and this bag is still plenty big... Plus, it's pretty flexible for loading, with the option to pack between the frame and bag.
Hi Cuben is custom, but generally available in Gray. It is the lightest of the bunch, but also the most pricey. It does have a stiff feel like the XPAC materials, and is somewhat noisy.
I have done a lot of testing , through oak brush and similar with XPAC, and generally the smoother faced materials fair pretty well because they don't catch on stuff. So yesterday, I hit the slick rock and had a packbag of VX07 in red, and a cuben base talon. I drug the pack up slick rock a few feet a few times, and then I kicked it and let it tumble a few times probably totaling 60 or 80 feet of tumbling. The cuben did get one small puncture wound, and the VX07 XPAC suffered mostly dirt, and maybe a little abrasion.
The 6300 Roll Top is gigantic. The opening is 48 inches circumference. The real volume is probably closer to 6800. I can't imagine people needing a much bigger bag, unless they carry animals and camp in the bag, or use big synthetic cold weather bags. For reference, I used a 5 degree 600 fil down bag, and an 8 man tipi plus normal November gear for 5 days in 4800 / base talon combo. It was a little tight, but certainly doable without anything on the outside.
We do work with some other fabrics, but most of what we sell is Gray VX21 XPAC 4800 Roll Top bags. The newer camo we are using is a bit lighter, and probably not as noisy in cold since the inside finish was changed a bit. If you want something custom we can do it, but none of the materials we work with , including Cordura would we consider quite.
Since there are a lot of comments on how the bag attaches, we have been working on a version called the Unaweep in which the frame and bag are integrated. This will be a great , less expensive option for those of you do not need all the modularity. It is something that can work with current framing , so for instance you could use a Unaweep bag for summer, and then go to the load shelf / detachable bags for hunting season. I'm really impressed with this variation. Angie did a fantastic job from concept to design. IMO the design is the epitome of minimalistic perfection. Very functional, very simple, very capable, nothing extra. This variation in red will be about 2 lbs 12 ounces when complete with a Talon. It will have a slightly different talon as standard. Compression and Suspension is pretty much exactly the same as the standard line up.
Here are a couple photos of the Retro Red. Compressed
Soon, hopefully this week. We just need to hash out final details and pricing. It will probably be a 6 to 8 week lead time, which isn't much more than we are running now.
Thanks for the testing offer, but I think I got this one covered
Pricing is out. For a comfortable, load hauling , true UL pack (it weighs less than many golite packs) I think you will find the pricing very attractive. The differences are subtle and mostly the reduction of some of the modularity (which I know is attractive). This more point based product, saves weight and increases manufacturing efficiency, which saves you money while still retaining the core features and quality. There is not one piece of hardware, that does not have a purpose to the core function. The plus side is, that with a more exposed frame, you can add stuff all over if you desire.
BTW the new gateways packs are ready as well. Available in Sil and Cuben
I carried mine for the first time today. Did a hike, maybe 4-5 miles, nothing grueling. I just loaded a "daypack" load in it: First aid kit, stove & pot, poncho, TP kit, fire starting kit, some doo-dads, snacks, instant beverages, a liter & 1/2 of water, a jacket and.... a Gransfors Bruks Wildlife hatchet! I had an HPG Kitbag on front with camera, compass, .38spl, eyeglasses, etc. Total weight was about 21-22 lbs. With a sore shoulder I cinched down the belt tight and had no issues. The pack was very comfortable, no rub spots, no pinching. The belt held without slipping with no pack weight on the shoulders. The belt is very comfortable & I've never used a pack with a wrap-around belt and without the big lumbar pad. I like that. To me, it's more comfortable and eliminates that pressure point of the lumbar pad.
While this isn't a review, I have nothing but positive impressions. I'm no pack expert and with my sore shoulder it was fairly lightly loaded but I was happy.
I also have no $ interest in the company other than what I have invested in this pack. Kevin T is my dad though. However, that in no way influences what I'm saying here. He made me pay for my pack. Really.
For those with a frame already, is it possible to buy the Unaweep assembly for when you want a light streamlined pack? I'm currently using a drybag and talon, but wouldn't mind something with a few more features.
