One of the members of our local American Legion was walking his dog past a church at 0600 hrs and three native American youths beat him and left him for dead.
This is making me rethink my J Frame as a CCW. Is 5 shots enough against three attackers?

I'll bet after the first one fell, the others would think better of their plan.

The problem is engaging the first one first. Multiple rounds are great, but having the situational awareness to avoid being incapacitated or incapable of firing even a first round is the most critical step.

In addition to a decent pistol, your friend needs a better dog.

These creatons need to learn not to phuchk with old white men, five shots are plenty for eliminating two of them on the spot and still be able to liver shoot the last one so he has time to ponder his last mistake.

This

Great in theory, Wild Bill....

Out of curiosity, what does the OP's idiot self-defense/shooting instructor have to say about this? SOB has been wrong consistently.

One really shouldn't have much trouble placing shots at arms length, I'm pretty good when I can place the muzzle on the target.

Having more rounds is never a bad thing!

No ones says that you can only carry one gun.

That depends on you. How good are you with your gun in stressful, dynamic situations involving moving people? What kind of shape are you in? How good are you in unarmed defense against multiple opponents? How fast do you run?

Again, great in theory, Wild Bill. Those assailants are just going to walk right up, where you can see them, not strike first, and then stand still whilst you shoot them from your fixed, upright position.

Sure...

At 0600 it was still dark. Perps hiding out in the shadow, attacking from behind, you're not likely to get the first lick in. If it was me, I'd likely be shooting from the fetal position on the ground, while taking some kicks.

I'm obviously making some assumptions.

I'm betting the blast and fireball from a snubbie would impress the perps, even if you don't hit any of them.

One should reasonably assume these individuals are under the influence of some sort of mind altering substances. Personally I wouldn't expect myself to be capable of making three CNS shots out of five on three independent targets after having been jumped.

You might not be able to choose where you are going to fight, but you damn well can be prepared on how to win that fight.

Oh, tell us all about it, Wild Bill!

Tell us how when you are jumped from behind at 0600 by three assailants how you are going to calmly place rounds in each of them at arms reach.

Or, conversely, how your godlike abilities to know the intentions and whereabouts of others will have you shooting them down so fast with your cat like reflexes before they can touch you that all three will be dead before they hit the ground in a blink of an eye and you won't have even had a hair misplaced.

Wild Bill has this covered.

Forget Chuck Norris! I want to be Wild Bill!

Every does...

This took place in a town of 1,800 people.
Normally people don't expect this [bleep] at 0600.
This time of year I can conceal a 1911 pretty easy.
I don't think I will do any walking on the street anymore.

Whelennut,
YOu guys need to arm yourselves and do a lot of walking.

Any further questions as to why schit like this happens?

And stop being retarded.

Since he's retarded.




Dave

Great movie, he could even change his screen name to Paul Kersey......

( I seem to remember him having a few legal problems during that movie....)

At 0600 in MN, this time of year, they probably would just want to warm themselves by that fire.....grin.



Times are changing. Might be wise to let the J-frame be a backup to a Glock 19, or similar.

my J frame retired some time ago, G43 is as easy to carry, plus one spare mag. Don't leave home without it.

Whelen,

Red, Leech Lake?

I just walked with the dogs right before evening tonight with only 4 shots in the belly of my 223AI.

I'm a risk taker.

Hey 4ager, instead of being critical teach him what you would do. You must be pretty smart about these kinds of things. Maybe you can educate the rest of us.

Try to keep my wits, pay attention to what is around me, and if jumped, manage the best I could. I damned sure wouldn't be saying that I could kill three in five shots under any circumstances; including liver shooting one so he could ponder his mistake...

Murphy's Law is a SOB, and there's no way of knowing what you WOULD do without knowing the situation and being in it.

Then again, I'm not Wild Bill...and there's no "teaching" him.

Criminals like those punks are cowards and always look for the easy target.

And an elderly man, walking his dog in the dark at 6:am, with probably no situational awareness, unfortunately was an easy victim. It's a damn shame, but that's the world we live in today.

The only answer nowadays is to train diligently with your weapon, be ready and willing to use it at any time, any where, and ALWAYS be aware of your surroundings and anyone you encounter. The life you save just may be yours!

Maybe somebody offers a training course for getting knocked on your ass and getting kicked in the head, maybe Massad Ayoob?
I guess the American Legion could form a posse?
I am just wondering how I would react.
It's cold here and I am bored.
whelennut

You're stacking the deck. He only had one dog....

If you maneuvered a bit, you could get all three with one shot.

Is that a serious question? If so, the answer is yes absolutely. I've attended a few, am going to another one at the end of this month about fighting up from the ground with your pistol. It also covers some of the legal aspects of such incidents. (It sure isn't Ayoob though, LOL!) If you're willing to travel for a few days and pay to learn, pm me for details.

As to your original post - there's a good reason some of us carry high cap autos like a G19 instead of what's convenient to fit in a pocket. Pay attention to the news, there are a lot of multiple assailants vs one attacker incidents lately.

That's about all you can do. Good chance the victim was short on the situational awareness part at 6:00 am in the dark. Situational awareness puts a gun in your hand BEFORE you NEED it. Too bad, Now the dog is without an owner.

Not really, especially in regards to the "manage the best I could" part. I don't know 4ager's ability so I'm not commenting about him, but I'd wager that most members of this forum would find their "best I could" to be quite a bit less in reality than in theory. You don't know until you at least practice this stuff (obviously training isn't reality either, but is a lot better than the couch.)

If you want to improve your chances in situations like the OP describes, learn to fight, not just rely on your gun and how many rounds are in the magazine.

The Little Bighorn again.

Get a Glock.

At the very least, this situation should become 2 on 1 in the first 3-7 seconds, after that your state of mind will be what deems whos going home or to the hospital.

I find this an interesting thread.. I live in a town of 1600+ or_.. No rez near by, but lots of folks I don't know or recognize.. I taught here, so I know most of the old timers.. We have a hot spring that draws all kinds of folks and plenty of bums.. I live not far from it.. Often walk by on my walks.. Now mostly late morning ..
Awareness is my key right now.. I don't take my dogs down there, but am carefully watching who is lurking around the area.. We get some real dirt bags loafing here, and of course the cops are busy eating doughnuts.. I have Glocks, 1911's and a host of big bores.. Sometimes I carry my 19 or my S & W m. 28 4".. But mostly my J in .357. I shoot it often, and several times when I didn't like the looks of someone or a small group, I quietly slid it into my jacket pocket..
But with this post, and cold weather, it will also be easy to take the 19 or 21 in addition..
Have never been in a shoot out, but have been in several confrontations with folks.. Mostly I had a big bore revolver ready or in a holstered position where it was obvious it would be used.. It either warned them or gave me confidence they lacked..
This is such a difficult question to deal with second hand.. We now have a large group of Spanish speaking men in town.. None have ever been a problem, but I am leery of what is being said that I don't understand..
I know the new autos are excellent.. But after shooting revolvers for 50 + years, I feel so at home with them..

M. Sagebrush, said the J is an excellent pocket pistol, I have to agree, but the 19 may have to find a way into my everyday walk..
This thread certainly has given me much to consider about my everyday walk.. Thanks all of you..

This was a good post. You should have stopped right there.

Some of you guys make me laugh.

Number one thing he should of had a gun.

Number two he should have been paying attention (this is really no. 1).

