A little while ago on this forum there was a thread about the whether to choose a 6.5x55 or a .257 Roberts.

I mentioned in one of my posts on the subject that it was pretty easy to safely get 3000 fps from a 115-grain bullet in the .257, whereupon I was of course challenged. I countered this by pointing out that most .257 Roberts data is very wimpy, and newer powders have changed things.

Well, I just got my latest Hodgdon Annual Manual and was browsing through it. In the .257 Roberts data the fastest load with the 115-grain Nosler Patition is listed at 3049 fps, and the powder is Hybrid H100V, the maximum charge 46.0 grains. This is from a 24" barrel, so still should be somewhere around 3000 in a 22" barrel.

The interesting thing about this data is that it isn't even +P. On fact the pressure for the maximum load is only 46,600 CUP, not anywhere near the 50,000+ CUP most modern cartridges are loaded to.

I haven't tried this load yet but intend to soon. And no, it isn't a misprint, since the 100-grain data shows a maximum velocity of 3205 fps with H100V.

Don't know why anyone would doubt you John your knowledge and experience is better than a manuel

No fair getting the books before we do....!!

Thanks for the tips,I happen to be loadin my small bores now.Just got a # of Magnum and RL17 to try...

John,

Inspired by your writing,I went out and bought a new 257 Roberts,a Kimber Select.

It functions just fine and shoots well too.

The first factory load that I tried was the Federal Premium with the 120 grain Partitions.

Three of them will hit in a little less than an inch and the chrony said they were going 2940 fps some 10 feet from the muzzle from the 22 inch barrel.

If Federal can get close to 3000 fps with a 120 grain bullet,I'm pretty sure the rest of us can get a 115 grain bullet there too.

In fact,rounds like the 257 Roberts,280 Remington,and 30-06 which have pressure limits in commercial ammo of 50,000 cup or less,generally respond very nicely to handloads which often can safely beat factory velocites.

On the other hand,if you try to beat factory velocity with a number of cartidges which have higher saami limits,like the 243,270,308,and the WSM series,you have to run some pretty spoooky pressures to get there.

Lots of people here understand the difference,but some folks just can't wrap their mind around it.

Thanks, JB

I see Hodgdon also has that load listed in their data on their website.

I'll have to get some H 100V and try it in my .257 AI.

JB,

I have to agree with you 100%, 3000 fps with 115's was certainly safely attainable before the new Hodgdon arrived at your doorstep. It was a reality in Montana and also here in Minnesota.

ruraldoc,

Thanks for the info on the Federal 120-grain load. That's also been my experience with it, somewhere around 2900 fps depending on the rifle.

In fact, with one exception the factory loads for the .257 Roberts are pretty much up to snuff now. In fact I believe all the factory loads use bullets over 100 grains now, which may or may not be a good thing to some people.

Only the Remington "traditional" load with the 117 round-nose Core-Lokt is still loaded to old-time velocities, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. It makes a perfect "managed recoil" load for beginning hunters.

JB,

One local friend,introduced all of his kids,five girls,to hunting with a the 257 Roberts and that 117 grain Remington load.

Those girls killed a bunch of deer. The next generation of kids(my pal's grandchildren) now use the same rifle and load. It is 70s vintage Ruger M77 with a tang safety.

Here's the thing, eventhough the old Reminton 117 grain roundnose only has a muzzle velocityof 2600 fps,it kills stuff really dead.

I've not taken a look @ H 100V what's it sort of close to in terms of other powders?

Tanks

Dober

(I've a small stash of the old 117 Noz semi's, now that's an elk killing machine 4 sure..grin

"HYBRID 100V� This excellent new product is the result of combining the technologies of spherical powders and extruded propellants. The chemistry of a spherical powder is combined with the geometry of an extruded propellant, creating a smooth-metering, super short granule extruded shaped propellant with high energy. HYBRID 100V has a burn speed between H4350 and H4831, yeilding superb performance in such popular calibers as 270 Winchester, 243 Winchester Super Short Magnum, 7mm Remington Magnum, 300 Winchester Magnum and dozens more.
"

http://www.hodgdon.com/rifle.html

Not sure why there was a doubt on this i was getting 3050FPS with 110grn accubond in a very safe load with RL17. I would have no doubts that I could push a 115grn at 3000fps in that rifle. This is in a kimber 84M montana with a 22" barrel.

That old Remington load shoots dead on the sights on my Mannlicher,kills deer well.
Since the gun now been scoped, it likes the Nosler 115
at about 2850 or so and kills cleanly as well.
I think I should try this 3000 fps in my Winchester and see how it does.
Good tips,JB

Nothin' like the facts to settle an argument.

Just came in from the range where I was working with my Ruger 77RL 257. It had a lot of carry wear when I bought it so I just had it parkerized. Got it dialed in to where it was shooting 1 - 1 1/4" at 100 yds. pretty consistently. I may start working with the 115 Noslers and the Hodgden recipe. Before I had the work done it was shooting Federal premium 120s into just over an inch. Today I was shooting Hornady 87s over 4350. It does ok for having that whippy little barrel.

Yep. Now if only one of the major manufacturers would put out a rifle so chambered that went 6-6.5lbs all up.

I believed you.

Your thoughtful posts helped convince me to buy three NOS rifles (Two Rugers M77's and a M70 XTR Featherweight) in 257 Roberts over the last few weeks. Sold my R600 and R660, both in 6.5RM to finance the deal.

Before that particular thread and your line of reasoning ( AS WELL AS A FEW OTHERS ), I was really thinking I should go ahead and buy a 6.5x55 for the "extra" juice on the 120gr slugs. I did not want to be just "good or adequate" on larger deer at ranges and different angles to 300yds or so. A 115gr at 3000 or a 120gr at 2900 will do it easliy.

