Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Three against one

I find this an interesting thread.. I live in a town of 1600+ or_.. No rez near by, but lots of folks I don't know or recognize.. I taught here, so I know most of the old timers.. We have a hot spring that draws all kinds of folks and plenty of bums.. I live not far from it.. Often walk by on my walks.. Now mostly late morning ..
Awareness is my key right now.. I don't take my dogs down there, but am carefully watching who is lurking around the area.. We get some real dirt bags loafing here, and of course the cops are busy eating doughnuts.. I have Glocks, 1911's and a host of big bores.. Sometimes I carry my 19 or my S & W m. 28 4".. But mostly my J in .357. I shoot it often, and several times when I didn't like the looks of someone or a small group, I quietly slid it into my jacket pocket..
But with this post, and cold weather, it will also be easy to take the 19 or 21 in addition..
Have never been in a shoot out, but have been in several confrontations with folks.. Mostly I had a big bore revolver ready or in a holstered position where it was obvious it would be used.. It either warned them or gave me confidence they lacked..
This is such a difficult question to deal with second hand.. We now have a large group of Spanish speaking men in town.. None have ever been a problem, but I am leery of what is being said that I don't understand..
I know the new autos are excellent.. But after shooting revolvers for 50 + years, I feel so at home with them..

M. Sagebrush, said the J is an excellent pocket pistol, I have to agree, but the 19 may have to find a way into my everyday walk..
This thread certainly has given me much to consider about my everyday walk.. Thanks all of you..

This was a good post. You should have stopped right there.

Some of you guys make me laugh.

Number one thing he should of had a gun.

Number two he should have been paying attention (this is really no. 1).

Number three he should have had a good flashlight.

Number four he should of had a dog that would at least bark at people.

I would almost bet money that if he would pointed a flashlight at these guys they would have went on their way.

Personally I try to never carry just a J frame but I guarantee you when that first round would have went off people would have scattered. Only the very dedicated or very impaired would have stuck around.

Dink

handguns are like hammers, all built with a different purpose in mind. Many years ago me and another guy had to face down and disarms a rather large group of armed bikers, that were not totally impressed. It did happen, but i was thinking belt fed machine gun.
I never felt nakkid with a six shot revolver, still don't really, but i live in the land of multiple assailants. And that is the reaons for a 19, a cz, name a bunch of others. I can get a lot of ammo in a glock or cz. It's one thing to talk about it, another to be faced with the reality of it when its dark and your heart is pumping.
My neighbor a few years back starting shooting at his front door at multiple assailants. he had a five shot revolver, they were shooting at him too. He had one or two rounds left when they broke off. I suggested maybe he should consider a little more firepower.

You will not get the fight you want. You will get the fight you get, and then have to deal with it.

Personally when discussing these things I try to remind people that "average" fights are in my experience a total fallacy.

Your opponents are not going to dictate the manner in which they attack you, based on what concealed carry gun you have under your jacket.

Plus, while I advocate J Frames for pocket carry, I sure as heck don't advocate them as a primary or sole handgun for most situations. It is exceedingly easy to pull a trigger 5 times just dealing with one threat, let alone multiples.

Additionally, while one of those 5 rounds may actually kill your attacker, it may take a while, and odds are pretty likely that you are not going to get much of an immediate reaction.

It may take 30 seconds or more for a visible reaction to be evident. That is a LONG time, and many things may change in that course of time. Most competent guys I know who carry a J Frame can empty one in well under 3 seconds.

In the first 30 seconds you may just find that the person you put a few rounds into has just stabbed you multiple times, you may have had a hand or arm receive significant trauma, and no longer be functioning properly, etc, etc.

Anybody ever practice one handed reloads of a J Frame? How about one handed reloads of a J frame when you are shaking, covered in liquid, and still have a situation that is dynamic/rapidly evolving.

These are all reasons why most knowledgeable folks with previous experience being involved in shootings carry high capacity semi autos.

Again, as it has been said before, consider that the reason to carry a high capacity semi auto is not to shoot more, but to manipulate less.

Instead of spending time reloading, you can use your hands to shield loved ones, open doors, block doors, get in a vehicle, or apply a tourniquet or other first aid/trauma care.

A good example is the crossroads mall attack, where the Muslim guy dressed as a security guard attacked and stabbed multiple people.

He was shot over and over and over. He got shot, fell down got up and attacked again and again. That is reality.