Number three he should have had a good flashlight.

Number four he should of had a dog that would at least bark at people.

I would almost bet money that if he would pointed a flashlight at these guys they would have went on their way.

Personally I try to never carry just a J frame but I guarantee you when that first round would have went off people would have scattered. Only the very dedicated or very impaired would have stuck around.

Dink

handguns are like hammers, all built with a different purpose in mind. Many years ago me and another guy had to face down and disarms a rather large group of armed bikers, that were not totally impressed. It did happen, but i was thinking belt fed machine gun.
I never felt nakkid with a six shot revolver, still don't really, but i live in the land of multiple assailants. And that is the reaons for a 19, a cz, name a bunch of others. I can get a lot of ammo in a glock or cz. It's one thing to talk about it, another to be faced with the reality of it when its dark and your heart is pumping.
My neighbor a few years back starting shooting at his front door at multiple assailants. he had a five shot revolver, they were shooting at him too. He had one or two rounds left when they broke off. I suggested maybe he should consider a little more firepower.

You will not get the fight you want. You will get the fight you get, and then have to deal with it.

Personally when discussing these things I try to remind people that "average" fights are in my experience a total fallacy.

Your opponents are not going to dictate the manner in which they attack you, based on what concealed carry gun you have under your jacket.

Plus, while I advocate J Frames for pocket carry, I sure as heck don't advocate them as a primary or sole handgun for most situations. It is exceedingly easy to pull a trigger 5 times just dealing with one threat, let alone multiples.

Additionally, while one of those 5 rounds may actually kill your attacker, it may take a while, and odds are pretty likely that you are not going to get much of an immediate reaction.

It may take 30 seconds or more for a visible reaction to be evident. That is a LONG time, and many things may change in that course of time. Most competent guys I know who carry a J Frame can empty one in well under 3 seconds.

In the first 30 seconds you may just find that the person you put a few rounds into has just stabbed you multiple times, you may have had a hand or arm receive significant trauma, and no longer be functioning properly, etc, etc.

Anybody ever practice one handed reloads of a J Frame? How about one handed reloads of a J frame when you are shaking, covered in liquid, and still have a situation that is dynamic/rapidly evolving.

These are all reasons why most knowledgeable folks with previous experience being involved in shootings carry high capacity semi autos.

Again, as it has been said before, consider that the reason to carry a high capacity semi auto is not to shoot more, but to manipulate less.

Instead of spending time reloading, you can use your hands to shield loved ones, open doors, block doors, get in a vehicle, or apply a tourniquet or other first aid/trauma care.

A good example is the crossroads mall attack, where the Muslim guy dressed as a security guard attacked and stabbed multiple people.

He was shot over and over and over. He got shot, fell down got up and attacked again and again. That is reality.

Watch here and think about if what you carry would be sufficient:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oRgKglQy0o


There are actually numerous self defense shooting videos where the defender shoots his attacker and there is very little if any visible reaction initially.

Those are with just one attacker. Add multiple attackers and the odds of calmly shooting 2 then giving a 3rd guy "one in the liver" while remaining upright and unscathed is in my opinion exceedingly unrealistic and wishful thinking.

Put away the ego and be prepared to deal with the very messy and less than optimal world of reality.

Additionally when dealing with people at contact distances, pretty much every time the fight goes to the ground. You really need to have some ground fighting skills, both with and without weapons. One should have the ability to shoot from the ground, as well as draw from the ground, in addition to knowing some weapon retention.


Frankly I think the very VAST majority of CCW folks and gun enthusiasts would be FAR better off to attend some ground fighting/shooting classes, rather than buy another pretty pistol that they can play "show and tell" with, both to their friends, and online buddies.

Force on force training with simunitions is a perfect example.

Learn how to manage unknown contacts, and deal with evolving situations. The reality is that even in training, it never goes as smooth as it does while envisioning how you would handle it. Watching a video of yourself and your performance during unknown contact management and simunitions training will very quickly reveal weak areas that can be addressed.



That was long winded, but if it encourages some critical thinking then maybe it was not a waste of time.

It wasn't wasted on me.

Mac, thanks, living in a small rural town it is tough to realize what the real world is like..

I see I must change my everyday carry guns.. And maybe take a class or so..

Awhile back I posted that I don't care about 50 yd accuracy.
This is the reason why. If somebody is close enough to hit you or kick you then why do you need a pistol that will shoot a 3" group at 50 yds?
I think target sights are only good for ripping my clothes when drawing the pistol.
As usual Mr Sagebrush has given us some valuable advice.
whelennut

No, your rationale then was FOS and it remains so. Just like your flawed understanding of self-defense laws and the idiot you refer to as an "instructor".

All great stuff in that post but especially this. You don't know what you don't know, and if you haven't had any training of this sort with a good instructor, you will have your eyes opened if you go seek out such training.

As a side note (with no desire to make this a "my training group is better than yours" thread), Mackay, who do you train with?

There is no reason you can't have the skill to hit something at 50 yards, while still having the skill to do the same up close and fast. That doesn't mean you should carry a competition gun for EDC, but your justification above seems more of an excuse not to stretch your skill level than anything else. Any decent carry pistol capable of eyeball accuracy across a room will also be capable of making good hits at 50 yards; the weak link is you, not the gun.

"A while back" was 14 months ago. Letting that post bury itself would have been a good option.

Dink pretty much nailed it. First off, I'm thinking your friend didn't have a gun. If he had and had the awareness and training to deploy it, my guess is they would have beat feet without hearing a shot fired. That said, there is really no excuse for carrying a little, low-cap gun like that in Minnesota in the winter, unless he just couldn't afford anything else. But in the end, this wasn't about not having enough capacity. As for you again, I'd not carry a low cap gun when I could conceal just about anything, unless I couldn't afford a high-cap.

Past couple of months I've spent a lot of time carrying both a pocket revolver and a Glock on the belt. Previously I mainly carried just a Glock OWB.

One really nice thing about the J-frame/LCR is you can carry them in a coat pocket. Walking in cool weather with hands in your pockets, there's nothing you could get to quicker or easier unless you're carrying it in your hand. An auto on the belt (not that you have to wear it there but I do) is going to be under a coat/sweater/etc and in a scuffle might be hard to get to, especially if you're wearing it behind your hip, you're on your back on the ground, and wearing a coat.

There's something to be said for being able to get the "little" gun into play quickly instead of taking a beating going for the belt gun.

It's not about "need". A good blaster will take care of business, but one that is accurate isn't ever a bad thing. Dink's flashlight comments should not go unheeded. You can get a damned good flashlight at Walmart that will really light things up with one AA battery, for under $30. I'd rather have that than extra capacity, if I had to choose between the two in the situation described. There are even better flashlight options available if you order off the internet and can get the Chinamen to actually deliver what they market.

A five or six shot rev is always balanced out nicely with a big knife on your off-side.

Almost without exception, in a situation like this unless the thug wannabes have a gun also, one hit to one of the attackers is all it takes to send the rest fleeing.

Maybe

..after that your state of mind will be what deems who's going to the hospital or to the morgue.

Always practice head shots. End of fight!!

So, a guy is ambushed where no one suspects it (kind of the definition of ambush) and it is of such ferocity (knocked on ass and kicked in head) that he wouldn't be able to respond anyway? and you are rethinking your pocket pistol?



clearly.

Really?