I usually hunted with a R600 in 6.5RM and there was absolutely NO question of power at 300yds, but occasionally I got shots at 50 to 70 yds and there was A LOT of meat destruction.

I would often think, standing there in the woods of Idaho, I really should find a cartridge that pushes a 120gr bullet around 2900fps or so. Of course I thought of the Bob and the Swede, just took me 5 years to move everything around a little.

Can't wait to hunt this November. Thanks.

Lj

NULA: http://www.newultralight.com/

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

I missed the "challenge", but 3,100-3200 with a 100gr bullet has been doable since RL-22 became available.

Stop! Please stop!

I've got .257 Roberts on the brain as I've been contemplating what calibers I'd like to pick up for my boys to hunt when they are old enough (my oldest is 2 and the youngest is 1 month! LOL). The Bob is one that I just keep coming back to and you guys are not helping with this!

So... who still chambers a .257 Roberts these days? If you were to pick one up who would you go with (whether new manufacture or previous make)?

Gaaah! My wife just had a baby and I can't afford a new rifle... I need to get out of here.

Wow!Look at the difference between Hybrid and the other powders...!

This is a very cool thread;thanks to JB.....long live the 257 Roberts!

There's a gun show I'll be attending this weekend. One of the regular vendors usually has a pretty good selection of Ruger Hawkeyes. A Roberts may follow me home. A 358 Win. almost did last time.

Hawk1,

Actually, the .257 was capable of 3100-3200 with a 100-grain ever since the introduction of IMR4350 in 1940, and certaonly after mil-surp H4831 in the 1950's, but the weird, antique pressure standards for commercial ammo kept it from happening, even in handloading manuals.

Though I will check my copy of the first Speer manual, published in 1954....

Musta been a short action Roberts. The long action can get at least 3500fps.

.

Puts it right there with a 25/06.

My 17-month old son, Jack, has a kimber montana 257bob/3.5-10 luppy and talleys - - one day in 8 or so years *bang*!~

While the velocities stated are nice indeed, there is one thing that can not be denied. The 257 Bob can never equal the 6.5x55 in killing power because of the bullets offered.

There is nothing available for the 'Bob that equals the 140-160 grain bullets loaded by the Swede. For deer, it's flip a coin. For anything bigger, the Swede has the advantage. 105yrs of history stands with the Swede.

Killing power?

Ruger, and Kimber both in 257 roberts.

I don't think I will ever be without a Roberts again. I am very happy with my Kimber select classic wish I had bought a montana in the bob instead of a 308 now.

dmsbandit,

Thought we'd hear from you before too long.

Here's my question, which I wanted to ask on the other thread:
Have you ever actually hunted with, handloaded or even shot a .257 Roberts?

Killing power?

Anything you can kill with the swede you can kill with a 257 roberts.

Nope. Never saw the need for one. I own a 243 Win, a 250 Savage, (3) 6.5x55s, a 260, (2) 284 Winchesters, (2) 308s, a 30-06, a 358 Win, a 35 Whelen, a 38-55, and a 45 Colt rifle. So I think I have the North American game killing spectrum covered pretty well. But I have friends that have and do use the 'Bob. It's a fine cartridge but like any it has it's limits.

History has proven the Swede capable of killing big critters [including elephants]all over the world. I don't recall ever hearing of the 'Bob being used in Africa or any other distant land on critters big and small. But the Swede is world reknowned for it's killing abilities on critters of all sizes. The Swede was used for many years to win 1000yd matches and that is another area the 'Bob is MIA.

The 257 Roberts is a fine cartridge, it's just not as good as a Swede.

Riddle me this Batman,

Can a 257 Rob kill a Swede carrying a 6.5?

Ruraldoc,
That's good to know about the federals - I've got 3 or 4 boxes stashed away somewhere and should probably try those out of my Kimber Bobs...

Also was getting ready to order some more H4350 so I'll pick up some 100V also to try it out.

Elephants? Eland? Zebra? Bears?

dms,
History has also proven the bow and arrow capable of killing everything in the world...

dms,

There are no degrees of dead in hunting. Dead is Dead.

dmsbandit,

So I take it that you have killed elk and grizzly bears with your 6.5x55's? Or did you used your bigger rifles on elk and grizzly bears?

Or have your friends who own .257 Roberts rifles failed to kill elk and grizzly bears with their .257's?

Please explain the precise limits of the .257 Roberts so that those of us who own both .257's and 6.5x55's can be sure not to screw up.

A Roberts question for anyone who can field it. Does Ruger make the RL or UL or whatever they call it these days with a Syn stock/stls and in Roberts?

Thx
Dober

As usual, you are correct John.
I have only loaded my own 257 to those velocities with RL-22, where even the Alliant data (not the recent Speer stuff) was extremely soft and had a lot of room, even for plus P loads.

I have also used H4350 to 3,100 and change, I just prefer to use very slow powders in most of my loads when I can get away without too much compression.

The BYOB loves RL-22, and I suspect the Swede does as well, but alas I don't own a Swede, prolly never will, so I don't KNOW jack about it......

I have a Ruger MKII and sent my Rem. 25/06 down the river, even though it exceeded the "killing power" of the 257 and the Swede, if math alone creates dead animals.....

Any one of of those can be taken with a 257 roberts not the ideal choice for elephants obviously, but niether is the swede.

Next lets argue which is better the 270 win or the 280 rem.

Dober,
I think the UL,S are only offered in wood blue now.
Unless I just cant find them on there site anymore.