The Evo platform is designed to adjust from a 24" frame height to a 28" frame height. The reason is that the taller frame is more capable of providing shoulder lift at really heavy loads, while the 24" frame is much more nimble at getting through brush.
The Unaweep is designed to marry the two and use a 26" frame. We have tested this frame height extensively, and feel that it is a great size for most uses.
The Unaweep bag will work on a 24", 26", or 28" frame, but is optimized for the 26". A set of 2" frame extensions is all that will be needed to take a standard frame to the Unaweep height.
smokepole, the Unaweep is a different platform than the Evolution. The Unaweep has some suspension functions built into the packbag, whereas the Evolution has an encasement that allows it to be used without a packbag. The Unaweep cannot be used without the packbag while the Evolution can be used without a bag as a load hauler.
That's clear as mud I know, but I want to make sure you know that to swap from the Unaweep to a 6300 you will have to change from the Unaweep platform to the Evolution platform. It's not as simple (or cheap) as just buying a 6300 and putting it on.
As far as how long it takes...under 10 minutes if you're not really familiar with the process. Kevin does all the final assembly so he can probably swap it in under two.
I think you should look at a 4800 at BHA. Our bags if anything are slightly understated on volume where most are overstated and by comparison. I know our 4800 RT holds more gear than any of the 5000 to 5500 packs I have had around. It is also very easy to add 1000 CI with the lid if desired.
I got a good bounce and got my frame with gray talon today. This thing is light!
I'm not a high country hunter. I plan on using the frame as my do all, utility pack for camping, trapping, laundry hauling and other pretend he-man, tacticool activities Well, maybe some hunting and meat carrying....
I loaded it up with about 50 lbs of books, knifery, whatnots and it will do just fine. It stays ridiculously tight to the body but I did not feel any poking at all. I am totally amazed at how comfortable it carries.
With this frame+suspension, the tote is the backpack. The laundry bag is the backpack. The garbage bag is the backpack. The blue Ikea carry-all is the backpack. The tarp is the backpack... you get the idea
There is a hang location inside the pack bag, although I would not recommend putting a bladder in the bag. The tubing can go through one side of the roll top, but that solution really goes against the advantages of the design. You could hang one in a base talon, but personally, I think the better solution would be to attach a bladder to the webbing where the Ladder Locks are for the over the top straps and then hold it down with the over the top straps. You might want to put the assembly in a bag to protect it. The Day Talon has a bladder pocket as well. There are ways to do it, just not an integrated way.
Carried mine lightly loaded for a workout today. I did "the hill", a steep descent then back up and down the front side, with plenty of side hilling. Only about 15 lbs in the pack but it's like it isn't even there. No, I mean NO adjustment during the one hour of up & down.
My legs will give way before my back and shoulders. It really holds loads super tight to your back because of the lack of padding there - just mesh.
Here's a little under 50 lbs.
Just messing with the Talon It can sure expand to take large things. The target is only 30 lbs - handles it comfortably like it's barely there. I am totally amazed.
Put a few miles on mine this past weekend with about 50 lbs. and liked what it felt like. This was flat ground , I hope to put some miles in the hills soon.
Took my new pack out for a test drive yesterday with about 40 lbs in it, 3 miles. Made my glutes and hip flexors burn, which is a good thing since that's where I want the work to be done. I like it so far.
First, we have added a Base Talon Hydration to the mix. This is a Base Talon with a mesh hydration pouch and a hang loop. We also added a buckle for an over the top strap. This is available in Gray VX21 and Black VX42. Black VX42 is a very robust fabric, and in testing has better abrasion resistance than 500D Cordura, plus it is water proof. With these additions, (we added the top buckle on the standard base talon as well), i do not think there is a better compression system , bag hauler available. Think of it as the strength of an external , the comfort of an internal, with a purpose built compression system.
Secondly, because we get so many customization requests, and these are admittedly difficult to keep track of and manage, we broke customizations out in to it's own category. This includes zipper and hydration port access. Now, you purchase the customizations as add ons.