If you kill three people at 0600 AM, and all you have is an empty G19 when the cops show up, you better have some serious fugkin' lumps on your head.




Dave

.....

TFF AND true! A classic right there. Thanks for that one. Penske material for sure.

Edit: still laughing....

Good post.

My S&W 640 is the single most difficult handgun to shoot well. But it can be fired from your pocket, if necessary.

The subject of training can be an interesting one, as while there are truly excellent trainers, there are a BUNCH of really bad ones.

Looking at a trainer's credentials is important. Most people recognize the NRA name. I have been an NRA instructor for more than 20 years.

With that said, some of the absolute WORST instructors I have ever seen have been NRA instructors.

My observation in attending various NRA instructor courses like patrol rifle, tactical shooting instructor, etc, is that if you pay your money and show up, you pass.

I have observed guys who were not at all even competent with their issued weapon, and when asked they stated that they have little to no experience with the platform, but their agency sent them to the school. By the end of the week, they were now certified instructors.

It was the same in the civilian courses like the handgun/personal protection course. If you paid your money, by the end of the weekend you were now an instructor.


The interesting thing I noted was the serious lack of actual experience. The person attending the class had no actual gunfighting experience. No military or LE time. No one who had even heard a shot fired in anger.

The guy teaching others to be an instructor had no experience either.

So you ended up with an instructor with no experience, who was taught by someone else with no experience, etc, etc. They were all working off of "theories".

So, the punchline is that if their sole claim to fame is that they are NRA certified, look elsewhere.

Military backgrounds; There have been literally hundreds of thousands of guys and gals that went to the Middle East on deployments.

A BUNCH of those guys came back and started teaching. What they never mention is that better than 90% of them don't actually have any time actually fighting the enemy.

They stayed on giant bases that were far safer than most US cities, and if they were lucky, they might have gotten to go on a convoy or 2. That is it.

Again, the very vast majority never actually saw an enemy combatant, or even heard a shot fired in anger.

Commanders get bad evals when they have guys killed or injured. Most were required to do X amount of missions, so they would tailor the missions to avoid any contact at all with the enemy, or go into sketchy areas. They would then gloss up their reports to sound good, to ensure they made Major, LTC, etc.


LOTS and LOTS of "missions" were run that put guys out in the middle of nowhere, drop off some flats of water to some poor farmers, then return to base, and call it a successful combat operation.

With all that said, if looking at an instructor with military experience, I would at the very least want a guy who was in the SF, or Rangers,MARSOC etc. That is the side of the military that actually goes out and actively hunts bad guys, and results in guys with experience using weapons in conflict.



To answer your question about who I train with; Most of my training has been getting ready to go do something, somewhere, and the trainers have been "in house". They are for the most part well respected guys, with lots of time in conflict, but rarely teach a civilian class, due to being busy doing what they do.

That said, a few people who I can wholeheartedly recommend, that teach classes to cops, civilians, military, etc are:

John Shaw
Ken Hackathorn
Clint Smith

Organizations like Triple Canopy (TC) may sometimes provide classes to civilians/cops. They have mobile training teams and can teach everything from firearms related courses, to ground fighting, to very advanced driving courses, oriented toward countering ambushes, and high threat protection.

TC's core cadre/chain of command are mostly former Delta guys, other SF guys, or guys who have been trained and vetted by the same.



There is an east coast outfit that I have not trained with, but know some high speed types who have, and say good things about them.

The Range Complex out in Fayetteville, NC. The instructors and owner are former, Delta guys. You are going to be hard pressed to find more experienced guys.


If you are out west, John Shaw's range is phenomenal, it is not like anything most have ever trained on, with auto resetting targets, 360 degree shooting, and serious trigger time. Shaw has been affiliated with the special operations community for decades, and between the Idaho facility and Mid South, down in Lake Cormorant, MS has seen many MILLIONS of rounds downrange.

Full disclosure: On a very limited basis I teach some things for Shaw, though that is subject to both of our schedules, and his needs.

shoot one the other two chitheads will be [bleep] shots

I just wanted to comment on this;

While I do advocate carrying a high capacity semi auto for many reasons, equipment is generally secondary. If a person is at a level of unconscious competence with a revolver, and is extremely proficient with it, versus a modern hi cap semi auto, then the revolver may be their best bet.

It has a bunch of drawbacks, but until a person is intimately familiar with their semi auto, with a good amount of trigger/training time, it may be best to roll with what you know, and carry your K or N frame .38/357, 44 special, 45 colt or whatever.

There is simply not a "one size fits all" and being dogmatic about certain things does not lend to learning new skill sets.

If you don't like it don't read it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCq7VwIj5TU Mack your video only shows the attack in the electronics store. This link shows the 6 shots fired by the off duty cop that it took to put the attacker on the ground. That is one more round than a j frame has.

This wasn't a good week to be retarded.

It's amazing that you still have room for your gigantic cock.

Mac, thanks for your insight. This has been among the most informative posts I've seen on the 'Fire. Unfortunately, much of what I've learned is that I'm not ready for a sudden attack irrespective of how well I shoot. Time for some realistic training.

How about one armed bad guy against two police.



Think about this deal for someone not wearing armor.

that was in chandler. On my side of the valley, n.w. side, there were three armed robberies car jackings at three separate walmarts i think on the same day. Few years ago, a retiree from sun city opened up if i remember right with ar 15 at another walmart. There are cameras all over the place, inside, parking lots etc. I have a habit any more of dropping my wife off at the door, and parking right in front to eye the door. How do i say this politely, lots of ethnic minority participation. The one near my house you see gang members etc. My wife and i both at different times spotted hookers working in the parking lot. But thats nothing, try in front of the grocery store. I get my medications at a safeway pharmacy, it got hit three times last year for drugs.

they use to show a video in cop training of an incident with a southern highway patrol officer. He stopped some 400pound pile of blubber, it escalated, he shot the guy multiple times with a .357magnum, didn't kill the guy, the guy killed him knicking a artery in his neck if i remember right with a .25acp.
The magnum rounds didn't get past the blubber into the cns.

Oh, just liver shoot the SOB and let him think about it for a while...

i betcha i know something about MacKay. He probably lives with situational awareness, and threat preparation and assessement.
I also would put money on the table in a restaurant probably doesn't sit where he can't see the entrance and have his back to the wall.
Watch him prove me wrong.

Yes, absolutely! Some are comically bad, like the video you posted, while others may sound good to the uninformed without really knowing what they're doing.

Thanks for the good info.

Safe bet.

It is unusual for thugs to be up at 6:00am. Wonder if they specifically were after this guy, and knew his routine?

I like friendly small dogs, but sometimes a bark isn't enough...

Easy for thugs to be up at 6AM if they're on a meth binge, they won't sleep for days.

Fugg em WN, go walk, we all need it to live longer and keep our strength up, stick a Glock 19 and spare mag in your pocket and enjoy life.

I don't think it can be over empisized how much simply shooting your carry gun as often as possible will prepare you for a surprise attack.

I am going to talk to this guy at the next American Legion meeting and get the full story, if he will talk.
I have a 4" Model 66 that I can conceal easily in this weather.
Somebody told me it's better not to leave brass with your fingerprints laying all over the ground. Take that for what it's worth. That is one reason why I don't carry a Glock.
whelennut

There is a meth epidemic in this area for sure.

10-4, load your mags with gloves, after you've bought a spare slide, barrel and mags.