Watch here and think about if what you carry would be sufficient:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oRgKglQy0o


There are actually numerous self defense shooting videos where the defender shoots his attacker and there is very little if any visible reaction initially.

Those are with just one attacker. Add multiple attackers and the odds of calmly shooting 2 then giving a 3rd guy "one in the liver" while remaining upright and unscathed is in my opinion exceedingly unrealistic and wishful thinking.

Put away the ego and be prepared to deal with the very messy and less than optimal world of reality.

Additionally when dealing with people at contact distances, pretty much every time the fight goes to the ground. You really need to have some ground fighting skills, both with and without weapons. One should have the ability to shoot from the ground, as well as draw from the ground, in addition to knowing some weapon retention.


Frankly I think the very VAST majority of CCW folks and gun enthusiasts would be FAR better off to attend some ground fighting/shooting classes, rather than buy another pretty pistol that they can play "show and tell" with, both to their friends, and online buddies.

Force on force training with simunitions is a perfect example.

Learn how to manage unknown contacts, and deal with evolving situations. The reality is that even in training, it never goes as smooth as it does while envisioning how you would handle it. Watching a video of yourself and your performance during unknown contact management and simunitions training will very quickly reveal weak areas that can be addressed.



That was long winded, but if it encourages some critical thinking then maybe it was not a waste of time.

It wasn't wasted on me.

Mac, thanks, living in a small rural town it is tough to realize what the real world is like..

I see I must change my everyday carry guns.. And maybe take a class or so..

Awhile back I posted that I don't care about 50 yd accuracy.
This is the reason why. If somebody is close enough to hit you or kick you then why do you need a pistol that will shoot a 3" group at 50 yds?
I think target sights are only good for ripping my clothes when drawing the pistol.
As usual Mr Sagebrush has given us some valuable advice.
whelennut

No, your rationale then was FOS and it remains so. Just like your flawed understanding of self-defense laws and the idiot you refer to as an "instructor".

All great stuff in that post but especially this. You don't know what you don't know, and if you haven't had any training of this sort with a good instructor, you will have your eyes opened if you go seek out such training.

As a side note (with no desire to make this a "my training group is better than yours" thread), Mackay, who do you train with?

There is no reason you can't have the skill to hit something at 50 yards, while still having the skill to do the same up close and fast. That doesn't mean you should carry a competition gun for EDC, but your justification above seems more of an excuse not to stretch your skill level than anything else. Any decent carry pistol capable of eyeball accuracy across a room will also be capable of making good hits at 50 yards; the weak link is you, not the gun.

"A while back" was 14 months ago. Letting that post bury itself would have been a good option.

Dink pretty much nailed it. First off, I'm thinking your friend didn't have a gun. If he had and had the awareness and training to deploy it, my guess is they would have beat feet without hearing a shot fired. That said, there is really no excuse for carrying a little, low-cap gun like that in Minnesota in the winter, unless he just couldn't afford anything else. But in the end, this wasn't about not having enough capacity. As for you again, I'd not carry a low cap gun when I could conceal just about anything, unless I couldn't afford a high-cap.

Past couple of months I've spent a lot of time carrying both a pocket revolver and a Glock on the belt. Previously I mainly carried just a Glock OWB.

One really nice thing about the J-frame/LCR is you can carry them in a coat pocket. Walking in cool weather with hands in your pockets, there's nothing you could get to quicker or easier unless you're carrying it in your hand. An auto on the belt (not that you have to wear it there but I do) is going to be under a coat/sweater/etc and in a scuffle might be hard to get to, especially if you're wearing it behind your hip, you're on your back on the ground, and wearing a coat.

There's something to be said for being able to get the "little" gun into play quickly instead of taking a beating going for the belt gun.

It's not about "need". A good blaster will take care of business, but one that is accurate isn't ever a bad thing. Dink's flashlight comments should not go unheeded. You can get a damned good flashlight at Walmart that will really light things up with one AA battery, for under $30. I'd rather have that than extra capacity, if I had to choose between the two in the situation described. There are even better flashlight options available if you order off the internet and can get the Chinamen to actually deliver what they market.

A five or six shot rev is always balanced out nicely with a big knife on your off-side.

Almost without exception, in a situation like this unless the thug wannabes have a gun also, one hit to one of the attackers is all it takes to send the rest fleeing.

Maybe

..after that your state of mind will be what deems who's going to the hospital or to the morgue.

Always practice head shots. End of fight!!