Finally, we have been working with some lighter and more robust fabrics as well. As mentioned the VX42 is an extremely robust fabric for hard use. For lighter use, we have been doing some Cuben Fiber 2.92 oz. This in a complete configuration will save 6 to 8 ounces on most setups, bringing more minimalistic setups (for example Unaweep / no side zipper) to well under the 3 lb bench mark. It also gives you the ability (as an example) to have a summer time setup / and a hard use setup as well. Great flexibility form the same suspension.
Posted this on the workout thread, then realized it belongs here.
I got a Paradox a few weeks ago and have been loading it up with 40-50 lbs. and doing a 3-mile loop, off trail, to get in shape for the mtns. Yesterday, I took a 45# load and put it in a different lightweight pack, one I'd used last summer and fall, and liked. I thought the Paradox was more comfortable in how it handled the load, I like the pack so far. Haven't tried any heavy loads yet, but 45# is still more than I normally carry in the mtns. Except for after tags are punched.
We will have a booth at Trail Days in Damascus, VA Fri-Sun this week. My wife and I are driving up today and taking several packs with us. If anyone plans to attend then it'll be a good opportunity to check the gear out in person.
Last Thursday my wife and I were setting up our outdoor booth at Appalachian Trail Days in Damascus, VA. It was raining sideways at the time. It was one of those miserable miserable days.
The AT ran about 10 feet in front of our space, and hikers would periodically trudge by in the slopping rain. One poor guy was wearing a pack that was about 50 liters in size, and he had a rain cover on it that must have been a 70-80 liter size.
It had rained so much that the bottom of his rain cover had actually filled up with water, and it was swinging back and forth. Probably two quarts of water was hitting his rear on each step.
Guys, THAT is why we use X-Pac for our pack bags. Kevin and I have both been there, done that, and it royally SUCKS.
It poured the next day as well, so I left my personal pack out to get drenched. The contents were dry as a bone afterward.
Got my Evo 4800 today, ordered it July 12. It had to cross the Pacific Ocean. Looks good so far. Just got to make some minor adjustments for a perfect fit and learn about the whole system. It's a very light pack! Gonna have to test it soon.
We have added a dual long pocket talon. Photos will be up soon, but it's essentially the same, with dual long pockets.
They will be available at a retail store in Helena MT within the next few days, so if you want to try one on, see it in person , purchase on the spot, that is an excellent option.
Bump for a big thanks for the Seek Outside folks for getting my pack to me in time for my trip Across Admiralty. It came about rather quickly and moved up a week putting me in a time crunch. They came through in fine fashion!!! And the pack worked great. It rained some almost every day and I never saw a drop of water inside. This has the 4800 bag and hydration Talon. It was plenty big for all my gear one day of food for four and two packrafts. Many thanks to all of you at Seek Outside.
This pic is on day five so all the food is gone and there is a lot of extra room.
We get a lot of questions on seam sealing. The pack bags are designed with almost all seams in a vertical orientation, which helps water shed instead of penetrating seams, so in light quick rains you will probably not need to seam seal. Heavy rain is a different story.
Seam seal the exterior seams. sealing the interior seams does little good. I like to thin silicone with mineral spirits pretty hard, then suck it up in a small syringe and use that to inject it into the seams. This leaves a clean line that looks better than brushing, but brushing is faster.
Test after it dries to check for water penetration. Showers, sprinklers, hoses, etc work well for testing. If it passes a 15 min drenching rain test then you're good.
Here's a video on sealing. A bit long and not exciting, but hopefully helpful.
Another quick note - Side zips don't affect water penetration in rain if the pack is in a vertical orientation (like its being worn).
I honestly didn't expect the side zip to perform as well as it did, but I haven't seen any water penetration through the zipper even in some very tough testing. The Talon and compression tend to hold the rain flap down, and water never reaches the zipper.
If the pack were laying suspension side down with the flap facing up so water could pool in it then I'm sure water would penetrate then.
Here is a photo of the coyote XPAC VX21. It is a pretty good looking combo. We also have a few other little accessories in the pipeline (Belt pockets / etc)
Those of you with the side zip on a 6300 bag, how often do you find you use it? Worth getting? I like the idea of a pack that I can leave out in the rain without worrying about water pooling in the zipper flap, but I also like the idea of added convenience when accessing things in a large pack bag. Thoughts?