Not making light of your situation, just having fun, I wont be driven in by thugs the gov or anything else.

I made the same decision a year and a half ago on pondering the implications of the trend going on of "urban youth" mob violence against whites. I switched from a K-Frame S&W revolver to a Glock 17. Eighteen rounds on tap vs 6. Stick a 33 round mag in your front pants pocket and you up the available round count massively.

Where do you find these jewels of wisdom?

Have you ever considered cleaning the brass and wearing a pair of these while loading the magazine?

stop talking to that person

Load your front pocket with a 33 round stick mag may cause chickens to start following you home!

Then again, if you're involved in a shooting, do you really want the police to find that the brass from your gun was wiped clean? Might not you look like you were planning to go out and shoot someone, hence why your brass was wiped clean?

I wear my gun outside my pants for all the honest world to feel.

The 33 rounder generally stays in the night stand drawer. It's a rare recourse, but nice to have available to stick in your pocket if you perceive a higher threat level than usual.

I'm sorry, but that's one of the dumbest things I've heard in a while. If you're protecting your life (or another person's) and your not doing anything illegal (i.e. you're justified), why would you be concerned about having your fingerprints on the brass?

If you were a hitman I could see where you wouldn't want to leave evidence behind. My word that's stupid.

Sweet Bowie, Mark.

That sounds like something out of the 1960s. Did they also tell you to drag the guy into your house if you shoot a home invader and he falls outside?

Of course, if you truly believe what you wrote, you probably should not have written it for public consumption.

P.S. Do you carry a cell phone when you are out and about?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

not quite as stupid as it sounds. (And yes, it does sound stupid) but as almost all of my in-laws are cops, i hear a few stories.
Your brass COULD end up at another crime scene, if somebody was being cute or trying to lay a false scent. ( any brass Found at a shooting will be examined, we know this) so, if the brass says they're looking for a .45 auto and all you've got is a .38 revolver, until the bullets are dug out, the cops might be looking for the wrong gun type .

I know for a fact that during deer-gun season 1 22 caliber shell in my truck, or on my person, WILL get me in deep crap, If found by an officer. or if the TSA find it in a cuff of your pants while you're trying to board a flight.
so it makes good sense to keep track of your brass.

Probably that idiot "instructor" of yours.

Holy balls.

Your sporting wiffle balls? Seems kind of drafty, but to each his own, I guess.
are you trying to cut down on weight? Or do you just like the way they whistle when you go fast?

Thank you TRH.

Bring a sand-filled rubber hose - he will talk.

If you get sandbagged like that you are basically [bleep] unless you are a super hero. At an younger age I would go just about anywhere anytime. I am much more cautious and practical these days and I am still pretty "quick" on presentation and in the accuracy department. But, I can not run and would be easy to knock down. As luck would have it am still fairly alert to my surroundings though.

Don't count on it, the mob instinct is strong.

Mac, I have been and NRA RSO and pistol instructor for 45 years, I only teach CCW classes anymore but MY students will be SAFE and ACCURATE before I will give them the certificate. I strongly suggest they get some tactical training from a RECOGNIZED school.

So many of the idiots that have the NRA pistol instructor card only require a student to safely load and fire ONE shot, makes me sick to my stomach.

[video:google]https://www.google.com/search?q=gatling+gun&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#imgrc=a02yJGyRIKmUUM%3A[/video]


All this talk about ingins on the war path, got me to thinking about this.

I ain't NEAR that paranoid, if I shoot it will be righteous or I won't have a gun in my hand.

Yep.

And his "expertise" came from 60's and 70's TV, movies and pulp.

LMAO.

You're a sick fugk.




Dave

I'm still very much pro J-frame, LCR, or even the LCP.

Yeah but you completely missed 2,3,4,6,7,9,10.

Is that a challenge?




Travis

This is how we gets it done, downtown.

These perps don't have Fetal Alcohol Syndrome.

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

That said, I am 100% a regular guy and sometimes lose situational awareness like everyone else. Skinny redheads in close proximity are like kryptonite for me!

A platoon of ISIS sponsored, self propelled pop up targets could stroll right by, and I would be absorbed with watching the redhead chick..









That said it is funny you mentioned seating. I am in Salmon Idaho and was reading campfire stuff on my phone and saw your post. It made me chuckle, as I had just sat down, and was waiting on my food.

I was seated so I could see both exit/entrances, and did not have anybody behind me.






That said, NOBODY is switched on all the time. Everybody gets engrossed with things while out in public and don't pay as much attention as they should. That is normal.

The flip side of that is that there are people that are 100% clueless 99+% of the time, and don't see things happening right in front of them.

I frequently see handoffs and drug deals in the parking lot of the grocery store, while people walk right past.

In fact in the past, while working with other detectives, we have done dope deals and takedowns in public places and have people stroll right by. They are totally clueless, zoned into their phones, or other things.

I have had people walk right by us, with a couple of us holding handguns in our hands,and have some thug in handcuffs, and people still don't even notice until a marked car arrives.

That is simply the world we live in.

That was Trooper Mark Coates. He was killed by a smuggler with a .22 to the heart, via an armpit. If I recall right his vest stopped another or previous bullet. He shot the bad guy 5 (?) times in the chest with a .357. The guy recovered fully.

Since cell phones it's gotten worse.

A slim redhead will capture my attention every time

This one's not too skinny for me.

Hell, I will not walk into a convenience store/gas station unless I visibly see the clerk, doing happy clerk sheit.

I have NO doubt I could put a 20' long by 10' deep ditch in front of the grocery store and catch 3/4 of the people walking in.

Women are truly the worse by a biggly margin.

Yes, the very reason were not still fighting wars with single shot Springfield 73's.

This just happened, I arrived at my Moms place early on Thanksgiving eve, was on the phone with them before they got there, Mom and Sis were trying to give me alarm codes and such so I could go on in.

I said no, I'll just wait on you guys, I walked out to the mailbox and got the mail, proceeded the lay down on the end of the porch on my back [was a warm day] with the mail out in my left hand, I heard them pull up, they walked right by me [I didn't move], unlocked the door and went in, I had to lay there and wait.

After a few minutes they both came back out of the house talking to each other wondering where I was, [I had not been 15' away the whole time].

I then, still on my back with a handful of mail, tilted my head back and said hello to them, ho lee chit, most women live in a special place.

More Ammo than needed hurts nothing, less than needed is a huge problem.

Excellent info too, your weapon needs to be as reflex usable as a closed fist, shoot the hell out of your weak side and eye too if you have one.

3 spare 15 rounders riding in my back pocket wont even disturb a fresh can of Cope!

Agreed. I make it a point to shoot three ways at the range, with equal round count, i.e., 1) Both hands with isosceles method, 2) strong hand only, and 3) weak hand only. Since starting this, my weak-hand and strong-hand-only ability has increased tremendously.

To busy on their (Smart)ha phones.

You knock the lid off that cope you will be cleaning mags the rest of the day. lol

Doing things the hard way makes easy lightning ;]

Damn right J2, and if working and sweating it'd probably look like i crapped my pants too. lol

Sagebrush, I think I have been in that place in Salmon. That is a cool town, but saw some really strange folks there!!!