Hawk1,

I have used RL-22 in the .257 and it is indeed a very good powder, especially with heavier bullets. It's also very good in the Swede....

I suspect the reason the .257 wasn't used on any elephants was that it came out too late (1934), after the boys with 6.5x55's had shot all the big bulls.

I had an art teacher in high school that his sole rifle was a "Bob" he used it for everything and always had good reports about it.

......just thought I would enter my vast knowledge of the .257 Roberts on this here thread.

JB, I get an 'easy' 2900fps shooting 115's out of my 22" Kimber. 44 grains of H4350 does the trick, I'm at 9x firings in one lot of brass with no issues.

It also helps to have a profusion of military ammunition with 160 grain "full patch" ammo as well. The great elephant kills could have easily been with 7mms or 8mms; even the 30-03.


This is kind of the same argument of the 35 Whelen versus the 9.3 X 62. Really more ado about twists, bullets, times and places, including the places stuff is hit.

The 270 v. 280 arguments are far more reasonable

You know, come to think of it I've never read of anybody killing an elephant with a 6.5x55. The 6.5x54 Mannlicher, yes, but not the 6.5x55....

Karamojo Bell used the 6.5x54 until he realized the 160-grain full-patch military bullets weren't all that reliable. Then he switched to the 7x57, and we all know how that went. But few realize he eventually went to a .318 WR when big bulls got scarcer and spookier, because the 7mm bullets didn't penetrate at bad angles as well as a 250-grain .318.

I think we've drifted a bit here. The Swede and the Bob are about equal. Save your breath, you'll need it when you're 95.

Pushing a 115 gr pill out of my Bob at about 3000fps only confirms that I don't "need" a Swede, and the next time I go try and shoot some elephants, remind me to take something a touch more game appropriate!!!

I've killed 17 elephants with my 6.5x54.

Didn't the 333 have some mystique about it too?

Some guy named Elmer thought highly of it, and it wasn't used in NA a whole lot...

I've come to the conclusion this "killing power" thing is based solely on whether or not a cartridge was used in pre-war Africa, or at minimum a bore size. (grins)

A double tap side by side gives you a slightly bigger hole than a 50 cal.

The elephants I can believe.

17 grizzlies and I know you're fulla chit....you'd have used a Roberts on them.

Don't even show a pic of that pig you nailed with a 250.

.007 is the difference between dead and running free.

15 of the 17 were shot going away

Cheerio, or back of the head?

Cheerio of course. I'd not try that with a Roberts...

We got these velocities with the cartridge back in the 1980's,and mostly used IMR4831 back then as I recall.We never had a problem.....

Can someone tell me where I can buy some 140-160gr .257 caliber bullets? I need to get a 'Bob and see what it will do with those bullet weights.

those should only be used on Elephant exhaust pipe shots, they "way over penetrate" on everything else.

What does and extra 20-40 grains do for you slick? Just realized, another New Yorker, that explains it.

The Bob kills deer and antelope and coyotes and woodchucks just fine...which is why I like it.....what it does on grizzlies and elk I could care less about...I got other rifles for that stuff and they are not 6.5x55's

If you in fact see some Hawkeyes in bob, I'd be interested to hear some feed back from you especially if you can handle one of the Ultra Lights. I have not seen one, but I'm very interested in this rifle.

Wow, with an elephant gun 6.5 in your hands, what do you need these for, especially for "North America"?

JB, IIRC, wasn't the original .257R loaded to 2400 +/- fps? Then - oh, around 1980 or so the loads were tweaked (and in the books) to show 2800+/-??

I've never seen the need to run the Roberts much over 2800.. Lyman's #48 shows the max with 117s to be just a hair over 2700.. I load mine to 2850 and it's a very comfy and accurate round.

Nosler's #6 shows a 115 grain pill at just over 3000 with a 95% powder load. I think that's my most up to date manual..

I believe the original factory "deer" load was very similar to the one Remington still offers, a 117-grain roundnose at 2650 fps.

This bullet was used for a couple of reasons: Apparently it was believed at the time that round-nosed bullets gave the best accuracy, plus the old notion of "brush busting." A RN 117 was also the heaviest bullet that would stabilize in a .250 Savage with a 1-14 twist.

Most hunters came to identify .25 caliber with a 117 RN so much that when Weatherby brought out commercial .250 Wby. Magnum ammo the heavy-bullet load was (you guessed it) and round-nose 117! This was still offered until a few years ago, I believe.

Is that what makes the 6.5 Swede "kill" better?

Lay down the Gun Notes, we have made some progress. Most folks aren't trapesing in the woods with 300 grainers in their 338's, either.

Variety is the spice of life.

The point no one is admitting to is the fact that the Swede is a more capable cartridge for critters bigger than deer and such because of the HEAVIER [higher BC and SD] bullets available.

Like I said before, flip a coin between the two if you hunt deer type critters and you'll never know the difference. It's when things get bigger that the 'Bob is hampered compared to the bullets available for the Swede or any 6.5 for that matter. I remember reading about a 480lb North Carolina black bear killed by Clay Harvey with a mild mannered Swede and 160gr Hornady RN bullets. Those 2400fps pills went for stem to stern with little fuss and killed that bear with ease. That's why bigger bullets can be useful.

I wouldn't sell a 'Bob to get a Swede, and I wouldn't sell a Swede to get a 'Bob. But if you're buying one or the other for the first time, there are differences to consider.

And I wouldn't cite Clay Harvey as a reference.

I can hear the John Lovitz character now: "Yeah, 480 pounds, that's the ticket."

Good point!