I have not taken mine for an overnight trip yet, but I considered the side zipper essential. Even loading some stuff in it for a test hike I just used the side zip. Ill only use the top for major loading and unloading. You could just lay the Talon over the zipper when setting it out in the rain. Or, as was mentioned, just set it upright,
I went for a walk with my Evolution frame. Felt really good when I started out. Couldn't really tell I had 40 pounds in it. As I walked the belt started to press on the front of my hipbones and became a little uncomfortable. Is this something that could be fixed with a bigger belt?
I had a 40 lb bag of softener salt in it. Any time I leaned forward it caused my back to become humped and push against the bag, which caused the entire pack to move away from my body, putting a lot of pressure and discomfort on my waist. However, I'm not sure if that will be different when I get the bag and load it up. Anyone else have this issue? Any advice/tips is appreciated.
..... which caused the entire pack to move away from my body, putting a lot of pressure and discomfort on my waist.
The pack moving away from your body makes it sound like you don't have the load lifters snugged down. The usual way to do that is to loosen up the load lifters and shoulder straps, get the hip belt adjusted right first, then snug down the shoulder straps second, and then snug down the load lifters last. Don't be afraid to crank down on them; they bring the load close to your body.
Then after you crank down the load lifters, the shoulder straps may be a little too tight and need to be loosened a bit.
Backroads and Smokepole, Thanks for the tips. I'll try them when I get back home. Part of the problem is the fact that the bag of salt is rounded a little, so I'm assuming it sits closer to my body than a bag packed with gear would.
I received an Evo with 6300 and Base Talon this week from Ed and Capital Sports. Try as I might, I just don't feel I'm getting it adjusted right. With close to 30 pounds in the bag, I adjusted the harness so the top was about even with my C7 as instructed on the Seek Outside site. Adjusted this way, there is a sizable gap between the harness and my back. Is this normal? Load lifters were pulled tight, which did move the frame closer but the harness still "floats." Honestly, with this nowhere near heavy load it wasn't all that comfortable. I must be doing something wrong.
- put the pack on without fastening the hip belt. - loosened up the load lifters. - snugged the shoulder straps down. - Fastened and checked hip belt location. (it was a bit too low, so I changed the belt mount to the frame to the last hole, to raise the belt an inch or so. Then everything fit.
I had the 4" frame extensions in. I could have also shortened the extensions to effectively put the shoulder harness closer to the belt, but I didn't want to before checking out the load lifter geometry.
At the end of it all, I cut 1" off the frame extensions, and that, along with the belt in the highest mounting position, puts everything where it belongs, with the shoulder harness riding close.
Load lifter engagement will lift the shoulder harness a bit at the back, as designed.
I've carried it several miles up and down the hill with about a 30 lb load. Very comfy.
I received an Evo with 6300 and Base Talon this week from Ed and Capital Sports. Try as I might, I just don't feel I'm getting it adjusted right. With close to 30 pounds in the bag, I adjusted the harness so the top was about even with my C7 as instructed on the Seek Outside site. Adjusted this way, there is a sizable gap between the harness and my back. Is this normal? Load lifters were pulled tight, which did move the frame closer but the harness still "floats." Honestly, with this nowhere near heavy load it wasn't all that comfortable. I must be doing something wrong.
Send us a side profile photo to our email address and we can advise. It is likely something in the harness adjustment. Also , please send us height / belt size info as reference
You adjust the harness with the buckles just below the pack frame. You may have to feed the webbing through the triglides by hand.
I've done that, from as short as possible to as long as possible, with many stops in-between. And there is no slack in the tensioning webbing as pointed out in Kevin's fitting video.
Thanks MM. Does the Unaweep not have an adjustable harness to change torso length rather than moving belt and changing extension length?
Yes the Unaweep does have the torso adjustment in the upper suspension.
I fitted it up per my own intuition.....then later watched Kevin's fitting video.......grin.
After watching the vid, and becoming more aware of all the different adjustment points, I did play with it and fine tune a little.
The main thing for me was adjusting the hip belt above my hip bones/muscles. I had it a tad low on the first use, and it was tiring on the hip muscles. Once I raised the belt ride up a bit, voila!
I'm not sure of the intended load balance, but I'm probably spreading the weight 60/40 between my shoulders and hips. For me that feels pretty comfy.