Mac:
back in think in the 70's the sambo's chain was still around, and we had one in prescott. It was also a place for free coffee for popo's.
which meant everyone around there would frequent. One night couple guys in uniform where drinking some coffee backs to the entrance. A guy walks in pizzed at his wife and ready to take her out. But there is the guy in uniform. So the guy shoots the cop in the back of the head before he shoots the wife. I never never forgot that. It's kind of a joke in the family now. not the shooting, but me in the sitting arrangements.
I don't know if people still do it or not, but something else i never forgot. Often in a thinly populated county at the time, you would be parked somewhere at night. Everyone was carrying revolvers at the time.
I was left handed which meant it was also kind of awkward to draw from behind a steering wheel. So the revovler would be taken out of the holster and laid on the seat while parked, with rear vew mirrors adjusted to see behind you. Situational awareness.

Around that time i was parked one night at a lake with my now wife of over 40years watching the submarine races. A car pulled up behind us with hi beams on and a command "get out of the car." A few days before i had been threatened by a drug addict for repo'ing his car. So i did, with a revover in hand as i rolled out of the car. I barely could see the deputy's badge through the lights. Had him caught cold turkey.
He didn't know what to do, and neither did I. So I laid the gun on the ground and explained. He understood. He also understood he didn't have his lights on, and didn't identify himself. Later on when i got certified, we worked a lot of shifts together and were friends. But i bet he never did that again.
Things have changed a lot, but some things don't. Even in the 70's we had a drill called a "mexican quail shoot." Wouldn't hear that today. But it was to train/counter multiple problems exiting a car at the same time, and figuring out which one to shoot first dependent on threat level.
Hi cap guns are just a natural given in that situation. I think of that a lot when watching BLM protestors in major cities today.

another thing that changed me. back in the same time period one night i flew into lax late at night, wife with me, and rented a car. I was turned around and not knowing it till later I ended up I think in watts. Driving down a road in a run down area i see a barricade of trash cans blocking the street i was on. I didn't stop but just ran the car through them.
I don't think the cans were there to collect pocket change.
I didn't have a gun on me at the time, but that was in the period of six shot revolvers. Even then, as much as i like them still to this day, 18 or 19 or20 rounds out of a glock/cz/you name it still gives me a comfort factor.

Hell I'm not an operator and I typically sit where I can see the exits. I also try to sit near the kitchen, because trouble doesn't usually come from that direction.

Now, lest you think I've got my chit together, I often sit in my bus or escalade waiting on clients, reading. I'd be cold meat if someone wanted me.

And if a smoking hot woman walks into that restaurant, forget it!

I try to sit and watch the door too, as well as away from loud children, women have never been a distraction, I have more than I can handle, and much more than I deserve at home, and being married to a marathon running fitness woman, I stay hammered down enough to not want a damn thing I see out in public.

I, for one am a firm believer in firepower. More is better less is no good. When I purchased my semi-auto's my first criteria was how many rounds the thing held. With the double stack mag's now days it's easy to find a .380 or 9MM semi-auto that holds more than 7 rounds. My S&W SD9 VE holds 16 in the mag, but it's a little large for CCW. My SCCY 9MM CPX holds 10 in the mag and is small enough to put in a jacket pocket. Why be undermanned?

Twat has been the bane of men since time began.
I don't live in the ghetto, but times have changed. That safeway store with the pharmacy robbed multiple times is near my house. About a year ago a 8month pregnant woman walking out of the store had a gun stuck up to her belly by a guy wanting to do a carjacking. My wife had just gotten into her car at a different time at that store, doors automatically locked. Guy starts pounding on the window you have a flat tire. 1. wasn't true, 2. he had no idea that 78year old gramma was packing.
What WE have started doing is i drop her off at the front of the store and watch her enter. Pick her up the same way.
I sit in the car and watch the entrance, as close as i can get. But i am going to change some things. Lately i started carrying a colt cobra again, but limited in rounds. I am going to start taking with us a hi cap something for when i am waiting in the car. It is an issue. One of the current things is Younger people cruising the parking lots on skateboards, bicycles. Finding say an older couple loading good stuff into a suv, they signal their buddies in a van which rolls up to make the hit.
You have to have multiple issues as a juvvie, to get locked up for any amount of time, so the birddog isn't risking much.
with woman, they will leave at a gas pump purse on the seat, and proceed to pump gas. perfect time for a snatch and grab. The meth freaks around a restaurant or other high traffic area will spot a target and be on you real quick.
I have had that happen multiple times. We live near a major freeway, the black canyon, the underpasses/drainage canals had people housekeeping in them, until we got the city to grate them. Not uncommon to find needles, drug stuff, used condoms etc in the street or parking lots. Awareness is a huge thing. My daughter won't get out of the car at a gas station and keeps her doors locked until she surveys the area. She has had men reach through a partially open window at same. Women are particularly bad with cellphones in their ear all the time, driving, getting gas, you name it.
With the drug availability, the problem is just getting worse. My understanding is that around prescott, meth has slid to second place, black tar heroin is cheaper. Thank you mexico.

i am rattling around too much i know. But i think rjm mentioned running around the desert with a assault something.
You never know in arizona given the narco's running around that desert.
I have come across numerous stash spots, they like bud lite,
and come over a hill to spot 20 or 30 illegals doing a vehicle transfer or something else.
Few years ago i was going out on a early sunday morning to do some shooting, about a mile off a major freeway, and spot three hi end expensive trucks, and six or so mexicans standing around all sporting those chrome no reflection sunglasses. No atv's, no rec. stuff, just waiting. Interesting feeling.

I live in a small town, nothing like the crime of big cities. I am 6'2, 245 run 3 miles 2to3 times a week, and lift. I still do not go to the door after dark without a pistol tucked into my waistband. To many home invasions of more then one methhead, once the door is unlocked they bum rush. To many in my area have been left for dead or dead.

I got blasted by a cadre of the "popular girls" here at the fire for stating precisely that a few years ago. It was twisted into my being afraid of girl scouts selling cookies.

one of my houses is in a relative small town, prescott. we are walking distance to a local park, where the tweakers, etc like to hand out. In warmer months it is a trip to sit on the front porch and watch them trying to walk up the street, arms a shaking, talking to God. That park has been the scene of several homicides etc. Evil is present in a lot of communities today, regardless of size. That bum rush was done on my neighbor in phx a few years ago, they were armed. he had a five shot rossi, and was down to one or two rounds. He went in and called the cops, while he was on the phone they came back and got their car in front of his house. We had a long discussion the next day about firepower. I have another neighbor who will remain nameless by description. he walks the neighborhood all hours of the night with a very well trained K9 and a smith semiauto. The werewolves come out in the dark, and the stories he tells and stuff he finds are something. Couple of weeks ago it was a small altoid box with the remains of meth and black tar heroin tossed in the bushes.

I realize it's a personal decision, but, when my wife needs a wingman to go to the grocery store, we'll probably be moving. Already BTDT for our child when he was tiny.

No matter what else I may be carrying or not, I have gone to almost always carrying a 442 in a jacket pocket or my front pants pocket & many times as I am walking about, my hand is already on the gun.

Getting jumped by surprise is a difficult situation no matter how you cut it, & in the winter, with a coat on & a holstered gun under a sweatshirt as well as the coat, unless you have sufficient time to get ready, it's hard to get to that gun as fast as you may need it.

Having the pocket gun may give you enough time to get to your primary weapon.

With crime rates going up & druggies coming out of the woodwork, one had better have one's wits about them at all times.

Of course, if you're Superman, Batman, Jack Reacher or Wild Bill none of this applies to you.