I have owned a .257 Roberts for over 20 years. It is a fine cartridge and I have enjoyed it very much.

Why did I get a .257 Roberts? Because I wanted one. For my purposes, a .243 would probably work just as well, but I wanted something different.

I just recently had an action re-barreled to 6.5x55. Will it do anything (for me, as I ain't got no moose's, grisley bar's or oliphants here) that the .257 Roberts won't? No. It's just that I wanted one.

Point is, get what you want, and don't pay attention to all the gack, because for most of us the gack don't matter. Just look at the title of this post. What will a .257 115gr @ 3,000fps accomplish that a .257 115gr @ 2,800fps won't?

dmsbandit,

Somebody already mentioned that using Clay Harvey as a source of information might be iffy, but I have some experience with the 160 from "the mild-mannered Swede." If old Clay did indeed shoot lengthwise through a 480-pound bear with that bullet, then the bear was just as full of hot air as, well, some gun writing.

From my experience with the 6.5x55, I would much rather shoot a 120-grain Barnes TSX at a big bear of any species than the 160 Hornady. This isn't to say that the 160 Hornady isn't a decent bullet. It is--but it usually doesn't penetrate all that deeply.

I can't speak to the angle of the shots, but the bear pictures with a Melvin Forbes 6.5x55 was enormous. 3 Shots from all different angles [according to the write-up] and the Blackie died in a hurry.

Hint: Most things that die in a hurry aren't needing shots 2 and 3 and more bullet weight isn't going to fix such things. YMMV.

Scott,
You should have listed that in the ad for it. Guaranteed elephant killer...

How and the hell did the 6.5 get brought up in the first place--what am I missing?

On the other hand- The .300 weatherby is no doubt, more of a better cartridge in general then the 6.5, is that random enough??

FMP

I always heard that when shooting things that can bite, eat or claw you, you shoot until they stop moving.

Don't believe everything you read, even if it's accompanied by a photo of a dead animal.

I don't know about Clay....but I do know that I shot a very large (not 450 lb) bruin in Montana with a 63 Sierra @ 178 yds and the bullet basically went end to end and exited where his Adams Apple is. Do bruins have A Apples...?

Point being, the fact that someone supposed did it with a Swede means absolutely notta to me.

Dober

has anyone started talking about Sectional Density yet? I want to stay tuned for the next round. Gosh a 115 Barnes out of Bob at 3000 is real interesting to me but the 100TSX is all I need.

i shot a decent whitetail in the right front shoulder (facing me at a little angle) and recovered the 160 Hornady RN under the hide of the left rump. this when launched from a .264 Win.

For what it's worth,NC (eastern) black bears don't carry much fat,they're active all winter,no need to sleep,too hot.But, they do get big from all the farmer's crops.The state record is a little over 800lbs,as I recall. I'm not surprised the 160 Horny bullet stopped,my bud's 6.5x54MS stopped a lot on his African hunt,but shots were all spot on and stuff died....
OK,back to crankin on the Bob.....

toad,

I have also seen the 160 Hornady 6.5 RN stopped on a broadside shot on an average whitetail buck--from a 6.5x55.

My point in my first post is that the penetration varies considerably with that bullet, and from what I can tell the penetration often depends on how much it expands. This varies from shot to shot, depending what it hits and impact velocity.

If I want consistently deep penetration with a 6.5, I pick some sort of premium bullet, whether a 140 Nosler Partition or a 120-130 TSX.

Easy guys, maybe if we're lucky we'll learn what Clay Harvey thought of the 284!

Who is Clay Harvey?

Wouldn't that be fascinating?

One of the few shooting books I've round-filed over the years was one of Clay's. I can't remember the exact title (which says something in itself) but it was something like POPULAR SPORTING RIFLE CARTRIDGES, and was supposedly an in-depth look at 50 hunting rounds, with handloading information.

I was sent a review copy. After reading it I decided to add up the number of cartridges that Clay had used to shoot even one animal, based on the information provided in the book. It turned out he'd actually hunted with maybe a third of the rounds. And he hadn't actually fired a rifle chambered for a few of the cartridges.

Hey, come to think of it, this is a lot like some of the
hunting experience we read about on the Internet!

Who is "Amanuel" ?

I'm not a gun writer, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night but I have seen what a 25 caliber can do on an occasion or three. I've yet to have the desire to use 115's and 120's, though I don't doubt they work, albeit with way over penetration....

Just a dink shot with a 25. I can only imagine what a 160gr RN from a Swede would have done.

I had the same book. I remember his story of taking an animal out to 400+ yards with a 308 Winchester. At my age then I was fascinated by that story. I eventually threw away my copy too as I felt my actual experience with a 308 Win afield was a far better teacher.

I've heard something like that before about TSX's

Can't really say with a 25 caliber, as I've only used X version, but they do way over penetrate.

You can't kill bears wearing a yellow shirt.

The yellow was countered with a blue rifle, so it gives a zero color effect. At least that's according to 'Overcoming Big Game Color Vision' by Clay Harvey.

JB, I seen 160 gr Hornaday 6.5 bullets stopped on Med sized White Tails myself, since I have maybe 6 or seven of them. I have shot a swede for a lot of years now. I am more inclined to go with a 156 gr Norma Oryx for heavy than white tails, if I wanted to stick with a heavy bullet. I seen nothing wrong with the 257 Roberts, I never owned one, but I would shoot game with one in a NYC second if some one offered up a rifle so chambered for the season. Now I have shot and hunted with a .250-3000 with both 100 gr and 117 gr Hornadays, and I never found that cartridge to be lacking. If anything most people would be able to shoot that one better than most and sticking a 100 gr Hornaday or 117 gr Hornaday RN in a good spot and well have a sharp knife handy. On day I would like to have a NULA Model 20 so chambered, a sort of modern Savage Model 20. Spent to many years reading and rereading Kollers "Shots at White Tails.