Then again I've only had about 30 lbs in it. I'm going to load it up with about 90 lbs and see how it feels.
Kevin- I did as you suggested and lowered the frame to the bottom grommet and also raised the harness a bit. With the 2" extensions it does feel better with the recommended fitting weight. Without the extensions I've adjusted the harness as high as I can and not have any slack and this will work pretty good to carry my regular hunting gear. Thanks for the help.
I push all my gear in the bag down to the bottom, then use the middle compression straps and Talon to make a load shelf about halfway up the frame to carry the meat.
As an aside, I hunted with the Paradox for the first time this year. I was impressed. Unfortunately, I don't seem to have any pictures. It was loaded with everything for six days in the woods and weighed in the neighborhood of 50 lbs. It felt great.
I've used pretty much all variations, and over the weekend got to se all of our packs used in one way or another on pack outs (I used two variations myself). Over all , for me, it just depends on what it is and where I need to go. Overall I prefer in a pack bag, and compressed well as it keeps stuff in place better, but I can strap it between a talon and suspension (did that twice this weekend) and it still works fine for what is needed.
That is just my 2 cents. It depends as much on the other gear I am carrying and how much I want to keep it separate from the meat or what options I have available.
You guys could use some more pictures on your website. Makes it kind of hard to decide if a pack is worth a closer look when the only photo offered is of a fully stuffed pack.
I feel we can do a better job of photos , but we have a good mix of real world and standard product photos in various configurations, as it is highly adaptable
I feel we can do a better job of photos , but we have a good mix of real world and standard product photos in various configurations, as it is highly adaptable
I've given some thought to ordering a Evo pack frame and bag numerous times, but haven't committed to doing so yet. The times I've went thru the website to estimate a total for the bag/frame/talon choices, it can be a little hard to follow at times.
Please don't take that the wrong way, I'd just like to see an overly simplified "pack builder" module that would outline the choices and features along the way, in a simplified pattern for those of us who are not as well versed in backpack terminology. Kind of a Cliff Notes type deal, if that makes sense.
I appreciate what you're doing as a company and the wish you all the best success going forward. We need more start-up companies in this country, and I'd like to see as much American labor as well as materials incorporated into those companies/products as possible.
I've given some thought to ordering a Evo pack frame and bag numerous times, but haven't committed to doing so yet. The times I've went thru the website to estimate a total for the bag/frame/talon choices, it can be a little hard to follow at times.
Please don't take that the wrong way, I'd just like to see an overly simplified "pack builder" module that would outline the choices and features along the way, in a simplified pattern for those of us who are not as well versed in backpack terminology. Kind of a Cliff Notes type deal, if that makes sense.
I appreciate what you're doing as a company and the wish you all the best success going forward. We need more start-up companies in this country, and I'd like to see as much American labor as well as materials incorporated into those companies/products as possible.
Thanks and understood. There will be simplified versions in the next few weeks, we are sort of working through what that will look like. It will probably mean a couple / possibly a few options go away as well.
I feel we can do a better job of photos , but we have a good mix of real world and standard product photos in various configurations, as it is highly adaptable
Those photos in the link are better. I didn't see them in my initial visit to the site, so maybe it's just a navigability issue.
Generally, I'd say websites need enough photos to show every major function of a pack. I assume those packs can be loaded from the top, but I haven't seen a picture. Internal pockets? I can't tell if it has them or not. Exactly how does the load shelf attach? IMO, all important questions.
I realize these things are probably easy to overlook from your end. I'm just trying to give you the perspective of someone totally unfamiliar with your product and trying to learn more from a website.
The website can be frustrating, but after a few modifications my Unaweep has become my favorite pack for what I do. And I've used a few.. No charge for the rhyme.
Several Evolution and a couple Unaweep Pack products are in stock and deeply discounted. First come first serve, limited quantities on many of the pack bags.
Since this thread is older and dated, I started a newer thread . This thread has a wealth of knowledge and information, but yes it is dated and pretty lengthy Seek Outside Backpacks
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I just thought it WAS held there by the Talon and the load shelf.![[Linked Image]](http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/bigtroutphoto/media/2014/paradox2.jpg.html)
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