MM

This whole story is a hoax. Ain't no indian will be up and about at 0600.

Oh yeah, they just be going to bed. Lol

I heard on the radio that in 2016 300 people were shot in North Minneapolis. Mostly black gang members shooting rival gang members.

LOL, I'm the same height and 10 lbs heavier than J2dogs but dont run or workout, and will NOT answer the door after dark, I don't have the time or inclination for that much potential paper work.

I watch them, but don't open the door, If it's someone that knows me they can call, if it's someone up to no good, I'll make the calls for them shortly after.

I lived on the South side of Chicago when I was a kid. During World War 2. Hardly any drive-by's and you could walk the streets in any neighborhood at night and not worry. Now, there are about a dozen or so shootings every week-end. I think the year end figure is around 600. That's only Chicago. Now, that I'm over 80, I would not think of running around there unarmed. I can't run fast anymore. I'm not afraid to get shot at. Had that done to me in Korea in the Corps. But what I do like is to be able to shoot back. As a result of this mentality, I like to have firepower. Simple as that.

No waste of time at all.

I live about 1.5 hrs from the Crossroads Mall in St. Cloud where the knife wielding Muslim was stabbing people.
I have thought long and hard about my ccw choice ever since that happened.
I think that if I do buy a Glock it would be a 10mm or 45 acp.
I am not working for a government agency that dictates what or how I choose to carry.
(Thank God)
Being a civilian is nice.

Good luck concealing a G20/29 or 21/30. The G36 is pretty easy to carry, but you just negated the high capacity advantage.

There are a lot of reasons the G19 is so damned highly recommended. If you had a clue, you'd understand that.

What gun do you carry when you run?




Dave

I believe how a man carries himself is an important part of these assaults, it takes a desperate idiot to attack a man that has confidence and stature to defend them selves.

Just like how the thugs where dark hoodies and slime around in the shadows, a man dressed in jeans, Carharts and walking in well lit areas has very little chance of being targeted, if you have your hands in your coat pockets there is a good chance there could be a gun in it.

In Minnesota, in winter? Lol...

Lima Charlie

It's winter there all the time?

It is right now, isn't it? You sure are a knowitall, for an office jockey.

Just looked at my G19 & G21.. The size is nearly the same.. The 21 a bit wider and longer.. But the 21 feels larger in my hand.. While the 19 has more ammo, the .45 should have more knockdown given equal bullets.. I know the 9 has been greatly improved with the new bullets, but hasn't the .45 also been improved?? My reason for this q. is a video I watch the other day..

I have no experience in real self defense.. But the other day I was watching a video on Hornady's site.. It show a real shootout between a cop and bad guy.. The cop was killed and the bad guy survived despite being hit solidly with a .40.. I want to go back and look at it again (it is rather long), but while watching it I wondered if highway patrolmen have AR's in their vehicles.. After the shooting started, it appeared the patrolman went to his vehicle.. Had he had an AR it would have been much to his advantage to grab it.. According to the video, the killer ran up the the officer and shot him though the side window.. The officer froze and did not replace the empty magazine with a new one.. Gave me a lot to think about as did this entire thread..

Hey Dave, a Kahr PM9 with pinky clip and an extra 6 round clip, I load it with Speer 124gr. GD +P

That's the holster you use when running?




Dave

,

Yeah, it is a little sweat stained. It is a Galco IWB, that I added a piece of leather to. The leather that came with it was kinda rough.

OK, which one of y'all is going to jump on the clip reference here?

Did I use improper terminology? Should have said mag

You charge a magazine with a clip, but he was being funny.

Yeah and a Ford Ranger is nearly the same size as an F150.

If you actually carried both of those you'd realize there's a significant difference between them. I can and do conceal either of those, but there's no denying the G19 is a lot easier.

If you think a Ranger and F150 are nearly the same size your more screwed up than I thought!

Try Googling the word "facetious".

After reading your first post in this thread I decided I ought to try carrying my Smith in 40 cal instead of my normally carried Titantium Tracker in 41 mag. But this post reminded me of the time I was considering whether to pull a pistol on a couple of drunks who were threatening me. All I had available was a 1911 size Smith in 9mm. It had just been given to me by my FIL and I had only shot a couple magazines thru it. I remembered it had a safety and a de cocker, but couldn't remember the location of them.

I elected not to employ it and got banged up pretty good in the ensuing brawl. My 686 357 mag was back in my motel room and there is no doubt In my mind I would have pulled it if it had been available. I would have been justified under the circumstances but I'm probably better off that I didn't have it.

I carry the Tracker constantly and shoot it a lot with my reduced loads..... 215 cast at 1050 fps. Arthritis in my right hand makes full power loads too uncomfortable but when I finish practice I load it with factory rounds for everyday carry.

Thanks for the info from one who knows what he is talking about and after digesting it all, I guess I'll stick with the Taurus for carrying.

The Ti Tracker in .41 is a damned fine revolver. I know three fellas that have one each, all use them for chasing bears, and NONE of them will part with the Tracker. Surprisingly accurate things, too.

Paladin was hitting a sixteen inch rectangle at 160 yards with mine with regularity at Armijo Springs a couple three years ago.

I turned down his bid to buy it but have willed it to him.

One thing that didn't come out in this thread is what people wear in the northern cold climates. Carrying a 5 shooter not only puts you at a disadvantage with the number of rounds, but the 38 special, is slightly better than a 380 and the people that carry mouse guns can get in a bind. Many folks in the northern cold climates are wearing Carhart, actic lined coats which though penetrable, slows things down a might. I've hard of bullets not penetrating people well, after penetrating the coat.

And hollow points acting like FMJ when filled with thick clothing at times.

If I am wearing my winter clothes I can easily conceal a 1911 or an N frame.
The cold weather tends to keep people inside and then we hear more about home invasions.
12 gauge is the weapon of choice for repelling boarders.

According to at least one dumbphuck, it's not winter in Minnesota right now.

WOW!


Dave

Sure it's winter there right now. It's not winter there all the time.

"Office jockey"? Meh, I spend more time in one than I want to. Reckon I ain't alone on that count.

Anyone that actually said that would certainly be a dumbphuck.

It's not Winter here in Northern Wisconsin all the time either. We have Almost Winter, Winter, Snowy Winter and Freezing Winter. That entails about half the year. Don't ask me why I stay here. I must be a Masochist. But at least I can hide my gun most of the year.

"50 weeks of winter..............and 2 weeks of poor sledding."

paladin is one interesting feller for a variety of reasons. I have some slightly, well more than slightly bent, quarters in my desk drawer. The end result of paladin throwing them in the air and hitting them with a .22lr revolver. He is skilled. Strange, he packs a .45acp too much of a dinosaur i guess to run with the 9mm.
One of my fond memories is this young woman firing his double barrel rifle in .470 nitro(?). The recoil would throw her back on one foot.
Pretty interesting to see him wack stuff way out there with a .45acp too.

19 below zero forecast for Thursday am.
Try oiling your semi auto and leaving it outside overnight in your vehicle. I am betting it will be sluggish.
The main reason I prefer revolver, although looking in a snowbank for 9mm brass would not be high on my list for having a good time.
whelennut

Try bringing your pistol inside where you spend the night and it's less likely to be stolen.

It's not like you live in a no crime area.

Why the Hell you would be looking in a snowbank for 9mm brass in/after a defensive situation also makes no sense.

I have five autos in my truck right now and I can assure everyone they won't run sluggish.