I need to find a copy of that to read, I see it referenced often.

gmsemsel,

The 156 Oryx is a good bullet--and both in 6.5 and 7mm. I have taken some 400-pound animals with it and it penetrates pretty darn well!

I am also a big fan of the .250 Savage, and like you (and Larry Koller) have never found it lacking on whitetails (or pronghorns or mule deer), though I've never taken any animals much past 200 yards with it.

Well, except for varmints. It will do a job on a prairie dog out to 400-500 yards....

Steelhead,

It is a good book. I might even have an extra copy. Let me check.

Thank you

Maybe the same thing??? I'm only guessing though...

is he the guy that said the .270 was way under powered for mule deer?

Nope

Steehead's greatest secret is his choice in hunting clothes!

JohnMoses and jimmyp,

Clay Harvey was a gun writer who was publishing quite a bit of stuff in the 1990's. He is no longer in the business, having left suddenly due to serious conflicts he got into with some manufacturers. And no, he wasn't writing trash about their products. It's a pretty well-known story inside the business but not something I would care to share on a public forum.

now you have got me curious..

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/925297/site_id/1#import

Gee, I forgot I was so forthcoming on that thread--probably because other people were already piling on old Clay.

thank you! Clay is a real piece of work!

I don't think I have that book ?

Was waiting for that pic, but couldn't recall what you used. Did you have to shoot it fifteen times due to biting and claws?



Does Boo Boo trying to eat 6 dozen jelly doughnuts from a barrel and some dude named Clay up in a tree count in the biting, eating clawing category?

Load up some 100 TTSX's and some 160 Hornadys and shoot a pile of stuff. Lots of things have happened since 1948.

There might even be better sources around here than Clay Harvey.....

250AI and I'm pretty certain I still had a few rounds left in the magazine, miraculously

You mean you didn't have to shoot that bear repeatedly because of the little-bitty bullets you used?

I felt safe, my pard was backing me up with a 223AI

Trick shooter..

Nice bear by the way and thanks for the link.

JM

More stunt shooting with another 25 cal, albeit a bit faster from the Roy. 100gr XLC at 200 yards did the trick, though I was a bit scared.

Should add the second biggest bear I've seen killed (that means I was there when the shenanigans occurred) was dropped with a 6mm/284. Seen that rifle kill a few impressive critters.

Might also have seen a few drop with a 243 but I don't want to overload folks.

I got a get one of those. It shot all the bones out that bear.

We see bears a good bit while deer hunting (at my Fil's camp) but as you know, we can't hunt them in Louisiana yet.

They had to relocate 32 of them from the Tensas Wildlife Refuge a couple of years ago. I called the LA. Dept of Wildlife and asked if they were considering limited draws for Bear tags in that part of the state and you would have thought I had asked for a bald eagle hunting permit....

I don't think they have any intentions of reducing over-populated areas by allowing hunters to take a few. I guess they will keep carting them off to other places until they are established everywhere before they will consider allwong a season.

More stunt shooting, 22/250, 63 Sierra, 178 yds and going away. Bullet pretty much went end to end going out his adams apple

Dober

Nice! I hope I'm not too old when they finally let us have a season here.

He's got a head on him. How much did he weigh Mark?

Bears ain't tough to kill is they...


Though I've seen a bunch of them drop at the shot but get right back up and run 20-40 yards. Don't see that with deer.

Thanks for telling me that. I'll shoot my first one twice.

To be fair, I have shot a few with a 35 Whelen also.

For our pre-WWII friend, did the 35 Whelen bear die quicker due to the "killing power" advantage?

Yes, but only because it's a slower bullet and had time to expand.

JM-that bruin was 335 lbs, 6'8" square, 20 3/16 on the beaner and best of all 5.5 years old. That wasn't a very good pic of it and it didn't give a good idea as to the real size. Here's another pic of the same bruin but a much more idea as to his size.

Give me a 2nd




Dober

And,,,one from an 06 Improved...grin

Dober

Yep a toad

And one from an 06 with a 180 mag tip, hard to believe an o6 would do it eh...

This one was 416 lbs, 7'1" square and a beaner of 20 something if I recall right..?

All Montana bruins, we can't compete with the volumes of bruins in Alaska and or the size that they get there but we do get some good ones from time to time

Dober

dat I am...not a bad bruin either if i do say so myself..grin

Dober

I'm not a good judge of bears but that one is a record compared to what I have seen.

I have only been seeing them down here for the last 7-8 yrs. and really only started seeing enough to compare over the last 3 yrs.

There is alot of cropland down here and they have plenty to eat but I haven't seen anything that looks like that or Steely's bear for that matter.

Depends on where in AK. On the island I was on it was the odd bear that would make 21", with most of the big ones going 19". One of the bears above couldn't be aged the other two were 17 and 18 years old respectively.

Go a few miles away to another island and 21"+ weren't that uncommon.

Better pic

this one is the oldest I've personally taken he went 19 yrs, also hunted with a bud who took a sow that went 22 and another friend took a sow that went 29..

Dober

Do you have to draw a tag or is there an open season with a limit on them?

How long can one live in the wild?

I know for sure that they can live to 18. Like Mark said I think they can make 30.

Where I was in Alaska black bear was only closed July/August and there was a 2 bear per season limit for residents, 1 for non I believe.