We've been well under zero for a number of days now.





Dave

That's because you might have a clue.

Spray them down with WD40 and you're ready for a Wisconsin winter.

He's racing to the #1 moron slot pretty quickly.




Dave

Where did you get the idea that I shoot 9mm?

GFY

Either your reading comprehension sucks, or you are truly one stupid SOB - or both. Pay attention to the parts in bold.

This was an informative thread early on. Thanks MackayS for your thoughts.

I'm not well trained like many here but try to be very alert to my surroundings, even more when out with my wife. I like to watch the doors and all that, it just seems right and natural to do. Even though she carries I sometimes feel really apprehensive when out with her, that she's mine and no one else's to protect. I value her life over mine. Truly. Not heroic just simple fact.

I carry a Kimber Solo in my pocket and normally have a hand on it when out and about, in places like gas stations or convenience stores, etc.. I am careful with her at public restrooms, making sure she's not alone in there with a bad guy(s). There's times I won't go someplace if I'm not comfortable with her being there. I can't think of a place like that that there isn't another one down the street that may be safer. Why take any unnecessary risk? Having said that, one of our favorite breakfast restaurants is an Elmer's just off the interstate. We get a lot of homeless, meth, heroin, you name it, in that area from the interstate and Walmart a block away. I sit against the wall and watch the door. I hate that it is what it is, but that's the world is going.

I appreciate the food for thought from this thread. It seems like speed of deployment is a huge issue I need to consider thoroughly. These things happen so fast. It also seems like the most time to be gained is by being aware of your surroundings. Seems to be the one thing we can do that can give you the time you need to respond to a deadly threat.

On the NRA/military trainers MS brought up- we took a (ONE) class from an ex-military special forces/judo instructor/NRA certified instructor. What a disaster. I won't go into detail, but what a mess. If we had money and time to travel, I'd go see Clint Smith. Maybe it should be a priority. Thanks again for all the great advice.

Was the instructor truly former Special Forces?

Yes he was. We know the family he married into.

Well darn, SF guys are usually pretty good with instruction because, well, that's a lot of their "business" as SF in the military.

Lots of families believe the BS their son in laws spray...





Dave

I've got an uncle like that. We don't believe him, but he's a good source of entertainment during the holidays.

Is it just me, or are CHL holders less likely to be the targets of these things in the first place?

May be a general situational awareness thing.

There's a lot to be said for the simplicity and reliability of a j-frame. For example if I was on the ground and getting stomped and I was reaching for my handgun a j-frame will cycle even in a coat pocket. For on-the-ground-and-stomped drills, a j-frame would be my first choice.

JMHO,
Birdwatcher

I had a 10mm Glock, traded it off recently.

When you go to stores that sell ammo, count the amount and variety of .45acp rounds on the shelves, then go look if there's any 10mm available.

If there is 10mm on the shelves, take a moment to be surprised, then go compare prices

Of course if you usually reload or mail-order your ammo this might not be a concern, but it was for me.

Birdwatcher

The Glock 20 will handle .40 S&W as well as 10mm. Not strictly necessary, but I have a dedicated .40 S&W barrel for mine.

To be concerned about the caliber of your gun when you look at ammo prices is sort of ludicrous. You pay $300-$600 for your gun and worry about $10 bucks extra for a box of 50 rounds. Almost like the guy who buys a Truck with 4 wheel drive and the biggest V-8 he can get then complains about his gas mileage. I am not wealthy, but the last thing I look at is the price on a box of bullets. If you are CC person, one box should do. If you are a target or plinking person, buy a rimfire and get cheap bullets.

Or get a Glock in 9mm for the range, and carry the 20. A Glock, of roughly the same barrel and grip length, is essentially a Glock. Get good with your 17 and you will be comfortable enough come the day you need to draw your 20, if you want a 20 for concealed carry.

Ridiculous!

One should practice with his carry weapon.

I found a good deal on 10mm ammo (bulk) and then bought the gun.

My thinking is you should run at least 500 rounds through a CC gun to make sure it's reliable enough to carry. And then comes practice.

And it's not just price, it's availability. If anything positive has come out of the past 8 years its the realization you can't expect to buy a box of ammo or reloading components anytime you want.

pal, No one would dispute that. But to be concerned about a few bucks for ammo is not ridiculous, it's ludicrous. How much is your life worth?

Some people are so cost conscious that they keep looking at gas pump prices, trying to get the best price for a penny or two a gallon, until they run out of gas. Find the gun that suits your needs and worry about a buck or two of ammo later.

What's the price difference in 1000 rounds of 10mm vs 1000 rounds of 9mm for practice?

Per Midwayusa -

1k rounds CCI Blazer 200 TMJ 10mm: $589.99
1k rounds CCI Blazer FMJ (115, 124, or 147): $239.99-244.99

About 100 bucks.

But if you want to train with what you shoot it gets very expensive very quick. And if a guy runs a box of 20 XTP's or whatever through his carry gun, and thinks it's good to go, he's making a big mistake.

And not to beat up on the 10mm, but there is a very good chance that guys are shooting overpriced 40's in their 10mm if they are buying factory ammo.




Dave

There's a reason I wouldn't want to be a 'thing' with the Bumblebee in my hands.

I was being a smart azz with the question. Point was to shoot more for less cost. I was thinking it would be a 2 to 1 cost difference.

Yes, 10mm is just a hair more on pop but a fair bit more on $. I probably run 50 .40's through my 10mm's for every 10mm round.

bingo, when i first got my glock i got in two boxes of remington factory which was running at same speed as .40s&w. I reload so that was rectified.
as to a glock and 10mm, one could for what, about 150bucks by a 40 barrel which would work perfectly fine in it?
I stuck my baby glock back in the fanny pack, it's labeled .357sig on the side of the frame. Today it's a .40s&w, somedays its a 9mm.
Not a difficult thing. the orignal gun comes with something like 8 or nine rounds. I have 13rounders with it.

I got that 10mm Glock 29 for two reasons: One was the sheer fun quotient at the range of that many cumulative ft pounds in that size gun (Buffalo Bore 200gr solids was my carry ammo ).

The other reason was that one wet spring I got tired of walking right up on feral hogs in tall thick weeds while doing bird surveys, including sows nursing piglets, and especially that one time a really big boar hog was standing maybe 20 yards out and huffing at me despite my yelling and waving. (Hey, some guys worry about snakes, I get to worry about feral hogs). So I wanted something concealable that would best knock down inbound hogs.

Then this past fall I needed really good binocs, and Swift Audubon 8.4x44 porros at $500 are the cheapest way to get there. So goodbye Glock. I was getting frustrated with it anyway, ammo was scarce and like a dollar a round when I did find it, especially the 200 grain solids I was wanting to practice with.

I got no quarrel with the 10, and more power to those who favor it. But I'm pretty sure the various 9mm loads can meet my needs, even w/hogs. Criminals in the desert ain't likely around here, and even if they were, I'd be far from helpless with a 9.

Just recently the local Academy was having a sale; 50 rounds of 147g 9mm ball at $12 for 50. If I was buying 20 boxes (if they would sell me that many) that works out to 1K rounds for $240, over the counter.

IME,
Birdwatcher

Why in the hell would you dig in a snowbank for 9mm brass any time?

How many rounds do you fire in a year?

This part is the important part: Mattisism -- “be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet" --

Are you saying that oil on a revolver is not affected by temperature?