Here's a 15 year old




And some live ones

Do you spot an stalk? Set up on berry bushes? I don't have the foggiest idea of how they are hunted other than bait can hunts I've seen on TV.

That is a nice one in the 2nd pic and the 3rd pic is crazy. That bear didn't mind you getting that close to his grub?

Spot and stalk and lots of beach hunting also in SE but I've never personally shot one doing the beach hunt.

[IMG]

Beach

Gotta hit the rack, and back to the Roberto thread

Dober

The real photo is MUCH better on this one, damn scans

I had one follow me when I was walking out from a hunt once. Being they were pretty new to me, it was a disconcerting experience to put it mildly.

I would walk and it would follow off to the side about 25 yds away. When I stopped, it would stop and sometimes climb a tree and grunt.

It was getting dark and I damn sure wasn't going to run, but I wasn't going to let it get dark where I couldn't see that bear either.

I looked like one of those Mexican Olympic speed walkers...

I never really figured out why that bear followed me like that.

Those are some cool pics.

That's the nice thing about living in Alaska and being allowed to shoot a couple per season and such a long season. When you get one of those funny acting bears you can flame them.

This bear charged my pard, it was late October and the bear only had 3 legs. He didn't even have time to look though the scope, just a point and shoot thing. He puked and then humped out after his nerves settled. Me and another pard hiked back there the next day and skinned it for him. Wasn't an ounce of fat on the bear, he wouldn't have made it through the winter.

Thanks for the pics and the experiences, fellas.

I love 'hunting' bears, especially in the spring. I say hunt because mostly I just like watching and playing around with them.

I remember wanting to get some pics of a beaver dam one spring, set the rifle down and yanked out the camera. Went to a little drop off to climb down and there was a bear eating grass. I wasn't 2' from the top of his head. I looked back and saw my rifle laying on the ground 50 yards away. Did the slow step by step backwards. When I got the rifle the bear realized something was wrong and bolted.

When you see 20 bears a day you tend to have some silly encounters.

The pic with the bear on the falls, I was fishing there with a pard and I heard him yell 'HEY' I looked at him but he wasn't looking at me. I looked to my left and on a big fallen tree was a cub and I could have reached out and touched him. He was just checking [bleep] out, then it struck me, where the hell is mom.

I have a million bear stories, fun critters and I could go the rest of my life and never shoot another, unless they are acting WEIRD.

Could you go your life without shooting one?

I've shot a ton of crap that meant little when I was younger, but bloodlust is outweighed by good meat these days.

Serious question from one who hasn't.

JM, some of those cropland bears could grow to enormous sizes..the Carolina's and PA crank out some monster cropland bears.

No, not likely. Aside from hogs as a kid in SW Florida, a black bear was the first big game animal I ever shot. I remember it like it was yesterday.

Even though I can't hunt them, I appreciate the opportunity to see them now and learn a little something about bears.

After that one followed me, it changed things. Before, I never worried about anything that was in the woods with me with the possible exception of snakes.

Having that experience with the bear brought home the fact that a critter is now out there that could do some damage if it wanted to.

You'd enjoy blowing a deer call in brown bear territory....

JohnMoses,

Bear tags in Montana are over-the-counter for both residents and non-residents, and there's lot of public land to hunt. We have both a spring and fall season. No dogs or baiting are allowed, so it's all spot-and-stalk.

Most people head to the northwestern corner of the state (near Idaho and British Columbia) because there are more bears up there, but bears can be hunted all over the western third of the state. There aren't as many down here in southwestern Montana where Dober and I live, but there aren't as many bear hunters. Back when I was guiding I could always find somebody a bear, but whether or not they got it was another question. Some people get pretty excited when they see their first bear....

As to the age of black bears in the wild, a good friend of mine killed a 29-year-old sow in Alberta some years ago.

If you had to put a number to it, what percentage of bears in MT would be color phase?

Steelie, we'll see what John chimes in here with, cause hes prolly seen more bears than I have, but the bears Ive seen, the colored ones outnumber the black ones..I'd say about 60%/40%..


Ingwe

Interesting. The island I hunted I NEVER saw anything but black nor ever heard of anything but black.

That said, the majority of bears I shot did have the white chest chevron.

Get used to it now that you have them. Perplexing animals.

Once in spring Turkey I got between a mother and two cubs. She didn't like it.

Another time my English Cocker put two young ones up a tree and wouldn't leave the tree. Eventually I had to go get her while the mother sat and watched from about 40yards away. Once I got the dog away, she made some funky noise and they crawled down and we all went on our way. Didn't seem to bother her all that much.

That same Cocker started barking at a blow down once in Feb. I walked over and a Bear was hibernating. I watched as it raised its head-at which time I tripped and fell while backing up
-picked my self up and looked and it was sleeping again.

Had a big Pa black get up right next to me on a logging road while Deer hunting. It walked up a ways and then turned and walked back towards me, but turned and went down over. Stopped looked back and then started digging under fallen trees. Twice I could have touched it with the rifle barrel. Yea I was a little edgy. Actually it was a grown over logging skid trail. Thick as sin and I couldn't easily back away or I would have.

Other times they have left quickly as soon as they knew we were around.

My Cousin has had one coming up and laying on his back deck a couple times this spring. I figure he as a pic and will try to get it when I see him.

And thats interesting cause A chevron is rare here...

I have heard it said, and it seems to "bear" out....that the denser the vegetation and wetter the climate, the more black in the bears....the more arid and open, the more colors....
I have only ever killed one black "black bear".... all the rest have been colors...including my first, a smallish dude I shot with a handgun while fishing, that is what could best be described as a light milk chocolate...


Ingwe

On the color Q I'd say that for the most part it depends on what part of the state we're talking about as we have pods of the state that have more of this or that and so on.

But to put a # on it I'd say the % would be black 60 to 40 some color for the most part. I rarely see one that has a white chevron but do from time to time.

And my experience has been that for the most part the truly big bruins have been black tip to tip not that we've not found some good colored ones.

Once again it depends on what part of the state I'm hunting but I do see some blondes (bruins) but most of them are about the size of cocker spaniels..(I feel that they change colors as they mature but could be totally full of bear apples on that)

Dober

In my experience it depends on the part of the state. In the northwest there are more blacks, though there's still a good percentage of color-phase bears.

Down here in the southwestern part of the state color-phase bears are more common. Ingwe's guess of 60/40 is as good as any.

Chocolate-brown is the most common variation, but once in a while you'll see a "cinnamon" (light brown) or even a blond bear. The blond bears tend to die young due to lead-poisoning. A local friend got one a few years ago around here, a young bear.

I've seen some big color-phase bears in wilderness areas. A buddy and I got onto a big cinnamon bear just before sunset one year in the Bob Marshall. It was my shot and I passed, partly because in the dim light I couldn't be sure it wasn't a grizzly. My buddy was sure it was a black bear, but he wasn't willing to pay the 10-grand fine for me if it did turn out to be a griz.

On that particular hunt half the bears we saw were grizzlies, and the difference isn't always obvious. One of the top bear biologists in the world (Charles Jonkel of the U. of Montana) often said that he'd run into bears that he couldn't be sure about unless he caught them in a trap.

The prettiest color-phase bear I've ever seen up in northwestern Montana, too. It had a chocolate body but brick red legs and ears. It wasn't huge, maybe a six-footer, but it was too far to get to before dark and I never saw it again.

Dober, glad you chimed in cause you've seen and shot a schittload more bears in Mt. than me...
I have my own theory on the Blondes and why they are so small...mainly because they are so visible that hunters, and more importantly other bears, can spot them, and kill them...There is nothing a bear is more scared of than another bear.
I got that one blonde I keep posting the pic of that squared 6'1" and that is the biggest one Ive ever seen.Anywhere.

Ingwe

Yeah that's one of the best bruins a 6 foot blonde is a good thing...grin

The biggest blonde I've seen alive was 5 maybe 5 1/2 and had the red legs and red face so maybe it was a bottle blonde..

It'd be good to ask Madel or Frye and see what they say but I'm still for betting that they get darker as they get older. I've seen a lot more small blonde booboo's in the wild than I've ever seen in trucks. One of these days I'll get around to scanning some bruin pics.

Dober

You guys suck. I'm thinking I'm gonna need to rebarrel my SC M70 FW to .257 Robwah. Chit.

The ones I've seen down here are all black. The wife and I saw one with a white patch on the chest that stood up in a cotton field.

I watched one wreck a corn feeder while hunting at my Fil's in Louisiana, he had a white patch as well. I enjoyed watching him destroy that corn feeder.

So after reading 17 pages of this thread, I gather that if one hunts bears very much, you will have some weird stories and see a lot of bears, and that the 257 Roberts probably doesn't need much more than a good 100 grain bullet for deer-sized game, even though I am still interested in trying the heavier bullets. Did I miss anything in those 17 pages? If not, I'll go downstairs and load some 100 gr bullets in my 257. But it was an interesting thread, especially the bear pictures.

Anyone try 120gr Hornady HPs?

I was shooting some today and getting teenie weenie groups, but no chrony this trip..


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+1 on that. Very interesting thread, love to hear the stories that come out of discussions like this one...

Dad has been shooting them out of his 25/06 for years.

They do quite well, he hasn't recovered one yet.

But his is only a sample of 20-30 deer with an aoudad or two and 30-40 hogs thrown in .

I can't remember his exact load off the top of my head, but it involves 4350.

Bill

My 257AI shot the 120 Hornadys better than anything else . I got the best group I ever shot with any rifle with that load - three shots you could cover with a nickel at 200 yards .

I got a tad over 3k with RL 22 as I recall . I killed a few whitetails with it . The last one was a pretty ordinary buck that I shot thru the ribcage as he was chasing a doe and I had to get my dog to find him . He ran down into , and up out of a draw and made it close to 400 yards before he fell dead .

There was not a drop of blood anywhere along his track even though he was shot thru both lungs . The exit hole was only about three times the bullet diameter and not much stuff torn up inside so I figured it didn't expand .

Thanks, Scott.

I have some bear stuff in the works for Idaho. Hopefully it will happen.

I could go the rest of my life and never shoot another, but I'd hate to never hunt them again.

Totally the way I feel as well Scott! I really dig getting out there and looking for them, stalking them, calling them and such but have less and less desire to drop the hammer on them. Edited to also say that I'd not be suprised if I didn't give one the old Nozler Nap one of these days again though...grin

I do enjoy taking bruin virgins and such after them though. Fun to see how they light up when we're in pursuit..

Dober

This is a common emotion and characteristic with experienced hunters and favorite game animals;they want to "hunt", but the killing part is not essential....just observing here

I didn't read this whole thread, but I know exactly what you're talking about ^^^. I love to duck hunt, but I could care less if I ever shoot another duck.

That's why I get so worked up about taking a couple of newbies! They want to shoot everthing that comes in and my dog gets lots of work! Everybody wins!

Always enjoyed going/taking people after a bear. Bear hunting is a fairly social adventure.

That's what I was using last week, 4350. I got a couple very small groups as results. I've always used 100gr Hornadys in my 257R and had good groups/results with them, so never bothered to try out the 120s till the other day. I was very impressed.