Remlube. Worked on my autos when I lived in ND. I used it on the Glock, Berretta A390 and BAR. No worries.

This.^

I had a chance to speak with the gentleman who was beaten by three men.
He was a veteran of the US Army and spent 20 years in the National Guard.
He told me that he was approached by a man who asked him for a cigarette while he was walking his dog at 0600 hrs.

He remembers nothing that happened afterwards.
He crawled home on the brink of death.

In my opinion situational awareness would have been a more important tool than any kind of handgun.
YMMV
whelennut

I guess cigarettes really are bad for your health.





Clark

Only if the extra time provided by the awareness allows you to avoid them entirely or to be ready to beat them all up. Otherwise, you still are going to need some help to even the odds.

Being an old white man isn't all its cracked up to be either.

He needs a rougher, tougher, more serious type of dog. I have a dog that's fifty pounds of real deal, and would tear anyone apart who attacked me. My other dog, not so much, but he's young yet. Not even a year old. He may never be the real deal like this one, but he will look enough the part to accomplish nearly the same result.

I'd kill your POS dog in three seconds flat.

Dogs are good as an alarm not much else. Unless they are the real-deal-holyfield-trained attack dog.



Dave

Hmmm...

You'd piss your pants if she had a grip on you.

PS The point of a fearless dog is to give me time to go for my gun.

Yeah.... you piss your pants walking the dog when a negro in a pickup comes by.

Good gravy, that's the oldest trick in the book here.. that or do you have a light, do you have a dollar. Getting you to give up one hand.. or both.

Here, they don't even bother with that too much any more unless you spot 'em closing on you first. It's mostly sneaking and hiding Niger(ian) schit, looking to surprise you.

Blocking your view using the gas pumps is a big favorite.

Welcome to Barry's world.

Mistake number two, one being not having a gun, I don't let any stranger approach me, when they started their goon swagger over towards him he should have told them, get back, dont fu-k with me.

But, not having a gun, he was fu-ked from the start, glad the old Soldier is gonna make it, he now has learned a hard lesson on how to act, some don't get a repeat.

I've dealt with dogs a fugk of a lot meaner and more capable than that mutt you call a dog.




Dave

I'm glad you're not a mugger, then. Besides, no one wants even one solid bite, even if they think they can defeat the dog in combat.

PS My dog is awesome!

Anybody who intentionally is going to attack or rob a guy with a bad-azzed looking dog probably is going to deal with the dog first.

The guys looking for an easy target will avoid anyone with a sizable dog.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THAT^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

True, but we're talking about odds again. "I guess I can take my tiny gun, or no gun, out for a walk because I have my big-azzed dog with me and most 'normal' criminals look for an easy target."

The right gun first, a good dog will be another advantage, were I a robber, I wouldn't pick anyone looking me dead in the eye witha damn bulldog or rott at their side.

Especially if the bulldog or rott is looking like she's waiting for the go signal. That's my dog's look, as she stares down gangsta wannabes we occasionally pass on evening walks, many of whom won't deviate one iota from their path to avoid her. It's a pride thing, I think (on the part of the wannabe). She doesn't bark or growl. Not one speck. She's a perfect lady. The leash remains slack, and she remains at my left side (my dogs are trained to walk proper on a leash). It's just a body language of total confidence and readiness (and, in her case, just a little bit of hoping, LOL).

Crackheads and tweakers ain't wired like that when they're on the stuff. First of all, the risks/rewards based thinking is long gone. They'll commit to action based on a split second notion and go full out when they do. Then you're in for a bull ride.

TRH,

My apology for what I said about your dog this morning.

I was hungover and there was no reason for my being that caustic.




Travis

Ain't this a town of just 1,800 people, at 6 o'clock in the morning? The sort of place where nothing ever happens?

Sounds to me that he was placed in a real difficult situation even if he did have a gun. What are ya gonna do, pull your weapon and tell a guy asking for a cigarette to get the fugg back?

Had a walk-up situation like that happen to me one time at night outside a strip mall when I was walking home late; two street evangelists from a well known urban outreach ministry approach me and walk right up to my personal space. Made me realize how easy it is for someone to do that, and short of turning away and actively evading as they approach, there ain't a whole lot one can do about it.

Sounds like for the elderly gent who got jumped the situation went from normal to FUBAR in just a second or two. I hope he recovers well.

Birdwatcher

There's a reason "GFY" is considered an appropriate verbal greeting in some parts of the earth.




Dave

That statement demonstrates a lot of quality on your part, and is very much aprreciated.

I agree.

If you dig really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really deep, I'm not that bad of a person.

Some days.




Dave

Agreed, no need in being a crook anyway, and really no need in being a crook getting the chit torn outta your ass by a chainsaw bulldog while you're in the process of catching 45 cal slugs.

Exactly.

That would make for a really chitty last day.

I don't know why, but that quote is just funny as hell. lmao

Just the imagery of it is hilarious.

http://www.wymt.com/content/news/Mo...nson-County-home-invasion-410781465.html

I think if you Google search Dwain Palmer attack Hinckley Minnesota you can read the newspaper article about this. They only took his cell phone which allowed the police to find them.
This man had extensive plastic surgery and cracked ribs.
The surgeon said that his injuries were among the worst he has ever seen.
One of the dirt bags just got out of prison in November.
I guess they just attacked him for the fun of beating a 64 year old white man.

Looks like the mother and son team got beat up a bit, themselves. Perhaps while resisting arrest?

Mr. Conley owns a tire business. They are the ones I buy my tires from, about 5 years bought a motorcycle off his son Chris who had a dealership and who was sitting beside him in the video. This crap happens too often in this a relatively small town of around 4K.

Damn, seeing that old gentleman bruised up like that just makes a guy's blood boil.

They should be killed, period.

Didn't realize that his happened over 6 years ago.


http://www.presspubs.com/article_fa2fdcc9-ac60-5c81-87db-e68fec579142.html

That's exactly what you do. Put your hand up to let them know you don't appreciate the approach. Use your command voice to tell them to "Stop, don't come any closer, I have a gun." If they don't have bad intent no harm done. If they do they don't want someone yelling and attracting attention.

Neither did whelennut.




Dave

I wouldn't shed any tears if they hanged themselves in their respective cells.

Exactly. We live in a dangerous world.

Some people are adept at exuding a don't phuoc with me attitude. Some people not so much.

i had to kind of smile after reading the last coupld of posts. I have a redhawk about half buried in my chair in the living room, been breaking in the trigger. That and this made me think of a friend of mine, that as an old man lived up in quemato, by himself. Went in there one day, and there was ken in his chair, mostly lived out of that chair in the living room. I saw some metal glinting to the left of his leg but pretty well covered. Asked him about it. It was a .45colt revolver he kept there in case of "uninvited guests." I still smile at that.

You hope......

Last thing I'm going to yell in public is, "I have a gun".

Seems to be an extremely slow thinker.

My thought as well.

I am hearing now locally that the marks on the mother and son team came from the 80 year old man.
I guess he got a few licks in before they took him down.

Same here. I strongly believe in the element of surprise. (That's why I do not open-carry.)

L.W.

Me either, I prefer something more along the lines of, "I have a fuggn Rocsoe and you take one fuggn step closer I'm going to shoot you in the fuggn face".

You could also substitute liver or spine for face.

Whisper you're gonna shoot em in the dick and make sure they live ;]