.

Ok, this thread has deviated long enough! Go buy a 270 Win. and a roll of freezer paper. End of story. OH, a 7x57 will do in a pinch.

I got all three.

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Agreed on black bears. I've got a 7+ footer on the wall, and the skull makes B&C. I don't much like bear meat. All is why I have little desire to shoot more bears, although it means I have to forego the hero pics. Unless I find a 7 foot brown or cinnamon, I don't expect to ever shoot another blackie.

I was reading a NY state DEC publication on the black bear in NY. They noted that the oldest bear aged in NY was 42 years of age.

Man, I need to get some of you guys on my Xmas card list! I've got the hankerin' to shoot a bruin...

Pointer I'm thinking of putting this one on my Christmas card for this year...grin

Dober

Mule Deer �

The data you refer to is the very reason I have a pound of Hybrid 100V in the loading room. Like you, I�ve not had a chance to try it.

Just let me know when you need my address.

MD, you've broken my heart ! I went to a .25-284 in a custom rifle simply so I could reach those magic numbers with those special, magic bullets......
Now I wish I'd done a Bob. E

Harry Hodgdon called me last Friday and said it was a misprint. Revision in the works.

I feel the same about everything I've hunted. Thanks for the bear stuff. I've hunted bears exactly 2 times. Both in Ontario and both over bait. I've yet to connect on a really big bear (my best was a 150lb bear, I was 14 at the time so it's a special memory for me).

Friend of mine scored a bear tag this year in WI. That should help me get over wanting to do another bear hunt. (not likely)

Karnis,

That Harry. He's always a little late with his "revisions"....

Something doesn't sound right there E.........

Weird... I just had this conversation with a millwright at work. He and I always get into Bears in NW Montana in the Spring and Fall. The country I hunt, I'm going to say 2/3rds are color phase, and the third that are straight up East Coast jet black, textbook Black Bears are sows with cubs.

When BGG and Deflave rolled into town, one of the first things I told them was "don't look at the colors, look at the features" Sure enough, the one they let skamper off was a Neopolotin, Faux Griz... I've had it happen to myself as well... A year ago today, I let the biggest blonde topped, cinnimon bear I've ever seen walk on by. I was positive it was a griz, until he turned broadside and walked out of my life forever

I'm pretty sure that my neck of the woods is why Montana started the Bear ID test....

Its worth mentioning, that I HAVE seen color phase Grizzlies too [WTF?]

My impression is that in drier areas you get more variety in bear colours. Wet areas tend to straight black.

I suspect it has more to do with the gene pool in a particular area than climate. Around our place (pretty darn dry)the black bears are black. Black enough that I was going to assault the one in my yard one night with a Loisville Slugger in the mistaken belief it was a black angus cow (after making a positive ID, I retreated and left it up to the dogs)! Along the divide, just to the east, most are black but a lot have the white "V" on the chest. When we lived up the North Thompson, it seemed like close to a third were brown. I'll have to ask Lay what he thinks. He's shot more bears than most of us have seen and over a large and varied geographic area so may have a theory.
On the high speed 257 Roberts. I've always thought it made little sense that a 6mm Remington could do 3150 or better with a 100 grain bullet while the 257 Roberts was limited to 3000 at best. Like wise, if I can push 120's to 3000 from my 6.5x55 ( and I can), it's logical to think the 257 would come close to the same. GD

Mule Deer..are you sure you have not conspired with the powder and bullet companies for kick-backs..??
I went to Cabelas this morning to buy shorts,sandals and a big hat....
came home with two boxes of bullets,RL-17,HV100 and another .22!! oh and the shorts don't fit!!
This is getting out of hand....LMAO

For JB or any one else that can give a satisfactory answer...

Is my 722 considered a modern and stout enough action to load "+P" pressures? Or is it rifles like it that caused ammo manufactures to hesitate loading the Bob to its potential for all those years?

Your 722 is strong enough to load whatever you want. It is every bit as strong as a 700. GD

That's impressive. And I've been kicking around the idea of re-barreling my unused 7-08 to a 257 bob. Those were the velocities I was getting from my 25-06 years ago with a 120 gr.

I have owned and shot the 257 Rbts for nearly 30 years now. One of my best friends and hunting buddies had several 6.5x55's (Rest his soul)

I have shot more game with 117g bullets from the Rbts then all others. Reason is simple. The 117g were the MOST accurate bullets for my rifles. The powder was H4831 and Vel was around 2650 fps.

My longest shot on Big game of any type (this case a whitetail) was with this load. I found out long ago speed is of no use if you can not place it where you want it. It was at apx 215 yrds and a neck shoot as the deer where in tall grass hiding the body area.

My hunting partner made shots like I did and I could not really tell any difference between the Sweede and Roberts in the field. Both shot very accurately and both put the animals down. We both hunted Black bear with them and each of us were lucky enough to each get a bear, different years and times though. Both the Sweede and Roberts did full penetration on blackies, but neither of us did shoulder shots but rather both were low rib shoots and both left good blood trails. Both the Sweede and Roberts are easy on the shoulder and if you reload, easy on the budget as well. The real difference between the two is the twist, and as a rule the Sweede favors higher SD bullets and the Roberts does well with lower SD bullets. Yet in the middle ground of bullets (100 to 120 grains) they seem to be like peas in a pod.

Good to know that the modern and newer powders are adding even more to both of these wonderful rounds, and the premium bullets as well. If you have either, I would suggest go forth and shot and enjoy, be it paper or game or vermin. Both are great fun and effective and easy to use.